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S01.E11: Shonin

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Language nerdery ahead:

 

Pulled out my Japanese-English dictionary and looked up the episode title.  "Shōnin"* is the romanization of a few Japanese words with different meanings, including one that means "witness" -- which given the plot arcs so far, is probably what they were primarily going for -- and others that mean respectively (1) shopkeeper or merchant, and  (2) approval, recognition, or sanction.

 

*Also, the o with a solid line (a "macron") is not in the standard ANSI Latin character set, so that missing is to be expected.

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Good back story. I'm glad they progressed through Ramses' prison years without a lot of time jumps. They have everything in place and almost tied up in a bow, just before the final cliffhanger. I almost wish they would have killed off Cole, just as a twist. I'd rather know that no one is safe in this show.

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Who is Olivia ?  Much like Ramse, she never ages.  But how did she know that he was a time traveler way back in 1988.  Is she from a future jump backwards even further ?  Or from an alternate timeline.

 

Olivia planted the idea of "The Daughters" in Jennifer's mind in order to complete the time loop that would send Ramse back to 1987.

 

And with Ramse's knowledge of history, the Army of the 12 Monkeys was able to profit handsomely over the previous 20 years before 2015.  It also explains how the Pallid Man/Florist always showed up where Cole appeared.

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Oh, my.  Leland with that 80s look (complete with the cocaine!), was a sight to behold.  Part of it might have been me getting use to seeing Zeljko Ivanek with hair.  Not use to that!

 

Odd episode: didn't dislike it, but basically both Cole and Cassie were barely in it, and it was all about Ramse and (as some predicted), is journey into becoming The Witness.  Again, I like this idea, but I just wish the development for it wasn't as rushed and cliched, as it ended up being.  The loyal friend turning into the biggest enemy can be a great story, but when it's all over a wife and kid we barely met, it just doesn't have that much of an impact on me.  Still, I guess I can't complain too much over Kirk Acevedo getting to do his thing.

 

Still curious about these 12 Monkeys folks.  It sounds like Olivia/Striking Woman is running the show, while the Pallid Man is more of a follower.  But, they kept bringing up her father, who sounds important.  And they mentioned something how they are going to bring back the "twelfth", which sounds very ominous.  So many questions.

 

Liked the Goines scene.  Actually felt bad for Jennifer.  Her nuttiness can be entertaining at times, but it really felt like she wanted her dad's love and to be allowed to return to the normal world, but he wasn't having any of it.  It's no wonder that she is in need of some kind of parent, and why Olivia will probably influence her.

 

Royce is running for President, and dumped Aaron due to this history, including his relationship with Cassie.  I'm sure it's only going to get worse for them, now that Cole is back, and Aaron clearly is getting upset over how much Cassie cares about him.

 

Seems like things in the future are falling apart, and the group is splitting up.  I wonder if we'll keep checking back in.  Have to think we aren't done with Jones' story yet.

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Yes, you did, diebartdie. Good call!

 

How funny was Goines's wig in the '87 scenes?

 

Who is Olivia's father?

 

I like how they circled back/forward & tied some things up - as Rhetorica mentions.

 

Did Ramses really not age or did they forget to age him? Is his not aging intentional? I was surprised that he hadn't. Either did she which I didn't even think about.

 

This is the only ep, so far, I watched both showings of. Love the cgi when she put the necklaces together in the sundial thing in the middle of the pool. What does the color red mean?

 

Why did she drug Cassie much earlier, episode wise, so she hallucinated all that red? Why did she want Cassie to see the Witness?

And the last scientist who could make the virus that Cassie found in the storage container. What actually happened to him? Did Aaron get rid of him? Did Olivia shoot him? Did Cassie? I thought she was letting him go & then we either didn't see or I can't remember what happened to him.

 

Thug, I'm having a hard time with Ramses & Cole becoming enemies also. It happened much too quickly for it to be believeable.

 

Is Olivia related to Goines and Jennifer somehow?

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They did a really good job with the timeline and filling in blanks, but that one almost lost me. It would have if Cole died. As it is, Ramse is dead to me. I thoroughly understand wanting to protect your child, but he doesn't know that his son won't exist if there's no virus. It's not like he's directly pulling the trigger on his kid or has to watch someone else do so. His knee-jerk reaction turned into an obsession, and he's willing to sacrifice the planet because of it.

 

Also, I hope they're going to reveal the motivation of the 12 Monkeys for wanting to destroy the world's population. What do they gain? They obviously know the apocalyptic outcome from Ramse, so it's not like "we need to purify the world and start over." The cold, calculated nature of their long-game turns me off.

 

they brought everything full circle, so many details in and basically opened the story up to such a bigger world with both Cole and Ramse stuck in 2015 now with the plague not yet, but soon to happen is just brilliant.  AND it makes perfect sense how we'll get a season 02 now.

 

 

This is what ended up saving it for me. They've refocused the story in a very interesting way.

 

Have to think we aren't done with Jones' story yet.

 

 

I hope we're not done with her story. I'm sure she'll keep trying to re-establish contact with Cole somehow.

Edited by justmehere
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Not my favorite episode, but I like that we got explanations that tied things together while introducing new questions and taking the story in a new direction. Cole and Cassie are my favorites so I'm excited about the possibility of them being in the same time period, for now anyway. I think they've wrapped up the 2043 story pretty well, but I'd hate to lose Jones.

While it was clumsily done, Ramse being the The Witness makes sense. Olivia's clearly running the show. I'm interested to find out what the deal is with her and her father.

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Did I hear Jennifer say "Let my people go" to her father? Ha!

Seriously, though Jennifer was heartbreaking in this episode. I truly felt for all she's been through.

Still not enough Cole/Cassie interaction for me. But I am glad we got some clarity on what sets the plague in motion.

KA plays scary Ramse well.

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Did Ramses really not age or did they forget to age him? Is his not aging intentional? I was surprised that he hadn't. Either did she which I didn't even think about.

Ramse (and Olivia) not aging was a detail that really nagged at me. Maybe it's indicative of the time travel or the serum.

Olivia and Jennifer's resemblance was uncanny, the casting had to be on purpose. Like maybe Olivia is Jennifer's mother (hence Jennifer's future group being called The Daughters) but due to not aging, had to fake her death? But then if that were true, Leland would have recognized her so I don't know…

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Not my favorite episode, but I like that we got explanations that tied things together while introducing new questions and taking the story in a new direction. Cole and Cassie are my favorites so I'm excited about the possibility of them being in the same time period, for now anyway.

Same. I was bored a lot but I think setting it up will make for exciting episodes. I am also excited about Cole and Cassandra being in the same time period with no choice but to stop the plague in real time.  I am not happy with Ramses story because it is awkwardly done and I still don't understand it completely. Ramses basically left his son all alone forever just so that he will get to exist. But, first, what if his son's existance is a horrible one without his mom and dad?  And again, who is to say that his son won't exist without the plague?  If Ramses had done something in the past like mistakenly kill his mother before his was born maybe I could see his urgency but... otherwise it seems ... lame.

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I've been thinking about the Cole / Ramsey relationship. I agree it seemed to have come out of left field when Jose turned on Cole BUT think about it. Cole and Rams had been together most of their lives and thought of each other as brothers. Now think about famous brothers like Dave and Ray Davies or Chris and Rich Robinson, brothers who loved each other fiercely yet also fought each other bloody. It's a common thing even for best friends to have disastrous  falling out over misunderstandings and go from deep love to absolute hate in no time. Love/Hate, same thing in some ways. So Jose Ramsey found his long lost love and the son he never knew. That was real, tangible HOPE for the future and so Ramsey just stopped believing in the efficacy of time travel and can you blame him? All he has to do is wake up in the morning and know "the mission" has FAILED, again. All he has to do is look at his beloved friend, see him dying bit by bit, jump after jump and know "the mission" is more or less a prolonged torture session that Cole seemed to have bought into, like a Stockholm Syndrome victim. I do think Ramsey tried to show Cole love to get him to stop but that failed so Ramsey had to turn that love upside down, turn it into something dark, turn it into hatred in order to stop Cole. He loved him enough to save his life by making him stop, he hated him enough to make him stop by killing him. That's a sad fucking story right there.

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Oh, my.  Leland with that 80s look (complete with the cocaine!), was a sight to behold.  Part of it might have been me getting use to seeing Zeljko Ivanek with hair.  Not use to that!

 

That was one of my favorite things about this episode. But I am totally biased because I am a big Zeljko Ivanek fangirl. I've loved him since his days on Homicide: Life on the Street.

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Olivia and Jennifer's resemblance was uncanny, the casting had to be on purpose. Like maybe Olivia is Jennifer's mother (hence Jennifer's future group being called The Daughters) but due to not aging, had to fake her death? But then if that were true, Leland would have recognized her so I don't know…

 

Here's another theory -- Olivia is Jennifer's actual daughter, and she came back from the distant future and arrived pre-1987 in order to be firmly established for when Ramse arrived and was able to be there to guide and help Ramse along the way.

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...I'm having a hard time with Ramses & Cole becoming enemies also

Most heartbreaking break up ever!

I'm betting on Ramse realizing his team does not have any interest in his son's existence and that he will return to team Cole.

 

...Is Olivia related to Goines and Jennifer somehow?

...Olivia and Jennifer's resemblance was uncanny, the casting had to be on purpose. Like maybe Olivia is Jennifer's mother (hence Jennifer's future group being called The Daughters) but due to not aging, had to fake her death? But then if that were true, Leland would have recognized her so I don't know…

There was some mention of cloning in the episode. Olivia could be a clone of Jennifer or Jennifer's mother, or maybe Jennifer was the first clone of her "mother," with the clones being Leland's attempts to cure his wife's schizophrenia.

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It was a decent enough episode and I understand the whole getting up to speed from Ramse's perspective but there was an awful lot of just replaying things from Cole's perspective while Ramse happened to 'witness'.  Technically he wasn't witnessing because he wasn't there but rather being told about what happened although he already knew having been told by Cole what had happened.  Which was why he allowed all of it to happen because it all had to happen.  Seems really early for a clip show given it really wasn't necessary to play all of those scenes again for us.

 

I actually don't have a problem with the flip of Ramse, Cole's protectiveness over Cassie goes much further than just wanting to keep her around to record something to get the ball rolling in the future and he didn't know her much longer than Ramse knew his son when he started making bad decisions based on keeping her safe.  Also I could have sworn that Ramse's intent was to blow up the time travel device and he was foiled in that attempt.  So going back in time was not his first choice but rather the only choice left to him after the bomb was removed.  There was no way in hell they were going to let him give himself up and walk out of there alive.

 

The season is quickly coming to a conclusion and while this was a nice reveal at this point in the show as usual we are left with more questions than answers.  It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out.  With the way things get cancelled left and right anymore shows like this have to be self-contained in terms of a season while at the same time leaving enough threads available to pull on for next season.

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That's exactly my issue, too, justme, Ramses's kneejerk reaction(s). And yes, why are they doing it? Do they think they will survive? ANd if so, how do they know that?

 

EB, as huge fan of Oz, I have to agree with you. I got a chill seeing Kirk behind bars again. I loved that "I killed you without even touching you."

 

I also was disappointed not to see more Cole & Cassie (didn't have to be them together), but it was a great ep with a lot of info & things happening.

 

Before I forget I have to mention how funny Goines was in 1987. That "Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto" cracked me up.

 

Kariyaki, I was thinking the same thing. Is Olivia Jennifer's mom or sister? In either case though Goines would have recognized her. Otto, I've always been thinking along the lines you came up. It makes sense for Olivia to be another time traveler as she knew about Ramses being the Witness & what was to come without relying on his memories.

 

Shapeshifter, when was cloning mentioned? I must have missed it.

 

I still don't know who the 12 Monkeys are or what that even means.

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Again, I like this idea, but I just wish the development for it wasn't as rushed and cliched

 

Exactly.  I felt like I was watching a Cliff Notes version of the story, run at double speed.  I have no problem with the direction the story is taking but I do have a big problem with the execution of it.  The first eight episodes were exciting but still took time building the relationships, then BAM! Elena, BAM! Kid, BAM! Kill Spearhead! BAM! Betrayal.  It's like they realized they were running out of episodes and didn't know if they'd get another season and so started cramming everything in that they could.

 

Leland Goines with that wig...All I could see was Henry Winkler.

Edited by solea
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Who is Olivia ?  Much like Ramse, she never ages.  But how did she know that he was a time traveler way back in 1988.  Is she from a future jump backwards even further ?  Or from an alternate timeline.

 

I'm still kind of curious how it is that Ramse isn't aging. And what was up with his hand?

 

As to Olivia, yes, a lot of questions there. Could Olivia be Jones' daughter somehow?

Liked the Goines scene.  Actually felt bad for Jennifer.  Her nuttiness can be entertaining at times, but it really felt like she wanted her dad's love and to be allowed to return to the normal world, but he wasn't having any of it.  It's no wonder that she is in need of some kind of parent, and why Olivia will probably influence her.

 

The strange thing about that scene, aside from showing Leland as much more blatantly evil and cruel than he has previously been depicted (more extreme), is that when he was leaving in the elevator, I almost got a protective vibe out of him. "She's where she needs to be."

 

Yes, if the enemy is out to kill her, that was (in theory) one of the safest places to keep her for her own security.

 

I think my favorite part about this episode (which felt a bit uneven to me) was the scene between Whitley and Jones. He's really grown on me as a character; come a very far way from his initial "jerk soldier" appearance, and been allowed to develop into a three-dimensional person on-screen. And the actor did a wonderful job. I hope this isn't the last we see of him.

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...Shapeshifter, when was cloning mentioned? I must have missed it....

I'm not entirely sure I heard it. I was hoping if I did actually hear it, someone here could confirm. Maybe I need to rewatch.
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when was cloning mentioned? I must have missed it.

Leland mentioned to Mr. uh… Roboto that Markridge was 10 years away from human cloning. Meaning, if his estimate was correct, they were getting it done in 1997.

The strange thing about that scene, aside from showing Leland as much more blatantly evil and cruel than he has previously been depicted (more extreme), is that when he was leaving in the elevator, I almost got a protective vibe out of him. "She's where she needs to be."

That was really my read on the scene: that she was safer from being assassinated. And also possibly, to protect other people from her. She IS crazy. Just because she didn't kill all those people in The Night Room doesn't mean she isn't dangerous.

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I just love this episode to pieces. On rewatch, I think I caught onto something. When Aaron was talking to Royce about a disaster preparedness project, Royce said it was at a think tank stage but Aaron could SPEARHEAD the project. I don't think that's a coincidental word choice.

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So basically all Cole ever had to do was have Cassie change her voicemail to the future to say "DO NOT SEND ANYONE BACK IN TIME FOR THE LOVE OF PETE" and they would have accomplished exactly what they wanted all along?

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So basically all Cole ever had to do was have Cassie change her voicemail to the future to say "DO NOT SEND ANYONE BACK IN TIME FOR THE LOVE OF PETE" and they would have accomplished exactly what they wanted all along?

So Cole is as irrelevant as Indiana Jone was in the Ark of the Covenant?

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Solea, agree with all of your post. I feel the same way. And yeah, wow, Goines did look like Henry Winkler.

 

Thanks, Shapeshifter. I might watch again. I usually watch this with my brother but he's been sick and missed both showings last night. If I do I'll try to pay more attention.

 

And Kariyaki comes to the rescue. Thanks! I do remember that.

 

Marie, hilarious!

 

Rhetorica, BBT fan? But without Indy the Ark wouldn't be safely stored in that giant ass warehouse.

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Goodness this episode was so much more than I was expecting. A lesser show (read: most sci fi shows) would have spent the whole hour on what they covered in the first five minutes with the initial Cole and Ramsey confrontation in 87. But they gave me so very much more. Easily my favorite of the season.

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Leland mentioned to Mr. uh… Roboto that Markridge was 10 years away from human cloning. Meaning, if his estimate was correct, they were getting it done in 1997...

So, then, is the mention of cloning insignificant (Dolly the lamb was born in 1996), or is it a clue to Olivia and Jennifer's resemblance to each other and Olivia's mention of "mother" and (here I go again with not being sure what I recall hearing) did she also mention "sister"?

BTW, I loved the way the actor corrected Leland's "Roboto" to "Nakano." No surprise to read this in an interview with the actor:

Denis Akiyama is an actor who sees the ironies in life and is able to express them in humorous quips....

This JC [Japanese Canadian] actor and voice actor — who fundamentally considers himself a performer — once told me he has a BA in Psychology from York University in Toronto. ‘Perfect if you want to understand peoples’ motivations’, he drily observed....

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So... Goines was about to walk away from the Precursor until COLE mentioned a virus... Time travel, always a mistake.

It continues to tie into the idea of events being cause and effect as brought up by Jennifer last week when referencing the death of Elena which was happening concurrently.

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With all due respect to Kirk Acevedo, this episode was a bit of a mess and my least favorite of the run.  I blame the writers for giving for not making me invested enough in Ramse other than his friendship with Cole.  I still cannot buy into the premise that Ramse was so in love with Elena (a woman that he LEFT and didn't have contact with for YEARS) and so attached to a son he's know for a few days that he is willing to betray his best friend to go all evil overlord and become the architect of the plague .

 

I never got the impression that anything beyond basic education was possible in 2043, so how was Ramse able to tell the group all about advances in the industrial, technology, and medical fields allowing them to make investments?  Sure, I get knowing things like 9-11, but the new pharmaceuticals?  In this new "timeline" Ramse sees first-hand the affects of the plague, so why would he go along with the plan?  He was always portrayed as a bit of a soft heart, balancing out Cole's violent tendencies.  

 

And why didn't he age?  Ramse spent nearly 30 years in the past and not a single wrinkle or age spot?  Yet we see other characters (other than Olivia) age?  Why?

 

Why was the reaction to bringing the two pendants together so much more volatile than when Cole brought Cassie's watches together? 

 

Olivia mentions the "Time of Interference" is obviously when Cole starts traveling back in time, why did they have to allow the timeline to play out as it had?  Once they had Dr. Peters re-create the plague they had everything they needed.

 

I'm willing to suspend a lot of logic when I watch these types of shows, but this episode was too much of a stretch for me.

 

I DID like the scene between Goines and Jennifer and I felt oddly emotional when Whitley left Jones.  Other than those scenes, the entire episode fell flat for me.  I hope we're done with Ramse-centric episodes (it's felt like the last three were all about him) because they really slow  down the pace of the show - and since the writers did such a terrible job developing this heel turn, I have no vested interest in this story line (other than the fact it takes away from Cole, Jones, and Cassie).

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So is it just me or can this whole thing be solved by sending someone on a one way trip to kill Ramsey before he enters travels back to 1987?

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 I still cannot buy into the premise that Ramse was so in love with Elena (a woman that he LEFT and didn't have contact with for YEARS) and so attached to a son he's know for a few days that he is willing to betray his best friend to go all evil overlord and become the architect of the plague .

Agreed. I think someone up-thread mentioned that Cole is fighting so hard for Cassie (one person) just like Ramse is fighting for his son.  But, there is one difference. If Cole wins he will save 7 billion people and restore modern humanity...if Ramse wins he will kill all those people and plunge humanity into a dark age.  Also another problem with this is that time heals all wounds. I am expected to believe that Ramse continues to have this fire in him to save his son for all the time since 1987 and, never grows to like modern humanity from 1988 to 2015.  He also, apparently, never falls in love... never has kids, and never makes friends that he would not want to see die of the plague.  Doesn't seem to enjoy a humanity where food is plentiful, you can take a shower, HVAC, nice clothing, cars, the internet... art museums. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't waiver in 17 years of living in the pre-plague world.

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...And why didn't he age?  Ramse spent nearly 30 years in the past and not a single wrinkle or age spot?  Yet we see other characters (other than Olivia) age?  Why?...

Good question. Combined with the illogical (to the viewers) motivations of Ramse, maybe it will be revealed that he is really time traveling back and forth. Or, more likely, the time travel stuff he injected himself with (that we saw heal fatal wounds in Cole in earlier episodes) is keeping him young, especially since he only time traveled once.

 

...Why was the reaction to bringing the two pendants together so much more volatile than when Cole brought Cassie's watches together?...

Another good question. My guess is that they are made of the specially reactive metal timesplinterium.

So is it just me or can this whole thing be solved by sending someone on a one way trip to kill Ramsey before he enters travels back to 1987?

If so, the series finale could be a heartbreaking trip by Cole back to the time when Deacon ordered him to kill Ramse. Of course, that would require Cole being able to do another splinter. The end of this episode shows Chekhov's time machine is still in one piece,

the episode description for next week implies Cassie not only seeks medical attention for his stab wounds, but a fix for his bodily disintegration due to all the time traveling,

but aren't Cole and Ramse in the same time (2015) now anyway?

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Olivia mentions the "Time of Interference" is obviously when Cole starts traveling back in time, why did they have to allow the timeline to play out as it had?  Once they had Dr. Peters re-create the plague they had everything they needed.

 

A couple of reasons.  First, as we witnessed when Cole 'convinced' Goines to buy the specimen as well as other times where Cole seemed to be jump starting the plague rather than foiling it, Cole's interference is absolutely necessary for the plague to happen.  Events being both cause and effect.  Also Ramse believed that Cole was killed in 1987 so everything would need to happen exactly as it already had in order for them to both end up in 1987 when they did.  Any change might not just allow Cole to live but might also lead to Ramse not having come back to the past.  2043 only happens because everything that occurs happens exactly the way it has and the reason we know this is that other than the time that Cassie died prematurely every splinter back to 2043 was to the exact same 2043.  Changing anything regarding what Cole did prior to him and Ramse going back to 1987 runs the risk of preventing that from happening which runs the risk of preventing the plague.  Cole and Ramse in 1987 are both necessary to the plague being released so they cannot run the risk of those things not happening.

 

Cause and effect.  Cole going back in time and mucking about with things is what caused the plague to happen.  Cole going back in time and mucking about with things is the effect of the plague happening.

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I never got the impression that anything beyond basic education was possible in 2043, so how was Ramse able to tell the group all about advances in the industrial, technology, and medical fields allowing them to make investments?  Sure, I get knowing things like 9-11, but the new pharmaceuticals?

I don't think he did, I think Olivia is the one who knows all this stuff.

Why was the reaction to bringing the two pendants together so much more volatile than when Cole brought Cassie's watches together? 

Was it more volatile? Because it looked like the effect from Cassie's watches blew that whole room apart and most of the people in it.

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Olivia mentions the "Time of Interference" is obviously when Cole starts traveling back in time, why did they have to allow the timeline to play out as it had?  Once they had Dr. Peters re-create the plague they had everything they needed.

 

Olivia sort of addresses the question that Jones, Cole and Cassie have ignored.  If Cole stops the plague how does he exist in order to come back and stop the plague?  If they don't let the Time of Interference play out as it already has, Ramse is never sent back in time.  Like how Cassie and Cole were adamant that she not see him when he showed up in Haiti because it would change what they already knew would happen in the future, or rather, their present.  

 

I do think they misstepped with Ramse's story because it's just really hard to feel invested in his relationship with Sam.  It's like we are just expected to believe this relationship because parents are supposed to love their kids, or something.  Overall, however, I do like the questions being asked about the individual vs the whole.  It's interesting.  We want to be able to put the whole above the individual but our brains have a hard time doing this.  Is put one person ahead of everyone else somehow bad or just a natural part of the human condition?  

 

ETA: is there a reason Olivia speaks the way she does?  It's so affected, so purposeful, so annoying.  

Edited by bluebonnet

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ETA: is there a reason Olivia speaks the way she does?  It's so affected, so purposeful, so annoying.

Maybe she's a cylon? Just kidding, but maybe Maybe Alisen Down was inspired by Tricia Helfer's personification of 6 when they worked on Battlestar Galactica. Anyway, it didn't bother me, because I'm assuming there's a reason for it yet to be revealed.
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Maybe she's a cylon? Just kidding, but maybe Maybe Alisen Down was inspired by Tricia Helfer's personification of 6 when they worked on Battlestar Galactica. Anyway, it didn't bother me, because I'm assuming there's a reason for it yet to be revealed.

I bet you aren't too far off on this.  There was an almost inhuman quality to Olivia.

 

I was rewatching the pilot episode (because damn, I really love this show so much right now) and there's the part where Cole is injected with the injecty stuff they use on travelers.  Jones tells him that time is different for him now, that he's no longer bound by time.  This helps explain why Ramse didn't age, he's no longer bound by time.  I'm guessing this means that Olivia is at least also injected with the timey whimey stuff, though her voice could be indicative of some robotic thing.  

 

So this injection stuff is like, what, immortality?  Did Jones invent immortality and not even realize it?  

Edited by bluebonnet

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I'm guessing this means that Olivia is at least also injected with the timey whimey stuff, though her voice could be indicative of some robotic thing.  

 

If she is a time traveler perhaps she comes from so far in the future that there are no accents, perhaps that is what they are attempting to portray with her voice.

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Is it immoral to kill the rest of humanity to save one life when the rest of humanity is already dead?

Time travel creates some weird questions.

Edited by ksizzle88
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Is it immoral to kill the rest of humanity to save one life when the rest of humanity is already dead?

Time travel creates some weird questions.

It isn't just one life though is it.  I mean it is one life Ramse might be focused on but if his son would cease to exist as a result of stopping the plague there would have to be others wouldn't there.  It may be only be hundreds or thousands or even millions vs billions, but the reality isn't 1 vs billions like is being portrayed.  Granted he might not give a crap about anything more than that 1 but why should he.  Why should the billions he has never met mean more to him than those he has already met.  Jones isn't doing what she is doing for the billions she is just doing it for 1, why is she a good guy for wanting to kill however many would cease to exist to bring back 1 while Ramse is a bad guy for wanting to leave billions dead so the 1 can continue to live.  So yeah great question and tough to answer because it isn't really all that black and white.

Edited by lucifer316
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Then does it become a question of whether or not motivation matters?  

 

Is there are thread for this?  I love these questions and this discussion,

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This show has really been faltering for me with all the focus on Ramse. I'm here for the Cole and Cassie work, with the rest being side, interesting buts. I'm utterly uninvested in the Ramse story right now. As much as I love Kirk Acevedo (and loved seeing him on SHIELD this week too!) I just can't fathom his motivation the way I can for Cole and Cassie. Plus, him becoming a villain so fast and appearing to have absolutely no internal struggle isn't interesting to me. It reads false. I'll stick around to see how it all works out, but if they continue to ignore the TV gold they have in Cole/Cassie, I'm not going to be happy.

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I enjoyed this episode. I get why folks might have found it a little repetitive (like a recap episode), but I enjoyed that as so much has happened. It was helpful to put things back into context on what is a fairly complex timeline he he.

 

I also noticed that Olivia looked a lot like Jennifer. So I think they surely have some biological connection. I wonder if Jennifer's psychological challenges are due to her coming into contact with herself or something similar at some point. Wouldn't that drive a person a bit crazy? I think there is something important about Jennifer's mental health and it may be caused by time travel in some way. This episode really brought that to the forefront for me today as you can see she is right in the middle of it from the get go.

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Oak, yeah, I'm still not buying Ramses' motivation here. ANd it does seem to go against his character. He lost his shit right after he was first told that the other camp (the folks with the other core) supposedly had the cure to the virus & he hasn't been the person we  originally met since. His actions have been erratic.

 

Who is the original owner of that pendant? (Olivia's father? Who was he?)

 

I think they allowed the time to play out in order to bring Ramses to them. I think Olivia even says this in the episode. As someone

above mentions worded better.

 

Ksizzle, I think killing Ramses looks like it would work, but I think there is more going on here than we know. If it wasn't Ramses, it could have/would have been someone else. I keep wondering if Olivia is from a time further beyond 2043 and is working on her own historical remants (similiar to how Dr. Jones hooked onto Cassie as a starting point). She already knew Ramses would go back. How?

 

And as much as I love Kirk I too am tired of all Ramses all the time. I miss Cole.

 

Shapeshifter, I like the idea of the time travel serum keeping him young. That could also be what's keeping Olivia young. Only her serum is more advanced being from a more future future. Or not.

 

While Olivia & Jennifer do look similiar I still think there is a huge (plus creepy) similarity between Jennifer and Cassie and Cassie and Dr. Jones. They all kind of look like members of the clone club.

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Is it immoral to kill the rest of humanity to save one life when the rest of humanity is already dead?

Time travel creates some weird questions.

Love this question. And this is another example of a possible motive for Ramse that we just haven't heard from him.

...So this injection stuff is like, what, immortality?  Did Jones invent immortality and not even realize it?

Good question/point. I think more likely, it keeps a person young until they start rapidly dying like Cole was doing in this episode (weakness, nose bleeds, etc.)--which, IMO, wouldn't be such a bad trade off if you still got a decent life span--which maybe you would if you don't do too much time traveling.

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It isn't just one life though is it.  I mean it is one life Ramse might be focused on but if his son would cease to exist as a result of stopping the plague there would have to be others wouldn't there.  It may be only be hundreds or thousands or even millions vs billions

There isnt any reason to believe Sam will grow up and reproduce so if THAT VERSION of Sam were to be "erased" or that timeline to never happen, it does not necessarily mean anyone else would never exist.

 

There has been some question about how Ramse was able to guide the army of the 12 monkeys (or whatever Olivia's outfit is called) to such great wealth. There was a scene showing Ramse looking at some computer displays, Olivia walks in and asks him "has anything else come back to you", the implication is Ramse remembering anything else useful from his remembrance of historical facts to her group. I thought those computers looked weird but the thing that really is bugging me is what is happening to Ramse's hand and arm? Was that tattoo? Was it some weird alteration to his body caused by the unprepared time travel?

 

Also, Im still Team Jones. I know her primary motivation is just one person BUT she also misses all the GOOD stuff human kind have created over the millennia, the art, the philosophy, the music, the food, all the stuff that makes our otherwise shitty species worth a damn. In fact, if she had not given such a full throated defense of the awesomeness of our culture as a species, if she was JUST motivated for her daughter, I would be Team 12 Monkeys because our species is so horrible, so depraved so wasteful and bent on utter destruction. I LIKE that she reminded me of what makes our species worthwhile. If only we were all like that all the time instead of so many of us being bent of destruction of each other, of this beautiful, precious planet.

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