S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

[supposebly]

I just rewatched the first episode. They all never stood a chance.

 

Alana to Jack after Will has killed Hobbs: You said he wouldn't get too close.

 

Oh my, Alana, you're completely missing the real danger. Like she does.

 

Jack's first encounter with Hannibal is rather funny. First, he sort of barges in, like he usually does, then, when he realizes that won't work with Hannibal, he changes tactics and does the whole "I admire you so very much" spiel.

 

I think I was very distracted in the first season with all the nasty corpse presentations and the Ew!Cannibalism! Ew!Cooking human flesh! that I didn't focus enough on the characters. So I'm looking forward to rewatching.

 

Sometimes I wonder if Will had become something even nastier even without Hannibal's "help". The way he shot Hobbs seemed very clearheaded after he couldn't save Abigail's mother. He only started shaking when he tried to save Abigail.

Maybe trying like hell to fight Hannibal's influence at least postponed his development that got kickstarted with Jack asking for his help.

 

Or maybe I've listened to Hannibal too much.

Edited August 31, 2015 by supposebly

[tennisgurl]

I think Will always did have a certain darkness inside of him, that's one of the reasons Hannibal was so obsessed with him. He had both such capacity for good and for evil, I think it made him first a play toy, then his obsession. 

 

As for the final cliff dive, I see it, without reading interviews about author intent or anything like that, as Will knowing he has to stop this whole thing, this whole killing cycle he is now apart of, and he needs to die for that to happen, and so does Hannibal. Its a tragic ending, but kind of inevitable. I don't think Will could go back to his nice, happy family life, even if he wanted to. 

[MisterGlass]

Captanne, it was Francis who hurt Will's face.  Hannibal will have stitched it up for him though, if there is ever a follow up.  I'm okay with them dead as an ending, but if the plan in the future was to follow Will it isn't a bad one.  Whether or not they survived, the Will we knew died.  What comes a shore, if something does, will be a different beast.  Perhaps Will can finally settle down to repair boat motors in a secluded area.  As I recall, Hannibal's second retirement destination was in South America.  Imagine Hannibal stalking through Carnival. 

 

I agree that Will didn't intend the agents in the convoy to die, and was surprised by what Dollarhyde did.  However, he was desperate in needing some kind of resolution to his predicament.  DeadlyEuphoric, I think you have a good read on Will and Molly's relationship.  It was something Will needed, but it wasn't fully honest.  And he'd gone to far into the darkness this time to really be pulled back.  He would have been toxic to Molly and Walter.  I liked Molly in the time she had, and trust that she and Walter will go on happily with the dogs; perhaps more happily than they would have with Will returned to them.

 

In Feeding Hannibal for this episode Janice Poon comments that to enter the final circle of hell Dante and Virgil descend a cliff.

 

Looking back at the season as a whole, there are some things that I missed seeing, but they are more things that I wanted to see explored rather than a disappointment in what was presented.  I wanted a sense of the scandal and outcry surrounding Hannibal's trial, and more of an idea of what it did to the characters.  It would have been a parallel to Will's trial and imprisonment in Season 2.  Price and Zeller testifying would have been great.  And I would have been so, so happy to see David Bowie as Uncle Lecter, and a wonderful Lady Murasaki of some kind.

 

There was a comment earlier about a flirtation with misogyny in the outcomes for some of the female characters.  There are moments in the series where I thought the female characters were let down.  There are certainly characters who are undercut by other male characters.  I think the least served were Miriam, Reba and Chiyoh; they are the only significant female characters I don't feel like I know.  Each of them did have a moment of success, though: Miriam found Hannibal, Reba survived Francis, and Chiyoh refused to yield to Hannibal's imprisonment mind game.  Looking back at the other women (Beverly, Bella, Alana, Freddie, Molly, Abigail, Margot, and even Bedelia) I am left with a unique impression of each of them.  No two are alike.  I often feel like female characters are cookie-cutter and interchangeable, and thrown in as an afterthought, but not this group.  Bella and Beverly are my favorites, though I have a grudging regard for Freddie.

 

Edited for names and formatting.

Edited August 31, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Captanne]

Did it pass the Bechdel Test?  I wasn't watching for that....  I bet it did.

[MisterGlass]

Definitely on points one and two.  There are quite a few female supporting characters, and they definitely talked to each other.  I'd have to rewatch a few bits to confirm it passes point three.  I know Freddie and Abigail talked about Abigail revealing her story in a book, and Abigail and Alana talked about her future.

[Snookums]

Just fucking arrange a "suicide" in Hannibal's cell and have done with it - you can't tell me that Alana with her control of the institution and her money and power couldn't have set it up and gotten away with it.

 

 

Especially on this "The FBI is three guys" show!

 

FBI Agent: So, let me get this straight. Lector shot himself in the face, then stabbed himself, then chopped himself up, then set himself on fire? 

 

Alana (not blinking): Yep.

 

FBI Agent: Seems legit. *signs off on paperwork, vanishes into ether*

 

Also about his looks -- I don't find him all that attractive but his physique is amazing.

 

 

I didn't notice this until this episode, but Mads has a little belly going on. It's really noticeable in the jumpsuit, and perfect for the character--he's had three years to go to seed and not do too much cardio, after all. I don't know if they just padded him or Mads tucked into some extra dessert but it was a perfect little thing.

[jeansheridan]

but Hannibal was in custody, they had other options. Just fucking arrange a "suicide" in Hannibal's cell and have done with it - you can't tell me that Alana with her control of the institution and her money and power couldn't have set it up and gotten away with it.

 

But Alana isn't a killer.  She did help set up Frederick and I think he shook her up quite a bit by calling her on it.

DeadlyEuphoric.  Gah!  You are so insightful it's hard to respond.  I agree with a lot of what you said.

 

 

rom what I understand the "FBI plan" was for Hannibal to be taken to a special house where he would be under FBI surveilance, and the location of the house made it easier to monitor whoever came and went.

This does make Jack look less stupid. 

 

 

So I can buy Hannibal continuing to commit crimes without being caught, especially as it has been at least 3 years since Hannibal the Cannibal had his 15 seconds of fame on TV reports... He is probably mostly forgotten by now, especially in foreign countries.  IF he is keeping a low enough profile and not trying to replace a very well known public figure etc, that is.

 

So in the books, Hannibal does have plastic surgery to everything but his nose (he values that too much).  Obviously a television show can't do this, so I'm okay with ignoring the fact that yeah, modern technology would probably spot Hannibal sooner.  Then again, people do evade the police in modern times.  It's not like there are unlimited resources to view video camera footage.  Bedelia's deliberate sitting in front of cameras didn't seem to have any payoff.

 

 

Because one thing that has struck me over the course of this year is that GA has two serial-killer shows going on at the same time, and The Fall very explicitly does not glorify the serial killer

While I agree that The Fall is a much more realistic show and that the serial killer had a much more realistic life, I don't think that scene between them was all that great.  But Bedelia's annoyance with Will was beautiful to see.  Especially the "twitchy" comment.  There's nothing less romantic or sexy than "twitchy".  Burn Bedelia.  Burn. 

 

 

I think the relationship with Molly was there to underline this. Here was Will, in an apparently happy, healthy, supportive relationship where he was loved and even got to be a father. But it wasn't enough. Couldn't be. Because it was a relationship where he had to hide parts of himself, even from himself.

You do make me wonder--is the full expression of yourself really the best way to be?  Would Hannibal understand and support Will's need to rescue dogs?  I doubt it.  So even with Hannibal, Will would need to suppress part of himself.

[Tippi Blevins]

I'm not especially keen on Fuller's murder/suicide explanation unless he means that Hannibal lets Will murder him? Which I guess isn't exactly the same thing as suicide? Otherwise, if Hannibal had planned to survive the night, it means he had to be dumb enough to pull Will up right next to the edge instead of literally anywhere else on the patio. And Hannibal is usually more meticulous than to do something like that by accident.

[jeansheridan]

 

I didn't notice this until this episode, but Mads has a little belly going on. It's really noticeable in the jumpsuit, and perfect for the character--he's had three years to go to seed and not do too much cardio, after all. I don't know if they just padded him or Mads tucked into some extra dessert but it was a perfect little thing.

I noticed this too!  But jumpsuits are unforgiving.  Before we saw him in suits.  There was that lovely, totally unnecessary shirtless scene earlier in the season, so I vote for padding.  Mads is in good shape.  Not Hollywood shape, but fit, former ballet dancer shape.  Jeez, he beautiful.  I like his face, especially for not being conventionally handsome.  Those cheekbones!  And the intelligence and humor.  I will always be grateful to Fuller for having the guts to cast him. 

[kechara]

Maybe it's the "dignity pants" since he has no toilet Were I Hannibal, I would hunt down Allana just for that

[Anela]

On demand the scene with the Leg is missing. We see Alana choppering out with the family but No Bedelia after the Will scene.

I watched it on-demand, and saw the leg scene.

 

I did like Bedelia calling Will a reckless, twitchy little man. I usually like Will, but not like this.

[jeansheridan]

I've been ignoring the Bedelia "dining" scene.  Felt tacked on.  In my mind, the show ends with The Fall.  I have all kinds of love for Gillian Anderson, but this show is owned by Mads and Hugh.  It's their finale. 

 

 

I did like Bedelia calling Will a reckless, twitchy little man. I usually like Will, but not like this.

I get this.  In this whole ep, I think only the scene with Reba was the Will we all loved in the first ep.  It's a glorious, crazy, romantic ending, but perhaps not the happiest for Will.  I'm used to "romantic"= "good", but Hannibal twists that idea.  But I guess for those who love Will as a good guy, it is a great moment, falling over that cliff.  He's bleeding out, mortal injuries perhaps, and he takes down Hannibal.  Literally takes him down.  For those who love the relationship, it's a glorious moment of perfect unity.  And then Will ends it.  Regardless of both interpretations, Will is the one who acts in that final moment.  I agree that Hannibal is usually more careful, but he looks faintly surprised the moment they begin falling. 

 

Of course, I fully expected him to survive.  Hannibal doesn't die like that.  Then again, does Hannibal die of old age with his teeth failing like Frederick predicted?  Like that tiger getting his teeth worked on?  That isn't Hannibal either.

 

I didn't realize Hannibal tore Francis' throat out the first time.  Yowsa!  I don't think we've ever seen the Mads version be such an animal.  Have we seen him bite before? 

Edited August 31, 2015 by jeansheridan

[tennisgurl]

He definitely took a bite out of him. That was intense as hell. 

[GreyBunny]

I just watched for the first time and...

 

HOLY FUCKBALLS!  

 

WHY couldn't the rest of the season be this awesome?!

 

MURDER HUSBANDS!!!  Yes!

Edited August 31, 2015 by GreyBunny

[jeansheridan]

I just watched for the first time and...

 

HOLY FUCKBALLS!  

 

WHY couldn't the rest of the season be this awesome?!

 

MURDER HUSBANDS!!!  Yes!

Heeeeee!

[Captanne]

In light of the rest of the series, I think the Finale was really superior.  Overall, I find myself liking the series more and more the further I step back from it.  I may actually rewatch it.  (I have never done that to any series other than to co-watch something with someone I wanted to expose to a series -- like Farscape or La Femme Nikita (1995).  There are other shows I've sat through a second time with friends but I might actually watch this again on my own for the sheer beauty of parts of it and the intensity of others.  Also, I want to see The Big Picture put together.)

[Fen]

Alana wasn't looking at Margot, she was looking behind her at their burly bodyguard with a huge gun. Just the show's way of letting us know that, as Fuller said, Alana and her family are going to have to have guys like that following them around all the time now. Alana will always be looking over her shoulder to make sure it's her bodyguard there and not Hannibal.

 

And Fuller does call Alana's ending the only happy one of the bunch. She gets to go away with her wife and son, even if she has to have bodyguards.

 

Yep - I subsequently read interviews with Fuller saying that Alana had a happy ending.  I dunno - my original response to it just wasn't a happy one.  But then, I've disliked s3 Alana - so maybe my take on it was coloured by that?

 

I did think she had a glance at Margot before looking back at the security guys.

 

But Alana isn't a killer.  She did help set up Frederick and I think he shook her up quite a bit by calling her on it.

DeadlyEuphoric.  

 

Alana is a killer.  She killed one of the men guarding Hannibal at Muskrat farm, and she assisted in Mason's murder.

 

I like that Alana and Frederick got a good scene together at the end.  Their relationship went from 'I'm friendly with the new Chief of Staff' and klutzy flirting from Frederick, right through to slinging accusations, utterly despising each other, then reluctant anti-Hannibal allies - right through to that last scene.  It's sometimes hard to see any relationship on the show that isn't Hannibal and Will - but theirs was definitely interesting and worth looking at.  Chilton most definitely called her out at the end, and she did seem shaken.  

 

His line about her wearing Hannibal's skin was spot on.  It's a shame we didn't have more time before the end to see her grapple with that.

 

MisterGlass said:

 

There was a comment earlier about a flirtation with misogyny in the outcomes for some of the female characters.  There are moments in the series where I thought the female characters were let down.  There are certainly characters who are undercut by other male characters.  I think the least served were Miriam, Reba and Chiyoh; they are the only significant female characters I don't feel like I know.  Each of them did have a moment of success, though: Miriam found Hannibal, Reba survived Francis, and Chiyoh refused to yield to Hannibal's imprisonment mind game.  Looking back at the other women (Beverly, Bella, Alana, Freddie, Molly, Abigail, Margot, and even Bedelia) I am left with a unique impression of each of them.  No two are alike.  I often feel like female characters are cookie-cutter and interchangeable, and thrown in as an afterthought, but not this group.  Bella and Beverly are my favorites, though I have a grudging regard for Freddie.

 

I respect Bryan Fuller's commitment to not showing sexual violence against women on the show - given how prevalent it is in other shows and movies.  However, I felt that - post-Beverly - this sometimes broadened out to a guarantee of safety for female characters which could be detrimental to tension?  For example, I knew Frederick was going to get the tooth fairy treatment, because he'd never show Freddie going through that.  I didn't really fear for Alana at any point.  Even knowing that the show would deviate from canon, I was never truly worried about Reba.  Bedelia survived Florence, and she's still alive as the curtain falls.  I think that affected how engaged I felt by their storylines.  

[pasdetrois]

The setting of the two guys against the stormy gray skies was stunning. I had to pause my DVR and take it in. And it was the only time I can recall Hannibal's facial expression as something other than impassive, smug or amused. He was weary but at peace.

 

I never saw a traditional romance or homoerotic love between them. They were two people who had extraordinary, rare - um - talents and they found a deep kinship in each other. Will resisted as long as he could, and I think the cliff fall meant he could not live with the fact that he had succumbed. Hannibal let him do it.

[Crossbow]

MisterGlass said:

 

I respect Bryan Fuller's commitment to not showing sexual violence against women on the show - given how prevalent it is in other shows and movies.  However, I felt that - post-Beverly - this sometimes broadened out to a guarantee of safety for female characters which could be detrimental to tension?  For example, I knew Frederick was going to get the tooth fairy treatment, because he'd never show Freddie going through that.  I didn't really fear for Alana at any point.  Even knowing that the show would deviate from canon, I was never truly worried about Reba.  Bedelia survived Florence, and she's still alive as the curtain falls.  I think that affected how engaged I felt by their storylines.  

 

I never felt the safety of any female character was guaranteed. I was sure Freddie was going to die, and of course Abigail. I previously thought Beverly was safe because she was in the book, but, well. So Reba and Alana weren't necessarily safe just because they were in the book either.

 

I don't know what to think about the Bedelia epilogue. Dramatically, I guess it was their way of showing all the damage Hannibal and Will left in their wake.

I'm not especially keen on Fuller's murder/suicide explanation unless he means that Hannibal lets Will murder him? Which I guess isn't exactly the same thing as suicide? Otherwise, if Hannibal had planned to survive the night, it means he had to be dumb enough to pull Will up right next to the edge instead of literally anywhere else on the patio. And Hannibal is usually more meticulous than to do something like that by accident.

 

Had too. Checkov's cliff.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Crossbow

[catrox14]

I thought the Bedalia tag was her having a drug induced hallucination. That she was sitting there waiting and thinking that her only outcome was her leg on the table with Hannibal.

[Captanne]

Murder/suicide means someone didn't want to go and the other caused his death.  Ie, Will killed Hannibal against Hannibal's wishes and committed his (Will's) own suicide.  (Because Will initiated the fall.)  

 

Murder is based on the intent of the murderer.  For example, Dr. Kevorkian assisted people to their deaths by their own request.  They asked him to kill them -- which some called "assisted suicide" -- but he was convicted in a court of law for murder.  The definition of murder is based on the mens rea (mind set; intent) of the murderer to kill another human being.  (All the degrees of murder are based on the ability of the actor to form the requisite intent or other various circumstances.)

 

Whether or not Hannibal accepted his fate, by initiating the fall over the cliff, Will murdered Hannibal.  (I replace the word Hannibal with "Will's dark side" in my mind.)

 

Suicide/suicide would mean that the two killed themselves (intentionally) together.

 

I go with Fuller's view and thought that from the very moment I saw the scene it was a murder/suicide.  Will realizes that he has to kill his dark side (Hannibal) as he accepts him into his life.  Then, he kills himself in the same moment knowing that he can't go on with this side of him acknowledged as a reality and accepted.

 

Blergh -- bad English but I hope I got the gist of my thinking process across.

 

I have no problem with that interpretation at all -- I agree with it and it seems to be the creator's meaning, based on his statement.  

 

Added almost an hour later:  ETA:  Someone also suggested Will killed himself because he had nothing to return to -- but they didn't imply Molly being inadequate -- quite interestingly they mentioned that he left a wake of very dead officers behind him and a questionable method of "apprehending" the Red Dragon.  He really had a lot of things to answer for and no really good ending for the potential results.  Jail time?  I mean, really, what did Will have left but to go over the cliff with Hannibal?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Captanne

[Crossbow]

From Hannibal's posture, I felt like he let Will do it because, "Oh well, this was exhausting anyway." Will probably change his mind when he hits the water.

[Bruinsfan]

But then, GA's line deliveries never bothered me because I always had the impression that was merely an affect of Bedelia's and not the way she normally spoke. And that was shown to be the case in this episode because she dropped the affect in her scene with Will where she just is so blown away by what an utter fucking idiot he is that she can't muster the affect.

What amused me about Bedelia's shock and anger was that she was still accepting Will's warning at face value, as if he believed that using Hannibal as bait and moving him were a workable plan and wouldn't blow up in their faces. It didn't seem to occur to her that he might realize how likely an escape would be and work deliberately toward that end, even though his warning came in the form of taunts. Will pretty much flat-out told her that he was going to spring Hannibal and she missed it, which is hilarious since she previously called it that he was even more wound up in Hannibal's web than she herself.

[Nutjob]

Fuller's interpretation is the only one that makes the ending work for me, and the only one that would keep it from ruining the series for me. Hannibal can't fully win. He just can't. He did to a degree because Will finally embraced his dark urges, but if he also willingly succumbs to death with Will (suicide/suicide), it means Hannibal fully controls the situation and fully gets what he wants. To me, that is completely unsatisfying as a viewer and someone who, while fascinated with Lecter as a character (and in love with Mads as an actor), would never "root" for a character so utterly destructive and morally heinous.

 

I loved the final Bedelia scene, because it gave me one last little macabre giggle, though. Poor Bedelia--she's going to be waiting with her meticulously-prepared leg roast for a while, isn't she?

[Crossbow]

What amused me about Bedelia's shock and anger was that she was still accepting Will's warning at face value, as if he believed that using Hannibal as bait and moving him were a workable plan and wouldn't blow up in their faces. It didn't seem to occur to her that he might realize how likely an escape would be and work deliberately toward that end, even though his warning came in the form of taunts. Will pretty much flat-out told her that he was going to spring Hannibal and she missed it, which is hilarious since she previously called it that he was even more wound up in Hannibal's web than she herself.

 

Ah, see, my interpretation was that she knew exactly what Will was planning. She should have run, but I guess she can't walk away from Hannibal either.

[Bruinsfan]

It read to me as if she were incredulous at how short-sighted and overconfident Will was (supposedly) being, not horrified by his turn to the dark side.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Going Off In Act Three / Film and farewell in the Hannibal finale.

[Crossbow]

Did it pass the Bechdel Test?  I wasn't watching for that....  I bet it did.

 

I don't believe either this episode or this season passed. I don't think it COULD pass, because the entire show is about hunting a male serial killer, so if two women were ever talking to each other, they would probably be talking about a man.

[Bruinsfan]

I suppose it did with Molly and the vet talking about the sick dogs, but that's the last time I recall two women interacting.

[saber5055]

So I want to know who cooked Bedelia's leg. Hannibal, as we all know, cooks like a gourmet chef and would have considered a leg roasted whole and just plopped on the table extremely rude and tres gauche.

[Snookums]

I loved the final Bedelia scene, because it gave me one last little macabre giggle, though. Poor Bedelia--she's going to be waiting with her meticulously-prepared leg roast for a while, isn't she?

 

 

I loved this interpretation! Not only does it show how Bedelia, the one who got away, finally snapped from the exhaustion of being that one, but how she's waiting for dinner guests who will never arrive.

 

Since she's so narcissistic, she assumes that the very first thing Hannibal and Will would do is hunt her down. Unlike Alana, who was basically told by Hannibal (like Bedelia was told by Will, come to think of it) to run away or he'd come get her, she doesn't hop the nearest helicopter with six giant bodyguards--she can't bear the idea that Hannibal might not actually bother with her, especially since she had to hear it from his twitchy little proxy. She's worked too hard to make him as obsessed with her as he made her with him.

 

Look at that dining setup--the lavishness of the tableware, the elegance of her gown and hair, the over the top-ness of the entire cooked leg on the table as she sits, gasping with delight at the thought of her true love/mirror finally arriving to an irresistible experience featuring her. Her, her, her, her, her, her. Fork in lap, she waits for battle, convinced that it will end with Will bleeding out and Bedelia in Hannibal's arms. 

 

She's tried everything else. Being his shrink, running away from him, running away with him, dancing with him, bathing for him, killing for him, leaving him, lying about him, lecturing about him. All those truffles and wine and oysters, those Italian professors and nosy bearded wannabes. All those lecture halls. All those  conversations with Will, the golden boy, that little shit. Always without a perfect blonde hair or facial expression out of place. All she got out of that was scott free, not a mark of his regard on her. If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself.

[catrox14]

So I want to know who cooked Bedelia's leg. Hannibal, as we all know, cooks like a gourmet chef and would have considered a leg roasted whole and just plopped on the table extremely rude and tres gauche.

 

Oh good point. That's another reason for me to stick with my thought that it was fantasy or hallucination of Bedelia's.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Farewell Hannibal, a show like NO OTHER.

 

 

I will truly miss you....

[Nutjob]

I don't think it was a hallucination, but I do think she probably drugged herself in order to go through with it. Snookums' post is exactly how I interpret Bedelia's thoughts on the entire thing, but am not eloquent enough to express.

[Crossbow]

So I want to know who cooked Bedelia's leg. Hannibal, as we all know, cooks like a gourmet chef and would have considered a leg roasted whole and just plopped on the table extremely rude and tres gauche.

 

According to Janice Poon, this is Kalua style, and apparently Hannibal did it. I guess he had a lot of time.

[Snookums]

This season really could have used more Zeller and Price.

 

 

God, yes. "Ohhhh, Reba! I can't let you buuuuuurn!" *Arm Flappage* Those two needed much more to do. They're the only characters who understand that all this is fucking crazy, ignore it, do your job, go home and drink.

 

Skimming the thread and rereading the ideas behind the double cliff dive, I tend to agree with Fuller that this was a murder/suicide, with it being Will's first true murder, the one he did by himself and for himself. Considering he just helped Hannibal slice 'n dice Dolarhyde that might seem fanciful, but I read that as giving Hannibal a show. What he always wanted, his other half/double/angel dragged down into the black blood in the moonlight with him--so over the top, so gooey, so distainful, so Hannibal Lector.

 

Will finally realized that the only way to say goodbye to Hannibal is to quit waiting for him to get the message that it's over. He just isn't going to hear it, his egoism is way too strong--a hurricane you're trying to shout against. So, fine. If Hannibal wants this to be the frickin' fulfillment of your grande affaire, whatever. He can press you against his blood soaked six thousand dollar cashmere sweater and pose like a proud archangel and whatever else he wants. You are going to just launch the two of you over that damn cliff and kill him, murder him, put an end to this and quit pinning your hopes for redemption on his last thought being the realization that you didn't love him.

 

Let him think you loved him. You know what's true, you know what's real, and if you've got to murder a guy rather than change his mind, then that's what you've got to do. Will may have been in Hannibal's embrace going over that cliff, but he was finally alone in his mind. That's what made it murder. 

[shirazplease]

I have looked in this forum and recaps on other sites to find the answer to my question and have been unsuccessful.  Who owns the house on the cliffs?  One recap I read stated it was Hannibal's but I don't remember seeing it before.  I thought it was Bedelia's house but I wasn't sure. He did go to her house after the Season 2 bloodbath after all....I don't remember those cliffs or that location from any prior episode.  But my memory is not what it used to be...Help?  

Edited August 31, 2015 by shirazplease

[Fen]

I agree, Captanne - what Fuller said was intended in the scene is what I took from it.  Will takes them both over the cliff.  'Can't live with him, can't live without him'.  I thought it worked well.  Will finally acknowledges that he has this kinship and bond with Hannibal, but cannot allow either of them to live for the greater good.

 

I'm by no means a shipper - but it was romantic.  Dark, but romantic.  It's as much of a consummation of their relationship as you were ever going to see on screen.

 

Word of God in interviews is that Bedelia did not in fact remove and cook her own leg as an offering to perhaps win survival (this is totally what I thought happened).  Fuller has said someone else removed it and cooked it, and the table is set for three...

 

From the HitFix interview:

 

Speaking of Bedelia, the series' final image isn't them going off the cliff, but Bedelia waiting to serve a guest who is never going to come. How did you decide that was the image you wanted to end it on.

 

Bryan Fuller: Well, that's a really interesting interpretation of the scene. You think she cut off her own leg and is going to serve it to somebody?

 

She seems as if she is throwing a dinner party.

Bryan Fuller: (laughs) No, that's our little nod to the audience that perhaps Hannibal could have survived that cliff dive. She's sitting at the table with her leg on the table and she's looking absolutely terrified, and she grabs the fork and hides it under her napkin and waits for whoever's going to return. This woman still has some fight in her. We don't know if Hannibal is indeed serving her her leg, or is it Hannibal's uncle Robertus, or Lady Murasaki, or is it Will Graham?

 

 

[tomorrowgirl]

I had been disappointed in this third season, and when I heard the show had been cancelled, I didn't care much.  But this finale reminded me of how good the show was, and now I'm sorry it has ended.

[Crossbow]

In order for it to be a murder/suicide, they would have to be dead.

I have looked in this forum and recaps on other sites to find the answer to my question and have been unsuccessful.  Who owns the house on the cliffs?  One recap I read stated it was Hannibal's but I don't remember seeing it before.  I thought it was Bedelia's house but I wasn't sure. He did go to her house after the Season 2 bloodbath after all....I don't remember those cliffs or that location from any prior episode.  But my memory is not what it used to be...Help?  

 

That was Hannibal's house. He actually has property all over the world, although they haven't talked about it in the show.

[catrox14]

 

No, that's our little nod to the audience that perhaps Hannibal could have survived that cliff dive. She's sitting at the table with her leg on the table and she's looking absolutely terrified, and she grabs the fork and hides it under her napkin and waits for whoever's going to return. This woman still has some fight in her. We don't know if Hannibal is indeed serving her her leg, or is it Hannibal's uncle Robertus, or Lady Murasaki, or is it Will Graham?

 

See, I don't think that really answers anything. A 'little nod' could mean anything.  That's like saying it's an easter egg. It's there for the fun of it but doesn't necessarily mean anything to the actual narrative in the end.

 

Is it a nod only in Bedalia's addled mind? Is it something that actually happened? Or just a ponderance of what could happen that never did?

[Snookums]

That was Hannibal's house. He actually has property all over the world, although they haven't talked about it in the show.

 

 

Yes, Hannibal bragged to Will that he had brought both Abigail and Miriam Lass there in the past to be alone with them. It was his way of saying I was ahead of you then and I'm ahead of you now, don't think anything's different.

[Crossbow]

Yes, Hannibal bragged to Will that he had brought both Abigail and Miriam Lass there in the past to be alone with them. It was his way of saying I was ahead of you then and I'm ahead of you now, don't think anything's different.

 

He's so far ahead, he had a safety net installed under the bluff. :D

[Fen]

See, I don't think that really answers anything. A 'little nod' could mean anything.  That's like saying it's an easter egg. It's there for the fun of it but doesn't necessarily mean anything to the actual narrative in the end.

 

Is it a nod only in Bedalia's addled mind? Is it something that actually happened? Or just a ponderance of what could happen that never did?

 

From what I've read in other interviews, he means a little hint to the viewers that one or both of Hannibal and Will survived.  It would play out from there if/when season 4 or a film ever arrives.

[Crossbow]

You guys, they even TOLD us the cliff was a "bluff." They're sooooo not dead.

[Captanne]

And with all the comparisons to Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls......http://www.penlenspaintbrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Reichenbach-Falls-with-label-1024x682.jpg

[TobinAlbers]

I'm so slow, but I just got that both Hannibal and Will had play wives that were substitutes for each other and were props in the empty lives they were trying to convince themselves they could survive in: Bedelia for Hannibal in part 1 of the season and Molly for Will in part 2 of the season.

 

I guess that's why Hannibal was picking at Molly so much for Will because he had already gone through that crap with Bedelia and while he was fond of her, he was never in love with her and he knew it and Bedelia bitterly knew it. Hannibal was impatient with Will pulling the sheet over his eyes and attempting to do something they both knew wasn't built to last.

 

Will really wanted to believe that he had the real deal with Molly but at the first (albeit heavy) test of their relationship, she's ruined for Will and the illusion just shattered.

 

Man, there were a lot of things going on in that final embrace plunge for Will and Hannibal off that cliff; Will was literally and figuratively embracing his dark side and accepting all parts of himself in embracing Hannibal AND it's in death that he and Hannibal can be together forever but not hurt anyone anymore.

 

Is it weird that I was kind of rooting for Francis over Hannibal and Will? I took solace that it took the both of them to take him down. Francis was a crazy beast in being able to throw around Hannibal and Will so they both really did have to unite to have a chance in taking him out.

Edited August 31, 2015 by TobinAlbers

[Crossbow]

I don't think so - I don't think Molly was a play wife fro Will. I do think Molly represented that Will had finally gotten the hell out of Dodge, before Jack dragged him back in.

 

In one of the many interviews I read today, Fuller pointed out that as a gay man, he has only seen heterosexual male bonding from the outside. So, apparently this is how he thinks it looks...?

Edited August 31, 2015 by Crossbow

[Captanne]

TobinAlbers

Man, there were a lot of things going on in that final embrace plunge for Will and Hannibal off that cliff; Will was literally and figuratively embracing his dark side and accepting all parts of himself in embracing Hannibal AND it's in death that he and Hannibal can be together forever but not hurt anyone anymore.

 

Sing it.

[Lakewood27]

And oh my goodness, Will's flirty "please" to Hannibal in the cell. I love you Dancy.  While I'm fully happy to leave the kissing (and so much more) to fanfic, this kind of slow burn flirting is one of my favorite aspects to this show.  These two men (the characters I mean) really like each other.  They are at their very best and worst with each other.  It really is a beautiful thing to see come together.  From their first breakfast together to this final fall from grace, delightful.

Loved that scene. If anyone has a gif of Will's pretty "please", it would be much appreciated!