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Just now, shapeshifter said:

In a lot of cases the lack of affordable childcare literally makes it not worth working.

Or the stress of constant Covid scares where you get to  pull your kid out of daycare or school to be tested because they have the sniffles or because another child has tested positive for Covid so now all the kids in the class have been exposed just gets to be too much.  One of my colleagues has ended up taking unpaid leave now because she's used up all her vacation and sick days and she just couldn't deal with the Covid scares between one child in daycare and the other in school.

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17 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

In a lot of cases the lack of affordable childcare literally makes it not worth working.

I've heard this a lot. I don't share this with people in my personal life because I'm in my 30s and I feel like they'd just say "you better hop to it!" But I'd really like to have kids. My job is currently work form home. The pay isn't the best, but it's flexible, low stress, and I know some parents would say, yeah right, but I think I could juggle kids with this gig. Family and friends encourage me to pursue more lucrative things. I keep my options open, but I'm not an extreme person. I don't judge folks who do either, but I find being a SAHM who relies on the husband 100% for money to be scary. I also wouldn't trust strangers to help raise my kids, or even family for that matter. I feel like I should keep my job and continue to have side hustles. I don't need to be rich, I just want a good quality of life, which I am able to sustain right now. 

24 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I just can’t imagine having to work at 64 or after 65.  I wouldn’t have the stamina anymore, especially if you’re not used to it.  After three kids, I was wiped out and worked part time only.  Even if you don’t have kids, women seem to do more, and start to have ailments.  More so than men.

I've heard different things. I've read women do more at the house even if they work just as many hours as men in an office. I personally also think it takes more energy being a woman and getting ready each day. I really envy that men can just shower and go. But men do die earlier, so I think they have their own stress. 

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Ok I am sincerely baffled: does anyone know why there's currently a bit of a social media craze about smearing your "moon blood" all over your face and body? Like, what's it supposed to do?

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2 hours ago, SusannahM said:

But that's exactly the thing - better than nothing still shouldn't mean that people are blissfully staying out of the workforce because pandemic related EI is too generous and that's what some of the pundits, at least here in Canada, are insisting is happening.  EI isn't enough for anyone to live on, it's what you get to help make ends meet (barely) until you get a job.  If jobs are going unfilled there's more to it then people living it up on pandemic benefits.

I'm getting $120 a week on unemployment, which is definitely not enough for anyone to live on.  My husband wasn't paying me that much, LOL.  It was only a part time job.  I think some people are taking on 2 and 3 gig jobs.  I met delivery people who tell me they work part time for Instacart, Door Dash, Amazon, Uber and others.  How they manage to do all that I don't know, but I think some of them work long hours.  Years ago my husband had about 3 jobs at one time.  He managed an auto shop on the weekdays, photographed weddings on the weekends and delivered papers in the early mornings.  It can be done.  Also I know at least 2 people that are working off the books as handymen while collecting unemployment benefits.  Not 100% ethical, but people are doing what they have to do to survive.  Not a pretty life, though, and they're definitely not living it up on unemployment benefits either!  

What I think is happening is that people are actually happier being their own boss to some degree and are willing to live on less in order not to have to take the abuse of working for a boss.  I am an eBay seller and this is the first time in my life I know what it's like to be my own boss.  And I love it.  When my husband started his limo. business he loved it too and never wanted to go back to work in a dealership again.  He got laid off from that in the 2009 recession and never looked back.  BTW, they laid him and all the other older employees off to hire young people at lower salaries.  Now he has a boss again but the has known this man for many years and he's a sweetheart.  

Edited by Yeah No · Reason: Ugh, double post.
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1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:
2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I just can’t imagine having to work at 64 or after 65.  I wouldn’t have the stamina anymore, especially if you’re not used to it.  After three kids, I was wiped out and worked part time only.  Even if you don’t have kids, women seem to do more, and start to have ailments.  More so than men.

I've heard different things. I've read women do more at the house even if they work just as many hours as men in an office. I personally also think it takes more energy being a woman and getting ready each day. I really envy that men can just shower and go. But men do die earlier, so I think they have their own stress. 

Thank you, both of you.  I am literally crying after reading this!  Someone gets it!  I don't have the stamina to work in what has become a highly stressful occupation anymore.  No way.  My husband understands that.  The problem is that it's not as simple as to go get something that pays less.  Often the least paid jobs come with the most stress, abuse and hard work.  And at my age of 63 with all I have going on in my gut these days I couldn't handle it. 

Besides, what with age discrimination being a very REAL thing, it's no wonder I haven't gotten a job.  For a long time I really wanted one and despite many interviews that IMO went very well, I was never hired.  I was even told by one HR woman recently that I "had a little more experience than the person they usually hire for this type of position".  I am not stupid, I know that translated into:  "You are a little older than the person they usually hire".  She was actually on my side, though.  She chose my resume and had a Zoom call with me, but then told me the above and that she'd have to "sell" me to the managers.  Of course I never heard from her again.

I hear you about men showering and going, LOL.  The older I get it seems the longer it takes to look presentable.  And I don't like to cut corners either!   Then because I am at home now I do more of everything at home.  More of the housework than I used to do.  He is working so it is supposedly more of an equal division of labor.  But I often feel like I do more anyway.  I just spent the whole day doing hard labor in the house and now I'm going to make dinner.  I'm the cook in the family so that falls on me too.  He does do some of the hard housework like mopping and vacuuming, but he doesn't get the workout I get on a daily basis either.  Tomorrow I will be out doing holiday shopping and groceries.  It never ends!  I kvetch but it still beats working in those high stress/underpaid jobs!

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3 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I don't know,  I work retail and we have stores in Houston who have been looking for help for a while. We do not pay the highest salary but we are not just paying minimum wage either. We are a small company and cannot start people out at 15 dollars an hour. It is truly an easy job. No late hours and most of the customers are nice. I mean people are not even responding to the Indeed.com postings.

I wouldn't work in the midst of a pandemic where the job required me to be indoors with random people all day based on my personal comfort level with exposure risk (especially since my mom, who I see weekly, is immunocompromised).  If people can make enough money to live on in a safer way, I understand why a job like that would take a while to fill, especially given the pay.

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I've read women do more at the house even if they work just as many hours as men in an office.

By leaps and bounds.  Still.  All these years after Arlie Hochschild and Anne Machung published The Second Shift, there hasn't been much progress on that front.  And we slid backwards on some of the progress made when kids had to do school at home due to the pandemic; the extra burden fell, and still falls, largely on women.

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6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think part of the problem with the young people is that they were set up to believe that if they went to college they would get a good paying job with good benefits.  Now that so many more of them go to college their expectations are higher than the reality they face after graduation.  A lot of the jobs that they find don't pay enough to live very well.  So faced with that who would want to knock themselves out for not that much in return?  I don't blame them.

Bingo. And then there's those of us who didn't go to college and that limits the amount and types of jobs we can get, too. It's the age old vicious, "Can't get a job without experience and training, but you can't get the experience and training without getting a job." cycle. I'm looking for work and going through that very issue right now, and it's incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. Especially the longer the job search goes on - after a time you get tired of applying again and again and again and again only to be rejected or not hear anything again and again and again and again. 

But yeah, the Great Recession really did a number on young people's prospects for theri future. That's why so many young people are moving back home with their parents, and aren't buying homes, because they can't afford such things. That's why they're struggling to find stable work. That's why so many are putting off starting families. And so on and so forth. There's not the stability there used to be. Add in the fact that so many jobs are becoming automated and that factors in as well - why bother applying for a job that's likely going to be automated in the near future, if it isn't already on its way to that?

And yeah, with retail, you have to deal with enough crappy customers in normal times. In the midst of a pandemic, where you're likely to get those customers who will throw hissy fits over being asked to wear a mask inside the store or harass and threaten people who are wearing masks and whatnot? Yeah, I wouldn't want to deal with that nonsense, either. It's too dangerous and risky. 

Edited by Annber03
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54 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I wouldn't work in the midst of a pandemic where the job required me to be indoors with random people all day based on my personal comfort level with exposure risk (especially since my mom, who I see weekly, is immunocompromised).  If people can make enough money to live on in a safer way, I understand why a job like that would take a while to fill, especially given the pay.

A close friend was offered her usual seasonal position at Indigo (chain of bookstores here in Canada) and was really excited about taking it and then had a long think about it.  Increased exposure to Covid when she is the essential caregiver to an elderly mother who is being treated for breast cancer.  I guess some would say she should have taken the job anyway but IMO I think she made the right decision when she turned them down.

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6 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

Snowing like crazy in Michigan right now.  Pretty.

Lucky you. I want snow :(. We had some snow showers a couple weeks ago, but they were very light and didn't really cause much accumulation. But that's been about it thus far. 

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47 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Lucky you. I want snow :(. We had some snow showers a couple weeks ago, but they were very light and didn't really cause much accumulation. But that's been about it thus far. 

It was on the PSU/Michigan football game.  I’m on Long Island.  I do love snow too tho. 😀

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3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Bingo. And then there's those of us who didn't go to college and that limits the amount and types of jobs we can get, too. It's the age old vicious, "Can't get a job without experience and training, but you can't get the experience and training without getting a job." cycle. I'm looking for work and going through that very issue right now, and it's incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. Especially the longer the job search goes on - after a time you get tired of applying again and again and again and again only to be rejected or not hear anything again and again and again and again. 

But yeah, the Great Recession really did a number on young people's prospects for theri future. That's why so many young people are moving back home with their parents, and aren't buying homes, because they can't afford such things. That's why they're struggling to find stable work. That's why so many are putting off starting families. And so on and so forth. There's not the stability there used to be. Add in the fact that so many jobs are becoming automated and that factors in as well - why bother applying for a job that's likely going to be automated in the near future, if it isn't already on its way to that?

I went to college (and am back in school now), but I feel the experience catch-22. I’m looking to change careers but before you can get a job in my chosen field, you have to apply with a portfolio and you’re expected to either come up with your own projects or do volunteer work to get them. You also have to download free trials to learn the software in the field and understand the theory behind the work we do. I am willing to do the work—it’s not that—but it sucks to go to school and then find out you still have a long way to go to make a decent income in your career path.

I was a 2008 graduate with an ill-advised college major (journalism; I chose it but everyone in my circle as far as my family and teachers told me it was a good choice) and I started to regret it in the last semester of my senior year. Sigh. Of course by then it was too late to do anything about it. These days there are so many people applying for jobs and trying to stand out, and employers just don’t seem to want to take a chance on someone with potential. You’re already expected to come to them with a lot of internships and perfect references and a full slate of skills. 

I’ve already put in almost 30 applications and I know I need to keep at it, but I feel blah with every “we went with another candidate” automated email I get. 

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5 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Thank you, both of you.  I am literally crying after reading this!  Someone gets it!  I don't have the stamina to work in what has become a highly stressful occupation anymore.  No way.  My husband understands that.  The problem is that it's not as simple as to go get something that pays less.  Often the least paid jobs come with the most stress, abuse and hard work.  And at my age of 63 with all I have going on in my gut these days I couldn't handle it. 

Besides, what with age discrimination being a very REAL thing, it's no wonder I haven't gotten a job.  For a long time I really wanted one and despite many interviews that IMO went very well, I was never hired.  I was even told by one HR woman recently that I "had a little more experience than the person they usually hire for this type of position".  I am not stupid, I know that translated into:  "You are a little older than the person they usually hire".  She was actually on my side, though.  She chose my resume and had a Zoom call with me, but then told me the above and that she'd have to "sell" me to the managers.  Of course I never heard from her again.

I hear you about men showering and going, LOL.  The older I get it seems the longer it takes to look presentable.  And I don't like to cut corners either!   Then because I am at home now I do more of everything at home.  More of the housework than I used to do.  He is working so it is supposedly more of an equal division of labor.  But I often feel like I do more anyway.  I just spent the whole day doing hard labor in the house and now I'm going to make dinner.  I'm the cook in the family so that falls on me too.  He does do some of the hard housework like mopping and vacuuming, but he doesn't get the workout I get on a daily basis either.  Tomorrow I will be out doing holiday shopping and groceries.  It never ends!  I kvetch but it still beats working in those high stress/underpaid jobs!

Aw * hug* I know. 

My mother is about the same age as you. She was a SAHM when my sister and I were young. Once we were both grown she started working again. She worked for awhile but then got very serious health issues. She can no longer work most jobs. She can't be on her feet. She doesn't have the degree many jobs require, and she feels she can't just start over at her age. I don't blame her. Her retirement isn't a lot and while my father isn't rich, he makes a pretty good income. My mother was supposed to inherit millions, but she has siblings who are after her inheritance. Whole other story there, but yeah, she can't seem to catch a break. Luckily my mother enjoys the simple things in life. After all her health issues, she's just grateful to be alive. I guess that is catching a break many don't get. :)

For sure! I think being a homemaker is a wonderful thing if you can manage it. It just depends on what makes you happy. Some people find job stress worth it if they want to travel and whatnot. But some people are perfectly happy enjoying the simple things, maybe sharing a car with their spouse, and getting to be at home. Honestly, it's sad how much of our lives are spent at work. I'm very grateful I'm able to work from home now. I see my family much more than I used to. 

If you do want to work again, keep hope alive! I worked stressful jobs for years until I found something that wasn't, which is why I bs on here so much. lol I also have friends older than me who looked and looked for jobs and promotions and finally found things. :)

I hope you get credit for all you do honey. My dad really appreciates my mom for working hard around the house even though she no longer works outside of the home. 

Edited by RealHousewife
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3 hours ago, kristen111 said:

It was on the PSU/Michigan football game.  I’m on Long Island.  I do love snow too tho. 😀

How was the Penn State team able to find each other? They blended in with the snow 😜

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5 hours ago, Bastet said:
7 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I've read women do more at the house even if they work just as many hours as men in an office.

By leaps and bounds.  Still.  All these years after Arlie Hochschild and Anne Machung published The Second Shift, there hasn't been much progress on that front.  And we slid backwards on some of the progress made when kids had to do school at home due to the pandemic; the extra burden fell, and still falls, largely on women.

Yeah, I read about that.  My mother was big on women's issues and Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique" spoke right to her in 1963.  She was the only mother on my block to work full time when I was a kid.  She worked part time for 2 years then full time starting when I was 9.  My grandma lived in our building and looked after me after school.  The household chores were always an issue between my parents.  My dad was born in 1927 and more progressive than most men from his generation, but still a product of his environment.  So he had an excuse.  My husband paid lip service to sharing the chores more equally but it never worked out that way in practice.  I will admit that this was one part of the reason for our long term separation, and probably part of why I never pushed harder to have children.  There was a time we were open to having a child but it didn't happen and I chose not to push the issue.  If it happened, great, if not oh well.  And it did not. 

When my husband and I got back together after our separation almost a decade ago I chose to hire a friend of ours to do a lot of the heavy household chores, like floors, bathrooms, dusting, "handyman" stuff, garage cleaning, yard work, etc.  I realized I wasn't going to win this battle but at least I came prepared with a solution.  This worked for us up until the pandemic when neither of us was comfortable with this friend coming over anymore.  I was just starting to have him come over again this Spring after everyone was vaccinated and numbers were low when he fell and messed up both ligaments in one of his knees.  So there went that, and I am not comfortable right now having strangers coming in here to do it.  So it has been a bit rough on me and I never feel like the house looks its best anymore.  

Almost 60 years later and It's mind boggling that this division of household labor stuff is still such an issue.  40 years ago I honestly never would have thought that would be the case all these years later.  I thought the younger men were different but I guess it is more ingrained than that.  In my experience men seem to think they are doing more than they are.  I used to think this was passive aggressive behavior but now I wonder if it isn't just cluelessness about how it feels from a woman's perspective and an unwillingness to find out.  I have also theorized that women are unknowingly their own worst enemies in this regard.  They don't realize that by continuing to accept most of the household responsibilities they are modeling behavior to their sons that will only perpetuate the problem.  Men expect women to be just like their mothers and seem to function as if their partner or spouse is going to do whatever she did around the house whether they realize it or not.  "Women's work" is still invisible to them.  Just like the toilet paper that miraculously gets replaced without their intervention.  If they are raised with a mother that caters to them by doing all that stuff it sets up the women in their lives to pay the price for it.

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1 hour ago, Stats Queen said:

How was the Penn State team able to find each other? They blended in with the snow 😜

That brought back memories of a Packers game vs. Tampa Bay in 1985 - Green Bay got 12 inches of snow before the game and another 5 inches during the game.  The Buccaneers wore white jerseys and white pants and disappeared in the snow.  The Bucs had only 5 first downs and gained less than 70 yards.  It's the only time in over 50 years of watching football I ever thought a team might not come out of the locker room for the second half.  

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2 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

In my experience men seem to think they are doing more than they are.

Oh, yes - study after study bears that out.  Women generally spend 40 percent more time than men taking care of the house and kids.

But survey couples as to what percentage of these duties they each do, and men consistently state they do a greater share than their female partners say these dudes actually do.  Ask the parties to log their time spent on these tasks over a period of time, and the men consistently document themselves as doing a notably lower percentage than they initially estimated themselves to do.

There's still far too much of a notion - even if it has moved into the subconscious among many, who'd claim with a straight face that of course they don't feel this way - that taking care of the home and kids is the woman's job with which the man magnanimously helps, rather than an equally shared responsibility.  Plus, there's the bar having long been set so low for men's participation.  So if the sense is this is more her thing than mine to begin with, so 50% would be crazy involved of me, and most men do about 20%, then follows the attitude of I do 35%, so I am a fabulously evolved partner in equality and deserve a cookie (or a blow job) -- for doing what is still less than their share.

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11 minutes ago, Bastet said:

There's still far too much of a notion - even if it has moved into the subconscious among many, who'd claim with a straight face that of course they don't feel this way - that taking care of the home and kids is the woman's job with which the man magnanimously helps, rather than an equally shared responsibility.  Plus, there's the bar having long been set so low for men's participation.  So if the sense is this is more her thing than mine to begin with, so 50% would be crazy involved of me, and most men do about 20%, then follows the attitude of I do 35%, so I am a fabulously evolved partner in equality and deserve a cookie (or a blow job) -- for doing what is still less than their share.

My mother used to say that whenever my father did any chores around the house he acted like he deserved a medal for it, LOL.  It's so true.  My life experience has taught me that my father was far from alone in overestimating the amount and worth of his household contributions and underestimating and undervaluing his wife's.  I honestly think that my husband would argue over it if he was faced with the actual facts listed so he could see the breakdown.  He'd claim they were inaccurate or didn't take into account all this other stuff he does (of course not factoring in all the "other" stuff I do).

I was saying 40 years ago that his role shouldn't be to "help out" around the house but to share it equitably if not completely equally.  By that I mean, he would do the things involving strengths I didn't have and I would do other things to make up for it.  And he was sincere about wanting to do that.  But again it's his perception of what constitutes an equal sharing of labor that's the problem.  Plus he never acted like he was equally responsible for any of it and still just acted like he's helping out.

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Dad was born in 1923 and Mom in 1928. They shared a home for 67 years. While Dad never did general house cleaning, he took over cooking and cleaning the kitchen for the last 30 years of their marriage, and Mom hired a cleaning lady as soon as she started working full time in the 70s. Dad also did all the yard work and plumbing himself until he was about 65. 

My point is that there are different ways to equitably divide the labor.

I supposed these variations (e.g., Dad in the kitchen; mom overseeing who was hired to clean the rest of the home) might contribute to a small margin of error in some studies.

But perhaps that would be offset by the lack of anything on a survey that would reflect my ex's total blindness to the existence of cleaning in the home.

My daughter and her husband equally share in cleaning, which included hiring someone to come in twice a month until the pandemic hit. Now I almost gag when I enter their bathrooms, and try to surreptitiously do a little cleaning, but my adult kids feel like I'm judging them if I clean their homes, so it's tricky.

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21 hours ago, crazycatlady58 said:

I don't know,  I work retail and we have stores in Houston who have been looking for help for a while. We do not pay the highest salary but we are not just paying minimum wage either. We are a small company and cannot start people out at 15 dollars an hour. It is truly an easy job. No late hours and most of the customers are nice. I mean people are not even responding to the Indeed.com postings.

People don't care how easy the job is, they care that the paycheck is going to put food on the table, pay the bills with extra for fun and to save, and that they won't be financially destroyed if they have a medical emergency. Retail and food service have always had nortoriously low wages, because the work is considered "easy" or "unskilled" but that doesn't mean people don't need to pay the bills, and they shouldn't have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. We need to denormalize the "hustle culture" and renormalize "pay people a living wage, regardless of what job they do" culture.

Check out recruitinghell and antiwork on Reddit. Both are full of thoughtful posts that shed a lot of light on the current situation.

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19 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

For sure! I think being a homemaker is a wonderful thing if you can manage it. It just depends on what makes you happy. Some people find job stress worth it if they want to travel and whatnot. But some people are perfectly happy enjoying the simple things, maybe sharing a car with their spouse, and getting to be at home. Honestly, it's sad how much of our lives are spent at work. I'm very grateful I'm able to work from home now. I see my family much more than I used to. 

This is exactly me.  I rather stay home now as certain health issues came about.  Back surgery, two hip replacements, 5 stents, blah, blah.  Nice Condo, one car, no fancy vacations, don’t need designer,  eat out at reasonable places, etc.  Simple things in life.  If we take a ride for a few hours, see the kids, I’m content.  Wouldn’t have the energy to get up and go.  Plus, I love my books and tv.  We did more traveling by car with the kids then, not now.  The kicker too is that we put three kids thru good colleges, which came first.  For a woman in her thirties ( you are just a baby), you have it all together, I must say.  Very sensible.  Your Parent/Parents taught you well.

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8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Dad was born in 1923 and Mom in 1928. They shared a home for 67 years. While Dad never did general house cleaning, he took over cooking and cleaning the kitchen for the last 30 years of their marriage, and Mom hired a cleaning lady as soon as she started working full time in the 70s. Dad also did all the yard work and plumbing himself until he was about 65. 

My point is that there are different ways to equitably divide the labor.

I supposed these variations (e.g., Dad in the kitchen; mom overseeing who was hired to clean the rest of the home) might contribute to a small margin of error in some studies.

But perhaps that would be offset by the lack of anything on a survey that would reflect my ex's total blindness to the existence of cleaning in the home.

My daughter and her husband equally share in cleaning, which included hiring someone to come in twice a month until the pandemic hit. Now I almost gag when I enter their bathrooms, and try to surreptitiously do a little cleaning, but my adult kids feel like I'm judging them if I clean their homes, so it's tricky.

I would say most men who would clean a bathroom and wash a floor, would think it will last about six months.  What they don’t seem to know is you have to keep up every week, or everyday in some cases.  Spruce ups.

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5 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

I would say most men who would clean a bathroom and wash a floor, would think it will last about six months.  What they don’t seem to know is you have to keep up every week, or everyday in some cases.  Spruce ups.

I used to say he must think the Toilet Fairy paid his bathroom a visit while he's sleeping. I finally hung up my wings years ago.

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2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

This is exactly me.  I rather stay home now as certain health issues came about.  Back surgery, two hip replacements, 5 stents, blah, blah.  Nice Condo, one car, no fancy vacations, don’t need designer,  eat out at reasonable places, etc.  Simple things in life.  If we take a ride for a few hours, see the kids, I’m content.  Wouldn’t have the energy to get up and go.  Plus, I love my books and tv.  We did more traveling by car with the kids then, not now.  The kicker too is that we put three kids thru good colleges, which came first.  For a woman in her thirties ( you are just a baby), you have it all together, I must say.  Very sensible.  Your Parent/Parents taught you well.

Aw, I'm so sorry you've gone through all that! I take great pleasure in books and tv too. :) It's wonderful you put three kids in good colleges. 👏 Good job! Thank you so much for the very sweet words. I really appreciate it. ❤️

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11 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

I used to say he must think the Toilet Fairy paid his bathroom a visit while he's sleeping. I finally hung up my wings years ago.

My hubs thought that swishing a toilet brush around the bowl was "cleaning the toilet".  Whenever I challenged him on his cleaning technique, his classic response was "well, then you can just do it."  Sad thing is, he actually did help more than most.

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21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Dad was born in 1923 and Mom in 1928. They shared a home for 67 years. While Dad never did general house cleaning, he took over cooking and cleaning the kitchen for the last 30 years of their marriage, and Mom hired a cleaning lady as soon as she started working full time in the 70s. Dad also did all the yard work and plumbing himself until he was about 65. 

My point is that there are different ways to equitably divide the labor.

My Dad was born in 1927, my Mom in 1924.  My Mom died in 2001.  Then I had to convince my father to find a cleaning person.  He hired their good friend and cook at their senior center.  She was a saint.  She later became my father's caretaker for the last almost 20 years of his life.  Before I could convince him to hire someone his apartment got dirty and messy.  I had to use vacation time to come down there and clean up the place and get rid of stuff.  Newspapers were piled up.  Junk everywhere.  In only a couple of years the place had gone downhill fast. 

But as to the division of labor in my parents marriage, my mother would have loved to hire someone but we didn't have the money to afford that.  My Dad was career Army and then worked in non-profit and the cost of living was high in NYC.  In addition to the groceries and household stuff, my mother used her money to send me to day camp, get me art lessons and buy me braces.  I suppose she could have foregone the road trips we took a few times a year up to Vermont and other places, but looking back on it I don't think I would have traded those trips for a cleaner house.  On the other hand, the other kids on my block had stay at home moms whose apartments were spotless with furniture sometimes covered in plastic (remember THAT?).  I felt that I would be judged poorly if those kids saw my house.  I already felt like an outsider given that I was ethnically different.  This was a very Jewish neighborhood in the 1960s and I was an Episcopalian.  They treated me like an oddity at arm's length.  I got invited to their birthday parties but then no one came to mine because they were all conveniently in the Catskills on my birthday. 

Then on top of that the mean girls bullied me.  Just proof prejudice can work both ways.  So yeah, I am kind of scarred for life over this and to this day I never think my house is clean enough and worry that I will be judged.  My mother didn't realize how her not being there was affecting me, but she really didn't have much choice but to work.  If she were there to see this on a daily basis she would have seen what was happening and intervened.  My grandmother was not that involved in what was happening to me.  She was there in some ways but very removed from what was going on down the street.  My mother's family was Sicilian.  The Jewish mothers used to hang out in the street with their kids chatting with each other.  Their culture and experiences were completely different from my mother's.  My mother and grandmother wouldn't have fit into that group anyway, especially not my Mom being that she was an intellectual "women's libber" and not a "Suzy Homemaker" like the other mothers.  But the point is none of my parents/grandparents understood what was happening with me and I was just a kid and didn't know any better.

Getting back to my father's caretaker, I don't know what we would have done without Willie.  Dad was a Depression child from no money.  He wouldn't have wanted a stranger coming into the house.  Willie was there when I couldn't be.  She was there when the ambulance took him to the hospital when he had Covid.  She risked her life to be there for him.  I only saw Willie once after my Dad passed.  It was in the Spring, when I got her and my best friends together.  We stayed in touch on the phone and texting.  She last texted me on the evening of the 11th of this month just to say hi.  I wrote back on the 12th but didn't hear back from her.  I was thinking about calling her when I got a text from her phone from her daughter with a death announcement.  She had passed peacefully in her sleep on the 15th.  Willie was 77.  My heart is broken.  😥

This was Willie:

106996601_154335022908557_45748960421422

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On 11/28/2021 at 12:19 AM, Bastet said:

But survey couples as to what percentage of these duties they each do, and men consistently state they do a greater share than their female partners say these dudes actually do. 

I do 100% in my house and was WELL above 50% when I did have a female partner in my house. These slackers are obviously riding my coattails to bring their averages up.

19 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I would say most men who would clean a bathroom and wash a floor, would think it will last about six months.  What they don’t seem to know is you have to keep up every week, or everyday in some cases.  Spruce ups.

LOL. Guilty. Well, not guilty of not knowing that the bathroom needs to be cleaned more often than every six months, but clearly guilty of tolerating it.

On the list of things that need to be done every day, every week, every month and so on, giving a shit about the shower being kind of dirty is way, WAY down on my list of concerns. I'm not sure if this a male specific take on the matter, but it wouldn't shock me if it is.

Clothes need to be clean. Dishes and food prep/eating areas need to be clean. Me and the kids need to be clean. The shower walls and the bathroom floor? Meh, I'll get to that when I get to it.

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7 hours ago, SuprSuprElevated said:

My hubs thought that swishing a toilet brush around the bowl was "cleaning the toilet".  Whenever I challenged him on his cleaning technique, his classic response was "well, then you can just do it."  Sad thing is, he actually did help more than most.

That excuse is my pet peeve. Along with the related excuse “I can never meet your standards.” To be clear, my standard is clean - no toothpaste spots in the sink, no spaghetti sauce on the counter, etc. If you “clean” the bathroom but forget to scrub the toilet, you didn’t clean the bathroom. I wasn’t born with some advanced cleaning gene, I just pay attention to what I’m doing. 

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8 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

I do 100% in my house and was WELL above 50% when I did have a female partner in my house. These slackers are obviously riding my coattails to bring their averages up.

LOL. Guilty. Well, not guilty of not knowing that the bathroom needs to be cleaned more often than every six months, but clearly guilty of tolerating it.

On the list of things that need to be done every day, every week, every month and so on, giving a shit about the shower being kind of dirty is way, WAY down on my list of concerns. I'm not sure if this a male specific take on the matter, but it wouldn't shock me if it is.

Tho, I’ll bet you and the millions of men around, married or single know everything on a list of every sport channel and stat of each player on all sports there is, or whatever is your fancy.  My husband of many years asked me today where the salt and pepper was, as I’m making pea soup from the ham that we had.  It took him 30 minutes to peel four carrots, when he finally found them.  The last place he looked was in the fridge where they have been for 50 years.  He was an excellent provider tho, so I give him a pass.  Plus, he does what I ask, so there’s that.  Being I have back problems now, I think I want a cleaning woman twice a month, like lots of women have.  He doesn’t think it’s necessary.  Maybe the fairy will come and do it.

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2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Maybe the fairy will come and do it.

Sorry, I'm too busy with my own work.  🧚‍♀️

And I hate to mention it, but if those carrots have been in the fridge for 50 years, it's time for some new carrots.  🥕

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2 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

LOL. Guilty. Well, not guilty of not knowing that the bathroom needs to be cleaned more often than every six months, but clearly guilty of tolerating it.

On the list of things that need to be done every day, every week, every month and so on, giving a shit about the shower being kind of dirty is way, WAY down on my list of concerns. I'm not sure if this a male specific take on the matter, but it wouldn't shock me if it is.

Clothes need to be clean. Dishes and food prep/eating areas need to be clean. Me and the kids need to be clean. The shower walls and the bathroom floor? Meh, I'll get to that when I get to it.

Ewww! Just like my adult kids! Where did we Boomer parents go wrong?

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Christmas related "just wondering" - making gingerbread houses has never been part of my family's holiday tradition but if Hallmark movies (not to mention the stacks of DIY in stores including Barbie's Malibu Dreamhouse!) are anything to go by lots of people do make them.  So my query is once made do these houses get eaten or are they strictly for show?

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24 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

Christmas related "just wondering" - making gingerbread houses has never been part of my family's holiday tradition but if Hallmark movies (not to mention the stacks of DIY in stores including Barbie's Malibu Dreamhouse!) are anything to go by lots of people do make them.  So my query is once made do these houses get eaten or are they strictly for show?

We may have gotten the kits a time or two when the kids were young.  Maybe once one got constructed.  If I recall correctly, the gumdrops got eaten (before and/or after construction).

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50 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

Sorry, I'm too busy with my own work.  🧚‍♀️

And I hate to mention it, but if those carrots have been in the fridge for 50 years, it's time for some new carrots.  🥕

Good one, and that’s where I usually put the carrots, in the bin.  Trouble is, they didn’t pop out and hit him in the head.  He had to actually pull the drawer out.  But, at least he does the food shopping now, as he’s an expert on all the sales.  I now have about 100 boxes of coffee on the shelf.  One day sale.  It’s just amazing how much they learn since retiring.  He now knows everyone in the supermarket.  His second home.

 

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2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Good one, and that’s where I usually put the carrots, in the bin.  Trouble is, they didn’t pop out and hit him in the head.  He had to actually pull the drawer out.  But, at least he does the food shopping now, as he’s an expert on all the sales.  I now have about 100 boxes of coffee on the shelf.  One day sale.  It’s just amazing how much they learn since retiring.  He now knows everyone in the supermarket.  His second home.

 

I know I complain about the hubs a lot, but after all these years, I’d be a dead woman without him.  He’s part of me since I’m twenty years old.  He will do lots of my dirty work if I ask, and always has my back.  I have in turn given him lots of slack when it comes to his hobbies.  Golf continuously and watching every sport there is on tv.  I also was very good to his parents through the years ..always had them over for dinner, etc.  Things change.  My girls don’t do half of what I did.  Different generation.  The husbands of today are more hands on with child rearing and helping out in the house.  They share more of the responsibilities.

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6 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

 

LOL. Guilty. Well, not guilty of not knowing that the bathroom needs to be cleaned more often than every six months, but clearly guilty of tolerating it.

On the list of things that need to be done every day, every week, every month and so on, giving a shit about the shower being kind of dirty is way, WAY down on my list of concerns. I'm not sure if this a male specific take on the matter, but it wouldn't shock me if it is.

Clothes need to be clean. Dishes and food prep/eating areas need to be clean. Me and the kids need to be clean. The shower walls and the bathroom floor? Meh, I'll get to that when I get to it.

Not male specific-- I feel the same. As I always say, I clean the place twice a year whether it needs it or not.

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So this is purely for the "ladies" -- my somewhere-in-the-70s mom is convinced that tampons are bad. She is always reminding me to use pads and not tampons. She says they;re unclean and dangerous. 

Is there any truth to this? I have been looking it up online and I cannot find anything. Other than if you don't take your tampon out it can cause toxic shock syndrome.

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1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So this is purely for the "ladies" -- my somewhere-in-the-70s mom is convinced that tampons are bad. She is always reminding me to use pads and not tampons. She says they;re unclean and dangerous. 

Is there any truth to this?

No.

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6 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So this is purely for the "ladies" -- my somewhere-in-the-70s mom is convinced that tampons are bad. She is always reminding me to use pads and not tampons. She says they;re unclean and dangerous. 

Is there any truth to this? I have been looking it up online and I cannot find anything. Other than if you don't take your tampon out it can cause toxic shock syndrome.

4 minutes ago, Bastet said:

No.

I'm close to your mom's age and used my MLS degree superpowers and decades of work in research to find some links to reliable info that might be of use to allay her fears.
Message me if you want them.

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17 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

On the list of things that need to be done every day, every week, every month and so on, giving a shit about the shower being kind of dirty is way, WAY down on my list of concerns. I'm not sure if this a male specific take on the matter, but it wouldn't shock me if it is.

One of my female friends used to say that "men don't see dirt the way women do".  It amazes me how true this still is 40 years after I first heard her say it.  Well, it's generally true, I have known fastidious men that would make any woman feel positively unclean, LOL.

I have had to make my peace with having to rewash some of the dishes my husband washes because no amount of telling him they're not really clean if there's still food stuck to them works.  After giving him a medal for washing them in the first place too!

16 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Tho, I’ll bet you and the millions of men around, married or single know everything on a list of every sport channel and stat of each player on all sports there is, or whatever is your fancy.  My husband of many years asked me today where the salt and pepper was, as I’m making pea soup from the ham that we had.  It took him 30 minutes to peel four carrots, when he finally found them.  The last place he looked was in the fridge where they have been for 50 years.  He was an excellent provider tho, so I give him a pass.  Plus, he does what I ask, so there’s that.  Being I have back problems now, I think I want a cleaning woman twice a month, like lots of women have.  He doesn’t think it’s necessary.  Maybe the fairy will come and do it.

Like my father, my husband isn't into sports.  But he can tell you the statistics of every stereo receiver and church organ ever made, LOL.  I go through the same thing in the kitchen.  It's unbelievable, everything is in the same place in the kitchen forever but he never knows where it is.  Plus forget it, if I don't put it in the front of the fridge he'll never find it.  I tell him I can't put everything in the front, LOL.  Meanwhile he can tell you where everything is in his office.  He just doesn't want to remember in the kitchen.  I think there's some kind of conditioning going on about what is "women's work", which doesn't get priority in his brain, but it's such unconscious behavior that he isn't aware of it.

I may have posted about this before, but I lost my cleaning person because of Covid.  He was a friend of ours who did that plus handyman work around the house.  Before the vaccine I didn't let him or anyone in the house.  Given that he'd given me the flu a few years before I was especially against him coming over.  After the vaccine when the numbers were low I had him come back a few times but due to a pretty bad knee injury he got somewhere else a few months ago I am without him yet again, which sucks.  And apparently I am a lot like my father in not liking the idea of strangers coming over to clean.  Plus I'm still afraid of Covid even with vaccines.  Ugh.  So I am not happy with the way the house looks.  I'm doing the best I can but it's not the way it looked pre-pandemic.  All it would take is one visit from a cleaning person to bring it back to its pre-pandemic appearance but I am not up for that just yet.  I know I have to get over that.  Of course my husband thinks the place looks fine, LOL.

When my husband asked me what he could do to help on Thanksgiving, I told him he could mop the kitchen floor, LOL.  That's one thing he does pretty well, just not very often.  He was a superintendent's son and one of his chores was mopping hallway floors as a kid. 

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1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

He was a superintendent's son and one of his chores was mopping hallway floors as a kid. 

That just shows that if you had to do it as a kid, things don't become so mysterious when you're an adult.

The one boyfriend I ever cohabitated with was great at household chores. Cleaner than me and we had a deal about the things each of us hated. So, he did the bathroom, which I hate doing and I did the dishes, which he hated. He took care of the plants and I ironed his sjhirts. He also cooked better. If he hadn't been an untenable boyfriend for many other reasons, we might still be together. Well, probably not.

A male room mate I had during grad school however was the classic, What? There are dishes in the sink? I don't know how they could get into the dishwasher. What, bathroom hasn't been cleaned in a month? How can you tell? kind of man. And he couldn't aim. It was like living with a dog. And I'm a cat person.

After sharing a house with him for 2 years, I vowed never to live with another person again. I felt like I was turning into this shrill person who obsesses over the cleanliness of the house all day long. And I'm really not that kind of person.

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20 minutes ago, supposebly said:

That just shows that if you had to do it as a kid, things don't become so mysterious when you're an adult.

The one boyfriend I ever cohabitated with was great at household chores. Cleaner than me and we had a deal about the things each of us hated. So, he did the bathroom, which I hate doing and I did the dishes, which he hated. He took care of the plants and I ironed his sjhirts. He also cooked better. If he hadn't been an untenable boyfriend for many other reasons, we might still be together. Well, probably not.

A male room mate I had during grad school however was the classic, What? There are dishes in the sink? I don't know how they could get into the dishwasher. What, bathroom hasn't been cleaned in a month? How can you tell? kind of man. And he couldn't aim. It was like living with a dog. And I'm a cat person.

After sharing a house with him for 2 years, I vowed never to live with another person again. I felt like I was turning into this shrill person who obsesses over the cleanliness of the house all day long. And I'm really not that kind of person.

Although I may have lived with a guy for 8 of my 68 years and had 3 kids, apparently you and I are Very Much Alike, @supposebly. When I'm stressed I clean. A shortage of paper towels could probably trigger a mental break, LOL, but that Never happened. 

But now I recall decades ago when my oldest was a toddler, I had a date with a guy who came to my apartment and held up a jar of honey that was sticky on the outside (this was before they invented those wonderful no-drip lids) and remarked about how everything else was so clean but this jar of honey was--and then I think he was at a loss for words because of the abomination. That was the last date. Seemed like he was looking for trouble. Dodged another bullet.

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This is a weird or maybe a WTF anniversary, since it cost me the one thing I have always been vain about--my hair.

Actually it was Saturday, November 27th. Seventh year anniversary when I started chemo as a "just to be safe" measure due to the location of the lump that was extracted out of my right breast, along with the breast.

The worst five months of my life that I can remember. While I wasn't bent over the toilet bowl, I...well, I don't have the words to describe the nausea, that lasted for nearly a week after each treatment so I didn't feel like eating, which was BAD. Because I had to eat. and the drugs didn't help. Until I finally called the nurse and she had the oncologist prescribe Ativan, which, miraculously helped a bit. But it wasn't until my Mom came and cooked, and forced me to eat when I didn't feel like it. 

Fortunately, I only had to go once every three weeks and not weekly. Don't get me started on how painful it was trying to stick the needle into my port because of the location of the port--right above my left breast. The pre-numbing with lidocaine before going...then numbing again with ice when I got to the infusion center. JEEBUS.

Yes, I'm healthy and grateful to be healthy and alive. And yes, most of my hair did grow back, but it's not as thick and the front part/top of my forehead/head still looks like someone hacked or burned it off, so I'm still very self conscious about it and have an inferiority complex. Man, do I miss the 45 minutes it took to blow dry and style my hair. I know, shallow of me, but I can't help it.

And I keep asking my brain why it had to remember this date?

So, yay, another milestone and I'm so gonna 🍾🥂 this weekend, as I have too much work to do this week.

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14 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So this is purely for the "ladies" -- my somewhere-in-the-70s mom is convinced that tampons are bad. She is always reminding me to use pads and not tampons. She says they;re unclean and dangerous. 

Is there any truth to this? I have been looking it up online and I cannot find anything. Other than if you don't take your tampon out it can cause toxic shock syndrome.

My mom did the same thing to my sister and me, as soon as we got our driver's licenses we would sneak to the store to buy them and hide them in the back of our bathroom cabinet. Even when I had my two daughters she would try to scare the bejeebers out of them with her tampon stories. The issue is only if you leave them in for looonnggg stretches of time. 

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

One of my female friends used to say that "men don't see dirt the way women do".  It amazes me how true this still is 40 years after I first heard her say it.  Well, it's generally true, I have known fastidious men that would make any woman feel positively unclean, LOL.

We have the same friend, and yes it is very true.  I moved into my now-husband's house 2 years ago. It was atrocious but he will tell you he kept a clean house. What? I'm talking about cobwebs in ceiling corners, floors that hadn't been swept or vacuumed in months, and a bathroom tub that had a dark film all around it. To him it was "fine". Even after 2 years he is still baffled that I mop, vacuum, dust, wipe and scrub on a regular basis. Yet he will come home from working at someone's house and tell me how dirty it was, he can't see it in his own home though. 

3 hours ago, supposebly said:

A male room mate I had during grad school however was the classic, What? There are dishes in the sink? I don't know how they could get into the dishwasher. What, bathroom hasn't been cleaned in a month? How can you tell? kind of man. And he couldn't aim. It was like living with a dog. And I'm a cat person.

LOL, this was my youngest daughter while she lived with me! She would roll her eyes at my "clean-freak" demands. Now that she lives with her boyfriend she understands. 

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16 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So this is purely for the "ladies" -- my somewhere-in-the-70s mom is convinced that tampons are bad. She is always reminding me to use pads and not tampons. She says they;re unclean and dangerous. 

Is there any truth to this? I have been looking it up online and I cannot find anything. Other than if you don't take your tampon out it can cause toxic shock syndrome.

My Mother used to tell me the same thing.  “Let it all come out”, then once in awhile, use a vinegar and water splash.  I only used tampons when going in the pool.  Toxic shock syndrome would scare me.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, kristen111 said:

My Mother used to tell me the same thing.  “Let it all come out”, then once in awhile, use a vinegar and water splash.  I only used tampons when going in the pool.  Toxic shock syndrome would scare me.

 

 

My grandmother once told me tampons were only for married ladies.  Yep, she bought into the "tampons will take away your virginity" myth.  Ummmmm...suuuure?  

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