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Rumplestiltskin: Apparently He's Part of Every Fairy Tale Ever


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The story is incoherent as hell and retconned to death.  Was Rumple living in the same town as he was when he was a kid?  How would everyone know about what his father did?   They knew he was a cheat but not that he abandoned his son to become Peter Pan... surely there were cheats all over the place in that type of society.   Why was he so desperate to stay in the same village?  

 

While Rumple was cowardly to run away, I feel the same as KingofHearts in that I don't think Rumple was a bad person.  For me, going onto Hook's ship and confronting him was brave and did not fit into the narrative that he had always been cowardly.  That alone should have demonstrated to Milah that Rumple did love her enough to overcome his fears, and she now had a stronger position to demand an ultimatum that they move away from their village.  

 

The most cowardly thing that Rumple did was as the Dark One, not going down the portal after Baelfire.  But was that being cowardly, or was it loving his powers as Dark One too much, more than he loved Baelfire?   Similarly to Milah, who chose to stay with Hook because she loved her life as a pirate so much, more than she loved Baelfire.  For Baelfire, both of his parents chose themselves over him, which is very sad.  

Edited by Camera One
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Let's go to the transcript, shall we?

Yes, let's:

 

Rumplestiltskin: I am nothing like my father. He tried to abandon me. I will never, ever do that to my son. That's why I did this-- (he points at his leg) for him. All for the boy. To save him from the same fate I suffered, growing up without a father.

 

 

However, he joined up, promised to fight and then he ran off and abandoned everyone before the fight began because of his own cowardice and selfishness. That's not acceptable. In wartime, that's actually a capital offense.

Rumple wasn't fighting for his country. He was fighting for his own glory and honor so he and his wife would have better lives and so he could prevent himself from becoming his father. That was his whole point for going into war. It was fearful, but I don't find it heartless or inherently immoral that he fled that. He loved his son and his wife and didn't want them to lose him. That isn't particularly selfish in his shoes, since he knew how horrible it was to be fatherless. He wasn't doing it for just himself, he was doing it for his family too.

 

 

The most cowardly thing that Rumple did was as the Dark One, not going down the portal after Baelfire.  But was that being cowardly, or was it loving his powers as Dark One too much, more than he loved Baelfire?  

This. He wasn't thinking about anyone but himself, and that's what sets it apart as cowardly. He didn't have a wife back home, no loved ones in the Enchanted Forest. All he was staying for was his power. That to me is selfish. He turned his back on the very person he injured himself to be with. There was a big change in his heart after becoming the Dark One.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Yes, let's:

Rumplestiltskin: I am nothing like my father. He tried to abandon me. I will never, ever do that to my son. That's why I did this-- (he points at his leg) for him. All for the boy. To save him from the same fate I suffered, growing up without a father.

 

And he admitted he was lying about that:

 

Rumpel: Let me tell you the truth about that day. I didn't cripple myself to get back to my son. I did it because I was scared...I joined the army to prove I wasn't a coward. But when I seen the wounded coming back from the front lines... I didn't want to die. I'm a coward, Belle. And that's never gonna change.

 

(Incidentally, my first transcript quote was also meant to demonstrate the positive emotion Milah displayed prior to Rumpel's desertion, but I don't want to wade into the Milah debate.)

 

I actually like Rumpel and I don't think his deserting the army makes him a terrible person, but I vigorously disagree with the notion that putting your own needs over others who are all facing the same thing is in any way brave. It's selfish. And yes, cowardly. He made a commitment, just like everyone else in that army. Just because he's going to have a baby, it doesn't mean he just gets to walk away now.

 

I find it interesting that in so many stories, we're supposed to identify and feel like a character's poor choice is understandable or maybe even okay because we see that character's POV. Robert Carlyle makes Sad!Rumpel so very compelling. What we aren't shown is the POV of Peasant Bob who has three children and another one on the way. We don't see Bob throwing up with fear before marching into battle. Or writing a final letter to his children in case of his death. He's fighting in spite of his fear. Let's turn around the argument about Rumpel. If Rumpel is brave for sacrificing his honor by deserting so he won't abandon his son, what does this make Bob for fighting? He's "abandoning" his children if he dies in battle? That's a pretty messed up interpretation of things, but if Rumpel dying = abandonment, then Bob dying also = abandonment. Ouch. 

 

(As an aside, I've got major issues with the way "abandonment" is thrown around on this show in general. The notion that adoption = abandonment makes me sick, so it isn't only Rumpel's story that I have problems with, but that's a topic for a different thread.)

Edited by KAOS Agent
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Rumpel: Let me tell you the truth about that day. I didn't cripple myself to get back to my son. I did it because I was scared...I joined the army to prove I wasn't a coward. But when I seen the wounded coming back from the front lines... I didn't want to die. I'm a coward, Belle. And that's never gonna change.

This was definitely a retcon like what Camera One was talking about. In general, I feel like A&E have heavily downplayed Rumple's love for Bae ever since he reunited with him. I'm not sure why. Maybe to pump up Rumpbelle instead?

 

 

That's a pretty messed up interpretation of things, but if Rumpel dying = abandonment, then Bob dying also = abandonment. Ouch.

I wouldn't call Rumple dying in battle abandonment. There wouldn't have been anything wrong with that, and yes I do agree that the POV does in fact change how the audience feels toward a character. (Regina - need I say more?)

 

 

I actually like Rumpel and I don't think his deserting the army makes him a terrible person, but I vigorously disagree with the notion that putting your own needs over others who are all facing the same thing is in any way brave. It's selfish.

From Manhattan in the episode itself, I could interpret that Rumple left the battlefield for three reasons - one, he didn't want his son growing up fatherless. Two, he didn't want to leave Milah. Three, he was scared. For what he did to put Bae first was not selfish, so I don't exactly blame him for that part. Leaving the army out of cowardice was the wrong part. But this incident, to me, falls very low on the list of bad choices Rumple made in his lifetime and I find it much more human than many of the things has he done since.

 

Bottom line - if Rumple was attempting to stop Bae from being fatherless, I can understand that. He was a loving father and I don't think his Manhattan incident detracts from that. If we're going to follow the retcon and believe Rumple when he was trying to convince Belle he was a coward, then that is another interpretation that I think is just as valid.

 

Sorry if I sound like I'm trying to be his defense attorney. I just like exercising different points of view.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Here's where I think we're having a problem. This show had Rumpel saying he didn't want to abandon Bae like his father had done to him. In both scenarios where Malcolm abandoned Rumpel, he ditched his kid by running away - either by fleeing from the authorities in the cut scene or by becoming Pan and ditching him to stay in Neverland. He did not go off to war and die. He made a conscious decision to leave his child for selfish reasons. It's a false comparison. That the show tries to parallel dying in war with ditching your kid because they are holding you back is pretty twisted. I have too many family members who have fought in the armed forces to buy any of what Rumpel is selling with his "I can't fight because I can't risk abandoning my kid like how my dad dumped me to become Peter Pan" comparison. For me, it's less about Rumpel and his decisions and more about the false parallel the narrative is selling - one which has very, very unfortunate implications.

 

I think another thing which the story ignores, because Bae was a really awesome kid who loved his papa even while he was murdering mute maids, is what Rumpel did by deserting was set Bae up for the exact same ridicule that Rumpel had faced as a child. He went off to war in the first place because the shadow of his father's cowardice had followed him his whole life. It clearly affected him deeply. By running away, he was inflicting this same pain on his newborn son, a fact which Milah brought up when Rumpel returned home from the war, but was never really addressed again except obliquely within the context of the Milah/Rumpel relationship. I guess this is yet another case of the show choosing to ignore the negative impacts of parents' choices on their children even if the choice was well-meant and/or necessary (see: Emma/Snowing).

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 Here's where I think we're having a problem. This show had Rumpel saying he didn't want to abandon Bae like his father had done to him. In both scenarios where Malcolm abandoned Rumpel, he ditched his kid by running away - either by fleeing from the authorities in the cut scene or by becoming Pan and ditching him to stay in Neverland. He did not go off to war and die. He made a conscious decision to leave his child for selfish reasons. It's a false comparison.

 

I am just going to leave it here because at the end of the day, I think we just have two different opinions about the subject. (And that's fine.)

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I never found Rumple abandoning the war as terrible and cowardly*, but I also think it should be someone's choice to join a battle and risk ending their life. That's why the draft should never be forced upon anyone, and in Rumple's case, it sounds like it was a losing battle anyways. Where Rumple's true cowardice hurt his family was his unwillingness to move and start fresh somewhere else. His refusal to compromise with Milah and later Bae is more cowardly than maiming himself to avoid certain death.

*Okay, I guess it was cowardly, but I can't really blame the guy for not wanting to fight in a battle against huge giants where the humans were clearly outmatched. I'd consider ditching, too.

Edited by Curio
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For me, it's less about Rumpel and his decisions and more about the false parallel the narrative is selling - one which has very, very unfortunate implications.

 

But it is in line with the "heroes don't kill" morality they peddle. Killing villains like Cora is framed as morally wrong. So, going to war probably falls under the same category. 

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But it is in line with the "heroes don't kill" morality they peddle. Killing villains like Cora is framed as morally wrong. So, going to war probably falls under the same category.

I would agree, since in 5x09 Arthur "murdered" Fergus on the battlefield. However, I'm not sure if ogres count or not.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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The problem is that they write for the moment, without taking context into consideration or thinking about how the big aha moment will have a trickle effect down the line or how it's affected by what's gone before.

 

As an Army brat whose father did a tour in Vietnam while I was a toddler, I take huge issue with the idea that there's anything noble or uncowardly about battlefield desertion, especially when he volunteered. Rumple wasn't drafted. He chose to go. His wife told him he didn't have to go, and he went because he wanted to prove himself. Then he got there and let other people go fight while he crippled himself to get out of having to fight. Those other men who fought were not "abandoning" their children. It might have been different if he'd been drafted, like Bae was going to be, and if they'd used supernatural coercion, as was going to happen with Bae, where they were using the Dark One to draft an army. Then, it might have been heroic to stand up and refuse to fight, especially if he rallied others around him in defiance. But choosing to go to war and then changing his mind and skipping out of the battle was a coward's move.

 

He went off to war in the first place because the shadow of his father's cowardice had followed him his whole life. It clearly affected him deeply. By running away, he was inflicting this same pain on his newborn son, a fact which Milah brought up when Rumpel returned home from the war, but was never really addressed again except obliquely within the context of the Milah/Rumpel relationship.

Yeah, they totally forgot this, and with this in mind it makes Rumple's behavior in his marriage even more baffling. He's apparently refusing to leave a village where he was already something of a town pariah because of his father's behavior, and then he became even more of a town pariah because of his own behavior, and he'd rather stay in this town where the dislike for his family spans two generations than possibly save his marriage by moving to a new place.

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It's probably a case of A&E changing their minds about the backstory of Rumple's father.  As KAOSAgent said, there was nothing analogous about what happened with Rumple's father and fighting in a war.  It makes Rumple's original motivation to go fight in the Ogres' War nonsensical.  

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Didn't Rumple know Milah was pregnant when he went to war? If so, then by going, he was doing something similar to what his dad did to him -- leaving to do something he wanted to do to make himself feel better without considering responsibility to his child. I'd have backed Rumple if he'd decided not to join up, after all, and had stayed home with his family. It's going and then backing out when he realized that war was dangerous and scary (duh) that I have a problem with.

 

But that's kind of a pattern with Rumple, where he has good intentions and then backs out or doesn't go through with them. With Bae, it wasn't just that he let Bae go through the portal, but that he agreed to do so and then backed out at the last second. If he hadn't made the deal and had said he wasn't going anywhere, then Bae could have adjusted his own plans accordingly. The whole point of going through the portal was to get to a place where Rumple wouldn't be the Dark One, so Bae probably wouldn't have gone on his own, unless he just wanted to get to a place where his father couldn't reach him. He's also done it multiple times with Belle, where he has good intentions and plans to do better but then caves at the first hint of maybe being able to get more power. Even if you don't call that cowardice, he is extremely selfish.

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Rumple didn't know that Milah was pregnant. The child seer told him that at the encampment.

 

Rumple didn't "decide" not to go through the portal. He was overcome by abject fear, which makes rational thinking and decision-making pretty much impossible.

 

Bae was also not listening to Rumple and just went ahead with his half-assed plan. He was 14, so almost a man in their culture, yet it never occurred to him that they needed to do some preparation and not just jump through the portal into the unknown with nothing bu the clothes on their backs.

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As an Army brat whose father did a tour in Vietnam while I was a toddler, I take huge issue with the idea that there's anything noble or uncowardly about battlefield desertion, especially when he volunteered. Rumple wasn't drafted. He chose to go. 

 

I thought Rumple was drafted?

 

Maybe I need to re-watch the episode because I haven't seen it since the original airing, but I always interpreted the situation as Rumple being forced to join the Ogre War, and when he told Milah about shedding his father's legacy, he was trying to find the silver lining and was fooling himself into thinking the war would make him a hero. I actually interpreted Milah's suggestion to ditch out on the war as unrealistic because could Rumple even do that legally? Once you're drafted, wouldn't that be against the rules to not show up? Isn't that also cowardly? I always found Milah to be rather wishy-washy in this episode because first she wants Rumple to ignore the draft, and then later gets upset when he ditches the war. In hindsight, Milah was probably already unhappy with the marriage, so she was putting Rumple in a bit of a lose-lose situation.

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Rumpel was drafted, but he was excited to go and prove his bravery. He was not upset about it.  I want to stay far away from the MIlah topic, but I will say that in the first part, she was worried about Rumpel and later, she was pissed off because his actions had made her a pariah (it would also have seriously affected their ability to earn an income because few would be willing to do business with a deserter - especially if their own loved ones were in harm's way).

 

One thing I'd like to point out is that everyone here is also interpreting the seer's prophecy the way Rumpel did. The seer said, "Your wife will bear you a son, but your actions on the battlefield tomorrow will leave him fatherless." She did not say he was going to die tomorrow, but Rumpel assumed this was what she was saying. Her prophecy was right on in that his maiming himself put him on the path that eventually did lead to him abandoning Bae. Had Rumpel gone on to fight bravely on the battlefield, most likely all of the other stuff wouldn't have happened. If he hadn't talked to the seer, would Rumpel have refused to fight? Would his fear have pushed him to act as he did regardless of knowledge about Bae? 

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Had Rumpel gone on to fight bravely on the battlefield, most likely all of the other stuff wouldn't have happened. If he hadn't talked to the seer, would Rumpel have refused to fight? Would his fear have pushed him to act as he did regardless of knowledge about Bae? 

 

I think it's one of those situations where fate would have eventually intervened and the proper future path would have happened no matter what Rumple decided to do. If Rumple didn't see the Seer, his natural selfishness might have come out anyways and still maimed himself. Or he might have decided to go out to the battlefield, but upon seeing the Ogres, realized the humans stood no chance and faked his death on the battlefield. Or maybe he does die on the battlefield. No matter what, I think the outcome always would have been that Rumple would leave Bae fatherless, so it's just a matter of which course of action Rumple chose to do it in the end to fulfill that fate.

Edited by Curio
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Rumple didn't "decide" not to go through the portal. He was overcome by abject fear, which makes rational thinking and decision-making pretty much impossible.

But it does say something about his character that this was his impulse and his reaction. Isn't the instinct for parents not to let go of their kids, not to act in such a way as to separate them from their children? I'm not sure I'd even classify what was going on with him as fear. He wasn't afraid of what they'd face or afraid of going through a portal. He didn't want to lose his power. His unthinking impulse was that it was better to lose his child than to lose his power, and although he later had second thoughts and spent at least a century trying to get to his son, he was doing so in a way that would allow him to maintain his power, to have it both ways.

 

I come back around to the idea that his real problem isn't so much cowardice as it is selfishness. He wants things to work out for himself without considering the impact on other people. Given a choice, he'll always choose himself. The one time he didn't was when he absorbed Neal and let himself be controlled by Zelena, but even there, was it so much about truly choosing Neal or was it more about wanting to feel better about himself because he could say he chose Neal? That choice ended up not helping Neal at all, since he died anyway, and it meant that Zelena had a pet Dark One to use as a weapon against everyone else. In that case, letting Neal go and dealing with the pain of that would have been the less selfish choice. But at least he did make a choice other than power for himself.

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I come back around to the idea that his real problem isn't so much cowardice as it is selfishness. He wants things to work out for himself without considering the impact on other people. Given a choice, he'll always choose himself.

 

Yep. What makes all of Rumple's villainous acts in Season 4 and 5 so much worse is that he did them after giving his dead son this speech:

My boy. Remember when you were small, there was a night, during the ogre's war? There was a terrible noise. It was horses' hooves thundering down the dusty path. You crawled into my bed, and I can still hear your little voice. "Papa. I'm afraid." And I guess by instinct, I just said, "don't you worry, son. Everything's gonna be fine." And you smiled at me. You know, that was the happiest moment of my life because for the first time ever, I felt like a man, that I could truly look after you, alone. Until I discovered... This. It turned me into a monster, obsessed with power, when all I really needed was you, your love. And now, through Belle, there's love in my life again. And once more, I've started it with a lie. She thinks she has the real dagger. I only lied to her in order to avenge your death. And now that I've done so, I really need the strength to give it back, be that man I should be, the man you died for. And I pledge, Baelfire, I will be that man. Your heroism... has shown me the way. I promise. I'll spend my life repaying you for that.

 

So he gives this heartfelt speech at Neal's grave, but it all amounts to nothing because Rumple has done all of these things since then:

 

  • Lied to Belle about the dagger again
  • Manipulated (or more than likely used magic on) Hook into believing his hand was cursed, instead of doing the honorable thing and giving it back
  • Blackmailed Hook into becoming his puppet
  • Didn't tell Belle about his lies when she was apologizing to him
  • Was willing to let Emma die in order to use her as a pawn for his own selfish needs
  • Stole Hook's heart and threw Emma's death in his face
  • Teamed up with Ingrid and was perfectly fine with allowing everyone in Storybrooke to die (except for Henry and Belle, which he would have had to keep lying to in order to keep up the charade)
  • Nearly killed Hook by crushing his heart
  • Stole the Operation Mongoose idea from Regina, which gave us the godawful 4B plot
  • Teamed up with the Queens of Darkness for his own selfish needs, knowing full well that bringing them to Storybrooke wouldn't be easy for the citizens
  • Lied to Belle over the Internet about his identity
  • Impersonated Hook in order to manipulate Belle into giving him more information and the dagger
  • Physically tortured Pinocchio with glee 
  • Plotted to turn Emma's heart/soul dark to save his own skin
  • Worked with the author to create a twisted reality where everyone suffered except for him (and creepily forced Belle to be a happy wife around him again even though they had broken up)
  • Failed to tell Emma about switching out the Dark One magic from Excalibur, and then proceeded to tell no one about this plan, so he gleefully watched from the sidelines as Hook sacrificed himself for a "noble" cause, even though Hook didn't know he was killing himself just so Rumple could selfishly have magic again

 

That's a huge laundry list of bad stuff. That's not just a small little backslide, that's full-on villainy. Yet Henry has the audacity to scold Emma in 5A and say, "You're bad, Emma! But Rumple's cool now because he's been good for about 10 seconds." Fuck off, Henry.

 

(It's also why I cheered when Hook chastised Rumple for loving power more than Belle and his dead son. Because it's totally true.)

Edited by Curio
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Despite all that (except the last one), he could still be the Shiny Hero of All Heroes with the Purest of All Hearts.

Still more bizarre morality from this show, where the physical condition of a part of your body that has absolutely nothing to do with anything you did counts more than your actual deeds and mindset. Rumple gets to count as a pure-hearted hero because someone else died to vacuum all the blackness out of Rumple's heart after Rumple's lifetime of evil. Rumple himself didn't repent, didn't try to change, didn't really change even with a clean heart (as seen in his subsequent actions), but hey, his heart is still pure and he did one brave thing, so he's qualified to pull Excalibur.

 

As for Rumple's desertion, etc., the moral of the story is never listen to the seer and plan your life accordingly. That never goes well. Anything you do to avoid a prophecy will only bring the prophecy about. Getting obsessed with a prophecy will just screw up your life (see also Arthur).

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Despite all that (except the last one), he could still be the Shiny Hero of All Heroes with the Purest of All Hearts.

And somehow the Shiny Hero of All Heroes with the Purest of All Hearts was capable of choosing to become the Darkest Darknese to Ever Dark.

 

 

So he gives this heartfelt speech at Neal's grave, but it all amounts to nothing because Rumple has done all of these things since then

It reinforces the idea that A&E are interested in paying Neal tribute more than actually doing any character justice.  That scene felt pointless then and it feels pointless because it didn't affect the story in the slightest. Why the heck is Rumple (at least halfway) lying to a gravestone, anyway? If his own conviction was getting to him, why did it disappear without a trace? I almost want Ghost!Neal to haunt Rumple and say, "Hey, remember that speech you gave? Looks like you screwed my legacy."

Edited by KingOfHearts
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These aspects of Rumple that have come up recently tells me that the underlying story in Once is basically Individual Versus System. On a personal level, yes, it's understandable that Rumple didn't want to leave baby Baelfire all alone with honored widow Milah. But the village:
 

Now, why would the neighbors be so mean to you and your husband?

* Is it because your husband survived by running from danger while others died trying to defend everybody?
* Is it because your husband abandoned his army brothers, making it more likely that they’ll die on the battlefield?
* Is it because the Huns represent an imminent danger to EVERYONE’S safety?
* Is it because if everyone followed Ping’s example and fled the battlefield to be with their loved ones the Huns would TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY?
* Is it because the neighbors are looking at empty chairs at empty tables every day while your husband gets to frolic outside with his son?
* Is it because the concepts of shame and honor are necessary to maintain control over a violent, feudal society?

Hat tip to Screwballninja on Tumblr.

As for this:



the physical condition of a part of your body that has absolutely nothing to do with anything you did counts more than your actual deeds and mindset


Actual deeds, mindset and relationships are more systemic than individual. This Show might be more concerned with the individual character's feelings and journey, rather than having to think up of how to show a way to navigate the challenges of co-existence. While I would have thought that the condition of that body represents something that you (general you) did, there isn't enough association for the heart to represent anything. Maybe it depends on whether a person feels guilty (broody!Hook), enraged (go Rage-ina go!), or afraid of something (Run-pelstiltskin). By now, I suspect the heart test represents whether 1.) they could afford a CGI team, that 2.) could be arsed to put together red and black. Or a props manufacturer.

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To me, it seems pretty selfish and cowardly to self-injure oneself to escape being killed in battle while letting others die in your place. Doesn't matter if he did it for his son or himself or (most likely) both. Not everyone is cut out for war, but in a feudal society where he was obligated to fight, it would be considered a crime to be a deserter. So, Rumple got off lightly if all he had to suffer was being branded the village coward.

His refusal to compromise with Milah over starting somewhere fresh is also selfish and cowardly. It's as if desertion killed what little desire Rumple had to prove himself and achieve something in the world.

ETA: There's nothing wrong with having such a protagonist in a story, but lately Rumple has turned into a less complex and more two-dimensional kind of villain. And the narrative seems confused on whether it wants us to root for him, or against him.

Edited by Rumsy4
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It reinforces the idea that A&E are interested in paying Neal tribute more than actually doing any character justice.  That scene felt pointless then and it feels pointless because it didn't affect the story in the slightest. Why the heck is Rumple (at least halfway) lying to a gravestone, anyway?

 

I've always thought that speech was a tacky (not to mention boring) way of catching the viewers up to speed after the summer break and all the Frozen-ites who had decided to try out the show.  It didn't feel heartfelt to me at all.

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Considering he turned around not 24 hours later and took the dagger back from Belle (all within the same episode as the graveside talk), I'm going with that speech being a sop to Neal fans while providing an endless monologue to catch us up on what a dick Rumpel has been in the past. It had no real meaning. Plus, like a couple weeks later in show time, Rumpel was flat out rejecting Neal the person because he wasn't the son he raised, so basically screw you, Neal!

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I've always thought that speech was a tacky (not to mention boring)

I thought it was boring too and really interrupted the episode's energy. Robert Carlyle really oversells the redemption/humanization scenes for Rumple. He can make the character look very, very pathetic and helpless, while at other times conniving and cocky. I do not believe the writers know how to allocate that. It's not so much the acting choices or directing, but the writing that declares Rumple has to be sympathetic or a "full-on hero" for x scene. Either he's a Woegina-type hero or a mustache-twirling villain. There's been very little in-between since 3B.

 

 

lately Rumple has turned into a less complex and more two-dimensional kind of villain.

Agreed. Lately he's just been bad for the sake of being bad, and A&E have retconned that it's always been that way. But at the same time, they want their cake and to eat it to with Belle being the light in his life. Sticking square pegs in circular holes is an ongoing problem in the writing that isn't exclusive to Rumple. They want Regina to be the Evil Queen but loved by heroes as well. So... I'm not sure why I'm attempting to dissect a character that is really just a puppet for the writers' fantasies. (Whatever they may be week to week.) His actions are dictated by what the plot requires instead of what he would logically do.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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What confuses me now about Rumple's Dark One situation is whether or not we're supposed to give him a pass for every bad thing he's done because of the way they portrayed Hook as a Dark One in 5A. For 4.5 seasons, the audience was supposed to view Rumple as a villain (well, at least the audience members who aren't woobie Rumple fangirls who think he can do no wrong), and even though he's had this Dark One curse inside him for centuries, most of his actions appeared to be controlled by Rumple's free will for the most part. But now that they've shown how Hook had very little control over his actions because of Nimue and the other Dark Ones in his head, are we supposed to apply that same logic to Rumple? It seems like most of us can agree that Killian was basically a puppet to Nimue's actions (except for wanting to kill Rumple...that seemed to be the only thing normal Hook might have considered), but are we now supposed to apply that to Rumple and think of him as being a puppet to Nimue as well? If so, that basically gives Rumple a free pass on every terrible thing he's done throughout the entire series.

 

Are we supposed to assume Nimue or Zoso were whispering in Rumple's ear when he was about to kill Emma? Or when he was crushing Hook's heart? Or when he attempted to kill Henry on the swing? How much of Rumple's past actions do we blame on the Dark Ones controlling Rumple's behavior, and how much do we blame it on Rumple's core personality?

Edited by Curio
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There were no voices in his head whispering that he should trick Emma and let her die thinking that she destroyed the darkness for good. Even with a clean slate, and a spanking hero title, he chose to go back to being the Dark One.

 

I think in Rumple's case, the addiction to the power speaks a lot louder than the voices in his head.

 

And I don't know that Rumple as the Dark One would want to share the kind of power he has with anyone. I think he likes being the big guy on campus. I can't see him being able to share his space with Nimue and a bunch of other Dark Ones because it's something that would diminish him.

 

There's one thing though that has me intrigued and that's what Hook went through in the vault before he emerged as the Dark One. Are those similar experiences that Emma and Rumple went through? Did Emma have to relive being bounced from home to home, landing in jail, giving up Henry? And did Rumple have to relive his father abandoning him, dying to save the town before Belle and Neal brought him back?

 

Or is this an experience that Hook alone lived through because he was tethered to the darkness against his will? We didn't see Liam dying in those flashbacks, we were shown everything that fed into Hook's cray-cray behavior. In the end, Hook didn't fall so much into the darkness as he fell into his vengeance (which is ultimately what fed the darkness and Nimue). 

Edited by YaddaYadda
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And somehow the Shiny Hero of All Heroes with the Purest of All Hearts was capable of choosing to become the Darkest Darknese to Ever Dark.

 

How appropriate - since they are headed to the Underworld, I guess this makes him D'Ded.

 

(Galavant reference - sorry couldn't help myself.)

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It seems like most of us can agree that Killian was basically a puppet to Nimue's actions (except for wanting to kill Rumple...that seemed to be the only thing normal Hook might have considered), but are we now supposed to apply that to Rumple and think of him as being a puppet to Nimue as well?

I think you have to look at how the person's actions aligned with his personal agenda vs. Nimune's/the Dark One's agenda.

 

Rumple focused most of his bad deeds on arranging his grand scheme to reach his son and then on trying to gain power so he wouldn't be tied to the dagger (and I'm not sure if that would have meant replacing the Dark One power with other power so he'd have power without the limitations of the Dark One). I'm pretty sure Nimue had zero interest in finding Bae, and I'm not sure she'd have been on board with the power grab, depending on how it affected the Darkness. Even after he'd returned from the Underworld and therefore his blood would have opened a portal from the Underworld, Rumple never showed the slightest interest in doing such a thing. I don't think he'd have wanted the past Dark Ones in town because then he wouldn't have been the most powerful person in town. It looks like, based on this, that his actions were entirely driven by his own desires, not by Nimue. Nimue had to wait until Hook became a Dark One before she could carry out this scheme.

 

On the other hand, while Hook wanted revenge against Rumple even when he wasn't the Dark One, the last thing Hook would ever have wanted was a whole army of Dark Ones in town. Dark Hook's actions were almost entirely focused on bringing back the Dark Ones, something even evil Hook wouldn't want (and we know what evil Hook's like because we've seen it). Normal Hook never would have wanted that portal opened, and he never would have wanted to send Emma's family away like that. In fact, he so didn't want it that he was eventually able to fight past the Dark One's influence to stop it. Hook in control but still evil would have killed Rumple in the duel, not just poofed away once he got enough blood to open the portal. It looks like his actions were almost entirely driven by what Nimue wanted, not what Hook wanted, aside from using revenge against Rumple as a lure to get him to cooperate.

 

The question is whether the experience was different for each Dark One -- did Rumple have more control because he wanted to become the Dark One and did so on purpose? Did the method by which Hook became the Dark One and that experience of vault rebirth change what he went through? Did Rumple always have all the past Dark Ones in his head, or was that new for the ones who became Dark Ones in a different way? They've never shown Rumple having conversations in his head with past Dark Ones. Did they never happen, or were they never important to the story?

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The question is whether the experience was different for each Dark One -- did Rumple have more control because he wanted to become the Dark One and did so on purpose? Did the method by which Hook became the Dark One and that experience of vault rebirth change what he went through?

Rumple and Emma both had clear (good intentional) goals in mind - finding Bae and protecting their family, respectively. So in my headcanon, they had better control of their power and were able to suppress Nimue's directive. Hook, on the other hand, was vulnerable and didn't take the Dark One mantel by choice. Therefore, he was able to act more like a puppet for Nimue. He was weaker. 

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Rumple The Hero should have be able to tell everyone what Nimue's ultimate goal was (she claimed that it's what every Dark One had ever wanted), and he should have been able to guess what Dark Hook wanted out of him.  He could have saved everyone a lot of time instead of his advice to go read the Dark One chronicles.  Which no one got any information out of.

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Hook, on the other hand, was vulnerable and didn't take the Dark One mantel by choice. Therefore, he was able to act more like a puppet for Nimue. He was weaker.

He was also physically weaker, since he was dying when he was made the Dark One. He'd even passed out, so he was unconscious at that point. Rumple chose to become the Dark One and did so by killing. Emma chose it as a sacrifice. They were both in positions of strength and were conscious of what they were doing. Hook was badly wounded, near death, unconscious, and was utterly terrified of it. Finding out he was alive and the Dark One was a big surprise to him. That's bound to make a big difference.

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Rumple The Hero should have be able to tell everyone what Nimue's ultimate goal was (she claimed that it's what every Dark One had ever wanted), and he should have been able to guess what Dark Hook wanted out of him.  He could have saved everyone a lot of time instead of his advice to go read the Dark One chronicles.  Which no one got any information out of.

That sounds like A&E's clumsy writing and the reason we have to do memory wipes all the time. They don't want to supply reasons why I character wouldn't share important information. 

 

 

Once he found out about Arthur, why didn't he grab the Sword, unite the Sword and the Dagger and cut himself free from the Dagger?

Wouldn't that stop him from being the Dark One? I thought he gave Guinevere the sand to prevent Arthur from searching for the Dagger.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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While Rumple wouldn't have willingly united the dagger and sword to remove the darkness from himself and stop being the Dark One, why didn't Blue mention that as an option when Bae was looking for a way to break his father's curse? She told him the only way to stop Rumple from being the Dark One was for someone else to kill him with the dagger, and the only other possible way out was to go to a world without magic where he wouldn't be a magical person anymore and therefore would be "normal" again. But it turns out there was this other way. Maybe she knew Bae wouldn't be able to do it, or maybe it required the cooperation of the current Dark One to make it happen and Rumple wouldn't willingly do it. But at the time, Bae didn't know his father was going to refuse to give up his powers, so she clearly didn't present all the options. (Though how could she when they hadn't created that option yet?)

 

And yeah, Hero Rumple should have been able to tell what the Dark One would be up to because he would have known the agenda. And if every Dark One knew about that and he didn't bother trying, then that suggests his actions as the Dark One weren't really being controlled by Nimue and the Darkness.

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Wouldn't that stop him from being the Dark One? 

 

I don't think so, since Nimue wanted Dark Emma to unite the Sword and the Dagger to destroy White Magic.

 

I thought he gave Guinevere the sand to prevent Arthur from searching for the Dagger.

He did, to get Arthur off his back.  But for someone like Rumple, it would make more sense for him to go steal Excalibur.  Why wouldn't Nimue be whispering in his ear for him to do that?

 

She told him the only way to stop Rumple from being the Dark One was for someone else to kill him with the dagger, and the only other possible way out was to go to a world without magic where he wouldn't be a magical person anymore and therefore would be "normal" again. But it turns out there was this other way. Maybe she knew Bae wouldn't be able to do it, or maybe it required the cooperation of the current Dark One to make it happen and Rumple wouldn't willingly do it.

 

No, there was no way Rumple would willingly do it, nor would he have the strength to.  Even Blue doesn't have enough to hope to believe that would happen (given how she treats Rumple, Regina, etc. with such contempt, it's arguable that she has any hope at all).  

 

Plus they make it sound like Blue knew very little of the Dark One lore.  Even August knew more than her, apparently.

Edited by Camera One
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Plus they make it sound like Blue knew very little of the Dark One lore. Even August knew more than her, apparently.

I'd wager that August knows more about the Dark One lore than the actual writers of the show.

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I don't think so, since Nimue wanted Dark Emma to unite the Sword and the Dagger to destroy White Magic.

I think that's pretty up in the air still what "snuff out the light" really meant. (Or at least, I'm still confused by it.) Merlin was going to use Excalibur to cut away his magic.

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True, it was so ambiguous.  But I do think that it would be in Nimue's interest to have the Dark One still standing after "snuffing out the light", so the Dark One would still have their power and probably more.  

 

The original Nimue became the Dark One while the dagger + sword was whole, so a Dark One could still exist even with the sword reforged.

 

Nimue said this to Emma:  "But the sword you will make has more than one use, and I am not dead yet, girl. You know where to find me when you want me."  So it seems like an instrument that both the Light forces and the Dark forces can use for their own purposes.  

 

So to me, it seems like Rumple could still have been the Dark One if he reunited Excalibur with the Dagger.

 

I suppose getting the Hat Box was a easier way to untether himself from the Dagger.

Edited by Camera One
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I don't think the problem was remaking the sword as much as it was lighting the flame. I'm guessing Rumple would have figured out a way to do it eventually since he is Rumple and all. I'm guessing it was easier to just go after the hat. Plus the sword was in the stone until Arthur pulled it out of there something like a year before the curse.

 

If we situate that in the timeline, Rumple had already gotten Anna's tear of innocence. All he needed was to put his hand back on the hat and figure out the heart bit.

 

It's easier for the stars in the sky to align with the stars in the hat than to light a flame when you're filled with darkness.

 

ETA - I'm not even sure how Emma managed to light that flame as a full on Dark One. Consistence is not our writers forte.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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ETA - I'm not even sure how Emma managed to light that flame as a full on Dark One. Consistence is not our writers forte.

 

It just never went off after she lighted it in Camelot. 

 

why didn't Blue mention that as an option when Bae was looking for a way to break his father's curse?

 

This question is merely an exercise in futility, because the answer as you mentioned, is that the writers hadn't thought of it. 

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Rumple often spun, maybe to keep the voices out of his head.

Head Rumple suggested that Emma would need a hobby since she wouldn't be sleeping and to keep her from dwelling on her own bad deeds. That may have been why he spun. Rumple does seem to have some semblance of a conscience. He knows that what he's doing is wrong. He just ignores it because he wants power more than he wants to not feel guilty. So it may or may not have been to shut out voices of past Dark Ones. Also, according to my friend who spins, spinning is kind of addictive. She carries a drop spindle and fiber in her purse for any opportunity she gets to spin.

 

Thinking more about the Dark One, how much influence Nimue has, etc., it does seem like the Dark One amplifies and darkens traits that are already there, and it wasn't until Hook came along that she got the right person in the right place with the right ingredients to carry out her scheme. Emma's tendency is to protect the people she loves, so as Dark One, she went to dangerous and potentially murderous extremes to do so. Rumple tends to be fearful and selfish, so as Dark One, he's constantly working to improve his own situation and make sure he's the most powerful person around. Hook has serious anger issues, and although that's something he's working on and getting better about in the way he acts, it's still there, and as Dark One he was a walking ball of hate, which Nimue was able to use to get what she wanted. (and I may take more thoughts about Hook related to this to the Hook thread)

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Thinking more about the Dark One, how much influence Nimue has, etc., it does seem like the Dark One amplifies and darkens traits that are already there, and it wasn't until Hook came along that she got the right person in the right place with the right ingredients to carry out her scheme. Emma's tendency is to protect the people she loves, so as Dark One, she went to dangerous and potentially murderous extremes to do so. Rumple tends to be fearful and selfish, so as Dark One, he's constantly working to improve his own situation and make sure he's the most powerful person around. Hook has serious anger issues, and although that's something he's working on and getting better about in the way he acts, it's still there, and as Dark One he was a walking ball of hate, which Nimue was able to use to get what she wanted.

 

I like this theory, and it may also explain why Hook went super dark super fast when he became the Dark One. When Rumple became the Dark One the first time around, he wasn't a bad guy or a villain. Sure, he had some bad qualities and had to be willing to kill Zoso, but he didn't dabble in years and years of villainy. Same with Emma. But with Hook, he already had a bad report card for being the villainous Captain Hook for centuries, so the Darkness was able to put a magnifying glass to that and create an even worse monster. It makes you wonder how much worse this Rumple Dark One 2.0 could be if they follow the same rules.

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Rumple probably stopped hearing the voices soon after he became the Dark One. The DO-Spirit Guide is only supposed to be present until the person fully embraces the Darkness. The fact that Head!Nimue and Head!Rumple were able to have conversations with both Dark Emma and Dark Hook until the very end implies neither of them fully embraced it. 

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Rumple probably stopped hearing the voices soon after he became the Dark One. The DO-Spirit Guide is only supposed to be present until the person fully embraces the Darkness.

Since Rumple was actively trying to become the Dark One, he'd pretty much fully embraced the darkness even before he stole the dagger.

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From the spoilers thread, no spoilers. We were discussing how Eddy said Rumple "learned something" in 5A:

Give me a freak'in break, Eddy.

 

Rumple hasn't learned crap. Let's find the reoccurring pattern, shall we:

 

* Rumple agrees to go with Bae to the Land Without Magic. He abandons his son to keep the power.

* Rumple promises Emma she can trust him with the True Love egg. He steals it so he can bring his power to Storybrooke.

* Rumple promises Belle he won't kill Regina. He uses his power to summon a wraith to kill Regina.

* Rumple vows to marry Belle. He gives her a fake dagger so he can keep his power.

* Rumple promises Belle he won't kill Zelena. He uses the real dagger use his power to kill Zelena. 

* Rumple promises to Neal's grave and Belle that we'll be a better husband. He screws his wife over by having an affair with power.

* Rumple promises the Queens of Darkness they'll get happy endings. He screws them over and takes the power.
* Rumple assures Belle he is going to be the hero she wants. He then tricks the heroes into giving him his power (and more) back.

 

He was right when he said, "If I have to choose between everyone else and me, me wins every time." That man hasn't changed a bit. He's playing the same old song and there's no reason to believe he won't in the future.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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