S01.E05: Episode 5

[Llywela]

 

Demelza gives birth and resolves to help Verity reconcile with Captain Blamey. Ross welcomes old friend Dr Dwight Enys to Cornwall, and Francis's persistent gambling threatens the security of all he holds dear.

In other news, Ross continues to want his cake and eat it too, and local miner Mark Daniel pulls out all the stops to woo and wed actress Keren, who already has her eye on a bigger prize.

 

And I've got to admit, I'm still kinda disappointed at how poor this adaptation is at fleshing out the supporting characters, who are mostly pretty non-descript yet really needn't and shouldn't be.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Llywela

[skyways]

Yes I wanted to comment on that. Can someone who hasn't read the books tell me how they saw this episode? I felt it was disjointed and had some scenes that were not given enough time to 'say' much. For instance, that gambling scene, was it clear to you why Francis was gambling his money and mine away? Or why the woman 'Margret' seems to be so .............. visible? vocal? I don't know the right word. It was understood that it was a 'business gathering' when he was explaining it to Demelza, so why was the new Doctor there?

Now I've read the books so I understand a bit more but I felt that this episode will confuse newcomers but anyone can confirm for me.

 

 

Llywella, I know the lady whose adaptation we are watching wished she was given more liberty and episodes to tell the story - in her Q&A she pointed out that she had to keep the narrow focus on Ross only to the detriment of the other characters, because of the few episodes she was given and regretted that she didn't ask for at least more episodes likely 10.

[NumberCruncher]

Yes I wanted to comment on that. Can someone who hasn't read the books tell me how they saw this episode? I felt it was disjointed and had some scenes that were not given enough time to 'say' much. For instance, that gambling scene, was it clear to you why Francis was gambling his money and mine away? Or why the woman 'Margret' seems to be so .............. visible? vocal? I don't know the right word. It was understood that it was a 'business gathering' when he was explaining it to Demelza, so why was the new Doctor there?

Now I've read the books so I understand a bit more but I felt that this episode will confuse newcomers but anyone can confirm for me.

I haven't read the books but I didn't find it all that disjointed, TBH. I thought it was very clear why Francis was gambling his money and mine away--especially after the multiple scenes discussing the price collusion and its effect on the mine owners' profits and the scene where Francis opts out of the new business strategy proposed by Ross to fight back. I also deduced that the reason Francis doesn't partner with Ross and the others is because he's in too deep with George.

As far as why Margaret was at the party--I assumed it was partly because of her relationship with Francis (after all, he's buying her lavish gifts) or even perhaps because she was well-known among the aristocrats--I assume that at one point or another any one of the men on the room had visited her, so it's not hard to believe that she would be a fixture at a gathering of her "clientele".

I thought the Doctor was there because it was a gathering of mine owners and his study of diseases among miners is why he's in the area to begin with. Also, it's been made clear that he's both a friend of Ross's and a member of his social class, so it wasn't a stretch to see him socializing among his peers.

I may be strange, but I'm not all that confused about the stories of the supporting characters. I don't feel the least bit slighted with regard to the storyline or characters. So far everything has made sense to me.

Edited April 6, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[steeledwithakiss]

It does look disjointed for me and as a consequence I don't really care about the secondary characters story in that adaptation. I don't think it's that big of a problem. They could not really give the books justice with only 8 episodes. And the fact that we don't have any voice-overs (not that I wanted vo) to explain a few things, it does get confusing.

 

I wasn't sure how they would deal with Ross indecisiveness, and well can't say I like it. I don't know if it was the way AT chose to play it, but apart from the birth of Julia he looked so bored/impatient with Demelza. I get the honeyoon is over (7/8 months have passed), but that certainly was an abrupt change from episode 4.

Edited April 6, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Glade]

I was really surprised when Verity's buea mentioned that years had passed since their engagement was broken...other then the birth of the the two babies, there really is no indication that any great length of time has passed at all.  A voiceover might have helped with that.  Anyway, it is too bad there aren't at least 10 episodes, but I haven't read the books or seen the previous series, so I don't know what is being missed and don't feel the story is that short-changed as it is.  Personally, I didn't see any big deviation from last episode, as far as Ross and Demelza; and Ross was only staring towards Julia when she was standing next to his wife, so it wasn't that creepy.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Glade

[Anothermi]

Glade, I think you meant Elizabeth not Julia. Julia is the baby. What he said there about each lacking what the other has, is straight from the book. Did you notice the throat clearing after he caught himself staring a bit too much? lol

What I noticed in that scene was how comfortable he was in talking with Verity while he was staring at the two women (Demelza and Elizabeth). He forgot he was talking to another woman when she (IMHO jesting) suggested he might like to have them both. Her expression at his response was priceless.  I think now-a-days we'd label that expression TMI!

[Glaze Crazy]

Yes I wanted to comment on that. Can someone who hasn't read the books tell me how they saw this episode? I felt it was disjointed and had some scenes that were not given enough time to 'say' much. For instance, that gambling scene, was it clear to you why Francis was gambling his money and mine away? Or why the woman 'Margret' seems to be so .............. visible? vocal? I don't know the right word. It was understood that it was a 'business gathering' when he was explaining it to Demelza, so why was the new Doctor there?

Now I've read the books so I understand a bit more but I felt that this episode will confuse newcomers but anyone can confirm for me.

 

 

I also didn't have trouble understanding why Francis was gambling away his assets.  They have been clear that he was already in debt and was spending a lot of time gambling and whoring, which I interpreted as as much of an addiction as an attempt to recoup his losses.  Plus he previously said to Ross that his inheritance was already half-mortgaged and would soon be fully mortgaged. 

 

When Demelza had read the invite and said she was looking forward to going, I LOL'd when Ross had to tell her it "wasn't that kind of party."  I just went with it being a stag party type thing.  As to Margaret being at the men's party, I just assumed she was there on George Warleggan's dime, as additional entertainment, since he was familiar with her profession.  Plus she's been shown having conversations with Ross in the past, even if he's not hiring her for the evening, so it was understandable that he would exchange quips with her.  I've only watched it once (so far) but weren't there other women in the room?  I thought there was at least one more there near the fireplace.  I just figured since the new doctor character was a friend of Ross's he was brought along when Ross came. 

 

I was less understanding about why the actress came back for Mark.  It seemed she must have seen him as a way out of the road show business, but I didn't get what she was expecting or why she was disappointed when she saw the house he was providing for her.  I never got why she would be expecting more from a working man in a small village, since she should have some idea what life was like in these places.

 

Liked the growth in confidence for Demelza and how she was smoothly misdirecting Ross about her and Verity's visit to the shops.  Being all "I couldn't choose between the colors so I'll have to go back. Hey Verity, want to do this again next week?"  Now that Francis is no longer a man of means, can poor Verity go ahead and make her own choice of the captain and get out of Francis' house?  One less mouth to feed, right? 

[Anothermi]

That was hilarious. Poor Verity wished she could stop her ears!! But do you know what I liked here? It reminded me of when Ross in the book pondered about Verity - that if it was allowed that he could marry two women, he would have liked to marry Verity just for her kindness and generosity of spirit. I thought that was really nice.

Awww. Now I can believe that of the Ross that we are seeing now so I think they've got that relationship down very well. 

[Pogojoco]

I was really surprised when Verity's buea mentioned that years had passed since their engagement was broken...other then the birth of the the two babies, there really is no indication that any great length of time has passed at all.  A voiceover might have helped with that.  Anyway, it is too bad there aren't at least 10 episodes, but I haven't read the books or seen the previous series, so I don't know what is being missed and don't feel the story is that short-changed as it is.  Personally, I didn't see any big deviation from last episode, as far as Ross and Demelza; and Ross was only staring towards Julia when she was standing next to his wife, so it wasn't that creepy.

Demelza's hair is about a foot longer than it was in the first few episodes, so I took that as a mark of the passage of time. hahahaha

[Primetimer]

Demelza gives birth to a daughter and she has things to say.

Read the story

[Nidratime]

In the book we are told Margaret married a rich man who died at the age of 40 not long after. At the time of the card party she is therefore a wealthy widow who is permitted to move in upper-class circles.

 

 

But this wasn't that kind of a party. I don't think there were any women there who weren't "on the clock." For what it was, all those men looked miserable, and actually, there didn't seem to be many people there.

 

If Francis lost the mine in a card game, then he's no longer the owner. I expected him to announce to the villagers that there would be a new owner, not that it was closing ... although it would probably be doing that too as soon as it's in new hands. But that's the thing with this adaptation. We're -- or I'm -- missing a lot of the fine points.

[dubbel zout]

Keren's aspirations did come across - as did her eye for Dwight - but everything was so compressed, her motivations weren't made clear at all, and they needed to be.

 

She's basically a gold-digger. Is there more we need to know?

 

I haven't read the books or seen the earlier version, and while the passage of time is sometimes unclear, I don't feel like I'm not getting the whole story. Of course stuff from the book is going to be dropped or compressed. But as someone who has no other frame of reference, I don't miss what I don't know isn't there.

 

I did miss shirtless Ross this episode, though.

Edited July 20, 2015 by dubbel zout

[CalamityBoPeep]

But this wasn't that kind of a party. I don't think there were any women there who weren't "on the clock." For what it was, all those men looked miserable, and actually, there didn't seem to be many people there.

 

If Francis lost the mine in a card game, then he's no longer the owner. I expected him to announce to the villagers that there would be a new owner, not that it was closing ... although it would probably be doing that too as soon as it's in new hands. But that's the thing with this adaptation. We're -- or I'm -- missing a lot of the fine points.

 

I took the party the same way.  All men, two women... I just figured both were "on the clock" too, so to speak.  Looked like the lamest party ever, though... basically, aside from Ross and the doctor, everyone who was there, was there to finish off Francis. 

 

As a non-book reader, yes, I understood Francis's situation, too.  I also understood that the actress set her sights on the doctor, at her wedding.  I did wonder how it does the Warleggens any good to close up a mine... maybe by driving up the price of copper from the others in the area, by diminishing supply?  So I assume that means Ross's profits will start to increase too?  I'm not sure I buy the motivations of the bankers, but whatever.

 

All in all, the episode did seem somewhat slow.

[buttersister]

I enjoyed the set decoration very much. Wondering, though, if Ross' increased profits also means Ross' increased shirt wearing?

[NumberCruncher]

As a non-book reader, yes, I understood Francis's situation, too.  I also understood that the actress set her sights on the doctor, at her wedding.  I did wonder how it does the Warleggens any good to close up a mine... maybe by driving up the price of copper from the others in the area, by diminishing supply?  So I assume that means Ross's profits will start to increase too?  I'm not sure I buy the motivations of the bankers, but whatever.

If the Warleggans can close down mines then yes, they can reduce competition and have complete power over supply. If might seem counter-intuitive from an economic perspective since reduced supply usually equals more demand and then that raises the price, but they're playing the long game. They are the power behind the smelting companies that are bidding for the copper supply. As such, they suppress the prices so that they are artificially low. The mines then can't bring in enough profit to keep operating and are forced to shut down. The Warleggans then snatch up the mines so that they can create a monopoly.

Edited July 20, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[CalamityBoPeep]

I enjoyed the set decoration very much. Wondering, though, if Ross' increased profits also means Ross' increased shirt wearing?

 

Lordy, I hope not! :-D

 

If the Warleggans can close down mines then yes, they can reduce competition and have complete power over supply. If might seem counter-intuitive from an economic perspective since reduced supply usually equals more demand and then that raises the price, but they're playing the long game. They are the power behind the smelting companies that are bidding for the copper supply. As such, they suppress the prices so that they are artificially low. The mines then can't bring in enough profit to keep operating and are forced to shut down. The Warleggans then snatch up the mines so that they can create a monopoly.

 

Ah... ok, so the long game was clearly something I wasn't picking up.  It makes more sense the way you've put it here.  My speculations were all over the place, until I finally just decided it didn't matter... I was just telling myself that whatever the Warleggans want is bad news and they are the black-hats.  Then I was just going to let it go.  (With or without singing about it.  Though, the cold does bother me... ;-) )

[WatchrTina]

 

Can someone who hasn't read the books tell me how they saw this episode? I felt it was disjointed and had some scenes that were not given enough time to 'say' much. For instance, that gambling scene, was it clear to you why Francis was gambling his money and mine away? Or why the woman 'Margret' seems to be so .............. visible? vocal? I don't know the right word. It was understood that it was a 'business gathering' when he was explaining it to Demelza, so why was the new Doctor there?

Non-reader, first-time viewer here.  Generally speaking this episode was a real bummer after the joy of the last episode.  I did wonder what a prostitute was doing at that house party ("Margaret" is the hooker with the mole that both the Poldark cousins have done business with, right?)  That didn't make sense in light of all the 18th and 19th century British literature I've read.  So no, I can't imagine what she was doing at that gathering.  I didn't think twice about the doctor being there -- it just looked like a men's gambling party and I assumed he was considered fresh grist for the mill (the more the merrier if your goal is to win money, right?).  As for Francis gambling away the mines -- it was clear that he was in dire financial straights and also something of an idiot, so his decision to bet the mill didn't really surprise me.  

 

The one comment that did NOT make sense in the episode was Demelza's comment to the useless servants saying they taught her . . . something about bettering herself or thinking herself worthy to hold a higher position?  Actually I found that whole exchange so confusing I couldn't get her point.  As far as I could tell in previous episodes those two had hardly anything to do with her so I have no idea what she was making reference to.

[Nampara]

The one comment that did NOT make sense in the episode was Demelza's comment to the useless servants saying they taught her . . . something about bettering herself or thinking herself worthy to hold a higher position?  Actually I found that whole exchange so confusing I couldn't get her point.  As far as I could tell in previous episodes those two had hardly anything to do with her so I have no idea what she was making reference to.

 

That exchange was in episode 4, not episode 5. It's explained in the episode 4 thread, but basically the point was that Demelza was tricking gullible Jud and Prudie into accepting her as their mistress (i.e., someone who can now order them around) by giving them credit for her rise. The scene is clearer in the unedited U.K. version, because Jud and Prudie continue talking after Demelza leaves the room, and they reach exactly the conclusions that she was pushing them toward.

[DHDancer]

OK I must be the only person who found this the first enjoyable episode.  The pace was slow enough to follow and to be able to connect the story elements.  Of course, I do know the story (read the books) but I've really struggled with the episodes till now leaping around all over the place. This one to me I didn't feel I had to fill in the gaps.

 

I do agree with the mishandling of the Dwight introduction: his being new to the district, and to Ross, is all very important.   And what's most important is that he represents a new medical approach (remember poor Charles last episode wondering if he had any blood left)

 

Elizabeth is still coming across as too sympathetic a character IMO.... I'm finally buying into Demelza, but Ross is a bit too lovey-dovey for character and the period -- he should be taking a fair time to start openly expressing his love: right now it feels too modern.  And sorry folks I enjoyed a bare-chest-free episode!!!  I cannot reconcile the major 5 o'clock shadow though -- this is so wrong. Apart from that, like Demelza I'm finally buying into AT's representation (I do wish he'd groom his hair back into a standard male pony tail though). They are not the book characters, but they are finally becoming acceptable to me (except the red hair and 5 o'clock shadow -- that continues to be so wrong)

Edited July 20, 2015 by DHDancer

[jjj]

I don't get at all that "Margaret" is a rich widow who can move in society circles.  She has been seen very recently as a prostitute servicing Francis, and clearly, in past episodes, was well known as a working girl among the gentry.  

 

This was the first episode where I felt it was very disjointed.  Dwight Ennis showing up, then appearing at the "house party", was a very bland entrance and presence.  I thought at least he would be called on for some medical emergency related to the baby's birth; but he could be a banker for all we have seen of his physician skills.  And Keren, aside from that  "huh?" at the cottage, seems so random.  (I saw the 1970s show, no need to explain to me.)  Even the auction was completely lacking in tension -- just like air let out of a balloon when it was happening. 

 

What I am really missing in this episode is a sense of actual tension, as opposed to being told I should think that Verity/Blamey or Mark/Keren is tense.  None of that had dramatic tension -- it just was happening.  The house party was so brief it was hard to tell what was going on.  (And I got the sense from Demelza that the invitation was to her plus Ross?) 

[duVerre]

 

... only when the play ended did Ross borrow a horse to gallop home just as the baby was born. Either it was a really short labour or a really long play!

 

The play was All's Well That Ends Well. Five acts long. Granted, touring actors would probably change it to their needs, and may have shortened it too. Even today, it's rare to see a Shakespeare production that hasn't cut the text to some degree, just to focus it and give it pace. That said, even if you cut Shakespeare by (let's say) a third, you're still looking at a pretty lengthy matinee.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I'm presuming that Francis gambling Trenwith away is a part of the book, but I've always wondered about the legalities of that trope (which shows up quite a bit in romance novels).  It just seems to me that would be a difficult claim to try to cash in.

 

I was basically struck by relief that in our modern age, women can support themselves. I did feel bad for Francis but worse for Verity and Elizabeth, who basically entirely at the mercy of the men around them.

 

 

[Nidratime]

I'm presuming that Francis gambling Trenwith away is a part of the book, but I've always wondered about the legalities of that trope (which shows up quite a bit in romance novels).  It just seems to me that would be a difficult claim to try to cash in.

 

 

He didn't gamble away Trenwith (the estate) that I'm aware of. He gambled away the mine, wheal Grambler, which was almost played out at that point.

[Llywela]

I'm presuming that Francis gambling Trenwith away is a part of the book, but I've always wondered about the legalities of that trope (which shows up quite a bit in romance novels).  It just seems to me that would be a difficult claim to try to cash in.

Francis has not lost Trenwith, he has lost the mine which was the family's primary source of income. And as far as that goes,

Grambler in the book is not lost in a card game, but succumbs to inevitable economic pressure which has been years in the offing. Francis does gamble away vast sums of money that would have been better invested in the mine or estate (in hopes of winning big and providing himself with enough capital to turn things around), but nothing could have saved Grambler - too old, too rambling, too costly to run. Having him lose it in a card game is just another example of the show's character assassination of Francis.

 

However, the way it plays out in the show does make business sense - the mine is lost to a relative of the Warleggans, and the Warleggans, it has been established, like to snap up mines and then close them down, so as to control production and boost profit at their primary ventures. So they would never have kept Grambler open - the moment control passed to them, they shut it down as a matter of course as unprofitable. They never intended to run it as a going concern; they just wanted to see off a competitor. Francis would have kept it running a while longer, at a loss, in hopes of striking lucky, but he couldn't have kept it going for long at this point.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Llywela

[Shades of Red]

I am a first time viewer of the series and haven't read the books so don't know the story at all.  I can follow what is happening, but it's really jarring to see the time jumps.  This isn't a show you can miss scenes and be back in the story - at least that's the way I feel.   I'm not sure if it's the editing courtesy of PBS or if it's the way it's filmed that's throwing me off.  I'm hoping to rent the DVDs to see what differences they are and to possibly have some things a little more fleshed out.

[Milz]

Is Geoffrey Charles a vampire or one of Peter Pan's Lost Boys because he looked no older than 15 months old in this episode. He was born a couple of months before Ross and D were married. And would have been around 6-8 months old during Christmas. This episode opens with D at about 8 months pregnant (making Geoffrey Charles at least 18 -20 months old). When next we see Julia after her birth, she's maybe one or two months old, which would put Geoffrey Charles at maybe 2 years old.

 

Anyhow, I've read the Grambler being gambled away thoughts. It makes sense to me why Francis would bet Grambler because it was failing anyhow. But it doesn't make sense to me why Warleggan's cousin would accept it. (Maybe he's a vampire like Geoffrey Charles.)

[Llywela]

Anyhow, I've read the Grambler being gambled away thoughts. It makes sense to me why Francis would bet Grambler because it was failing anyhow. But it doesn't make sense to me why Warleggan's cousin would accept it.

Because he knows it will be of value to his family to be able to shut down a competitor, I imagine - plus there's the sheer satisfaction that comes of being able to take something from a gentleman.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Thanks for the clarification on what he actually gambled away, I wasn't paying close enough attention, obviously.  But while I agree that it makes business sense, I still wonder about the legalities of gambling away property like that.  I suspect something like that really wouldn't be legal today but I wonder about the legalities at the time.

 

It's interesting that they made it direct - I think I would preferred that he had just gone so heavily into debt that it was the only way out of it.  I mean, that is essentially what we were made to understand anyway, but I guess this moved the plot along more quickly.

[Llywela]

Thanks for the clarification on what he actually gambled away, I wasn't paying close enough attention, obviously.  But while I agree that it makes business sense, I still wonder about the legalities of gambling away property like that.  I suspect something like that really wouldn't be legal today but I wonder about the legalities at the time.

 

It's interesting that they made it direct - I think I would preferred that he had just gone so heavily into debt that it was the only way out of it.  I mean, that is essentially what we were made to understand anyway, but I guess this moved the plot along more quickly.

A gentleman's word is his bond and all that - gambling debts were taken very seriously, and so was honour (to the point where duels were still being fought over what to us would seem really trivial offences), so I think with the amount of witnesses present, the transaction would have been seen as binding and following through on it a point of honour.

 

I agree on your second point and regret very much that plot expediency led to Francis again being painted in a worse light than was necessary.

[Milz]

Because he knows it will be of value to his family to be able to shut down a competitor, I imagine - plus there's the sheer satisfaction that comes of being able to take something from a gentleman.

 

If Grambler was still producing ore, that would make sense. But Grambler, supposedly, has been worked out so it would have shut down regardless. Not to mention the price of ore was low. I'm not sure if the UK in the 1790s had the same taxation practices as it did in the Victorian era, but I would suspect the property taxes on a mine would be a pain in the neck. Grambler seems like a white elephant.

[Milz]

Grambler was still producing, or it wouldn't have been open to be closed, so to speak. It wasn't profitable, costing as much or more to run than it earned, but it was still open - nearly exhausted but not quite - and so still sending copper to the markets (even if low grade), with the prospect always of a rich new vein being struck - the hope of which would be why Francis kept it limping along as long as possible. It wouldn't have been much competition to the Warleggans' main ventures, but competition enough to be worth their while destroying, and shutting it down early also removes that remote possibility of a new vein being found, which would have turned the mine's fortunes around.

 

 

I see your point, but it still doesn't makes sense to me from a business view because they are stuck with a useless mine which is more expensive to keep, let alone operate . However  from an "I'm a ass and want to be the biggest ass in the world" point of view, it makes perfect sense.

[applecrisp]

Oh I forgot.  I actually liked Demelza's dad slut shaming the strumpet who has been so mean to her.  Put your bosoms away lady.

[Llywela]

I see your point, but it still doesn't makes sense to me from a business view because they are stuck with a useless mine which is more expensive to keep, let alone operate .

Well, no - once the mine is closed it costs them nothing to keep, because they don't keep it. The staff are laid off and the mine stands derelict - no outlay required (no such thing as redundancy packages in this era). What matters is stopping the ore of a competitor from reaching the market, even if that ore isn't the best grade, because every little bit of competition impacts on prices and profits. And while they own the mine, no one else can re-open it (even if anyone did come along with enough capital to attempt it - unlikely, because it would require too much investment)

 

It's also important to bear in mind that the other ventures the Warleggans seek to protect probably aren't doing a great deal better than Grambler themselves. Mining was an ancient industry in Cornwall, but at the time this series is set it was on its last legs. All the mines were struggling. The Warleggans would be very cynical and careful in selecting which to preserve and which to shut down - the most profitable in the first case and the least profitable in the last. Grambler was a very old mine and cost a fortune to run, so shutting it down is a no-brainer if you have other business interests to preserve. For the Poldarks, however, it was not only their primary source of income, but also the livelihood on which their workers depended, so they kept it going for as long as possible, watching profit margins reducing all the while, staving off the inevitable while hoping for a miracle. An operation like the Warleggans run had no personal stake in it - profit margins are falling, therefore it goes in order to preserve the ones with slightly better prospects.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Llywela

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I see your point, but it still doesn't makes sense to me from a business view because they are stuck with a useless mine which is more expensive to keep, let alone operate . However  from an "I'm a ass and want to be the biggest ass in the world" point of view, it makes perfect sense.

 

In my view, it makes sense.  They aren't likely to operate it since it is tapped out, they'll just shut it down (or they should, if they have any business sense).  But buying it prevents Francis from becoming a real competitor just in case they did find another vein of copper ore.  And it also prevents Francis from joining forces with Ross to become a rival force in their own right, which is what he and his father should have done from the beginning.

[dubbel zout]

And what's most important is that he represents a new medical approach

I loved Dr. Choake giving him a "Pfft!" look and walking away.

 

He didn't gamble away Trenwith (the estate)

I don't think inheritance laws would have allowed that, anyway, what with entailment and such. Of course, if you've gambled away the thing that's allowing your to maintain the estate, it can mean basically the same thing.

[Milz]

Well, no - once the mine is closed it costs them nothing to keep, because they don't keep it. The staff are laid off and the mine stands derelict - no outlay required (no such thing as redundancy packages in this era). What matters is stopping the ore of a competitor from reaching the market, even if that ore isn't the best grade, because every little bit of competition impacts on prices and profits. And while they own the mine, no one else can re-open it (even if anyone did come along with enough capital to attempt it - unlikely, because it would require too much investment)

 

It's also important to bear in mind that the other ventures the Warleggans seek to protect probably aren't doing a great deal better than Grambler themselves. Mining was an ancient industry in Cornwall, but at the time this series is set it was on its last legs. All the mines were struggling. The Warleggans would be very cynical and careful in selecting which to preserve and which to shut down - the most profitable in the first case and the least profitable in the last. Grambler was a very old mine and cost a fortune to run, so shutting it down is a no-brainer if you have other business interests to preserve. For the Poldarks, however, it was not only their primary source of income, but also the livelihood on which their workers depended, so they kept it going for as long as possible, watching profit margins reducing all the while, staving off the inevitable while hoping for a miracle. An operation like the Warleggans run had no personal stake in it - profit margins are falling, therefore it goes in order to preserve the ones with slightly better prospects.

 

Correct. With mining already on a decline, acquiring mines doesn't make good business sense. Investing in other ventures does if the goal is to make money. If the goal is to make life miserable for everyone, then investing in a dying industry makes sense.

 

I'm don't know what the property tax rates were in the UK during that era, but with the previous series of wars in the American colonies, and the upcoming Napoleonic wars, I suspect taxation will be a way to finance these activities.

[Llywela]

Correct. With mining already on a decline, acquiring mines doesn't make good business sense. Investing in other ventures does if the goal is to make money. If the goal is to make life miserable for everyone, then investing in a dying industry makes sense.

Acquiring and protecting the interests of mines that are profitable makes good business sense in a district in which mining is the primary industry - all roads in that part of Cornwall lead back to the mines eventually, even as the industry slowly dies. The Warleggans make the bulk of their fortune via usury - the mines are a side-operation for them, one that grew out of their banking operation. They are money lenders. They loan money to struggling landowners at a high rate of interest and then use those loans to control them; at their own will they can call in those loans and take ownership of any assets. In that way they come into possession of a number of mines, some more profitable than others, so they nurture the ones making the most money, while shutting down any that are more marginal, so as to limit outgoings and maximise profits.

 

I loved Dr. Choake giving him a "Pfft!" look and walking away.

Heh. Dr Choake represents the old school of medicine - the type of doctor who entered the profession in the main because they had to earn a living and the profession gave them a decent income and a degree of respectability. That type of physician was in it for the status - their word was law. They made their diagnoses and prescribed treatment according to time-honoured fads and theories; if the patient survived the doctor would loudly proclaim his own success while if the patient died it was decried as their own fault and payment expected anyway. So no wonder a man like Choake looks askance at someone like Dwight, who is actually interested in the welfare of patients and makes his diagnoses and prescriptions on the basis of clinical observation rather than an outdated trend.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Llywela

[dubbel zout]

I wouldn't want Dr. Choake to treat me for a hangnail. Yikes.

[Nampara]

I loved Dr. Choake giving him a "Pfft!" look and walking away.

 

PBS deleted Choake's retort. He basically warned Enys that he'd end up living under a hedge if he didn't cultivate patients who can pay.

[whatsatool]

Elizabeth was actually my favorite character this episode. Demelza seens to be fishing for a compliment, but I will excuse that on the pregnancy.

[Nampara]

I would rather see a series focused on Francis, Elizabeth, George, Margaret, Ruth, Ruth's milquetoast husband ...

 

The BBC and PBS present TRENEGLOS, an epic tale of dining and decorum. John Treneglos returns from his midday nap to find his plans for the afternoon in ruins: his estate still not ready to be inherited, due to his father's uncommon persistence in remaining alive, and his favorite armchair promised by his wife, Ruth, to his cousin who is visiting for the day! Can Treneglos piece together his shattered life and find love in his daydreams of the alluring mistress of a neighboring estate?

[Milz]

Acquiring and protecting the interests of mines that are profitable makes good business sense in a district in which mining is the primary industry - all roads in that part of Cornwall lead back to the mines eventually, even as the industry slowly dies. The Warleggans make the bulk of their fortune via usury - the mines are a side-operation for them, one that grew out of their banking operation. They are money lenders. They loan money to struggling landowners at a high rate of interest and then use those loans to control them; at their own will they can call in those loans and take ownership of any assets. In that way they come into possession of a number of mines, some more profitable than others, so they nurture the ones making the most money, while shutting down any that are more marginal, so as to limit outgoings and maximise profits.

 

 

Profit is what's left after operational expenses (including wages) have been paid. Grambler can barely pay wages, so it's not profitable. More than likely, it's just breaking even. Francis' non-management doesn't help either.  A worked out mine or one that's almost worked out has no value, which makes it a bad investment, and that's why it doesn't make sense to me from a business perspective.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Milz

[chocolatetruffle]

Well, that was choppy.  After viewing, I swear my neck was sore from being slung from one scene to the next.  Dear Production Team, transitions are a worthy concept.  It seemed like no scene was longer than 30 seconds to a minute and then it was on to the next.  And that was the strangest birth sequence I've ever seen filmed.  I hope these short, choppy scenes are not a trend because I loved last week's episode that allowed more time for the scenes (and characters) to breathe.

 

I'm not a book reader or previous viewer so am mostly unspoiled.  Nevertheless, I did get the major plot points, despite the poor execution in editing: Francis' mine loss; new doctor + Keren = trouble for Mark; Ross still has a hankering for Elizabeth; Verity still wants Blamey; Demelza STILL feels inferior to the upper crust; and Ross is embarking on a new venture w/ the smelting "cartel" that intrigues me.  But overall, I found this episode disappointing, especially when compared to last week's, which fairly sparkled.

[Llywela]

Profit is what's left after operational expenses (including wages) have been paid. Grambler can barely pay wages, so it's not profitable. More than likely, it's just breaking even. Francis' non-management doesn't help either.  A worked out mine or one that's almost worked out has no value, which makes it a bad investment, and that's why it doesn't make sense to me from a business perspective.

Yes, exactly. All of the above is why the Warleggans had Grambler closed down the moment they took ownership. It wasn't profitable for them to run - and indeed they never had any intention of doing any such thing. Francis was keeping it open because it was all he and his workers had, and he still had hopes of a) winning big, giving him capital to re-invest in the mine, or b) striking a rich new vein that would bring the mine back into clear profit.

 

The Warleggans weren't interested in running Grambler as a mine. They just wanted it shut down because it was a competitor to their other interests. It isn't an investment in a going concern. It's removal of a business rival. We see it happen all the time in business even to this day - a large firm will buy out a smaller operation in the same field and then immediately shut it down; it is worth the outlay for the removal of the competition, giving them a monopoly. For the Warleggans, the same principle applies. Their outlay is minimal - Sanson lost nothing on the card game, so they effectively get the mine for nothing. And in return, they gain a tighter stranglehold over ore supply, and the possibility of Grambler's revival is removed permanently. No one will ever strike a rich new vein down there now.

[shandy]

After last week's sublime episode, this was more pedestrian but I loved the puritan take down of Ruth Teague's (sylla)bubs and  was happy with any scene Verity was in. The actress doesn't have the physical advantages of the two leads, but my stars, she makes sure the goodness of Verity's soul fills the screen.  

 

I DID love  the cinematography of Verity and D strolling down the street and the rioters coming charging round the corner like Orcs from a Peter Jackson flick. The extras certainly enjoyed themselves and had a sort of 'Wicker Man' vibe. 

 

Talking of milquetoasts, I was primed for Dr Dwight to be some kind of hottie. What a let down! I was also shocked to realize the actor playing Francis is American. He certainly has a particular kind of Englishness nailed.  

[Milz]

Yes, exactly. All of the above is why the Warleggans had Grambler closed down the moment they took ownership. It wasn't profitable for them to run - and indeed they never had any intention of doing any such thing. Francis was keeping it open because it was all he and his workers had, and he still had hopes of a) winning big, giving him capital to re-invest in the mine, or b) striking a rich new vein that would bring the mine back into clear profit.

 

The Warleggans weren't interested in running Grambler as a mine. They just wanted it shut down because it was a competitor to their other interests. It isn't an investment in a going concern. It's removal of a business rival. We see it happen all the time in business even to this day - a large firm will buy out a smaller operation in the same field and then immediately shut it down; it is worth the outlay for the removal of the competition, giving them a monopoly. For the Warleggans, the same principle applies. Their outlay is minimal - Sanson lost nothing on the card game, so they effectively get the mine for nothing. And in return, they gain a tighter stranglehold over ore supply, and the possibility of Grambler's revival is removed permanently. No one will ever strike a rich new vein down there now.

 

As I wrote, if the reason for letting Francis put Grambler up was to be asses, that makes sense. But from a purely business point of view it doesn't because Grambler had no value. A basket of pilchards would be more profitable for the Warleggans than Grambler ever would.

 

Mining is a limited resource. When a mine is worked out or unworkable it becomes a liability for the owner, not an asset. Something that's sitting redundant isn't making money but losing it. Owning a lot of nothing is owning nothing.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Milz

[Nidratime]

Yes, exactly. All of the above is why the Warleggans had Grambler closed down the moment they took ownership. It wasn't profitable for them to run - and indeed they never had any intention of doing any such thing. Francis was keeping it open because it was all he and his workers had, and he still had hopes of a) winning big, giving him capital to re-invest in the mine, or b) striking a rich new vein that would bring the mine back into clear profit.

 

 

Plus, no matter what one thinks of Francis, he -- like Ross -- does have roots in that community and a sense of noblesse oblige towards those who depend on the Poldark estate and mines. It's definitely not as detectable as it is with Ross but it's there -- unlike the Warleggans who have loyalties to no one but themselves. You can also see it in Elizabeth and Verity who insist upon being with Francis when he gives the bad news to the miners.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

As I wrote, if the reason for letting Francis put Grambler up was to be asses, that makes sense. But from a purely business point of view it doesn't because Grambler had no value. A basket of pilchards would be more profitable for the Warleggans than Grambler ever would.

 

Mining is a limited resource. When a mine is worked out or unworkable it becomes a liability for the owner, not an asset. Something that's sitting redundant isn't making money but losing it. Owning a lot of nothing is owning nothing.

 

It makes absolute business sense to put out a potential business rival out of business if you can. That's what the Warleggans did. I don't find it that confusing.

[Milz]

It makes absolute business sense to put out a potential business rival out of business if you can. That's what the Warleggans did. I don't find it that confusing.

 

With a mine that's worked out Francis wouldn't be a potential business rival because the mine is not-productive. Even if Francis converts Trenwith lands to farming, he still wouldn't be a potential business rival because farming isn't lucrative.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

With a mine that's worked out Francis wouldn't be a potential business rival because the mine is not-productive. Even if Francis converts Trenwith lands to farming, he still wouldn't be a potential business rival because farming isn't lucrative.

 

We just saw in the previous episode that they were able to find a copper vein at Wheal Leisure, despite the fact that the mine had been closed for a number of years.  The Warleggans believe - rightly - that the best way for such a discovery to not happen at Grambler is for them to own it and not operate it.  So, yes, they believed that it made business sense to purchase the operation of a potential rival in order to forestall any possibilities that Grambler could become profitable again.  And since it was won in a card game, they did it in a way that presented no risk to them since they didn't actually put any money into the purchase.  Acquiring something that may potentially rival your operation at no risk = good business sense. 

Edited July 20, 2015 by eleanorofaquitaine