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S05.E05: Kill The Boy

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I'm hoping they do something with him similar to what they did with Dany and the hatching of the dragons: he rises from the dead because he's meant to do that without anyone's help.  I'm hoping that's the case in the books too and think there's some set-up for it.  In her chapters Melissandre intuits that Jon is important, but she can't quite see why.  It would be awesome if she sees Jon rise for himself, and then she'll realize that he's AA.  Mel going off with Stannis on the show gives me hope that this is how it's going to happen in the books.

Taking this to the speculation thread.

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I know!  I am seriously considering cheering him to sit the Iron Throne now. :)

 

Still, I hope his wife dies soon.

 

Even though it's icky from an age standpoint (to put it mildly), Sansa would be a good match for Stannis.  They aren't related, it would give him Northern support, and she would probably be a good step-mother for Shireen.

 

 

Other observations:

 

Before worrying that Theon was going to have a finger taken off I thought Ramsay might actually make Theon blow him.

Sansa seems to only own two dresses.

 

Wow, the actress who plays Myranda is super thin. I don't typically comment on the weight of actors but I thought that was super noticeable.

 

Theon confessed to Ramsay before he knew what a psychopath Ramsay is. 

 

I had the same concern regarding Ramsay and Reek.

 

Maybe they are trying to work in the starving first wife angle with the super-thin Myranda

I was a little confounded by the dinner scene with the Boltons and Sansa. Wasn't Show Ramsay supposed to be pretending to be a nice guy for the time being? That really went out the window, but Sansa didn't seem shocked or even unnerved by it, and yet she isn't trying to seduce him like Littlefinger suggested, so what is going on? And maybe I missed it, but I thought she didn't know he used to be a bastard. Judging by her amused reaction to Walda's announcement, she must know by now. So unless she has some definitive plan (waiting for rescue? lighting the candle in the high tower?), she seems to be going ahead with marrying him even though 1) he is a sadist and 2) he may very well be disinherited/discredited. The situation at Winterfell is so different this week compared to last that I feel like I missed an episode even though I didn't.

 

I would think that Sansa would know that Ramsay is a bastard as she seemed to pay attention to her Septa and probably learned who all of her father's bannermen and their kin were.  But I agree that it was hard to tell what Sansa was trying to do in this scene - maybe she was truly put off by what Fat Walda said and just reacted to it.

 

Aw, I feel badly for Fat Walda.  She seems sweet and not as beaten down as most of the Freys always seem to be (to the point where she is blossoming as Roose's Lady, which really says a lot about the Freys), she's trying to host the most awkward dinner ever, and then Ramsay has to trot out Theon to make it even more ridiculous.  That whole scene was darkly funny.

 

ETA:  I hope at some point in this series that they actually show us Littlefinger's airplane/time travel device because as much as some of the travel timelines require some suspending of disbelief and handwaving, his require the most.  Also, I thought that Brienne was a little too trusting about weathered Northerner #4.  He could be a Bolton plant, too.

Edited by polyhymnia
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I'm hoping they do something with him similar to what they did with Dany and the hatching of the dragons: he rises from the dead because he's meant to do that without anyone's help.  I'm hoping that's the case in the books too and think there's some set-up for it.  In her chapters Melissandre intuits that Jon is important, but she can't quite see why.  It would be awesome if she sees Jon rise for himself, and then she'll realize that he's AA.  Mel going off with Stannis on the show gives me hope that this is how it's going to happen in the books.

 

 

Well, we might have been told part of a plan, but not the whole plan. It took us four seasons to see that it was Lysa, manipulated by LF, who killed Jon Arryn.  We've also had many other plans on the show that were not revealed until after they were executed.  In the books too.  We are never told that Roose has a plan to kill Robb and take over the North, we are, in fact gently prodded to believing the Karstarks are the danger and then we're thoroughly blindsided by the events in the Red Wedding.

 

For all we know, Sansa and LF made a more detailed plan, but we just haven't been told about it.

 

I was thinking about this the other day but on the show, we never learn that Joffrey was the one who tried to have Bran killed.  It's a completely forgotten story point on the show.

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I was thinking about this the other day but on the show, we never learn that Joffrey was the one who tried to have Bran killed.  It's a completely forgotten story point on the show.

Really? I totally didn't realize that that had been left in the air.

 

Doesn't Tyrion at least give Joffrey a weird look about it at some point?

Edited by Avaleigh

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Wow, I loved the Valyria scene (until the attack, at least - it was less interesting, but still well-done). One of the things the show does the best for me is its visuals,and I've just felt myself being immersed 100%. So beautiful and haunting.

 

I am, however, concerned that Tyrion has almost nothing to do this season so far. I like Show Tyrion way more than the Book Tyrion, and I love Dinklage - I appreciate that we are spared the incessant travelogues, but really, let him meet Dany already. I think the actors, if not necessarily the writing, will make it worth my while.

 

Dany also worked for me, a welcome change for the show that loves to shit on female characters. Of course, we'll probably have to trade Sansa for that soon.

 

I liked that they've had Roose talk about his rape of Ramsey's mother. Way too many people love this bastard. Hopefully it would shut them for a while.

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Even though it's icky from an age standpoint (to put it mildly), Sansa would be a good match for Stannis.  They aren't related, it would give him Northern support, and she would probably be a good step-mother for Shireen.

The best thing for Shireen (and Sansa) is for Stannis to crush the Boltons, leave Shireen with Sansa (and Brienne!) in Winterfell, and continue on towards the Riverlands and the Freys.  Therefore, what will probably happen is Ramsay takes a small group and captures the "far from battle" Shireen.  Meanwhile, Brienne takes advantage of the battle chaos and kills Stannis, an event that breaks his ranks and allows Roose to win.

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It seems LF's plan is "you know what to do." It remains to be seen if Sansa has been paying attention.

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I think upthread I said Jorah would probably die in the pits to save himself from a slow calcifying death, but if he's taking JonCon's place then I think he'll live until he gets to Westeros to be Patient Zero for a greyscale plague.

Edited by GreyBunny

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Or maybe the JonCon greyscale doesn't matter, and the Jorah greyscale is meant to be a more dramatic TV stand-in for the Pale Mare, and Jorah will become the Typhoid Mary of Mereen?

Edited by atua
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Perhaps, but then why so much focus on Shireen and her greyscale?  I think a plague is coming to Westeros, Jorah is going to bring it, and poor Shireen is going to be unfairly blamed.

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Nah, this is Winterfell man. The Boltons are not at ease. Sansa said it perfectly, this is her home, the strangers are the others not her. They are like Dany in Meereen except they're bringing no freedom.

 

 

 

But the Boltons are perfectly aware that Sansa's on her own territory - and they aren't. They know the Starks were loved and the Boltons loathed. It would take much stupider men than Roose and even Ramsey are not to realize that Sansa could be a focus for unrest in Winterfell. They'd want to deter her from it.

 

Which is why I worry that the show will turn this old woman into one of Ramsey's overly elaborate sadistic ploys for cheap shock value. IMO, it would be just like Show Ramsey to use the old lady as a decoy to pull the rug out from under Sansa's hopes with an Evol Mwa-Ha-Ha! We've seen he likes psychological torture as much as physical torture, and IMO it would be well within what this show has written previously for Ramsey to decide that if he can't outright torture Sansa physically he can at least terrify her to keep her in line.

 

I can just imagine the scene.

Ramsey: "So you thought you could get the peasants to turn against us?" *does horrible bloody thing to some helpless innocent stand-in.* "Don't even DREAM about betraying us." And then defending his actions to Roose, "Well, I didn't HURT her. Just wanted to make sure she properly respected us."

 

I'm still worried it's going to happen. And what bothers me most is that I probably wouldn't have worried about it if Sansa had actively sought this ally out and befriended her instead of passively having her fall in her lap and taking her at face value. I want to see Sansa DO something to help herself, not just wait for someone to rescue her and hope that the rescuer doesn't have an ulterior motive to screw her over (again).

 

Even now I STILL hope Sansa will actively do something to manipulate Ramsey into acting against his father. He already wants to - let Roose die now and the North is his; but let a legitimate heir be born and he might lose everything. I don't think the fact that she isn't immediately trying to seduce Ramsey means that she's not going to try to pull his strings. I think it's quite plausible she'd want to watch him and his father for awhile to get to know what makes them tick before rushing in with  tactics that might be the wrong ones, that would put them both on guard.

 

I'm hoping that once she gets a better idea who Ramsey is, she might decide that a Lady Macbeth act would be just what he'd go for - urging him to patricide so they can both rise to greater power (that is, before she gets a nice old lady to serve Ramsey some hemlock wine).

 

That's my best case scenario...but I still worry that the show will go all Jeyne Poole with her and once more depend fully on Theon and/or Brienne and Pod to rescue the helpless damsel-in-distress (again).

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I think the washerwoman is sincere.  We've already seen Ramsay physically and psychologically torture Theon among others, to have the washerwoman be a secret spy to undermine Sansa would be redundant, especially since Sansa was already toyed with by Joffrey and Cersei.  After Littlefinger taught her to be cunning there needs to be a payoff. Besides, there are only have two seasons left after this one, things have to get going.

Edited by GreyBunny
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Someone noted sailing into Valryia is the kind of stupid thing that Book Jorah would do.  I would also say that his risking a greyscale epidemic to get back to his beloved Dany is also the kind of stupid thing Book Jorah would do.

 

Having Jorah be the one to contract greyscale completely works for the show because Jorah is a character that viewer care about.

Edited by benteen
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Here's an article on Business Insider, talking about the greyscale storyline on Thrones.  Probably the creepiest thing is they show a still from last night's episode where Jorah and Tyrion are sailing through Valryia and identifies no less than 12 Stone Men.  Something I have to check out when I rewatch the show.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-greyscale-stone-men-2015-5

Edited by benteen
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That is so creepy!  I saw the one on the ledge but didn't see the 11 others (and possibly more) sooner.  Good job, show.

Edited by GreyBunny
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Maester Aemon was not telling Jon to kill any real boy.  I might be getting confused with the book, but he was referencing a previous conversation (I think, it was probably just a longer story in the book) with Jon about how Jon needed to kill the boy in himself and let the adult out.  They didnt' explain it as well, but that is what he was telling Jon to do last night, he was not condoning murder.

 

Who is JonCon?

 

I wish Jorah had made a comment along the lines "damn, he's a lot bigger" or something when they saw Drogon.  Also, when they are approaching the colleseum thing from a distance, you can see a whole bunch of stone men standing at the very top

Edited by Ripley68
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As much the Sansa story angers me and makes me nervous, I found it laughable that Myranda would be a real threat to Sansa when Sansa looked to be a foot taller and Myranda looks so frail, she could be snapped in two if Sansa went into a rage.

 

The Boltons seem to be scary only cause they appear psychotic, while the King's Landing crew were not just evil, but had real power behind them.  The Bolton's don't seem to have any real power outside of their immediate vicinity.

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Ok, let's see.

 

1. That poem about valalryan lovers ignoring the apocalypse for one last hug made me kind of misty. I don't remember it in the books. Is it some incidental material that GRRM has tossed out to appease the hungry readers? Or did a writer on the show whip up just for this episode?

 

2. As usual, any scene with Boltons in it makes me want to take a shower in dragonfire.

 

3. Which incidently, leads to Dany's new husband is going to in effect, be her Reek.

 

4. I don't care if it would have added another season to the show, they didn't have to simplify Tyrion's journey through Essos. Especially when it means Jorah has to get the grayscale. It also eliminates a minor plot involving yet another emergency backup Targaryan.

 

5. Also, what happened to the vikings? By this time in the books, they'd already launched their own Targ acquiring mission.

 

6. And apropo of the last 2 points, this was also where the rise of paranormal power starts becoming obvious. A fire priest can not only produce fire, he can heal. And even a carnival fire eater can now produce fire.

 

7. Also, they're apparently changing the reason that Jon will get the Caesar treatment: not because he seems to be involving the Watch in a family matter, but because he wants to recognize the wildlings as refugees and make peace.

 

8. I am now predicting the the big budget episode for this season will be the Inquisition making Cersei do the Penitent Walk of Shame and the big twist ending will be the murder of Jon. Anyone have a different prediction?

 

9. Of course, if i'm right, then the next season will put us out beyond the books. So maybe it's better if i'm wrong, and those plot lines are suspended for the Sand Snakes and the botched "Marcella for Queen" campaign, the viking raid that threatens the Citadel, and Arya's period of darkness.


Jorah. Damn. They managed to startle me with the Stonemen because they distracted me with the shiny of Drogon. Sneaky.

 

 

I was distracted too. But as soon as i heard the splash i realized what was coming next.



Arya has been on only 2 of these first 5 episodes. Next week, she better kill somebody or I'm gonna be grumpy.

 

Don't! With Cersei's bounty out there, it's a very bad time to be any dwarf.

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I have to say I enjoyed this a lot. Was a little disappointed on a personal level regarding Ramsey's conception, as I was when I read it, but Roose is and has always been a monster. That this was a Bolton pep talk is flabbergasting.

 

Not here for Ramsey Salvatore though. I know I joke about the "Boltons = Vampires" thing, but that's just a joke, okay? I feel like Sansa's presence is going to water him down some but I need him to be his psychotic hobbit self. IW is fantastic in the role.

 

Everything at Castle Black was on point.

Edited by DigitalCount

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I'm curious about the logistics of the report Sam was reading to Maester Aemon.  Like, how the hell did they get that information?  Why would anyone think to send them a raven with that?

 

 

Obviously, they subscribe to the Overseas Bureau of the Braavos Birdcasting Corporation.

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There's been absolutely no offscreen information conveyed in this storyline.  Sansa observed Littlefinger's message in episode 1, and then asked him about it in episode 2, after traveling hundreds of miles together.  In episode 3, she realizes they're going North only when they come within sight of Moat Cailin, and Littlefinger provides no more information about his plans beyond "avenge them" until episode 4, when they're literally within the crypts of Winterfell.  The information he provides being "sit here and wait to be rescued".  Nothing indicates that he's meant to have said anything else offscreen, particularly as if Sansa were meant to be doing anything, like, say, trying to rally the smallfolk, she would obviously have started with that old lady, but their scene in this episode pretty clearly indicates Sansa hasn't made any attempts at sounding her out as an ally between episode 3 and episode 5.

 

All to my point.  We got no information on the conspiracy among Roose, Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister until the Red Wedding happened, yet, they had been communicating and plotting against Robb Stark for a while.  The surprise reveal is not a new thing on TV, and not a new thing on this show, either.  I know that the show sometimes makes it seem like all these cities are a stone throw away from each other, but I think even the casual viewers know there's some distance between Moat Cailin and Winterfell, and we don't know what conversation LF and Sansa might have had on that journey.  Even if it's only a day's ride on the show, that's a day worth of LF / Sansa interaction we didn't see.  A lot could have been discussed then.

 

It could all turn out as you and others think, I'm not saying it won't.  I'm just throwing out the possibility that something else could be going on.  It's worth considering, IMO

 

But that's not how prophecy usually works. The fact that someone is fated to happen doesn't eliminate the need for something to cause it to happen. The prophet just foresees that cause will lead to effect.

 

Even the hatching of the dragon eggs doesn't happens just because it's prophesied. Dany has to fulfill a very specific sequence of events, including offering up three lives for the lives of her unborn dragons, before they'll do their thing.

 

Yes, a cause is necessary, I agree.  I'm just not fond of Melissandre resurrecting him because the prophesy doesn't mention anything about a person being the catalyst.  My favorite theory is that there will be a winter storm while they burn Jon's body (so that he's not turned into a wight) and that's when it happens.  The way the resurrections work in the books wouldn't make a Jon resurrection special enough to warrant him AA status.  If Thoros can bring Beric back to life, why isn't Beric considered a possibility for AA? Or anybody else brought back to life by a fire priest / priestess?  

 

Given AA role and the importance attributed to him, particularly by the worshipers of the burning heart, I think Jon's resurrection needs to be much more spectacular, in order for it the characters (and the readers and TV viewers) to grasp its significance.  It can't just be another run of the mill fire priestess resurrection.

 

Here's an article on Business Insider, talking about the greyscale storyline on Thrones.  Probably the creepiest thing is they show a still from last night's episode where Jorah and Tyrion are sailing through Valryia and identifies no less than 12 Stone Men.  Something I have to check out when I rewatch the show.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-greyscale-stone-men-2015-5

 

And they missed three right below the red square, nestled in the arches of the wall!!!

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I don't think we should expect LFs reasoning for leaving Sansa to ever make sense. He's doing it because D&D didn't want all the Starks sitting this season out in of locations. Maybe they will be able to reveal some plausible grander plan of his but I doubt it.

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Littlefinger had no choice in the matter. Cersei was calling on him and he can't afford to ignore her because it might very well cause Cersei to look closely at his activities in the Vale. He left her with the Boltons because that's when he got the summons.

 

Or maybe the JonCon greyscale doesn't matter, and the Jorah greyscale is meant to be a more dramatic TV stand-in for the Pale Mare, and Jorah will become the Typhoid Mary of Mereen?

 

 

That's what I hope since a diarrhea epidemic wouldn't make for very good TV.

 

I was curious as to why Sansa sortof smirked when Ramsay was obviously discomforted by Walda's pregnancy.  As far as she knows, Ramsay hasn't really done anything wrong, he wasn't at the Red Wedding and she has no knowledge of anything bad or sadistic he's done.  Well, except obviously 'broke' Theon, but she doesn't know exactly what he did in that respect either.

 

 

Ramsey had literally just made theon admit to killing her brothers and then he proceeded to screw with her by telling Theon to walk her down the aisle.  She had plenty of reasons to smirk in that instance.

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I know that the show sometimes makes it seem like all these cities are a stone throw away from each other, but I think even the casual viewers know there's some distance between Moat Cailin and Winterfell, and we don't know what conversation LF and Sansa might have had on that journey.  Even if it's only a day's ride on the show, that's a day worth of LF / Sansa interaction we didn't see.  A lot could have been discussed then.

But we know nothing was, because their subsequent conversation in episode 4 makes clear she wasn't given any details, otherwise she would have known about Stannis.

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But we know nothing was, because their subsequent conversation in episode 4 makes clear she wasn't given any details, otherwise she would have known about Stannis.

 

Again, that doesn't mean they didn't have another off screen conversation before LF left for KL, or that they didn't hatch a base plan on the way to WF, which they later modified with the Stannis revelation, or that they didn't go through the possible options if events X, Y or Z occurred.  Since we can't possibly have seen all the conversations between LF and Sansa since they left the Vale, I don't think we can categorically deny they had some sort of plan, or at the very least a strategy.

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I have to say I enjoyed this a lot. Was a little disappointed on a personal level regarding Ramsey's conception, as I was when I read it, but Roose is and has always been a monster. That this was a Bolton pep talk is flabbergasting.

 

I took it as Roose either reminding his son or perhaps making it clear that "the son is a shadow of the father." 

 

I am disappointed that this wasn't a Roose and Theon scene because it's one of my favorite bits from ADWD. It's so horrifying and just so very Roose-like for him to be telling his son's torture victim all this stuff.

 

Honestly, I have no idea what the hell they were smoking when they thought up the Sansa in Winterfell story. It makes no sense for Littlefinger to have brought her there, let alone left her there. None. We had seasons of him being this guy who supposedly everything that was happening everywhere. But now he's never heard of Ramsay? If he was lying about it, again why? I do not get this. They couldn't even be bothered to write in some lines about how some septon somewhere annulled the marriage. I understand that they wanted to move matters along, but these are professional writers. They couldn't make this more plausible?

 

All of that said, I'm just trying to enjoy the show for what it's become: badly plotted fanfiction. So I did kind of love the gothic horror that was a Bolton family dinner. And I enjoy every single one of McElhatton's scenes. They cast very well. 

 

Normally I'm bored with the Essos scenes, but I loved the depiction of Old Valyria and even though I knew it was coming, I was surprised with the Stonemen's attack. And I like the substitution of Jorah for Jon Connington.

 

Also I care about the Wall again and I didn't think that was possible.

Edited by Luciaphile

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Or maybe the JonCon greyscale doesn't matter, and the Jorah greyscale is meant to be a more dramatic TV stand-in for the Pale Mare, and Jorah will become the Typhoid Mary of Mereen?

 

Perhaps, but then why so much focus on Shireen and her greyscale?  I think a plague is coming to Westeros, Jorah is going to bring it, and poor Shireen is going to be unfairly blamed.

I admit I'm puzzled by the emphasis on greyscale, and either or both of your theories are plausible (as with the Black Death, sailors fleeing Slavers Bay may take greyscale West).

I'd be curious how a white walker or a wight would react to greyscale, or either could get infected with it.

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Well based on the old guys initial denial of information to Brienne I wouldn't be surprised if the North has always kept a sort of Outsiders view towards people making inquiry's.   It explains why LF/Roose think it will be some time before Kings Landing learns of Sansa's remergence.   Though I wonder if The Lannister/Tyrell regime would know by now if they weren't bordering on Out and Out combat with each other.

 

I don't think it's out of the realm for LF to not know of the Bolton's extra curriculars.   He probably thought other than Roose he had a pack of simple northman on his hands that even Sansa could handle in matters of intrigue which she MIGHT be able to do but these guys are INSANE and violently unpredictable.

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I don't think it's out of the realm for LF to not know of the Bolton's extra curriculars.   He probably thought other than Roose he had a pack of simple northman on his hands that even Sansa could handle in matters of intrigue which she MIGHT be able to do but these guys are INSANE and violently unpredictable.

 

Except that Ramsay is not exactly quiet in his uh, hobbies? And again, we've had season after season of Littlefinger, Varys, and Cersei talking about their spies/little birds/friends in the North. This strikes me as exactly the sort of thing that would get around very fast. I realize the showrunners have diverged heavily from the books, but in them Roose Bolton's bastard is known apparently by most everyone as Very.Bad.News. The neighbors of the Boltons know that he hunts women with his dogs. They know he flays people. And they talk about it. Openly.

 

So why wouldn't Littlefinger have gotten wind of this?

 

If I were an ambitious guy who knew he had this one very big game piece in Sansa Stark, leaving her near, let alone marrying her off to this dude is the last thing I'd be doing. Roose isn't the problem. Roose isn't sane either, but he's much more controlled and he's intelligent. Ramsay is not. 

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Rewatching the episode last night, I was thinking how much I look forward to a Roose/Stannis face-off, assuming that Stannis is not trapped by snow on his way south to Winterfell. Roose knows that Stannis is at Castle Black, but does he know that Stannis has the Golden Company with him...and if he does, who told him? Ned said in ep. 1 that a 100 men could hold Winterfell in a siege, and Roose has had it rebuilt, but where are his food supplies, and how long can he hold out? On the show, where are the Lannister/Tyrell armies and where is Randall Tarly, the great general? Will he ride to Roose's rescue? Is Randall Tarly Checkov's gun?  Yes, Stannis had his scene with Samwell to look over Randall's son, and to get info on dragon glass, but perhaps also to remind viewers that Randall is a general who is on the same level as Stannis himself. The show runners have a lot of ways the battle at Winterfell could play out.

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As a book reader the scenes in Winterfell with Sansa are interesting because they are unchartered territory. The Bolton family dinner scene was interesting and layered. Sansa behaved very true to her nature. The revelation of a rival heir to Ramsay may very likely cement Sansa's importance to Ramsay. Sansa does know yet that Ramsay is cray cray. She might have an inkling after the whole Theon display though. Sansa has had an up close and personal experience with this type of behavior (hello Joffrey) as well as the beautiful manipulations per Margary. If Sansa plays her cards right she may get Ramsay to dispose of her brothers killer as well as his unborn child. How righteously beautiful would that be. Once Roose is gone she can deal with Ramsay later?

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I'm not sure what to make of Roose telling Ramsay about his mother. How does that help Roose? Are we actually supposed to think that Roose thought this story would shake Ramsay's confidence? 

I don't think Roose really gives a damn about whether Walda is fat or not but at the same time he seemed like he wanted to check Ramsay for making those digs about her.

That story was to say that he saw something of himself in Ramsay and that's why he didn't kill him; a great ploy to make sure that Ramsay keeps his eyes on the prize: keeping the North. Their position is not yet secure.

 

 

 

  • Not sure what the point of Myranda is, as a character. She doesn't give us any new insights into Ramsay, and is complete dead weight on her own. Somewhat reminiscent of Ros in that respect, although at least Ros had the purpose of letting Littlefinger give chaotic evil monologues to a random.
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  • So Dany gets engaged to Hizadar after all that, in a super brief scene, with zero build up. The unspoiled viewers are completely confused and I don't blame them. Don't get me wrong, I prefer when the show remains (roughly) on book, but this really needed to be better established.
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  • Glad to see the Stone Men. Unfortunately they looked a bit silly. Too uniformly grey. Looked like a bottom makeup on FaceOff. I can hear the judges griping about the monotone paint job now.
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  • Stannis is almost 100% of the way back to book Stannis at this point, which would merit righteous applause, if he wasn't headed off for a new massive deviation in the form of taking his entire court with him for the march on Winterfell. Okay then! Forced marches through hostile countryside in inclement weather are always improved by bringing along a baggage train of small, ill children and their gormless mothers.
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  • Roose taunting Ramsay with the potential for a new, trueborn son seems completely pointless. Roose is a tactical man with icewater in his veins. Why would he needlessly provoke his emotionally and mentally unstable bastard son? What does he gain?

 

1) I think she is supposed to be that frienemy like Myranda Royce in the books where it's not clear to Sansa if she's just a bitch or if she's truly out to get her...shrug.

2) There isn't need for much build up here, even in the books, when the notion that Dany should marry a meereenese, it's not like there is much build up either. They just cut out the fact of her being told to do so 50x. I don't get what's confusing about this move, it's conquest 101, you become part of the people you conquer so they no longer see you as an outsider and the "us vs them" becomes less pronounced.

3) They scared the bejeezus out of me. But to each their own, I guess.

4) Its not like one little girl and a wife is so much more of a burden. In the show, he only has his army with him, he doesn't have a mini court like in the books.

5) He needed to keep Ramsay in check because he was getting too comfortable and Sansa is not Jeyne Poole. They will get their throats slit if anything happens to her. ANYTHING. That's why he announced the baby, a comfortable Ramsay is a reckless Ramsay, they are not in a position to make more enemies.

 

Sansa has to walk a fine line with how she acts, if she's too antagonist they'll kill her and they'd never buy it if she tries to be friendly. Stoic with a sulky edge is probably the best she can do without over playing her hand. What I'd love to see is some one on one time with Ramsay where she throws a bit of Margaery style flirty manipulation (season 3 Marg /Joffrey not the Marg/Tommen stuff we're getting now). She's learned to manoeuvre from the best in Kings Landing and this is the time to put it to work. 

Re: Sansa

Um, guys, the Bolton can't do shit to her. Yes, Ramsay can try and intimidate her but they know that the piece of paper declaring them Wardens doesn't mean shit unless they are making an alliance with a Stark. One house against the rest of the North plus Stannis equals up the creek without a paddle. She could ask Ramsay to clean her chamber pot and they would have to bite their tongues. Ramsay is not the danger here, Roose is. But Roose knows that right now, they can't touch her. It's only if Stannis loses that she will have to watch her back in the long term. At this moment though, she is very right to assert the fact that she has the home advantage. I think we have been conditioned to how they do things in Kings Landing. In Winterfell, with the Northerners, being direct and straight with people is a good way to go. All the Stark supporters will be much happier to help the proud daughter of Ned Stark than a cowering puppet of the Boltons.

 

Her marriage to Hizdahr is so, so stupid politically. His power comes from her only, she gains nothing from marrying him that she would not gain by actually using him as an advisor. And if she wants to realistically rule Westeros after using her convenient dragons to burn as many people who stand in her way as she can, than she will need to connect herself to the people in Westeros with power. As she has no family or heirs or Baratheon lieutenants, she needs to marry politically after conquering. Each marriage lessens that possibility.

But she could not care less about the situation in Westeros or what will happen to Slaver's Bay after she leaves. So she chooses to marry Hizdahr for extremely shortsighted ends. There is no long game with her at all.

Um... He's head of one of the ruling family, his power comes from his name. He, in practice, has more power than her right now, because Daenerys is pretty much queen in name only, she has the illusion of power. The freed men hate her now and the other Meereenese want her out. She can't even leave the sector she's in. Remember in what time period the story is, the power of those with crowns is built on the implicit contract between the rulers and the ruled. If nobody listens or obeys the queen, does it matter if she's the queen? Heck, is she even a queen at all without a court or subjects? Those who want to listen to her, do, and those who don't like her give her the finger and kill her people incognito. Up until now, Meereen has been in a weird state, she could say whatever but if enough people in the City are against her rule, nothing she does will be effective. Hopefully it will transition into being in acquisition and really becoming "hers". She took too long to assert her power, they don't take her seriously anymore because after her grand standing with the 163 masters, she hasn't done much to put her foot down and say to the ex-masters "you need to get on board or you're done". On top of that, she executed one of the freed men for having killed a Harpy (due process even if we don't all like it, though she really should have done that in private). They had no reason whatsoever to take anything she said seriously and stop the killings. Now, if Hizdar vouches for her, someone the other Meereenese don't want to offend or hurt, they can't go against her as openly. Also, what she did when Barristan died with the dragons is going to help keep her ideals alive. Otherwise, yum...

 

She's already conquered Meereen, that's where she needs to establish success first before even thinking of doing it well in Westeros. I don't see how each marriage weakens her politically, Margeary has had three consecutive husbands because the Tyrells are stinking rich. You think people will be saying that she has three dragons but tut tut tut, she's been married before so we don't need the potential prestige of our children being dragon riders, thank you very much. Yes, in the long term, the whole Meereen thing makes no sense outside of the psychological impetus for Dany to eradicate slavery as she was basically sold to Drogo. Endgame wise for Westeros, this storyline shouldn't happen but that's the books man. As for short/long term good results, i think she feels like the epicentre of the slave trade reformed with abolished slavery would be pretty high on her list of accomplishments regardless. Not saying she will succeed but at least it's a worthwhile goal.

 

 

But the Boltons are perfectly aware that Sansa's on her own territory - and they aren't. They know the Starks were loved and the Boltons loathed. It would take much stupider men than Roose and even Ramsey are not to realize that Sansa could be a focus for unrest in Winterfell. They'd want to deter her from it.

 

Which is why I worry that the show will turn this old woman into one of Ramsey's overly elaborate sadistic ploys for cheap shock value. IMO, it would be just like Show Ramsey to use the old lady as a decoy to pull the rug out from under Sansa's hopes with an Evol Mwa-Ha-Ha! We've seen he likes psychological torture as much as physical torture, and IMO it would be well within what this show has written previously for Ramsey to decide that if he can't outright torture Sansa physically he can at least terrify her to keep her in line.

 

I can just imagine the scene.

Ramsey: "So you thought you could get the peasants to turn against us?" *does horrible bloody thing to some helpless innocent stand-in.* "Don't even DREAM about betraying us." And then defending his actions to Roose, "Well, I didn't HURT her. Just wanted to make sure she properly respected us."

 

Ok, don't get what that proves against my point. If someone in your camp has the potential to cause unrest, and you can't hurt them, you make sure they don't feel the need to cause said unrest. Your argument has a confirmation bias, you're already scared the whole washer lady thing is a ruse and you're reasoning your way backwards to how it would be possible. As it stands, the Boltons doing anything bad to Sansa means undermining their own position, and they have no allies or backing. The reason they're not being attacked is because people don't want to risk Sansa'a safety. It makes zero sense to spook her, and Roose is aware of that. And as this episode demonstrated, Roose knows how to control Ramsay.

So Sansa's big trauma would be... backstabbers and trickery exist? Huh, she would never have guessed what with her believing Joffrey when he said he would give mercy to Ned and then chopping off his head. Yes, he could hurt some innocent stand in but Sansa has been tortured and tormented herself, other people being tormented is not going to be her breaking point. If anything, she will figure out they can't lay a finger on her and that's why they are using a proxy.

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I liked that they've had Roose talk about his rape of Ramsey's mother. Way too many people love this bastard. Hopefully it would shut them for a while.

 

As one of those people who find the character enjoyable (and the actor's voice irresistible), I can say that this scene hasn't changed a thing for me.  I've read the books so I know how awful Roose is (and how well he's managed to hide it from people like the Starks), but just because he's vile, doesn't mean he isn't fascinating.  His ability to mask that side of his character for as long as he has is part of what makes him interesting to watch, far more so to me than someone like Ned Stark or Joffrey Baratheon (or Ramsey Snow/Bolton for that matter).  I like Roose AS A CHARACTER for this reason; I agree that as a person, he's only a step up from Ramsey, whom I find much less enjoyable to watch.

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[snip]...you're reasoning your way backwards to how it would be possible. [snip]

 

Yes. Thank you. That's exactly what I see happening over and over again with the tension between people who are just enjoying the show and people upset about the adaptation. I feel like people who know the books, and know them well, have studied them, re-read them, etc, keep making the worst assumption possible and then reason backwards to show how it's possible or plausible. The thought process is, "D&D are horrible people who hate women, children, puppies, and rainbows whose sole goal in life is to bastardize the brilliance of the pure cinnamon roll that is George RR Martin and his books which aren't even remotely rapey, misogynistic or horrible. Therefore, D&D's terrible fanfiction show is going to have Sansa brutally raped by Ramsay."

 

And I realize that is a complete exaggeration, but it fully expresses my frustration. The show is shaping up and it's getting characters where they need to be for endgame, but they are doing it in a different way. A way that is more visual, more satisfying to the viewer and cuts the dead weight. Jorah gets greyscale because the purpose of his book character is not invalidated by that and it allows the show to eliminate a long and unnecessary plot and keeps them from introducing even more forgettable characters. It works. I don't know Sansa's ultimate character purpose, but the people who do have determined that having her marry Ramsay helps her fulfill that purpose (and moves along other story lines).

 

There has been such a long wait between books that people have created fanon ideals of certain characters and what they are becoming. When the show breaks from those fanon creations, there is an uproar. 

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Yeah, I feel as if the more sadistic tendencies of the Bolton nest are just rumors the further one gets from the Dreadfort. I find it perfectly believable that people would be unsettled by them and that Baelish doesn't know about Ramsey despite this. He's only been a Bolton for like, what, two months? The only thing notable about him would be his military exploits.

Look at Show!Stannis' knowledge of Sam, who by right should have inherited Horn Hill. Knowing that Sam is Randyll's son doesn't mean that he knew intimate details about House Tarly, even though Sam looked like he wanted to vomit when the subject of his father came up. And that's a legit heir. I thought only a couple of people here and there knew about Lady Hornwood, for example.

If we take Theon's "escape" and recapture as an example of Ramsey's MO, well, he killed all the possible witnesses. He did the same at Moat Cailin. And Theon didn't even know him while tied to the symbol of his House, after having been a Northerner for longer than an Ironborn. Couple this with Roose working the propaganda machine and Ramsey's just some guy as far as Baelish knows.

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Rewatching the episode last night, I was thinking how much I look forward to a Roose/Stannis face-off, assuming that Stannis is not trapped by snow on his way south to Winterfell. Roose knows that Stannis is at Castle Black, but does he know that Stannis has the Golden Company with him...and if he does, who told him? Ned said in ep. 1 that a 100 men could hold Winterfell in a siege, and Roose has had it rebuilt, but where are his food supplies, and how long can he hold out?

Sansa is allegedly Littlefinger's protege, and in Garden of Bones, Season 2 Episode 4, Littelfinger told Renly, "I understand that you don't like me, and while that saddens me greatly, I did not come here today seeking your affection. When you march on King's Landing, you may find yourself facing a protracted siege or... open gates."

Of course, given how Brienne feels about Stannis, Brienne might feel Sansa is just as in need of protection from Stannis as from the Boltons.  So perhaps Brienne does something that impedes Stannis. Or perhaps, to square the circle, Sansa orders Brienne not to kill Stannis.

I don't know.

 

On the show, where are the Lannister/Tyrell armies and where is Randall Tarly, the great general? Will he ride to Roose's rescue? Is Randall Tarly Checkov's gun?  Yes, Stannis had his scene with Samwell to look over Randall's son, and to get info on dragon glass, but perhaps also to remind viewers that Randall is a general who is on the same level as Stannis himself.

In High Sparrow earlier this season, Roose told Ramsay, "Tywin Lannister is dead. The remaining Lannisters are a thousand miles away dealing with that fact. They've never once in the history of the Seven Kingdoms sent their army this far north. If you think they will for us, you're a fool."

Given that, I don't know why Randall Tarly, a Tyrell bannerman, would ride to Roose's rescue after Cersei manufactured a falling out between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.

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Re: Sansa

Um, guys, the Bolton can't do shit to her. Yes, Ramsay can try and intimidate her but they know that the piece of paper declaring them Wardens doesn't mean shit unless they are making an alliance with a Stark. One house against the rest of the North plus Stannis equals up the creek without a paddle. She could ask Ramsay to clean her chamber pot and they would have to bite their tongues. Ramsay is not the danger here, Roose is. But Roose knows that right now, they can't touch her. It's only if Stannis loses that she will have to watch her back in the long term. At this moment though, she is very right to assert the fact that she has the home advantage. I think we have been conditioned to how they do things in Kings Landing. In Winterfell, with the Northerners, being direct and straight with people is a good way to go. All the Stark supporters will be much happier to help the proud daughter of Ned Stark than a cowering puppet of the Boltons.

The show hasn't done a good job of showing us that there are all these other Northern lords and that nobody really likes the Boltons.

 

The problem here is that Ramsay doesn't really play by anyone's rulebook. He can go on and on about how "Reek" is more valuable to them than Theon, but that's just a justification that he came up with after the flaying, castration, and it's one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense on close examination. Roose knows that. The way that was played out, it seemed that he just was like, okay that bridge is burnt, moving on here.

 

Now the funny thing is that if Roose had been without a wife and Sansa was married off to him, I think she'd be in a much better position--at least in terms of not coming to physical harm. But she's not marrying Roose. She's marrying Ramsay, who is not that bright, or self-controlled, or possessed of a lot of game playing skills. He's a thug and a bully and shrewd rather than intelligent.

 

He's of the Joffrey variety, perhaps a bit smarter, but there are grapefruit that were smarter than Joffrey.

 

She is not safe. And the Boltons can do all manner of things to her. Also, once she produces a child, her value diminishes--quite rapidly. Same as it would have with Tyrion Lannister.

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There are a number of characters and things the show has done right, but lately, TV Stannis is winning for me. I didn't enjoy Book Stannis, but on the show, he's become one of my favourites to win the throne. His moment with Shireen last week and now him marching to the North. Oh, Stannis. Please stay alive long enough to kill some Boltons.

 

Love the Valyria-Drogon scene. Poor Jorah! I was having fun with him and Tyrion on that boat up til the grey zombies showed up.

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As a book reader the scenes in Winterfell with Sansa are interesting because they are unchartered territory. The Bolton family dinner scene was interesting and layered. Sansa behaved very true to her nature. The revelation of a rival heir to Ramsay may very likely cement Sansa's importance to Ramsay. Sansa does know yet that Ramsay is cray cray. She might have an inkling after the whole Theon display though. Sansa has had an up close and personal experience with this type of behavior (hello Joffrey) as well as the beautiful manipulations per Margary. If Sansa plays her cards right she may get Ramsay to dispose of her brothers killer as well as his unborn child. How righteously beautiful would that be. Once Roose is gone she can deal with Ramsay later?

I think it makes more sense for Ramsay to go first rather than the other way around. If Roose isn't around to help keep Ramsay in check then I imagine he'd be a lot scarier to deal with and wouldn't necessarily see the sense in treating Sansa well. 

 

Too true that Sansa's position wouldn't be as secure if she gave birth to a healthy son right away. 

 

Um, guys, the Bolton can't do shit to her. Yes, Ramsay can try and intimidate her but they know that the piece of paper declaring them Wardens doesn't mean shit unless they are making an alliance with a Stark. One house against the rest of the North plus Stannis equals up the creek without a paddle. She could ask Ramsay to clean her chamber pot and they would have to bite their tongues. Ramsay is not the danger here, Roose is. But Roose knows that right now, they can't touch her. It's only if Stannis loses that she will have to watch her back in the long term. At this moment though, she is very right to assert the fact that she has the home advantage. I think we have been conditioned to how they do things in Kings Landing. In Winterfell, with the Northerners, being direct and straight with people is a good way to go. All the Stark supporters will be much happier to help the proud daughter of Ned Stark than a cowering puppet of the Boltons.

I don't know if the show has well established that the Boltons have zero allies apart from the Lannisters who likely won't come to their aid if shit is about to go down. 

 

Didn't Ned say that Winterfell could be held by a small group of men? Leaving aside for a moment that Sansa might find a way to get the gates opened, couldn't Roose bank on the fact that winter will keep him from being besieged by any army for long or maybe even at all? 

 

Now the funny thing is that if Roose had been without a wife and Sansa was married off to him, I think she'd be in a much better position--at least in terms of not coming to physical harm. But she's not marrying Roose. She's marrying Ramsay, who is not that bright, or self-controlled, or possessed of a lot of game playing skills. He's a thug and a bully and shrewd rather than intelligent.

I agree, I touched on this in an earlier post. I think if Roose had known that Sansa would come into their household that he would have had Ramsay paired up with Walda instead while he would have married Sansa himself. I agree too that he would have treated her better. Unfortunately for Sansa, all she sees is Robb's murderer (totally natural and understandable) so she automatically thinks that Ramsay would be the better choice in a situation where she's forced to choose and IMO she couldn't be more wrong. They both suck and are horrible choices but I don't think that Roose will be cruel to Sansa in the way that I predict Ramsay will be. I was super nervous for Walda when she ended up with Roose and so far he seems to be treating her decently. Sansa also wouldn't have had to deal with the unpredictable danger of Myranda. Who knows what that one is capable of. 

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Is there any chance - any at all - we are going to get to see Sansa kill Ramsay?  I really, really want this to happen this season.  Hell, I'm guessing if she did and couldn't cover it up, an accident might indeed happen to Walda.

 

But seriously, I know the good guys can't always win but I want the Bolton's dead and Starks in control of Winterfell this season - my personal preference would be that as Stannis marches on Winterfell, Stark bannermen start joining him left and right and one of them carries Rickon and Shaggy Dog with them so that Ramsay and/or Roose can get their throats torn out by a Dire Wolf.

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I don't know if the show has well established that the Boltons have zero allies apart from the Lannisters who likely won't come to their aid if shit is about to go down. 

Right before they shift to the scene where LF tells Sansa he has her betrothed to Ramsay, Roose tells Ramsay that their house alone can't win against the whole North and that Tywin kicking it means that they are not being backed by the Lannisters anymore.

 

Re: Sansa

The show hasn't done a good job of showing us that there are all these other Northern lords and that nobody really likes the Boltons.

1) Only desperate people who can't find anyone else to do that specific job ask for LF's "help". The fact that Roose was pretty much saying to LF "you're my only friend" makes their position very clear. Roose accepts this arrangement because he hopes to have Lf's support with the Vale.

2)The first Bolton scene of the season we have, Ramsay just came back from having to flay 2 or 3 people to collect taxes because they are rejecting the Boltons' rule.

3) If they only show Bolton men around winterfell, no Frey sigil or other northern sigil, the implication is that they're on their own. 

 

I seriously don't know what more the show can say/show to clearly telegraph that right now, LF is their only friend, and we know how he really feels. But if others don't find that enough evidence well, agree to disagree then.

Maybe I just completely reject the idea of Sansa in constantly imminent danger again but I really don't think she has to be worried for now.

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I think Sansa is going to light her candle at the exact time Brienne has Stannis in her sights, while he's outside the gates of Winterfell, and Brienne will have to choose between her vow of revenge or her vow to Catelyn. Similar to how in the books she had to choose sword or noose and save Pod and Hyle Hunt or Jaime. 

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I think Sansa is going to light her candle at the exact time Brienne has Stannis in her sights, while he's outside the gates of Winterfell, and Brienne will have to choose between her vow of revenge or her vow to Catelyn. Similar to how in the books she had to choose sword or noose and save Pod and Hyle Hunt or Jaime.

1) I love that spec.

2) I will marry that spec if at some point getting to Sansa involves climbing somewhere with a rope, and Brienne has to look back and forth between the rope and her sword (revenge on Stannis).

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1) I love that spec.

2) I will marry that spec if at some point getting to Sansa involves climbing somewhere with a rope, and Brienne has to look back and forth between the rope and her sword (revenge on Stannis).

Would it be too corny if they had a Jaime "So many vows" voiceover while Brienne was looking between the two?

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Right before they shift to the scene where LF tells Sansa he has her betrothed to Ramsay, Roose tells Ramsay that their house alone can't win against the whole North and that Tywin kicking it means that they are not being backed by the Lannisters anymore.

That's the scene I was referring to in my post. I was saying apart from that. 

 

It's enough for me to understand that LF is their only real ally at present but I'm not sure if the Unsullied will necessarily get that. 

I think Sansa is going to light her candle at the exact time Brienne has Stannis in her sights, while he's outside the gates of Winterfell, and Brienne will have to choose between her vow of revenge or her vow to Catelyn. Similar to how in the books she had to choose sword or noose and save Pod and Hyle Hunt or Jaime. 

I too love this speculation. I have to think that she'd be inclined to honor her vow to Catelyn since that's the option where she's saving a life that she swore she would protect. 

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[snip] (accidentally snipped that it was fantique above who said this.

I seriously don't know what more the show can say/show to clearly telegraph that right now, LF is their only friend, and we know how he really feels. But if others don't find that enough evidence well, agree to disagree then. [snip]

Exactly. The show has made it pretty clear that the Boltons are alone in the North and if I remember correctly, I think the only other Northern lords who have ever been mentioned are the Umbers, and that was about getting Rickon to safety. They haven't been mentioned since. How many flayed bodies do we have to see around Winterfell before we get the picture that the Boltons aren't very popular in the North?

And just looking at it from the negative, there have been no other lords in Roose's meetings with Littlefinger, no one he has discussed support from any other Northern families. Just by their absence it seems clear the Boltons have no other support. And there were the flayed bodies, just to make it clear how unpopular they are.

Edited by BlackberryJam
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I seriously don't know what more the show can say/show to clearly telegraph that right now, LF is their only friend, and we know how he really feels. But if others don't find that enough evidence well, agree to disagree then.

Maybe I just completely reject the idea of Sansa in constantly imminent danger again but I really don't think she has to be worried for now.

 

I sincerely hope you are right, because the thought of Sansa having to undergo the Jeyne Poole stuff is just too horrific, and yet, given the showrunners we have, I don't think the character is going to be that lucky.

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I agree that Sansa seems safe from physical torture at the moment. But she's not safe from rape right? In fact it's pretty much guaranteed unless Stannis gets there real soon. Marriage without consummation is not valid.

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benteen, thank you for linking that article. I doubt I ever would have noticed all those stone men on my own. I also only saw the one on the ledge. That is just fabulously creepy!

 

Damn. They managed to startle me with the Stonemen because they distracted me with the shiny of Drogon.


You and Tyrion both!

That shot of Tyrion with the stone man sloooowly standing up in the unfocused far upper left background of the screen was one of the scariest things I have ever seen on television. It was really beautifully done.
 

Stannis is really getting a good edit here, which makes me think he's either going to come out on top at the end, or make a huge sacrifice for the greater good and be considered a hero.


Hee! I love Stannis "getting a good edit." Indeed, I'm sure that if they'd chosen to show us different parts of the hundreds of hours of footage they've shot of Stannis this season, we'd be getting a much different view of him! I definitely agree with your analysis, though: given the hero edit Stannis has been getting ever since the merge, he's almost certainly either going to the Final Four or being set up as our next tragic blindside. Either way, I can't wait to read his post-game interviews so we can finally find out exactly why he really chose to ally with that awful Selyse, and what was up with him throwing Cressen under the bus like that right at the start of the game?

Heh. No, sorry. I'm so sorry, Hanahope; I did understand exactly what you meant. I just associate "getting a good edit" so very strongly with reality television that I couldn't resist.

Stannis: The iron throne is mine by right. I didn't come here to make friends.
 

Aw, I feel badly for Fat Walda. She seems sweet and not as beaten down as most of the Freys always seem to be (to the point where she is blossoming as Roose's Lady, which really says a lot about the Freys), she's trying to host the most awkward dinner ever, and then Ramsay has to trot out Theon to make it even more ridiculous. That whole scene was darkly funny.


She really does seem like a decent sort, if not the sharpest tool in the shed. Trying to commiserate with Sansa over being alone in a strange place was rather idiotic, yes, but it was kindly meant, and that counts for a lot with me. There are so few kind people in this crapsack fictional world that I find myself feeling fiercely protective of them whenever they do appear.

And it looks like poor Walda's going to need some protecting, too. Oh no! Look out, Walda!

I'm also finding it sort of hilarious how little she seems to notice that she's trapped in a claustophobic gothic. I guess after the Twins, even this must seem like a step up. "Thank heavens I finally get to live some place nice," Walda thinks to herself, as she wanders past the flayed bodies in the courtyard and gives a friendly wave to the filthy cowering ruin of a man who seems to be her new son-in-law's best friend, and who likes to sleep in the kennels for some silly reason. "And with such lovely people!" She beams as she fondly thinks of her new husband, whose voice alone suffices to make grown men weep with terror.
 

The Boltons are horrible in the best way possible. I could watch an entire episode of the Bolton Family Adventures.


Oh, me too! I want at least one Dinner with the Boltons scene in every episode for the rest of the season. Make it happen, D&D! That combination of characters and actors make comedy gold. Well, black comedy gold, anyway. Comedy OIL! It's just like if Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf and Saw made a baby together!
 

I was definitely getting a Mad King vibe from Dany in the dragon torching scene. She seemed absolutely mesmerized by the sight of the flames very much in the way that Jaime and other characters describe the Mad King near the end. Throw in the arbitrary torching of the head of a great house and threatening to kill the rest, and how she is really any different from Aerys burning the Starks? Again, I know we're not supposed to think about these things or care because Oh cool, DRAGONS! but she's very much her father's daughter.


Oh, that was totally a Mad King move, I agree. I can't imagine that's not intentional, right? Given that we're only two episodes out from the one in which Barristan told her all about how crazy her father actually was, and how he used to do things just like that? Right? Right?

Ugh, I hate it when I can't quite tell if I'm reading against the creator's intent or not. (I'm fine with reading contrary to intent, mind you! I'm all about subversive readings. I just prefer to know when I'm doing it.) I certainly hope it's intentional, because their willingness to show Dany as tottering on the brink of full-fledged Targaryen looneytunesville is something that I really like about the show, and I'd hate to think that they were doing it by accident.
 

In fairness to Hizdhar...I can see why he would REALLY want Dany dead on a personal level.


“I don’t want to marry you,” Hizdahr wailed. “You had my father crucified!”

He's Sansa Stark through the looking glass really, isn't he? His father was unjustly executed by a cruel and illegitimate tyrant who is now forcing him to marry her.

I know I'm supposed to be sympathizing with Dany here, but as is so often the case with me and Dany, I'm just...really, really not. I sort of want Hizdahr to shove her off a battlement, frankly. It would be a much kinder death than the ones she keeps doling out to people every time she gets upset or frustrated about something.

Ah well, at least she's not having children tortured in front of their parents. Yet. But hey. Give her time. Give her time.
 

I agree too that Hizdahr has every reason to become a harpy now if he wasn't one before and I think this makes it more exciting. I also liked that Dany had the idea for the marriage as opposed to Hizdahr. I actually really like what the show has done with Hizdahr so far. He's more understandable to me in the show than in the book.


I'm loving what they're doing with Hizdahr too. He was such a non-entity in the books, whereas in the show, he's quickly becoming my favorite character in Dany's plotline. Joel Fry is doing such an incredible job with the role. His performance hits a perfect balance of sympathetic, suspect, funny and yet still rather annoying that works really well for Hizdahr. You feel for the guy, yet he's still sort of punchable in exactly the way that extremely privileged people who insist on remaining stubbornly oblivious to the full extent of their privilege always are. There's just a hint of that aggrieved undergraduate "but I'm a liberal, and besides, wealthy white Western men have suffered TOO!" whine in his tone that is absolutely pitch-perfect. Love him.
 

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