S02.E07: Black Maps And Motel Rooms

[shapeshifter]

What if Frank...so keen on justice, etc....goes down and gives his tix to Venezuela to Ray and Ani since they need an exit strategy and may possibly have to leave the country?

At some point towards the end of the episode I was pretty sure that Chekhov's Changeable Tickets would be Ani and Ray's ticket to a new life.

[paigow]

I'm surprised he wasn't cast in that Jaguar commercial featuring the British actors being cast as villains.

Ben Kingsley in Sexy Beast was pure evil. If Frank was 25% as scary, Vince Vaughn would get an Emmy.

[paigow]

At some point towards the end of the episode I was pretty sure that Chekhov's Changeable Tickets would be Ani and Ray's ticket to a new life.

Velcoro has demonstrated passable Spanish speaking skill...The big twist is that Ray & Frank use the tickets!!!!

[TonyMicheaux]

He gives a shit. Obviously he doesn't like that he is gay.

lol yeah i don't see what so hard to understand about that . Imo Paul storyline is the only one  i think is realistic mainly because I know a closet case in real life who he reminds me of i was dying at the its 2015 line. I mean it's 2015 yet plenty of women are in relationships with men who like men and they don;t even know it. So i really don't understand what problem peoole have with his storyline. He is closet case and closet cases exist all over America .

[Hobo.PassingThru]

The only problem I have with Paul's story line is that they kept hinting that whatever happened during the war that he was involved in was a bigger deal than him being gay. But, the part they kept focusing on was him being frustrated at being gay.

Think about it. Everytime someone, a superior or that lawyer in that meeting, hung something over Paul's head, it was always Black Mountain (cue ominous music).

 

The gay part, that was mostly this big unspoken thing. If this was his story and his alone, fine. But, the scenes with his mom--including the missing money which again seemed to lead back to Black Mountain (cue ominous music), made it seem like the secret that mattered happened during the war. Maybe the closeted aspect factored into that, too, but, prior to this episode, Black Mountain was always brought up as being about something really, really bad.

 

Like, Paul getting mad because his mom spent his "hidden stash" of money, Black Mountain kept being emphasized in favor of the self-denial aspect. And, yet, his friction with his mom always hinted more at the closted aspect. I mean, the aspect of his his girlfriend getting pregnant totally made what happened during the war... oh no. It had nothing to do with the war. It had to do with him being closeted.

 

Then it turns out in this past episode, oh crap!, that Black Mountain stuff mattered a lot. But, not in the way it seemed. I seriously thought the shootout was supposed to mirror the vaugely described incident that was scandalous. But, so far, no clear verification of that. But, according to the guy who killed him, if Paul had been honest with himself, he'd be alive and wouldn't have anything over his head, right?

 

Ugh.

 

I appreciate what you bring up, Tony, but they just emphasized too much. Maybe thematically, sure, Paul needed to become a father. Parentage and all thats good or bad that goes with it is a recurring theme for the characters. But, wasn't his creepy mom enough?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[TonyMicheaux]

The only problem I have with Paul's story line is that they kept hinting that whatever happened during the war that he was involved in was a bigger deal than him being gay. But, the part they kept focusing on was him being frustrated at being gay.

Think about it. Everytime someone, a superior or that lawyer in that meeting, hung something over Paul's head, it was always Black Mountain (cue ominous music).

 

The gay part, that was mostly this big unspoken thing. If this was his story and his alone, fine. But, the scenes with his mom--including the missing money which again seemed to lead back to Black Mountain (cue ominous music), made it seem like the secret that mattered happened during the war. Maybe the closeted aspect factored into that, too, but, prior to this episode, Black Mountain was always brought up as being about something really, really bad.

 

Like, Paul getting mad because his mom spent his "hidden stash" of money, Black Mountain kept being emphasized in favor of the self-denial aspect. And, yet, his friction with his mom always hinted more at the closted aspect. I mean, the aspect of his his girlfriend getting pregnant totally made what happened during the war... oh no. It had nothing to do with the war. It had to do with him being closeted.

 

Then it turns out in this past episode, oh crap!, that Black Mountain stuff mattered a lot. But, not in the way it seemed. I seriously thought the shootout was supposed to mirror the vaugely described incident that was scandalous. But, so far, no clear verification of that. But, according to the guy who killed him, if Paul had been honest with himself, he'd be alive and wouldn't have anything over his head, right?

 

Ugh.

 

I appreciate what you bring up, Tony, but they just emphasized too much. Maybe thematically, sure, Paul needed to become a father. Parentage and all thats good or bad that goes with it is a recurring theme for the characters. But, wasn't his creepy mom enough?

i can agree with that but that palys into the larger role on how this season has jsut been plain awful. Everyone raved about true detective first season  and i only saw the first epsiode it was ok but not that great.  Never watched the second  then i see the second season and  this show jsut seems awful the writing is bad, vince vaughn is not very beleiable in his role as a gangster at all sad to say but seeing him in so many comedies makes it hard to take him serious in this role.

 

Vince vaughn wife is also awful like seriously  the chick mumbles all of herl lines. Rachel Mcadams is cool but i can not take this tough lady act seriously she waeighs like 90 pounds yet im suppose to beleive she can kick men twice her size ass   it so eyeroll worthy . There is a trend to attempt to make women characters like men to seem more progressive or feminist  but all it does is annoy me. Why can't a women  just be normal and be badass  this whole make the female character behave like the men thing is bullshit it it never comes off realistic seeing as the actress Rachel is tooo pretty and too clean cut for the role she is playing.

 

I was sad when paul died that was a very unsatifactory conclusion to his storyline and a big what hte fuck. I thought they was finally address his sexuality but instead they killed him off i thought that was dumb. A;lso this whole big convulted plot over the diamonds , caspere and ther land is just ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the writer of this show seems like  a hack who just throws anything he can to the drawing board hoping it will stick.

[paigow]

I have one random question too: Why was Frank so convinced that everything was happening behind the Mayor's back? If he was wrong, he just tipped his hand, even though he was warning his last loyal man to keep it as quiet as possible that they'd become aware what was going on.

Frank wants the Mayor to accuse Tony of betrayal, then wait for the aftermath which falls into a spectrum of helpfulness.

1. Tony does nothing, but when the money gets stolen, the Mayor will be a suspect - Frank gets escape advantage 

2. Tony and the Mayor try to kill each other at the drop, Russian & BlackMountain security get distracted - Frank gets a tactical advantage.

3. Tony and the Mayor try to kill each other at home, Vinci PD has to sanitize the crime scene and cannot attend the drop - Frank gets a tactical advantage

[Constantinople]

Some things I'm not understanding

1. If the jewelers' children, now adults, are the ones who killed Caspere, why did they kill Caspere and not Dixon and Burris?  It's my understanding, either Dixon or Burris, or both, actually killed the jewelers?

 

2. Just how did the blue diamonds from the robbery, get Caspere, Burris, Dixon and Holloway into Vinci?  If they used the diamonds to bribe Mayor Chessani, why doesn't he have them?  Or was he bribed with only part of the take?

 

3. If you need to bribe your way into working for the Vinci PD, how did Ray do that?  Did Frank pay Ray's "initiation fee"?  Or do you just have to pass the "corruption" test before you can join the Vinci PD (rob a jewelry store and kill its owners, kill your wife's "rapist")?

 

4. Do the Israeli Russians (or Russian Israelis), the Catalyst Group and their security group, f/k/a Black Mountain, know about the blue diamonds?  If so, would they try to take out Burris and Holloway as loose ends?

[Crim]

^ That's not what stumped me. The Mayor only accuses Tony if he hadn't already known. The Mayor has been an asshole to Frank and kicked him on the way down before it was totally clear that Frank was sinking for good unless he knew what was going on, and his son doesn't seem capable of orchestrating much. What did I miss that indicated to Frank that the son was working behind the Mayor's back instead of the son being the face of a family operation?

 

Besides, only 2 is a real advantage. For one, Frank has the tickets, so he just picks up the diamonds and gets on a plane; how much of an escape advantage does he need? It's not like he will be the number 1 suspect right away, since no one knows Blake told him anything. And as for 3, sending a few cops to sanitize the crime scene hardly makes that much of a difference when there must be so much security, for both sides, at the drop; it's not like Vince can get the advantage in numbers, even if no cops at all are there. Meanwhile, the risk is that the Mayor did know, so now he is aware that Frank found out, and he alerts everyone and Frank loses all advantage he had.

 

If the jewelers' children, now adults, are the ones who killed Caspere, why did they kill Caspere and not Dixon and Burris?  It's my understanding, either Dixon or Burris, or both, actually killed the jewelers?

That is an excellent question. The only reason I can think of is that Laura's cover was somehow blown, so they had to kill Caspere earlier than planned, then Dixon died, and... I got nothing to explain Burris being alive except maybe that they don't know who he is. Maybe Laura had to get that info from Caspere and didn't.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Crim

[terrymct]

Are you sure they are both supposed to be from So Cal?  I assumed that Frank was not because he was locked in a basement as a child and we don't have those.  I've lived in the LA area my entire life and have seen exactly one basement and it wasn't even a real basement, it was just a little dig out for the hot water heater, it didn't even have real walls -- known as a California Basement.  I've got nothing to explain Ray though.  His manner of talking and clothing choices scream that he's from somewhere else, but his dad was LAPD, so I would assume he grew up in So Cal.

 

He told his wife about working in those same kind of fields with the same crops.  Those speeches were his establishing his disadvantaged upbringing and his roots in the area.   I think the writer's mess up regarding basements is probably due to his only casual familiarity with the area and his inconsistency with his characters.

 

 

 

Given all the muckity-mucks at the party, they could probably put an APB out without calling in any outside cops.  They are probably just using the APB to find and kill her, so it isn't like they'd need to collect evidence and build a solid case.

 

An APB goes out to all the different law enforcement jurisdictions, including the State ones that the orgy pals don't control.  There's paper involved and questions.  

Velcoro has demonstrated passable Spanish speaking skill...The big twist is that Ray & Frank use the tickets!!!!

 

Louie, I think this is the start of a beautiful friendship.

[Quilt Fairy]

I still don't understand why Dixon was following Paul and taking those compromising photographs. He's not an independent thinker - who sent him on that task and why? (The fact that he indeed GOT compromising photographs is not a given considering that initially Paul was just some random CHP officer who found the body.)

 

ETA:

Rachel Mcadams is cool but i can not take this tough lady act seriously she waeighs like 90 pounds yet im suppose to beleive she can kick men twice her size ass   it so eyeroll worthy . There is a trend to attempt to make women characters like men to seem more progressive or feminist  but all it does is annoy me. Why can't a women  just be normal and be badass  this whole make the female character behave like the men thing is bullshit it it never comes off realistic seeing as the actress Rachel is tooo pretty and too clean cut for the role she is playing.

We'll have to agree to disagree here because I think RM is killing this role, like a little dirty blonde with black roots ninja!

Edited August 4, 2015 by Quilt Fairy

[WaltersHair]

 

Did you notice the cold look she gave Frank when he said "I love you" right before she replied "I love you?" If she is in on it, I wonder if she thought losing the money would inspire Frank to get out of Dodge so they could start over (which she did suggest in an early episode) but instead it inspired him to go two steps backwards to his crime boss days.

She's made mention more than once about how they could just take what money they have and run. She also said in the new, smaller house that "we didn't need all that room"

Something not right there. As if she's talking him into his new low position.

[teddysmom]

Rachel Mcadams is cool but i can not take this tough lady act seriously she waeighs like 90 pounds yet im suppose to beleive she can kick men twice her size ass   it so eyeroll worthy . There is a trend to attempt to make women characters like men to seem more progressive or feminist  but all it does is annoy me. Why can't a women  just be normal and be badass  this whole make the female character behave like the men thing is bullshit it it never comes off realistic seeing as the actress Rachel is tooo pretty and too clean cut for the role she is playing.

 

 

She can't kick their ass, that's why she had to become proficient with knives.   

[Jextella]

"dashing...as alway, Ray" says Jordon.  "This time, keep it in its holster."

 

Ray, dashing???

[ChipBach]

I think I mentally checked out on this season so long ago that I cannot keep focused when it's on, thereby making it even harder to follow.  However, I don't think it's worth a rewatch to try to figure it out.  

 

Paul, you get to safety, then start futzing with your phone.  Sheesh!  Baddest bad ass ever and he makes a rookie mistake when he knows James Frain is around.  I assume the second sot was to the head.  The writing has been sloppy all along, but it would be too far afield to imagine that JF would not effectively double tap. If Jesse Eisenberg can do it, I suspect it's a automatic response for JF.   

 

Stan, you were no Pony Boy.  You were not golden.  Dammit, Stan!  I was counting on you! 

 

There was blood splatter coming from the head after the second shot.  Unless they go the Russell Crowe/LA Confidential route, he is most certainly slain.

 

And yes, Stanley continues to delight...

[Cardie]

1. If the jewelers' children, now adults, are the ones who killed Caspere, why did they kill Caspere and not Dixon and Burris?  It's my understanding, either Dixon or Burris, or both, actually killed the jewelers?

 

The only clue to responsibility for the robbery is possession of the blue diamonds. Somehow Caspere's having them must have become known to the sleuthing siblings--perhaps via Laura/Erica attending the sex parties. So she gets a job in Caspere's office and eventually she (and her brother?) kidnap, torture and kill him. The only way they don't now know about Dixon, Burriss and Holloway is if Caspere never talked; he doesn't seem any more reliable than Blake in that regard. So I guess it's just a matter of them getting to Holloway and Burriss when they're not armed and surrounded by other cops. Perhaps the brother is in fact embedded in law enforcement or security and took out Dixon and made sure Holloway never left the tunnel. Three down, one to go.

 

As to why Caspere still had the diamonds, we've been given no clues (of course!) The only scenario I can come up with is that he was a prolific accumulator of illicit funds and had enough to pay the quartet's entrée into the Vinci machine and kept the diamonds as security in case of need for a fast getaway, in the same way Frank is planning. The blue diamonds are rare and if they had tried to fence them with the robbery-murder fresh in the headlines, they would have been caught.

[NurseGiGi]

 Rachel Mcadams is cool but i can not take this tough lady act seriously she waeighs like 90 pounds yet im suppose to beleive she can kick men twice her size ass   it so eyeroll worthy .

 

 

 

She can't kick their ass, that's why she had to become proficient with knives.   

And, in one of the first episodes Ani actually states that's why she became proficient with knives because she knew she couldn't out fight a man.

 

The one I find eye roll worthy is VV's wife.  She ALWAYS seems to be stoned on Valium.

Edited August 4, 2015 by NurseGiGi

[Cindylou]

Seeing as how James Frain seems to be popping up all over tv these days, I'm strongly starting to suspect that there might be a James Frain behind every single door in the whole world.  Even had Paul emerged not just from a different door, but even onto an entirely different series, he probably would have still run into James Frain.

Maybe he's a Librarian?

[MrWhyt]

As to why Caspere still had the diamonds, we've been given no clues (of course!) The only scenario I can come up with is that he was a prolific accumulator of illicit funds and had enough to pay the quartet's entrée into the Vinci machine and kept the diamonds as security in case of need for a fast getaway, in the same way Frank is planning. The blue diamonds are rare and if they had tried to fence them with the robbery-murder fresh in the headlines, they would have been caught.

Do we know if he had all the diamond from the robbery? maybe he only used a portion as the buy in and kept the rest. Or perhaps he used them as a sort of collateral "let us in now and we'll pay you double/triple/quadruple/whatever when it's safe to move the stones".

[Ellaria]

I think that I am forgetting something...

 

where are the blue diamonds now?

[represent]

 

 

QUOTE

Rachel Mcadams is cool but i can not take this tough lady act seriously she waeighs like 90 pounds yet im suppose to beleive she can kick men twice her size ass   it so eyeroll worthy . There is a trend to attempt to make women characters like men to seem more progressive or feminist  but all it does is annoy me. Why can't a women  just be normal and be badass  this whole make the female character behave like the men thing is bullshit it it never comes off realistic seeing as the actress Rachel is tooo pretty and too clean cut for the role she is playing.

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here because I think RM is killing this role, like a little dirty blonde with black roots ninja!

I agree, I think she's great, she's actually the only reason I'm watching. I wasn't into to season one quite frankly, didn't think there was anything that great about it, but that's me. 

She doesn't seem manly to me, she appears to be a woman with a history of being sexually abused/raped, who views the world as not having enough law and order and therefore was drawn to that line of work. But she knew her physicality would limit her and therefore has worked hard to compensate for it and I believe it "90" lbs. and all. That man picked her up by the fucking neck and before he could tighten his grip to cut off all the oxygen to her brain, I buy that she was able to slice his organs to shreds. He bled out and seconds losing his grip, makes sense to me.

 

I'm pretty sure that self-defense classes minus the knives teach you how to defend yourself against any and all sizes and muscle strengths so I'm not exactly buying that a small frame can take down a much bigger, stronger one. 

 

I have no comment on the "tooo pretty" nor "normal" terminology, just that I have no idea what that should have to do with any of this.  

 

 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Yeah, You've Got That Something; I Think You'll Understand / Velcoro wants to hold Bez's hand. Sarah D. Bunting ain't quite buying it.

[Desperately Random]

 

As to why Caspere still had the diamonds, we've been given no clues (of course!) The only scenario I can come up with is that he was a prolific accumulator of illicit funds and had enough to pay the quartet's entrée into the Vinci machine and kept the diamonds as security in case of need for a fast getaway, in the same way Frank is planning. The blue diamonds are rare and if they had tried to fence them with the robbery-murder fresh in the headlines, they would have been caught.

I thought that that since there had to have been more than just those blue diamonds in the jewelry store that they took other diamonds as well. Those are the ones that were sold and used to get into Vinci.They held on to the blue ones because they could be too easily traced back to the robbery. That's why Caspere still had them after all these years.

[Kbilly]

I have loved Colin Farrell for a really long time so I thought it was dead sexy the way he was staring at Ani. "Do you miss it?" "What?" "Anything" was a weird True Detective-y exchange but kinda poignant too. At first I loved that they didn't hook up despite the heat. I guess I didn't mind the actual hook-up but it might've been more powerful if they had resisted. 

 

Colin's acting when he got in the car to the dead body was amazing. And I thought Vince was great this episode--I loved his character for the first time all season. Although when he was holding that guy's neck against the wall he was barely holding it and it bothered me!

 

RIP Paul. "I think I'm walking into something." "Then don't" Bummer he didn't listen but he was certainly well-equipped to handle business all except for Frains lurking in the shadows.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Kbilly

[represent]

I love the hookup although I'm not sure it will go anywhere, I wish it would.  I just think these two are due for some peace and happiness as much as their personalities will allow. If they can do it together all the better. He was a different person before his ex-wife's rape and she was a different little soul before she was raped, that "before and after" theory. They'll never be what they were before and Ani probably can't remember the "before" since she was little.

 

 I even think that was what that strange dialogue was about, missing the life that was before. Because I think he ask her about missing "it/anything" right after he alludes to that something in his life that led him down the road he is now on when he's trying to explain to her that he really was way into all the mess way before she drew him 
"back in". Then he says to her that something similar has happened to her which he knows for sure something happened after that exchange about the "woods" and she responds that it's not something she talks about . So that's when he starts in about does she miss "it/anything" and I think he's alluding to the life before shit happened that led them down this fucked up present that they're in.

 

See I like a mystery but I'm not an avid fan of detective/mysteries, although I can surely watch a Law and Order SVU marathon any day. But even that is my favorite Law and Order franchise because of the characters and not so much the actual mystery in the detective work. I've always loved that cast, even with the cast changes. I've said it before, if I like the characters/relationships I can overlook fucked up writing especially when it comes to the mysteries/detective genre. So I pay closest attention to anything characters reveal about themselves moreso any revelations about solving the mystery.

 

I mean I was listening to the Afterbuzz show and those reviewers rarely get the personal stuff that is going on with the characters. They did not get what Ani's former partner mean by three in a row, that he was talking about how many hugs she gave, which is something she doesn't do. I was with him all the way, I got it, love that scene by the way.

Edited August 4, 2015 by represent

[shapeshifter]

"dashing...as alway, Ray" says Jordon.  "This time, keep it in its holster."

 

Ray, dashing???

Seriously. LOL. I guess "Lookin' good!" didn't fit her persona.

 

I think that I am forgetting something...

where are the blue diamonds now?

I don't think you've missed anything, rather, I think you are asking the question we are supposed to be asking. Unfortunately, there are so many things that are unclear that shouldn't be that they're obfuscated the real question of: Who has the blue diamonds now?

 

 

To be fair about the hook up with Ray and Ani, they spent quite a bit of screen time letting us know she a) has a habit of casual sex, b) has a habit of having sex with her work partners, and c) was still somewhat under the influence of a date rape drug, but not so much for it to be rape, just enough to make her uninhibited.

So I guess we could see a disclaimer of: No hearts were broken in the filming of this sex scene because no emotions were involved.

[represent]

deleted

Edited August 4, 2015 by represent

[Cardie]

Thanks Mr. Whyt and Desperately Random for other theories on why Caspere kept the blue diamonds.

 

where are the blue diamonds now?

 

We don't know. Our guys found them in the safe deposit box, then put them in the evidence room from which they disappeared. Because the three bad cops would not want them traced so as to open up the 1992 robbery case again, and they had access to the evidence room, best bet is Holloway or Burriss. The vengeful siblings are sure to be in pursuit of them, I would think.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Cardie

[represent]

 

 

To be fair about the hook up with Ray and Ani, they spent quite a bit of screen time letting us know she a) has a habit of casual sex, b) has a habit of having sex with her work partners, and c) was still somewhat under the influence of a date rape drug, but not so much for it to be rape, just enough to make her uninhibited.

So I guess we could see a disclaimer of: No hearts were broken in the filming of this sex scene because no emotions were involved.

See I didn't see that in the scene. I saw comfort starting with the hugging and the cheek kissing maybe that's why they chose to not show any ass in the scene, because this is HBO, ANYTHING GOES.  Or, maybe it's in McAdams contract, because I don't know if she disrobes much in her roles, I've never seen it. I think I saw her in one role, I forgot the name of the movie, but she has on panties, takes off the bra but covers her boobs with her hands, so viewers never see them. Anyway, the fact that he did not take advantage when she was really fucked up and that it happened after a buildup  or effort to reveal to each other personal feelings, I'm not sure they were trying to show that he was just another Mercer to her. Actually even her partner, it happened once and they continued to be partners, even though he admitted that it was hard for him to stop thinking of her as possible lover. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by represent

[Ellaria]

Thanks Mr. Whyt and Desperately Random for other theories on why Caspere kept the blue diamonds.

 

We don't know. Our guys found them in the safe deposit box, then put them in the evidence room from which they disappeared. Because the three bad cops would not want them traced so as to open up the 1992 robbery case again, and they had access to the evidence room, best bet is Holloway or Burriss. The vengeful siblings are sure to be in pursuit of them, I would think.

 

Thanks for the clarification. I must have dozed off in the middle of an episode. I don't remember the conversations about the disappearance from the evidence room.

 

I'm sure that the vengeful siblings are in pursuit of these diamonds. I guess that Laura/Erica and Leonard/Set Photographer(?) will have their time to shine in the finale.

 

If we suspect that Burris and/or Holloway have the diamonds, then who has the hard drive? McCandless (Catalyst guy) thinks that Frank can locate it. So far, Frank doesn't seem all that concerned about it. Do the siblings have it and intend to use it in exchange for the diamonds? If so, does that imply that Leonard was Ray's shooter?

[Constantinople]

I think that I am forgetting something...

 

where are the blue diamonds now?

Somewhere in the mid-Atlantic in the vicinity of Titanic's final resting place.

Rose tossed them over the side of the salvage ship before dying.

On a more serious note, I don't think we know where the blue diamonds are.

 

 

I thought that that since there had to have been more than just those blue diamonds in the jewelry store that they took other diamonds as well. Those are the ones that were sold and used to get into Vinci.They held on to the blue ones because they could be too easily traced back to the robbery. That's why Caspere still had them after all these years.

I thought the police officer who investigated the robbery only mentioned blue diamonds.

But I do wonder why they choose not to focus on more generic diamonds.

[Desperately Random]

I thought the police officer who investigated the robbery only mentioned blue diamonds.

But I do wonder why they choose not to focus on more generic diamonds.

I know he talked about them because they were so rare but did he say they were the only diamonds/jewelry taken? I don't remember. I can understand why those blue diamonds are what the police focused on in trying to solve the murders. The other generic diamonds were untraceable and a dead end.  It just seems odd the killers would only take those blue diamonds and nothing else. There had to be other jewelry in the cases besides those blue diamonds so why not take them too?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Desperately Random

[Cardie]

If we suspect that Burris and/or Holloway have the diamonds, then who has the hard drive? McCandless (Catalyst guy) thinks that Frank can locate it. So far, Frank doesn't seem all that concerned about it. Do the siblings have it and intend to use it in exchange for the diamonds? If so, does that imply that Leonard was Ray's shooter?

 

Those seem the most logical inferences to draw. From the first appearance of Birdman I've assumed that he killed Caspere, then ambushed Ray, and was motivated by personal vengeance, not the rest of the complicated corridor corruption everyone else is implicated in. The riot rounds do point to a cop, the strongest counter-indication to set photographer as Leonard/Birdman.

[Desperately Random]

Some things I'm not understanding

1. If the jewelers' children, now adults, are the ones who killed Caspere, why did they kill Caspere and not Dixon and Burris?  It's my understanding, either Dixon or Burris, or both, actually killed the jewelers?

The jeweler's children didn't know about Dixon and Burris because they wore masks during the robbery. (Remember the detective who worked the case told Paul that.) So when Laura found out Caspere had the blue diamonds she knew he was either one of the killers or knew who they were. That's why Caspere was killed and why they tortured him first. They wanted to find out if Caspere killed their parents and if so who was his partner. Or if he wasn't the killer, then who was.

 

Cardie:

Thanks Mr. Whyt and Desperately Random for other theories on why Caspere kept the blue diamonds.

You're welcome. You've helped me a lot with your insightful posts. Glad I was finally able to return the favor.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Desperately Random

[MrWhyt]

I know he talked about them because they were so rare but did he say they were the only diamonds/jewelry taken? I don't remember. I can understand why those blue diamonds are what the police focused on in trying to solve the murders. The other generic diamonds were untraceable and a dead end.  It just seems odd the killers would only take those blue diamonds and nothing else. There had to be other jewelry in the cases besides those blue diamonds so why not take them too?

I think the bolded part makes the most sense. The store wouldn't have only the blue diamonds, the thieves took all they could and the blue diamonds are too distinctive to fence. The other stolen stuff was what was used to buy into Vinci. The corrupt cops retrieved the blue diamonds from evidence to prevent them from being linked to the original robbery and birdman (who is one/both of the orphans) has the hard drive to use as blackmail against/bait for the cops who killed their parents.

Edited August 4, 2015 by MrWhyt

[Cardie]

Probably the most logical scenario is that Caspere did reveal his cop accomplices but Laura and Leonard want their diamonds back and have to hold off on vengeance until they can get them back from Burriss and Holloway, either by stealth or exchanging the hard drive for them.

[shapeshifter]

Thanks to the 3 posts above, I now understand the show's plot/mystery.

Was it really necessary to obscure the point to the story so much? I mean, it seems like a lot of people can't follow what's going on by just watching (including some if not all of the 3 posters above). Maybe NP or other PTB thought it would be a good gimmick to force the viewers to have to use social media to figure out WTH the show's about. You know. Create more buzz. Maybe they thought that was how Lost worked. If so: Silly producers!

I feel like when my parents wasted money on a surprise Barbie Doll House for me right after I'd outgrown interest in dolls.

ETA: Am I the only one who thought the Ani's remembered image of her childhood rapist looked a little too much like a slightly older and creepier Ray? Why not cast him with lighter colored hair and eyes? And his hair was similar texture and part to Ray's.

Edited August 4, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Cindylou]

this has been a very confusing season, but I will admit it has been pretty entertaining!  I have enjoyed it and these boards after the viewings.

 

so Frain we are guessing Frain for Birdman?  or does it matter anymore? Did Stan just ruin it for us all now?

[Ellaria]

Thanks to the 3 posts above, I now understand the show's plot/mystery.

Was it really necessary to obscure the point to the story so much? 

 

No, it wasn't necessary. There were too many characters (major and minor), too much time spent on things that went nowhere (Seymons' fertility issues, Paul's missing money, etc.) and too much silly dialogue. Cardie had a great post upthread that provided a straightforward explanation of the plot.

 

I love mysteries/crime stories but I don't like the way that this season has played out. There is no need to make a mystery more mysterious by relying on extraneous nonsense.

 

this has been a very confusing season, but I will admit it has been pretty entertaining!  I have enjoyed it and these boards after the viewings.

 

so Frain we are guessing Frain for Birdman?  or does it matter anymore? Did Stan just ruin it for us all now?

 

I think that Frain is Birdman, mostly because of the use of rubber bullets. However, Leonard/Set Photographer(?) is a possibility as well; he could have been there to get the stupid hard drive. 

 

One final question: after Frain killed poor Paul, he jumped into a white get-away car. Who was driving that car? Holloway was dead/seriously wounded in the tunnels. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

Let me confuse this even further by asking  a question.

 

If the store in LA was robbed and the blue diamonds were taken, we assume that the diamonds were not the only items stolen.

We also are basically told that the owners two kids were taken in by someone, the mayor of Vinci, right? So, someone raised the kids and we assume that we've seen both of them as adults and they may be behind the initial torture/killing of the Caspare guy, right?

 

Well, is there a chance that there was also insurance money involved in the robbery, in the heist? If so then I can see there being a particular reason why someone took the kids in, adopted them or whatever.

[Consternation]

I've always (and by always, I mean a couple weeks or however long it's been) had some issues with the idea that the mayor's kids are the Ostermans from the jewelry store.  The kids were old enough to remember the heist and would know they were adopted.  The daughter talks about her real mother dying in the care of Rick Springfield.  The son is so far into the conspiracy (way more than the mayor by the way things look now) that the idea of him exposing it for revenge by killing Caspere and doing whatever he is going to do with the hard drive seems far fetched.

 

At the same time I have always (three or four weeks) thought that the daughter knows something.

[Cardie]

One final question: after Frain killed poor Paul, he jumped into a white get-away car. Who was driving that car?

Every member of the Catalyst security force and probably every corrupt cop in Vinci had eyes on Paul and were no doubt guarding all the exits. That this posse also had cars ready to make their getaway is not a stretch.

The show teased us in the episode prior to this one with the Osterman kids being the Chessani offspring--because they looked very dark in the photo--but now it seems likely that the girl is Caspere's assistant and the Chessani kids are Chessani's, God help them. We only know that Leonard and Laura went into foster care. We don't know if they were eventually adopted. Many older kids are not.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

Throwing this out there. One of the recent comments I wrote found me typing "Caspere" for the first time. Felt odd because of how they say it on the show.

Someone mentioned the oddity of the spelling.

 

This probably means nothing to the character name but in French Cas = case and Pere = father.

 

I'm sure it is just an oddity I am making too much of and not an intentional allusion on the part of the writer.

 

We only know that Leonard and Laura went into foster care. We don't know if they were eventually adopted. Many older kids are not.

Oh, for some reason I was under the impression that one of the key bad guys (the mayor specifically) raised the two kids. That reason is why they, like everyone else, are in Vinci.

[Consternation]

I think the mayor of Vinci is supposed to live in Bel Air.  He works in Vinci, and his son works with a lot of people from Vinci, throwing the parties which don't seem to be in Vinci.

 

The daughter (does she have a first name?  We have just been calling her "Andrea") has only ever been spotted inside the house, and around the corner at the dispensary as far as I know.

[yourmomiseasy]

He told his wife about working in those same kind of fields with the same crops.  Those speeches were his establishing his disadvantaged upbringing and his roots in the area.   I think the writer's mess up regarding basements is probably due to his only casual familiarity with the area and his inconsistency with his characters.

 

Thank you.  I must have missed that due to not being able to pay attention to Frank's monologues. 

[Malaprop cocktail]

Frank said that the rats incident occurred in Chicago.

After Paul died, in the scene back at the motel, I was guessing his mom would out him to his fiancee. It would be a sort of dark, Graham Greene-ish conclusion to his story.

"Osip ask, where is gas leak?" Wow.

[sjohnson]

A crooked jeweler can hang on to blue diamonds, and it seems likely to me he would. For him they would be a prized part of his secret stash. There is a crooked jeweler in Vinci, as we've seen. If Frank wanted diamonds as a portable way to carry his loot, so could Caspere. There's no good reason for Caspere to keep them though. 

 

All scenarios where the jeweler's son or daughter is Birdman have the problem of explaining how they would know Caspere helped invest the funds; why they care about the hard drive; why they'd have the big thing about Caspere's eyes; why they don't care about the diamonds, which is the only hard evidence connecting Caspere and the robbery and somehow seems to be the only route to finding out about Caspere at this point; how they could pick a park where someone as intimately connected with Catalyst security as Paul would find the body; how there's a link to the movie set in addition to the director, who partied with Caspere. By the way, given Pizzolato's falling out with Fukunaga, maybe we should be looking at the director?

Edited August 5, 2015 by sjohnson

[WaltersHair]

Is it totally impossible that Frank is the other orphan?

edited to add: he's too old. I'm pretty sure he said he was 42 in one episode.

 

so now my money is on the reporter Ray beat up.

Edited August 5, 2015 by WaltersHair

[sjohnson]

The late lamented Voice of God Miquel is a candidate for jewelers' son. 

 

You would think the blue diamonds would have been sent out of country, most likely to Amsterdam or maybe Israel. Which of course makes you think of Osip, as does drugs from Afghanistan. If the blue diamonds had come back, it would at least explain how tracing them leads to Caspere first rather than skipping over Burress/Dixon. Come to think of it, Dixon would be interested in whether the evidence was back in California and explain why he'd be alert for news of them and look for them if he heard about them. I don't know why he'd think Caspere had finally unloaded them. 

[MrWhyt]

A crooked jeweler can hang on to blue diamonds, and it seems likely to me he would. For him they would be a prized part of his secret stash. There is a crooked jeweler in Vinci, as we've seen. If Frank wanted diamonds as a portable way to carry his loot, so could Caspere. There's no good reason for Caspere to keep them though. 

 

All scenarios where the jeweler's son or daughter is Birdman have the problem of explaining how they would know Caspere helped invest the funds; why they care about the hard drive; why they'd have the big thing about Caspere's eyes; why they don't care about the diamonds, which is the only hard evidence connecting Caspere and the robbery and somehow seems to be the only route to finding out about Caspere at this point; how they could pick a park where someone as intimately connected with Catalyst security as Paul would find the body; how there's a link to the movie set in addition to the director, who partied with Caspere. By the way, given Pizzolato's falling out with Fukunaga, maybe we should be looking at the director?

1. They care about the hard drive because they can use it as blackmail or bait for those involved with their parent's murder.

2. What makes you think they don't care about the diamonds? The diamonds were in Caspere's safe deposit box, and then in the police evidence room and are now gone.

3. What makes you think they wanted Paul to find the body? How would they know he'd be on a late night ride and end up in that rest area?