Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

S02.E07: Valley Forge


Recommended Posts

I can't really condone the number of Americans Simcoe is murdering, but it's kind of cool seeing him walk Terminator-style through the Rebel camp to find Hewlett. Oh, and Hewitt is a total badass. Cutting off his own gangrene then stabbing Simcoe. Hope he makes it back to Setauket.

 

*I can't believe "Setauket" is in spell check.

  • Love 6
Link to comment

Fifty-eight minutes of "woe is me" Washington, followed by that?!? It is so close to being over for me. Are the British writing this show? How in the world did the Americans win the war? Oh, right, it was the spies. Not captured spies. Good spies. Smart spies, who didn't get caught pretending to be a double agent. The real story is compelling enough! How are they going to write themselves out of this hole? That's enough of a hot mess it should melt all the snow from Connecticut to Valley Forge.

  • Love 9
Link to comment
(edited)

I'm finding this show entertaining, but it's diverged from reality to the point where it's gone sprinting past fictionalization straight into fantasy twin peaks-style weirdness. While I watched, I was wondering about the possibility that Washington's dead brother would end his inspirational pep talk by shooting a toy blunderbuss that fired red, white and blue confetti.

 

The obsession with making grounded, pretty Anna into the irresistible femme fatale that inspires all the menfolk's quests has crossed over into parody. I actually laughed when poor Hewlett saw her face in the stars. I preferred it when he was merely talking to his bucket about the constellations as if it were Anna.

 

Old man Woodhull is a spiteful prick. I expect him to confess that his motivation in leaving Abe to rot in prison is that he too is in love with Anna. It's probably why he opposed their youthful romance.

 

I wonder if Mary will turn her back on Abraham and fall in love with Anna?

Edited by yuggapukka
  • Love 9
Link to comment

There is no bloody way that a man can survive for over 2 weeks in the middle of winter with only a blanket to keep you "warm." Just no bloody way. I felt so bad for Hewlett - he did not deserve that treatment but he should not have survived that either. And cutting off of the toes, then running out of the camp into the woods? Dude, most of your toes are gone - you shouldn't be able to walk/hobble as well as you were.

 

Terrible, terrible treatment of people. Same with Abe. I wished he would have punched out his father. Love the actor, hate the character.

 

Love Simcoe though. They can't kill him on the show and he will not die, that I know. Still, love him and his evil ways.

 

Felt so bad for Billy Lee - he's doing his duty, etc, but he showed so well how he was holding back because he knew that no matter Washington saying "no quarter", etc, that he still had to watch his tongue and behaviour, as we saw later when G.W. tried to strangle him. Crazy.

 

Slow episode and Ben and John Andre were sorely missed. And again - poor Hewlett.

  • Love 2
Link to comment
(edited)

Didn’t love this episode. Part of me feels I should, just for the plain fact that they are attempting to create a layered look at Washington, but I may be falling in line with Sarah Bunting here. Ian Kahn looks the part, and has the requisite charisma, but something about the theatricality and inconsistency of his delivery takes me out of the scenes.

Agree with others, I had to laugh at Hewlett and Abe both dreaming of Anna to get through the tough times. Lol, yuggapukka at your scenarios! At least now we know the Abe/Anna scene, which was in the preseason trailer, was only in his mind.

Primitive toe amputation = gross.

So, the meet up in the woods we were teased with between Simcoe and Co. and Ben and Caleb never happened. Figures. I’d wager Simcoe is the most talked about character in the show, but I gots no sympathies to waste on him. Was glad to see him get stabbed, but we all know he’s never going to get punishment equal to that he metes out, and half the audience are pulling for him as it is.

When was the last time we saw Arnold? Like a month ago? Also, almost 2 full episodes with no Ben or Caleb? You’re losing me here, writers. I guess that explains why Seth Numrich had so much time to work on his house.

 

How in the world did the Americans win the war? Oh, right, it was the spies. Not captured spies. Good spies. Smart spies, who didn't get caught pretending to be a double agent. The real story is compelling enough! How are they going to write themselves out of this hole? That's enough of a hot mess it should melt all the snow from Connecticut to Valley Forge.

So, yeah, tell me again why this show added Washington’s Spies to the title? ‘Cause I just don’t see it. This was supposed to be the season where we "see them in action." We’ve pretty much just seen them in stagnant turmoil, which from a dramatic standpoint becomes less effective and less sympathetic as it drags on. Don’t know if this is part of their strategy to create tension in a situation in which the outcome is already known or what, but at this point, I bet many in the audience would mourn the death of almost any of the British characters more so than members of the spy ring. (Man, are these writers fortunate in their actors. With less inherently sympathetic and intelligent actors, the rebel characters could really be in trouble.) I get that this was a low point for the rebels, in reality, but this is a show with roughly 7 hours a season to tell it’s story, and it’s taking too long. I really appreciate the balanced view the show has seemed to be attempting of the two sides -- we even saw it very clearly put out there in this episode with the treatment of the prisoners. So, is it too much to ask that we see some effective work from the rebel spies?! 'Cause true life, they really weren't stooges. UGH.

Two fairly slowly paced episodes in a row, in the middle of the season, doesn’t seem like the smartest of game plans. I hope they have 3 stellar episodes lined up for the finish as last season.

Edited by Kabota
  • Love 3
Link to comment

People need to stop immortalizing Washington. He was NOT a god. He had his faults.

The scene where his teeth all fell out was pretty much correct. If they wanted to be historically accurate, they would show him with no teeth. In the paintings of him, he is never shown smiling. He wore these hideously looking, and probably extremely painful,false teeth. George, the teenager, liked to show off by opening walnuts with his teeth. That is NOT healthy for one's mouth.

His brother's portrayal of his generalship was also accurate. He had a problem with his flanks. He SHOULD have been defeated several times but was saved by luck or bad decisions by British leaders.

...and I am NOT bashing him.

  • Love 4
Link to comment

Good points, John S. I was wondering, when they were going to address the teeth issue with George. I saw a documentary recently about his dentures and his teeth and I thought about Turn. I was uncertain how they would attempt to illustrate that with a person who has teeth. I thought the imagery with them all falling out was horrifying. I was not expecting that.  Why did he lose all of his teeth? I know that the dental techniques and cleaning techniques are not what we have today. 

Link to comment

I don't know the specifics of Washington's situation, but I remember appreciating how they showed tooth decay as the characters aged in the John Adams miniseries. Not pretty, maybe, but definitely realistic detail.

Link to comment
(edited)

This was essentially a bottle episode.
 
I didn't hate it but I did think it was sorely lacking Ben and Caleb.
 
Alexander Rose @AlexRoseWriter 
If I recall, this episode and the last one were actually in reverse order. Had to be rejigged to fit.  @TurnAMC #TurnAMC

 
^That's interesting.
 
I'm starting to think we didn't actually win the war. Simcoe did. He won and has been secretly running our nation since 1783 because the man is obviously immortal. This show should be called 'Cheating Death With Captain Simcoe'. He has 9 lives.
 
Who knew Hewlett has a decent butt? Ah history. I'm learning so much from this show....

 

Tonight makes 2 Nathan Hale references. The only reason my sister is watching this show is because I told her about his name being mentioned in season 1. She's still on the 4th episode of the 1st season.
 
Next week looks good!

Edited by Iboatedhere
  • Love 3
Link to comment
(edited)

This was essentially a bottle episode.

 

Alexander Rose @AlexRoseWriter 

If I recall, this episode and the last one were actually in reverse order. Had to be rejigged to fit.  @TurnAMC #TurnAMC

 

^That's interesting.

I saw that too and wondered about it. Rejigging fit -- always a situation to avoid through good planning when possible.

 

Tonight makes 2 Nathan Hale references.

Wish we'd get one from Ben. The feels. 

 

This show should be called 'Cheating Death With Captain Simcoe'. He has 9 lives.

TURN: Cheating Death With Captain Simcoe

TURN: Sexy, Savvy Kingsmen

Hey, new party game...

Edited by Kabota
  • Love 1
Link to comment

I get that the show wants diversity in its cast -- and I want it too! -- but it simply is implausible that GW would have a relationship like this with his slave. If he were to have a 'let's play whist and think this over' evening, it would have been with his aides. (And hey, where's that red-headed bastard Hamilton? He should totally be here!) Which is not to say that William Lee wasn't smart, but it really was wildly unusual for a slave to be able to read.  The impulse to rewrite history in such a way as to show American slavery as, 'you know, not all that bad, they sat around playing cards with their bosses, no biggie' rankles me in an extremely deep way.

  • Love 3
Link to comment

I get that the show wants diversity in its cast -- and I want it too! -- but it simply is implausible that GW would have a relationship like this with his slave. If he were to have a 'let's play whist and think this over' evening, it would have been with his aides. (And hey, where's that red-headed bastard Hamilton? He should totally be here!)

 

Or Martha.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
How in the world did the Americans win the war?

 

I'm reading How the British Lost America. Really interesting book. Just as we learned in HS that not everyone in the States were pro independence, not everyone in England or the Parliament wanted to keep the America.

 

An hour of a GW soliloquy was annoying.

Link to comment

I get that the show wants diversity in its cast -- and I want it too! -- but it simply is implausible that GW would have a relationship like this with his slave. If he were to have a 'let's play whist and think this over' evening, it would have been with his aides. (And hey, where's that red-headed bastard Hamilton? He should totally be here!) Which is not to say that William Lee wasn't smart, but it really was wildly unusual for a slave to be able to read.  The impulse to rewrite history in such a way as to show American slavery as, 'you know, not all that bad, they sat around playing cards with their bosses, no biggie' rankles me in an extremely deep way.

 

Totally agree. They are portraying those who were slaves in such a way to make it seem like it wasn't that bad. I think historically John Andre DID not mistreat his servants and the British were pretty much anti-slavery for the most part at that point. But they are "white washing" it, and also "US-washing" it, by this I mean how - as John S said - that Washington is being portrayed as a god or can do no wrong.

 

They are showing him losing his teeth, but are they going to show the audience where his dentures came from??? I bet not. For those who don't know (I know most of you do though), Washington's fake choppers were metal, springloaded and the individual teeth themselves?? Pulled/taken from slaves. Doubt they will show that.

 

Interesting that they swapped the airing order. I assumed that most of these episodes were filmed earlier so swapped the air order seems weird, as both episodes should have been on deck.

 

Missed Ben and Caleb.

 

I'm starting to think we didn't actually win the war. Simcoe did. He won and has been secretly running our nation since 1783 because the man is obviously immortal. This show should be called 'Cheating Death With Captain Simcoe'. He has 9 lives.

 

LOL. Hell yeah. Don't mess with Simcoe!! I just don't know where they are going to take this, because at some point, Hewlett has got to come after Simcoe to retaliate, but in real life,

Simcoe continues on with the British Amry for many years, rises up the ranks a little, ends up establishing York (Toronto), and eventually gets seriously ill, resigns and lives out his life without any repercussions from the Crown.

 

So in the show, they can't really punish Simcoe or throw him in jail or anything I would think. *shrug*

Link to comment

I thought that was a rather strange episode.

 

I understand that they are trying to show George Washington as a person -- a man -- and not a god.  But I felt that this episode -- as yuggapukka said -- went in a rather bizarre direction.  Do we know if George Washington ever had a such an experience in his life? 

 

I'm fairly well-acquainted with this period and our Founding Fathers.  I read a lot about it, visit historic sites, et cetera.  I've even been a docent at an historic site. And I know Washington was a man and not a god.  But his behavior in last night's episode -- including his turning on William and almost strangling him -- just seemed so bizarre.

 

I felt that the episode was really rather over the top -- not just the Washington scenes, but those with Hewlett and Simcoe, too.  It didn't fit -- to me, anyway -- the more realistic tone of the series as a whole.

 

So Alexander Rose is saying that this episode was meant to be after what is now next week's episode?  And that they had to re-cut it/re-film things to make it fit for this week?  Is that what he means by "rejigged"?

Link to comment
(edited)

So Alexander Rose is saying that this episode was meant to be after what is now next week's episode?  And that they had to re-cut it/re-film things to make it fit for this week?  Is that what he means by "rejigged"?

 

I think he means that this episode and last weeks episode were originally switched. So this one was supposed to be last week.

 

I almost forgot how dickish Simcoe was when he told Hewlett that his toes looked like an oyster. Go for the jugular next time, Edmund!

 

 

*edited because I'm totally confusing myself. Trying to figure out how they "rejigged" this episode is like trying to figure out time travel.

Edited by Iboatedhere
Link to comment

That was my first thought, too, iboatedhere.

 

But then I confused myself, too, trying to figure out how that would have worked.  I mean, last week, we saw Anna trying to charm Simcoe into rescuing Hewlett.  This week, Simcoe goes after Hewlett.  If that episode came after last night, it wouldn't have made sense in terms of the timeline.  Anna wouldn't have been able to have that scene with Hewlett if last week's episode followed this one.

 

So I'm confused, too.

Link to comment

I worked myself into a headache trying to figure it out.

 

It makes sense from a Ben/Caleb storyline. If they left for Connecticut to rescue Hewlett in the last episode I would think they would be arriving in CT in the next episode. (Which would be next weeks episode////headache intensifies)

 

But the whole Simcoe thing doesn't make sense. Unless they re-shot A TON of footage. Maybe that's why Valley Forge was so absent last episode. They had to fill it up with Setauket.

 

Alexander Rose did say "If I recall..." So maybe he recalled wrong and we're getting all twisted up for nothing.

Link to comment
(edited)

http://edit.mountvernon.org/george-washington/the-man-the-myth/the-trouble-with-teeth/   Truth and fiction about the teeth. It looks like he did buy teeth from African Americans - but beyond that, the usage and context is unclear. Apparently, purchasing teeth was common for wealthy people at the time.

 

I agree with everyone's thoughts on this episode - it would be way too much to quote all. Definitely disappointed in the episode. Greatly missing Ben and Caleb and actual spy action. Time to start showing them doing a good job.

Edited by VMepicgrl
Link to comment

That was my first thought, too, iboatedhere.

 

But then I confused myself, too, trying to figure out how that would have worked.  I mean, last week, we saw Anna trying to charm Simcoe into rescuing Hewlett.  This week, Simcoe goes after Hewlett.  If that episode came after last night, it wouldn't have made sense in terms of the timeline.  Anna wouldn't have been able to have that scene with Hewlett if last week's episode followed this one.

Well that's what he means by "rejigged". The had to re-edit both episodes to move key scenes from one episode to the other to get in everything in the right chronological order for airing. They did not need to reshoot scenes because they had enough material for two full episodes, just rearrange what they already had.

  • Love 1
Link to comment

Well that's what he means by "rejigged". The had to re-edit both episodes to move key scenes from one episode to the other to get in everything in the right chronological order for airing. They did not need to reshoot scenes because they had enough material for two full episodes, just rearrange what they already had.

 

That makes a lot more sense.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
(edited)

 

I understand that they are trying to show George Washington as a person -- a man -- and not a god.  But I felt that this episode -- as yuggapukka said -- went in a rather bizarre direction.  Do we know if George Washington ever had a such an experience in his life? 

 

I'm fairly well-acquainted with this period and our Founding Fathers.  I read a lot about it, visit historic sites, et cetera.  I've even been a docent at an historic site. And I know Washington was a man and not a god.  But his behavior in last night's episode -- including his turning on William and almost strangling him -- just seemed so bizarre.

 

Ditto regarding the episode, but I thought that it was because I was doing grading and not paying attention enough. I thought that George's food was poisoned or something of that nature and that was the reason that he was hallucinating. Does anyone know if George really was as self-conflicted like this? I know that Lincoln struggled mightily with engaging in the civil war and after his son died he was very depressed. 

 

Edited to add: I saw a recent episode of Brad Meltzer's Lost Histroy (he tries to find or shed light on American artifacts that have been stolen or lost) anyway, a set of Washington's fake teeth had been stolen out of their holding receptacle in the Smithsonian (or some other museum).  The museum expert had indicated that this set was made with real teeth and that the teeth were often obtained from corpses. However, I could be remembering incorrectly and maybe they did not want to say that they got teeth from slaves. I would have to watch the episode again, but I think that is what they said regarding corpses. Either way, it must have sucked to lose all your teeth back then, but it almost seems like a given for some people based on a variety of factors. 

Edited by riverheightsnancy
Link to comment

It's realistic enough, I guess, but the problem for me is twofold: 1) the show is not about Washington, it's about his spies, and if it's NOT going to show spying, I really don't give a shit, and 2) Ian Kahn is really not good as Washington. I don't have any issue with the show making him more human than myth, but he's the second-most written-about president. We really don't need that done for us at this late date. We all know he was merely a man. The show's not about his human frailty, and why you'd give that issue an hour when Andre exists is simply beyond me.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
Does anyone know if George really was as self-conflicted like this?

 

He was not. He was thoughtful/careful about decisions, but he didn't doubt himself. Not a god, but certainly a badass. (imo) (you don't have to take my word for it, either -- they saved what he wrote down.)

  • Love 1
Link to comment
(edited)

http://edit.mountvernon.org/george-washington/the-man-the-myth/the-trouble-with-teeth/  

 

Washington bought human teeth from African-Americans
Deep within one of Washington’s account books is an entry which details Washington’s purchase of 9 teeth from “Negroes” for 122 shillings. It’s not clear if Washington intend to use these teeth as implants or within a new set of dentures or if he employed the teeth at all. While this transaction might seem morbid to a modern audience, purchasing human teeth was a fairly common practice in the 18th century for affluent individuals.

 

I agree with everyone's thoughts on this episode - it would be way too much to quote all. Definitely disappointed in the episode. Greatly missing Ben and Caleb and actual spy action. Time to start showing them doing a good job.

 

*Oops. Sorry for the double-ish post.

Edited by VMepicgrl
Link to comment

My, my, my that was dark.

Hewlett, you BAMF. That was some tough stuff right there. Chopping off one's own toes & then having enough about you to attack the dastardly Simcoe who had the temerity to refer to your lopped off toes as oysters. Ugh, Simcoe. I don't want them to kill you off but I want you to die.

 

Missed Andre, Ben & Caleb. This episode needed at least a shot of the pretty Andre & Ben have to offer. Not too much, if at all, was very nice to look at...

 

Oh, Abe. Think of your wife & kid when you are locked up -- not your side piece -- that's not even your side piece anymore. There's something about Anna... Glad Hewlett had her & his constellations to think of... I like that Redcoat & I hope he makes it back to Setauket -- & back across the pond or whatever when all is said & done for the show -- whenever that is.

 

Richard is a terrible father & person.

 

I will stick it out with this show, but I'm ready for the Patriots to start kicking some a**. I'm DAR so that's the only thing I won't cede to creative license. Let's get a move on gentlemen & ladies.

  • Love 4
Link to comment

Been watching this season and was glad they had started to "turn" around a bit from the stupid non-spying first season.  Still hate selfish Abe but at least my love for Simcoe increases.  But this episode?  Washington playing Hamlet in The Twilight Zone as the clock ... err, watch, ticks to High Noon for Hewlett?  Total bizarro world but not in a good way.  (I always found Washington over praised and boring.  Benedict Arnold's victory at Saratoga saved his bacon and he never stood up for the guy and the rest is history as they say).

 

People who have remained true to themselves in this series:  Ben, Andre, Hewlett, Caleb, Mary.

People who screw over other people: Simcoe (in a delightful way that is true to his roguish self at least) and Whining Abe (in the worst father/husband of the year non-award winning way).  Also Anna who kicked her hero husband to the curb for Whining Abe who no other woman on the planet earth would want except true blue Mary.

 

I felt sorry for both Hewlett and the prisoner that tried to throw Abe under the buggy by telling the truth about him.  That guy at least did what he did because he was sick with fear what would happen to his 11 year old daughter with him not there to defend her from lewd redcoats.  Abe doesn't even care he has a kid at home.

 

Simcoe coming into camp like the original pilot's Headless Horseman from Sleepy Hollow was awesome.  I expected him to throw away his bayonet and pick up an AK-47 at any moment.  Simcoe's more bad-ass better than Darth Vader and he does it all without a decent light saber.

 

Funny  I always disagree that a villain is more interesting than a hero because making a hero good is hard to do and good does indeed exist in this world too.  And I like good better than bad.  But when series top seeded Abe is your flawed hero and Simcoe is your top villain?  Well in this series I root for the villain.  First time ever too.

  • Love 2
Link to comment

"I always found Washington over praised and boring. Benedict Arnold's victory at Saratoga saved his bacon and he never stood up for the guy and the rest is history as they say"

Love this.

Hey, remember on early Buffy when Giles used to get K'd the FO in like every episode? Anyone else wish that would start happening to GW? "And now forsooth I must prate with beetled brow in the general direc -- [womp!] OW. [collapses]"

  • Love 1
Link to comment

Villains are necessary to test heroes. However, I prefer when villains are equally matched. Too many of the superhero type shows have an overly moustache twirling super villain who doesn't lose until the last episode of the season. It's nice to see Simcoe meet consequences once in a while.

Link to comment

With this show though, the so-called "villians" are not too bad. I assume we are supposed to be rooting for Abe, GW, Ben, Caleb and company. I root for Caleb and Ben, but I'm also partial and rooting for Andre, Hewlett and Simcoe, who are "supposed" to be the baddies, so to speak. Go figure.

 

Also, at least in A. Rose's book, Abe Woodhull was never captured nor spend any length of time in prison. So Abe's long term imprisonment is for show drama. But yeah, Abe, start thinking of a way to get out for now and think of your family. Worry about Anna later.

 

And Pa Woodhull is an ass.

Link to comment

I get that the show wants diversity in its cast -- and I want it too! -- but it simply is implausible that GW would have a relationship like this with his slave. If he were to have a 'let's play whist and think this over' evening, it would have been with his aides.

This is like Peggy Shippen discussing her love life with the slave Abigail and telling her to "call me Peggy." Total codswallop.

I have read many, many books about the American Revolution and GW, and I admire Washington greatly. I think it is the vogue now for people to underrate him. He knew how to surround himself with good people and inspired great loyalty.

I wonder why they decided to give the Simcoe character the name of a real person who survived the war. Takes a lot of the suspense out of the story.

  • Love 1
Link to comment

WTF did I just watch? Only THREE more episodes to go (possibly for the entire series), and we get THIS?

54 minutes of Angst!Washington??? At one point, when he uttered the words, "This is ridiculous," I was thinking, MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!!!

 

I don't have a problem with Ian Kahn's acting. I can understand him fine. But this episode proves that some characters are better as supporting characters (a la Glee's Brittany). I think Washington is handsome, too, but we only need him in small doses. Definitely not 54 minutes of him.

 

Hewlett has become my favorite character on the show, so I really don't want him to die. Simcoe needs to suffer to have put Hewlett in such a predicament. 

 

If the show doesn't pick up its pace plot-wise, I don't think there will be a third season. Seriously, show, it's not too late to transform the show into a true spy adventure. And bring back the pretty boys, will ya?

  • Love 1
Link to comment
(edited)

I don't have a problem with portraying and unstable Washington. He's barely holding on. He's already admitted that previously.

 

People need to stop immortalizing Washington. He was NOT a god. He had his faults.
The scene where his teeth all fell out was pretty much correct.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've had the dream where all your teeth fall out. It's *terrifying.* I woke up in so much sweat I thought I peed the bed. I thought that was a really cool scene. I can't imagine Washington didn't have personal moments of doubt. Especially during Valley Forge. There was no more money to pay any of the soldiers, and they were deserting left and right. He's not going to show his problems to the other officers, so you'd create this show with him voicing that to his slave. Even if Washington didn't voice this aloud irl, you can't have the tv character doing an inner monologue for 35 minutes. 

 

This was supposed to be the season where we "see them in action."

 

I stay away from social media prior to shows I watch. Because TPTBs LIE. All the time. I had no preconceived notions going into the season. I don't have any problem with this season, as a result. Abe is a bad spy who got some useful intelligence. He really really screwed up, but if it wasn't for Simcoe, Hewlitt would have vouched for him. We did see Caleb being effective, and Anna was useful in communicating that Abe was caught.

 

I think being in prison for so long is going to forge Abe into Culper for real. He's basically done with his father. I mean, really, you wait till now for a visit? You want to see if I learned my lesson? I really liked that scene because Abe kept his back to him for the most part.

 

I mean, the show isn't meant to be a documentary. If Washington was so conflicted, he probably wasn't going to let that on to the officers et al. I'm surprised after all this that he'd even remotely want to be president. I'd be like drinking my bourbon on Mount Vernon. I did my part. 

 

With this show though, the so-called "villians" are not too bad.

 

I would say TPTB are doing their job then: Who are the villians? That's kind of the point of good drama. Hewlitt talked about a different life for himself had there not been this war. Andre is a talented person, but because of class issues, he couldn't rise above his station unless he joined the military. The guy that quartered in Abe's house last season was decent enough. But he got killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think that's a big part of what the show is about. 

 

Also, at least in A. Rose's book, Abe Woodhull was never captured nor spend any length of time in prison. So Abe's long term imprisonment is for show drama.

I know history isn't a spoiler, but clearly there are liberties taken in creating a tv show. I would respectfully request that book talk be in its own dedicated thread, and the episode thread be focused on the show exclusively. This is a common practice here for Game of Thrones, and Outlander, so I think this is a reasonable request. 

Edited by HalcyonDays
Added spoiler tags
  • Love 1
Link to comment
I know history isn't a spoiler, but clearly there are liberties taken in creating a tv show. I would respectfully request that book talk be in its own dedicated thread, and the episode thread be focused on the show exclusively.

 

As you wish! For now, mention of book stuff is now spoiler-tagged in this thread. You are correct. My bad, ganesh. The thing is that we don't get nowhere near the volume of posts that Outlander and GoT's does, and I'm not sure many have read the book, so not sure we would get many posts in any thread. We just do not have the volume to require an individual thread with book talk and without book talk for each episode that airs. Too much clutter.

 

So for now - in the episode threads - we'll spoiler tag book talk! If traffic picks up, and there is a season three, then I'll reconsider. As mentioned, there are only three episodes left.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one. I've had the dream where all your teeth fall out. It's *terrifying.* I woke up in so much sweat I thought I peed the bed. I thought that was a really cool scene. I can't imagine Washington didn't have personal moments of doubt.

 

I've had this dream many times too, and apparently according to those dream analysis people, it apparently is supposed to indicate the person is experiencing a high level of anxiety. Like, something is weighing heavily on their mind and causing them stress (aka anxiety). So it's appropriate to Washington, with the added bonus of mirroring the fact that his teeth really were in bad shape - fell out.

 

If the show doesn't pick up its pace plot-wise, I don't think there will be a third season. Seriously, show, it's not too late to transform the show into a true spy adventure. And bring back the pretty boys, will ya?

 

I don't think there will be a third season neither. The move to Monday's actually hurt the show in ratings, even though this season is much better. They did it bcause of Mad Men, but still. It was getting over a 1 million viewers (a 0.8 - 1.0 demo range) last season. This episode got 0.76 million viewers and a 0.2 demo. Yikes.

 

Which is really unfortunately because so many of the actors I love, and it is a good show. But when AMC's The Walking Dead is pulling 12-14 million and demo's in the 3 or 4 range, and Mad Men is pulling a 1.1 and 3.4 million, well, you know what will be cut. The Mad Men numbers are not that good, but they did hurt the show by the long LONG gap between seasons, I think.

Link to comment

There's a song sung in the background of the flashback with Lawrence dying that reminded me I like how the show included songs of the time in the first season. Agree with ganesh that the show succeeds with asking who is the villain. Turn can only succeed when the actors get to show instead of tell (that has happened at some point right?). Appreciated the soldiers loading up the dead bodies at VF and Abe's eyes holding back tears after his father has gone. History dramas have to succeed on their own as a believable story. Bonus is getting audience invested enough to be curious to go look up more about the actual events. Will miss this cast if no season 3!

Link to comment

Finally watched it last night.  I tried for a couple of evenings, but had other stuff going on and the rambling crazy was not enough to hold my attention.  So...the rambling crazy - can we not do that again?  Lovedlovedloved Simcoe sauntering through the place like a boss and equally loved Hewlett losing his shit and stabbing the bastard.  :D  Especially since there is NO WAY this show is going to be stupid enough to get rid of Simcoe, and they'd better not be stupid enough to get rid of Hewlett either. Lose those two and I'm done, because most of the "good guys" give me a pain in the ass. 

Link to comment
(edited)

There's a song sung in the background of the flashback with Lawrence dying that reminded me I like how the show included songs of the time in the first season.

I've missed the songs, too. I can only think of one other this season, maybe at the end of ep. 3?

Edited by Kabota
Link to comment

There's a song sung in the background of the flashback with Lawrence dying that reminded me I like how the show included songs of the time in the first season. Agree with ganesh that the show succeeds with asking who is the villain. Turn can only succeed when the actors get to show instead of tell (that has happened at some point right?). Appreciated the soldiers loading up the dead bodies at VF and Abe's eyes holding back tears after his father has gone. History dramas have to succeed on their own as a believable story. Bonus is getting audience invested enough to be curious to go look up more about the actual events. Will miss this cast if no season 3!

This is the main reason I am concerned that there will likely not be a season 3. Especially, (I admit) Seth Numrich, but I will miss the ensemble altogether as well. Many of them are relative unknowns and/or more prevalent in the theater scene, but I've enjoyed getting to see them in the TV medium and will miss having that chance. Not sure how likely they are to get another big role (possibly by choice if not just how the TV world works).

Link to comment
So in the show, they can't really punish Simcoe or throw him in jail or anything I would think. *shrug*

 

Well, they killed Sackett years before his actual death, so IMO pretty much anyone is up for grabs, except Washington.  That said, they won't kill off Simcoe because he's such a great villain.

 

Hewlett looks so different without his wig.  Unfortunately for the patriots, I have a feeling that this "experience" with them is going to harden Major Hewlett's heart significantly more against them.  If he ever returns to his former post, he will no longer be the 'soft and cuddly' Major Hewlett anymore.

 

Abe is such an idiot.  His father was going to get him released until he had to go on and on about Anna.  I really get sick over the one female character who must have a magic vajayjay that every man just has to have her.

Link to comment
(edited)

No, I think the Judge wanted Abe to be like, "Yes, father, I've learned my lesson father." It probably was a mistake for Abe to go on about Anna, but in part it was legit because she's the spy in the region now and the only way they can communicate to Valley Forge. By asking if she's ok, he's trying to confirm that she was able to get word to them about his plight. 

 

The Judge doesn't have the moral authority over any of them anymore, and Abe, Anna, Mrs Abe, et al., have all called him on it. I find it rather telling that Abe would rather stay in the cell than cowtow to daddy anymore. 

Edited by ganesh
  • Love 2
Link to comment

 

But they are "white washing" it, and also "US-washing" it, by this I mean how - as John S said - that Washington is being portrayed as a god or can do no wrong.

 

Really? My husband and I feel the show is going out of its way to portray GWash as a very flawed man.  All this stuff about his depression, seeing visions of his brother, the Sackett murder is not in the book.  We don't understand why the writers/producers feel they have to alter the story from the book so much. Why make Simcoe such an evil cartoonish character?  Why did they add this made-up romance between Abe and Anna Strong?  As someone said upthread, are the British writing this show?  How on earth did we win this war indeed?  Unlike Sarah Bunting, I don't mind the actor's portrayal of GWash.  I think he's doing the best he can with truly bad material.  And like others who've posted here, I love historical dramas, but if I don't get more of Talmadge, Caleb, and Andre and some "spying" soon, I'm out!

 

 

Link to comment

Sooo, I finally caught up on viewing and all I can say is that I really disliked this and last week's episode ..... the show does really well when it sticks to spy/war story lines .... not so much the family drama and soap opera plots.  

 

I DID like seeing Washington struggle with his decision though it was a bit dragged out for my taste.

 

I did NOT like both Hewlett and Woodhall using Anna as their motive for survival.

 

What is Simcoe's game ..... he went from a complex character to a cartoon ...... so sad.

 

Show, this episode (and number six) are everything that was wrong with season one .,.... stop it and get back to what made the first five episodes work .... spying and war stories.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
Really? My husband and I feel the show is going out of its way to portray GWash as a very flawed man.  All this stuff about his depression, seeing visions of his brother, the Sackett murder is not in the book.

 

lark37, I'm going to answer your post in this thread, so as to not intro book spoilers into this thread.

Link to comment
×
×
  • Create New...