S01.E16: To Ransom A Man's Soul

[katville]

I felt like I needed to hug a kitten.

And then after I watched Season 2 episode 1 today, I felt like I needed to hug a basket of kittens.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Just watched this last night. Definitely need some brain bleach. ANd to think I was muttering "why am I watching this?" last ep when they nailed his hand to the table.  To me this show really smacks of fanfic... both the highs and the lows. I may continue watching season 2 but not sure since I have to get it on DVD from Netflix. I am notoriously slow with my DVDs...

[LoveLeigh]

On 5/30/2015 at 8:26 PM, DakotaLavender said:

There was a show on HBO almost 20 years ago called "Oz." It took place in a men's prison and it was very graphic and there was a lot of rape and torture and some pretty outrageous stuff that happened.

 

However, somehow Jamie's rape was excruciatingly much more hard to watch. I could not watch Jamie's whipping scenes and had to fast forward through it. But there was that "spanking" scene with Jamie and Claire and Claire was whipped too after her witch trial. 

 

I think so much more could be done with the concept of the time travel. And it seems to me that no matter how much Claire loves Jamie, this would be a world she would try to leave very quiickly. it is just so dangerous and revolting. 

 

And let's not forget season 2 episode 6,

Spoiler

where men received 6 lashes and Jamie was lashed again. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Athena
added spoiler tag

[John Potts]

OK, I've thought a bit about this before posting, so here are some slightly considered thoughts:

I'm OK with gore and I don't necessarily think portrayals of torture and rape should never be shown, but this did seem (IMO) to positively revel in it. And the shot where Black Jack is pinned beneath a door while a herd of cows runs over it felt like it was straight out of a Looney Tunes cartoon, which was tonally jarring (to say the least).

There were a couple of aspects I did like. I was glad Jamie's recovery was difficult - torture isn't something you 're going to just shrug off (not that I have any experience in that regard, fortunately). We had a priest who was sympathetic and understanding, which makes a nice change from the last priest we met. Loved Angus(?) going "Would you like to take tea or could we GTFO?" (paraphrasing somewhat). And - wonders may never cease - Claire actually thanked everyone who helped in Jamie's jailbreak, so I guess that's character growth?

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:31 PM, HumblePi said:

A bunch of shaggy long-haired cattle pushing a door on top of Black Jack and killing him just wouldn't satisfy the thirst for his blood that the viewers have now. We want to see Black Jack Randall 'blood eagle' executed like in the Vikings as Jamie and Claire watch

That may be true for the viewers, but it makes no sense for the characters in the show. THEY don't know they're on TV, all they can see is their bete noir lying helpless while they are breaking into the prison. Self preservation would suggest it is a terrible idea to leave an officer who could potentially get them executed alive. Dead men tell no tales, after all.

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:08 AM, Proclone said:

It's all capture and rescue, lather, rinse, repeat.  I also agree with the HitFix reviewer's opinion that the sexual violence directed at the male lead is portrayed --by the show -- as more painful, more debilitating, more pitiable, more significant than anything undergone by all of the women characters.

Possibly because from what's been shown onscreen, women will always be saved at the last moment. Each of the (many) times Claire has been threatened with rape, she's been saved at the last moment, usually by Jamie and once by Claire's her actions (Jenny also saved herself). While I certainly don't want to see rapes shown onscreen, that applies to both men AND women.

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 5:46 PM, iMonrey said:

At the very least, I feel the story of Outlander should have ended once Claire made the choice to stay with Jamie. Everything from that point forward is a different story. It's about Jamie and Jack Randall.

I tend to agree. What's interesting (to me) is how a modern(ish) woman fits into 18th Century Scotland and how much she can (or should) try to change things. She may not know whether she can in fact change things (from what we've seen so far, it seems time travel is a fixed loop, given it looked like her laboratory was the same in 1744 as 1945) but I don't mind her trying. I'm OK with her not considering the dangers, but The Sound of Thunder hasn't been written (nor has Chaos Theory been propagated) so she may not have considered that she might be making things worse.

[Camera One]

So that's it for the first season, eh?  This show was different than what I thought it was going to be.  I'm wary about the repetitiveness of capture, rescue, rinse and repeat with torture and rape.  However, I do like the two main protagonists and the acting is very good, so I will seek out the Season 2 DVDs.  

This episode wasn't as bad as the previous one.  I thought it was good that they dealt with Jaime's emotional trauma from being raped since it's rare to see a man dealing with this on television.  I think now he has a different perspective than he did before, when he was so contemptuous towards Jenny for what ultimately happened to him.  

I am glad Claire eventually got through to him and France will be a nice change of place.  This show tends to be more interesting when the characters go somewhere new.  I can't say I want to see them try to change history, though.  But it is a good vehicle for following Bonnie Prince Charlie as he eventually begins his campaign and Claire and Jaime can presumably tag along to come back to Scotland.  The time travelling fan in me would like it if Claire and Jaime walked through a time tunnel in France, and we get to see them exploring France in 1945 for an episode or two.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Nidratime]

Thank you for all your comments, Camera One. I'm a regular viewer and I've read the first four books, so I will say to you -- keep going. I wish I could say more, but book talk and spoilers are not allowed here. But, keep in mind, when Claire traveled in the very first episode, it wasn't a lark, was it?

[kwnyc]

Quote

As for Claire forgiving Jamie, I think Claire would have said anything to reach Jamie at this point, to help him move past his guilt, humiliation and despair, even for a moment.

I agree; and Jamie cannot forgive himself for being broken by Randall; it's not something he feels he can recover from, and the only thing he can do is kill himself. That Claire can forgive him for having been tortured and raped is what leads Jamie into beginning to understand what happened to him and to live with it. Though, of course, it's a character-changing moment for the rest of his life (I am sure...as I am just getting into the books and series.) I note she does not object to him having the brand cut out of his skin; she realizes it's necessary for him.

[foxfreakinmulder]

Wow. Did I make a mistake of watching this episode before bed. I wanted to see Jamie's escape from prison so I watched the last 2 episodes back to back. This episode was so disturbing I couldn't sleep and when I did fall asleep every time I woke up it was there in my mind, I couldn't stop thinking about it.  I woke up at 4am and could not get back to sleep so at 6am I thought I would go for a walk to clear my head but it was too windy so I've just been sitting in front of my computer screen trying to find words. I don't like watching sex scenes but a rape scene is just too much! The end of the episode had some light against all the darkness but not enough. Jamie will never be pre-prison Jamie again. Please tell me Jack does not have cattle plot armor, if you're trampled by a herd of cattle you should be dead. I was also yelling at the rescuers to run him through. Jack even told Claire she would regret not running him through when they knocked him out the last time. I have to cleanse myself from the actors face for awhile, I'm not going to be able to watch another episode of Outlander for a few days or another show I watch on HULU that has the same actor called The Terror. I don't want to see Frank anymore either,  I wished they would've used a different actor play Black Jack so I don't hate on Frank so much. I didn't really get to know him to like him but now I won't be able to stand looking at him. I was planning on reading the books but now I don't think I want to. Romance, time travel, period pieces I love. Rape and torture not so much. I need some good juju so I'm off to youtube to find videos of puppies, kittens and bunnies. :-)

[AZChristian]

2 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I have to cleanse myself from the actors face for awhile, I'm not going to be able to watch another episode of Outlander for a few days or another show I watch on HULU that has the same actor called The Terror. I don't want to see Frank anymore either,  I wished they would've used a different actor play Black Jack so I don't hate on Frank so much. I didn't really get to know him to like him but now I won't be able to stand looking at him. I was planning on reading the books but now I don't think I want to. Romance, time travel, period pieces I love. Rape and torture not so much. I need some good juju so I'm off to youtube to find videos of puppies, kittens and bunnies. 🙂

Do you watch "The Crown"?

Spoiler

Black Jack/Frank will be playing Prince Philip for the next two seasons.  

[foxfreakinmulder]

42 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Do you watch "The Crown"?

Yes, I love that show, excellent writing and acting. I read somewhere they were going to change the actors. That's a shame because they were so good. I don't know when the new season starts but hopefully not too soon.

[AZChristian]

I think they plan to do six seasons each season covering approximately 10 years in the life of the Queen.  They have planned to change out the actors after they've done two seasons, so they can use older actors.

[gingerella]

Well, again, I figured BJR was headed towards raping Jamie so I f/f’d through it but I saw enough as I was forwarding to make me ill. This show has taken a decisively disturbing turn and after enduring 8 long years of GoT torture, violent rapes, and gruesome murders, I don’t know if this series is for me if this sort of thing continues to happen every season. I am so disturbed that I literally never want to see the actor who plays Frank/BJR ever again, which sucks because he’s on The Crown where I left off and I honestly cannot bear to look at him again. If I met him in real life I could not have a relationship on any level with him because I would be thinking what a disputable character he seemed to relish playing. THAT is how disturbed I am right now, and yeah I now that doesn’t make sense but that’s how I feel right now.

I need for Randall to be fucking dead. I need for him to have died after that, and to die by such a freak accident death. Please let him be dead now.

Jamie...I can understand why he wanted to die, but I’m also thinking, how can he not know that this was not his fault, that he was a victim of torture. Then I think of who Jamie is thus far, and really he is a simple soul who feels things deeply, more deeply than anyone and I guess it makes sense? Ah Fuck, none of this makes sense, who am I kidding. I had no eloquent thoughts on this show right now. I feel violated, duped, horrified, and very disappointed. It would be interesting to see how Claire, and Jamie as her husband, might have changed social norms in Highlander Scotland. But the constant cycle of loving couple ripped apart, wife almost raped, husband beaten almost to death, rinse and repeat, I just can’t. Is this the entire premise of this series? I thought it was a great tale of a love story based on a time travel premise, but if it’s just a never ending cycle of violence and gore, I can’t continue.

On a positive note, at least we know that Frank couldnt have children so maybe the Randall line will end with him and I would be fine with that.

Edited March 22, 2021 by gingerella

[Beeyago]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

 I literally never want to see the actor who plays Frank/BJR ever again, which sucks because he’s on The Crown where I left off and I honestly cannot bear to look at him again. If I met him in real life I could not have a relationship on any level with him because I would be thinking what a disputable character he seemed to relish playing. THAT is how disturbed I am right now, and yeah I now that doesn’t make sense but that’s how I feel right now.

Ha!  Same!!  I think I read a comment on this thread awhile back that said if they saw Tobias in person now, they’d cross the street so they wouldn’t have to walk past him. Lol

[SassAndSnacks]

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

Then I think of who Jamie is thus far, and really he is a simple soul who feels things deeply, more deeply than anyone and I guess it makes sense? Ah Fuck, none of this makes sense, who am I kidding.

It doesn't make sense, but when does this sort of thing ever make sense?  (I say that not in a condescending or angry tone.  It is definitely a resigned, sad tone.)  After I first watched this episode, and through my time as an enthusiastic fan and reader of this series, I had to assess why I like the whole story so much because it is freaking violent and sad and dirty and weird and inappropriate and a lot of not great things.  And I felt really guilty for awhile that I like it so much, because surely there must be something wrong with me since I do like is so much.  

It's really about a whole journey.  And life in general is a whole journey with some truly amazing, beautiful moments and then some other earth-shattering, soul-splintering moments.  How do we as people continue to pick ourselves up and keep going?  It is a concept and an action that has always fascinated me, the way that people are so resilient.  

I appreciate, deeply, how this show (and thereby this story) doesn't shy away from the absolute shittiness that can happen to a truly good person like Jamie.  Initially with BJR, Jamie was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and look at how that moment completely changed the course of his life.  And then Claire pops out of some rocks and look at how that moment further changes the course.  Every day we make such minor decisions that can unwittingly change the course of the rest of our lives.  It's heavy but true.  But how will Jamie rise above all of this, where does he go now? 

I also appreciate how the show tells the story, and I think it does it in a way that is very different from GoT.  I think it does handle these situations with a lot of care and sensitivity. Personally, this episode taught me a lot on a subject I probably would have never explored nor ever cared to explore.  Strangely, I feel like a better person for it.  

I also comfort myself with my fandom by recognizing that I love the beautiful relationships laid out in the story.  Jamie has such wonderful support from Claire, Murtagh, and Ian.  He has a sister that would do absolutely anything for him.  People are drawn to him.  I love how Claire is the focus of the story, but we get to watch the evolution of Jamie happening parallel to her.  And because I'm a Claire fangirl, I like to think that she has played a huge part in the evolution and helped to make the man that is Jamie Fraser.

I didn't mean to get all soap-boxy.  Outlander makes me introspective.  

[Beeyago]

54 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

And because I'm a Claire fangirl, I like to think that she has played a huge part in the evolution and helped to make the man that is Jamie Fraser.

You’re a Claire fangirl?? And here I thought we were frustrated together by her. Lol. While she definitely has her strengths, I would never say I’m a fangirl of hers. She drives me crazy too much. Too many times up to this point she put others in peril because she thought she knew the 18th century better than Jamie.🙄

[SassAndSnacks]

8 minutes ago, Beeyago said:

You’re a Claire fangirl??

Ha!  This made me laugh SO hard.  I AM!!!  I know, I know.  She IS annoying and impulsive and occasionally bitchy and sometimes self-centered and a know-it-all and she speaks without thinking.  I, too, am all of these things, and I recognize her and empathize with her.  She's also incredibly caring and intelligent and funny.  She's my girl.  Well, her and Michelle Kwan...but that's a totally different forum.

I think the show makes her a little too "in your face."  I like to think that she wouldn't be quite as obnoxious.  

Can we still be Outlander Fandom friends?

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

It doesn't make sense, but when does this sort of thing ever make sense?  (I say that not in a condescending or angry tone.  It is definitely a resigned, sad tone.)  After I first watched this episode, and through my time as an enthusiastic fan and reader of this series, I had to assess why I like the whole story so much because it is freaking violent and sad and dirty and weird and inappropriate and a lot of not great things.  And I felt really guilty for awhile that I like it so much, because surely there must be something wrong with me since I do like is so much.  

It's really about a whole journey.  And life in general is a whole journey with some truly amazing, beautiful moments and then some other earth-shattering, soul-splintering moments.  How do we as people continue to pick ourselves up and keep going?  It is a concept and an action that has always fascinated me, the way that people are so resilient.  

I appreciate, deeply, how this show (and thereby this story) doesn't shy away from the absolute shittiness that can happen to a truly good person like Jamie.  Initially with BJR, Jamie was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and look at how that moment completely changed the course of his life.  And then Claire pops out of some rocks and look at how that moment further changes the course.  Every day we make such minor decisions that can unwittingly change the course of the rest of our lives.  It's heavy but true.  But how will Jamie rise above all of this, where does he go now? 

I also appreciate how the show tells the story, and I think it does it in a way that is very different from GoT.  I think it does handle these situations with a lot of care and sensitivity. Personally, this episode taught me a lot on a subject I probably would have never explored nor ever cared to explore.  Strangely, I feel like a better person for it.  

I also comfort myself with my fandom by recognizing that I love the beautiful relationships laid out in the story.  Jamie has such wonderful support from Claire, Murtagh, and Ian.  He has a sister that would do absolutely anything for him.  People are drawn to him.  I love how Claire is the focus of the story, but we get to watch the evolution of Jamie happening parallel to her.  And because I'm a Claire fangirl, I like to think that she has played a huge part in the evolution and helped to make the man that is Jamie Fraser.

I didn't mean to get all soap-boxy.  Outlander makes me introspective.  

I love how you explained all that, because I sometimes get a weird looks from people about how much I love a show with this much violence, but I am drawn to the way they love & triumph over the hardships.  115&116 are hard to watch & I wish Jamie didn’t have to go through that but it makes him who he is. 

 

And absolutely Claire helped shape Jamie into the man & husband he becomes! 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Cdh20
Adding a thought

[Beeyago]

26 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Can we still be Outlander Fandom friends?

Haha! Yes of course!! (although I wasn't sure if you were disparaging my Uhtred on the other post. Them could be fightin' words😂) 

I must admit I almost edited my post about Claire to add:  ...but without her creating drama, it wouldn't be much of a show. Lol

Edited March 22, 2021 by Beeyago

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

This show has taken a decisively disturbing turn and after enduring 8 long years of GoT torture, violent rapes, and gruesome murders,

 

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I also appreciate how the show tells the story, and I think it does it in a way that is very different from GoT.  I think it does handle these situations with a lot of care and sensitivity. 

It's interesting since I've always wanted to watch GoT, but I am really apprehensive about all the violence and gore that I've heard about it.  I also tried watching a bit of the first episode, and it just didn't pull me in.  

Yet I continue to watch this show and I do think it's because of the style of storytelling.  For the most part, there are enough quiet moments that follow that I like watching.  Plus it helps at least for me to rationalize it that some of this brutality did occur historically, and I love historical fiction.

Though it still doesn't stop me from thinking "Why the hell am I watching this?"   I did stop watching this show for two full years (after this very episode) before continuing last month, which is not a good idea because I forgot a lot of the characters and events from this season.  I actually liked it more upon rewatch, maybe because I can anticipate the horrifying bits?

I think Tobias Menzies is an awesome actor.  His facial expressions and demeanor have enabled me to differentiate Frank as a separate character.  I didn't think of BJR at all on "The Crown".

I really like Claire too.  I find in all shows I get involved in, I actually do like all the protagonists.  It would really decrease my enjoyment to watch a show where I absolutely hated one of the main characters (the "heroes").

Edited March 22, 2021 by Camera One

[Beeyago]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

Well, again, I figured BJR was headed towards raping Jamie so I f/f’d through it but I saw enough as I was forwarding to make me ill. This show has taken a decisively disturbing turn and after enduring 8 long years of GoT torture, violent rapes, and gruesome murders, I don’t know if this series is for me if this sort of thing continues to happen every season. I am so disturbed that I literally never want to see the actor who plays Frank/BJR ever again, which sucks because he’s on The Crown where I left off and I honestly cannot bear to look at him again. If I met him in real life I could not have a relationship on any level with him because I would be thinking what a disputable character he seemed to relish playing. THAT is how disturbed I am right now, and yeah I now that doesn’t make sense but that’s how I feel right now.

I need for Randall to be fucking dead. I need for him to have died after that, and to die by such a freak accident death. Please let him be dead now.

Jamie...I can understand why he wanted to die, but I’m also thinking, how can he not know that this was not his fault, that he was a victim of torture. Then I think of who Jamie is thus far, and really he is a simple soul who feels things deeply, more deeply than anyone and I guess it makes sense? Ah Fuck, none of this makes sense, who am I kidding. I had no eloquent thoughts on this show right now. I feel violated, duped, horrified, and very disappointed. It would be interesting to see how Claire, and Jamie as her husband, might have changed social norms in Highlander Scotland. But the constant cycle of loving couple ripped apart, wife almost raped, husband beaten almost to death, rinse and repeat, I just can’t. Is this the entire premise of this series? I thought it was a great tale of a love story based on a time travel premise, but if it’s just a never ending cycle of violence and gore, I can’t continue.

On a positive note, at least we know that Frank couldnt have children so maybe the Randall line will end with him and I would be fine with that.

On to season 2!!

[Cdh20]

20 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

It's interesting since I've always wanted to watch GoT, but I am really apprehensive about all the violence and gore that I've heard about it.  I also tried watching a bit of the first episode, and it just didn't pull me in.  

Yet I continue to watch this show and I do think it's because of the style of storytelling.  For the most part, there are enough quiet moments that follow that I like watching.  Plus it helps at least for me to rationalize it that some of this brutality did occur historically, and I love historical fiction.

Though it still doesn't stop me from thinking "Why the hell am I watching this?"   I did stop watching this show for two full years (after this very episode) before continuing last month, which is not a good idea because I forgot a lot of the characters and events from this season.  I actually liked it more upon rewatch, maybe because I can anticipate the horrifying bits?

I think Tobias Menzies is an awesome actor.  His facial expressions and demeanor have enabled me to differentiate Frank as a separate character.  I didn't think of BJR at all on "The Crown".

I really like Claire too.  I find in all shows I get involved in, I actually do like all the protagonists.  It would really decrease my enjoyment to watch a show where I absolutely hated one of the main characters (the "heroes").

I haven’t watched GOT either ( but intent to one day, our list is long & my son owns those dvds).

I do need some one to root for! In some of the shows, everyone is so flawed that I have trouble finding that. I find Jamie & Claire to be extraordinary characters, & even all the secondary characters are also worth rooting for. It does have a great deal of sadness, & so I think I enjoyed some of it more on rewatch as well, but it’s not that often that a show is worth a rewatch! 

[SassAndSnacks]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I continue to watch this show and I do think it's because of the style of storytelling.  For the most part, there are enough quiet moments that follow that I like watching.  Plus it helps at least for me to rationalize it that some of this brutality did occur historically, and I love historical fiction.

The "quiet moments" are popular topics among the Book Readers, so I think you've touched on an important observation.  The quiet moments in this show are incredibly powerful, much more so than the violence, fighting, conflict moments.  The simple gestures, looks, and connections make this show, as far as I'm concerned.  They add a layer of comfort, sensitivity, and emotion that few shows are able to capture.  

31 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I really like Claire too.

Hooray!!!!

14 minutes ago, Beeyago said:

On to season 2!!

Sea-son 2!! Sea-son 2!! Sea-son 2!!

[Cdh20]

5 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

The "quiet moments" are popular topics among the Book Readers, so I think you've touched on an important observation.  The quiet moments in this show are incredibly powerful, much more so than the violence, fighting, conflict moments.  The simple gestures, looks, and connections make this show, as far as I'm concerned.  They add a layer of comfort, sensitivity, and emotion that few shows are able to capture.

 

 

You said it better than me! 

[Beeyago]

10 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

The "quiet moments" are popular topics among the Book Readers, so I think you've touched on an important observation.  The quiet moments in this show are incredibly powerful, much more so than the violence, fighting, conflict moments.  The simple gestures, looks, and connections make this show, as far as I'm concerned.  They add a layer of comfort, sensitivity, and emotion that few shows are able to capture.  

Hooray!!!!

Sea-son 2!! Sea-son 2!! Sea-son 2!!

 

[Cdh20]

One thing I’d like to comment on is the phenomenal acting in 115 & 116 by Sam, Cait, & Tobias. I think one of the reasons it’s so hard to watch is that it feels too real. I think we can often separate an actor from their character when something happens to them, but this is one show where these actors embody their characters! 
 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Cdh20

[Cdh20]

19 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

  The simple gestures, looks, and connections make this show, as far as I'm concerned.  

 

An important point I missed saying is that you have to actually watch the show & see everyone’s faces. My one friend likes to just have it on while she runs around doing stuff, I can’t imagine you get anything out of it that way! 

[SassAndSnacks]

Also, I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back.  This thread is marked as "hot" and is trending on Primetimer right now....7 years after the episode first aired.  If that's not an accomplishment...

Kudos to @gingerella for keeping things alive for us!

[Beeyago]

5 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Also, I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back.  This thread is marked as "hot" and is trending on Primetimer right now....7 years after the episode first aired.  If that's not an accomplishment...

Kudos to @gingerella for keeping things alive for us!

Yay!!🎉

[gingerella]

31 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Also, I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back.  This thread is marked as "hot" and is trending on Primetimer right now....7 years after the episode first aired.  If that's not an accomplishment...

Kudos to @gingerella for keeping things alive for us!

Well I've had alot of help from @Anothermi too, and @Pallas should be rejoining our little group shortly. She was sent on errands to Castle Leoch but shall return soon to us.

I thank you ladies - @SassAndSnacks, @Beeyago, @Camera One, and @Cdh20 for shepherding us through this with nary a spoiler. I know how difficult that must be, and if I were doing the same for Unsullied on the GoT threads right now it would be damn near impossible not to spoiler them. So kudos to you guys, it's a richer viewing experience with you walking beside us.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

It doesn't make sense, but when does this sort of thing ever make sense?  (I say that not in a condescending or angry tone.  It is definitely a resigned, sad tone.)  After I first watched this episode, and through my time as an enthusiastic fan and reader of this series, I had to assess why I like the whole story so much because it is freaking violent and sad and dirty and weird and inappropriate and a lot of not great things.  And I felt really guilty for awhile that I like it so much, because surely there must be something wrong with me since I do like is so much.  

It's really about a whole journey.  And life in general is a whole journey with some truly amazing, beautiful moments and then some other earth-shattering, soul-splintering moments.  How do we as people continue to pick ourselves up and keep going?  It is a concept and an action that has always fascinated me, the way that people are so resilient.  

I appreciate, deeply, how this show (and thereby this story) doesn't shy away from the absolute shittiness that can happen to a truly good person like Jamie.  Initially with BJR, Jamie was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and look at how that moment completely changed the course of his life.  And then Claire pops out of some rocks and look at how that moment further changes the course.  Every day we make such minor decisions that can unwittingly change the course of the rest of our lives.  It's heavy but true.  But how will Jamie rise above all of this, where does he go now? 

I also appreciate how the show tells the story, and I think it does it in a way that is very different from GoT.  I think it does handle these situations with a lot of care and sensitivity. Personally, this episode taught me a lot on a subject I probably would have never explored nor ever cared to explore.  Strangely, I feel like a better person for it.  

I also comfort myself with my fandom by recognizing that I love the beautiful relationships laid out in the story.  Jamie has such wonderful support from Claire, Murtagh, and Ian.  He has a sister that would do absolutely anything for him.  People are drawn to him.  I love how Claire is the focus of the story, but we get to watch the evolution of Jamie happening parallel to her.  And because I'm a Claire fangirl, I like to think that she has played a huge part in the evolution and helped to make the man that is Jamie Fraser.

I didn't mean to get all soap-boxy.  Outlander makes me introspective.  

This post really helped soothe me this morning, thank you. I do get what you're saying, and while I'm sure horrible things happened during this time period, I guess I could have gotten the point without it being as graphic, it felt gratuitous and that's saying a lot given that I only saw snippets as I f/f'd.  Your bolded parts really resonated with me as well, and gave me some comfort though I feel like we're still headed for more difficult times.

You are right though, without Claire, Jamie would likely have died many different ways, and he probably wouldn't have cared because he had nobody to live for. Not that anyone should live for another person, but he hadn't felt the sort of passionate, romantic love that Claire brought into his life, nor had she if she'd stayed in her safe world with a boring windbag of a husband (who would forever remind her of his disgusting relative). So all these things had to happen I suppose. I just feel like I need some healing and happiness for these two, and Claire needs to stop thinking she can stop the battle at Cullodon and just have a happy life with Jamie in France or even better, somewhere else entirely. Just fucking disappear off the map, nowhere for anyone to find them again. But I know that won't happen...alas.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

She IS annoying and impulsive and occasionally bitchy and sometimes self-centered and a know-it-all and she speaks without thinking.  I, too, am all of these things, and I recognize her and empathize with her.  She's also incredibly caring and intelligent and funny.  She's my girl.  Well, her and Michelle Kwan...but that's a totally different forum.

First, I think I relate to Claire for the same reasons, I can be known to shoot off my trap but it's always because I'm trying to fight for what's right, so I get it. And Michelle Kwan, girrrrlllll, do NOT get me started on how robbed she was at the Olympics!!!!

[Anothermi]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

If I met him in real life I could not have a relationship on any level with him because I would be thinking what a disputable character he seemed to relish playing. THAT is how disturbed I am right now, and yeah I now that doesn’t make sense but that’s how I feel right now.

For my part, I am impressed with Tobias Menzies acting because of this show. I also worry for him as a person. Acting an evil person is a double edged sword. Some actors have the ability to dive deep and find an equivalent—if not the same— emotion in themselves and step away from it unscathed after each scene. Some not. I fervently hope Tobias had that ability and support for it.

6 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

It doesn't make sense, but when does this sort of thing ever make sense?  (I say that not in a condescending or angry tone.  It is definitely a resigned, sad tone.)  After I first watched this episode, and through my time as an enthusiastic fan and reader of this series, I had to assess why I like the whole story so much because it is freaking violent and sad and dirty and weird and inappropriate and a lot of not great things.  And I felt really guilty for awhile that I like it so much, because surely there must be something wrong with me since I do like is so much.  

It's really about a whole journey.  And life in general is a whole journey with some truly amazing, beautiful moments and then some other earth-shattering, soul-splintering moments.  How do we as people continue to pick ourselves up and keep going?  It is a concept and an action that has always fascinated me, the way that people are so resilient.  

I appreciate, deeply, how this show (and thereby this story) doesn't shy away from the absolute shittiness that can happen to a truly good person like Jamie.  Initially with BJR, Jamie was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and look at how that moment completely changed the course of his life.  And then Claire pops out of some rocks and look at how that moment further changes the course.  Every day we make such minor decisions that can unwittingly change the course of the rest of our lives.  It's heavy but true.  But how will Jamie rise above all of this, where does he go now? 

I also appreciate how the show tells the story, and I think it does it in a way that is very different from GoT.  I think it does handle these situations with a lot of care and sensitivity. Personally, this episode taught me a lot on a subject I probably would have never explored nor ever cared to explore.  Strangely, I feel like a better person for it.  

I also comfort myself with my fandom by recognizing that I love the beautiful relationships laid out in the story.  Jamie has such wonderful support from Claire, Murtagh, and Ian.  He has a sister that would do absolutely anything for him.  People are drawn to him.  I love how Claire is the focus of the story, but we get to watch the evolution of Jamie happening parallel to her.  And because I'm a Claire fangirl, I like to think that she has played a huge part in the evolution and helped to make the man that is Jamie Fraser.

I didn't mean to get all soap-boxy.  Outlander makes me introspective.  

Thanks for saving me the trouble of finding words to express what I feel about the show so far. I'm actually amazed that you've captured almost every thought I would have posted—except that I find Claire annoying. But not enough to hate her. The one thing I really appreciate about her is her persistent support of other women—despite being betrayed by many of them (Leery, Geillis' servant and the mother of the "changeling" child—off the top of my head).  

I think you've covered everything else quite eloquently. ((hugs))

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

An important point I missed saying is that you have to actually watch the show & see everyone’s faces. My one friend likes to just have it on while she runs around doing stuff, I can’t imagine you get anything out of it that way! 

Agreed. Especially with this show. So much is said without dialogue. (Listening via an audio book would be different because the unspoken exchanges have to be written down, so you get to hear them.  I've got the audio books on my wish list at my library but won't borrow them for quite a while.)

Quote

@gingerella wrote:

I thank you ladies - @SASSANDSNACKS, @BEEYAGO, @CAMERA ONE, and @CDH20 for shepherding us through this with nary a spoiler. I know how difficult that must be, and if I were doing the same for Unsullied on the GoT threads right now it would be damn near impossible not to spoiler them. So kudos to you guys, it's a richer viewing experience with you walking beside us.

 

I SECOND THAT EMOTION.!

@gingerella  @Pallas and I have been known to maintain a fairly sustained volley of exchanges back on the GoT Unsullied forum, but you wonderful folks have truly made the experience here welcoming and added food for thought.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Anothermi
replaced repeated quote with the correct one

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Well I've had alot of help from @Anothermi too, and @Pallas should be rejoining our little group shortly. She was sent on errands to Castle Leoch but shall return soon to us.

Of course! I didn’t want to tag them until they were ready to join this thread.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

And Michelle Kwan, girrrrlllll, do NOT get me started on how robbed she was at the Olympics!!

Did we just become best friends?

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

This post really helped soothe me this morning, thank you.

Oh, good!!

15 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

The one thing I really appreciate about her is her persistent support of other women—despite being betrayed by many of them (Leery, Geillis' servant and the mother of the "changeling" child off—the top of my head).

Me too. She may not like them, but she doesn’t trash them for the sake of trashing them. 

[Anothermi]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Well, again, I figured BJR was headed towards raping Jamie so I f/f’d through it but I saw enough as I was forwarding to make me ill. This show has taken a decisively disturbing turn and after enduring 8 long years of GoT torture, violent rapes, and gruesome murders, I don’t know if this series is for me if this sort of thing continues to happen every season. I am so disturbed that I literally never want to see the actor who plays Frank/BJR ever again, which sucks because he’s on The Crown where I left off and I honestly cannot bear to look at him again. If I met him in real life I could not have a relationship on any level with him because I would be thinking what a disputable character he seemed to relish playing. THAT is how disturbed I am right now, and yeah I now that doesn’t make sense but that’s how I feel right now.

I need for Randall to be fucking dead. I need for him to have died after that, and to die by such a freak accident death. Please let him be dead now.

Jamie...I can understand why he wanted to die, but I’m also thinking, how can he not know that this was not his fault, that he was a victim of torture. Then I think of who Jamie is thus far, and really he is a simple soul who feels things deeply, more deeply than anyone and I guess it makes sense? Ah Fuck, none of this makes sense, who am I kidding. I had no eloquent thoughts on this show right now. I feel violated, duped, horrified, and very disappointed. It would be interesting to see how Claire, and Jamie as her husband, might have changed social norms in Highlander Scotland. But the constant cycle of loving couple ripped apart, wife almost raped, husband beaten almost to death, rinse and repeat, I just can’t. Is this the entire premise of this series? I thought it was a great tale of a love story based on a time travel premise, but if it’s just a never ending cycle of violence and gore, I can’t continue.

On a positive note, at least we know that Frank couldnt have children so maybe the Randall line will end with him and I would be fine with that.

The last two episodes really were hard slogging @GINGERELLA.

I was fearful of what would be thrown at us—in the way of torture and violence—in the last two episodes.  And it was... difficult. They didn't whitewash anything. 

My problem is that I sincerely appreciate that this show's runners seem dedicated to a closer-than-normal adherence to reality—despite this being a historical fantasy. And further, that each scene seems to be included as part of the character building. (OK, I didn't think that prolonging the sex scenes built character, but those private moments inform our characters as much as the experience of violence does, so I guess I didn't like feeling like a voyeur.)

So, I've learned that I miss a great deal of character development if I FF through those torture scenes in this show. And I'm noticing a strain of cynicism arising in me as I view them. I guess that as long as they subvert my cynical expectations I'll stick with the show. My current cynical expectation/fear is that they will just leave Jamie's rather quick recovery from his emotional damage and never address that it can/will return and affect future decisions. But I won't know unless I keep watching and so far the show has gone deeper into human psychology than most other TV series. So I'm still in. 

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

An important point I missed saying is that you have to actually watch the show & see everyone’s faces. My one friend likes to just have it on while she runs around doing stuff, I can’t imagine you get anything out of it that way! 

That's actually how I watched much of Season 1 the first time through.  I usually have a ton of paperwork to do each night, and this method of viewing is fine for a lot of procedural shows, but I agree that losing the facial expressions is not worth it.  Though I am so adverse to gore and violence that this is a way to avoid seeing stuff I don't want to see.

[gingerella]

I just tried re-watching the romantic bits of the Wedding episode to cleanse my mind and all I could think of was, "Poor Jamie, it's going to get so much more worse than you know." I hope with time I can forget some of the worst of these last two episodes.

[Cdh20]

37 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That's actually how I watched much of Season 1 the first time through.  I usually have a ton of paperwork to do each night, and this method of viewing is fine for a lot of procedural shows, but I agree that losing the facial expressions is not worth it.  Though I am so adverse to gore and violence that this is a way to avoid seeing stuff I don't want to see.

My favourite way is an iPad & headphones in the dark! 

[Beeyago]

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

For my part, I am impressed with Tobias Menzies acting because of this show. I also worry for him as a person. Acting an evil person is a double edged sword. Some actors have the ability to dive deep and find an equivalent—if not the same— emotion in themselves and step away from it unscathed after each scene. Some not. I fervently hope Tobias had that ability and support for it.

Not sure how you guys feel about behind the scenes stuff but since you mentioned it I’ll add that according to exec producer/show runner Ron Moore, at least at the time Tobias handled it fine. It was Sam who was struggling at times during filming. 

[Beeyago]

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

My favourite way is an iPad & headphones in the dark! 

Agreed. That’s pretty much how I watched seasons 3-5 and now when I rewatch any episodes. Sound is so much better with headphones. You pick up so much more. And so many scenes are dark anyway, it’s easier to watch in a dark room. 

[Anothermi]

I only read the responses from the start of the show in the Episode 1 thread. Didn't have time to read back in most other episode threads. But I think it was in the Ep 01 thread that I encountered a link to a blog by a woman who was studying Gaelic and putting up translations of some of the Gaelic phrases used in the show. She had a number of people helping and providing better translations—one of whom was a professor of Gaelic in Scotland who was the person who taught the actors proper pronunciation and advised the show on the Gaelic dialog.

Anyway, there was quite a bit of Gaelic dialog in this episode and it provided information about what was said that I-for-one appreciated knowing. 

I'm posting a link to the page of the blog that deals with this episode. Click on it or not. It's your choice.

 https://greatscotblog.com/2015/06/

[SassAndSnacks]

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I'm posting a link to the page of the blog that deals with this episode. Click on it or not. It's your choice.

This is brilliant!  Thanks so much for sharing.

[gingerella]

I'm moving this from my last night's post on The Wedding thread to here because it references this episode and if new viewers come along I don't want to ruin it for them.

Quote

 

I’m watching The Wedding episode again - in an attempt to remember more innocent times of A Show - and when Claire asked Jamie why he married her, he says to protect her, and he goes on to say, “You have my name, my Clan, my family, and if necessary the protection of my body as well...” I think he proves this in the last episode of the season, where he literally gives everything he has to protect her. Heartbreakingly poignant in retrospect.

 

He will do anything to protect Claire, that is the sort of man anyone would want to have beside them in life, yes?

Also, pulling the below from The Wedding to here...

On 3/14/2021 at 12:23 PM, gingerella said:

On 3/14/2021 at 12:11 PM, Anothermi said:

I've only read it once, but I agree with the bolded part (I haven't read any other synopses, but I trust Gingerella.) And now I won't (may not) have to go back and watch it again. 😄

And it harkens back to Episode One when he (painfully I might add) wraps the cloak around both of them while they ride through the rain.  He initiates the first one, she the second—with reciprocal feeling. 

Yes! I was just coming here to say that I also loved when she wraps Jaime's tartan around his shoulders the third go, because he did that for her when first they met. She was so on guard that first time, being plunked on a horse, sitting basically in a strange man's lap in the rain wearing nothing but a rain sodden thin dress. His gesture was not just protection from the elements in that moment, it was also protection for Claire, to make her feel like someone was taking care of her, watching out for her, but no words were really said. And in that moment she was probably too traumatized to know or feel any of that. But this time, she essentially does the same exact thing to Jaime. She is wrapping his tartan around his shoulders to keep him warm while they're engaged in sex, but she is also telling him - by doing that and by looking him directly in the eyes - that yes, what he hoped her wedding kiss meant, it did mean that, it does mean that, she does feel what he is feeling. She is the one now cloaking him in protection, they are one now. It's damn good, and damn difficult to convey that sort of intense feeling without it coming across as a Hallmark movie.

Say what you will about Claire not being able to temper her disdain for 18th century Scottish social norms, she most certainly DOES protect Jamie by rescuing him in his time of need. These two...

Edited March 25, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm moving this from my last night's post on The Wedding thread to here because it references this episode and if new viewers come along I don't want to ruin it for them.

He will do anything to protect Claire, that is the sort of man anyone would want to have beside them in life, yes?

Also, pulling the below from The Wedding to here...

Say what you will about Claire not being able to temper her disdain for 18th century Scottish social norms, she most certainly DOES protect Jamie by rescuing him in his time of need. These two...

I loved that after Jamie rescuing Claire several times earlier in the season, she gets the chance to rescue him back, proving her love, & as BlackJack mentions is a fit match for her husband. 

[mythoughtis]

I fast forwarded through a lot of this episode.  Not my cup of tea.   In real 1743 life, I do not think the brutal rape all night long of a Scottish Laird in prison by a Captain would  have occurred.  I do not think that BJR, with his brutal preferences,  would have  survived in the military for as long as he did in that timeframe. On top of the brutality, his sexual  preferences were not accepted by society back then.  Patron or not.   
In the Vietnam war, a term came into being.  Fragging.  I am sure there was a comparable  term in the 1700s.  
I also do not believe that as much brutality as the show has was this commonplace even back then.  Not to say it was totally absent, but not daily as it seems to be here.

I do not think Claire felt there was anything she needed to forgive Jamie for.  She told him that - but he felt he needed to be forgiven. At that moment,  ‘forgiving him’  would have been the quickest way to get him to move from wanting to die to start taking the steps needed  to not die. 
 

Since Claire has no knowledge of any special stones in France, she’s not likely to be going back to 1945.  Also can’t plan on coming back to Scotland  to try it after 1746. 
 

After the first  8 episodes, I thought about reading the books.  Now, I think not, 

Edited August 11, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Scarlett45]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:14 PM, mythoughtis said:

I fast forwarded through a lot of this episode.  Not my cup of tea.   In real 1743 life, I do not think the brutal rape all night long of a Scottish Laird in prison by a Captain would  have occurred.  I do not think that BJR, with his brutal preferences,  would have  survived in the military for as long as he did in that timeframe. On top of the brutality, his sexual  preferences were not accepted by society back then.  Patron or not.   

BJR is a bully and a sadist. Many bullies and sadists are attracted to the military for the order and the socially acceptable way to exercise their tendencies. He would only pick on people that were physically and socially weaker than him. He wouldn’t dare try these things with his social equals- he would’ve survived just fine in the military as long as he maintained the social order.