S03.E10: ...And The Woman Clothed In Sun

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Carvings symbolizing the Great Red Dragon, retrieved from crime scenes, help Will Graham and the FBI shed light on Francis Dolarhyde's disturbing psychology. Meanwhile, Dolarhyde finds ways to communicate directly with Hannibal Lecter  regarding his "becoming." Will feels his bond with Hannibal growing uncomfortably stronger, and seeks out Bedelia Du Maurier, the only other person who fully understands the complexities of such a relationship

[DeadlyEuphoric]

 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I kind of like that they did the phone scene the way it was done in Manhunter... Oh Hannibal, up to no good. When Hannibal and Will were talking about how Dolarhyde is choosing his victims, and how if Will doesn't figure it out soon, another family is likely to be killed off, little does Will realize Hannibal totally means the next family to be his...

 

Looks like Dolarhyde replaces Will as Hannibal's patient, and Will replaced Hannibal as Bedelia's patient. Wonder which new duo will succeed...

 

Loved Bedelia/Will scenes. I like it when Will is being bitchy. His silences do say a lot though. He DID miss Hannibal, he just can't help himself. Bedelia pretty much told Will to kill Dolarhyde when he gets the chance. She sure encourages people to kill other's a lot. She was also encouraging Hannibal to kill Will.  I did like that she asked if Molly knew how intimate Will was with Hannibal. I assume "She knows enough", is code for "nope, not at all, as if I'd tell her, I can't even really admit it to myself yet".

 

I am kind of disappointed, I half expected Hannibal to sniff Bedelia on Will, would have liked to see his reaction to that... But I guess he didn't visit Hannibal the same day, or by now has learned to take a shower before going to see the guy, just in case.

 

 

Dolarhyde throwing Will around... Reminded me of Loki getting owned by Hulk.

 

 

The story of how Bedelia killed her patient was a let-down (I always thought Hannibal sent one of his dangerous patients to her to see who would kill who), kind of, though I guess it shows how cruel she can be and how she is able to weasel herself out of any responsibility in any situation. From what I understand, she pretty much killed that guy for no good reason other than she decided he was better off dead and still somehow manages to claim the incident as something "done" to her (Hannibal manipulated the situation, the patient attacked me)!  Part of me thinks, she killed him because he was suspicious of Hannibal (guess it is possible Hannibal sent the guy to her to see what she'd do regarding his suspicions...).

Edited August 7, 2015 by DeadlyEuphoric

[Tippi Blevins]

Damn, I thought Will and Bedelia were going to cat fight over who was the better "bride" to Hannibal.

 

Also, why did these two episodes have such similar titles?

Edited August 7, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[kmm49]

What the Hell was the point of the tiger scene?

 

I'd rather see crazy serial killer than his strange scenes with Reba. I'm just not interested in them at all. She's still the most trusting woman ever! Too bad they don't have any sexual chemistry. It kind of ruined the Dolarhyde character for me and I don't find him nearly as interesting as I did in the first episode when we were introduced to him.

 

It's so *strange* how easy it is for Hannibal to receive and return calls. They've got him behind glass and are clearly afraid of him but they let him talk to anyone especially since he's not helping the FBI in any official capacity.

Edited August 8, 2015 by kmm49

[mledawn]

I loved the Bedelia and Will scenes, I loved their snarky repartee. It was just like two ex-lovers of the same man, chirping each other about their respective relationships.

 

The scene with the tiger loses a bit of continuity because of the tight timeline on the show, and that's too bad. We haven't been shown enough development of the Reba-D relationship to warm to them as a couple, IMO. She just randomly calls him D and I don't recall (on the show) any lead-up to that. Honestly, all I could think about during the sex scenes was how on earth this sheltered dude even lasting a minute with this woman - and it took me out of the scene a bit. Reba may not be able to see HIM but he can see HER and Rutina is FIT.

 

When Will was tossed by Dolarhyde, I thought about this forum where someone posted a (tumblr?) link describing how tough Will is *supposed* to be, but Hugh Dancy's Will doesn't seem to have the same tough-guy heft as William Peterson.

I do like how the Will-Dolarhyde encounter moves things along, though.

[Tippi Blevins]

How does Francis even have access to that tiger? And then the vet just leaves the two of them alone while the tiger is anesthetized? I mean, as a date, that certainly would have worked on me, but it just seems so weird and random. Did he lie about his credentials like he did with the museum?

 

Speaking of which. All the grisly murders on the show and I haven't had to watch through my fingers. But Francis devouring the art? AAAAAH! Stop! Stopppp! Noooo! I almost fainted.

 

You'd think there would be dedicated security cameras around Hannibal's lair. He's an evil super-genius. They should be keeping eyes on him all the time.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Tippi Blevins

[mledawn]

There should be dedicated security cameras in that vault. I had to ffwd him eating the art, it gave me the willies.

[redfish]

It was creepy how Bedelia equated empathy with cruelty. She's capable of killing as Hannibal, except she was smart enough not to join in the kill with Hannibal in Italy as plausible deniability when the Feds catch him.

 

loved the Bedelia and Will scenes, I loved their snarky repartee. It was just like two ex-lovers of the same man, chirping each other about their respective relationships.

ITA. And Bedelia couldn't resist throwing back at Will how her relationship to Hannibal was not as "passionate"  as Will's and that she learned her lesson to let it go.

[kechara]

I think they cut out too much from the books and movies which would have tied things like the tiger, and Reba etc together. Knowing the whole backstory, I expected these things, but if I hadn't, it would have been really random.

Still not loving the Dolarhyde/ Reba dynamic. No chemistry? Not sure

[Captanne]

Just watched it.

 

My love for this show now knows no bounds.

 

Just fabulous.

 

Except for:  Bedelia SUCKS on so many levels.  Her.  ee. nun. cee. ay. shun.  makes.  me.  cray.  zee.  STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT.  STOP.  IT.

 

Dr. Du Maurier:  Worst psychiatrist ever.  Worse, even, than Hannibal and he's a serial killing cannibal.  So, that's saying something.

 

Also?  More weird sex.  It's just sex, Fuller.  Deal with it.  Two people, tab A into slot B, *epiphany*, sleep.  No kaleidoscopes.  No water music with strings and then weird Disney cherubs.  Just sex.  Jesus, see a shrink, man.*

 

Otherwise -- perfect.  Loved every second of it.  

 

I'm sure I'll have more to say later after it sinks in.

 

*Without a doubt -- the sex in this episode as opposed to the sex in the other episode is, fairly, a bit more "out there".  For Francis Dolarhyde "see a shrink" takes it to a whole new level.  However, during the sex (before the Lady in the Sun and the Giant Tim Curry Legend Satan Dragon Thing, admittedly)  it was just sex.  I rolled my eyes at the Disney Cherubs singing until the Sun and Tim Curry bit.  Yeah.  I give Fuller that -- then it gets weird.

 

 

 

ETA:  Oh yeah, I remember -- about that tiger.  What a neat scene.  That actress is perfectly cast -- what a timeless beauty.  And, I do feel chemistry between the two of them.  I do.  That was cool watching Dolarhyde watch her as she felt the power of the beast.  

 

Remember when folks said that Will's unbelievable boat trip to Florence was actually within their realm of "life adventures"?  Well, this is true, I live near a Zoo that has tigers.  One of my friends (we're part of a cat-sitting support thingie) is a primatologist.  Just the other day she took me "behind the scenes" in the large cat exhibit.  I was within a meter of six lions and three tigers -- awake and roaring.  It was amazing.  I wouldn't want to be any nearer and, believe you me, there were strong bars between me and the Kimbas.

 

So -- not too beyond belief. All Dolarhyde needed was a "friend in the business."

 

To be fair, it might have been nice to give us a throwaway line -- "My neighbor is a curator" or something.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Captanne

[kmm49]

Except for:  Bedelia SUCKS on so many levels.  Her.  ee. nun. cee. ay. shun.  makes.  me.  cray.  zee.  STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT.  STOP.  IT.

YES! Who talks like that? My problem with Bedelia's she's so unemotional and her dialogue's so stilted. She was much more interesting during season two. She's irrelevant and reminds me of the first half of this season's Will. But...I'm loving Will now!

 

To be fair, it might have been nice to give us a throwaway line -- "My neighbor is a curator" or something.

 

I just assumed Dolarhyde bribed the guy some kind of way. It didn't bother me too much that it wasn't explained. I guess I just didn't understand the tiger scene. I'm assuming it was supposed to be sexual but it didn't appeal to me. I guess her feeling around the tiger's mouth made him turned on or has something to do with his easily fixable cleft lip. Just seemed off. Maybe they should've established the Francis/Reba relationship a few more episodes. The blow job scene came off awkward on her part but the bed scene was fine.

 

Eating the art scene plus Will's confrontation was the best parts of this episode. I didn't realize Will got to see Francis before he gets caught or whatever ends up happening to him.

 

Not enough Hannibal and Will just can't stay away! When does he fit Molly and his stepson in the picture?

Edited August 8, 2015 by kmm49

[Tippi Blevins]

I thought Reba making them cocktails in his house seemed weird. At first I thought they were at her place.

 

About Francis getting the art. In the book, what's his thought process? How did he plan to do that without getting caught? Or was eating the painting kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing? He was seen by multiple people. He has a very distinctive look. They'd be able to describe him to police even if, much like with Hannibal's cell, there's an inexplicable lack of surveillance.

[kmm49]

I thought Reba making them cocktails in his house seemed weird.



Yes, so did I. Maybe because they don't seem like the martini type. When does he have time to shop for martini ingredients? She sure does know her way around his house after one episode. Are we supposed to assume some time's past between episodes?

 

How did he plan to do that without getting caught?

 

Especially since he knocked out the woman who showed him the painting. He's getting really sloppy.

Edited August 8, 2015 by kmm49

[Bec]

I haven't read the book, but I vaguely remember a tiger scene in the movie with Ed Norton, so I guess it's canon. The explanation was that Dolarhyde did a project for the zoo that required some special film (remember him asking Reba about film for nocturnal creatures last episode?) so letting him bring Reba on a tiger-touching date is the zoo returning the favor.

 

I thought it was very sweet and thoughtful. And Reba's reaction to it was touching, both here and in the movie.

 

And everyone at the lab calls Dolarhyde "D". So Reba does, too.

 

I don't recall Will meeting Dolarhyde at the museum like that in the movie. What I do remember from the movie is that the reason Dolarhyde ate the painting was because he was trying to stop. Stop killing people, stop transforming into the Great Red Dragon, stop everything (because he's in looooove).

 

I can kind of see Du Maurier's point of view. Sometimes trying to help causes more suffering and it's more merciful to "crush". Crush quickly and it ends suffering instantly. I hope this doesn't mean I'm a psycho. Hee. The thing that separates her from Lector is that she doesn't get some evil glee out of it. And of course she doesn't get all worked up like Will. Crushing is simply the course of action that makes the most sense to her very analytical self. She feels nothing about it. (Maybe weirdly) I do find this interesting.

[kmm49]

I haven't read the book, but I vaguely remember a tiger scene in the movie with Ed Norton, so I guess it's canon. The explanation was that Dolarhyde did a project for the zoo that required some special film (remember him asking Reba about film for nocturnal creatures last episode?) so letting him bring Reba on a tiger-touching date is the zoo returning the favor.

 

It definitely would've helped if the show had more time to explain all this background on Francis and Reba. It feels rushed and it's thanks to the time it took to catch Hannibal and close out the Verger storyline.

Edited August 8, 2015 by kmm49

[Captanne]

We saw this rush to the end coming a mile away.  With the art school wanking and the "boat to Florence" shit, and GOD KNOWS anything about Chiyoh (that used up a whole precious hour of screen time) -- the end of this series would be a bit of a train wreck smush.  (Even if it wasn't cancelled -- getting Red Dragon into 8 episodes under this sort of regime is a challenge.)

 

Another thing about Bedelia just being awful -- (as if we didn't know already from her insane behaviour in Florence) -- the way she handled the tongue swallower was just horrific, "I'd give you the same Rx Dr. Lecter did," my response was, "Well, fuck you, too.  There are plenty of Rx's out there if the current Pfizer stock quote is any indication, and saying it the way you did and to whom you did was just being a first class c***."  I would have walked straight out of her office.  Isn't that what tongue guy was doing before, well, tongue?

 

Oy, she's awful.   

[arjumand]

We saw this rush to the end coming a mile away.  With the art school wanking and the "boat to Florence" shit, and GOD KNOWS anything about Chiyoh (that used up a whole precious hour of screen time) -- the end of this series would be a bit of a train wreck smush.  (Even if it wasn't cancelled -- getting Red Dragon into 8 episodes under this sort of regime is a challenge.)

 

 

That's why is I was so frustrated by all the Italy stuff - I always hated it, ever since I read Hannibal the book, and realised that I'd have to quit him. To me, it was always pretentious tosh, and the real meat of the story lay in Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs. All that "Hannibal makes a better Italian professor than the Italians because reasons" never worked on me, maybe because I've studied Italian at my local University, with one or two Italian nationality professors, and I know how their minds work. To me, it was always like when a tv show or a movie has a storyline about the best song ever, or the best book ever - when you actually hear the song or read parts of the book, it never lives up to the viewer's expectations. It works slightly in a book, because you're building stuff up with your imagination, but on screen? Nope.

 

So now, after having wasted best part of a season on Hannibal and Bedelia go to Italy! we're left with a couple of episodes to wrap up Red Dragon, which could so have taken a whole season - the last shot could have been of Clarice Starling running through the woods at Quantico, and in order not to break copyright or whatever, we would have a nameless woman training in an FBI trainee tracksuit - zoom out, show Jack Crawford's car driving along the road to Quantico, and cut to credits.

 

But whatever - Fuller chose not to do that, and now, things which in Manhunter and Red Dragon seemed to flow so well, just seem episodic and bitty. Someone already said upthread that the tiger (tiger, burning bright) was because Dolarhyde supplied them with night-vision film, and he was eating the painting because he didn't want to kill Reba. I loved his vision of her "clothed in sun", that was pretty amazing. And I seem to remember from the book that everyone called him Mr D. because he tried to say his first name as little as possible (Francis), as it was so hard for him to pronounce without lisping.

 

I too felt there was too much Bedelia in this episode, just as I felt there was too much Abigail in the last one - there might have been enough time to deal with the Red Dragon as well as Italy if Fuller didn't spend so much of it lingering on characters he made up (Bedelia) or ones which he inflated (Abigail).

 

OT and shallow - why do casting directors for Red Dragon have to ruin hot actors for me (she said, sulkily)? First Ralph Fiennes, now Richard Armitage? Come on. I suppose it's to make clear how much Dolarhyde's "disfigured face" is mainly in his head, and everyone else just sees the handsome man with a scar.

[penguinnj]

My Bedelia love was "crushed" this episode- and I find that very sad, because I really liked her as a character.  2 reasons as far as I can tell.  Making money on your fake drugging, Lydia Fell, I'm just a victim act with her lecture (hands off Will, please) just left me cold.  I thought she had more to her than this- even if it meant publishing a "tell all" of how she survived Hannibal Lecter after her death to avoid arrest.  Feeding the I'm a victim lie made sense in getting her out of custody, but perpetuating and profiting from it seems petty and I can't believe her ego would allow her to do that.  

Second- she killed Spock!  I thought she was a better psychiatrist than that.  She has to have seen non-brilliant serial killer type patients before- did she want to kill them all?  Was this acting out after years of frustration?  It just made no sense, to me, with the buildup and hints they dropped about this patient.  Almost like they were trying to use the "garden variety manic depressive.  Tedious, very tedious- therapy was going nowhere" stuff from canon with a twist but I don't think it worked with her.  Perhaps because her buildup took so long I really was expecting more.

Edited August 8, 2015 by penguinnj

[Captanne]

arjumand, I think the book Hannibal had the crew running off to Italy because Thomas Harris became interested in the real Il Mostro story playing out.  I read the book recently and the authors (an American journalist and the Italian police officer on the case) frequently refer to visits by Harris who was researching his book.

 

So, Florence and Italy are completely legitimate if not necessary in the telling of Hannibal as Harris wrote it.

 

Personally, I just don't like the way Fuller chose to drag it out and selfishly luxuriate in all that Florence is and represents to modern western civilization.  Yes, Hannibal would have and did, but Fuller's method was detrimental to the rest of the narrative.  It's one of a few artistic disagreements I have with the choices made by the show runners.  

Edited August 8, 2015 by Captanne

[arjumand]

arjumand, I think the book Hannibal had the crew running off to Italy because Thomas Harris became interested in the real Il Mostro story playing out.  I read the book recently and the authors (an American journalist and the Italian police officer on the case) frequently refer to visits by Harris who was researching his book.

 

So, Florence and Italy are completely legitimate if not necessary in the telling of Hannibal as Harris wrote it.

 

 

 

Oh, I knew about the Il Mostro obsession - I remember reading accounts of the trial, where journalists said they saw Thomas Harris in the Italian equivalent of the gallery.

 

I just hated the whole thing, even then.

 

And I don't see why, if Fuller could just invent Bedelia, inflate Abigail's part beyond recognition, bring in not!Clarice and have her kidnapped by Hannibal, and treated with the kind of contempt he never had for the actual Clarice, and change and twist other parts of the novels in a brilliant way, that he couldn't have left out or severely curtailed the whole Italy storyline. I almost feel it was the death knell for the show, to be honest - in seasons 1 and 2 the show had achieved a certain momentum, which ground to a halt in Florence.

 

But that's just my opinion. I get frustrated when show-runners seem to self-sabotage (do not ask me about Sarah Connor Chronicles).

 

Personally, I just don't like the way Fuller chose to drag it out and selfishly luxuriate in all that Florence is and represents to modern western civilization.  Yes, Hannibal would have and did, but Fuller's method was detrimental to the rest of the narrative.  It's one of a few artistic disagreements I have with the choices made by the show runners.

 

 

Oh, absolutely. 100%.

[Tippi Blevins]

I wish they had made it evident or at least hinted that the reason D ate the painting was because he was trying to stop killing. He's assigned great significance to that illustration and thinks destroying it will destroy the root of his transformation. It would also explain why he was more than a bit careless. He was desperate to stop himself hurting his new girlfriend. 

 

But what I got instead was that he, like some kind of murderous Cookie Monster, just had to OM NOM NOM NOM the source of his obsession. Where Hannibal ate his sister, D eats the painting.

[Captanne]

OMG, I actually had to strain my brain (not literally) to remember not!Clarice.  

[kmm49]

I wish they had made it evident or at least hinted that the reason D ate the painting was because he was trying to stop killing.

I would've never thought this so some background would've been helpful. My interpretation was he was trying to make himself stronger/continue his transformation.

 

So, Florence and Italy are completely legitimate if not necessary in the telling of Hannibal as Harris wrote it.

 

I loved some of the Florence scenes. It wasn't that that I objected to just the dragging out of the storyline. It's now impacting the Red Dragon storyline pace which's more enjoyable/watchable.

Edited August 9, 2015 by kmm49

[Primetimer]

The 'healing' power of touch in Hannibal.

Read the story

[AimingforYoko]

Damn, Bedelia needs a glass cage of her own. She's as sick a twist as Hannibal, just with better impulse control.

Francis is a strong boy, he tossed Will like a shot put.

[Neurochick]

Well if Francis really wanted to stop killing he'd turn himself in to the police. See, easy peasy.

[TobinAlbers]

Huh. I thought the patient that Bedelia killed had been triggered to swallow his own tongue by whatever HANNIBAL did during the phototherapy sessions. He placed some kind of buried trigger like with Anna Chlumsky's character. When the patient began choking, Bedelia went with crushing instead of saving him. Sad and cruel death for one of the few people to see through Hannibal and Bedelia's people suits to know something was up. He just underestimated just how messed up they were.

I'm in on the Armitage/Wesley Rebahyde train just like I was with the Fiennes/Watson. There really is tragedy with them. He met her too late. His having her touch him only when she was asleep and then cuddling next to her was so bittersweet. This is the same man violently killing families including children and then placing shards of glass inside the mothers and having sex with their corpses. It's just....crazy sad.

Impressive: Francis tossed Will like a doll.

Even more impressive: Will bounced up like it was nothing and was off and running. After being thrown off a moving train, shot, and getting his head sawed open that toss must've felt like nothing.

Bryan Fuller knows how to do some artsy sex scenes and obviously loves pushing the envelope with Standards and Practices. Reba's 'Did I shock you?' Was as much her asking Francis as it was Bryan asking the audience. And the way Francis just hauled her up and went to the bedroom post haste? Swoon worthy. Even if he is a serial killer.

[Tippi Blevins]

Knowing some of the book stuff now, his eating the art made more sense.

 

Plus, when he was making that call to Hannibal, he watched it like an outsider. It's like he's not just becoming the dragon, but seeing it as a separate entity from himself, at times. Then when he ran up to the attic after he couldn't find Reba, as if he expected to find the dragon had taken her there.

[bmoore4026]

Oh, my God, that tiger scene was beautiful.  At least, I thought so.

 

Too bad Bedelia isn't going to pay for the shit she's done, at least in court.

 

And they went full-on Boris Vellejo with Dolarhyde as The Red Dragon, I see.

[MisterGlass]

There are moments in this that I liked, but overall this was not the most cohesive episode.  In particular, the special effects visuals felt forced and less elegant than other work in the series.  I would rather have the slow motion footage of snails than the dragon depiction in Hannibal's office.  I know it was Francis's hallucination, but I would have liked it better as a shadow on the wall. 

 

Also, the relationship between Francis and Reba has not won me over yet.  I wish they would have a conversation.  I know that Francis doesn't like to talk and Reba does, but it would be better if she could convince him to participate a little, so that they get to know one another.  I think having Dr. DuMaurier's patient history in the same episode as some pivotal moments for Francis may have short changed them both.

 

That said, I continue to enjoy what Richard Armitage is doing with Francis.  Having him sneak into Hannibal's old office and call from there for their 'session' was a nice touch.  The reverence for the Blake painting was creepy and intense.  He shows both the crazed and moderately contained aspects of Francis well.  Encountering Will was a surprise and throwing him against the wall was scary.

 

Somebody spent some real time outfitting Francis's home.  It is as antique and Bates-esque as anyone could wish, right down to the martini glasses.

 

The story of how Bedelia killed her patient was a let-down (I always thought Hannibal sent one of his dangerous patients to her to see who would kill who), kind of, though I guess it shows how cruel she can be and how she is able to weasel herself out of any responsibility in any situation.

 

Yes, I thought it was going to tell us more about Hannibal when it was really about Bedelia indulging her instinct.  I suppose she did try to warn Patient X subtly that pursing charges against Hannibal wouldn't end well.  And if she hadn't killed him Hannibal would have.  But perhaps what this did was prove Bedelia's psychopathy to Hannibal, and that's why he continued to pursue sessions with her.
 

Also, why did these two episodes have such similar titles?

There are different versions of the painting with similar titles.

[MrsR]

Actually the Florence scenes have everything to do with Harris' obsession with The Divine Comedy  by Dante Alighieri which is what the trilogy of books is based on. 

Red Dragon is The Inferno, Silence is The Purgatorio, and Hannibal is The Paradiso. A story that starts in hell and ends in paradise.

 

One of the opening epigrams of the Red dragon is a Blake quote from his poem The Divine Image.

 

Cruelty has a human heart,
And Jealousy a human face;
Terror the human form divine,
And secrecy the human dress.

The human dress is forged iron,
The human form a fiery forge,
The human face a furnace seal'd,
The human heart its hungry gorge.

 

Harris tells the reader right from the get go that this is all a riff on The Divine Comedy. Cause The Divine Comedy was the most influential piece of literature of the second millenium. Blake loved him, Milton, Boccaccio, Eliott and on and on. 

 

The Divine Comedy was the first best seller in medieval pop culture. So Harris took the first best seller and riffed it into his own best seller.  Hannibal has drawn the Duomo as "seen from the Belvedere"  and hangs it in his cell. Buffalo Bill's first kills in Belvedere Ohio. Dolarhyde refers to Hannibal as a "Renaissance Prince." So Hannibal becomes a Dante scholar in Florence. He meets Clarice in hell and ends up with her in Buenos Aires, "beautiful sky" Harris' stand in for the Paradise.

 

The Il Mostro case was just a lucky break he caught while he was planning the third book.

 

Dolarhyde brings Reba to the tiger room because he wouldn't let her touch his face. It's his apology to let her touch the tiger and of course it links into his Blake fixation.

Edited August 9, 2015 by MrsR

[freebie]

That phone call was so ridiculous. Why would any of Hannibal's communications with the outside world be un-monitored? Having the staff member step out of the room to ... what?... give a crazy (per his diagnosis) murderer his privacy, made zero sense. And then, OK, Hannibal gets the weekend secretary, not the regular gal, but you would think every single staffer (not to mention most sentient beings not living under rocks in the greater Baltimore area) would have heard the name "Will Graham" and would have thought ... hmm ... this seems like an odd request for Dr. Chilton, why not call the FBI for that kind of information? Plus, who the hell gives out information from their boss' contacts file, particularly when that boss is a psychiatrist working at a hospital for the criminally insane?!? If that's really how Hannibal gets Dolarhyde to Will and his family, Fuller might as well just hand Hannibal the keys to the Oval Office and the codes for the nuclear launch in the final episode. I just can't with this one. Ugh.

[kmm49]

I'm in on the Armitage/Wesley Rebahyde train just like I was with the Fiennes/Watson. There really is tragedy with them. He met her too late. His having her touch him only when she was asleep and then cuddling next to her was so bittersweet. This is the same man violently killing families including children and then placing shards of glass inside the mothers and having sex with their corpses. It's just....crazy sad.

I can't come close to feeling sorry for him. He's crazy and Reba's too naïve for her own good. I can't buy into the fact that he would've never became a serial killer if only he met her earlier. The love of a good woman would've changed his path in life's crazy.

 

That phone call was so ridiculous. Why would any of Hannibal's communications with the outside world be un-monitored?

I could see if he was working officially for the FBI but that's never been established, right? Will's just coming to get his opinion on the Dolarhyde case so he can get into the serial killer's head.

 

Also, great job by Armitage on the painting eating scene. It managed to be creepy without it being creepy if you know what I mean. It still gave me shivers.

Edited August 9, 2015 by kmm49

[MisterGlass]

My assumption has been that whenever the attendant leaves the room for Hannibal to make or receive a call, it is on the understanding that he will be speaking with his lawyer, with whom he has the right to privacy.  That's why Francis identified himself as Hannibal's lawyer on the call, and went so far as to fake the caller ID.

 

Meeting Reba earlier could not have stopped Francis from becoming this, but it might have put him closer to getting professional help.  His isolation is what has allowed him to get this far in the wrong direction.

[Actionmage]

Impressions after the first watch:

 

* Hannibal, being naughty is going to make things much more unpleasant. You are smart, just quit buying the hype. Also, the saying about if you aren't part of the solution, Doctor.

*Bedelia: Hon, IA with the poster upthread that was disappointed in you this episode.  Not just monetizing The Lie, but playing God with Neal. Which leads to the question- was this the first game of Patient Tennis you and Hannibal played? You are a lying liar who lies; why should any word out of your mouth be taken as gospel? I love Gillian Anderson, but I have gone off Dr. DuMarier.

*Reba: Man, Rutina Wellsley is gorgeous and, to be perfectly shallow, I loved the peach/apricot gown Francis envisioned her wearing. The tiger scene was lovely, with the correct amount of creepy. Was it me or did the orange get more intense as the scene played? The tiger looked uniformly golden yellow apart from the stripes, but the orange got more intense. I enjoyed that. It was a really intense segment, but it was very cool.

*Will: Dude, you have to get the secret stash of Go Bags and the fake IDs for the wife and kid now! What? This hasn't been part of a contingency plan? Do you want every creep that Jack sends to you to find Molly and Walter and the pack?  Please tell me you have a plan to protect your family. Please?  Also, just agree to disagree with Bedelia, okay? You want to prove you are better than she is? Quit nyah-nyahing her about Hannibal. Stop drama queening about Florence; if the FBI or the Italian authorities had the evidence, she would not be doing lectures to packed rooms.  I understand the frustration, but quit messing with that old wound, Graham.

 

I missed Zeller and Jimmy, and even that divine rumble of Jack's. Still, It was a cool episode, to me, due to the different forces being highlighted. ITA that the reason Francis ate the painting wasn't clear at all, but the creepiness of the fact that it was eaten carried me past the why, temporarily, and into sheer amazement at the act, the actor being all in, and the entirety of that scene. I was expecting Will's guide/docent to be hurt due to startling Francis, but the Francis/Will confrontation was enough.

 

I did not see a preview, but then again, NBC hasn't been showing any, so I may not have "missed" it.

[kmm49]

Meeting Reba earlier could not have stopped Francis from becoming this, but it might have put him closer to getting professional help.  His isolation is what has allowed him to get this far in the wrong direction.

Unfortunately, serial killers are rarely found ahead of time. He doesn't communicate. He's obviously a loner. So who else's in his life but Reba to help him and as we've seen she's come across as totally naïve? Now maybe if a psychiatrist like Bedelia could've gotten to him first but I doubt he would've gotten professional help from anyone. I think it's even a little farfetched that he's left Reba this far into his life.

Edited August 9, 2015 by kmm49

[Bruinsfan]

It definitely would've helped if the show had more time to explain all this background on Francis and Reba. It feels rushed and it's thanks to the time it took to catch Hannibal and close out the Verger storyline.

Yeah, if I weren't familiar with the book and other adaptations, Dolarhyde's actions would have made no sense. Both movies managed to convey it clearly in two hours, I don't see why Fuller can't with six hours to play with. More character development, less artsy sex scenes that lack only "Love to Love You, Baby" playing in the background.

 

I'm not entirely convinced that they used a real tiger in filming that scene. It basically looked like a day-glo plush beanbag.

[freebie]

 

That's why Francis identified himself as Hannibal's lawyer on the call, and went so far as to fake the caller ID.

Yes, but this was a call Hannibal initiated. And the call went to his attorney's voice mail before he did ... whatever it was ... to terminate that call and get the operator on the line. Even if, in the show universe, a prisoner's telephone conversation with his attorney is privileged (and that's not always the case in the real world), there would still be a window of opportunity to at least confirm that the call went through to the intended recipient. For example, the person placing the call for Hannibal would stay on the line until the lawyer picked up, then ask the person to verify his/her identity before turning the call over to Hannibal. In this case, if that had happened, Hannibal would not have had continued access to the phone because the call would have been terminated as soon as the attorney failed to pick up.

 

Every jurisdiction and facility has its own rules, but in many prisons (and state hospitals housing perpetrators of violent crimes), someone is listening in to the inmates' calls and/or the calls are recorded, even the calls between inmate and attorney. A number of courts (but certainly not all) have ruled that prisoners don't actually have expectations of privacy based on attorney-client privilege for calls made on police, jail or prison phones, especially when there is information available to the prisoner (like a sign posted on the wall) that their calls, even with counsel, may be monitored. Prisons also need to factor in the nature of the crime committed -- restrictions on calls are not prohibited, especially if the inmate is abusing the privilege (e.g., stalker calling his victim). For an inmate with restrictions on phone use, his/her attorney would just have to show up in person.

[Shriekingeel]

I never quite believed in the Dolarhyde-Reba romance of both films, but here, oh my. No straight guy, serial killer or not, is turning down Rutina Wesley in his lap.

[Slovenly Muse]

Wow, I am loving this story so far! I know the Dolarhyde/Reba stuff seems rushed and weird, but it was easily my LEAST favourite thing about the book, and it never really made sense to me or worked for me in any incarnation. Rushing through it now is actually helping a lot. Fuller has been remarkably faithful in his adaptation of the book, but in the past has always put a unique twist on the story. The moment we saw Reba "clothed in sun" I GOT this story for the first time. Seeing Reba as not just a potential victim of his, but THE chosen victim of Blake's Dragon, makes his fear for her life and his fear of becoming what he is becoming, so much more real. He was afraid for her when he drove her home, but as for eating the painting, I like that Fuller left his motives unclear. Here, could it read as a kind of compulsion, a neccessary step in his becoming. But the interpretation from the book, that he is attempting to conquer/defeat the Great Red Dragon by destroying it's source (the original painting) is still very present. I got a chill when he bared his murder dentures at that painting and started tearing into it like he bit his victims. In that, we got a taste of his thinking. I imagine we'll explore the reasons for/consequences of that next week!

 

 

I thought she was a better psychiatrist than that.  She has to have seen non-brilliant serial killer type patients before- did she want to kill them all?  Was this acting out after years of frustration?  It just made no sense, to me, with the buildup and hints they dropped about this patient.  Almost like they were trying to use the "garden variety manic depressive.  Tedious, very tedious- therapy was going nowhere" stuff from canon with a twist but I don't think it worked with her.  Perhaps because her buildup took so long I really was expecting more.

 

Funny, I had the opposite reaction! We'd been told so little about this patient and this incident that we took Bedelia's word that he attacked her (and many of us equated him with Miggs, the only other character in Harris canon who swallowed his own tongue, lending to the idea that he was some violent nutjob). Now, as she is discussing Hannibal's tactics with Will, we see just how cunningly they were used on her. Hannibal sent her that patient, but not to attack her so that she would kill him in self-defence. Rather he was "progammed" to need help, and in trying to help him, she killed him. I'm not even convinced that it was intentional on her part, my read is that she really was trying to save his life, and things went horribly wrong. Hannibal's "alchemy of lies and truth" convinced her that she had killed him because she's a natural murderer and needed to side with Hannibal to avoid discovery, but along the way continued to unravel the layers of his manipulations until she could see how she'd been set up, which gave her the insight and skill to travel with him and avoid becoming dinner! And to see just how entangled Will has become in Hannibal's manipulations so she can warn him against being played the same way she was (trying to save/protect something vulnerable, and falling into a trap). So much of her character, relationship with Hannibal, and role on the show makes  A LOT more sense now! And the revelation that she didn't kill a psycho in self-defense, but rather an innocent man she should have been saving is a pretty huge bombshell!

 

So excited to see how the rest of the season plays out! This is the most I have ever enjoyed the Red Dragon story!

[Snookums]

Also, why did these two episodes have such similar titles?

 

 

I wondered that too! I assumed PreviouslyTV had mislabeled one.

 

As I understand what I saw r.e., Hannibal getting phone privileges, Francis rigged up the phone system both at exchange in the hospital and Hannibal's old office (And he got into both places how...and knows how to do that in the first place NOT LISTENING LA LA LA) and then used said patch job to ring through as Hannibal's attorney, whom Lector is legally required to be allowed to talk to with no cameras or listening devices present. Hannibal's pretty impressed by his latest fanboy's level of worship and settles down for a nice long "fuck with the poor bastard's mind" session--hey, it's been three years! Like Will and Alana before him, Francis has no idea how much he is being used and how very, very little Hannibal cares about him, even as he fawns and blithers into Lector's unseen smirk.

 

This is where Bedelia differs from Hannibal's other acolytes, and she's working 24-7 to prove it. Where others fled (Will) or devoted their lives to guard duty (Alana) or tried to become a perfect daughter (Abigail), Bedelia takes things in a almost Chilton-esque direction, but with class and style rather then crassness. She doesn't write a book, she gives exclusive lectures that are applauded. She doesn't visit Hannibal, she waits for his other boyfriend to come to her for a mutual claw-sharpening session. She may have understood Hannibal and felt helpless before his manipulations, but rather then become the scarred monster she's the untouched Bride--the one who danced with him, bathed in front of him, doctored his wounds, and got away clean. Hiding never made anybody safe from Hannibal Lector.

 

Her scene with Quinto underlines this. She understands what Hannibal's done to him (inducing seizure states with phototherapy and general head-fuckings-with) and because she understands Hannibal she just sits there and blandly undermines the guy because she's afraid of what will happen if she tries to actively intervene. She knows once Lector gets his claws in a person, that person is done for, and her empathy tells her that crushing is the quickest, easiest way.

 

When Quinto works himself into the seizure, she snaps to, as a doctor, and tries to help him by clearing his tongue out of his airway, but again, her survival instinct kicks in and--crush. Hannibal's "help" afterwards was a manipulation both ways--by accepting his intervention she's only confirming what they both knew all along: that she knows too much to be trusted to be a victim.  

 

Bedelia is basically Hannibal's Irene Adler--the equal who got away. 

[jeansheridan]

I love that Bedelia is also making a living off the Hannibal legend. She is so shameless and unbothered. I bet she sleeps fine at night. And touching Will so deliberately. Heh.

I liked Zachary Quinto for his energetic candor. We finally have a character who just calls them insane and wrong. His irritation with Bedelia was so correct. And Will being bitchy with her felt right too.

 

Two women have now called Will and Hannibal intimate. I love Fuller. I hope we get one last hug between them

 

I love seeing Will and Frances meet. Nice surprise.

 

I want to like Reba but it isn't working for me. Their scenes are too truncated and their conversations aren't working for me. She seems too healthy to be so needy. I like both actors separately but not together.

 

Finally, It was weird seeing Hannibal fake "charming" on the phone. That was almost word from word from the book. Just sounded weird.  "Dancing at her wedding" was an odd phrase that Hopkins sold.  Mads courtesy to the NOT!Barney guard rang much more true to the Mads version of Hannibal. 

 

For people wondering why Hannibal gets access to a phone, he is allowed to talk to his lawyer unmonitored which is why Francis used that ploy to call him.  Again, the show didn't establish this well, but we do have Will's experience from Season Two to draw upon.  There were certain situations when he couldn't be recorded legally.  The same applies for Hannibal. 

 

I still kind of hate his spacious cell and paneled walls.  Plus the locks on those doors don't exactly feel sturdy.  I do love the return to his office setting and seeing fantasy Hannibal talk to Francis like that.  Plus he gets to wear the suits again. 

Edited August 9, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Snookums]

(...or is the animal actually dead? Hit me in the comments; I was unclear about whether the tiger was still sleeping it off or the surgery went wrong, or what).

 

No, he's asleep. Anesthetic is creepy as hell for just that reason; it's an "unnatural" sleep, a suspension between life and death, and used when touch must be administered to animals/creatures that cannot tolerate it awake, or when the touch is so extreme it could not be survived by a conscious being.

 

as Sister Bedelia explains it all for Will.

 

Have I told you lately that I love you?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Snookums

[mertensia]

You could see the tiger breathing in one shot.

Oh Bedelia. Lying liar who lies. You do deserve to be eaten.

Poor Zachary Quinto; at least now we know what happens to rational people in this universe.

Hannibal gives off this scary vibe of "I'm incarcerated because I let you imprison me. I'll get out when I want to. And then you're an appetiser." I would never be one of his jailers.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Thanks, @Snookums!

[Chaos Theory]

I love Bedelia she is such a wiley little psychopath. Like all the others she hooked her wagon to the Hannibal train but as a surviving victim who saw behind the veil. I liked her explanation to Will on why she survived. Will is an empathic man who when he sees a hurt or weak animal he wants to save it.....she wants to crush it. As for the patient she killed I read it as a weak man that infuriated Bedelia who suddenly (like the bird in need of care) needed help and at first Bedelia did what anyone who do....try to help but in the end ended up crushing the poor little injured bird.

They did the tiger scene in Red Dragon. That was one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

NBC I know you have completely given up on the show but really no previews for next week is just cruel and evil. I have no interest m Blind Spot. Stop trying to make fetch happen,

Edited August 9, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[jeansheridan]

I can kind of see Du Maurier's point of view. Sometimes trying to help causes more suffering and it's more merciful to "crush". Crush quickly and it ends suffering instantly. I hope this doesn't mean I'm a psycho. Hee. The thing that separates her from Lector is that she doesn't get some evil glee out of it. And of course she doesn't get all worked up like Will. Crushing is simply the course of action that makes the most sense to her very analytical self. She feels nothing about it. (Maybe weirdly) I do find this interesting.

 

She's full of generally good (if not kind) advice which is why I like her.  She warned Jack fairly that Hannibal was in control.  She warned Hannibal that his person suit was slipping.  I really do love her as a Fuller creation.  She's fully realized in a way that Reba is not.  And the payoff we get is an awesome scene with her and Will sparring like bitchy exes.  I though it was great that Will takes off his glasses and squarely looks her in the eye.  He seems oddly comfortable around her.  No BS between these two.  They understand each other.

 

I mean, Will actually smiles at her.  He's not exactly trying to charm her.  Maybe disarm her in the office scene.  I just think it is striking that he looks about as healthy and handsome as he ever has in that scene with her.  Will is on his game, the wheels turning. 

 

Bedelia was the only highlight for for me however.  I'm just not into Francis which makes me sad because I love this actor.  I'm just not feeling him.  Three more eps, so maybe there's time.  I really, really wish they had made it more clear he was trying to protect Reba by eating the painting.  Otherwise it can be read as his need to "become" the dragon more.

 

Just wanted to add that I love Fuller for tossing in that Scientology line!  Probably the most positive public statement about them in quite some time.  For a show that generally avoids pop culture references, it humanized that character in one instant.  Zachary Quinto didn't have much to work with, but he made it count.  I sort of wish HE had been Francis now.  He has a similar look (probably part of Fuller's design). 

Edited August 9, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Tippi Blevins]

Thanks for the explanation about the similar titles. I've been so used to this show having food-related titles.

 

I snickered at Hannibal speaking the phone number. To get around the old "555" used in TV land, he uses the letters. It's like it was momentarily 1955 again or something. 

 

I wonder what they had Hugh Dancy standing on so that Will's reflection in the partition matched Hannibal's? 

 

When Bedelia said they'd both been Hannibal's brides, I was hoping Will would correct her. Ah ah, no I was his murder husband.

[Bruinsfan]

Hannibal gives off this scary vibe of "I'm incarcerated because I let you imprison me. I'll get out when I want to. And then you're an appetiser." I would never be one of his jailers.

I can see why Alana would want to be, though (as opposed to letting someone less competent like Chilton be his warden and maybe learning about his escape via Hannibal showing up at her door). I also like the indications that the orderlies in charge of Hannibal's face-to-face care are the most scrupulously trained and wary in the entire medical profession. I suspect Alana put a fair amount of Verger money toward staff recruitment.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Bruinsfan