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Luke Cage

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Like the show but the last few episodes felt like a chore. I wish Cottonmouth was this season's big bad just because of the superior actor. Mariah is fine, but I just don't like Diamondback's motive and pretty much everything about him. I have no idea how someone as emotional as him got to where he is.

I think we're supposed to assume Matthew Murdock will be his attorney, but the way Daredevil season 2 played out, I'd much rather Night Nurse refer Luke to Foggy or even his girlfriend.

I had to giggle at the Rocky V fight, with all the crowd "Ohhh!"'s.

Edited by Potanical Pardon
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Well, that's a game changer!  It sure looks like Cottonmouth is dead.  Did not see that coming: especially at the hands of Mariah, after he basically said she was asking to be molested.  He was pretty much asking for his ticket to get punched, but I guess he really thought she was just a politician, who wouldn't get her hands dirty, and he paid for it big time!  And now it sounds like Shades is going to use this to try and frame Luke? Damn!  I will miss Mahershala Ali, who was amazing in this role.

The flashbacks were all kinds of fucked up.  All of the Stokes were just insane in their own way.  It took me a second to place that one of the teenagers making fun of Young Cornell was Pop.  Oh, and Mamma Mable was LaTanya Richardson Jackson, Samuel L. Jackson's wife, which is an awesome casting choice.

Meanwhile, Misty is now dealing with some shit, with Captain Kima getting booted (aww, she seemed like "good police"), and now having IA all up on her.  And it sounds like they are setting their sights on Luke too, which will make things.... complicated.

Luke finally meets "Judas", and it looks like it is working.  I wonder if even Claire has the skills to fix him.  Also, the shooter was Dunn Purnsley form Boardwalk Empire, so this should be good!

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I enjoyed the show.  The villains could have been better, but I think they were alright.  I actually preferred Cornell; so I was a bit disappointed by the second half.  Shades was solid.  I think my issue with the back half is that someone as driven by his emotions and as volatile as Stryker was is hard to fathom as a mastermind who spent years running a far reaching network spanning from Georgia to Harlem and/or methodically putting a revenge plot together.  On the other hand, he was clearly motivated.  

Also, are we to believe that Stryker knew that Luke was alive all along? It seemed like it was news to Shade and that he tipped off Stryker; and yet Stryker happened to have his suit ready to fight his powered up nemesis brother... Or was that just a hell of a coincidence? 

I like Misty a lot, but Ridley was right.  Not trusting anyone, including Ridley, was a mistake and likely cost Candice her life. After two partners on the take, however, I can understand her reticence, I guess. And it looks like it galvanized her to become her badass, post-police self, so I forgive.

I'm ambivalent about Claire and Luke being overtly into one another and even kissing.  They definitely have chemistry and I don't necessarily want Claire to be relegated to drifting through all the Netflix Marvel shows as the perpetual field nurse patching our heroes up and dispensing wry advice.  But I'm also aware that Luke and Jessica are a major thing in the comics and I assume they will be reunited, at least one screen if not immediately romantically, for The Defenders.  I have no interest in seeing Claire mooning or pining if Luke and Jessica get back together and less in a triangle.   Oh, and I really hope the lawyer Claire kept referring to is Foggy. Matt was a total shit show during Daredevil S2 and she better than anyone knows he is likely to continue to be distracted. 

Edited by RachelKM
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23 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also the argument between Cornell and Mariah further punctuates just how blackity black, black ,blackity black this show is for real.  He calls her 'Black Mariah" she calls him a "color struck motherfucka!"   Neither one backing down.  I actually find Mariah a little scarier than Cornell.  His feral qualities are all on her surface, hers are way below and I don't think we've seen them yet.

Can I just say that I really don't get the "this show is too black" commentary. It's set in Harlem. While there may be one or two more white people wandering in the background and on the streets, in a black neighborhood, with stories focused on the daily lives of black and brown people, most aren't going to have seven thousand white folks they talk to. The cops, firefighters, Ben Folds band members, yes. The folks in the club, neighbors, guys in the barber shop and random guys playing ball in the Rucker? Nah.

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2 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

Can I just say that I really don't get the "this show is too black" commentary. It's set in Harlem. While there may be one or two more white people wandering in the background and on the streets, in a black neighborhood, with stories focused on the daily lives of black and brown people, most aren't going to have seven thousand white folks they talk to. The cops, firefighters, Ben Folds band members, yes. The folks in the club, neighbors, guys in the barber shop and random guys playing ball in the Rucker? Nah.

Did I miss something? Who on this forum has said this show is too black? (I am not being confrontational but am wondering if I missed something.)

I have seen on other forums people make this (racist) complaint but not here.

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I barely made it through to the end :(. 

If it wasn't for Rosario Dawson, I think I might have given up altogether. Though, aside from the superficial, I'm having a hard time understanding what Claire sees in Luke. They finished this with him near whining (maybe less ep 13 than ep 11-12)... And I'm done with the coffee euphemism (which, it would have been nice to be done with it when Claire initially called it out in ep... 6 or 7?).

I'm sad when characters die because they're too stupid to live. Though, this was almost a theme in this show. Who's going to die next due to stupidity?

I came to this ep thread first because i'm having a hard time recalling distinctions in the other eps... Did/does anyone like Misty? She's another that I'm surprised made it through because of the stupid. Perhaps I'm harsh- maybe I should call it naivete. Either way, her stupid helped other stupid get caught in the stupid noose.

Lord help me, I missed Frank Whaley in the last few eps. I can't believe I'm admitting to that.

Agree with above that Mahershala Ali's Stokes was a much better antagonist than Diamondback- I kinda wish they'd have saved Diamondback as a big bad for another series- let him be a mystery in Luke Cage S1. Oh well.

That kiss(?) between Theo Rossi and Alfre Woodard was straight up nasty. Blech. Other than the sex oozing out of everyone, I didn't see any chemistry between those characters. Not even hate chemistry- just... nothin'. Even earlier in the series when he was scheming her through cleaning up Cornell's death--- it was like he spent all of his time with her trying to get close but there was no charisma between them.

Was Claire's pick of the boxing number, off of the streetlight flyer, an Iron Fist egg?

I'm gonna go watch Jessica Jones again...

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You raise great points RachelKM, especially about Stryker. It could be a plot hole, unlikely for such a tightly controlled ship, but we can still handwave that Shades and Diamondback seemed to have trust issues so maybe that's why Shades was kept in the dark about Luke. Remember Luke and Cottonmouth weren't necessarily headed for confrontation, so Stryker's plans for Luke were really separate from his plans for Cottonmouth.

I'm also against the potential triangle looming between Luke, Jessica and Claire. In fact I was so surprised at the speed of development between Luke and Claire I had to google the comic canon. It turns out Luke has history with all of Claire, Jessica and Misty. Luke and Jessica weren't serious at the time (and with Misty it amounted to a one night stand) but the reason they broke up (Jessica's part in Reva's death) was partially solved as Luke seemed to get over Reva. I like Claire and it would nice to see her getting entrenched in at least one show rather than just drifting throughout the Netflix MCU, but I still think in the end she might lose to Jessica. I think an inter-show romance, while giving both showrunners great many headaches, might be fun and fulfilling for us to watch.

Edited by Boundary
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First of all, I was right there with Mariah when Cottonmouth said she was asking for it. She's a baddie I could enjoy watching, for sure. 

The most confusing aspect of this episode for me is why the stakes are so high for Luke, when Cottonmouth threatened to out him as Carl Lucas. I can't imagine that he would go back to jail willingly; how exactly does Cottonmouth think that would work?

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2 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

No one here. Just the general commentary I'm seeing in the world. It's baffling to me.

I hear you. But hey, could we stick to talking about the episode itself in this thread? That topic probably fits better somewhere else. The media or all-episodes thread, maybe?

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I'm kinda surprised that the majority of criticism is for the villains. After thinking about it today and commenting in the ep 13 thread, I'm starting to think that a lot of my negative response to Diamondback and somewhat to Cornell (MA was just awesome despite the characterization being a one note gangster that that couldn't live up to his gangster family's expectations) was because Luke Cage, as a character, was really weak. He was borderline whiny for half of the series.

"Ohhh. I'm just a guy." "Ohhh. I'm not a hero." Boo effin' hoo. Luke was right; he's not a hero, the real heroes were Pop (RIP) and Bobby Fish and the young woman with the memorabilia store and Connie and the other members of the community that were working damn hard to bring the dream of Harlem back to their gangster ridden lives.

I feel for Luke, I do. His life sucked. Interestingly, with all the whining, unlike JJ and MM, there was not a conflicting philosophical quandary for the character of whether or not he should help. It was never really a question, yet, the character waffled throughout. Even when Pop called in his chip for Luke to find Chico- Luke didn't offer any kind of real resistance, he just kind a kicked at the dirt and mumbled his ok.

I now realize I'm mad at the show. I was really looking forward to it and I'm disappointed. All the stuff with cops and corruption and Misty's inscrutable naivete was stale and cliche. "I stalk justice!" Yeah, whatever.

A few Good things though-
* it was awesome to see Claire. Please bring Rosario Dawson to as many Marvel franchises as her schedule will allow.
*The music was amazing. The juxtaposition of music with plot points was handily crafted.
* I'd watch the Claire and Mami show- all. the. time.
* Nifty to see Turk again too. 
* Claire and the doctor fixing Luke in Georgia was awesome. "We have to boil him!" Heh.
* Liked seeing that Reva's death wasn't random. That didn't sink in after JJ and now requires a re-watch to see where I missed it.
* Fish's remodel of the barber shop and that it might be a future setting as something other than a barber shop is cool. I hope I'm not reading too much into the final ep content on that.
* Congrats to Alfre Woodard for making me want to throat punch her every single time she was on screen. For that character, I'm glad they gave her zero redeeming qualities. 

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15 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I think we're supposed to assume Matthew Murdock will be his attorney, but the way Daredevil season 2 played out, I'd much rather Night Nurse refer Luke to Foggy or even his girlfriend.

I had the same thought. In Season 2 of Daredevil, Matt didn't even bother showing up for his big case because he was too busy playing with Elektra. But Claire had that awesome scene with Foggy where he talked an angry guy down at the hospital. I'd call Foggy over Matt any day and twice on Sunday, which might be necessary in this universe!

The legal system gets some serious abbreviation here. I'm no expert on US laws but my understanding is that the police send evidence to the DA who empanels a grand jury which then finds facts and only then decides whether or not to proceed with a trial. During the several months that this process takes, Mariah would be cooling her heels in jail (or released on bail with strict conditions). But here we have the Grand Theft Auto justice system in which she gets to walk because the last witness was just murdered. "There's reasonable doubt, we gotta let her go!" Not for you to decide, officers.

No one mentioned the fact that Seagate couldn't hold Luke Cage before he knew the extent of his powers. I suppose they could borrow some of that hexagonal power-absorbing material they use on Agents of SHIELD but they didn't even mention it.

Diamondback (who actually had a diamond on his back, clever) wasn't powered? He just had that suit? In that case his organs should have been liquefied when Luke did the Hulk smash on him. And Luke noticed that diamond (which was the control unit for the powered suit) way early in the fight but didn't even try for it. I think they might have been trying to say that the suit was absorbing the energy from Luke's punches so he had to power it down by letting Diamondback beat on him and only then could he smash the thing. But it wasn't very clear.

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22 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Just when I was really getting invested in this series, and especially appreciating what they're doing with the black women as characters, Misty in particular...Misty assaults Claire? What in the entire fuck? I mean, I guess the previous episode, with the glossing over of Mariah's rape for the sake of woobifying Cottonmouth, should have been a hint.  Still, I was willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt. 

I wouldn't say they glossed over her rape at all. It's what changed the course of the show. 

Diamondback is ridiculous, and not in a good kind of way. And while the writing hasn't been the show's strong point, the "you were like a brother to me, previously unmentioned childhood friend! Wait, you are my brother??!" was particularly badly done.

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1 hour ago, Tarasme said:

 

I'm kinda surprised that the majority of criticism is for the villains. After thinking about it today and commenting in the ep 13 thread, I'm starting to think that a lot of my negative response to Diamondback and somewhat to Cornell (MA was just awesome despite the characterization being a one note gangster that that couldn't live up to his gangster family's expectations) was because Luke Cage, as a character, was really weak. He was borderline whiny for half of the series.

 

I've never read these comics, and all that I'd heard about Luke leading up to this is that he was the strong silent type, so I went in with low expectations for him and high for the series as a whole. Honestly, I'd say I'm 75/25 on superhero movies and shows where I enjoy the villains and supporting characters more than the hero.

I hope the weakness of the back half of the season was mostly because Diamonback will be a bigger better villain along with Black Mariah next season.

I never found Luke to be whiny, but he did seem less intentionally stealthy and more put-upon. I thought the women in this did a lot of the heavy lifting.

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I really would like to add, now that it is over that Mariah was really an evil person from the beginning that never wanted to admit it.  She came outside and watched her uncle die (even though he was in the wrong).  Her first thoughts about Luke Cage were can you drown, poison, or burn him?  It also took very little for her to do evil.  She did it with the same level of shrug that Luke did when it came to doing good.  So her full embracement at the end of the series felt like a great reward.

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2 hours ago, Grace284 said:

I wouldn't say they glossed over her rape at all. It's what changed the course of the show. 

I disagree, as the flashbacks were from Cottonmouth's perspective and it was his words that were the catalyst for Mariah's actions. Her rape was a plot point to incite his death and set Luke up, in my perception.   It's Cottonmouth's death that changed the course of the show, as the focus shifted from his conflict with Cage to Stryker's conflict with Cage. 

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I find there are some really interesting female characters in this show, and I appreciate it, but for all that it's really disturbing the amount of times they use a female descriptor (not sure if I can say it in this app.... It's a reference to a female dog) as an insult. It's as if the women can be strong, but it's not really the norm. Cage, the hero, suggests that being unmarried is as an insult. I've watched the series, and won't spoil anything, but as the series continues it seems to me to become more and more frequent... And Cage participates just as much as any of the other men. Just my observation.

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On ‎2016‎-‎09‎-‎30 at 11:38 PM, dkb said:

 Also TRISH.

I think Trish is my favourite non-superhero character in the entire MCU. And interestingly enough I think this was my favourite episode of Luke Cage so far. They really amped up the suspense, on all sides, which I was starting to worry about considering this is a show about an indestructible dude.

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The amount of stupid in the finale was unbearable.  I mean that fight was so cheesy bad and jarring compared to everything else.   I mean give me a freaking break.  Even if the suit could somehow cushion Luke's blows (to the point of protecting bones and internal organs)...you really expect me to believe that visor could do the same?  And what about his completely exposed mouth and neck?  And hey here's a crazy thought what would happen if you used super strength to try to rip off the obvious battery pack powering the thing?  Or to damage the suit at the oddly unzipped zipper at the neck.   Also why did Luke have to actually let him beat the crap out of him instead of uh blocking like a boxer doing a rope a dope?  How did he know that Willis wouldn't pound the crap out of his head and actually kill him before his power ran out?

Fist of all...uh when exactly did Misty solve the Cotton Mouth killing so completely?  And did she really not tell her captain about any of this before now?   Honestly I'm just surprised that she was smart enough to record any of her conversation with the witness... Although I don't recall her asking her if she could record it did she?

Misty charging into the interrogation room accusing Mariah of killing the witness, ruining any chance at all of her confessing and leading to her immediate release...  Although yeah said immediate release was still total unbelievable BS that is not like how things actually work in the real world.

No one searching the Barber shop for the folder that Shades clearly dropped not to mention Misty's phone which had to either be there or been taken by Mariah or Shades.  Does she not likely have other valuable witness phone numbers on there?  Should she not have immediately reported that thing missing and had someone searching for it?  (Also did she actually have waitress girl's information clearly labelled on it...because I would think you would keep police contact under hard to decipher code names or something?  Not to mention have established some kind of code word for communication or something...maybe I'm thinking about it too much though.) 

Cage's obviously over preachy speech being shown with flashes of black culture images random crowds, kids playing etc...*sigh*  I'm only surprised they resisted the urge to put up.an image of Martin Luther King Jr. during it.   Wait....he wasn't on one of the murals was he?  I don't feel like rewatching any part of this episode ever again to check.

Did Luke having just had Mariah arrested actually come up to her and ask her to turn over the folder as part of their deal?   Was he being serious right then?  Brain damage from the fight that he thought she would gladly hand that over right then?

Do you actually have a right to decline handcuffs from federal agents?

The Cage/Claire make-out session just made me cringe with how awkward it seemed.   I mean one good romantic liplock is one thing...but an full on make-out session just seemed like overkill especially with in being in front of Misty (was she actually nothing more than a one night stand to him?) and everyone in the station watching.  (Maybe I'm biased as Cage/Jones shipper...because of the comics they are one of pretty much the only married couples currently allowed to exist and have a kid in today's comics)   Of course that was nothing compared to the forced Mariah/Shades one...who the heck thought that seemed like a good idea and for what purpose?

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For me, Luke Cage had the same problem as Jessica Jones - the supporting cast was inherently more interesting and less annoying than the lead.  Some of it is writing, and some of it is the inability of the actor to rise above the writing challenges.  I thought it was coming together after episode 7, but the introduction of Stryker was poorly conceived, and he basically ended up as this show's Fisk (who got on my last nerve).  

That said, this is the only series thus far for which I watched all episodes without skipping.  The opening theme was my favorite, and this show was the BEST with the musical score, even if it was too on-the-nose at times.  

I stated this early on in an episode thread, and still felt this way by the end: Colter was a miscast.  Mahershala Ali and Colter should have switched roles, especially since Cottonmouth wasn't long for the series.  Colter has limited range, and should probably stick with roles that parallel Lemond Bishop.  Also, the man knows how to wear a suit.  Ali, I believe, would have been able to convey something beyond the stoicism of the character as written.  Because ultimately, I was never really invested in Luke's fate.  

I was much more interested in Misty, Claire, Mariah, Reva, even Inspector Ridley - I could watch an entire series of them (with an entirely different writing team - Marvel didn't do them justice here, save Claire, and I wouldn't expect them to in any other context). I know that ain't happening, but a girl can dream. 

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Yeah I thought this was pretty bad.  I think about 3 out of the first 6 episodes held my full attention so I actually stopped watching after episode 6 since it acted like a finale.   About a day later eventually resumed it.   Yawn.  The only big shock moment was Mariah killing her cousin.  Too bad Cotton Mouth was the most compelling villain, and that I actually only started to really care for him when we got his backstory...and then he was dead.  Maybe if Mariah had stepped up to become a great villain after that moment then it would have worked, but nah she stayed wishy-washy the rest of the way.  Meanwhile DIamondback showed up and just devoured scenery without any of the charisma or charm that Cottonmouth (or previous villains like Killgrave) had.

Oh Diamondback where to start.  Was the reveal of his identity supposed to be a shock or have any impact on us?  Hey here's a character that you've never seen before and was never directly mentioned before but *gasp* he is from Luke's past so you should care.  Instead of caring I was just confused until they finally started explaining things episodes later...

Not that they ever bothered to fully flesh out Diamondback's motivations.  I mean okay I get the whole unloved b*stard child thing, but there's no actual given reason for why and when he decides to destroy Luke for it.    There was some kind of vague incident that I don't recall being explained/shown where Carl and Willis were I guess arrested with them getting different punishments (Carl to the military and Willis to juvie)?  Seriously did I zone out when that incident was explained?   (Likewise do we ever even hear what crime Carl was later framed for or how Willis framed him?)  But yeah what really causes him to hate Luke?   Honestly the comics version of his anger over Lucas stealing Reva from him, cliche as it is, just makes more sense as a reason to actually turn on his friend at that point and frame him so he could steal her back instead of turning on him out of nowhere because of daddy issues that aren't at all Lucas' fault. 

Not to mention how did he even find him and when?  Was he already acting as Diamondback in Harlem when he just stumbled upon him?  And can anyone explain any of his actual plan?  I mean if he just wanted to kill him then why did he wait until after Cornell died to go after him.  (Again I vastly prefer comic book version where Cage seeks to find evidence to prove his innocence seeks out Cottonmouth/Diamondback instead of just coincidences).  How did he actually think that hostage situation would get blamed on Luke?  That entire hostage situation was all kinds of stupid.  I mean first of all a bunch of people apparently did get out near the start...how did a bunch of them not immediately report that the guys with the guns were not Luke Cage?  Then you release more hostages you held at gunpoint, including waitress lady who for sure saw your face and knows you are behind everything.  How was he able to sell super bullets to the police but yet ran out of ammo for his own gun that he only had one bullet at the night club?   The killing the gang family's heads (would they really have met alone without any protection from a doublecross?) and not having the rest of their organizations then gunning for him?  He did not seem to have anywhere near Kingpin level resources or mystical ninjas that they should have been intimidated in the least instead of just pissed off.  The random pointless bomb at the warehouse.  And the coup-de-grace to his plan was really that stupid suit?  (Wouldn't the submachine gun with the exploding bullets have been a better plan?  And speaking of those bullets...you supplied the cops with them so uh even with the suit if you won the fight they were going to arrest your stupid ass for a murder you commited in front of them or you know kill you if you resisted arrest.)  There was no actual major evil plan for the city that needed foiled?  Okay then...this character was just an trainwreck of a big bad so hopefully he will be nothing more than muscle with a mouth in his return.

The Georgia doctor stuff was a total snoozefest.  I mean no one was dumb enough to think Luke could die at this point...and it just dragged on and on in addition to not making much sense.   Only mildly interesting thing was the reveal to Luke that the wife was in on the entire scheme from the start.   Of course that went nowhere.

Wait a minute...didn't Luke own the bar in Jessica Jones?  How could he do that if he doesn't have a bank account or all that other stuff?   How could a ghost own a business in NYC without there being a massive paper trail of his existence that Misty would have found?

Actually there were a few more shocking things...I expected Misty to get her arm amputated at some point and that not happening by the series end was kind of surprising especially when she was shot there.  Then when there was a bomb in the penultimate episode I though that meant Diamondback would use more of them in the finale which would result in the blown off arm...but nope.  Somehow she was not even wearing a sling by episodes end.   Also I can't believe Willis was never in a knife fight...in the comics that's where the name Diamondback came from.  He's given that name after the snake over how quick and deadly he strikes with a blade.

Okay positives...uh I sorta like Luke's raid on Cottonmouth's weapon place.  That was entertaining although not in the same class at the similar Daredevil hallway fight.  Claire got to be an active hero a good bit.  Cottonmouth was a potentially compelling villain briefly.  And I liked some of the references to other Marvel properties (like the Colleen Wing self defense class poster).

Edited by Xenith22
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So, the mysterious shooter ends up being the almighty Diamondback, who actually has some kind of personal vendetta against Luke.  Also, while Luke was under the impression they were just friends, according to Stryker/Diamondback, they are brothers and Luke didn't know?  I'm guessing he will end up being a bastard that Luke's dad kept hidden this entire time.  Not sure what to think right now.  I'll give him a chance, but right now, he's not close to as awesome as Cottonmouth was.

Mariah is slowly, but surely, stepping into the thick of things and becoming even more cold.  The way she casually mentioned she would just have to kill everyone in the apartment if Candance folds, was chilling.  I'm curious to see where this goes.  And her relationship with Shades too.  Shades seems to think he's in the driver's seat now, but I would not underestimate Mariah, as Cottonmouth will attest too.

Oh, Misty, no!  I get the evidence is really is pointing towards Luke and I can understand wanting to bring him in, but assaulting Claire because she mouthed off to you?  You're better then that, Misty!  Is she even going to have a career left, at the rate she is going?

Not sure how they will fix Luke, since Claire more or less said that it is powers that are making the fragments become even worse.  Unless they can turn him "normal" for a second or something, I've got nothing.

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So, a potential cure for Luke has come in the form of Claire driving him to meet Dr. Burstein again, and he gives Luke a nice.... acid bath.  Yeah, I can't believe I just typed that.  And it still doesn't seem to be working!  Poor Luke.

Meanwhile, Mariah makes a play to get out of the game, only for Diamondback to fuck all that up.  It seems clear that they're setting him up to be the opposite of Cottonmouth in a lot of ways.  Cottonmouth could get violent obviously, but there always seem to be a logic or code he'd follow, while Diamondback seems perfectly fine with just dropping any body that happens to piss him off.  At least Domingo survived the little meeting.  Wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being one of those minor villains that keeps surviving episode after episode, season after season.

Simone Messick was great in all of her scenes, but they didn't seem to amount to much, since in the end, the Inspector just decided to give her back her badge just because she is the only one who has rapport with Luke, and it's kind of hard to tell a guy with a bulletproof body to turn himself in.

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10 hours ago, Xenith22 said:

 

Wait a minute...didn't Luke own the bar in Jessica Jones?  How could he do that if he doesn't have a bank account or all that other stuff?   How could a ghost own a business in NYC without there being a massive paper trail of his existence that Misty would have found?

Unless I'm completely delusional, Luke mentions in JJ that the bar is in someone else's name- I think the bartender that was usually with him at the bar.

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On 03/10/2016 at 9:01 PM, DearEvette said:

I am sorry but that call in show at the top of the episode felt clunky as hell.  I can't 'hear' a black person fulsomely  praising the police -- especially not in today's BLM environment -- especially not over the an indestructible black male savior.  No way.

I think it is possible that race relations in the MCU are entirely different than in our world. First off it is a much more technologically advanced society (they had flying cars in 1942) which probably means a more educated society. More education would probably mean less prejudice. 

Plus it is a world where they know aliens exist. And some of those aliens want to kill them. A great way to open people's eyes and bring them together is an external threat like that.

And if people still want to hateon someone for being different they now have people to call freaks. Not saying this would end racism but I can easily see it being way different than our world.

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7 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think it is possible that race relations in the MCU are entirely different than in our world. First off it is a much more technologically advanced society (they had flying cars in 1942) which probably means a more educated society. More education would probably mean less prejudice. 

i dunno, I get what you are getting at, but the show definitely grounds itself in reality , calling out the work of Donald Goins esp. his Kenyatta series where the model was Jomo Kenyatta, using black historic figures to make points such as Crispus Attucks  etc.  Mainly it is because Mariah herself used the term 'Black Lives Matter' that I assumed it was merging actual reality with the usual comic book hyper-reality.

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On 10/2/2016 at 0:00 AM, xqueenfrostine said:

I really enjoyed this series, but I was thoroughly underwhelmed by the Diamondback/Luke Cage fight.  It probably didn't help that I was underwhelmed by Diamondback as a villain.  He chewed the scenery a little too much, which isn't usually something the bothers me but it didn't feel like it fit with the rest of the cast.  I also didn't think he was as well developed as some of the other Marvel Netflix big bads.  

I would have liked to have heard a conversation on the fight between spectators about how it was nothing compared to the time when the big green dude showed up and beat up the guy with all the bones sticking out.

Edited by revbfc
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I wonder if they intend on putting them together in the shows? I mean I feel like they have to, especially if they're going to eventually put Jessica and Luke together. Though Finn Jones would look like a little boy next to Simone Missick

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I believe the bar was in his wife's name? I don't remember how long he had it before it was destroyed, but it does strain credulity that he managed a business with nothing in his name.

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"Nigga.  I AM your brother."  Wait, what'chu takin 'bout Willis?  

This show . . . it's all about the unexpected closing moment, isn't it?

So let me just see if I've got this straight.  Stryker (a.ka. Willis, a.k.a. Diamondback) and Luke (a.k.a Carl) are (unbeknownst to Luke) half-brothers.  So Poppa the preacher-man was stepping out on Stryker's mother with Luke's mother.  They grow up as friends.  Then something of a criminal nature goes down and Stryker is left holding the bag and winds up in prison (which starts him down the road toward criminal master-mind-dom) while Carl turns his life around and goes off and becomes a sheriff.  Stryker gets out of prison, frames Carl for a crime and gets him sent to Seagate, where he has people on his payroll (Shades) who can make sure Carl's stay is as miserable as possible. Carl "dies" in prison and Stryker's vengeance is complete.

Fast-forward to now.  Shades sees "Luke" at the nightclub and recognizes him.  We'll just hand-wave past the incredible coincidence that the man who framed "Carl" also just happens to be the criminal master-mind / silent partner of the dude who hires "Luke" as a dish-washer years later.  Shades tells Diamondback.  Diamondback does some research on the dark web -- finds out about Luke's special skills -- finds out about his late wife --  and then tells Shades to tell Cottonmouth to leave Luke alone -- not to protect him but because he (Diamondback) plans to take Luke out himself using those super-special one-two punch bullets that Shades showed to Cottonmouth (though why he would show that to Cottonmouth is unclear -- blame it on plot necessity).  Did I get it all?  

Hmmmm  . . . how is it that Stryker is still walking around at the end of the episode without so much as a limp after falling out of a balcony and being thrown through a wall by Luke?  He's not an enhanced individual.  More hand-waving required.

I still don't get why those bullets are able to penetrate Luke's skin.  And I think we are in for a scene with Luke coughing up bullet fragments for days (or excreting them in other ways -- lovely).  The only other option I can think of is that those bullets are made of some special alloy (adamantium?) that is able to penetrate Luke's skin and somehow he's going to be found and helped by someone who owns some adamantium surgical instruments.

My only negative comment -- I REALLY hate Shades saying "That's my girl."

This is a fun ride.

Agreed that Mariah putting up with "That's my girl" is ridiculous. I expected her to spit back "I ain't your girl, boy," with hardly a heartbeat between.

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I call bullshit on Mariah allowing Shades to pull that "Thats my girl" line. Of all the things that have happened on this show (including the guy with unbreakable skin) THAT is what is breaking my suspension of disbelief. 

Good episode, and I am interested in Willas as a bad guy (although it would have been nice to have seen some foreshadowing that Diamondback knew Luke, or that Luke had a BFF he screwed over), but I laughed at the "I am your brother" shocker line. Willas might as well have told Luke he was his brothers cousins neighbors former roommate. 

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Am I crazy or did the headline of this piece just spoil episode 8 for me?

Or maybe this is a joke. Luke gets short all the time so this is a joke?

But now I know that episode 8 is a "game changer."

So...either the headline spoils things or the headline is an ironic anti-spoiler and I am too literal to get the joke.

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So for me:

JJ

Daredevil S2 

Luke Cage

Daredevil S1 (could barely drag myself through it.)

Very limited comic background, more of a voracious TV viewer. Struggled with lack of clear motivations for the bad guys, and especially struggled with all that weird dialogue that would tend to be just a hair "off". It was a nails on chalkboard thing for me, as I am very keyed into dialogue, and it was that much worse when it was coming out of the mouths of actors whom I know best from The Wire. And all those "catchphrases" they kept reusing over and over were groan worthy. 

Luke Cage was problematic because he lacked clear flaws. I liked him better in Jessica Jones, where he had real tension and conflict and angst with her. Meanwhile, JJ was one big walking hot mess and she still got the job done in the end--hence a much more compelling character.

I appreciate the racial messages they were addressing, but I do wonder how they are being received (have read no media critiques yet). 

Alfre Woodard looks amazing for 63, but it seemed like they were directing her to play Mariah half-drunk a lot of the time. At least give her an iconic bottle of something, a la Cersei Lannister. 

Oh: anyone explained why "Black Mariah" was used as epithet, and what "color cut" means?

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Good news! She has yet to meet her comics-canonical husband yet.

Bad news! It's Iron Fist.

I mean, it may be good, but I doubt it.

With the right casting, they could always spin-off Misty and Colleen Wing onto their own show as well.

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On 10/4/2016 at 3:54 AM, RachelKM said:

Also, are we to believe that Stryker knew that Luke was alive all along? It seemed like it was news to Shade and that he tipped off Stryker; and yet Stryker happened to have his suit ready to fight his powered up nemesis brother... Or was that just a hell of a coincidence? 

I like Misty a lot, but Ridley was right.  Not trusting anyone, including Ridley, was a mistake and likely cost Candice her life. After two partners on the take, however, I can understand her reticence, I guess. And it looks like it galvanized her to become her badass, post-police self, so I forgive.

I'm ambivalent about Claire and Luke being overtly into one another and even kissing.  They definitely have chemistry and I don't necessarily want Claire to be relegated to drifting through all the Netflix Marvel shows as the perpetual field nurse patching our heroes up and dispensing wry advice.  But I'm also aware that Luke and Jessica are a major thing in the comics and I assume they will be reunited, at least one screen if not immediately romantically, for The Defenders.  I have no interest in seeing Claire mooning or pining if Luke and Jessica get back together and less in a triangle.   Oh, and I really hope the lawyer Claire kept referring to is Foggy. Matt was a total shit show during Daredevil S2 and she better than anyone knows he is likely to continue to be distracted. 

My understanding was that Shades told Stryker about Luke. Stryker was operating as Diamondback anyway for a while, and had been supplying weapons from Hammer Industries, where the suit was from. If you remember from Iron Man 2, Justin Hammer had been trying to make Iron Man-esque suits. Apparently, he went witha different style that Diamondback stole.

Claire barely knows Foggy so I think we have to assume she is referring to Matt.

On 10/4/2016 at 3:48 PM, Tarasme said:

I'm kinda surprised that the majority of criticism is for the villains. After thinking about it today and commenting in the ep 13 thread, I'm starting to think that a lot of my negative response to Diamondback and somewhat to Cornell (MA was just awesome despite the characterization being a one note gangster that that couldn't live up to his gangster family's expectations) was because Luke Cage, as a character, was really weak. He was borderline whiny for half of the series.

"Ohhh. I'm just a guy." "Ohhh. I'm not a hero." Boo effin' hoo. Luke was right; he's not a hero, the real heroes were Pop (RIP) and Bobby Fish and the young woman with the memorabilia store and Connie and the other members of the community that were working damn hard to bring the dream of Harlem back to their gangster ridden lives.

I feel for Luke, I do. His life sucked. Interestingly, with all the whining, unlike JJ and MM, there was not a conflicting philosophical quandary for the character of whether or not he should help. It was never really a question, yet, the character waffled throughout. Even when Pop called in his chip for Luke to find Chico- Luke didn't offer any kind of real resistance, he just kind a kicked at the dirt and mumbled his ok.

I now realize I'm mad at the show. I was really looking forward to it and I'm disappointed. All the stuff with cops and corruption and Misty's inscrutable naivete was stale and cliche. "I stalk justice!" Yeah, whatever.

There is a big conflicting philosophical quandary for the character if he should help, if not more than one.

1. If he gets more involved, he will not be able to just live his life where he wants to just be left alone. If he doesn't, more people might get hurt or make the wrong decisions (like the knuckleheads who jacked Cottonmouth's money).

2. If he gets more involved, people may come to learn he's really Carl Lucas and he'll have to give up his freedom or go on the run some more.

3. If he gets more involved, people will get caught up in the crossfire. Connie, Pop, Misty are all among those who paid some price because he was a quasi-hero.

YMMV, but I thought Misty was portrayed as street-wise and pretty cynical.

On 10/4/2016 at 10:41 PM, Xenith22 said:

Yeah I thought this was pretty bad.  I think about 3 out of the first 6 episodes held my full attention so I actually stopped watching after episode 6 since it acted like a finale.   About a day later eventually resumed it.   Yawn.  The only big shock moment was Mariah killing her cousin.  Too bad Cotton Mouth was the most compelling villain, and that I actually only started to really care for him when we got his backstory...and then he was dead.  Maybe if Mariah had stepped up to become a great villain after that moment then it would have worked, but nah she stayed wishy-washy the rest of the way.  Meanwhile DIamondback showed up and just devoured scenery without any of the charisma or charm that Cottonmouth (or previous villains like Killgrave) had.

Oh Diamondback where to start.  Was the reveal of his identity supposed to be a shock or have any impact on us?  Hey here's a character that you've never seen before and was never directly mentioned before but *gasp* he is from Luke's past so you should care.  Instead of caring I was just confused until they finally started explaining things episodes later...

Not that they ever bothered to fully flesh out Diamondback's motivations.  I mean okay I get the whole unloved b*stard child thing, but there's no actual given reason for why and when he decides to destroy Luke for it.    There was some kind of vague incident that I don't recall being explained/shown where Carl and Willis were I guess arrested with them getting different punishments (Carl to the military and Willis to juvie)?  Seriously did I zone out when that incident was explained?   (Likewise do we ever even hear what crime Carl was later framed for or how Willis framed him?)  But yeah what really causes him to hate Luke?   Honestly the comics version of his anger over Lucas stealing Reva from him, cliche as it is, just makes more sense as a reason to actually turn on his friend at that point and frame him so he could steal her back instead of turning on him out of nowhere because of daddy issues that aren't at all Lucas' fault. 

Not to mention how did he even find him and when?  Was he already acting as Diamondback in Harlem when he just stumbled upon him?  And can anyone explain any of his actual plan?  I mean if he just wanted to kill him then why did he wait until after Cornell died to go after him.  (Again I vastly prefer comic book version where Cage seeks to find evidence to prove his innocence seeks out Cottonmouth/Diamondback instead of just coincidences).  How did he actually think that hostage situation would get blamed on Luke?  That entire hostage situation was all kinds of stupid.  I mean first of all a bunch of people apparently did get out near the start...how did a bunch of them not immediately report that the guys with the guns were not Luke Cage?  Then you release more hostages you held at gunpoint, including waitress lady who for sure saw your face and knows you are behind everything.  How was he able to sell super bullets to the police but yet ran out of ammo for his own gun that he only had one bullet at the night club?   The killing the gang family's heads (would they really have met alone without any protection from a doublecross?) and not having the rest of their organizations then gunning for him?  He did not seem to have anywhere near Kingpin level resources or mystical ninjas that they should have been intimidated in the least instead of just pissed off.  The random pointless bomb at the warehouse.  And the coup-de-grace to his plan was really that stupid suit?  (Wouldn't the submachine gun with the exploding bullets have been a better plan?  And speaking of those bullets...you supplied the cops with them so uh even with the suit if you won the fight they were going to arrest your stupid ass for a murder you commited in front of them or you know kill you if you resisted arrest.)  There was no actual major evil plan for the city that needed foiled?  Okay then...this character was just an trainwreck of a big bad so hopefully he will be nothing more than muscle with a mouth in his return.

The Georgia doctor stuff was a total snoozefest.  I mean no one was dumb enough to think Luke could die at this point...and it just dragged on and on in addition to not making much sense.   Only mildly interesting thing was the reveal to Luke that the wife was in on the entire scheme from the start.   Of course that went nowhere.

Wait a minute...didn't Luke own the bar in Jessica Jones?  How could he do that if he doesn't have a bank account or all that other stuff?   How could a ghost own a business in NYC without there being a massive paper trail of his existence that Misty would have found?

Actually there were a few more shocking things...I expected Misty to get her arm amputated at some point and that not happening by the series end was kind of surprising especially when she was shot there.  Then when there was a bomb in the penultimate episode I though that meant Diamondback would use more of them in the finale which would result in the blown off arm...but nope.  Somehow she was not even wearing a sling by episodes end.   Also I can't believe Willis was never in a knife fight...in the comics that's where the name Diamondback came from.  He's given that name after the snake over how quick and deadly he strikes with a blade.

Okay positives...uh I sorta like Luke's raid on Cottonmouth's weapon place.  That was entertaining although not in the same class at the similar Daredevil hallway fight.  Claire got to be an active hero a good bit.  Cottonmouth was a potentially compelling villain briefly.  And I liked some of the references to other Marvel properties (like the Colleen Wing self defense class poster).

As to Diamondback's motivation, well a) he's crazy, and b) the unloved bastard thing resonates with me, I guess. Diamondback says to Diet Obama that he loved Carl but there was always tension between them. That festering, lifelong resentment about how the two of them were treated and how their dad treated their respective moms, compounded by "of course my framing of him resulted in him getting superpowers" and he's messing with my criminal empire, seems like plenty of motivation.

Carl also tells Diet Obama some details about the incident where they stole a car and got involved with a cop. Their dad went out of his way to get Luke out of punishment by having him sign up for the military, but did nothing for Willis, who went to Juvie. And while he was at Juvie, Willis killed someone, setting him up to be the hardcore criminal he is.

We don't get the details of what crime Carl Lucas supposedly committed or how Willis framed him for it. Presumably, that is going to be part of S2.   

I'm operating under the assumption that Shades recognizes Luke and tells his boss, Diamondback. 

Diamondback clearly didn't want to just kill Luke. He wanted a) Luke to accept the truth that he and Diamondback were actually half-brothers and that their dad was a douche b) Luke to suffer as much as humanly possible. Diamondback could have shot Luke in the head or the heart or someplace that would be most likely fatal. Instead, he shot him in the gut for maximum pain.

As to the hostage situation, Diamondback clearly was fine dying as long as he could take Luke out first. He didn't need for people to permanently believe that Luke Cage was guilty. He just needed/wanted Luke's name to be sullied as a murderer for long enough to either take Luke out himself or induce NYPD to do it. The cops might not believe the hostages when they downplay the notion that Luke caused the hostage situation. Even if they came to believe that Luke didn't orchestrate the hostage situation, the cops still were under the impression that Luke killed a cop, Cottonmouth and assaulted two other cops. 

3 hours ago, kieyra said:

So for me:

JJ

Daredevil S2 

Luke Cage

Daredevil S1 (could barely drag myself through it.)

Very limited comic background, more of a voracious TV viewer. Struggled with lack of clear motivations for the bad guys, and especially struggled with all that weird dialogue that would tend to be just a hair "off". It was a nails on chalkboard thing for me, as I am very keyed into dialogue, and it was that much worse when it was coming out of the mouths of actors whom I know best from The Wire. And all those "catchphrases" they kept reusing over and over were groan worthy. 

Luke Cage was problematic because he lacked clear flaws. I liked him better in Jessica Jones, where he had real tension and conflict and angst with her. Meanwhile, JJ was one big walking hot mess and she still got the job done in the end--hence a much more compelling character.

I appreciate the racial messages they were addressing, but I do wonder how they are being received (have read no media critiques yet). 

Alfre Woodard looks amazing for 63, but it seemed like they were directing her to play Mariah half-drunk a lot of the time. At least give her an iconic bottle of something, a la Cersei Lannister. 

Oh: anyone explained why "Black Mariah" was used as epithet, and what "color cut" means?

Again, I think the motivations for each of the bad guys was fairly clear and believable:

Cottonmouth: Wanted to be the king (with a smattering of being brought up in a family that disbelieved that he could be the king)

Mariah: wants money and power and respectability (and she maybe believes her bs about trying to do good for the Harlem community to some extent.)

Diamondback: he's crazy, has a business to run, and resents being denied the love and affection of his golden-child half-brother

Shades/Zip/Turk/Scarfe/etc.: Relatively small-minded gangsters who want to get paid.

I didn't hear the term "color cut," but they could have used the term "colorstruck" or "color cut" could be a synonym. Colorstruck is slang for how some black people have internalized the notion that lighter-skin blacks are preferable to darker-skin blacks.

In accordance with that, calling her Black Mariah might be jabbing Mariah about being dark-skinned and her own insecurities about that.

It's also a nod to the comic-book counterpart, and when it comes to cards, Black Mariah is slang for the Queen of Spades, which is what she was fancying herself if you excuse the racist term for blacks.

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7 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

Pop was Reva's father?? How did I miss this? Was it mentioned in the first episode?

Wait! What? I totally missed that too until you said it and then I skimmed the article.

Luke did say that Pop was "his wife's people" but that was kind of glossed, and I dismissed it as a lie to cover up something from Luke's past.

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I wanted to like this show. I really did. One of Marvel's only non-white superheros on the screen? There are parts of the first episode I did like: some of the performances and the overall dark mood of the show were working. But it didn't grab me for some reason, and I found that I couldn't bring myself to root for any of the main characters, even Luke Cage's fine ass.  Maybe Pops. I liked Pops. 

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Well.  Huh.  That was unexpected.

I always felt Mariah was a seething mass under the surface and we hadn't seen it yet.  But damn, this?  Out of all the stuff that could have sent her over the edge, out of all the differences she had with her cousin, I love that it was her molestation at the hands of the uncle who favored him was it. I hate to see Mahershala Ali go because he was a charismatic villain but I did not mind that he had to go out at the hands of Mariah.  If you count Misty taking out Lt. Perez in the last ep, then this is score-2 for the women of Luke Cage vs. dirty men.

The shooter has GOT to be Diamondback, yes or one of his henchmen?  Who else would have the bullets capable of hurting Luke.  Will we finally get to see him?  Will he stand up to the hype?  I hope so, admittedly I haven't paid too much attention to the casting beyond Colter, Missick, Woodard and Ali so I don't know who they would have cast for Diamonback.  But he (or she?) needs to bring at least what Ali brought to Cottonmouth to be viable, imo.

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