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Rumplestiltskin: Apparently He's Part of Every Fairy Tale Ever


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14 hours ago, Camera One said:

I consider the Rumple/Evil Queen "romance" to be bending over backwards to keep him relevant this season.

It's a question of giving some kind of relevant character interaction to the Evil Queen rather. Outside of Zelena and Gold, she has nobody to interact with in a regular way. The REC strikes again...

20 minutes ago, Mari said:

I've wondered if he's using her attraction to him as a manipulative tool.  Which could be interesting, in theory, at least--each one thinking they're using their wiles to get what they want out of the other one.

For Regina, it's typical...but we've never seen Rumple use sex as a weapon before. He typically uses love. 

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True, but the first time EQRegina made a pass, he seemed surprised.  Then, it was almost like he did a quick recalculation in his head.

I'm not saying he IS manipulating her, just that I'd buy it if that was the story later.

Edited by Mari
Capitalization and punctuation are actually useful.
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The thing is, I'm sure he is manipulating EQ!Regina, but even that seems unlike his typical strategy. Cora tried to seduce him in Storybrooke the same way, but he didn't play into it, even for his benefit. And in the EF, he didn't pursue any kind of physical relationship as the DO--with Zelena or otherwise. That's why this "affair" with the EQ seems really OOC for him. Unless this is supposed to be the side-effect of being the Super Dark One as others have suggested. Again, the writers are equating "evil" with increased sexual impulses. 

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There's only one time I ever remember Rumple using sexual desire for his benefit. In 3x18, he played into Zelena's intense make-out session in order to pickpocket the Dagger. (But she figured it out and stopped him.)

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Cora tried to seduce him in Storybrooke the same way, but he didn't play into it, even for his benefit. 

At least Cora wasn't groping him all over or talking in a Southern Belle accent. I found the attraction in their one scene together fairly mutual because they had been in a legitimate romance together before. It was disturbing enough for the audience to go, "Huh?" but it wasn't too over-the-top. It made sense with what was setup later. The Zelena and Regina stuff, OTOH, has been cartoonishly lusty. They've been just ridiculous. Golden Heart will always trump be superior because it was organic and mutual. It's still lusty, but in a more satisfying and believable way.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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When you look at it, Rumple is the main conflict of the show. Hyde and the Evil Queen are mere distractions. If Rumple hadn't stolen the Olympian Crystal, the portal wouldn't have taken Wicked Hero to LoUS, Hyde wouldn't have come to Storybrooke, and there would be no potion to split Regina with. He should be the main antagonist and focus. He's the one causing everyone problems. But, none of the characters give a flip because he's just too powerful I guess. Dealing with his consequences is a waste of time. It doesn't fix the root of the problem.

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Didn't Rumpel come on to Regina in one of the flashbacks? It was a total retcon for this season, but they did show Rumpel as attracted to her in the past.

I don't remember Rumple ever coming on to Regina before S6. However, I was rewatching a little bit of Skin Deep and it appeared Regina was jealous of Belle. It's clear now it wasn't just about having a pawn against him. 

Edited by KingOfHearts
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If we squint, we can retcon a low-key attraction towards Rumple from Regina, but at no point was Rumple shown to be attracted to Regina, either in the past or present. In 6.02 flashback, they included that odd scene of Rumple sniffing perfume on Regina's neck. Was that supposed to show him being attracted to her? That's odd, considering that's presumably after he fell in love with Belle (and sent her away). So, he was making a move on the EQ when he thought he'd lost Belle for ever? Great!

On 11/15/2016 at 6:40 PM, KingOfHearts said:

There's only one time I ever remember Rumple using sexual desire for his benefit. In 3x18, he played into Zelena's intense make-out session in order to pickpocket the Dagger. (But she figured it out and stopped him.)

I had forgotten that. But as he was Zelena's slave at that point, he was probably open to trying anything. 

This whole EQ/Rumple affair is such a turn-off this season. I'm not saying introducing dark or uncomfortable storylines is necessarily a bad idea, but it's ruining the consistency of Rumple's characterization, which has already been steadily eroding starting from S4. Rumple has become more and more two-dimensional since the hat-plot of S4A, but the EQ affair turns him into an unrecognizable character, IMO.

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38 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This whole EQ/Rumple affair is such a turn-off this season. I'm not saying introducing dark or uncomfortable storylines is necessarily a bad idea, but it's ruining the consistency of Rumple's characterization, which has already been steadily eroding starting from S4. Rumple has become more and more two-dimensional since the hat-plot of S4A, but the EQ affair turns him into an unrecognizable character, IMO.

It's hard to cheer for Rumple and Belle to get back together again, or even tolerate the idea, when he's carrying on with the Evil Queen while Lojacking Belle to keep her from getting away from him -- and then the only reason he seems to want her in his life is to get the baby she's carrying. Minus the magical Lojack, it's a case you might see at the county courthouse several times a week, with a pregnant wife trying to escape her abusive husband, but he stalks her because he feels he owns her or at least owns the baby she's carrying, and meanwhile he's having an affair. But that doesn't matter because his wife and child are his property.

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Rumple is one of my least favorite characters at the moment. He's an insecure jerk who wins even when he loses. His presence on the show hinges on him getting away with everything he does. I'm so tired of him outwitting every single person he has a conflict with. With all the Dark One powers he has now, he's unbeatable. There's no power struggle, it's just Rumple sitting on his throne. It's hard to root for anyone challenging him, because we know he'll get the upper hand in the end. It's also very grating to see Belle coming back to him over and over, no matter how many times he screws up.

I don't recognize Rumple's "humanity" as much any more. There was a good balance in S1-3A, but after that, he lost all redeemable qualities and made poor choices when he was already in an ideal position. He had power, he had Belle, and he was on dandy terms with the heroes. But, he ended up sacrificing all that just so he could get more power with the Hat. He has no excuses. There are plenty of characters on the show that went through a variety of circumstances and didn't choose perpetual selfishness. They all made mistakes and made narcissistic choices at one time or another, but they didn't develop a pattern of behavior that they couldn't break. In other words, Rumple has no conviction. That takes the "humanity" away for me.

Rumple's character really fell apart after Neal died. Before that, he had sympathetic goals to make him three-dimensional beyond the evil. He was still a flawed psychopath, but at least the audience could identify with his need for acceptance from his son. (And Belle.) Now, he just doesn't care. He's a flat cartoon villain. All the teasing that he "has a good heart" or knows better just doesn't provide the depth it used to. He is stuck always making the egotistical choices and will never do the right thing because other than being an antagonist, he has no place on the show any more.

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4A is when Rumple started becoming two-dimensional to me. He was deceiving Belle, made a deal with the Snow Queen to let her murder the whole town, and had plans of World Domination like your typical master-criminal.  The constant repetitions of "when the stars in the hat, etc." didn't help either. It went downhill from there. His sadface doesn't cut it anymore. I agree that killing-off Neal ruined the remaining humanity of the character.

The fact that Rumple is stalking and abusing Belle is actually quite consistent with the way he treated Milah both during their marriage, and after he turned into the Dark One. But many people don't like Milah, and feel that he was at least partly justified in killing her. It makes me sad to see the same attitude displayed towards Belle in some quarters. Rumbelle is turning into a textbook example of battered spouse syndrome, and it makes me so sad. But, I wouldn't put it past A&E to bring Rumbelle back together despite all this. A couple of die-hard Rumbellers I follow have either stopped shipping/or are on the brink after the latest episode. Tbh, I can't understand how some people can still ship it. If anyone here still ships Rumbelle, I would love to hear your thoughts. 

Edited by Rumsy4
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This all stems from the Writers' refusal to let characters grow and their need to reset the hamster wheel for another repetitive spin, every single time.  In Season 5, instead of showing Rumple struggling to live day-to-day life without magic and dropping to everyone else's level without power, they give him back all his Dark One powers and then some.  At the end of 4A, he got kicked out of Storybrooke and lost his powers, but then he returned the first episode of 4B and was back to doing whatever the hell he wanted.  It is beyond tiresome.  The character isn't even fun as a full-out villain anymore.  

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Someone with NO EVIL would not have made the choice Rumple made. There would be no appeal in it to him. Sure, he'd eventually have made mistakes and become like everyone else, but the point was that he was NOT like everyone else at the time he pulled Excalibur from the stone, or chose to take back the darkness. It still makes no sense. And when, exactly, did he do it? I'm still confused.

The main error with Hero!Rumple involved poor worldbuilding. The physical heart is often conflated with the center of our will, thoughts and emotions, which I'll refer to as the "soul" for simplicity. (Philosophers, psychologists and theologians are free to kill me.) The black spots on the heart are meant to represent past sin, which was firmly established back in S2. The show has also used a person's heart as something to be controlled by another's will, which puts "my heart is in your hands", in a very literal sense. Therefore, OUAT presents the heart and soul as particularly synonymous.

In some instances, though, the opposite is shown. For example, Regina could feel everything without her heart, so her soul was still intact. She could think independently of her heart and create new intentions, both good and evil ones. She retained her free will. The same was true for Hero!Rumple. Even though his heart changed, his soul was still tainted and capable of evil. He wasn't purified and his personality did not change. I could go into more detail on the heart vs. soul plot holes, but in Rumple's case, what the characters said did not match reality. For the purposes of magic, his "darkness" was stripped away. But unlike what Belle thought, he was not a "hero" and had no reason to trust him.

In conclusion, if Rumple had no evil and truly was a hero, I agree he wouldn't have betrayed everyone. However, the "pure heart" nonsense was over-complicated because it only applied to magic, not personality. He could pull Excalibur because magically, he was pure. But he clung to power because his soul was still filthy. The show did not explain that very well. (Probably because the writers didn't know what they were doing. They just put more weight on the viewers to come up with headcanons.)

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Don't overthink it. They had Rumple pull the switcheroo because of an unnamed "vial of magic" that the writers pulled out of their asses for that one episode and then never referenced it again. It's the worst deus ex machina this show has pulled, and they've pulled a bunch of random deus ex machinas over the years.

To this day, I don't completely understand how Rumple pulled the switcheroo. I'm sure someone could explain it to me like I'm five, and they probably did at one point, but I've forgotten. It's clear the writers were more concerned with making the audience mad at Rumple than they were actually working it into the narrative. Surely there was a more creative contrivance out there.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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You joke, but for the most part 4A was actually the best Rumple was post-revival.

4A Rumple is a toss-up for me. On one hand, it was Mr. Gold at his most diabolical. At that time, he was twirling his mustache just as much as Imp!Rumple. It was a counter-parallel to his past. Instead of doing evil deeds while masking his intention to save a loved one, he was pretending to be good to mask his evil scheme. Robert brought a certain energy we haven't seen since, and it was really entertaining. Rumple's savoring of his revenge on Hook was a maliciously delightful callback for the character. For most of the arc, it was Rumple just being Rumple, and that's when you can draw the most fun out of him.

However, on the flip side, it undermined his established narrative. Rumple's story was tied up with a nice little bow at the end of 3A, and 4A tore that all to shreds. His sacrifice meant nothing as far as his character was concerned. Then at the beginning of 4A, he made a long speech at Neal's grave in private, vowing to "to do good by" his son. That ended up having no bearing on his actions whatsoever. There was no conflict. He plunged right into the darkness once he saw that hat, without looking back. As we've said before, Bae was the prime motivation for his humanity. After he died, Rumple went full-on cartoon villain. He lost that third dimension he needed to be compelling.

While 4A recaptured Rumple's ability to sparkle, it was still forced regression to keep him on the show.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Yeah, I think that would have been fine if they went all-out with him in 4B as the Big Bad and finished him off there.  But they didn't, and it sucked.

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As we've said before, Bae was the prime motivation for his humanity. After he died, Rumple went full-on cartoon villain. He lost that third dimension he needed to be compelling.

That was even said in the show!  Blue said way back in 1x19 that Bae is the only thing still keeping Rumple's humanity alive.

In hindsight, maybe they should have kept Rumple dead, have Neal serve his role in 3B, then give Neal a true heroic death at the end of the arc.  Neal, being inspired by his father, sacrificing his life to help Emma defeat Zelena would have been a far better climax that Regina's random light magic.

Edited by Mathius
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Yeah, I think that would have been fine if they went all-out with him in 4B as the Big Bad and finished him off there.  But they didn't, and it sucked.

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In hindsight, maybe they should have kept Rumple dead, have Neal serve his role in 3B, then give Neal a true heroic death at the end of the arc.  Neal, being inspired by his father, sacrificing his life to help Emma defeat Zelena would have been a far better climax that Regina's random light magic.

I suppose if you had to keep Rumple, reverting him back to his Big Bad self would be the only feasible way to do it. However, you'd have to eliminate the waffling. He can't be a pure!hero, can't decide to make the "right choice" when the plot needs him to, and the heroes shouldn't give him the time of day unless they want to make a deal with him. Given how powerful he is, it wouldn't unreasonable to believe the heroes couldn't defeat him. That's usually the problem with keeping a villain around, but Rumple is so unbeatable that the heroes couldn't do anything about it if they wanted to. But that doesn't mean they should ever trust him and feel violated when he betrays them.

Belle is, by-and-large, what drags Rumple down into stupid town. She's not the the moral compass Bae was, but she's not Lacey either. That puts Rumple into wishy-washy territory, being the goodest goodie to ever good one day, and the darkest evil the next. That's not grayness or complexity, that's just inconsistency developed from poor character writing. Rumpbelle is what makes Rumple more like Regina. Belle is his cheerleader, just like Snow and Emma are Regina's.

Enablers with black-or-white mentalities are problematic because they force grayer characters into polar extremes. Regina and Rumple are pushed into corners, to be either heroes or villains, and they can't think for themselves without sacrificing interactions with other characters. If they don't follow the "heroes don't kill" rule, they're slapped on the wrist and called dark. Eventually Rumple got tired of this kind of thing, and decided to embrace himself. If Belle doesn't see him as perfect, he can only be a villain. There's no allowance for grayness.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Nasty Habits is a really dumb episode. I actually loved Rumple in 3A, because his redemption was altruistic and his character flowed through it naturally. However, the Rumple/Neal angst was artificial. Baelfire had many things to blame his father for, but saving him from Pan? He was mad that he didn't just ask for him to come home. The show framed it as trust issues, but couldn't parental instincts factor in?

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That was a horrible waste of an episode.  This episode should have focused on Neal and the flashbacks should have shown Baelfire either in Neverland, or how he transitioned from Baelfire to Neal in The World Without Magic (the latter would have been better as a contrast to the present-day on Neverland).  Frankly, we didn't need another Rumple centric, and it would still have been interesting to see Gold and Neal finally interact after the wasted 2B.

Edited by Camera One
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They pulled the same Cricket Game crap. In that episode, the characters were rightfully suspicious of Regina murdering someone. But, the audience knew she was being framed, so the perspective made the skepticism appear unjustified. Therefore, we were meant to sympathize with Regina. In 3A, the viewers were sure Rumple's aspirations for redemption were true, because we saw what he was doing in private. The narrative was not very ambiguous. But, instead of a contrived murder cover-up, we got "the boy will be your undoing". So, all the characters hated Rumple and we had to watch his pout face. I hate it when the writers back all the characters into corners so they can get a specific reaction out of the audience. In this case, they wanted us to feel sorry for him so his sacrifice would be more tragic.

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The spare cot in Gold's Shop is apparently the place where Gold stashed his unconscious victims. It's the same cot he used when Belle was out of commission with the Sleeping Spell. Creep.

Edited by Rumsy4
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The scene with Rumple at Neal's grave is one of my least favorite scenes of the series. It was supposed to be a powerful moment to showcase his inner struggle, but it ended up completely irrelevant. He mowed over that almost immediately. It's very boring and pointless when you have that in mind. He didn't give a crap about doing right by his son.

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On 7/12/2017 at 0:08 AM, KingOfHearts said:

The scene with Rumple at Neal's grave is one of my least favorite scenes of the series. It was supposed to be a powerful moment to showcase his inner struggle, but it ended up completely irrelevant. He mowed over that almost immediately.

Maybe we'll see a flashback of Rumple giving a speech by Belle's grave. Because apparently, this time it will stick, as Belle was killed solely to further Rumple's manpain.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

"Horowitz and Kitsis previously told TheWrap that Belle (Emilie de Ravin), who was killed off in a recent episode, needed to die this season in order to show the pain that longtime love Rumple (Robert Carlyle) endures."

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Now that the show is over, why was Rumple so drawn to making deals which would take away other people's children?  Beyond this being something the Fairy Tale Rumplestiltskin does.

He himself abandoned his own child, so he wanted to judge everyone else who did the same, or what?  Did the show's backstory explain this propensity?

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On 12/30/2020 at 1:29 PM, Camera One said:

Now that the show is over, why was Rumple so drawn to making deals which would take away other people's children?  Beyond this being something the Fairy Tale Rumplestiltskin does.

He himself abandoned his own child, so he wanted to judge everyone else who did the same, or what?  Did the show's backstory explain this propensity?

Because his mom and his dad liked to kidnap children and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Seriously - that's as close as the show gets to an explanation.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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