S11.E17: With Or Without You

[maasa]

Oy, the boredom. This has truly become "have it on in the background" TV.

I was totally bored. Nose worm was gross. Owen yelling at Amelia because of his issues with his mother's boyfriend annoyed. Meredith yelling at Alex because of her issues with her husband kissing another women annoyed. Alex allowing Meredith to treat him like crap yet again annoyed.

 

As an Alex fan I don't like what they're turning him into this season: Meredith's bitch who'll only check up on his upset girlfriend when he's done dealing with Meredith's problems. He was nothing like that in the last two seasons. But at least he's an amazing doctor who fights for his patients (when they give him one once in 10 episodes)

He's fully turned. Alex was always the bright spot in the episodes for me but I've lost that because now whenever he is on screen its Meredith going on about her problems and I just don't care.

I really, really, really don't buy the MerDer love. They say how much they love each other, but I have 11 seasons' worth of evidence that they are a dysfunctional duo and I don't see the kind of intense love that we are constantly beaten over the head with.

 

I don't buy it either. She's never been able to even talk to her husband.She runs around talking to everybody else and he broods. Then queue the big speech and everything is all better.

And so Meredith is The SUN and Derek is back to being her doormat (he practically said "You are the SUN - take my balls and wear them on your keyring"). Glad we've cleared that up...

It took all season long for that.

 

I don't think Renee was trying to sabotage the marriage or that we'll ever see her again. She was enamored and got caught up in the moment. She barely knows him.

Edited March 28, 2015 by maasa

[Muffyn]

For a trauma surgeon, Owen has zero control of his emotions.  So many reasons to slap him, so little time.  Yet more evidence he is a terrible lay; he is damn near mortally embarrassed by the thought of underwear.  I know it’s for his mother but it is still just underwear.  Did he bring her tasseled pasties, a thong and a ball stretcher to use on her “boyfriend”? 

 

I really hate when this show has the doctors debate the treatment in front of the patients.  Alex and Mer basically handed liver boy’s sister all the ammo she needs for a law suit.  Pretend you are professionals.  Debate it outside the room.

 

In the flashback, when Derek complimented the researcher and she gave her knowing look to all of the women who turned to look at her – so much hate.  As a woman working in a male-dominated field, I can assure you that we do not see every compliment, even from an attractive man, as some kind of sexual foreplay.  We especially don’t do so when the boss compliments our work.  Would the guys suddenly assume Derek wants a blow job if he expressed an interest in their work?

 

 

 Yeah, you have a research assistant who just thinks: "Oh hey, my hot doctor left his keys and phone." "Let me answer it and not speak of who I am because this will guarantee he kisses me again." Really, Stephanie is worthless and now she is bribing and spying on other cases to find a "cool" one. She has no purpose on the show again and its been 11 seasons. Interns and doctors aren't that bored that they need to find cases that are "awesome". This is Seattle Grace/Mercy West/Sloan-Grey Hospital. Earthquakes, plane crashes, paramedics crash into service bays from brain tumors who are secretly nazis, families get in car crashes by going camping in the death of winter for their daughter's 18th birthdays, church buses magically go off road by them and people sneak guns and bombs in all the time. Just wait during sweep months, Steph and you'll want to run back to Oregon saying: "I want to just treat skin knees!" 

Thanks for the memories!  I had forgotten nazi boy,

[funnygirl]

You know what I don't like? When writers use the whole, "I'm so excited I could kiss you!" "She's so great, I think I love her!" Like, what the hell is that? Could you be any more obvious where this is going to go? Random Researcher did it last night and something like that happened around the time Arizona cheated, too. 

Be a little more creative is all I'm saying. 

 

I actually thought Evelyn Hunt and her young stud were cute and endearing. I mean they are faring way better than a lot of the couples on this show, anyway. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by funnygirl

[candall]

They should honestly just make him a single dad. That's what he really wants. Shonda always blathers on about being groundbreaking/modern family crap, so what's better than that?

This is a great idea!  Owen and Amelia set my teeth on edge.  I just watched the old episode where Owen cheated on Yang and she "forced" him to torture her with every nuanced detail--like watching a bloody car wreck in slow motion, bleh, horrible.  I resented Owen going all grizzly bear on behalf of a mother he appears to neglect.  Six months and Owen hadn't noticed his mom's new squeeze?  You go, Evelyn.

 

The only side of Owen that's appealing is when he zeroes in on a kid.   (Not on the phone, though.)

[Nobodysfan]

This is a great idea!  Owen and Amelia set my teeth on edge.  I just watched the old episode where Owen cheated on Yang and she "forced" him to torture her with every nuanced detail--like watching a bloody car wreck in slow motion, bleh, horrible.  I resented Owen going all grizzly bear on behalf of a mother he appears to neglect.  Six months and Owen hadn't noticed his mom's new squeeze?  You go, Evelyn.

 

The only side of Owen that's appealing is when he zeroes in on a kid.   (Not on the phone, though.)

 

It really looks like he carries on the thing of neglecting his mum with him as stigma and now it´s not that he came back from Iraq as in S5 when he didn´t even tell her he was back.He didn´t even know his mother writes stories,like he has no interest in her life,but then goes all defensive of her because a young man supposedly abuses her. This John is really a likeable man. But why does Mrs Hunt  think he is similar to Owen is beyond me??They have nothing in common. Also what really bugged me is how he kept on dealing with his anger at John while still Amelia and Richard were examining her, he totally ignored it. He also made his mum visibly distraught  when he told her in no way a man like John might love HER or be interested in HER, implying she is not worth it because of most likely her age.... That was extremely rude of him. The writer of this episode is 100% not a fan of Owen.

 

I´m beginning to think Owen is not the man he seems to be. I know as a war veteran surgeon he must have seen horrors,his PTSD and all the stuff he went through - I admired him inS5 how Cristina´s love healed him, but this aggressiveness he has in himself seems to be a part of his nature not caused by PTSD.Even back in S8 when he punched the patient, he even felt good about it. It seems to show that deep inside he is a brute. If Richard  was not there, Owen would have hit John for sure, he was very close. He indeed has hissy fits even in AU he smashed the window for no obvious reason. I think he should see Dr Wyatt again.

 

OA make me vomit all the time. They are using each other only for sex. They really fit each other,one worse than the other.

He combined with Amelia who is aggressive,too - that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen soon. When will they start throwing knives at each other?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[photo fox]

I resented Owen going all grizzly bear on behalf of a mother he appears to neglect. Six months and Owen hadn't noticed his mom's new squeeze? You go, Evelyn.

I thought the implication was that she'd been deliberately hiding the BF from Owen, and would have continued to do so if she hadn't been hurt. She told Joe, "Owen does everything for me," and said something similar to Owen when he gave her the socks and underwear. So I don't think he's neglecting her. The opposite maybe - being overprotective and not letting her live her life.

That's why I rolled my eyes a bit when she said it was a serious relationship. I'm not sure if you can call a relationship serious when that person hasn't even met your closest living relative, who lives in the same city and has a close relationship with you. (If she and Owen were distant emotionally or geographically would be a different matter.)

Plus, the fact that they'd been together for months and her overinvolved son doesn't know tells me they've been hiding, not just from Owen but also from people likely to tell him. Bring that relationship out of the shadows into the light and see how long it lasts.

All that said, Owen was still an overbearing jerk, to them and to Amelia. But I understand his shock and concern.

[candall]

If she and Owen were distant emotionally or geographically would be a different matter.

That's the key question. 

 

I'm going to extrapolate, from John's surprise that Owen hadn't heard of him, that Owen hasn't exactly been over there "doing everything" for Evelyn.  You'd have to be pretty obtuse to miss Evelyn hustling you out the door and hiding your toothbrush on all those occasions when Owen drops by for coffee, visits to fix the screen door and mow the lawn.

 

Like Season5OwenHuntFan--hee--I remember when Owen FINALLY went over to tell his mother he was back from the war.  "Oh, and btw, I'm a surgeon at Seattle Grace now.  Yes, the one on Elm and Vanderhoven."

 

Bottom line, John shares her interest in creative writing, spends time tracking down a rare book she's interested in and makes her breakfast in the morning when she has the weakies.  Owen wants the locks changed and her checkbooks confiscated when he finds out she has a boyfriend.  Who knows Mama best?

Edited March 28, 2015 by candall

[dr pepper]

I hope the writers are done messing with Mer and Derek. Why do they feel the need to torture couples like that? I think they must be the longest surviving couple on the show. Please don't put them through a roller coaster the way you did with Callie and Arizona.

[Madding crowd]

There are tons of scammers and catfishes out there, I'd be worried if I were Owen too. If you ever watch Dr. Phil, every other story is about a seemingly intelligent woman giving her entire life savings to a younger man who "loves her for herself". And I suppose there might be a few good looking 30 year olds who are sexually attracted to elderly woman, but I could probably count them on one hand. It would have made more sense for him to just be a good friend.

 

As for hiding her writing from her son, I can understand that. I have been writing for years and I don't always like telling people about it because you get stupid comments like "I bet you write romance novels" or "how cute". I think a lot of parents and adult kids just don't share everything. I have to contrast this with the story on American Crime where a woman apparently describes her sex life in graphic detail to her mother. I think the truth lies someone in the middle. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Madding crowd

[Starscream]

It wasn't featured all that much in this episode but I'm enjoying the new group of Meredith, Alex, Callie, and Maggie.  It's kind of like a poor man's MAGIC, much more so to me than all the times they tried to resurrect that dynamic with the old attendings or the fab 3 + Jackson and April.

 

I can't believe they spent 3 episodes teasing that non-event in the annals of MerDer.  It was so boring.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Starscream

[Lindseyb12321]

OA make me vomit all the time. They are using each other only for sex. They really fit each other,one worse than the other.

He combined with Amelia who is aggressive,too - that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen soon. When will they start throwing knives at each other?

I cannot get behind Owen/Amelia, only because it seems so so so forced. It's clear they paired them together because Shonda loves both characters/actors, can't do story lines for single doctors well, and wants Owen to have a kid ASAP. So she shoved these two doctors together even though I don't see any chemistry. And It also bugs me Shonda said they were going to move slowly to "respect" what he had with Cristina or whatever...but instead already they have more screen time than Alex and Jo, more meaningful scenes than Jolex have had all season, and I wouldn't be surprised if Amelia was pregnant by the end of the season.

 

suuuuuure. real slow....gag.

[Nobodysfan]

I cannot get behind Owen/Amelia, only because it seems so so so forced. It's clear they paired them together because Shonda loves both characters/actors, can't do story lines for single doctors well, and wants Owen to have a kid ASAP. So she shoved these two doctors together even though I don't see any chemistry. And It also bugs me Shonda said they were going to move slowly to "respect" what he had with Cristina or whatever...but instead already they have more screen time than Alex and Jo, more meaningful scenes than Jolex have had all season, and I wouldn't be surprised if Amelia was pregnant by the end of the season.

 

suuuuuure. real slow....gag.

 

Shonda is a liar,always has been and always will be. Not a long time ago, she said she had no intention of breaking up Crowen - that´s a good one,right - in S8  - then O cheated,C left him, went to Mayo, they divorced,haha?

Also here she wants to go slowly to honour whatever beautiful Crowen had together,haha,even better joke and lie - 2 in 1. OA get and sleep together as quickly as possible,no time wasted here ,no Crowen memory cherished. And she also said she doesn´t push characters together????!!!!! HAHA, for sure.

 

OA are gross together,like two jackass sex addicts, that´s who they are together. "True soulmates" indeed. JMHO 

 

So much anger at how they destroyed Owen,not enough time, not enough space to deal with it. He is forever tainted. He came as an honourable man (although one may still question his behaviour and attitude to Beth) - since S6 he has been consistently destroyed - he became a liar, a cheater, a dishonest man. His love speeches to Cristina turned to be one big joke and lie.

 

I truly liked this tortured war surgeon and how Cristina´s love healed him but then they peeled off layers of him which I hate, and S11 is a proof of him shoving his true colours. Rhimes should not defend him going slowly or whatever,tell the truth that he is such a man who won´t honour love. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[Eolivet]

What is it with the "suddenly appearing family members as patients" this season? I suppose they did the same thing with George's dad, but Ben's transitioning sister, plus Owen's mother within a couple weeks of each other and it's like "This is Your Life: Supporting Grey's Cast Edition!"

 

I did like Owen's mother with a younger lover story, because I'd like to see that normalized on television. The fact that we cast actors that could be the fathers of the women who are their love interests and society doesn't say "boo," but put an older woman with an attractive younger man and society says "Eww" is a problem. Because it's believable that a 60 year-old man is irresistible to a 20-something woman, but if it's a woman in her 60s and a man in his 30s, it's "Wow, date somebody your own age!" is what's wrong with society today.

 

Overall, I found this episode largely forgettable, with the exception of the Meredith and Derek scenes. As others have mentioned, I really liked Meredith saying she could live without Derek, but didn't want to -- it struck me as extremely believable, given her past several episodes. It feels like the writers are trying to say that Derek makes Meredith less "Ellis," or tones down her "Ellis" tendencies. I'm sure others have noted this, but because Ellis seemed to be less "Ellis" around Richard, it's almost like Meredith and Derek are rewriting Ellis and Richard, if they could've ended up together. Conversely, Meredith may have ended up with a more "Ellis" life had Derek stayed married to Addison. I have no idea if the writers were trying for that, but kudos if they were.

 

I enjoyed the past few episodes without Derek, but I will admit Patrick Dempsey adds a presence that just brightens the show, or at least his scenes. I hope he doesn't leave for good -- the show would lose a good deal of charisma and just...star quality if he did.

[Bort]

OA make me vomit all the time. They are using each other only for sex. They really fit each other,one worse than the other.

I don't really care about Owen and Amelia one way or the other but even if they are just using each other for sex, I don't see what's wrong about it. They're two grown adults, if they want to play mattress mambo, let 'em have at it.

[mojito]

It was just a kiss. Big deal. I don't care if he told Meredith or not. It was just a kiss.

 

I, too, like the Callie, Alex, Meredith, Maggie cluster (hmm, the CAMM cluster?)

 

I liked when Bailey was chastising Stephanie for only offering $50 for a case. "We can't even go to dinner for fifty dollars."

 

Richard still seems to be in charge.

 

I would have preferred to have seen Ev with a guy of 45. It would still alarm Owen but would have been more believable.

[fabinpink]

I'm happy for Zola and little Bailey. With Derek home, they finally get out of 24 hour day care.

[photo fox]

I don't really care about Owen and Amelia one way or the other but even if they are just using each other for sex, I don't see what's wrong about it. They're two grown adults, if they want to play mattress mambo, let 'em have at it.

Exactly. This show doesn't do single people well, and I don't need to watch Owen angst about Cristina forever. It was over LONG before she left for Europe. Why shouldn't Owen move on?

I think it's kind of refreshing to have a couple that isn't starting out all OTP.

[kingshearte]

I´m beginning to think Owen is not the man he seems to be. I know as a war veteran surgeon he must have seen horrors,his PTSD and all the stuff he went through - I admired him inS5 how Cristina´s love healed him, but this aggressiveness he has in himself seems to be a part of his nature not caused by PTSD.Even back in S8 when he punched the patient, he even felt good about it. It seems to show that deep inside he is a brute. If Richard  was not there, Owen would have hit John for sure, he was very close. He indeed has hissy fits even in AU he smashed the window for no obvious reason. I think he should see Dr Wyatt again.

This, so much this. At least the last part. PTSD and other mental disorders can have extremely long-term and drastic effects on people's lives (listen to Patrick Stewart talk about his parents for an excellent example of that), so I don't necessarily agree that Owen is just a straight-up asshole, but there is no way that his few sessions with the psychologist and his relationship with Cristina were enough to completely eradicate all traces of his trauma. On the other hand, it's not like I have so much faith in these writers that I think his behaviour over the last several seasons has been a deliberate long-term plan to bring us back around to the fact that he never actually got cured, so maybe I am supposed to just understand that he's an ass.

 

It's just that I really liked him in the beginning, and really don't want him to be.

[Muffyn]

The biggest issue with Owen being an ass is that I don't think the writers necessarily see much of this behavior as him being an ass.  Or, if they do, they don't understand that they make his reactions too extreme and aggressive.  It's one thing if he doesn't approve of his mother's partner.  It's another thing if he stomps around like a three year old and refuses to listen to what he's being told, meanwhile interfering with her medical treatment.  The writers seem to think that we should be cheering when various men on this show act all puffed up and aggro about things - like that makes them more passionate rather than just wholly unprofessional jackasses.  

[AnitaM86]

I think he should see Dr Wyatt again.

Is there any proof he hasn't? Or he has stopped? How exactly does this work? If you're a doctor with diagnosed PTSD, can you drop therapy as you wish?

 

they don't understand that they make his reactions too extreme and aggressive.

 

 

I think some has to do with KMK's portrayal of Owen. He tends to look more aggressive than PD or JC when this kind of scenes are done. Derek and Alex can look a bit like a-holes but Owen almost seems like he's declaring war. 

 

Or perhaps the writers cannot write men well. 

[choclatechip45]

I think the reason why I've never liked Owen is the way Kevin McKidd plays him. Whenever he gets angry he becomes scary.

[Nobodysfan]

Is there any proof he hasn't? Or he has stopped? How exactly does this work? If you're a doctor with diagnosed PTSD, can you drop therapy as you wish?

 

 

I think some has to do with KMK's portrayal of Owen. He tends to look more aggressive than PD or JC when this kind of scenes are done. Derek and Alex can look a bit like a-holes but Owen almost seems like he's declaring war. 

 

Or perhaps the writers cannot write men well. 

 

It´s hard to say whether KMK still intentionally plays Hunt as a PTSD sufferer (as O tries to keep the trauma under control),but hard to say,because this aggressiveness he uses to portray Hunt is very weird. Although 519 - the choking that was brilliantly acted,you could see Owen as far away from being conscious/aware of what he is doing,but here we see he is very well-conscious of his behaviour and it is deliberate. I do believe he has anger issues which are not connected with his PTSD but are deeply rooted in his personality. At one point John even slightly pushed back when Owen  came nearer,then Webber stepped in.It was very scary indeed. His behaviour was simply aggressive, there was nothing hot about his anger. He would have punched him. Also Webber recognised how Hunt sort of bullied Shane in the OR last season after he found out he slept with Cristina. Also in 1102 as he yelled at Maggie, she totally got scared of him. (all different directors of these episodes, hard to imagine they would give him the exact same instructions, it must be his portrayal of Hunt)

 

And they intentionally paired him with an aggressive woman - Amelia who throws aggressive tantrums and hissy fits /on Derek, on Stephanie,even on poor Herman as she didn´t listen to her/, nothing good can come out of this pairing. They can only kill each other - literally.

 

Both are lunatic psychos. Both aggressive and intimidating under the disguise of a nice person. JMHO

Edited March 30, 2015 by Season5OwenHuntfan

[AnitaM86]

It´s hard to say whether KMK still intentionally plays Hunt as a PTSD sufferer

KMK has an intense portrayal at all times. Even when he may not be trying, it comes off that way. I don't think this is an Owen has PTSD characteristic but just as he always seems to be. It's his style, is what I mean. 

 

Amelia who throws aggressive tantrums and hissy fits /on Derek, on Stephanie,even on poor Herman as she didn´t listen to her

It doesn't come off as aggressive to me, it comes out as childish. With Derek it's the little sister/big brother childish. I haven't seen enough of her and Stephanie together to even see this. 

[RedheadZombie]

I hope the writers are done messing with Mer and Derek. Why do they feel the need to torture couples like that? I think they must be the longest surviving couple on the show. Please don't put them through a roller coaster the way you did with Callie and Arizona.

 

I don't mind if they continue to mess with Meredith and Derek, I just want them to do it in a way that makes them stronger.  Happy can be boring.  I want to see them challenged as a couple and a family.  Let's watch them triumph over adversity, and be stronger in the end.  I think it would be interesting if Zola had a problem with her shunt again.  Those were such emotional scenes to watch in season eight. 

 

Even back in S8 when he punched the patient, he even felt good about it. It seems to show that deep inside he is a brute.

 

I have to defend this because I just saw the episode.  The patient was the size of Andre the Giant.  He'd already smashed a beer bottle over a petite woman's head, knocked April to the ground, knocked some other men around, and was in the process of almost killing a little nerdy patient.  Owen took him out with one punch.  I haven't seen this exact scenario, but I've seen one similar.  I once had a violent and out of control patient.  He had to be jumped and taken down roughly by four males.  Did those four guys feel bad about their actions - no.  What's the alternative, a tranquilizer gun?  Calling the police and having him shot?  I don't feel bad about what I saw - no way.  I've been manhandled by more than one patient, and I'm a female - as are most of the nurses getting knocked around out there. 

 

Can you imagine how Derek would have reacted?  No way is he messing up his immaculate coiffure, or risking the tools of his genius by punching someone.  As a recovery room nurse, we used to fend off combative patients while surgeons and anesthesiologists stood far out of the line of fire, yelling commands - "Give him something!  Watch that IV!  What are you waiting for!".

Edited April 1, 2015 by RedheadZombie