LGBT Themes, Stories And Characters On TV

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, starri said:

Sesame Street introduces a family with two dads.

I'm not crying, you're crying.

That's great!

[Danny Franks]

13 hours ago, starri said:

Sesame Street introduces a family with two dads.

I'm not crying, you're crying.

Oh boy. I can already see this being covered on a certain 'news' channel:

"First Dr. Seuss, now Sesame Street?!" *Cue confused Tucker face*

[starri]

There's always backlash.

But for the moment, the high water mark of children's programming unambiguously talked about same-sex marriage, during Pride Month, in a story called "Family Day."  That's as unapologetic as it gets.

Ten years ago, that would have people marching on Sesame Street with torches and pitchforks.

It got better.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Oh boy. I can already see this being covered on a certain 'news' channel:

"First Dr. Seuss, now Sesame Street?!" *Cue confused Tucker face*

I think Sesame Street has proven for years that it doesn’t care what those people think.

[angora]

Blue's Clues (with an assist from drag queen Nina West!) has also been out here doing the good work, celebrating the entire community in this lovely Pride parade song:

 

[Mabinogia]

I am loving this! We need to normalize all consensual relationships because they are normal. I am excited by how many same sex families I'm starting to see in commercials too. No comment on it, just treating it like the normal way of life it is. Same with bi-racial families on commercials, but that's for another thread. I'm just happy that viewers are being exposed to more ways of life. 

Go Sesame Street!!! Go Blues Clues!!!!

[starri]

I truly believe that whatever progress we have made in society is owning in some small way to 50+ years of children getting to see a bunch of different kinds of people (and monsters) living together and being friends.

 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I think Sesame Street has proven for years that it doesn’t care what those people think.

No one should care what they think. Certainly no one with a zeal for educating children like Sesame Street has.

[Spartan Girl]

So Loki was just confirmed to be bisexual on the Disney+ show and it was very well done.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[JustHereForFood]

That's great news! I might watch it after all now 😃.

[Blergh]

17 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So Loki was just confirmed to be bisexual on the Disney+ show and it was very well done.

I haven't seen the show (and have no current way of watching it) but, considering that Loki was supposed to be the Norse god of mischief and troublemaking, is having him being bisexual truly helping the causes and plights of those who are bisexual?

[Spartan Girl]

12 minutes ago, Blergh said:

I haven't seen the show (and have no current way of watching it) but, considering that Loki was supposed to be the Norse god of mischief and troublemaking, is having him being bisexual truly helping the causes and plights of those who are bisexual?

He was bisexual in the comics, and most of the LGBTQ community are happy to finally have an openly out main character in the MCU.

[Blergh]

2 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

He was bisexual in the comics, and most of the LGBTQ community are happy to finally have an openly out main character in the MCU.

OK, I concede that my knowledge solely comes from the study of mythology not comics. Since you put it that way, I can understand why this could be helpful. 

[JustHereForFood]

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

He was bisexual in the comics, and most of the LGBTQ community are happy to finally have an openly out main character in the MCU.

As a bisexual myself, I fully agree. It is a fucking shame that we haven't had any LGBT+ characters in MCU until now, considering how long it has been going. There are many characters in the comics, some of which have already been used on screen, but without any confirmation of their sexuality, like Valkyrie, or Loki before now.

[angora]

23 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

He was bisexual in the comics, and most of the LGBTQ community are happy to finally have an openly out main character in the MCU.

Not to mention an MCU character as beloved as Loki. He's often been a villain/antagonist with forays into reluctant ally, but he's a compelling character played by a fantastic actor, and he has a veritable army of devoted fans. This is important.

I really liked that scene, a lovely moment in a great episode. I can see why some folks might argue that it's just lip service representation at this point, and I wouldn't begrudge them those feelings. After all, we haven't really seen Loki express attraction towards ANYONE throughout his tenure in the MCU. But in this instance, that doesn't really bother me. Given how often bi/pan characters, especially in genre shows, are depicted as constantly flirting with/hooking up with EVERYONE, it's kind of nice that Loki isn't painted as someone who treats the 9 realms as his personal sex buffet. Not that I don't love characters like Captain Jack Harkness or Oberyn Martell, but I also like variety and nuance, and I appreciate that Loki is a prideful but lonely person who has difficulty forming deep connections with romantic partners due to damage that has nothing to do with his sexuality (the whole "love is a dagger" thing.) Fingers crossed that this scene was just a strong start to that aspect of his character and not the only acknowledgement we'll get.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

I haven't seen the show (and have no current way of watching it) but, considering that Loki was supposed to be the Norse god of mischief and troublemaking, is having him being bisexual truly helping the causes and plights of those who are bisexual?

Loki's role in mythology wasn't just as a troublemaker.  He is a trickster god where, yes, one element of the archetype is playing tricks but it has a broader meaning.  Trickster gods are characterized by their cunning, intelligence and need to disrupt or mock authority and bend conventionality.  In Norse mythology, Loki specifically has also been depicted as gender fluid having taken the forms of a woman and a mare.

He is a god who is supposed to be the father of a wolf and snake and actually had been impregnated.  Since the MCU is using the actual Loki from Norse myth, making him conventionally heterosexual would have been more dishonest to who is actually supposed to be.

[Scarlett45]

On 6/24/2021 at 9:17 AM, JustHereForFood said:

As a bisexual myself, I fully agree. It is a fucking shame that we haven't had any LGBT+ characters in MCU until now, considering how long it has been going. There are many characters in the comics, some of which have already been used on screen, but without any confirmation of their sexuality, like Valkyrie, or Loki before now.

 Tessa Thompson as Valkyrie, drinking herself to death over her lost female lover was the closest we got and I agree it wasnt good enough.

 

On 6/24/2021 at 9:45 AM, angora said:

Given how often bi/pan characters, especially in genre shows, are depicted as constantly flirting with/hooking up with EVERYONE, it's kind of nice that Loki isn't painted as someone who treats the 9 realms as his personal sex buffet. Not that I don't love characters like Captain Jack Harkness or Oberyn Martell, but I also like variety and nuance, and I appreciate that Loki is a prideful but lonely person who has difficulty forming deep connections with romantic partners due to damage that has nothing to do with his sexuality (the whole "love is a dagger" thing.) Fingers crossed that this scene was just a strong start to that aspect of his character and not the only acknowledgement we'll get.

Yup. Tom Hiddleson (both as an actor in general and in this role), has a certain sex appeal even though he isnt "attractive" (at least to me). It's a swagger and an attitude. But Loki has way too many personal issues to be in a healthy relationship with anyone. For the record I always thought Tom was playing Loki as bisexual before this confirmation. 

(bolding mine)- this is funny.

[Hiyo]

Quote

is having him being bisexual truly helping the causes and plights of those who are bisexual?

Maybe, maybe not, but it could lead to some interesting plots and storylines. Or not. I mean, this is Loki, I wouldn't wish him on anyone for a relationship lol

As far as using the mythology or comics as background...I wouldn't put much emphasis on that. They take certain things and exclude others (like a previous incarnation of Loki being Hela's father, not her brother).

Edited July 1, 2021 by Hiyo

[Luckylyn]

Jessie Gender on YouTube discusses the controversy over Anthony Mackie’s comments regarding Sam/Bucky shipping.  I wasn’t sure if I should post this here or the shipping thread because there’s some commentary on shipping in general included.  I think there’s a valid point to be made that we need more platonic male friendships that don’t buy into toxic masculinity tropes.  There’s this idea that to men can’t be emotionally intimate with friends.  So I support showing same sex friends being close without romantic subtext.

But when show runners insert certain breadcrumbs (romantic subtext) in their media knowing how some groups will interpret it, they can’t act surprised when fans start thinking in that direction. In Falcon and The Winter Solider,  I do think the cliche falling on top of each other scene and the couples therapy eye gazing scenes were designed to signal to people who ship Sam/Bucky.  They want to have their cake and eat it to.  They want to draw in people who support same sex pairings while also catering to homophobic people at the same time.  Hint and imply but never make the romance explicit so they have deniability. 

She is right about how same sex pairings have been subtext instead of explicit for so long on tv and in movies that fans are just used to looking for the subtext.  Sometimes the subtext is an accident in that two actors just happen to have chemistry, but the writers aren’t intending romance.   Sometimes the subtext is there because the show runners want to a same sex romance but the network won’t allow it.  So all they can do is push boundaries with subtext, and those show runners I won’t criticize since their hands are tied by those in charge.   But many times it’s intentional to bait the audience with no real interest in having a same sex pairing be canon which is a game showrunners need to stop. Either go there with the same sex romance or don’t.  Stop teasing and then not following through.  It’s especially annoying when they tease and then treat fans like they are crazy for believing the things the show runners themselves implied (ex: Sherlock).

I appreciate her bringing up the intersectionality of race whether Mackie where a narrative about him is being pushed which perpetuates stereotypes.

Also the finding romance in the subtext isn’t just a same sex shipper thing.  I have definitely seen heterosexual pairings build upon subtext too.  

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

It’s especially annoying when they tease and then treat fans like they are crazy for believing the things the show runners themselves implied (ex: Sherlock).

This. I hate that shit.

[JustHereForFood]

On 7/2/2021 at 9:39 PM, Luckylyn said:

Jessie Gender on YouTube discusses the controversy over Anthony Mackie’s comments regarding Sam/Bucky shipping.  I wasn’t sure if I should post this here or the shipping thread because there’s some commentary on shipping in general included.  I think there’s a valid point to be made that we need more platonic male friendships that don’t buy into toxic masculinity tropes.  There’s this idea that to men can’t be emotionally intimate with friends.  So I support showing same sex friends being close without romantic subtext.

But when show runners insert certain breadcrumbs (romantic subtext) in their media knowing how some groups will interpret it, they can’t act surprised when fans start thinking in that direction. In Falcon and The Winter Solider,  I do think the cliche falling on top of each other scene and the couples therapy eye gazing scenes were designed to signal to people who ship Sam/Bucky.  They want to have their cake and eat it to.  They want to draw in people who support same sex pairings while also catering to homophobic people at the same time.  Hint and imply but never make the romance explicit so they have deniability. 

She is right about how same sex pairings have been subtext instead of explicit for so long on tv and in movies that fans are just used to looking for the subtext.  Sometimes the subtext is an accident in that two actors just happen to have chemistry, but the writers aren’t intending romance.   Sometimes the subtext is there because the show runners want to a same sex romance but the network won’t allow it.  So all they can do is push boundaries with subtext, and those show runners I won’t criticize since their hands are tied by those in charge.   But many times it’s intentional to bait the audience with no real interest in having a same sex pairing be canon which is a game showrunners need to stop. Either go there with the same sex romance or don’t.  Stop teasing and then not following through.  It’s especially annoying when they tease and then treat fans like they are crazy for believing the things the show runners themselves implied (ex: Sherlock).

I appreciate her bringing up the intersectionality of race whether Mackie where a narrative about him is being pushed which perpetuates stereotypes.

Also the finding romance in the subtext isn’t just a same sex shipper thing.  I have definitely seen heterosexual pairings build upon subtext too.  

Thanks for the video, it was quite informative. BTW, this topic was also recently discussed in the "Stan culture" thread.

I do agree with the points she made about why exactly Mackie's comments are problematic, but personally, it is Marvel who got on my shitlist here, not Mackie, because they are the ones who decided to queerbait their audience in the first place, which is IMO the problem. In general, I think that actors often get a raw deal with how they have to promote the stuff they have not written and, as has been pointed out in the video, often have to cover quite heavy topics. 

Personally, I would be glad if the whole queerbaiting trope could crawl under the sofa and die, in favor of some actual representation in all these major franchises. I totally get the importance of queercoding in the past and I am grateful for it, because it was at times the only representation available, but it is 21st century now and these are western productions, so it is time to change course.

[Spartan Girl]

Chucky creator Don Mancini on making the lead teen character LGBTQ

Wow, I never knew all this about Don Mancini. I have to give him respect for using his own experiences for trying to bring more representation to the horror genre. He's right: aside from Andy Barclay, there are very few Final Boys.

Although I'm going to take that one scene described regarding

Spoiler

Chucky being so accepting of Jake with a grain of salt, because, hello, this is CHUCKY. He excels at manipulating his child victims by telling them what they want to hear. But then again, following the movies, Tiffany is bisexual (or possibly pansexual), Glen/Glenda is gender fluid, and part of Chucky's soul is living in Nica's body as a trans-lesbian, so maybe at this point the homicidal maniac is too old not to get with the times.

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[JustHereForFood]

They had a good run, but the cancellation of both Legends of Tomorrow and Batwoman, two series with LGBT+ leads is sad, especially in the current atmosphere around LGBT+ rights.

[dargosmydaddy]

Has anyone else watched First Day on Hulu? It's an Australian show about a trans girl starting junior high (I think?). There's two seasons of four episodes each (and the episodes are only about 20 minutes). It was a really well done show, though I wish there were more episodes.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Has anyone else watched First Day on Hulu? It's an Australian show about a trans girl starting junior high (I think?). There's two seasons of four episodes each (and the episodes are only about 20 minutes). It was a really well done show, though I wish there were more episodes.

It’s on my list. 

[JustHereForFood]

I would like to recommend Heartstopper on Netflix. It's a very light, comfort TV series about two teenagers falling for each other and has several LGBT+ characters. 

Plus, Olivia Colman in supporting role.

[dargosmydaddy]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I would like to recommend Heartstopper on Netflix. It's a very light, comfort TV series about two teenagers falling for each other and has several LGBT+ characters. 

Plus, Olivia Colman in supporting role.

I've read the graphic novels, which are lovely. Looking forward to watching the show next time I have Netflix.

[possibilities]

Thanks for the Heartstopper recommendation. I wouldn't have watched it otherwise, but wound up liking it quite a lot.

What other shows am I missing?

[JustHereForFood]

16 hours ago, possibilities said:

Thanks for the Heartstopper recommendation. I wouldn't have watched it otherwise, but wound up liking it quite a lot.

What other shows am I missing?

Well, the third (and final) season of Love, Victor is out on Hulu and Disney+ now.

Not sure about other shows, as I'm behind a few seasons on almost everything. I keep hearing good stuff about Sex Education though, so I'm planning on starting that soon.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

I keep hearing good stuff about Sex Education though, so I'm planning on starting that soon.

The first season is excellent.  It goes downhill in seasons two and three, but good enough to keep watching.  There is a highly problematic relationship between two of the guys, though, that in the third (most-recent) season started to be written better as one character is actually doing the work on understanding and improving himself.

[possibilities]

I thought S3 of Love, Victor was the best one. I've also been watching Sex Education. I like when shows explore issues within the community, rather than just focusing on misery porn, or what I call the "Well of Loneliness syndrome" of "me vs the straights".

What made Heartstopper work for me despite my being profoundly burned out on coming out stories, is that it was set up to highlight OUR issues, with each other, and not just "us vs them". Also, the diversity of the cast-- it wasn't entirely male focused or white. If we're going to have 95% of stories be about coming out, at least it's getting more complex and 3 dimensional, and less about isolation.

I also liked "First Day"... I can't remember if I got that recommendation from here or somewhere else. It's about

 

a trans girl who changes schools to "pass" and then is outed

. 

Are their any decent shows about adults? 

Edited July 11, 2022 by possibilities

[Hiyo]

Any shows where bears are represented? 

[angora]

Anybody here gotten on the Our Flag Means Death train? Awesome pirate comedy with multiple queer relationships.

Spoiler

The developing romance between the main characters, Stede and Blackbeard, is WILD. It has all the meat and complexity of a popular noncanon ship, but with actual declarations of feelings and physical affection, no plausible deniability for viewers who "don't want to see it." What's more, the show really takes its time to show WHAT they love about each other beyond just physical attractiveness. They're tender, hilarious, and romantic.

Also, you have Taika Waititi's Blackbeard costumed as a pirate leather daddy with a resplendent, curly silver beard, so there's that.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

Are their any decent shows about adults? 

I was going to recommend Our Flag Means Death on HBO Max too.  I also recommend The Other Two.  It's more about a family where one character is gay but it's written by former SNL co-headwriters, one of whom is a gay man.  And there are a lot of funny stories surrounding him. 

Have you seen Looking?  It's a few years old but I loved both seasons and the wrap up movie.

[giovannif7]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Any shows where bears are represented? 

If a bear-focused comedy/mystery web series described by the creators as a cross between The Golden Girls and Murder She Wrote interests you, check out Where The Bears Are. It ran for 7 seasons from 2012-2018, with each season focusing on a different murder investigation. Production values and acting abilities vary, but if you're interested in a sometimes-racy show about bears it's a fun, quick watch/binge. In addition to the relatively-unknown main cast, various seasons feature guest appearances from the likes of Tuc Watkins, Margaret Cho, Chaz Bono, Brooke Dillman, Drew Droege and Jennifer Elise Cox. DVDs for all seasons have been released, or you can find them online. The age-restricted Where The Bears Are Season 1 Trailer can be found on YouTube.

[Hiyo]

Oh I know about that series, I was hoping for another series/movie besides that. Other than that show, there is Spanish movie called Cachorro (Bear Cub) which was good and I would recommend, but other than that, decent pickings are rather slim.

[possibilities]

I guess there are some sort of adults on Good Trouble. 20-somethings, mostly.

There's one poly bi woman right now, and two lesbians who are not lovers with each other (they're exes and still friends-- soooo on brand!), and there was a non-binary person but they haven't been around lately.

But most of the stories are not about those characters. I wouldn't say they're marginalized. But they get a bit diluted in focus in the very large ensemble.

It's the sequel to The Fosters and once in a while Stef and Lena show up, maybe once a season or so.

Oh yeah, there's also a bisexual male but he's currently in a relationship with a woman and they're having a baby and we haven't seen a male love interest in a long time. He's the most objectified character on the show, though... by which I mean he's often shirtless and oiled up and lit to glisten. Does nothing for me because I'm not into males (and Hiyo will be disappointed to know he's not a Bear), but it's so blatant that it almost makes me laugh.

It's a weird show for me to watch because culturally it is the only thing on TV that feels like where I come from, but I don't identify with any of the characters even a tiny bit. I recognize the milieu, and the issues, and the types. It's extremely familiar. But my particular niche is not represented. I'm not complaining, just noting how weird it is to see something so extremely familiar despite that.

[giovannif7]

Just finished bingeing Smiley on Netflix - an 8 episode Spanish language dramedy series based on a stage play about the rocky romantic road so many of us in the gay/lesbian/bisexual community must navigate in the search for love and happiness. The outcome for the main couple may be predictable, but their journey is well worth watching, as there are plenty of relationship twists, turns and surprises along the way for them and their family and friends.

The episodes are available dubbed into English, or you can choose to watch with English subtitles over the original European Spanish audio. I enjoyed the various storylines and actors, and grew to care about most of the characters, flaws and all - highly recommended! There's a Spanish language trailer available on YouTube, and a dubbed English version on the Netflix website at the link below:

https://www.netflix.com/title/81445999

[Shannon L.]

My God, did The Last of Us have one of the most beautiful, moving and well acted, story about a gay couple that I've seen to date. It aired last night and was done in a 1hr. 20min. time frame.  A post-apocalyptic show about zombies.   If there's any fairness in Hollywood, the actors and writers, even the directors, will be nominated for different awards (Globes, Emmy's, SAG, WGA, DGA......) at the end of this year and next year.

[possibilities]

Can a person watch that episode without watching the previous? Or does the show really need to be watched in order?

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

Can a person watch that episode without watching the previous? Or does the show really need to be watched in order?

I don't watch the show but from what I've been reading, it sounds like the story everyone is praising involves two characters/actors who haven't been in previous episodes and it'd feel satisfying as a mini-movie even if you didn't watch another episode.  I don't know if it's a one-off or if they'll be in more episodes but I suspect reading a summary about the show would be enough.

I'm tempted to watch the ep as well even though zombie shows aren't my thing.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Irlandesa

[Shannon L.]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Can a person watch that episode without watching the previous? Or does the show really need to be watched in order?

I agree with @Irlandesa. It's not necessary,  but you might want to read a synopsis of the show before you watch it.

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm tempted to watch the ep as well even though zombie shows aren't my thing.

I had no desire to watch Last of Us because apocalyptic pandemic is not something I find entertaining, particularly now lol, but I too am considering watching this episode. 

[Domestic Assassin]

The internet has convinced me that I need to watch this episode. I haven't been spoiled (and don't want to be spoiled). Since it's only the 3rd episode, last night I decided to start with the first episode and I really hated it. Zombies just aren't my thing. Now I can't decide if I should just skip the 2nd episode, or give up altogether. Is this a case where this episode is vastly different from the rest of the series?

Edited January 31, 2023 by Domestic Assassin

[possibilities]

I watched Ep1, also felt it wasn't for me, tried a few mins of Ep2, and then skipped to Ep3. 

Ep 3 does have a different flavor than the others. It's still post-apocalypse, but it's a very different type of storytelling.

[Shannon L.]

1 hour ago, Domestic Assassin said:

The internet has convinced me that I need to watch this episode. I haven't been spoiled (and don't want to be spoiled). Since it's only the 3rd episode, last night I decided to start with the first episode and I really hated it. Zombies just aren't my thing. Now I can't decide if I should just skip the 2nd episode, or give up altogether. Is this a case where this episode is vastly different from the rest of the series?

With the exception of the first 15 minutes, give or take, it's very different than the other two episodes. 

[Domestic Assassin]

7 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

With the exception of the first 15 minutes, give or take, it's very different than the other two episodes. 

That's good to know. Thank you! I'll give it a shot.

[Kel Varnsen]

So my wife got me WKRP the complete series on DVD for my Valentine's Day. In the third episode of the series Les, the station's news reporter threatens to jump off the building ledge when he finds out a local athlete wants him banned from the locker room because there is a rumour that Les is gay. And considering that this episode was from 1978 I was surprised how well it handled this. I mean there were some laughs just at the thought of someone being gay, but there were a lot of characters saying they didn't care if Les was gay or not. And even to resolve the rumor part of the story the main characters say they will sort it out no matterr if you are gay or not (instead of just going full denial that gay people exist). I mean it wouldn't work as a plot today handled the same way but for 1978 it was pretty good. Especially considering this is the same time that Three's Company was on and John Ritter pretending to be gay was played entirely for laughs. 

Unfortunately the b-plot doesn't hold up as well. Johnny tells Herb that Jennifer (played by Loni Anderson) "used to be a guy" to get him to stop hitting on her. And here just the thought of someone being transgender, and another characters freak out about it, is played for laughs.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[giovannif7]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

(snip)

Unfortunately the b-plot doesn't hold up as well. Johnny tells Herb that Jennifer (played by Loni Anderson) "used to be a guy" to get him to stop hitting on her. And here just the thought of someone being transgender, and another characters freak out about it, is played for laughs.

Yeah, Herb's track record in dealing with transgender issues is terrible - I do give the writers credit, though, for having the station's resident jackass be the main one with those issues. I don't know how far you've gotten into the series, but there's another episode where Herb's transgender issues are confronted in an even-more-personal storyline (in the Season 3 Vicki Von Vicki designer jeans episode). It's been years since I've seen those episodes, but I don't recall other regular characters reacting anywhere near as negatively as Herb in either storyline.

[Kel Varnsen]

21 minutes ago, giovannif7 said:

Yeah, Herb's track record in dealing with transgender issues is terrible - I do give the writers credit, though, for having the station's resident jackass be the main one with those issues. I don't know how far you've gotten into the series, but there's another episode where Herb's transgender issues are confronted in an even-more-personal storyline (in the Season 3 Vicki Von Vicki designer jeans episode). It's been years since I've seen those episodes, but I don't recall other regular characters reacting anywhere near as negatively as Herb in either storyline.

So far I am only 4 episodes in. The last time I watched the show was probably around 2002 when I realized that one of the cable channels I had played it in the afternoon and if I made it home from work early enough I could watch it. Before that I remember watching it on syndication at night in the mid 80's when I was a kid and they would play it at night. So basically other than the characters and a few episode plots I don't remember a lot. What did surprise me about this episode was when Herb reacted to the rumour about Les, others called him out and told him he was wrong. The stuff with Johnny telling him that Jennifer was transgender was stupid but I could easily see that same dumb plot playing out on a TV show made 20-30 years later with zero change.