Indian Summers - General Discussion

[stanleyk]

I just want to understand why they are still doing 'the Grizzly bear'?? 10 or so years after Thomas first showed us how it's done in 1912 or so?

 

I thought that was kind of the point, no? That they're in a bit of a backwater, divorced from the fashionable (Western) world. I don't recall the exact words, but she said something to the effect that the dance was terribly out-of-date and (to make it worse) they were doing it wrong anyway.

[magdalene]

I find it kind odd that this Channel 4 (known for more edgy fare I guess) series ended up on PBS. It's not "cozy" in the slightest. I'll be curious to see whether I will eventually like any of those characters.

[howiveaddict]

My theory is that Alice and Ralph had another sib that Ralph maybe killed as a child.  That is why Alice was sent away and Ralph kept at home, so his parents could keep an eye on him.  The old guy that shot Ralph, worked for his family at the time.  Maybe saw the cover up. Maybe Ralph killed someone else too, the shooter's family member or child.  He came back at this time to protect Alice from her brother.  Funny that Alice totally blocked out her early child hood.  It had to be something really traumatic.  I think also that incest is involved.

Why is the club lady so anxious to marry Ralph off?  My guess is so he will stay away from his sister.

[Constantinople]

I just want to understand why they are still doing 'the Grizzly bear'?? 10 or so years after Thomas first showed us how it's done in 1912 or so?

 

 

I thought that was kind of the point, no? That they're in a bit of a backwater, divorced from the fashionable (Western) world. I don't recall the exact words, but she said something to the effect that the dance was terribly out-of-date and (to make it worse) they were doing it wrong anyway.

But how much of a backwater could it really be?

Simla is the summer capital of British India, the "Jewel in the Crown", to coin a phrase, of a colonial empire that covered almost a quarter of the Earth's land mass. "As long as we rule India, we are the greatest power in the world. If we lose it, we shall drop straight away to a third-rate Power" - Lord Curzon, Viceroy of India, 1899-1905.

After all, in the first episode, Cynthia told Ralph about a conversation that occurred in London the week before (though that seems absurdly fast).

[Milz]

I agree with Constantinople. As the "summer residence" of the government, it wouldn't be a "backwater". Especially when there was a constant flux of colonials coming from home and going back to home.  And this is the 1930s, not the 1830s. There were railroads, newspapers, telegraphs, cinemas, etc.

 

 

 

Why is the club lady so anxious to marry Ralph off?  My guess is so he will stay away from his sister.

 

Either Ralph is a closet homosexual OR she and Ralph are lovers which would be viewed as scandalous and completely ruin his political career (never mind he isn't a peer, never mind he wasn't educated in the UK , never mind he isn't part of the "old boys club" in London).

[M. Darcy]

It just occurred to me that naming the brother and sister Ralph and Alice is just silly - that's the couple from the Honeymooners! 

[Milz]

It just occurred to me that naming the brother and sister Ralph and Alice is just silly - that's the couple from the Honeymooners! 

 

Especially when they pronounce "Ralph" like Americans do.

[magdalene]

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/apr/17/indian-summers-gorgeous-ambitious-epic-have-you-been-watching

 

Looks like things will be picking up if one manages to stay with it.

[izabella]

I love the lush landscape and bright colors.  This is such a beautiful production!

 

Did they say what happened to Alice and Ralph's parents?  i assumed they are dead, but didn't catch how they died.

 

I agree there's a lot of mystery, but the series just started so I wouldn't expect to know what's going on just yet.  I like that about the show.  I'm very curious about what caused the parents to send Alice away to boarding school.  Why did she never see them again? 

[lucindabelle]

It seemed clear from the were in a hole line that Ralph knew his attacker. I'm intrigued.

And frankly about time he saw the or value in aafrin taking a bullet for him.

Ralph's attitude to his assistant did seem kind of like they were lovers but I'm getting a bi vibe from him.

Definitely someth ng going on with Cynthia.

Im very intrigued and love the show.

[ComeWhatMay]

Yeah, this, plus he's pinging my gaydar pretty hard. And yet he seemed enthusiastic with Maddy, so maybe he's DTF with anyone anytime? (Lovely cheekbones, any way you slice it.)

DTF with anyone, anytime is my guess. I wouldn't mind myself. HLH is past handsome into pretty land & the camera loves him -- loved the shot of him exiting the chair in his polo threads. Charmers like that open locked doors with the flick of a wrist.

Ralph to me is the classic bad boy & I want the better angels to win out. Great casting in a period piece like this especially. I think the casting folks nailed it across the board actually.

The dynamic with Ralph & Alice is quite fascinating & made me think of Flowers in the Attic. Save Alice's baby, they are all each other seems to have in the world. Cynthia is abominable & Madeleine feels like an extended jump off even though I like her. The intensity of feeling makes sense, is nice & helps to humanize Ralph as he plays everyone else around him.

Alice's entitlement is less grating when I remember it's 1932. Sooni's "that's different" attitude too.

Glad for the history lesson & wisteria for the win. So far, I want them all to be okay in some way in the end -- "They'll have to kill me first" Ralph -- except for Cynthia who I think should just burn even now.

I'm in for the duration when the Raj exits. A great grandfather was a dragoon in India in the early nineteenth century & I prefer truth to in The Guardian's words a "lemonade & parasol fantasy."

[magdalene]

There was a moment before his attacker beat the crap out of him where Ralph touched him - with what looked like affection to me.  That intrigued and puzzled me. The actor playing Ralph has a great period look, he looks very believably of the time period.

[lucindabelle]

What was in that paper?????? What?????

Fascinating.

The British fair play from dad made me sad. I mean it is but its not what he thinks. Ralph should have done all that for aafrin from the start.

Tough luck on the old clerk though.

Ralph seemed awfully inteested in adam. His son?

[Pickles]

Is Adam Ralph's son and was the shooter Adam's grandfather?

[JudyObscure]

That's what I'm guessing and that the document Aafrin stole was a birth certificate.

 

What I couldn't understand at all was whether or not, "He shouted, British Devil."  was what Alice and Aafrin were supposed to say, or whether they were asked to keep silent, or what and why?

 

I'm glad to see the Viceroy is coming, that's one of my favorite actors.  I always call him Casaubon because I first saw him in "Middlemarch," but he was last seen in, "The Paradise," as Lord Denning.

[lucindabelle]

I think what he shouted was devil. The British devil thing was an addition to make it seem like terrorism.

We know adam is a half caste so it would make sense. But why did he have no name? Where was his mother?

Why would adams birth certificate be there? I guess the grandfather could have been carrying it. Though wouldn't you think he'd wnt ralph to help him? How would killing him help the boy? Unless he thought the boy were dead already.

Why did he missionary tell his wife it's over right after kissing leena?

[Marianne]

I think Aafrin stole the document that Ralph had forged.  It purports to be the record of the dead shooter's membership in the Congress Party.  They're trying to make the shooting look like terrorism, when it appears that it was actually personal.

 

My closed captioning during the scene between Ralph and Alice and Aafrin (the day he went for drinks) indicated that Ralph flashed back to the shooter calling him a devil but also calling him by his first name, thus showing that he was familiar with Ralph.

[magdalene]

I agree that Adam is Ralph's son.  But would that really be enough to ruin his career? Haven't white men in position of power had children outside of marriage with their mistresses since time began?

[Constantinople]

I was disappointed Alice told the investigator that Chandru Mohan yelled "British Devil" at Ralph while trying to shoot him.  I know Alice's late, beloved husband would have approved when Alice initially told Ralph that she wouldn't lie for him to avoid awkward questions.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Constantinople

[JudyObscure]

Thanks, all, for helping me figure out what's going on.

 

I think the actress playing Alice needs to tone down the hate face when she's talking to someone she doesn't like.  I thought she was going to kill Cynthia.

[SFoster21]

Why would a beautiful girl like Leena go near that boring ugly guy? Makes no sense to me.

How is Adam Ralph's child? Ralph doesn't even like girls.

[magdalene]

What makes you think he doesn't like women? He is been having sex with the American woman and there is a sexual vibe with his own sister.

[wellread]

The terrorist called Ralph by his full name and said he was a devil.  That would make the motive for the shooting sound personal, as borne out by the scenes in the jail between Ralph and the shooter, and would make it harder for Ralph to sell the shooting as a terrorist incident.  I think when the truth comes out, that it will be darker and more twisted than a simple case of a colonial having a child by a native mistress.

[lucindabelle]

I think Alice said "British devil" because Ralph was being nice.

Cynthia used the wrong tactics with her. When Ralph told her to do what she thught best it made her think, she wanted to protect her brother.

 

yes I hope the scandal is worse than just seducing some girl and abandoning the child. I mean, that's not good, but it doesn't rise to the huge level of corruption they're hinting at.

[ComeWhatMay]

While I think Sarah is a shrew, I'm not sure I want much more for the Dougie I've seen. It's one of those cases where I pity the child (Matthew in this case) saddled with the two of them.

Leena is much too good to be moping around about unhappily married Dougie. Dougie behaving as though he is martyring himself with his marriage is not attractive at all. Writers, there is too much pretty on the canvas to saddle Leena with Dougie. Come on. 

 

My take on Cynthia after this episode is that she wants Ralph to be ruthlessly ambitious & cunning -- which he certainly has the capacity to be & for Ralph to give over entirely to those facets of his personality. Smart, ambitious & handsome, I can see why an evil woman such as Cynthia would take to him. No doubt she saw his potential early knowing Ralph & Alice as children. It would be my supposition that she seeks to remove what good there is in Ralph's life to make him behave entirely as she desires. I would not be surprised to learn Cynthia had a hand in Alice & Ralph's separation as children, for instance.

I do like Madeleine so I hope Ralph is shown to develop genuine feeling for her outside of great sex & her bank account to help support his deluxe life. Alice is really not an appropriate match for him given the whole sister thing & all:-)

 

I liked Madeleine even more when she gave her WTF look to happy, laughing & insidiously racist Ronnie when he was making racist remarks about the children at the fair. Ralph was something during that scene too/did not look happy about it & I loved that he played with the kids after settling things with Alice. The possibilities with Adam are intriguing & the attempted assassination was definitely personal. Ralph let Mohan beat on him as though he knew he deserved it. 

Angry, scowling & utterly vile racist Cynthia thinks it's Sood's fault Armitage is a vegetable when Armitage is the one who attacked Sood in full view of everyone? Cynthia, you totally suck, get lost. It's all different for these characters without that foul woman around I'll be saying the whole run I bet.  

[JudyObscure]

What makes you think he doesn't like women? He is been having sex with the American woman and there is a sexual vibe with his own sister.

 

Plus Madeline told her brother that he had been absolutely wild about her in the beginning so she couldn't understand why he had cooled toward her.  No I don't think he's gay at all, just ruthless.  Cynthia is racist and evil. Sarah is neurotic and hysterical. Dougie is morose and homely. Alice gets all squint eyed and curled lip, like a snotty teenager.  I don't really like anyone but Aafrin's little sister and Adam.

[AuntiePam]

Dougie's no George Clooney, but he's got a vibe, a presence.  I won't say he smolders, but he does flicker a bit. 

 

Any idea why Alice wears her hair down?  It's gotta be hot on her neck, and everyone else has their hair rolled up. 

[magdalene]

Plus Madeline told her brother that he had been absolutely wild about her in the beginning so she couldn't understand why he had cooled toward her.  No I don't think he's gay at all, just ruthless.  Cynthia is racist and evil. Sarah is neurotic and hysterical. Dougie is morose and homely. Alice gets all squint eyed and curled lip, like a snotty teenager.  I don't really like anyone but Aafrin's little sister and Adam.

Nods. I think Ralphie's scheming has distracted him from his affair with Madeline. Cynthia is awful - Julie Walters is totally playing against her usual type there. I feel sorry for Sarah but dislike her at the same time. I have zero sympathy for Dougie - I don't like cheaters. And Aafrin is not exactly making me root for him either.

 

I agree with the post up thread about the gorgeous look of the series - such beautiful and vivid colors.

[attica]

I think Aafrin stole the document that Ralph had forged.

 

Yes, we got a shot of it. It was the document 'proving' the shooter was part of the anti-Raj faction. Aafrin's sister told him earlier that nobody from his hometown could confirm such a thing, so when he saw the form in the file, he knew it was bogus. He took it to give the authorities one less bit of evidence, despite his own perjury.

[AuntiePam]

 

He took it to give the authorities one less bit of evidence, despite his own perjury.

 

I thought he put the forged document back in the folder. 

[lucindabelle]

Also I did like Ralph saying that the crackdown seemed a little severe. I mean hw as easily persuaded but I do think he's not a sadisr.

[Kitla]

That's what I'm guessing and that the document Aafrin stole was a birth certificate.

 

What I couldn't understand at all was whether or not, "He shouted, British Devil."  was what Alice and Aafrin were supposed to say, or whether they were asked to keep silent, or what and why?

 

I'm glad to see the Viceroy is coming, that's one of my favorite actors.  I always call him Casaubon because I first saw him in "Middlemarch," but he was last seen in, "The Paradise," as Lord Denning.

The stolen paper was the fake Congress Party membership document the authorities claim to have found on the attacker (I could read it on my TV screen).  Aafrin may be planning to use it to discredit their claim that the attack was terrorism by the Congress Party.   And Alice and Aafrin were supposed to say the attacker shouted "you British devil" in order to make it look like it was a political attack motivated by anti-British resentment, when in fact the guy actually said, "Ralphie sah!  Rakshah, rakshah (devil, devil)". It was clearly a personal attack by someone who knew him -- I'm guessing it has something to do with the boy Adam.  Ralph looked very closely at a bracelet the boy was wearing.  Adam is probably Ralph illegitimate child and maybe Adam's mother was the attack

er's daughter..

I was disappointed Alice told the investigator that Chandru Mohan yelled "British Devil" at Ralph while trying to shoot him.  I know Alice's late, beloved husband would have approved when Alice initially told Ralph that she wouldn't lie for him to avoid awkward questions.

 

I don't understand this.  Alice doesn't have a "late, beloved husband."

[magdalene]

 

I don't understand this.  Alice doesn't have a "late, beloved husband."

Me neither.  I thought she just left her husband. He is not "late", he is in England. And maybe not so beloved?

And how would we know what he would approve of or not.

Edited October 13, 2015 by magdalene

[feverfew]

Me neither.  I thought she just left her husband. He is not "late", he is in England. And maybe not so beloved?

And how would we know what he would approve of or not.

I think Constantinople was being sarcastic, as in "Alice asked Ralph to lie for her but she wouldn't lie for him". Obviously Alice's husband is alive and well in England, but she has convinced people - with the help of her brother - that he's dead to avoid awkward questions ;)

[JudyObscure]

Yes, "late beloved," was sarcastic.  Alice is quick to judge everyone but herself.

Ralph looked very closely at a bracelet the boy was wearing.

Now see, I watched that twice and only thought Ralph was staring at Adam's light skin. Thanks you for pointing out the bracelet, Kitla. 

 

I would be lost without this forum.

[Kitla]

I think Constantinople was being sarcastic, as in "Alice asked Ralph to lie for her but she wouldn't lie for him". Obviously Alice's husband is alive and well in England, but she has convinced people - with the help of her brother - that he's dead to avoid awkward questions ;)

Ah, that makes sense now.

[Constantinople]

Yes, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

 

Of course, lying under oath about what Chandru Mohan yelled while shooting at Ralph and hitting Aafrin is different than lying (not under oath) about Alice's husband being dead. But lying about her husband's death seems so pointless, it suggests that Alice doesn't have any particular committment to the truth.

 

I say pointless because I don't understand why Alice feels the need to lie and claim her husband is dead.  Hers wouldn't be the first upper class marriage in which the parties separated but didn't divorce.  The distance of their separation might be greater than normal, but even if they weren't separated, would it be so odd for Alice to visit? She hasn't seen her brother in 20(?) years and Ralph has never seen his nephew.

 

I also don't understand how Alice expects her lie to hold-up over time.  She's the sister of the Viceroy's private secretary living in the summer capital of British India.  She's not some obscure person living in some remote part of India.  Sooner or later someone will find out (Sarah's already trying).  When they do, they might wonder what's so weird about Alice or her husband that she feels the need to pretend he's dead.

[SFoster21]

What makes you think he doesn't like women? He is been having sex with the American woman and there is a sexual vibe with his own sister.

He had sex with her after being caressed in his bath by the male servant. And it was just sex. Many people swing both ways depending on circumstance. Also, the way his head was cradled by the servant after his beating. There is more of a "loving" vibe when he interacts with men. I think that it may be more likely that the hinted at scandal involves homosexuality, a crime in GB at that time.

Just my opinion; others are free to disagree.

[Marianne]

I thought he put the forged document back in the folder. 

He ran home with it and put it in a box within a locked box and hid it in his room.

[AuntiePam]

 

He ran home with it and put it in a box within a locked box and hid it in his room.

 

Oh right.  I forgot that he put something in the box.  Was it the forgery or was it the shooter's identification card, the little booklet that looked like a passport?

[Milz]

He ran home with it and put it in a box within a locked box and hid it in his room.

 

That's because the last place anyone would look for a stolen document is in a locked box underneath one's bed/sofa......

 

I can't figure out why Sooni was arrested when she wasn't doing anything. Okay, okay, she did tell the police to lay off her sister---who wasn't doing anything either. But it didn't make sense that out of all the women standing there, Sooni is arrested.

[magdalene]

 

I also don't understand how Alice expects her lie to hold-up over time.  She's the sister of the Viceroy's private secretary living in the summer capital of British India.  She's not some obscure person living in some remote part of India.  Sooner or later someone will find out (Sarah's already trying).  When they do, they might wonder what's so weird about Alice or her husband that she feels the need to pretend he's dead.

It's a head scratcher.  If this was a soap opera "dead" hubby would come after her and show up any day now.

 

Another thing she did that made me question her common sense and intelligence was to visit Aafrin's home uninvited and put his family on the spot.  That seemed quite tone deaf to me. 

[ComeWhatMay]

It's a head scratcher.  If this was a soap opera "dead" hubby would come after her and show up any day now.

 

Another thing she did that made me question her common sense and intelligence was to visit Aafrin's home uninvited and put his family on the spot.  That seemed quite tone deaf to me. 

 

I suspect we will see Alice's husband; if not this series -- then the next one. Plenty of soap around these parts in & out of Ralph's bathtub after all:-) 

 

Alice told Ralph in the premiere that she had "made such a mess of things." I think Alice is written as a combination of sheltered & impulsive -- but minus guile/malice, i.e. unintentionally thoughtless. Upper class woman in the early 30's? Very believable, I think. Even in the letter Alice wrote to her husband, who I have no doubt she was right to bail on, Alice seemed to truly think she could beg him off coming after her. If he's like I think he is, its very sheltered & naive to think the guy will let you -- & frankly moreso his son -- just go without a fight. 

I hope the writers smarten Alice up as we go & make her a lot more street smart & sensitive.

[Constantinople]

A number of people have speculated that Adam may be Ralph's son, and that Chandru Mohan may even be Adam's maternal grandmother.

If so, I hope they explain at some point why Chandru Mohan tried to shoot Ralph and why he tried to shoot him now. I don't know how old Adam is, but it's obviously been several years since he was born. If Chandru Mohan shot Ralph out of some kind of revenge for "defiling" his daughter, why did Chandru wait all this time?

 

We know adam is a half caste so it would make sense. But why did he have no name? Where was his mother?

Why would adams birth certificate be there? I guess the grandfather could have been carrying it. Though wouldn't you think he'd wnt ralph to help him? How would killing him help the boy? Unless he thought the boy were dead already.

I too think that Chandru would want Ralph to help Adam, so Chandru thinking that Adam is already dead is a good idea.

It's also possible that Chandru didn't care for Adam, either because Adam is mixed race or because Adam is illegitimate, or both. It's not as if the kids in the village where we first see Adam were terribly thrilled with him. But if Chandru didn't care for Adam, why not shoot Ralph years ago?

Or perhaps Chandru shot at Ralph because Chandru felt Ralph wasn't doing enough, or perhaps not doing anything, to take care of Adam.

Or perhaps Ralph isn't Adam's father but Adam is the same age as a child that Ralph had with an Indian woman, so Adam reminds Ralph of the child. Perhaps Chandru had a young wife that Ralph seduced and impregnated, the wife and child died in childbirth and it's just taken this long for Chandru to track down Ralph.

I don't know.

[magdalene]

That's because the last place anyone would look for a stolen document is in a locked box underneath one's bed/sofa......

 

I can't figure out why Sooni was arrested when she wasn't doing anything. Okay, okay, she did tell the police to lay off her sister---who wasn't doing anything either. But it didn't make sense that out of all the women standing there, Sooni is arrested.

Wasn't there a British rule in India at that time that crowds were not allowed to gather like this and protest? So the two women would have already broken that rule by just being present during the demonstration.

[LaChavalina]

Wasn't there a British rule in India at that time that crowds were not allowed to gather like this and protest? So the two women would have already broken that rule by just being present during the demonstration.

There was a scene toward the beginning where a British officer (police or military, not sure) comes to Ralph and complains about a gathering at the bazaar. The officer proposes some action to break up the crowd. Ralph says something along the lines of, "that's a bit drastic, isn't it?" and the officer suggests that they can't be too careful given what happened to Ralph. So, we're meant to think the police went in with batons raised to break up a peaceful demonstration. I think the other women in the prison with Sooni were also scooped up just for being in the crowd.

[AuntiePam]

Why is Ralph protecting Aifrin?  All Aifrin knows is that Chandru knew Ralph's name.  As others have said, if Chandru shot Ralph for personal reasons -- such as impregnating his daughter -- which we don't know yet -- well, it's a given that colonizers do stuff like that and nobody cares. 

 

It's possible, but not likely, that the man who found the document decided not to turn it over to the British, but we were given no hint of that. 

 

I wish Alice had stood up for herself with Cynthia (is that her name?).  Alice's position insulates her from ostracizm.  People will be friends with her no matter what she's done. 

[magdalene]

I think Ralphie has the document back and knows that Aafrin took it but is protecting him out of a combination of wanting to make further use of him, feeling some obligation because Aafrin took the bullet meant for him, and liking him on some level.

 

Weren't Ralphie's golf clothes awesomely ridiculous? But then he looked so good later at the party for the Viceroy.

[lucindabelle]

I was really glad aafrin missed the ball. On TV people are always playing 18 holes of golf with no lesson and no practices in reality theyd miss, hit the earth, etc.

My first thought was he officers ddint want to find that letter in an Indian residence bc they were indian too, but who knows.

I like the scottish kid. I like that he didn't even argue when people called him irish last week.

Sita!!! I thought you loved aafrin? Wouldn't you think your love for him would make you follow through? Bec Heaven knows if they'd found th document aafrin was going down.

Mama at the end of the episode. Was not expecting th at.

[Constantinople]

I don't know what the going rate is for bribing someone to commit perjury in 1930s British India, but Ralph does seem to be overdoing it a bit with Aafrin.  Wasn't making him head clerk enough?