Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[magdalene]

I am rooting for some of the Lannisters to survive. I don't think all Lannisters are the villains - actually there is a case to be made that Tyrion Lannister is the protagonist of these books.  Besides my love for Jaime - which has nothing to do with the actors looks and I fully understand that nobody only familiar with the first book can understand having affection for book Jaime or that some folks may never feel any affection for Jaime - I always had a soft spot for sweet little Tommen and Ser Pounce, and Myrcella. And of course Tyrion - though he doesn't need my rooting for him being author's pet and having such clear protagonists privilege. I just don't see Tyrion Lannister as a villain.

 

I also think there are characters that have villainous aspects in this universe, like the Hound, and the Ramsay Boltons which are another kettle of fish entirely.

Edited June 19, 2015 by magdalene

[Triskan]

 Early this year I got a PM from someone who asked if they could ask me one question:  Did I really find the stuff at the Wall as boring as I said I did...and I did answer them at some length but also indicated we couldn't really have an exchange and I assumed it was because of the "People really tend to like Jon Snow much more than I have" thing that has been present throughout.  

 

Hehehe, that was me (but I lost that account password). ^^

 

Actually, I was very curious to get more of your thoughts on Jon, but now that you've started reading, you've already noticed how much more internal he's in the books, so that's it ! :)

Although I'm one of the few who's defended Kit from the first. I always had the feeling he knew exactly what he was doing with his character and he really gets Jon, imo.

 

By the way, speaking of the Watch, it's always been more complete in the books. The Watch on page is full of a great gallery of characters that sadly the show could never feature entirely, so you'll meet quite the team there ! ^^

Edited June 20, 2015 by Triskan

[Last Time Lord]

I have to say, Book 1 Renly has made much more of an impression on me than show!Renly did in the first season.

He had a line in the book that Stannis took his wife to bed in the same mindset as he entered battle with, which I thought was very funny, and there was also him laughing at the name of Joffrey's sword, to the point that Robert essentially kicked him out of the tent, which… was he even in that episode?

[Lady S.]

I don't feel like digging through the posts to quote it, but I definitely agree about Kit's Jon looking too old to play the teen angst and suffering from having constant pouty face instead of an internal monologue. One thing I will never understand is why they had him and Richard Madden have facial hair through most of the first season, clean shaven he actually does look pretty baby-faced and even Richard looks a great deal younger in the feast scenes in the pilot. I feel like Robb was more matured by the aging up (no ridiculous sword waving, no standing up to yell about Benjen not being dead, no crying when putting Bran to bed), while Jon was still left in teen angst mode, which made Robb come off a lot better than Jon in s1 to me. That's why one of my fave onscreen Robb moments is him hacking away at a tree and ruining his sword after Ned's death, because it's the most innocent teenager move he ever got to make. 

[Haleth]

One thing I will never understand is why they had him and Richard Madden have facial hair through most of the first season,

 

Oh, that manly Stark DNA!  I'm surprised Bran didn't have facial hair too.  Or Arya. ;)  The seed is strong, y'all.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

Oh...ha!  Well then, hi again, Triskan :-) So you know firsthand what I'm talking about.  I only ever got to have these incredibly guarded exchanges and it was that way from both sides of the equation.  

 

Okay...so....Jon was the one having the prophetic dream about the crypt?  Is Jon a seer?  I'm going to guess not, because that seems like a HUGE character note to leave out, rather than Jon having a prophetic dream.   So in the books they really spare no "He's special, I tell thee!" treatment?  Mya, you asked if it is better supported on the page and it is, but it's also starting to feel l like a story that the first season decided to take a pass on depicting in a meaningful way.  

 

I've actually never thought Kit Harrington was a bad actor or even a middling one.  If anything, he really brought verisimilitude to teenage angst.  The problem is when it is externalized like that into dialogue, it makes it less "My, what a born leader" and more "yes, yes, we know, poor you, we get it" even when it is fully warranted it doesn't wear elegantly on anyone.  It's an awkward and frequently unlovely stage of development that a lot of people go through and I think that it was actually that Kit Harrington did a very good job of acting it all out.   

 

I feel for the show, because almost everything that I've encountered in Jon so far, that I didn't like when it was on the screen, makes him more likable because ....and maybe this says something about emotional repression or something...but it is easier to admire a character who feels a lot of conflict while not inflicting it on people around him.  So he's a teen, but the kind of teen that tends to wear well in life: he wears strife on the inside.  Show Jon wore it on his sleeve.  

 

Admittedly, it's not like they had a choice.  The only way to get an internal thought process into a screen adaptation is to either convert it into expository dialogue or go with the dreaded voice over.   Once you go voice over, you can't go back.  I guess they could have had Jon being an early fan of journaling, but I doubt that would have helped.  

 

I'm an entirely unsure what to make of the "Eh? Wha...?  Jon was having that dream?"  Is it going to turn out that all the Starks busily have that dream? 

 

 

 

He had a line in the book that Stannis took his wife to bed in the same mindset as he entered battle with, which I thought was very funny, and there was also him laughing at the name of Joffrey's sword, to the point that Robert essentially kicked him out of the tent, which… was he even in that episode?

 

No.  Show Renly got terribly short shrift.  About the only development he got was having him be afraid of blood and Loras shaving him.   Over the years it became apparent that Loras was truly in love with Renly and the same held true for how Renly felt about Loras.  On the screen I had no idea what to make of their relationship.  I couldn't tell if it was Loras just manipulating Renly to move against Robert and I guess I'm going to find out if that really happened while Robert was still alive, or not.  But that's what the show depicted.  That Loras tried to manipulate Renly into a rebellion against Robert to seize the Throne and poor Renly did not come off well because of it.  

 

Already, if they stick with the "Robert was alive, if sodden and whoring, when Renly began to think of staging a rebellion" story they have supported it better and that line about "Lion's Tooth?"  helps make that more plausible.  I'm actually a little ticked that the show left that stuff out, because I just thought Renly was a slimeball in that first season for plotting against his brother.  It wasn't until the second season that I even understood that Renly was meant to be rather likable and that he and Loras loved one another.  it really would have helped me in terms of emotional investment in Renly's fate if I'd understood that he clearly had a lot of disdain not just for Robert's failings as a ruler, but for the heir apparent and what that might mean to the realm. 

 

Also: Okay, there's Sam.  On the one hand, the show did a really good job of faithfully introducing Sam's character.   I grew to like Sam over time, and I did like him better in his introduction here.  I can't tell if it is because I grew to like Sam in the series or if the book just introduces the truly heart-breaking stuff about Sam in a more accessible manner.  I know the information about his father threatening to have hm killed on a hunt. What the hell?  Sam's dad was skinning the deer while giving the "I'm a sinister dad" talk that the show later had Tywin doing?  Okay. I don't get the choice quite yet.  I guess the show really felt it was a powerful visual and since they weren't going to show us poor, fat Sam being cast out from his family like that, they still wanted to use that visceral image to drive home a point.  

 

Unless Tywin really does berate Jaime while skinning a deer also, which would be a really weird theme.  

Edited June 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Protar]

Unless Tywin really does berate Jaime while skinning a deer also, which would be a really weird theme.  

 

Funny story, initially they were going to continue that theme in the show to a degree. Just as Tywin skinning a deer represented him planning Lannister dominion over House Baratheon, there was also a deleted scene in Season 3 of Tywin fishing, to represent his plots against the Tullys. Cue jokes about Tywin pruning roses and sunbathing in Season 4. 

[Haleth]

And kicking a puppy.

[Seerow]

And kicking a puppy.

I don't recall Tywin ever doing anything directly to the Cleganes.....

[stillshimpy]

That is awesome and it's actually sort of sad that they didn't do it.  The show could use more humor.   

 

Welp, Ned's been Tobho Mott's now and met Gendry and I found that entire chapter a lot more enjoyable than the material in the show.  For one thing, I really appreciate knowing that Ned had a sense of humor about life in general.  

 

It's taken a little bit to sink in that Jory was Rodrik's son, by the way which is pretty freaking depressing seeing as the Cassels are going to decimated before long.  The reason I like show Jory so much was that sarcasm was so entirely lost on him, it was downright cute.  He really only had one line that I recall in the show:  about nearly losing an eye during a battle (and Jaime being sure to stab him through that eye in front of Ned is what cemented my dislike of Jaime for years to come) , but it was his "Aye, he's good lad" about Theon that was just hilarious to me.  

 

Nice to know that Gendry's master was actually made of much braver stuff than the show depicted. Not that they depicted him much at all, we met him briefly and then the next thing we knew, he'd heaved out Gendry, presumably out of fear.  So it was a nice surprise that he appeared to have something resembling honor.  I'm sure Ramsay ends up making a belt out of him or something equally horrifying. 

 

I'm feeling a bit glum after Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion.  I think Catelyn comes off much worse in the book, in that instance, than she did in the series.  In the series she really seems to be taking -- if not pains to keep out of Tyrion's sight -- at least some sort of attempt to keep out of his sight.  In the series we're never given any indication that she's walking into an Inn where she went as a child and simply counting on not being recognized, or that she's ignored advice from Rodrik to stay clear of the damned place in the first place.  

 

So that was a frustrating chapter.  

 

What was pretty darned satisfying to learn was that apparently Jon Arryn had Stannis in his confidence and they searched together for evidence about the illegitimacy of Robert's heirs.    Now that's a freaking detail that I cannot understand why in the world the TV series just abandoned entirely.  First of all, it makes both Arryn and Stannis look a metric fuckton of smarter, both of them.  Secondly, it makes me feel a little less leery about Stannis's eventual quest for the Throne.   

It just always struck me as pretty bloody convenient that Stannis had a power hungry witch and forces seemingly at the ready on the say so of a letter from Ned.  It just made him seem overly anxious to seize power and willing to take the word of a letter he'd have no true reason to believe was even penned by Ned Stark.   It makes a LOT more sense if it ends up being confirmation of things he and Jon Arryn had already discovered together.  

 

Also, it helps remove some of the stink of idiocy from Jon Arryn, because from the series alone, he comes off as not just being wildly inept as a Hand, not just goofy levels of inept but genuinely dim.  Instead he apparently took the person it made the most sense to into his confidence and then that person had the brains to get the fuck out of dodge.  

 

In addition to that, I can see why you're all urging me to look at the maps.  Qarth has already been mentioned and then the other thing I haven't brought up yet, is that apparently Dany knew who and what the Unsullied were from the start of this story.    It doesn't make a big difference in the story, as far as I can tell, but a lot of things that the story eventually (in some cases after quite a long time) introduces in the series were always present in the books.  

 

Things like practicing warlocks, for instance.  Poor Sam.  

Edited June 20, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I liked book Jory, but I loved show Jory mostly for the same reasons you state. I think he's another one of those actors that brought a lot of charisma to his role; he just doesn't get mentioned as often in that context because he was basically a background character in a small handful of scenes in the first half of season one.

And since we're getting close to the halfway point of the first season, I'm curious what you think of where they chose to end each episode? For season 1, at least, I think I was able to call 7-8 of the episodes' final scenes ahead of time. Coming at things from the other direction, I was wondering what your thoughts on those particular act breaks were (if any).

[Haleth]

I don't recall Tywin ever doing anything directly to the Cleganes.....

I meant as a stand in for the wolves.

Well, I thought it was funny.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Haleth

[Delta1212]

shimpy, depending on how much further you've read, you may have passed it already, but just in case, be on the look out for one of the many meta-references scattered throughout the books. I think you're around the point where The Three Stooges briefly show up. Edited June 21, 2015 by Delta1212

[benteen]

As a father, Randyll Tarly makes the Great Santini look too liberal.

[Last Time Lord]

I'm posting this here, because I've gone a little ahead of where the official re-read thread is, and don't want to overtake the discussion.

Sansa at the tournament was just a fascinating read, getting into her thoughts as she watched it, and how she didn't cry when The Mountain killed the guy while jousting, but she was sad because he died before he accomplished anything noteworthy, and will never have songs created about his deeds.

[Protar]

That is awesome and it's actually sort of sad that they didn't do it.  The show could use more humor.   

 

You can watch it here: 

:)

[Delta1212]

The most interesting part of the Sansa chapter for me this time around is that the tournament isn't just a blur of names. Almost everyone either shows up later in a more prominent role or else is related to someone more recognizable. It's really quite impressive.

[Protar]

The tourney chapters are some the best parts of A Game of Thrones for that reason. Martin expressed a bit of disappointment that the Tourney couldn't be quite so lavish in the show - in the books this is pretty much the biggest event in years. I love Bronze Yohn and his rune engraved armour. Martin has a real way with fleshing out minor characters.

[stillshimpy]

It would have been the stuff of awesome legend if they had included those scenes.  Charles Dance knows how to make a delightful meal out of a scene, without chewing the scenery within an inch of its life. Plus, there is far too little of Pycelle being called on that bullshit and the actor is good enough to keep pace with Dance, but he hardly ever gets to do anything other than dodder.  

 

 

 

Sansa at the tournament was just a fascinating read, getting into her thoughts as she watched it, and how she didn't cry when The Mountain killed the guy while jousting, but she was sad because he died before he accomplished anything noteworthy, and will never have songs created about his deeds.

 

Okay, so I'm really trying to pull a wait-and-see on Sansa's character, because here's what I assume:  The crap that goes down when Ned is imprisoned, leading up to his demise, is actually the stuff that made people hate Sansa, right? I mean, it has to be, because other than that, she's merely a little silly and fanciful but mostly she's irksome because a world told her she had to exist in a certain template and she believed that.  It does display a stunning lack of imagination, to be sure, but she's a character that seems to really have people react to her negatively.   In that first season and then again in the second, we did have people forcibly spoil the group or try to hang out and then they'd disappear abruptly...so yeah, you didn't need to have the last name Holmes to figure it out.  

Thus far she just wants to do the socially appropriate thing in all circumstances and whereas that's boring as hell in a fictional character, it's hardly the stuff of outrage. The socially appropriate thing being the key part of that and not to be confused with the right thing as guided by a moral center.  It's just, she doesn't seem to perceive that there is a difference in those two things.  She's a kid.  That behavior in a grown woman? Yeah, I can see not liking her at all. As it is, I think she makes sense as a character in this world.  

 

So I'm guessing she is going to do something so appalling that I will freak the hell out and wish I never typed these words, but for the moment?  She's just silly.  She believes in things, wholly invests in the worth of things, that I know to be without merit or worthiness.  That's it.  That's all I'm finding in her.   She's not interesting because of it, but then Fanny Price in Mansfield Price is the least popular Austen protagonist because that's almost all she does throughout...rule followers are not the stuff of great stories.  The House of Mirth is one of my favorite books of all time and Lily Bart is as a character also, because  as a woman, I only escaped that sort of fate by my place in a timeline, not through any extraordinary action on my own part.  Others did extraordinary things and I ended up growing up being told, "yup, you can do anything, if you want to".   So I guess I have inherent sympathy for characters who aren't doing anything extraordinary, just hanging out and acting in the world in the ways they were told are possible.    I loved Lily Bart's character in House of Mirth but in the end, rather than do something against all rules of decency, she burns a bunch of letter and kills herself because there's no way for her to live in that world as who she actually is.  She'll be changed by it no matter what.  

 

So whether or not that turns out to have any merit to it as an observation , I guess I will find out.  I'm just saying, about half the time I think Sansa gets held on the hook for trying to do what she was told was the socially appropriate thing rather than the right thing....and then not choosing a genteel overdose rather than learning to survive in the world outside Wnterfell.  

 

I'm not even sure why I'm committing this all to words right on the cusp of the stuff that will almost certainly make me wish I could take it back, but I guess I wanted to hang it all out there because if I do end up needing to take it all back, then at least I've outlined why I have long been Team Sansa in terms of defending her.  It's not her fault that she was damned good at stuff I know to have so little lasting merit in a life.  Victim of a system, not the architect of it, basically.  

 

*sixty book walkers start selecting the hats with the most indigestible pieces they can find for me to have to eat afterward....the words Steam Punk Millinery are used in twenty different households....Google is confused but intrigued by this new type of search...spybots gather marketing data and the world tiltes gently towards: Produce more towering tophats with barbed wire ribbons *

 

 

 

depending on how much further you've read, you may have passed it already, but just in case, be on the look out for one of the many meta-references scattered throughout the books. I think you're around the point where The Three Stooges briefly show up.

 

Boy this whole story is so incredibly meta as it is, would you mind giving me an example of a specific one?  It's just, this whole tale is like a long march of George R. R. Martin wants you to know that he found the world a very different place than the fantasy novels of his youth would suggest it was going to be:  Rule followers get kicked in the teeth, goodness is not it's own reward, if the Prince meets the Pauper, that Pauper will rue the fucking day, but not for long.    I absolutely don't mean that as any kind of insult, either, this is just so clearly a story written by a fantasy fan who grew up, studied history and decided that it was high time someone told a fantasy story with an added dash of 'and also the stuff most of this is based on?  Not for the meek or faint of heart " .  

 

This entire story is like Welcome to Meta-Land!  What I thought after I grew up.  First ride on the tour? It's a harsh world after all! 

 

Is Janos one of the three stooges, because his description sure sounds like that's the case.  

 

Please tell me we never find out what Arya was going to do to the poor freaking cat.  Even in the series that detail has always bothered me.  "I was chasing a cat."  "Well now, that's fucking alarming as hell.  Why gods, why?" 

 

Other things that are of note:  Ned goes in all his "I'm a Stark" Starkiness not because "To hell with them, let them look" but because it's the thing that will get Mott to spill the "What was Jon Arryn doing here?" beans, right?  

 

On "Oh...there's a shadow of show Hound, vs. book Hound" and part of what led to my musings about Sansa. She was actually pretty kind and compassionate to someone who rewarded her for it by threatening her life.  I think that's actually what made me think of Fanny Price.  Fanny Price wanted to do the appropriate and kind thing ....Sansa Stark just seems like a combination a lot of female characters throughout the history of literature.  I don't mean "she's a ripoff character!" I mean that just as this tale seems to be a response to "What fantasy novels told me to believe about people when I was growing up, vs. how the real world is" ....Sansa Stark's character seems to be a response to the heroines of classic literature.  

 

Also Little Bird as a nickname was a putdown.  Okay.  

 

Someone upthread asked what I thought about Septa's obvious preference for Sansa over Arya.  I think it went a long way towards creating both of the characters.  Sansa turned the "I am Sansa:  Prim and prissy to an annoying degree.  Why would I ever wish to sweat of all unladylike things?"  She got a lot of approval and validation for it from Septa Mordane (who I'm guessing just represents those confining standards, as she has no personality other than stating them) ...Arya could never win the Septa's validation or affirmation, because she wasn't good at those things.  But since historically the thought of building someone's self-esteem without an action thought to merit it is a completely foreign one....Septa Mordane's character construct makes a lot of sense.  She represents Societal Approval for the Girl People of that World.  

 

I'm guessing.  Pretty sure the lady still ends up having her head removed and used as a grim wall-hanging, so she'll certainly get hers anyway.  

 

But yeah, I guess I don't really take a firm position on her: She did her job.  She praised the girl who made doing her job easy and reflected well on her.  She picked on and berated the girl who didn't have the aptitude to make Septa look good at her job.  She kind of sucks, but again: It's the suckitude of the structure that I tend to focus on.  

 

ETA:  So it startled the hell out of me when Renly showed Ned a small portrait of Margaery, hoping she'd look like Lyanna Stark (so Margaery really is a stand in for Anne Boleyn in a lot of ways?  That makes Natalie Dormer's casting HILARIOUS .....but so ....they were planning on what....? Trying to get Robert to set aside Cersei because they thought Margaery could work some besotting charm?  Intriguing.  

 

Also.....a huge complaint I had throughout the darned show is that there is no portraiture and the only time we someone depicted, they are either dead, or so gonna die imminently (Joffrey's statue)....and it's kind of a big detail to leave out, because if portraiture exists, you don't have to have met someone to recognize them...which makes some of the flitting up and down public roads a little more fraught with peril.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Holmbo]

I think one good reason to dislike Sansa so far is her thought:

"At first she thought she hated [Joffrey] for what they’d done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya."

It's one thing for a person to act as society tells them and another thing to completely reshape what they see to fit their word view.

She's very young though so I think it's excusable.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Holmbo

[Seerow]

Please tell me we never find out what Arya was going to do to the poor freaking cat.  Even in the series that detail has always bothered me.  "I was chasing a cat."  "Well now, that's fucking alarming as hell.  Why gods, why?"

 

I'm pretty sure that she is just out catching cats as a training exercise from Syrio. She's not killing them or anything, feral cats just don't like to be caught, so successfully sneaking up on one and being quick/quiet enough to grab it is good practice.

[stillshimpy]

"At first she thought she hated [Joffrey] for what they’d done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya."

 

She's a kid who views her sister as the source of her misery and doesn't want to let go of (an admittedly truly stupid) dream about achieving the pinnacle of womanly achievement -- Marry the guy who will be King.    

 

Yeah, it sucks, but almost anyone who ever had a sibling thought they hated them and blamed them for everything at some point.  Plus, I think it would be nigh on impossible for Sansa not to blame Arya for Lady's death.  Arya drove Nymeria away because she understood "They'll kill her" and so did Jory.  Arya had NO WAY of knowing, or predicting that anyone could be such a sadist as to kill another kid's pet, as a revenge move.   So it's not like there is any way, at all, for Sansa to really get what was going on there, or for Arya either.  But from where Sansa stands?  Arya drove her own pet away , or certainly came back without her.   In a million years there would be no way for Arya to have figured out where that might lead, but it makes emotional sense that that goes into Sansa's blaming of Arya.  It is unfair.  But it is human.  

And yes, the bulk of my sympathy goes to Arya there, and by bulk, I mean pretty much all.  I just don't think Sansa's thought process makes her despicable. 

 

But there are a lot of really sophisticated emotional constructs behind that action by Cersei.  Behind all the power plays that went into forming the murder of that poor creature.  That Sansa doesn't have a prayer of sussing them all out and blames the targets that are a) easiest for her to comprehend "if only Arya had done what she was told!" is actually kind of a fair criticism for someone who always does what she is told to levy at another who doesn't.   b) the target that allows her to hold on to the stuff she has dreamed about, that also makes sense.  

 

Grown people do that all the time.  When we criticize another's actions, at the root of that is the -- if entirely subconscious , still reliably present -- feeling of "Why can't everyone shape up and be more like me?"  I do it when I experience that moment of irritation that my husband has left a coffee cup sitting out, rather than putting it in the dishwasher.  Or when I discover the damned thing in the sink.   

 

We all do that kind of thing and maybe that is why it sparks such a response?  I mean, maybe there is just a truly elevated soul out there who doesn't employ convenient denial of facts out there.  There certainly must be, but I'm guessing they are  either on their last Earthly incarnation before ascending: Or likely not eleven years old thinking about the pain in the butt sister (or even 13 as the TV series would put forth).  

 

I can't blame Sansa for being the very young version of what the world told her to be.  I also don't blame Arya even a tiny little bit, but I don't blame either of them for not getting what a psychopath is, because they've never met a Joffrey before and it's not like they've taken psych 101 (even if Martin has)....and they are both characters playing twenty thousand leagues above their own head right now....which seems to be part of Martin's design.  

 

Another key aspect is that I don't think I need to choose one side or the other in that.  Arya and Sansa are both victims and I can be on both of their sides, because I can understand both of their actions and mindsets.   

 

I'm a grown woman and if someone got my dog killed? Whether or not it was a valid or fair accusation wouldn't be chief in my mind, if I could blame someone, I probably would.  I don't think that I'm particularly unusual in that one.  Oh woe unto thee, them and theirs, but would I still have stupid, petty and self-interested rationalizations going on?  I hope I don't find out.  Ever.  But I'm a pretty fallible human, so I'm guessing that I would, because I've met me vs.  the coffee cup in the sink and the moment of "The dishwasher is literally three inches in a different direction....WHY, why, why...okay, higher self, higher self....doesn't matter....I'm rinsing and placing and....zen zen zen zen.  Still...gawd.  zen zen zen." 

 

I think Sansa is a Fears character and Arya a Hopes.  Sansa representing what we hope we are not and sometimes fear that we are.  Arya representing what I hope I could be and fear I am not. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

We all do that kind of thing and maybe that is why it sparks such a response? I mean, maybe there is just a truly elevated soul out there who doesn't employ convenient denial of facts out there. There certainly must be, but I'm guessing they are either on their last Earthly incarnation before ascending

Nah, probably too busy being angry with the rest of us for not being more like them.

[Skeeter22]

I still blame Ned the most in that incident. He should have sent Lady and the girls back to Winterfell. He did the absolute wrong thing for his family. He made no effort to protect Sansa, and he never once considers her wellbeing, emotionally or physically. If 11 year-old Sansa is supposed to realize that Joffrey is terrible, why doesn't Ned? Either she realizes that her whole future is in the hands of a budding psychopath and her father doesn't care enough about her to stop the marriage, or she finds a way to excuse Joffrey's behavior and shift blame.

[Delta1212]

Interesting note, they did have the Hound deliver that speech to Sansa, but there was an issue with the shooting schedule and they couldn't film it, so Littlefinger delivered it instead because the actor was available on set when they needed it done.

[stillshimpy]

I still blame Ned the most in that incident. He should have sent Lady and the girls back to Winterfell. He did the absolute wrong thing for his family. He made no effort to protect Sansa, and he never once considers her wellbeing, emotionally or physically.

 

For ultimate blame I guess I'm going to go with Cersei and Joffrey.  Although Joffrey likely can't entirely help what he is -- broken on a very fundamental level -- I blame him for wanting to torture a poor kid who just was playing a game with a friend.  

 

I mean, for sheer, "My God, you suck." I can't beat that blame assignment.  Taking as a given though that Joffrey will be Joffrey, world without end, yadda yadda, then Cersei being cruel just to stick it to her husband wins for "I blame you" ....after that, Robert for fucking letting let that shit go down on his watch.  Order Lady sent back to Winterfell.  Take some responsibility for the chaos around you, Robert (and we all know, I'm fond of the character, but that was weak sauce dressed with crumbled cowardice and lack of effort).  

 

On the sliding scale of blame I next have Ned, who shouldn't have insisted on bringing Arya in the first place which he did chiefly because it was his own way of "Fucking cup in the sink bullshit...FINE....I'll be The Hand....but your children go with me" to Cat.  Then to Cat for pushing Ned to be The Hand.  

 

Then for Septa Mordane for being so ineffectual that she apparently left the management of an unmanageable Arya to Sansa and the people who dwell at the bottom of that blame tower are Poor dead Micah, poor Arya who was just playing a damned game and ends up feeling like she got poor Micah murdered and then Sansa....who was just trying to have a damned picnic and was only called upon to do the thing that every.other.stinkin'.adult in that scenario took a complete pass on that led up to that moment:  Preventing obvious train wrecks and taking some damned responsibility for them.  

 

That's part of where my Scoody-esque "Ruh?" comes from in this.  Yes, Sansa lied.  Holy shit, did a lot of things and a lot of "I pass on my adult responsibilities to do anything" shit go into putting a kid in front of a Queen who is a known jerk.  

 

Arya was only ever with the Wagon's Ho! train to Kings Landing because Ned felt like being miffed about Cat's coffee cup anyway.  

 

Everyone is so thoroughly covered in "well, that went about as well as things do when you try to avoid responsibility for stuff that went down on your watch" and Arya always gets an entire pass for running away...but she should, because she's a little girl....and so is Sansa, she's just not as little.  

 

But pretty much responsibility for that crap goes on the "You must be Tall Enough to Play this Game" sliding scale of "The taller you are, the more responsible I am likely holding you.  Unless you are a tall kid, in which case....Kiddishness trumps Height."   Sansa not managing to be better than every single adult involved in that debacle is not the stuff of outrage to me.  

 

Then the two beings that have all of my sympathy and none of the "Now really, did you have to?" on that are Micah's father being given something he thought was a pig, but was his child's body (god almighty) and then Lady, looking trustingly and lovingly at the person who doesn't actually want to kill her, but feels he must anyway.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[benteen]

The fact that Ned wasn't scared of by Joffrey's very alarming behavior speaks poorly of him.

[Lady S.]

I still blame Ned the most in that incident. He should have sent Lady and the girls back to Winterfell. He did the absolute wrong thing for his family. He made no effort to protect Sansa, and he never once considers her wellbeing, emotionally or physically. If 11 year-old Sansa is supposed to realize that Joffrey is terrible, why doesn't Ned? Either she realizes that her whole future is in the hands of a budding psychopath and her father doesn't care enough about her to stop the marriage, or she finds a way to excuse Joffrey's behavior and shift blame.

Yeah, how does someone who was forced to kill his child's beloved pet not even talk to his daughter about it afterward? He only stepped in with Arya after he saw her run out of the dining hall, but Sansa needed the talk about family loyalty and the dangers of KL even moreso. He didn't want the betrothal to Joffers in the first place, and it's likely he always intended to have it set it aside after his investigation of Cersei was done, but he let Sansa believe, even after Joff showed his true colors, that this was the guy she was supposed to spend the rest of her life with. So no wonder it felt like an unfair 180 whiplash to Sansa when he did tell her the wedding's off and he was shipping her back home. I have to wonder what difference could have been made if he'd even tried talking to her before the tourney when she was still unhappy in her betrothal. And yes, if he weren't sleep deprived at the time, I'd blame him more for not even asking King Bobby if Lady could be sent alive back to Winterfell.

 

On the subject of Renly, did you see the part where he called poor Shireen "that ugly daughter of his (Stan's)"? That asshole deserved what he got just for that imo. I was saying in our re-read thread that if Bobby is Ed IV, and Stan is Dick III, then Renly is George of Clarence. I also think the plot Anne Boleyning Marg means that book Renly knew about the twincest and was just waiting to reveal it until Bobby had already fallen for Margy, since he'd need a way to set aside Joff and Tommen as well as Cersei so the new heir could be half Tyrell, and then he'd just have to wait for Bobby to drink and eat himself into an early grave as intended so that Renly and the Tyrells could be the power behind the throne for the new child king.

[ambi76]

On the subject of Renly, did you see the part where he called poor Shireen "that ugly daughter of his (Stan's)"? That asshole deserved what he got just for that imo.

 

Really? He deserved to be murdered by a shadow demon for saying something nasty about a sick child? Or just fannish hyperbole? I can never tell, because that's a bit fucked up to me and I'll be the first to say that Renly was an asshole and early-twenties brat par excellence. That's why he and Loras were such a good match after all. ;-P

 

That they left out the Renly/Tyrell scheeming about Marg in season 1 is understandable, although with Dormer as Marg that could actually have been hilarious instead of just utterly creepy like in the books (just imagine Mark Addy drooling all over Dormer's cleavage ... okay, maybe still creepy). I don't think Renly wanted to be king from the start, but really just get rid of the Lannisters and help his boyfriends family while at it. I like the show idea though, that when everything went to hell, Loras probably proposed that idea and Renly was all: Sure why not? I'm awesome after all.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76

[stillshimpy]

I think Ned makes a bargain without understanding the stakes of it entirely.  I think he gets that Sansa is unlikely to marry Joffrey, because he's off to help figure out if Joffrey's mother was one of the people who killed Jon Arryn (surrogate father to both Ned and Robert).   So he has to know, "Uh...yeah.  So not gonna happen, but I need to make nice and keep Robert placated so that he'll be open to hearing this from me."  

 

I really do think he is on the hook for not choosing to leave Arya at home though:  She's too young for court and it would be no insult or affront to anyone to leave her with her mother at Winterfell.  Ned really didn't need to take the entire household with him.  He left Robb at Winterfell because  he needed to stay to manage in his father's stead, etc. etc.  an excuse of Arya was inches away in the "she's freaking 9...spare her court" but he doesn't, in part because he is miffed at Cat for insisting that he become The Hand. 

 

So I think he believes it doesn't matter as much as it might if he actually believe Sansa was going to marry Joffrey.  Instead he seems to view that whole thing as a placeholder and device to placate....so it shouldn't matter all that much, you know?  I mean, he'd be far more likely to freak the fuck out if he really thought, "E-fucking-gads, THAT'S what is set to marry my daughter?  Oh I do not think so!!"  and act if he didn't have matters of murder, conspiracy and impending war occupying his mind...and likely already knowing that they won't marry because of them.  Why would he flip out when he realizes what a creep Joffrey is?  He doesn't actually think she's going to marry him anyway.  The mistake he made was only in underestimating how much it would all matter to Sansa, but again, slightly more pressing concerns over things he would presumably think aren't going to matter that much to her, because she's little better than a child. 

 

Also, here's another thing about history:  matches were made that never saw fruition and since Ned thinks he's there to play some sort of Boom Goes The Dynamite game with the Lannisters to prevent a war and keep the kingdom safe, I can forgive his relatively hands off parenting.  

 

He does presumably know that it will be snowing in the tropics of all seven hells before Sansa is actually going to marry that thing.  So why raise the fuss when there is so much to be fussed about?

 

Ned isn't on the hook for lacking prescience either.    Apparently Cersei knows Robert well enough to know that if he is forbidden to fight in the tournament in front of Gods and Everyone, then that is the easiest way to get him to fight in the damned tournament.   Maybe Ned could have pressed the point, won the day and gotten them all back to fucking Winterfell and would that he could have, because ....it's not going to end well for anyone with the name of Stark that he failed to.  

 

But he thinks he's doing the best thing he can for his family by taking his own steps to prevent an actual war.  

 

I can see why he had that foremost in his mind, up to and including his daughter's safety and happiness, over the fate of an engagement for a marriage he knows will not take place anyway.    Ned's not much of a chess player, but he was able to see those few moves ahead, apparently.  

 

ETA: I did see that line from Renly.  It was an unkind remark, to be sure, however it isn't as if he said it to Shireen, within her hearing or to anyone the remark was intended to hurt.  It makes him insensitive, demeaning and unkind towards someone who....isn't there.  

 

Again, a sin I think most of us have shared at one point or another.  Beware the shadows, I take it. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

Really? He deserved to be murdered by a shadow demon for saying something nasty about a sick child? Or just fannish hyperbole? I can never tell, because that's a bit fucked up to me and I'll be the first to say that Renly was an asshole and early-twenties brat par excellence. That's why he and Loras were such a good match after all. ;-P

 

Lol, it's fannish hyperbole, sorry. I don't really care much either way, I just think Renly wasn't some martyr with only good intentions at heart. He was an asshole and not thinking through usurpation plans is not the best politics. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Lady S.

[ambi76]

I just think Renly wasn't some martyr with only good intentions at heart.

 

Gods forbid. I can see what D&D ment to do with their very-modernish-twenty-first-century-intelectual-sensitive-gay-dude Renly but I don't think it quite worked.

[stillshimpy]

I asked Mya the other day who D&D are and I take it they are the showrunners?  

 

Well I thought Renly's characterization in the first season was almost non-existent.   Aside from that scene with Loras, where a foley artist went so nuts with razor scraping and then slurping sounds it was borderline hilarious and incredibly distracting, there just wasn't much Renly on the screen.  He was played by a handsome actor, with a perpetually pleasant expression...and then on the Stomp Hunt....he suddenly blurted out some version of "You totally suck as a king anyway...." and stomped away (which is part of the reason I've always called it the Stomp Hunt, because between Robert crashing around in the woods and Renly stomping off in a fit of ....whatever that was...but it looked like it was Renly deciding to try and overthrow his brother) ...only to be seen again looking shaken after Robert was gored....

 

I can't say they really went for anything in that first season in terms of intellectual and sensitive.  "Fan of oral sex (which is going to describe the vast majority of the sexually active population regardless of sexual orientation or identity), not a fan of blood (....again, most people come under the "I would rather leave it than take it" category anyway) ...and that's about it.  

 

He barely got a thing to do in the first season.  In the second season he did have a bit more onscreen and chiefly impressed me by not murdering Catelyn when she appeared -- which was a noteworthy enough thing to be worthy of praise in a land full of "Oh there you are....good....I was planning on skinning/burning/beheading/and having you raped anyway...not necessarily in that order, but maybe in that order" type of characters....and then he made a reasonable bargain with Cat without fainting dead away at having it suggested.   

 

He seems entirely decent and kind to Margaery and genuinely in love with Loras...and then he's dead....all within about five minutes of screentime. 

 

What they appeared to be going for was brevity, as far as I can tell.  

 

Renly got a LOT more character development via Brienne vs. on the actual show and she was in love with him, so I wasn't ever too sure how unclouded a view she had of him.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

Gods forbid. I can see what D&D ment to do with their very-modernish-twenty-first-century-intelectual-sensitive-gay-dude Renly but I don't think it quite worked.

A side effect of this that I never really thought about before is that I can totally see how book Renly and Loras could have gotten together. They're like two peas in a pod, whereas show Renly and Loras seem like a bit of an odd couple type pairing. As if the book versions first hooked up after getting to know each other through the tournament circuit where the show versions hooked up because they were the only young, noble gay guys at court.

[stillshimpy]

They're like two peas in a pod, whereas show Renly and Loras seem like a bit of an odd couple type pairing.

 

I had assumed in that first season that Loras had started the relationship, specifically to manipulate Renly into trying to overthrow Robert as part of a planned power-play or rebellion on the part of the Tyrells.  The series went out of its way to paint Loras as a guy willing to stoop to win.  He's depicted as cheating at the joust , by knowingly using a mare in heat as a way of winning -- which is still one of those "that's at least a little odd, right?" details from the books, because I came to understand eventually that Loras was just really an amazing warrior, but the show didn't tell me that until the second season.  In the first they depicted him as a cheat and a manipulator.  

 

Using Mares in season to win a joust and manipulating Renly via sex to stage a rebellion.  It wasn't until the second season that it became apparent that Loras and Renly actually loved one another and that Loras kicked major ass, just in general.  

 

Also, Renly being squeamish at the sight of blood  ....I never knew he was involved in the tournaments until he was introduced in the books and took being unseated with such unruffled aplomb.  Series Renly was afraid of blood and squeamish.  

 

Also, Series Loras vs. Book Loras?  In the series Loras in High Gardens heir, period.  No "Youngest son of Mace Tyrell" stuff.  

 

Aside from Jon being the one having the crypt dream, Stannis having just left Kingslanding and the ages, the biggest "What? Really?"  has been everything surrounding Renly thus far.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ambi76]

About my Renly complains:

 

"Sensitive" = afraid of blood, not a warrior vs. (books) slightly below average knight (and reveling in that) has no problem with tourneys or hunts.

 

The "intelectual" part is only season 2 with Renly citing about "beauty unseen ... blabla" to half naked Marg vs. book Renly

not caring about books at all.

 

My "modernish twenty-first-century-gay" accusation stems also from the season 2 joke scene were he is terrified of Marg's boobies vs. book Renly who seems to be not quite that gay (gay = is modern concept anyways) but that's better left to A Clash of Kings.

 

About how Renly and Loras got together:

 

Well, in the books Loras was Renly's ward/squire and the show at least pays lip service to this in its HBO's Viewers Guide.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76

[benteen]

Lol, it's fannish hyperbole, sorry. I don't really care much either way, I just think Renly wasn't some martyr with only good intentions at heart. He was an asshole and not thinking through usurpation plans is not the best politics. 

 

Despite his "manner of the people" persona, Renly was disdainful of them and those that didn't meet his standards.

 

He did usurp his brother's place although a combination him and Stannis as King and Hand (whichever one they would have agreed for) would have worked out perfectly.  Renly as the public face, Stannis as the guy who gets things done.

 

Right, the Renly/Loras position goes back a number of years to when Renly was his squire.  Though Loras is like 16 in the first book, isn't he?  Makes you wonder just how young he was when Renly took an interest in him.

[ambi76]

Right, the Renly/Loras position goes back a number of years to when Renly was his squire.  Though Loras is like 16 in the first book, isn't he?  Makes you wonder just how young he was when Renly took an interest in him.

 

Eh, thirteen seems fair game in Westeros (Tyrion, Dany etc.) regardless of sexual orientation, so I can't really hold the five year gap against Renly even if it disturbes modern sensibilities. GRRM seems to have back-peddled here a bit though (probably for that reason), since IIRC Renly was supposed to be way older at first draft, hence the rather ridiculous age gap between him and Stannis & Robert.

[stillshimpy]

"Sensitive" = afraid of blood, not a warrior vs. (books) slightly below average knight (and reveling in that) has no problem with tourneys or hunts.

 

Exactly, rather than having empathy and compassion as a hallmark of sensitivity, they went for the most direct and most painfully literal version of sensitive:  someone who reacts to stimulus and in this case, tried to make "squeamish" a stand-in for someone being "sensitive"  ...someone who is sensitive might also additionally be sensitive to or, faint at, the sight of blood...but that is not in and of itself sensitivity.  That's being squeamish. 

 

Understanding the feelings of another person is one way of being sensitive.  Nearly passing out at the sight of blood is just being sensitive to being upset yourself, you know?  It's not quite the same thing.  

 

I don't know what the showrunners were going for there, but if it was sensitive, they only hit squeamish and fluttery.   Kind of the same thing they did with how he reacted to seeing Marg, like he was repulsed rather than, "Yeah, not for me.  Thanks anyway."   

 

The whole "Oh my god, breasts! Flee the scene!  God knows what those things will do now that they are unleashed!"  was seemingly trying to shorthand the whole, "Panicked at the thought of having to have sex with a woman, because it's really not something he would like to do,even in the name of king and country..." but instead just made him seem very neurotic and prone to having an upset stomach.  

 

See again: confusing all things sensitive with being interchangeable with being squeamish.  One might be evidence of the other, but they are not, in fact, interchangeable or wholly indicative of the other.  

 

In other words, I get what you're saying, but I don't think that was necessarily what they were trying to communicate.   I think they a) wanted that shaving scene because it's HBO and some sex-scene mandate exists b) on the Marg front they were trying to communicate something about Margaery, not Renly.  That it would be quite the task for Renly, but she's so practical, so far from freaked out -- that she is the anti-Sansa and knows exactly what she's gotten herself into -- that she offers to get brother to help with the mental aspects of the deed.  

 

Basically that Marg was of the "Turkey Baster, whatever it takes, knock me up , my heart is not in peril and my feelings will not be hurt....just let's get busy with the heir making, because we have a checklist of things to get done to secure power and "baby makes three" is at the head of it. 

 

That they were treating it like guys at the fertility doctors.  "Just step into this cubicle.  Here are movies.  Here are magazines.  Just give the sample.  We don't care how you get there.  Think of England.  Think of Not! England.  Hell, don't think at all.  We just need the semen, 'kay?"  

 

But I do think the Show has done a really poor job of handling the depiction of gay characters.  In the books, they actually sort of haven't gotten around to that as of yet, so I can't comment.  I'm actually kind of glad that I'm not going to be dealing with a book version of Renly who is afraid of blood...which always felt like the series saying, "He's unmanly!  Get it??" type of bowling with cliches.  

Edited June 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

I'm not sure book Renly is even a below average knight, just one who didn't care much about winning at jousting. He was unhorsed by the Hound iirc, not some random lightweight. We don't really know how he was with a sword or other knightly skills, since he never actually got to fight in battle before meeting shadow Stan Jr. In the book, King Bobby isn't much of a jouster either, his event is the melee. I can see why jousting might have more crowd appeal to Renly, but he's mentioned as being built just like Bobby in his prime, in addition to which he must have given Loras lessons in literal swordplay back when Loras was his squire. So I feel like he could hold his own against an average knight, but probably wasn't the level of badass that Bobby prime actually was. I also think the Tyrells probably did play a key part in his decision to crown himself, but Loras being the schemer whispering in his ear is another big show change, since book Renly is already shown as a schemer with the Anne Boleyn-ish plot, and I imagine there was a power imbalance in his relationship with Loras. Even in the show, there's still an age gap between them.

[Dev F]

Also, Series Loras vs. Book Loras?  In the series Loras in High Gardens heir, period.  No "Youngest son of Mace Tyrell" stuff.  

 

I believe that was actually a late adjustment to the character. If I recall correctly, Loras's older brothers were listed in HBO's supplemental materials for the first couple seasons before being removed.

 

That always struck me as one of the show's more careless retcons. Everything about Loras's behavior in both the show and the books suggests that he's the spare, not the heir.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Dev F

[ambi76]

Don't know what the showrunners were going for there, but if it was sensitive, they only hit squeamish and fluttery.

 

Yeah that's why we're saying it didn't work. I'm ESL and German is my native tongue so maybe "sensitive" is wrong but it was drummed into me in English class that ...

 

G: Sensitiv = E: Sensual

G: Sensibel = E: Sensitive

 

... and I mean the latter.

 

And Loras being the heir of Highgarden on the show because budget and stuff is an extreme fucking problem for a Tyrell fan like me (you can tell it's a retcon because he is in Renly's kingsguard in season 2, which makes zero sense for an heir, except with extreme mental gymnastics about the specialness of Renly's kingsguard).

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

Gods I could rant for days about the show's depiction of Gay characters. It seems as though every time Loras is on screen or is even mentioned, there is some reference to his sexuality. It wasn't quite so bad in Season 1 and 2, but since S3 I've found the depiction of LGBT (Well just LGB) characters kind of...exploitative. Like I think they're trying to be progressive but it feels more like fulfilling a quota and constantly reminding us "look! we have gay characters. He's gay remember?!"

[ambi76]

Renly is already shown as a schemer with the Anne Boleyn-ish plot, and I imagine there was a power imbalance in his relationship with Loras. Even in the show, there's still an age gap between them.

 

I personally don't think there was much of that. While the show goes out of its way to make Loras the dominant partner and you seem to think Renly must have had the upper hand in the books I think the relationship and scheeming and stuff was pretty even between all parties here. Although book Loras does have a naive streak the likes of Sansa at times, so who can say. Maybe GRRM will at some point but I'm not holding my breath. And Loras being the initiator of the "Renly as King" scheme makes his story much more tragic, I like it.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

I am surprised that you found the Renly stuff to be the biggest change so far Shimpy. I guess in my mind I remember Season 1 as super duper faithful. I'd forgotten about all the subtle little changes. 

Edited June 21, 2015 by Protar

[ambi76]

But I do think the Show has done a really poor job of handling the depiction of gay characters.  In the books, they actually sort of haven't gotten around to that as of yet, so I can't comment.

 

Just as a warning, depending on your level of perceptivness that that could be quite a long wait.

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76

[Protar]

Just as a warning, depending on your level of perceptivness, that that could be quite a long wait.

 

Shhh!

[Lady S.]

I personally don't think there was much of that. While the show goes out of its way to make Loras the dominant partner and you seem to think Renly must have had the upper hand in the books I think the relationship and scheeming and stuff was pretty even between all parties here. Although book Loras does have a naive streak the likes of Sansa at times, so who can say. 

That romantic idealism is what I'm thinking of, even more than the age difference. That and the Jaime parallels, which I guess would include romantic idealism. Maybe he said "why don't you just take the throne for yourself?" on a whim, but he doesn't really show much aptitude for more drawn out strategy. I can see him saying his family would like Marg to be queen, but I think Renly developed the details of the scheme to get her in bed with Robert. Or at least I hope he did. I'm going to stop at that, since I'm trying not to jump ahead of shrimpy here.

[Delta1212]

I think part of the change is simply down to the fact that a lot of the "meat" of Renly's story in book one is stuff that is implied to be happening off screen, like with showing Ned Margaery's portrait. You can infer a lot from that but it's not very explicit about what's going on and easy to miss if you aren't already familiar with the general trajectory of the characters.

I think the thought process on the part of the writers was that they could leave Renly's stuff as being sort of hinted at and risk his "You know what has a nice ring to it? King Renly!" turn coming sort of out of left field for the audience, or they could just make it explicit so the groundwork is adequately laid for the storyline to come.

The problem in the latter case, of course, is that the first book isn't really about what Renly is doing at all. So if they make it explicit, that's suddenly a lot of screen time they are adding to a story that takes up very little "screen time" in the book, and they already have a ton of material to adapt as is. So they make the "Renly is in bed with the Tyrells and angling for some added power" plotline more explicit, but pare it down to basically that very simple essence so they can put it on screen and get it out of the way without eating into their time and and budget for season 1.

That still leaves some questions about exactly how they did it, in terms to the way they changed the characterization to accommodate it, but I can kind of see why they did it, from a broad perspective looking at the plotting of the show.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Delta1212

[ambi76]

Oh yeah, romantic idealism Ser Loras has tons of it. And if GRRM really wanted to troll us Renly/Loras fans he could make Loras find an old letter from Renly to Stannis in which he talks total trash about Loras: "Yo bro, how are the uggos, I mean ladies? Ya know that boy they sent me from Highgarden? He is a total dumbass. But he sucks a mean cock, so I'm going to keep him." :P 

 

/bad fanfiction

Edited June 21, 2015 by ambi76