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The Crazed Spruce

S01.E09: Speak Of The Devil

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All I could think of was Super Sayans and blood evidence which is going to bite Murdock, Esquire in his firm, shapely ass.

 

Okay, and hugging Foggy. Someone needs to do so.

 

Okay, and Nobu is hard-core man! Hard. Core!

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You know, every time I think they've hit the limit on how brutal the fights are going to be, they manage to top themselves.

 

I was really not expecting Foggy to find out this early.

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Wilson's lines about meditation - shortform: "i can't meditate, my mind never quiets. It's a character flaw" really endeared him to me, as that's always been my problem with the concept of meditating. How do you shut up your head??

Also, is Claire not coming back?? If so, i'm hugely disappointed! She hasn't appeared in episodes (aka in the last severalhours of my watching) - i really liked her!

Edited by marieYOTZ
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I was really not expecting Foggy to find out this early.

 

Most shows drag out the best friend knowing until like three/four seasons in.  I like the idea that Foggy finds out pretty quickly.   

 

Brutal fights scenes.  The fight scenes alone would make the show worth watching but the acting.....wow the acting.  

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Also, is Claire not coming back??

 

If Matt really needs her, she'll be there to help him. (I'm ready for Night Nurse: The Series; they have the tagline even!)

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The plan to get information from the Kingpin's girlfriend sure was ill planned, "I'm looking for art... the kind a crime lord would also appreciate, do you know any?"

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Damn, this was one of the big event episodes, to say the least.  Matt and Fisk meet face-to-face (both in and out of mask!), Matt has to break his no kill rule with Nobu, and now Foggy knows who Matt is.  Glad that reveal has already happened.  Since Foggy's been so anti-Black Mask compared to the rest, I see some problems arising.  Now, hopefully, the show won't drag out Karen being kept in the dark.  I really don't want another Iris West/The Flash situation, going on here.

 

Really didn't predict that Nobu had that in him.  Really felt like Matt was out of his element, and he only won but willpower, sheer force, and, frankly, luck.  And, then Fisk just flat-out kicks his ass, because he was so weak.  Matt really should have just gotten out of there as soon as possible, but his anger was just too much. At least he lives to fight another day.

 

Poor Elaine.  I figured something bad was going to happen to her.  And, it leads to Karen and Foggy getting drunk again, only this was way sadder then before.  But they are so great at it. Show really got lucky that Deborah Ann Woll and Elden Henson work so well together.

 

Enjoyed seeing Ben meet normal Matt Murdock.  Hopefully, we'll get more Matt/Karen/Foggy/Ben stuff, going forward.

 

Count me as someone who is missing Claire, so hope this latest beat-down, is big enough that Matt has to call her back in.  All the cast is great, but I am missing Rosario Dawson.

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I'm not sure that Matt broke his "no kill" policy at all. Sure, he knew (hoped) that breaking the light and causing the sparks would light Nobu on fire; it was a desperation move, something he had to do to save his own life. But Nobu was still alive- badly burned and unconscious, but still alive. He could have lived; IIRC, when Wesley asks what to do about him, Fisk says "let him burn." If Fisk and crew hadn't shown up, who is to say that Matt wouldn't have tried to save Nobu's life?

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Dousing someone in gasoline and then lighting them up is an attempt to kill them. Gruesomely. That can in no way be construed as an attempt at non-lethal force. So yes. it breaks his policy for sure and certain sure. Would you consider your own argument in any way valid if we were talking about the actions of someone not the protagonist of the show? Imagine for a moment Nobu doing this exact thing to.. oh, Weasley. Would you give him a pass? 

It does not help at all that he went to that warehouse with murder in his heart, and was in fact not defending.. anyone at all other than himself. No hostages, no clock ticking. He walked in, "Oh, this is a trap, guess I'm fighting this guy now". He ended the episode diving out of the window and escaping. The correct response to finding that you have just walked into a prepared ambush is to do that *right away*. So it wasn't just breaking his no kill rule, it was doing so gratuitously and stupidly. 

Edited by Izeinwinter

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I don't recall him dousing Nobu with gasoline, and setting him on fire. Somewhere in the fight the gasoline can got ruptured; then, considerably later, he deflect a weapon thrown by Nobu, that hit the light and caused a spark. I don't recall him rupturing the gas can on purpose, nor did he throw something intentionally at the light. It looked like an accident to me. I also don't think he would have continued to struggle whether to kill or not afterwards if he'd already killed Nobu. It makes no narrative sense for him to do so; nor does it make sense for him to tell the priest that he hadn't (intentionally) killed if he had. I think the writer's intent is to view Nobu's death as a freak accident because everything else falls apart if it wasn't.

Edited by Lokiberry
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He kicked him into the gasoline barrel, then deflected his weapon up into the lighting armature. There is no way any of that was accidental, given his senses. Gasoline *reeks*. If the writers meant for that to be an accident, they really did not communicate that successfully to the stunt coordinators at all. Or to me. 

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I'll have to watch it again, but, as I recall the scene- the gasoline tanks are ruptured accidentally (by Nobu, if I'm not mistaken), and Matt just kicks him to knock him away, but not intentionally into the gas. He does break the light and create the sparks to ignite the gas, yes, but it was very definitely a desperate, spur of the moment decision he makes to save his life. He was very clearly outmatched and severely injured, and really didn't have much (if any) other options to save himself.

 

Granted, yes, he did go there intending to kill Fisk, and but for the untimely intervention of Nobu, might have done so- or at least would have tried. But it doesn't seem to me he intended to kill Nobu at all and though that was the result of their fight, I don't view it as him "attempting to kill" Nobu.

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I'll have to watch it again, but, as I recall the scene- the gasoline tanks are ruptured accidentally (by Nobu, if I'm not mistaken), and Matt just kicks him to knock him away, but not intentionally into the gas. He does break the light and create the sparks to ignite the gas, yes, but it was very definitely a desperate, spur of the moment decision he makes to save his life. He was very clearly outmatched and severely injured, and really didn't have much (if any) other options to save himself.

 

Granted, yes, he did go there intending to kill Fisk, and but for the untimely intervention of Nobu, might have done so- or at least would have tried. But it doesn't seem to me he intended to kill Nobu at all and though that was the result of their fight, I don't view it as him "attempting to kill" Nobu.

 

 Yeah the gas break was an accident but Matt made a last minute decision to stop Nobu. I can't fault him for that. It wasn't like with Fisk killing the brother at the end of episode 4. He knew right there and then he was going to make sure he was dead. Maybe not  by beating him to death and then decapitating him with the car door but he planned on killing him right there and then. Matt had to make a last minute decision and he has done that in the comics before. He doesn't like it when he has to go to that extremes but he has done it.

Edited by readster
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Matt has been struggling with the idea of going after Fisk with the intent to kill. And the conversations with his priest have detailed that very clearly. I don't really have a problem with what Matt decided to do or what happened with Nobu. With Nobu, it was clearly a kill or be killed situation. Matt was done. He was sliced up and bleeding and it was a pure last ditch shot to ricochet the club off the blade into the light which cause the sparks to shower down and made Nobu ignite. If Fisk hadn't shown up, I expect Matt would have doused Nobu in order to get more information... I mean, Vladamir was on death's door and Matt did a hell of a lot to keep him alive in order to get to the real problem and he already knew what a monster Vladamir was. It's just that Vladamir wasn't the top of the totem pole and that's what Matt was looking for. You sure can't say the guy does things in half measures.

 

Sidenote: I find I'm weirdly a sucker for things like "You are a worthy opponent. It will be an honor to take your life." It didn't necessarily make me root for or even like Nobu... but I found myself rather proud of Matt for it.

 

So there's this continuous struggle in regards to morality and killing and what that means for a hero... meanwhile, there's Fisk. Fisk has an old woman stabbed to death as a means of luring Matt out and then goes into his whole speech about how Matt has proven to have a weakness for women and children and assumed that would extend to the elderly. "I took no pleasure in it..." as if that's supposed to be honorable somehow. Or even mean anything. Delighting in paying off a junkie to murder an old lady to draw out an opponent vs not taking any pleasure in using the lives of the weak as bait are just two sides of the same coin. I like that no matter how many facets they give Fisk, he's still the villain. No matter how he feels about Wesley or Vanessa he's still a bad person who casually causes death and mayhem to suit his own needs... and no matter what line of bull he spews, those needs are not altruistic.

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Great fight between Matt and Nobu.  Matt definitely set him up to be burned.  It was self-defense in that case but he still killed him.  Though I think if Fisk hadn't of shown up, he would have tried to have saved his life.

 

Great episode.  Great to have Matt and Fisk finally meet face to face and neither scene disappointed.  Matt's decision to go after him here had a "Born Again" vibe to it to those who are familiar with the story.  Matt barely survives with his life but I can't get over the fact that he leaves so much blood wherever he is, that Fisk or the cops absolutely should be able to collect it and figure out who he is.

 

I'm glad Foggy found out.  Not just for the tension but because it would have been ridiculous for Foggy to keep ignoring all the bruises that Matt was racking up.

 

Poor Mrs. Cardenas.

 

This seemed to be the first episode to acknowledge that Matt can also read the ink off of papers.

 

Absolutely loved the scene between Matt and Vanessa.  Every actor seems to bounce off of each other well on this show.

Edited by benteen
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I thought Nobu was dead, when that guy asked what should be done with him.

 

Is the priest supposed to look like an older version of Fisk's bully? I kept linking the two, whenever he was on screen.

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When Matt hit the water I shouted at the screen "Chum!", considering he'd just been gutted like a sea bass.  Which brought me to my next thought "This is when Foggy & Karen find out Matt is Mask".  Because he should have been a walking fracture every morning at the office.  There was no way they could string out the geewhiz-I'm-such-a-clumsy-blind-man excuse any longer.  Man, that fight scene was brutal.  Each one more than the last.  I love the stunts and fights on this show.

 

I also loved the Matt/Priest conversations.  (Not the least of which is that Charlie Cox positively purrrrrs his dialogue when he speaks quietly.)  I'm a sucker for the good man needs to do evil dilemma.

 

The acting on this show is all around first rate.  I had never seen any of the three main leads before this.  I am really impressed, especially, with what Charlie Cox is able to convey when wearing the mask.  A slight head tilt, miniscule jaw movement, a tweak at the corner of his mouth.

 

I can only assume we'll see Claire again, eventually.  You don't cast the terrific Rosario Dawson and not use her.  Looking forward to more!

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I'm mostly onboard with Matt lighting Nobu up, but that aside, it does seem like a bit of an easy out that this ninja badass didn't notice he was doused with gasoline.

 

Also, why were they only things in an empty-ish warehouse chairs, desks, blueprints... and barrels of gasoline?

 

I guess "donde esta la biblioteca" is a stock "learning Spanish" phrase but I personally cannot separate it from Community at this point.

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I'm mostly onboard with Matt lighting Nobu up, but that aside, it does seem like a bit of an easy out that this ninja badass didn't notice he was doused with gasoline.

 

Also, why were they only things in an empty-ish warehouse chairs, desks, blueprints... and barrels of gasoline?

 

I guess "donde esta la biblioteca" is a stock "learning Spanish" phrase but I personally cannot separate it from Community at this point.

 

I think Nobu probably knew he doused with gasoline but given that there were no open flames or anything it wasn't an immediate concern. Also, he was pretty damn close to killing Matt. It was the sparks from a broken lightbulb that ended up setting him aflame so I can see how that wasn't something he expected.

 

Stock Spanish phrases... yeah, I don't watch Community so it just struck me as 'something learned in Spanish when I was in jr. high that stuck.' Mine are actually 'Que hora es?' and 'Paco es estudiante. Hola, Paco!' And the alphabet. I remember the alphabet.

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I think Nobu probably knew he doused with gasoline but given that there were no open flames or anything it wasn't an immediate concern. Also, he was pretty damn close to killing Matt. It was the sparks from a broken lightbulb that ended up setting him aflame so I can see how that wasn't something he expected.

 

Stock Spanish phrases... yeah, I don't watch Community so it just struck me as 'something learned in Spanish when I was in jr. high that stuck.' Mine are actually 'Que hora es?' and 'Paco es estudiante. Hola, Paco!' And the alphabet. I remember the alphabet.

 

 Watching the episode again this weekend, yeah I don't think Nobu was worried. Plus if you really look at the fight, Matt just deflected the blade higher so he couldn't whip it around again and hit him. Hence, the light got hit and the sparks caused the fire. At that point Nobu figured he could kill Matt and then roll out and instead it was his end.

Edited by readster

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No one mentioned the dreams Matt had of the upcoming death match with Nobu. He knew on some level what was going to happen because in his dreams he saw himself die.

 

I love the scenes with him and the priest, and maybe the priest is the guy Fisk's late unlamented father had him beat up. 

 

Fisk and the painting = Fisk and the wall he was told to stare at by his father while he beat William's mother. The actress who played his mother was excellent. Yes the fight between Matt and Nobu was awesome and well choreographed but after young William bashes his father's head in did anyone expect his mother to say "get the saw"? One of the most chilling scenes I've ever scene on television.

 

The whole episode was about intent and of course the concept of evil. Did his father "intend" to brutally beat his wife? Did young William "intend" to bash his father's head in? Then we get to the really hard stuff. By dismembering her barely still alive husband what was Mrs Fisk's intent? There is no doubt about Fisk's intent regarding the Mask and his way of going about it. I thought of the discussion with the priest about the man in Rwanda who ended up having to murder a good man with his own hands because the man's existence bothered him.

 

Matt did not "intend" to kill Nobu but he didn't "intend" to die there either. 

 

Fisk, in wanting to show what a "big man" he is beat up a defenseless Matt because he could. It was interesting to me that he didn't try and lift the mask to find out who his presumed next victim was. Or actually who Wesley's next victim was. That struck me as odd too. We know Fisk will kill but why not in the warehouse? Does he have to be in a rage to do something himself? 

 

I'm hoping Rosario Dawson is back soon. Matt is so beat up he needs her help. 

 

I'm wondering what will happen if Fisk ever gets angry with Vanessa? 

I'm babbling so I'll stop now.

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Fisk, in wanting to show what a "big man" he is beat up a defenseless Matt because he could. It was interesting to me that he didn't try and lift the mask to find out who his presumed next victim was.

I was yelling "no fair!" at the screen like a grade-schooler when Fisk beat him up. The reason Fisk didn't go for the mask right away is probably because he was completely certain guy's about to be eliminated. Nobu had that same certainty and that's what got him killed.

 

I like that no matter how many facets they give Fisk, he's still the villain. No matter how he feels about Wesley or Vanessa he's still a bad person who casually causes death and mayhem to suit his own needs... and no matter what line of bull he spews, those needs are not altruistic.

Yep, that's about where I draw the line between hero and villain. For the hero, killing is a last resort. For the villain, killing is no big deal.

 

Wilson's lines about meditation - shortform: "i can't meditate, my mind never quiets. It's a character flaw" really endeared him to me, as that's always been my problem with the concept of meditating. How do you shut up your head??

That's what the "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound" type koans are for. You're supposed to hold one of those riddles with no answer as a thought in your head and use that as a stepping stone to get to the completely quiet place. It is hard, though, for sure.

 

he leaves so much blood wherever he is, that Fisk or the cops absolutely should be able to collect it and figure out who he is.

Matt has never been arrested (as far as we know), so his DNA wouldn't be in the system, would it? And the blind lawyer is the last person most people would suspect, so I buy him being able to keep his identity secret way more than I ever bought Batman keeping his identity secret.
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Actually in TV land they get meditation a bit wrong. Meditating while sitting is hard, because you are basically comfortable on your butt. Standing up is a lost easier in regards to going into the mood that allows mediation... Unfortunately I am unable to find good pictures, so I will simply describe it. In one of the easiest poses you are standing up with your legs spread as far as your shoulders. Then you go down a bit, beding you knees, but with your back straight. You go down ad much as comfortable... the pressure should be on your toes mainly. Your hands are in the air, in front of you, bended in the elbow palms turned forward, as if there is a wall infront of you and you are touching it. Eyes closed...

Because you are in not very comfortable position, you concentrate to keep your balance, your center and it gets a lot easier to gradually stop the background noise in your head. Little by little you relax, make your muscles unknit and lo and behold... eventually you get to that feeling and state of mind easy. And then you meditate for yound 40 minutes... it's a bitch at the beginning and your legs hurt and your hands hurt and it shows that you need to practice more.

 

Another pose is the classis tai-chi pose in which you take the pose of a stretch, ralmost squatting, left foot behind you, right foot infrong of you, left hand above your head, right hand infront of you, back straight... and meditate 40 more minutes. And then grab a sword in the hand above your head. :)

Fisk is overly confident, which is why I think he didn't go for the mask. Or he has a serious case of -main-villian-stupiditiness... it's hella contagious, since obviously nobody has tried to rip that mask. Hell if that was me, I'd collect as much photos of him and start searching in one way or another. :)

 

Eh, the Punisher killes but he is not considered villian, is he?

Edited by Eneya

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Isn't the Punisher an anti-hero?

 

Looks like Nobu meditated by balancing on a beam or something on the ceiling (he flipped down from somewhere when he showed up). That is some hardcore meditating.

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The Punisher is on the darker side of anti-hero. He also seems to be more inclined to accept how close he is to what he fights against. "A monster I am lest a monster I become" sort of situation.

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Yeesh. That was some brutal punishment Nobu inflicted on Matt. One of the things that amazes me about this series is just how much damage he takes, and just manages to keep on going. And because the story being told is happening over such a tight timespan, there's really not enough time for him to recover from one beating before he takes another.

 

Foggy finding out was a surprise, but it had to happen. Because if they couldn't get Rosario Dawson back, someone had to stick Matt's insides back in and stitch up the holes.

And it turns out Claire did do that, but offscreen and much cheaper for the producers.

I miss her. Get her back more often, guys.

 

I liked Matt being torn between sticking to his no-killing policy and killing Fisk because it would just be so much easier. It's something that these no-kill vigilantes should be wrestling with, and something that Batman fans have debated for decades ('why doesn't he just kill the Joker, and be done with it?'). Because it would be easier, and how can you just keep going out and destroying yourself, over and over again, only to achieve nothing?

 

Mrs Cardenas being killed was sad, but as soon as she said she was going to convince the others to make a stand, she was a goner. An example of when sticking to your principles can actually be the wrong decision, in my view. She became a martyr that only three people cared about, and Fisk gets what he wants anyway. 

 

Sidenote: I find I'm weirdly a sucker for things like "You are a worthy opponent. It will be an honor to take your life." It didn't necessarily make me root for or even like Nobu... but I found myself rather proud of Matt for it.

 

Me too. Often it's just hokey, but when it's done well, it does make you swell with pride for your plucky hero. Nobu respected him, Fisk respected him. Matt has earned that from them, both for his skill and for his sheer, bloody-minded refusal to lie down. I like those moments of recognition between hero and villain, because it just raises questions of what things could be like if each of them had made different choices, somewhere along the way.

Edited by The Crazed Spruce · Reason: hid minor spoiler from the next episode
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Little things I'm noticing on rewatch (with descriptive audio!):

 

Matt's little smile when they're all at the office and Karen is saying the masked man kicks ass and they should have seen the way he was flipping around in the rain.

 

Descriptive audio sure makes it easier to figure out what's going on in the fight scenes. I mean, the fight scenes on this show are clearer and more well put together than most, but the action goes by so quickly I get lost on what's going on.

 

According to the descriptive audio, that very flammable liquid is cleaning solvent, not gasoline. I had no idea cleaning solvent is so flammable!

 

So, with that added bit of knowledge, I can buy that Matt was just trying to take out the light (he does have a distinct advantage in the dark) and he didn't know it would set Nobu on fire.

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I think the manner of Nobu's death was an accident, but only one - if either - was going to survive unless someone ran.  This was the most brutal fight to date and was hard to watch in places.  I'm often not a fan of split time episodes, but this diluted some of the brutality.  Fisk's attack on an already wounded Matt was bad too.  I was surprised that Fisk asked Wesley to kill Matt, and that he wasn't angry with Wesley when Matt jumped out the window.

 

I also keep thinking about the DNA evidence Matt is leaving behind.  I would think that his fingerprints might be on file as a legal professional.

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Matt does wear gloves, so not too many chances of leaving fingerprints. And he's probably not on any DNA database. Arguably the bad guys could use his DNA to try and match it to anyone they suspect might be the masked man, but are they ever going to suspect the blind lawyer enough to try to test his DNA?

 

Nobu certainly wasn't going to run away no matter what. Too much pride for that. He wouldn't even stop when he was on fire. I did wonder why Matt didn't jump out the window earlier. Also why did he try to block a knife with his arms, didn't he know it was a knife?

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 This was the most brutal fight to date and was hard to watch in places.  I'm often not a fan of split time episodes, but this diluted some of the brutality.  

What really impressed me was Charlie Cox's reactions to the beatdown. His screams once he started getting hit with that knife on a chain thing seemed very realistic.

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This didn't even occur to me until listening to the AfterBuzzTV podcast about this episode, but that water Matt jumped into with a gazillion open wounds? It's probably pretty nasty. Eww... infection city!

 

But, hey, it's better than getting shot dead. So there's that.

 

Sidenote: Matt meeting Fisk at Vanessa's art gallery? I was like "awkward!"

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According to the descriptive audio, that very flammable liquid is cleaning solvent, not gasoline. I had no idea cleaning solvent is so flammable!

Good. That makes me feel much better. Not because I'm wrestling with the idea of whether or not Matt brutally burned that guy alive in your basic Game of Thrones kind of way, but rather because gasoline is EXPLOSIVE, not flammable. Those sparks in a room full of gasoline fumes would have been very bad for both Nobu and Matt.

 

I must say, this is a difficult show to binge watch, because it keeps leaving me wanting to immediately fire up the next episode, and I need to go to bed dammit.

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Hee, that's true! If it was gasoline they would have exploded. I didn't even think about that.

 

Netflix just eggs you on to keep going with their "next episode plays in 10 seconds" countdown. Heehee.

 

I do recommend resisting the urge to watch the whole thing too fast. I've watched them all and I am sad now because there won't be any more for a long while.

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I watched a few in a row, then decided to pace myself to about 1 a month for the rest. Just saw this episode a few days ago.

 

I think Matt's no kill rule is more of a guideline. He's not going to sacrifice himself so a bug doesn't die or anything. Most of the time, Daredevil is under matched. He has the luxury of keeping the guy he just beat up alive. Nobu would not have accepted being left alive. He was either going to die or kill Daredevil.

 

It's interesting if you think about Fisk vs. Matt. Fisk was the son of a bruiser, a guy who beat up people in and outside of his home. Matt's father was a professional fighter, he beat up people for a living. Daredevil fights people like a boxer, strong, strategic and with the ability to take a beating himself. Fisk fights like a bully, always taking the advantage, having overwhelming force and either avoiding worthy opponents or kicking them when they are down.

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I think Matt's no kill rule is more of a guideline. He's not going to sacrifice himself so a bug doesn't die or anything. Most of the time, Daredevil is under matched. He has the luxury of keeping the guy he just beat up alive. Nobu would not have accepted being left alive. He was either going to die or kill Daredevil.

Yea I sort of see Matt's no kill rule being the same the rules that cops have to abide by. Sure cops can't go around just shooting people who they think might break the law, but there are times in both cases where I think exceptions are allowed and deadly force can be used. 

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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2015 at 10:49 PM, ketose said:

It's interesting if you think about Fisk vs. Matt. Fisk was the son of a bruiser, a guy who beat up people in and outside of his home. Matt's father was a professional fighter, he beat up people for a living. Daredevil fights people like a boxer, strong, strategic and with the ability to take a beating himself. Fisk fights like a bully, always taking the advantage, having overwhelming force and either avoiding worthy opponents or kicking them when they are down.

Yeah Fisk's dad taught him to kick people when they're down - literally.  Finally watching this show.  I've seen Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.  It's been great so far, but I don't see how Matt can take all those beatings.  His only superpower is ultra awareness and reflexes, but his body is just as vulnerable as anyone else's.  Claire can only patch him up so much.  How he gets through the day practicing law after spending a night brawling is beyond me.

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