Recurring Characters: From Dwarves to Knights to Crickets

[tri4335]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

I like recurring characters, but there was no reason for him to be in this episode.  The scene led nowhere, creating nothing meaningful for Archie nor for Emma.  At this point, I'm wondering if A&E intentionally finds reasons to avoid having Emma share one-on-one conversations with Snow or Charming, because would it have killed them to have Emma speak to one of them instead?  If they want to bring back Archie, create a scenario where ONLY Archie/Jiminy Cricket would work.  It's not like they've exhausted the Pinocchio mythology yet.

I agree that they don't want one-on-one conversations with Snow or Charming because it doesn't fit into the narrative that Regina is so good. If they have conversations then the fans would want them to be real and they would have to address the elephant in the room, which is these people should not be friends with Regina. 

Also A & E seem to look out for actors they like and part of me just thinks they were throwing RS a gig.

[Mari]

They've been pretty heavily criticized for just ignoring the rest of the town.  Having Archie do that scene also allowed them to say they're still using the side characters, kind of like they did with Granny and Leroy at the start of season five.

Archie just made a little more sense there than Grumpy or the Dopey Tree would have.

[Curio]

13 minutes ago, Mari said:

Archie just made a little more sense there than Grumpy or the Dopey Tree would have.

Speaking of Dopey the Tree... During the special before the episode, A&E went off about how no one ever asks what happened to Dopey and that no one cares about him. Clearly, they've never read these forums. (What can we do to lure them over here?)

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

(What can we do to lure them over here?)

Spam threads with "SWAN QUEEN FOREVER" and "Regina is the best, most awesome, amazing thing to ever have existed in the history of existence"

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

What can we do to lure them over here?

I'd say direct a tweet at them with a link to some criticism here and enough of a hint of what it says to get them intrigued. They don't seem able to resist defending themselves or justifying themselves.

[Curio]

Quick...someone with a Twitter...get on this.

[Shanna Marie]

I'll admit, I'm tempted, but I use my twitter professionally, so I don't really want to get into a public spat with a TV writer, especially one who has another writer I've actually worked with on entirely unrelated projects on his staff.

[KAOS Agent]

Speaking of Tree!Dopey, how is he? Did they address his status somewhere and I missed it? Maybe he was at Granny's at the end? And didn't one of the dwarfs tweet something about how he was leaving the show? So are there only five dwarfs available now?

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Speaking of Tree!Dopey, how is he? Did they address his status somewhere and I missed it? Maybe he was at Granny's at the end? And didn't one of the dwarfs tweet something about how he was leaving the show?

I thought it was Dopey who said he was leaving, so we still have six and I guess Dopey remains a tree.

[Camera One]

As if they care about Dopey.  They had the perfect opportunity to provide something for Granny and the Dwarves to do in Camelot, but nope, we needed time for Merida.  

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Mulan is overrated. Like Merida, she doesn't have the "heart" her source character does. In the movie, she joined the army to save her aging father. On Once, she's a soldier because... girl power I guess? She's a generic "strong independent woman warrior" who often feels shoehorned into the story. She was first introduced with Phillip and Aurora, which was random. Then Fergus hired her to train Merida, which was also random. Then, finally, she met up with Red at the Hut of Coincidences. I feel bad that she's always the third wheel, but there's not much else to her. (Other than the LGBT element, but that's seen as a bigger deal because of the meta.) Her writing is boring and I wouldn't cry if I never saw her again. I doubt we're getting a full-on Ancient China saga ever.

 

3 hours ago, CCTC said:

I also thought the actress who played Mulan was a little flat, especially when she first appeared (she got a little better over time).  She never really grabbed my attention, which could have been largely due to the writing, but I just don't think the actress had much charisma.  I just saw her on an episode of Gotham, and I don't think she added much there either.  If they are going to have a recurring character appear from time to time I would rather it be Red.  Actually, I would have rather they kept Red on the canvas than Belle.

Taking this from the Unpopular thread of randomness.

Mulan has actually grown on me.  I definitely agree she lacks the heart and personality of her source character.  But a lot of that has to do with Mulan never getting a backstory (though given how A&E always destroys quality parent-child relationships eg. Belle/Maurice... I'm not hopeful they will bother).  I thought her scenes with Merida actually made that episode more tolerable.  Her writing is random, but I would still like to see her story.

I'm watching her bland character on "Gotham" right now, and I can see how an actress would choose actually getting screentime over the piecemeal nothingless she gets on "Once".  Another wasted opportunity... heck, as the Savior of Fictional Ancient China, she could also have the shakes with Emma and Aladdin.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Why are the dwarves the only ones in Storybrooke besides Emma going to Archie for therapy?

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Why are the dwarves the only ones in Storybrooke besides Emma going to Archie for therapy?

They're the only secondary characters whose names the writers remember?

I do find it amusing how much everyone is on Emma's case about therapy and no one has suggested that Belle work some things out about her relationship with Rumple and why she keeps going back to him, or that Regina and Zelena should maybe get some family counseling, or that Hook might have things to work through after being forced to be the Dark One and dying and being tortured, and all, not to mention his self-loathing and inability to forgive himself. Or, really, all the cursed people trying to integrate their dual identities. Emma may be the most stable person in town.

[KingOfHearts]

It has occurred to me that Aladdin is, for all intents and purposes, Will Scarlet. He's an honorable thief in love with a royal. Half of Rumpbelle uses him to steal a possession of the other half. His accent is even similar-ish. The resemblance in character puts salt in the wound for me. Will couldn't have a decent story but he can get replaced by Will Scarlet 2.0.

[KingOfHearts]

It's strange that Archie is always one of the aggressors in the rabble. He is just thrown in there with Granny and the dwarves. For example, he wanted to leave Storybrooke in 2A, and another time he was yelling at Snow about the wall in 4A at the "fireside meeting". Sometimes he's the soft-spoken therapist meant to mediate, and other times he's instigating. A&E sure love to abuse their characters.

I was watching 4A and forgot Will Scarlet was in it. When his first scene came up:

Edited March 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

It's strange that Archie is always one of the aggressors in the rabble. He is just thrown in there with Granny and the dwarves. For example, he wanted to leave Storybrooke in 2A, and another time he was yelling at Snow about the wall in 4A at the "fireside meeting". Sometimes he's the soft-spoken therapist meant to mediate, and other times he's instigating. A&E sure love to abuse their characters.

I remember in 2A AND 4A, that was totally WTF both times.  Especially the Blue Fairy driving to the town line in "We Are Both"... there is no way.  The Writers give even less thought to the supporting characters than their main characters, who are already plot-driven.  There was also Granny and Grumpy harping on Snow to turn the power back on in 4A. Or the Dwarves declaring that Storybrooke was so peaceful in 3A because Snowing were gone, but not mentioning Rumple and Regina.  I think in all of these cases, the problem is lack of worldbuilding.  They had no townspeople characters who weren't in Snowing's War Council, so they use them for other purposes based on their need.  They scrounged up a whole mob for "Child of the Moon", but that fell flat as well since it was a bunch of nameless extras with the exception of King George.  

[Souris]

Perhaps part of the reason we didn't get much Jafar is that Oded Fehr just popped up on 24: Legacy to start what is clearly multiple eps. Dunno when that was filmed, but there ya go.

[Camera One]

Why would he choose "24: Legacy" over such a rewarding experience on "Once".

[Souris]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why would he choose "24: Legacy" over such a rewarding experience on "Once".

A wise agent?

[RadioGirl27]

On 21/3/2017 at 4:23 AM, Souris said:

Perhaps part of the reason we didn't get much Jafar is that Oded Fehr just popped up on 24: Legacy to start what is clearly multiple eps. Dunno when that was filmed, but there ya go.

This mades me so mad. If they were going to use Oded so little, they could have worked around Naveen's schedule and not recastJafar. Miguel Ángel Silvestre, the actor who plays Lito in Sense8, was able to come back for the last episodes of Velvet (a Spanish show where he played one of the main characters), so for two or three scenes, they could have tried to keep Naveen.

[orza]

Naveen Andrews can only take on other work if the studio he is under contract with for Sense8 gives him permission to do so. Eddy said at Comic Con, I believe, that NA was not available to them so they had to recast. Contracts are negotiated individually. Maybe Silvestre had it written into his contract that he could guest star in his old show, time permitting, and Naveen didn't have the foresight or clout to do that with Once. Or maybe he had moved on and had no interest in reprising the role of Jafar.

Oded Fehr is not under contract. He can take on whatever work he wants and is not obliged to wait around for any one studio to give him more work if he gets other offers.

[Mathius]

17 minutes ago, orza said:

Or maybe he had moved on and had no interest in reprising the role of Jafar.

I could have sworn I read or heard somewhere that he said he would have gladly done it if he could, but his current work makes it impossible.

Quote

Oded Fehr is not under contract. 

This is true. Even Deniz and Karen (Aladdin and Jasmine) are under contract as recurring characters, but Oded is a guest star.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Mathius

[orza]

Karen and Deniz are guest stars, too. They may have committed to multiple episodes but that is not the same as being under contract as a series regular. They are free to take whatever other work comes their way.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Part of me still wishes it's the Jekyll/Hyde thing. That would be so much more interesting than the Regina/Evil Queen stuff. Maybe Blue purged all the dark magic from herself, and she didn't realize that it manifested into a being. Then maybe Dark!Blue pretended be a good fairy for a while.

Taking this non-spoiler part to this thread.

I would like that as well.  The actress playing the Black Fairy is pretty good, but it's more fun to see more of the supporting characters.  Considering how uptight Blue is, there's a whole backstory to be borne from that.  I like that she can be ruthless when she needs to be (eg. implying Tink should have let Regina plummet to her death from the balcony).

Heck, Granny should be a full-fledged member of the hero team by now.  

With a lot of good shows, by the second season, they were starting to flesh out the supporting cast to create a living, breathing community.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

A&E made some comment on how they treat Disney characters as toys to grab off the shelf. Their mentality, in my opinion, is why they can't keep guest stars or recurring actors. They don't secure important characters (like Red), so the actors go find other projects. Then later, when the writers need them, they're always off doing something else. A lot of times the actor can only come in for a scene or two. Then, on the flip side, the writers lock in actors they don't utilize. (Will, Belle, Robin, Zelena... pretty much everybody but Emma, Hook, Rumple, and Regina.) So those actors become miserable because they're tied up in Vancouver with nothing to do. 

The writers blow up the budget so much with so many new characters every arc. Instead of fleshing out a few characters, we get a whole roster of nameplates to wave at as they drive by. A lot of the contracts signed are a waste of money.

[Camera One]

On rewatch, the sequence with Granny cowering in fear during Regina's musical number was annoying to watch.  That's not the Granny we know and love.

Again, they decided it was sassy to see The Evil Queen snap the necks of two Black Knights.  

I did find it funny that Zelena brought along 2-3 random Munchkins with her in the Season 6 finale.  

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

On rewatch, the sequence with Granny cowering in fear during Regina's musical number was annoying to watch.  That's not the Granny we know and love.

Again, they decided it was sassy to see The Evil Queen snap the necks of two Black Knights.  

I did find it funny that Zelena brought along 2-3 random Munchkins with her in the Season 6 finale.  

It grossed me out when Regina was acting all sensual in front of Pinocchio. Like, ew. That's wrong on so many levels.

I liked seeing the munchkins too because it implied Zelena had reconciled with the Ozians.

[Camera One]

38 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I liked seeing the munchkins too because it implied Zelena had reconciled with the Ozians.

I guess Red and Dorothy didn't make it.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I guess Red and Dorothy didn't make it.

They were too busy finding Red's pack, I guess. (Let's be real, Red is never happy.)

[Rumsy4]

They went to find Mulan and make it a polyamorous relationship. But Mulan had gone to the realm of Always the Bridesmaid, which wasn't affected by Emma's beliefs. Unknown to them, Merida was in that Realm also looking for Mulan, because things didn't work out between her and whatisface. But whatisface follows her to try and win her heart back. In the meantime, genderbent Shang and Mulan have had an adventure, and they fall in love. They all got stuck in that land playing out a romantic comedy during the Final Battle.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

You'd think Red's "friends" would have immediately exclaimed their sadness when they found out the rest of Oz had been swallowed up into darkness.  Likewise, did anyone wonder where Elsa, Anna, etc. were?   LOL at that throwaway line Regina said about seeing someone from Arendelle with snow on their clothes.  It's not new, but A&E aren't writing the characters like they are real people.  They gave the impression that Jasmine and Aladdin had saved a bunch of people "just in time", but that circle of doom at the end had so few people in it.  If that had been the case, Jasmine and Aladdin should have been a LOT more distraught.  What about little Roland out there in Sherwood Forest?  He would have been swallowed up too.  No mention.  I would add in Merida but I'm not sure anyone was actually friends with her.  

[Rumsy4]

On second thoughts, Red and Abrasive 2.0 went to the Underworld and liberated all the poor souls in the River.

 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

You'd think Red's "friends" would have immediately exclaimed their sadness when they found out the rest of Oz had been swallowed up into darkness.  ...It's not new, but A&E aren't writing the characters like they are real people.   

Exactly. That's the problem. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Ariel's character is the bomb, but I wish her story was done differently. The Snow/Regina flashback was pointless for the most part. Snow never interacted with Ariel ever again. Regina only needed the connection to use her to get Pandora's Box. IMO, Rumple would have been a better fit for the Ursula role. While Ariel is great, she's never organically slotted into the plot. Her POV never really matters. Just watch 6x15... why is she even there? The 3x15 flashbacks were the only ones that really gave her depth (No pun intended.) or a reason for her to exist beyond being a plot device.

As far as Ursula's story goes, it was truer to the Little Mermaid, but I was never impressed with it. It's the stereotypical "dad doesn't understand teenage daughter, so teenager daughter rebels" sort of thing. The movie was the same kind of thing, but it had more dynamics to keep it from going stale. Why are there like three Ursula's? OUAT's adaptation of the Little Mermaid is overcomplicated.

Edited May 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

41 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Why are there like three Ursula's? OUAT's adaptation of the Little Mermaid is overcomplicated.

That is probably due to lack of long-range planning and their usual "fake-outs".  Regina-as-Ursula was a fake-out since there was an older Ursula.  But that older Ursula didn't fit what they wanted to do with the Queens of Darkness (where they blew THREE awesome villains at one go and wasted 2 of the 3), so they created the lame-o Ursula which was in turn a fake-out since she was actually redeemed halfway through the arc and disappears, to make it more "shocking" that Cruella isn't.

Though this was an example where they could tell different parts of a single story ("The Little Mermaid") twice.   It was similar with Jafar, where they told different parts of his story twice (once in the spinoff, and then the Aladdin stuff in Season 6).  Given they have run over most of the Disney movies in their cul de sac already, I can see them being forced to do more of this in Season 7 (and future seasons, if ABC is stupid enough to give them more).

Edited May 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Though this was an example where they could tell different parts of a single story ("The Little Mermaid") twice. 

They did the same thing with Frankenstein, which was alright. Though, I found the second set of flashbacks a bit superfluous because we already knew what happened. I feel the opposite for Merida. Her first flashback episode was dull and unnecessary, but The Bear King nailed it.

Edited May 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It was nice to see one of Snow's chambermaids attending Emma's wedding and demonstrating her ballroom dancing skills.  

[KAOS Agent]

I was reading this write up about the Rachel Shelley (Milah) Meet & Greet and thought it was really interesting to hear how little thought seemed to be put into the character of Milah by the writers.

She was given pretty much nothing about the character other than what appeared in the script and came up with her own headcanon to try to flesh out the character. It's fascinating to me that such an important person in both Hook & Rumpel's lives has so little backstory and no POV. Her history doesn't need to be explained in the show, but would it have killed the writers to think about who Milah was as a person with regards to her motivations and feelings so that the actress wasn't desperately struggling to create a real person to better explain her actions to herself. It was very interesting to hear her personal difficulty in making the Hook/Milah first meeting believable in light of what was going on with Bae and her conversation with Rumpel immediately preceding that moment. 

I do appreciate her actually discussing the difficulty in portraying a character without knowing anything, making a believable story in her head to create a three dimensional character and then having it all thrown out when the writers decide to create new backstory that totally throws out everything the actor had believed and/or thought about the character's actions. It sounds like she went a little further in depth about this (what the actor knows v the showrunners), but it could be construed as less than positive, so details were left out. 

[Camera One]

Thanks for posting the link.  I think that really sheds light on how difficult it was to act on "Once Upon a Time".  Even for the regulars, the whole "making up a headcanon only to have it obliterated by the latest script" would apply, right up to the final episode.  It reinforces that the Writers were basically making it up as they went along.  If an actor really loved their character, it would be difficult if they constantly found out new things that contradicted their connection to the character.

[Rumsy4]

I really enjoyed Shelley's M&G. She is another actor who is really great for cons, as she is able to articulate her acting process in an interesting manner. A lot of my Milah headcanons mesh with Shelley's ideas.

I have no idea how much TV actors in general are told about the characters they portray (especially guest stars), but the problem with a show like ONCE is the increasingly WTF retcons and "twists". It's obvious that people like Ginny and Carlye stopped caring after a point. Lana too became increasingly one-note in her portrayal of the EQ. JMo too had nothing exciting this season. It was all shallow and unfun in Season 6.

[Shanna Marie]

17 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It was very interesting to hear her personal difficulty in making the Hook/Milah first meeting believable in light of what was going on with Bae and her conversation with Rumpel immediately preceding that moment. 

I think the fact that we didn't see their first meeting and how that relationship got started to begin with did a lot of harm for the perception of her character. We first see them together sitting in the tavern with his crew, laughing, and then mocking Rumple, where she clearly had been griping to him about her husband. It's hard to tell how long this has been going on and how much is going on -- is she already cheating on her husband, or is she just enjoying some charged interaction with a handsome stranger? Is she in love with Killian at that point, or is his appeal mostly that he's not Rumple? It's so open to interpretation that if you want to see her as a shrew who's cheating on her husband, you can, or you can see her as a frustrated wife enjoying a little bit of fun to make her life more bearable.

The added later scene of their first meeting I think works okay. It might not fit her headcanon, but in a way, it's like her wildest dreams came to life at the worst possible time. She was already frustrated with doing all the work while Rumple got to be the fun dad, then was worried about her son and whether she could count on her husband when she ran into the kind of man she might have daydreamed about while she was toiling away. He was the one who approached her, and he said all the right things. There was a bit of "hello, sailor!" from her because she has eyes and ears, but then she pulled back to reality. At any other time, she might have been tempted, but she wasn't that time because she had other concerns, and he walked away. And then immediately afterward she learned what her husband had done. It may have been that horrible one-two punch -- meeting her husband's exact opposite right before learning that her husband had essentially bartered away her future without even talking to her -- that allowed the handsome pirate she'd met to linger in her mind so that she was receptive to him the next time she saw him. That works better for me than their eyes meeting in a crowded room.

The real problem with that scene was how contrived it was. There really wasn't a good reason for her to have been in the tavern in the first place. Why didn't she just go home with the knife? Why was she sitting in the tavern while her son was sick and her husband was off to get the medicine by any means necessary? They threw logic out the window in order to set up that meeting when, logically, she wouldn't have been in a place to meet Killian during that whole incident, unless maybe they were both shopping for knives at the same time.

[Camera One]

I was watching some convention Q&A's, and saw one with the actress who played Jasmine.  I had liked "Galavant" and was excited to see her as Jasmine, but the show changed all that.  The video reminded me that the actress is really quite delightful.  How did they turn Jasmine into such an annoying broken record?  I wonder if she would have fared better if "Aladdin" had been a half-season arc.  

[KingOfHearts]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was watching some convention Q&A's, and saw one with the actress who played Jasmine.  I had liked "Galavant" and was excited to see her as Jasmine, but the show changed all that.  The video reminded me that the actress is really quite delightful.  How did they turn Jasmine into such an annoying broken record?  I wonder if she would have fared better if "Aladdin" had been a half-season arc.  

I really wanted to see Jafar strolling around Storybrooke with the Evil Queen. That would have been so much more entertaining to watch than Golden Queen. I'm quite surprise he didn't arrive in 6B. His demise in 6x15 was very anticlimactic. (Although I did love how he just stopped giving a crap after being bottled.)

Jafar's post-bottle experience does put a dent in the, "OUATIW hasn't happened yet" headcanon, doesn't it?

Edited June 9, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Jafar's post-bottle experience does put a dent in the, "OUATIW hasn't happened yet" headcanon, doesn't it?

It might still work if you consider OUATIW as having taken place after season 4 -- the reason Will abruptly vanished is that the rabbit came to get him to go save Alice. I don't think the Wonderland story took all that long, so it could have happened while the main characters were off in Camelot during those six weeks, and during that time Cyrus and Alice came and retrieved Will's heart. Then Jafar got bottled and ended up in Ariel's stash. The main thing that doesn't fit with that is that Will wouldn't have had his heart during season 4, but then I don't think he was all that different with or without it. It didn't seem like he was all that into Belle, really, and he wasn't that much more belligerent than normal during Shattered Sight, when he shouldn't have been affected by the spell without his heart.

[Camera One]

Karen David said she went to the audition thinking she was going to play Scheherazade and then she was told there it was Jasmine.  I guess maybe that's usual to cast a role with secret code names, but it would be disappointing if someone had researched Scheherazade to think about how to portray her, only to find out it was for something else.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Karen David said she went to the audition thinking she was going to play Scheherazade and then she was told there it was Jasmine.  I guess maybe that's usual to cast a role with secret code names, but it would be disappointing if someone had researched Scheherazade to think about how to portray her, only to find out it was for something else.

Imagine Amy Manson trying out for Rumple's mother, only to be playing Merida.

[KingOfHearts]

Mulan is overrated. Her character has potential off the charts, but what has she really done? Is she only sympathetic because she's a "strong independent woman" or LGBT? What can really you say about the character itself other than, "they could have done more with her"? The only time we ever saw her POV was when Aurora turned her down. Otherwise, she has always supported other characters. Her arcs have always been determined by the actions of others. She doesn't choose to do anything without being shot down. There was a lot of shouting for her to come back in S4 and S5, and what did we get? Ruby freaking Slippers.

On the Disney side of things, Mulan is very interesting. Most Disney protagonists have the same goal - getting out of their current situation and experiencing something bigger than themselves. (Usually love for another.) Mulan was one of the few who didn't fall into that category. She selflessly went in place of her father. Yeah, she was lamenting that no one understood her, but she wasn't looking to be famous or anything. She just wanted to honor her family. Her romance with Shang was a happy accident. To take such an intriguing character and transform them into a third wheel is pretty low for A&E.

Edited June 20, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Here's past one guest character who would like to be back on "Once Upon a Time". 

[KingOfHearts]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Here's past one guest character who would like to be back on "Once Upon a Time". 

I doubt Disney is ever going to let them touch the Frozen characters again, though.

Edited August 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts