S02.E11: Episode 11

[Bugs Meany]

The one I do feel bad for is Cassandra. She got engaged to her baby daddy after Juan Pablo's season, but obviously that didn't work out and she's back on the dating show circuit. She's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier even by the show's standards, but she seems like a very sweet person and I want her to find happiness.

Update on Cassandra:

She's currently with Jonathan (from this season and Kaitlyn's season). Unlike virtually every Bachelor alumni couple, they already live in the same area (Detroit), so they have a better shot at making it work.

[CindyBee]

 

ETA: As for Carly and Kirk, I sympathized with her. Not that she wasn't OTT about their future, but it would be a very bad feeling to be cuddling and disclosing feelings and being convinced he felt the same--no hint given to the contrary while she's making a fool of herself to the others and the cameras, gushing about their relationship etc. I think he was completely wrong to let her go on like that, especially on television. Then the breakup was stupid, like "No, don't make me look bad!" I don't think she was wrong to not want to bother with him afterwards.

 

I was surprised how badly I felt for Carly and how Kirk seemed to make the break up all about him.   And it does seem like he led her on way more than he should have.   That's a shame for both of them.   

[mertensia]

Oh- I forgot to say how annoying I found Jade's "I gave Kirk permission to ask Carly out" comment to be. They're adults not your damned kids! They don't need permission from you and seriously why is this your guilt to take on?

Also I have come to the conclusion that these dimwits think love is instantaneous like Impressing a dragon in the Pern books.

Maybe Kirk said "uh-uh no way ain't happening" when Carly burst into song .

[DEL901]

Kirk may have waiting too long to have this conversation, but at least he did it before they spent another day and night together

 

Considering they had been together less than 20 days, he didn't wait that long.  Add to that the fact that he tried a couple of episodes ago to slow it down but chickened out when she didn't react well to the first part of what he was trying to tell her... I guess he decided to go with the flow.  And then you add in the comments about children, the singing about love and the pressure from Chris Harrison to be sure and another overnight date coming up after which the slow-down conversation would have been impossible... 

 

And I honestly don't think he was trying to break it off ...  I think he wanted to slow things down but the conversation didn't go as he expected and he started panicking/ rambling.

 

I also think it was harder for Carly because she got caught up in thinking  of her and Jade as the "smug marrieds" (tm Bridget Jones).  It was only a couple of weeks, but unlike with Chris where she was always the +1 in the rose ceremonies, this time, she was one of the cool kids with Jade.  She's spent the whole show giving condescending talking heads.... which, I think were filmed after the fact because her eyebrows were fading.

Edited September 7, 2015 by DEL901

[seacliffsal]

There always seemed to be red flags in the Carly/Kirk relationship. Before their one date Carly talked about how she just wanted to jump his bones and that she had been droping hints about having sex, etc. On that date Kirk did express the concern about slowing down their relationship, but then went ahead with their own fantasy suite. I just don't understand why so many of these men make half-hearted attempts to slow down or break up (Kirk, Jared, etc.) but then just continue on. Maybe the producers promise them bonus pay or something. I agree with those who have mentioned that talking about marriage and kids with someone who is not at that same point will crash and burn a relationship. I also think that Carly was super invested as she was trying to justify missing her brother's wedding. No matter how 'okay' people may be about missing a wedding, there had to be some carry over feelings about it. Carly seems to be close to her brother (didn't he appear first in the franchise and therefore probably helped her get onto the Bachelor).

I like Cassandra and liked her on JP's season. I wish she had come in earlier. But maybe she only agreed to leave her child for a liminted amount of time.

Oh, and Juelia? Your objective should not be to find a father for your child. I so wish she had left episodes ago. Her victimhood and the support from the others for her victimhood was just too much.

[vendredi3]

I cringed at Jared's line, "She's not suffering anymore." Geesh, you're not putting down a pet, dude.

[Primetimer]

A bunch of Bachelor In Paradise contestants self-deport; plus, lots of tears.

Read the story

[MsPH]

Kirk is just the worst kind of guy: A coward. I just can't stand cowardly guys, who take the path of least resistance until they have no choice and then blindside you and feel sorry for themselves for having to be "the bad guy". Just man up and say how you feel, when you feel it! He was having doubts about Carly before their overnight date already, yet went ahead and had sex with her anyway and raved about her being like a pinball machine (Ick). It's not like he wasn't aware of how seriously she was taking their relationship, since she called her brother in front of him and told him she was on a date with a cute guy, so it's all good missing his wedding. He knew well before any kids talk that she was taking things seriously and they were talking about the future. Why not speak up at some point during that? And I don't think it's totally crazy to think you've found The One after 3 weeks of being together 24/7. I mean Marcus and Lacey got engaged and look at them now! All it takes is both people being on the same page. Kirk obviously wasn't, but let Carly think he was. That's on him.

 

I also hated how he told the other guys before he told her, like he was testing the waters and hoping for some encouragement and sympathy. And how he told them she'd talked about having his kids. Then he started his speech saying something about coming there thinking he'd have a summer fling and would be able to wash his hands off it once it's over... Um what? So he was never hoping to find anything serious, yet kept stringing along a girl who was? Jerk. Then he kept wanting to explain himself, even though she got the message loud and clear, just to make himself feel better. Ugh, what a weasel.

 

I thought it was really sweet how upset Jade was for Carly. She's a good friend.

 

I was shocked Juelia actually felt something for Mikey. I thought she was just using him to stick around, but seems she can transfer her feelings onto anyone half-willing. Talk about desperate. Mikey isn't any better though, sticking around all happy and trying to hook a random woman at the last minute. Just go home, dude, holiday's over! 

 

Dan is another weasel. How many times did he change his mind about who he wants? He's clearly one of those guys who are on a date with a girl and then nearly break their neck when a hotter girl walks past. He's always looking for something better. Good luck with that, Dan! Protip: You're not getting any younger.

[jackjill89]

I missed a bit of the show last night -- I take it Ashley I's V card is still intact, correct? She was completely deluded about her "relationship" with Jared. He broke up with you already. Remember? Jared is too much of a nice guy, or a complete wuss to say no to the overnight. Don't give the girl any hope! Although, for Ashley, looking in her direction was giving her hope. 

 

I think Kirk summed up the men's vision of BiP experience -- it's like adult summer camp and you might hook up with someone. The women tend to view it as a place to find true love. Shocker. In the bubble that is BiP I don't think he was horrible to Carly…except that he should have slowed her down either when she was having the babies talk or before giving her the rose. Bad, bad, bad timing. 

[Wings]

Kirk and Carly hung out and slept in the same bed the entire time (20 days?).  Many people fall in love within that time frame.  I don't find it odd that Carly became attached and had dreams of their relationship continuing further.   She did miss some red flags, the main one was his reluctance to be more open and vulnerable with her.  The simultaneous truth is that men take more time to do that and it doesn't mean they are not into you.  

 

Good for you Carly!  You recognized that Kirk's need to talk to you more was all about making himself feel better.  It takes strength to do that!  The heart usually wants to see if there is a crack they can use to change their mind.  

 

"I am here, I am here!"  How totally sweet and loving.  Good friends she has in Jade and Tenely.   

 

I like Carly.  She needs a makeover to make it in the music business though.  Her hair is a mess and too light.  And of course her eyebrows need to be lighted.  If they are tattooed she needs to darken her hair.  

It seemed that Ashley I got some good counseling from Tenely and maybe others to leave with her head held high.  Good work girls!  

[Nikki55x]

%u201CI encourage people to remember that "no" is a complete sentence.%u201D

%u2015 Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence.

I have never forgotten that statement. Anyone who disregards your No is trying to control you, anyone who disregards what you say to them has and agenda and you should ask yourself what that agenda is.

Carly told Kirk many, many times NO. Get away from me. Men need to learn that No does not mean try harder, it does not mean I want to do what I want to do regardless of your desires. It is a statement. Anyone who cannot except your statement has no respect for you and are just thinking about their needs or wants at the time.

Kirk wanted what Kirk wanted. Oh Carly you deserve an explanation, I'm not going to let you just leave like this. Me, me, me. Kirk did not truly care what Carly wanted at that point which was to be left alone. It was the true sign of a wishy-washy narcissistic a manipulator of the highest form.

[TheFinalRose]

I think a great percentage of Carly's angst has to be because she knew she had filmed all those talking heads gushing about Kirk and their future, how great it was to be secure at every rose ceremony, and she knew that it was all going to be used against her.  I think Carly was more than willing, in both of her rounds of Bachelor-related appearances, to give the producers what they wanted in her sound bites.  "You want me to say Britt is fake? How much time do we have and how many different ways do you want me to say it?" "You want me to be absolutely giddy about Kirk? I'll be giddy nonstop and never stop to wonder how much I really know this guy or the fact that there are a lot of ulterior motives for people to couple up on this show besides twu luv." 

 

I think Carly really got seduced by her greek chorus role on Chris' season, and she enjoyed being the witty snarky one. So when time came to be the lucky one on BIP, she was more than happy to revel in that. Notice that there are not the same amount of corresponding gushing moments from Jade or from Tanner or Tenley or Josh ... they didn't throw caution to the wind. Now thinking back on that very low-key conversation between Jade and Tanner on their date, when they were each trying to hint to the other that they were into each other, but also acknowledging and that same time that there was a high "see what happens" factor to the whole setup, you can see in contrast how wildly over-reaching Carly was regarding Kirk.

 

I do think that the dog-years (very cute way to describe this set up by the way) aspect of Paradise amps up the intensity, HOWEVER, Kirk saw lots of break-ups going on, so if he felt he knew he had to break up earlier he should have known he was in good company. What always stood out to me was the way Carly globbed onto Kirk from the first introductory conversation they had on Episode 1. I think there was a high degree of desperation in her, as she did not really want to risk being part of the girl pool and subject to rejection again after being the plus 1 on Chris' season.  I wonder how much of her giddiness was Kirk himself or the fact that she didn't have to put herself through all that anxiety of the rose ceremony every week, and that she could kick back and have a good time.

 

 

[mertensia]

I don't thnk he's a manipulator ; I think he was playing to the camera and perhaps a little tone deaf when it comes to cues.

[JudyObscure]

I'm glad to read everyone's take on the Carly/Kirk break-up because I was just befuddled by it last night. I was sorry to see Carly in pain but I could so easily see how she set herself up for the whole thing. I've done a whole lot of dating in my life and never been blindsided like that because I would never be so freakin' blind, Carly. Kirk wasn't that interested in the fantasy suite date, you said you would rave about the wonderfulness of him and the relationship and he would say nothing in return. I know times have changed but I would wait for a man to say he loved me before telling everyone how locked together we were and I would wait for a proposal before talking about moving closer and saying things like "I picture us having kids together." Hold on, sugar!

I agree that time is different in Paradise and the couples may spend more hours together in a week there than in two months of normal twice a week four hour dates. That can be good and that can be really bad. In real life if Kirk realized he wasn't that into Carly he could have stopped returning her calls immediately and made some, "so busy," excuses to slow things down. Lots of guys don't even feel it's necessary to have a break up conversation with a woman they've only been out with a few times. They just quit calling. I think Kirk really didn't know how to cool things down with Carly when he couldn't physically get away from her. Jared had some of the same problem with Ashley. He had to face her after that letter!

Oh- I forgot to say how annoying I found Jade's "I gave Kirk permission to ask Carly out" comment to be. They're adults not your damned kids! They don't need permission from you and seriously why is this your guilt to take on?

Even the, "I'm here!" seemed oddly maternal to me. All the "I hate him!" about Kirk was weird, too. I don't think he handled it well and his attempts to break-up with Carly but still have her like him were stupid, but he didn't do anything that bad.

Carly's anger vs hurt was curious to me. One minute she loved him enough to marry him and the next she hated him? If I really loved a man, I would have been asking why? What did I do wrong? Can it be fixed? I just don't get, Carly.

[waving feather]

Dan is another weasel. How many times did he change his mind about who he wants? He's clearly one of those guys who are on a date with a girl and then nearly break their neck when a hotter girl walks past. He's always looking for something better. Good luck with that, Dan! Protip: You're not getting any younger.

 

 

Word. It's fine if he found no connections in BiP but I loathed his goodbye speech, addressed to both Ashley S. and Amber. It's just a self ego stroke, trying to show everyone he HAD options but he chose none. That may be true but it shows what kind of character Dan has. Sorry dude, you're not charming enough to pull something like that off.

 

Kirk wanted what Kirk wanted. Oh Carly you deserve an explanation, I'm not going to let you just leave like this. Me, me, me. Kirk did not truly care what Carly wanted at that point which was to be left alone. It was the true sign of a wishy-washy narcissistic a manipulator of the highest form.

 

I cheered when Jade was like "You want me to step in, I will?" when Kirk kept pestering Carly and wouldn't leave her alone after she had said NO umpteen times. You go, Jade. That's a true friend and it's nice to see girls looking out for each other. And how Jade literally ran to meet her halfway at the stairs when Carly came crying.

 

Let me be clear, Kirk was not a jerk for breaking things off with her (11th hour or not, it's his right), but he is a jackass for not leaving it alone and wanting some sort of olive branch from her to make himself feel better. "You deserve a conversation" Are you for real, dude?! If you really care about her even as a friend, you would be able to recognize that she's hurting at the moment and wants to be left alone. His insistent and trying to touch her when she said she didn't want to be touched skeeved me out. What an idiot, indeed, Tenley.

 

Speaking of Tenley, I have a crush on her. Call me, Tenley!

[Wings]

Kirk just postponed a very difficult conversation.  Had he told her earlier, he would have gotten the same response.  I don't think he is a cad for telling her at zero hour, really.  It is difficult to break up with someone and add the TV aspect, I get it.  

 

Then there is this.  He told the men he had known for about 2 weeks but kept changing that to a week.  So maybe he really did know even sooner than that.  If that is the case then he is a cad!  

[waving feather]

Then there is this.  He told the men he had known for about 2 weeks but kept changing that to a week.  So maybe he really did know even sooner than that.

 

Oh, I bet he knew it since before the fantasy suite date they went on together. He was admitting serious doubts then too but just didn't have the courage to do anything about it. But like I said, I don't have a problem with his timing, I do have a problem with how he did it. To me, breakups should be like ripping off a band-aid. Just say what you need to say and leave it alone. Let the other person digest what you said first and let them calm down enough to talk about it (IF they wants to).

[ElectricCityy]

The last thing I want to see is a woman groveling to a man that just dumped her. I'm glad Carly was 100% done with Kirk. What the hell else did he need to talk to her about? Oh yeah, he just wanted her to be understanding so that he could look better. Selfish.

[DEL901]

Has anyone noticed Carly's eyebrows are different in a lot of her talking heads than on the show?  It's almost like they are faded, with a darker line across the top and then lighter shading below?  They are much lighter than when she and Kirk had the "conversation".  I wonder when they were filmed?

[petalfrog]

Oh! How entertaining was Samantha's total disgust while kissing Nick? She was literally wincing while kissing him. I've never seen anything like that, not even when Joe slobbered on Kaitlyn's face. That whole date was embarassing. He must have told her she was gorgeous so many times that she stopped even saying "thank you."

[Dittohead]

I couldn't muster up any sympathy for Carly.  All I could picture in my mind was her absolute, profound joy as Britt sat crying in the driveway after Chris dumped her.   She said something about how happy she was that the prettiest girl in the room had her heart broken.  Sorry, Carly, but you reap what you sow.

[Ketzel]

Oh, Julelalia, I winced for you (in the middle of laughing at the opening credits) each time you made that pinched weasel face and threw a kiss at the camera. You thought Mikey was going to be your daughter's new father? Just go home and be your daughter's old mother, girl. Join Parents Without Partners. If you are ever even slightly tempted to return to the Bachelor franchise, call a therapist.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I couldn't muster up any sympathy for Carly.  All I could picture in my mind was her absolute, profound joy as Britt sat crying in the driveway after Chris dumped her.   She said something about how happy she was that the prettiest girl in the room had her heart broken.  Sorry, Carly, but you reap what you sow.

This times 100.

I've never watched any of the summer shows but read the spoilers on this one so tuned in to see Carly, the chortling mean girl character, get her just desserts. The only thing that would have been better would have been Kirk outlining his thumb and forefinger in lipstick and hand puppeting the bad news plus telling her he really wanted a chance with Samantha before the show ended. His face was the definition of trapped when she was talking about having his babies. I imagine Show kept making him try to talk to her after the breakup as he kep repeating the "have a conversation" line over and over, no personal comments at all. Her immediate angry and embarrassed reaction should tell her she really wasn't that into him. I agree that he seemed to want to talk about slowing it down and she jumped to the breakup--lots of couples break up or slow things down and still end up back together, but she pretty much burned that bridge.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

Many, many people whose faces I will not be missing ... 

 

I was NEVER on the Jared train. I think he looks kinda weaselly and even on Kaitlyn's season I could not get what she saw in him at all ... that said, compared to most of the guys that went the distance I guess I could see why he'd look viable after a little while. Like if you're on a desert island and there's that piece of slightly rotting fruit, you can start to think it looks good in comparison to the driftweed and rocks.

 

I don't remember the last time I saw someone who could have as vastly different appearances based strictly on what she does with her mouth, but Ashley I is unquestionably stunning but once she starts to cry (98.3% of waking hours) her mouth turns into silly putty and she's just scary looking. I did like her super casual look in one of those last sets of talking heads, though. 

 

And I fear that Juelia left the set, I mean the beach, and immediately signed on the dotted line to be the next Bachelorette in which case, really, that's the last straw, right? Maybe her late husband's family could sue for custody of the child.

 

Speaking of children, interesting that the last few BiPpers were single parents ... perhaps they actually had the decency to ask to come late so as to spend less time away from their kids? Or does that make too much sense. Anyway, I'd totally forgotten that Cassandra was Rodney Stuckey's baby mama. Maybe I can use that to convince Mr. Snap to watch the finale with me tonight since he's had Stuckey on his fantasy basketball team for ages. 

 

I also have to admit that it took me a LONG LONG LONG time to come around, but 10ley has finally won me over this season. She really does seem to either have (and I hadn't realized it) or gained a major measure of engaging self-awareness and a sense of humor as well. I think she may actually be my favorite girl on the show now!

 

Finally, for all those teasers we've been getting since Day 1 (and I have stayed totally unspoiled!!! Yay me!!!!) of Tanner not giving Jade a rose, anyone else think it will go something like this?

 

T: I cannot give you a rose.

J: Wha--

T: Because I am dropping down on one knee to present you with this Neil Lane diamond ring!

 

 

[MsPH]

Kirk didn't want to slow things down. He even told the camera that there's nothing Carly can say to change his mind. About dumping her. So she got the message perfectly right. As they say, there's a fine line between love and hate. I think her anger just proved she was in love or close to it.

[roses]

I agree Kirk did not want to slow things down, also didnt he mention how he was ''going to break her heart'' If he wanted to slow things down surely he could have talked about this in the fantasy suite away from the cameras, I think he just wasn't fully invested in the relationship.

Edited September 7, 2015 by roses

[TiredMe]

Kirk behaved like a total dolt. First he was clearly being a coward when we all knew he wanted to break up with her weeks ago. Then trying to force himself on her to talk after the break up. Just bad.

Honestly Carly's comments about babies etc probably just sped up his decision. If he's the one, taking babies ain't scaring him off.

Although Justin was ignorant to break off his date with Jacyln I did chuckle just a bit. She's just such an unpleasant person. But really Cassandra? Justin is hot? I just do not understand all these women going for him. Eww maybe he's better looking in person.

That Nick and Samantha date...so Nick tell me why you like me so much? Gag. She is amazingly practiced though. I find her acting ability Oscar worthy.

Edited September 7, 2015 by TiredMe

[Dittohead]

  Something in Mackenzie's attitude toward Mikey really bothered me.  Here he had just gone out on a limb by trying to give his rose to her, even telling her it was just to see what could/might happen between them, and she tells America that just before he offered the rose, he had been smiling and she just wanted to wipe the smile off his face, because she had no reciprocating feelings for him.  I mean, I can understand not taking the rose and not having the feelings, but to "want to wipe the smile off his face" just seemed a little uncalled for and ungracious. 

  I didn't notice this big smile he supposedly had that seemed to irritate her so much, so I rewound and watched it again.  I never did see this smile, and perhaps it was edited out, but still.  There is no need to belittle him that way.

[backformore]

I'm glad to read everyone's take on the Carly/Kirk break-up because I was just befuddled by it last night. I was sorry to see Carly in pain but I could so easily see how she set herself up for the whole thing. I've done a whole lot of dating in my life and never been blindsided like that because I would never be so freakin' blind, Carly. Kirk wasn't that interested in the fantasy suite date, you said you would rave about the wonderfulness of him and the relationship and he would say nothing in return. I know times have changed but I would wait for a man to say he loved me before telling everyone how locked together we were and I would wait for a proposal before talking about moving closer and saying things like "I picture us having kids together." Hold on, sugar!

I agree that time is different in Paradise and the couples may spend more hours together in a week there than in two months of normal twice a week four hour dates. That can be good and that can be really bad. In real life if Kirk realized he wasn't that into Carly he could have stopped returning her calls immediately and made some, "so busy," excuses to slow things down. Lots of guys don't even feel it's necessary to have a break up conversation with a woman they've only been out with a few times. They just quit calling. I think Kirk really didn't know how to cool things down with Carly when he couldn't physically get away from her. Jared had some of the same problem with Ashley. He had to face her after that letter!

 

Good point!   He didn't really have a chance to get away from her to clear his head, to think about the relationship.   Carly talks A LOT, and Kirk seems like he's the kind of guy who needs to step away from the chattering to figure out his feelings.   Women are raised to talk about their feelings, much more than men are.  A lot of men need time away from a woman to figure out "am I missing her?" 

And yeah, in the "real world", he would work, hang out with friends, talk about the new woman he's dating, and set the pace for the relationship - is it a quick phone call on weekdays, and a Saturday night date?  Or is it constant texting throughout the day about how much you miss each other, followed by spending every minute from Friday to sunday together?  

I don't think Kirk KNEW he was going to break it off weeks ago.   I think he was having lingering doubts, for a while, questioning whether or not this was what he wanted long-term.   And I think when the option was offered to the guys to end the season with a diamond ring and a televised proposal, he realized he wasn't ready for that yet. 

[Wings]

Ashley I has depth, I have seen it in interviews.  She is smart but she does not relax on a date to show who she is, what she knows and what she likes to do in her life.  I would love to see her get some help with this and learn to allow things to unfold with a man.  Don't be focused on if he likes you, take the time to really see if you like him.   Playing hard to get has value.  Men prefer to do the chase.  AND give him something to chase beyond your looks.  

[chocolatine]

  Something in Mackenzie's attitude toward Mikey really bothered me.  Here he had just gone out on a limb by trying to give his rose to her, even telling her it was just to see what could/might happen between them, and she tells America that just before he offered the rose, he had been smiling and she just wanted to wipe the smile off his face, because she had no reciprocating feelings for him.  I mean, I can understand not taking the rose and not having the feelings, but to "want to wipe the smile off his face" just seemed a little uncalled for and ungracious. 

  I didn't notice this big smile he supposedly had that seemed to irritate her so much, so I rewound and watched it again.  I never did see this smile, and perhaps it was edited out, but still.  There is no need to belittle him that way.

 

I don't know. The way he did it as a "grand gesture" without talking to Mackenzie beforehand, like he was the knight in shining armor saving her from the indignity of not getting a rose, was really off-putting to me, so I'm glad she threw it back in his face.

[backformore]

People have different approaches to dating.

Kirk is the type who dips his toe in the water, and wades in gradually, testing the waters for hazards.   Carly throws caution to the wind and dives into the deep water, with a "sink or swim"  attitude.   BiP,  with isolating people on the island, works for Carly's type, not so much for Kirk's.

 

Personal story - my son met his girlfriend in college, their last year.   We met her on the day of graduation.   A few days earlier, he had told us he was "kind of dating"  someone - no other information.  When her parents met him (and us)  her mom gushed "You must be the boyfriend!   we've heard all about you!"  

The first several months after graduation, their different views of the relationship played out, but since they were no longer living on campus, it was easier to slow down the pace, and make compromises between her expectations and his.   I see a parallel with Carly and Kirk. 

[Adeejay]

I couldn't muster up any sympathy for Carly.  All I could picture in my mind was her absolute, profound joy as Britt sat crying in the driveway after Chris dumped her.   She said something about how happy she was that the prettiest girl in the room had her heart broken.  Sorry, Carly, but you reap what you sow.

 

Gee, "how did that feel Carly, huh Carly?"  Karma, she be a bitch!

[Mu Shu]

I just think Kirk wanted to date other people,   but got roped into the Jade/Tanner/Carly cool kid club.   And, I think Carly cock blocked him before we saw her do it with Chelsie.   I think she lifted her leg and peed on him every time a new girl showed.   I don't think however that there was anyone other than Carly interested in him, except maybe Juelia. 

[Ketzel]

Ashley I has depth, I have seen it in interviews.  She is smart but she does not relax on a date to show who she is, what she knows and what she likes to do in her life.  I would love to see her get some help with this and learn to allow things to unfold with a man.  Don't be focused on if he likes you, take the time to really see if you like him.   Playing hard to get has value.  Men prefer to do the chase.  AND give him something to chase beyond your looks.

Well there is her, what was it? can't recall . . she was so subtle about it ... something about her . . . ? Darn. Can't remember.

:-D

[PamelaMaeSnap]

"I don't think however that there was anyone other than Carly interested in him, except maybe Juelia."

 

And Juelia's daughter who picked Kirk as her new daddy when Juelia showed her the headshots before they left.

Edited September 7, 2015 by PamelaMaeSnap

[Andromeda]

And I honestly don't think he was trying to break it off ...  I think he wanted to slow things down but the conversation didn't go as he expected and he started panicking/ rambling.

I'd like to think that's the case -- it would have been more logical to just slow things down -- but he told the guys he was going to end it with her. And he had plenty of opportunity when chasing after her trying to get her to listen to just say he didn't want to break up, but to slow things down. And he didn't. I think he just wanted to make himself feel better by leaving without her being so upset.

 

Her repeating "I hate you" was her broken heart. Of course she doesn't suddenly "hate" him after being in love with him. But she hated hearing what he was saying and the pain he made her feel.

 

Carly and Kirk seem to still be in communication, which is nice, if they are still friends.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Andromeda

[sarkygal]

I feel that BiP in general has been an unreliable narrator of the Carly & Kirk relationship. There was a story TPTB wanted to tell, where Carly gets her heart broken by Kirk at the final hour shocking everyone as they seemed a sure thing. But I'm not going to call Carly a desperate fool or Kirk a cad who led her on.

 

The truth is we saw what BiP wanted us to see. Every giddy Carly or reluctant Kirk  ITM was to craft this exact !gasp! dramatic! result. Do I think Carly is insecure and wanted to believe she'd found her true love? Yes. Did Kirk seem like he questioned the speed they were moving at? Yes. He was also shown saying he'd questioned it and then it felt right after their first date. Even in his rambling breakup monologue, he said he'd never felt that way so quickly before. I see 2 people who move in relationships at different paces. He's a slow burn; she jumps all in.If CH and BiP didn't present some ridiculous ultimatum at the end of Paradise, I think these 2 could have stayed together and worked things out. I also wouldn't be surprised if Kirk was the first one BiP approached with the Neil Lane proposal package and he freaked, feeling it was propose or break up.

 

MMV and all that, but I think he fell for Carly but didn't want the immediate pressure of getting engaged in the show. 

[backformore]

I just think Kirk wanted to date other people,   but got roped into the Jade/Tanner/Carly cool kid club.   And, I think Carly cock blocked him before we saw her do it with Chelsie.   I think she lifted her leg and peed on him every time a new girl showed.   I don't think however that there was anyone other than Carly interested in him, except maybe Juelia. 

I don't think any of the women had a chance to know if they were interested in Kirk.  Carly staked her claim, and let any knew women coming in that Kirk was taken.   Even if they tried to get to know him after the first meeting, they were seeing him as "carly's boyfriend" , not as potential date material. 

[OldWiseOne]

And I fear that Juelia left the set, I mean the beach, and immediately signed on the dotted line to be the next Bachelorette in which case, really, that's the last straw, right? Maybe her late husband's family could sue for custody of the child.

Please no, don't even think it! If I never see Juelabia on my screen again it will be too soon. As was mentioned upthread, she needs to go home and be a mom instead of worrying about finding a dad for her child. She just reeks of desperation and fameho, being heartbroken again about Mikey breaking up with her? I don't think he was ever interested in her at all, she was just his ticket back on the show and he figured if he pretended to make an effort and give her his rose at least once then he would be clear to move on to greener pastures without being branded as another Joe.

[saber5055]

I have my doubts about Dan and Kirk's heterosexuality, given Kirk's freakout about an overnight date.

 

 

One of the requirements for this franchise, it seems, is that all the men must be into themselves for working out, body building, shaving chests (or waxing) and spending lots of time in front of the mirror admiring themselves, fixing their hair and "looking good." Whether that makes a man gay, I don't think so. Lots of hetero men are into themselves. Take that famous line, what the man says to his date as they sit across from each other at dinner: "I love your eyes, I can see myself in them."

 

As for being freaked about an overnight date, I would be freaked, too, given the cameras following me around with lenses pushed into my face for every kiss. What the heck are they going to film and what audio will TPTB be playing back from a closed-door overnight rendezvous? 

 

I don't think that makes a man gay, nor a woman a lesbian, if they forego a chance to "do it" on national teevee, then have it discussed ad nauseum in chat rooms and online posts. I'd pass on that myself, and I have no leanings whatsoever toward same-sex sex.

Edited September 7, 2015 by saber5055

[FireFoxy]

The person I truly felt bad for was Tenley. When Kirk and Carly broke up and she had the talking head about knowing how it felt like to have your dreams shattered and heart ripped out in an instant made my heart break for her because...#1- We've all been there and #2- She is obviously not over Kyptin and I can't imagine how awful it must feel to be in her shoes.

[Adeejay]

I think some of the changes people have mentioned on the other forum would help so that one person couldn't tie up another person so early in the game.

 

Last season on Day One, Ashley Frazier decided that Graham was hers, and therefore off limits to the other ladies.  After the show, Graham complained that there were other ladies there that he wanted to get to know, but couldn't because of the "hands off my man policy".  Seems the ladies make a pact that if one of them is interested in a guy, the others will stay away.  I can't help but believe that is the main reason why they were so angry with Samantha; she broke the "girls' code".  I can't help but wonder who else Kirk had his eyes on. 

[JudyObscure]

The recap reminded me that, at the Rose Ceremony, Dan couldn't just leave, he had to sort of re-dump Ashley and Amber.  He tells Amber, "Some things you just can't force."   We all know that Dan, but is it ever a nice thing to say to a woman?  Like ,"I tried so, very, very hard  to find something attractive about you, but I just could not get past my visceral revulsion at the very thought of anything physical ... Don't be mad okay?"  Amber is young and lovely with a gorgeous smile -- you should be so lucky, Grandpa!

[Irritable]

Oh! How entertaining was Samantha's total disgust while kissing Nick? She was literally wincing while kissing him. I've never seen anything like that, not even when Joe slobbered on Kaitlyn's face. That whole date was embarassing. He must have told her she was gorgeous so many times that she stopped even saying "thank you."

 

 

That was so funny!  It looked like Nick either had some WICKED bad breath, or she was just generally repulsed by everything about him except the fact that he had a rose to give.  If their whole date conversation was like what we were shown - nothing but him telling her she's beautiful and her trying to get him to give her additional compliments - then it seems even Nick would get tired of that.

[Wings]

The person I truly felt bad for was Tenley. When Kirk and Carly broke up and she had the talking head about knowing how it felt like to have your dreams shattered and heart ripped out in an instant made my heart break for her because...#1- We've all been there and #2- She is obviously not over Kyptin and I can't imagine how awful it must feel to be in her shoes.

 

I think she is over him.  When she talked about this, she was genuine, I could feel it.  The pain of a break up of that significance stays with you though.  She remembers and can conjure that feeling, thus her empathy toward Carly.  

[jojomano]

Nick was just smarmy (?)...with that wink and all. Ick

[Palomar]

And I fear that Juelia left the set, I mean the beach, and immediately signed on the dotted line to be the next Bachelorette in which case, really, that's the last straw, right?

 

It kind of seems once you are on Bachelor Pad or BiP that you are on the expiration list of being the potential lead of The Bachelor or The Bachelorette.  At least it hasn't happened yet (although the reverse is not true, ala Jake P.).

 

As far as Samantha goes, she seems to not have a personality beyond taking in all the compliments.  Seems she will go out with whoever worships at her altar, as long as they keep telling her she is the prettiest and of course the best date ever.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Palomar

[chocolatine]

Last season on Day One, Ashley Frazier decided that Graham was hers, and therefore off limits to the other ladies.  After the show, Graham complained that there were other ladies there that he wanted to get to know, but couldn't because of the "hands off my man policy".  Seems the ladies make a pact that if one of them is interested in a guy, the others will stay away.  I can't help but believe that is the main reason why they were so angry with Samantha; she broke the "girls' code".  I can't help but wonder who else Kirk had his eyes on. 

 

If Graham and Kirk couldn't man up and tell the women who "claimed" them in no uncertain terms that they wanted to date other people, they have no right to complain after the fact that they missed out. And while Jared is not complaining, I'm also putting him in the "couldn't man up" category.

Edited September 7, 2015 by chocolatine

[Koala]

I think that was the most emotional I've ever seen Jade. I don't think she was that heart-broken when Chris let her go on The Bachelor. It was a bit too much, but I do feel for Carly. Getting blind-sighted hurts no matter what.

 

Kirk did a terrible job at breaking up with Carly. Between his beet-red face and incoherent sentences ("like...I just like...I don't know, like...I just feel like") I wanted to shake his shoulders and tell him to just spit it out. He was also super annoying with his efforts to corner Carly and continue to explain his reasonings. I mean, I'm pretty sure she got the memo. She clearly didn't want to be talked to (or touched), and he just wasn't taking the hint at all.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Koala