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Book 4: A Feast For Crows


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I love too how very dismissive and cocky Cersei is in this chapter when she's clearly so very bad at this ruling thing.  Showing that she learned not a damn thing from Tywin letting the family publicly tear itself apart and how open it left them to outsiders, she's even deliberately sowing dissent against Jaime and Kevan instead of using what influence they do have to bolster her own.  In the space of about three pages, she scoffs at how important Varys was thought to be in knowing things and then gets aggravated that he's not there to provide her with information when the rest of the council is seriously arguing over whether there's really any downside to promising the North to both the Boltons and the Ironborn.   

Cersei apparently doesn't know the first thing about the Freys either in thinking that if they can just wait until old Walder dies, the new Lord Frey will surely be eager to pin the Red Wedding on other Freys to thin the ranks.  The Freys may be a bit of a continual joke among the rest of the kingdoms and they may constantly be jockeying for position, but they're not going to sell out their own and a smarter person would see the Red Wedding as proof of that.    Here, we see the shortsightedness of Tywin's actions too in Qyburn relaying that people are talking about how the crown must have been behind it and what a complete violation of the laws of gods and men it was.  It also makes me wonder again about Qyburn, who we know was lurking around Harrenhal at the time the ravens would have been flying back and forth planning it and as a maester in practice if not actuality must have been fully aware of who many of those ravens were from.  He's basically playing this entire small council meeting like a fiddle.

I'll agree the whole harebrained scheme to have Kettleblack seduce Margaery is stupid.  Has she seriously not been paying attention at all?  A virgin widow of two kings now married to a third shows a certain determination to be married to THE king and isn't likely to be distracted by some upjumped nobody hedge knight no one seems to know anything about.  He's seriously too dumb for words to buy what she's selling.  It's like Cersei wants to believe something is true, so goes about manufacturing the evidence that it might be.  But this is the same woman who's sitting around thinking how lucky she is that Renly who never made a move toward an actual battle died instead of Stannis and doesn't think maybe someone should talk to his reportedly captured hand or look into why he would suddenly relocate his entire force up north at all.

You have to wonder how specific the description of Tyrion they're giving out can really be that the three men at the beginning of the chapter brought her a head that still had a nose and claimed they didn't know that was wrong.  Of course Cersei being Cersei doesn't care at all that innocent dwarves and in one case, a child, are being killed in pursuit of the bounty she's offering, just that no one has found Tyrion yet. 

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This Cersei chapter, especially when she is in her small council, reminds me of a line Tywin used to describe Aerys.

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Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. "Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. (Tyrion I, ASOS 4)

This is Cersei. She wants to be praised, she wants to be told how she is the awesomest awesome who ever awesomed and she chose a small council that will do that with the exception of Pycelle who resists that. Aurane Waters doesn't praise her either, but she is certain he wants to sleep with her, so I guess it's on par with her.

The Kettleblacks are dumber than a box of rocks. The way she has latched on to those three is a bit disturbing. They're not smart, they're lowborn, they have no money, but since she raised them high, she trusts them above even Jaime with whom she has shared everything. 

Not gonna lie, the Cersei chapters are a fun read for me. Watching her blunder from one thing to the next all the while patting herself on the shoulder is something else altogether, and we don't have a single POV character who is like this. There is nothing more satisfying than watching Jaime slowly break away from her and her influence.

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On 8/13/2018 at 1:10 PM, Avaleigh said:

We learn again that Robert was physically abusive to Cersei. Instead of making a comment to keep her in check and explaining that there are (nonviolent) things that he could do to her to make her life miserable if she ever harms one of his illegitimate children, he just blows off steam by hitting Cersei but ultimately allows her to have her way. It's like he sometimes doesn't understand that violence isn't the only answer to dealing with a problem. 

Yeah, he said something like that himself when he hit her in front of Ned, that he didn't know how to fight someone without hitting them. You're right that he's physically domineering but unable to actually stand up for important stuff. This is what I mean about him being a shitty father to his bastards too. There's plenty more he could have done for Mya without even bringing her to court, it's not a binary between anonymous servant and almost-princess, but he's not actually that interested in being a father, it's just that Joff's first psychotic act made him temporarily miss his first child. 

My favorite part of this chapter is Cersei's crazy rant about Sansa, and imagining the reaction of her lickspittles, who wouldn't dare react honestly to how nuts she sounds but also can't easily shake it off, staring in shocked silence for an awkward moment.

Qyburn shows how dangerous he is outside of his experiments with his plan to send sleeper agents to assassinate Jon.  If this had actually gone through, 100+ mutineers backed by the crown could effect a more permanent regime change than Bowen's small gang, who I don't expect to survive long with all the wildlings around.

On 8/13/2018 at 7:56 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Cersei apparently doesn't know the first thing about the Freys either in thinking that if they can just wait until old Walder dies, the new Lord Frey will surely be eager to pin the Red Wedding on other Freys to thin the ranks.  The Freys may be a bit of a continual joke among the rest of the kingdoms and they may constantly be jockeying for position, but they're not going to sell out their own and a smarter person would see the Red Wedding as proof of that.    

You have to wonder how specific the description of Tyrion they're giving out can really be that the three men at the beginning of the chapter brought her a head that still had a nose and claimed they didn't know that was wrong.  Of course Cersei being Cersei doesn't care at all that innocent dwarves and in one case, a child, are being killed in pursuit of the bounty she's offering, just that no one has found Tyrion yet. 

Really? Merrett Frey was already expecting an intra-family bloodbath after Old Walder dies and Black Walder and Big Walder both are known to root for the deaths of their relatives. From the way Merrett told it, "their own" would probably only extend to their offspring and siblings from the same mother, not half-brothers, nephews, uncles, cousins or brothers-in-law. Naming certain Freys as the guilty ones while anyone else at the wedding was hosting peacefully is at least somewhat less ridiculous than the party line they're selling when Davos is in White Harbor that Robb Stark started the massacre by turning into a werewolf. Old Walder is big on family honor but they're not a monolith and he's the only one holding them all together. The Lannisters themselves are proof enough that being insulted when someone attacks one of your family does not translate to being unwilling to harm or otherwise betray family members, and that a house built around an ambitious, proud and petty man with a skewed sense of family can start eating their own as soon as he's gone.

I don't think the problem is the description of Tyrion so much as dwarves' lives being cheap and all of them seen as equally subhuman. I'm sure they wouldn't have quite the same problem with an able-bodied fugitive.

Edited by Lady S.
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On 8/19/2018 at 5:57 PM, Lady S. said:

From the way Merrett told it, "their own" would probably only extend to their offspring and siblings from the same mother, not half-brothers, nephews, uncles, cousins or brothers-in-law. Naming certain Freys as the guilty ones while anyone else at the wedding was hosting peacefully is at least somewhat less ridiculous than the party line they're selling when Davos is in White Harbor that Robb Stark started the massacre by turning into a werewolf. Old Walder is big on family honor but they're not a monolith and he's the only one holding them all together.

Yes. Isn’t the next Lord Frey the son of Walder’s Eldest son? He will probably save his own siblings, favorite cousins via his paternal grandmother and anyone that might be useful. But as the Lannisters said, too many heirs can be as bad as Too few. There may need so be some marriages between the younger 2nd cousins (great grandkids of Walder to thin the ranks). 

 

On 8/19/2018 at 5:57 PM, Lady S. said:

I don't think the problem is the description of Tyrion so much as dwarves' lives being cheap and all of them seen as equally subhuman. I'm sure they wouldn't have quite the same problem with an able-bodied fugitive.

Yes. 

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55 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. Isn’t the next Lord Frey the son of Walder’s Eldest son? He will probably save his own siblings, favorite cousins via his paternal grandmother and anyone that might be useful. But as the Lannisters said, too many heirs can be as bad as Too few. There may need so be some marriages between the younger 2nd cousins (great grandkids of Walder to thin the ranks). 

It's his great grandson, Edwyn, since Ryman was hanged by Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood. His brother is Black Walder and they hate each other. I'm guessing there might be a full on civil war with the Freys coming up. 

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On 8/24/2018 at 5:44 AM, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. Isn’t the next Lord Frey the son of Walder’s Eldest son? He will probably save his own siblings, favorite cousins via his paternal grandmother and anyone that might be useful. But as the Lannisters said, too many heirs can be as bad as Too few. There may need so be some marriages between the younger 2nd cousins (great grandkids of Walder to thin the ranks). 

Old Walder's still alive in the books so I think it's too early to say who the next lord will be with various people north and south knocking his descendents off. Stevron, the original heir, died after Oxcross, and yes, at this point in Feast his eldest son, Ryman, is the heir, but as YaddaYadda said, he suspiciously disappears later. Whether either Edwyn or Black Walder will outlive great-grandpa at this rate is pretty up in the air. 

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On ‎24‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 11:44 AM, Scarlett45 said:

Isn’t the next Lord Frey the son of Walder’s Eldest son? He will probably save his own siblings, favorite cousins via his paternal grandmother and anyone that might be useful. But as the Lannisters said, too many heirs can be as bad as Too few.

Preston Jacobs has done a video on the potential Frey Civil War. It covers the (many!) branches of the Frey family tree and the probable succession problems that will occur when (if!?) Walder dies.

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The Iron Captain

Victarion has arrived at Old Wyk to try to claim the Seastone Chair for himself. He ponders his chances and acknowledges to himself that Euron and Asha are both going to be obstacles. He reminds himself more than once that "no man is as accursed as the kinslayer". When one of his men addresses him as 'Your Grace' he reminds the man that he isn't king yet.

Aeron greets Victarion, they spend some time praying, and then start talking about Euron. Aeron says that Euron has surrounded himself with monsters and godless men, and Victarion again has to remind himself that kinslaying is off limits. Still, he can't help but fantasize about what it would be like to beat Euron's face until it's split and bleeding.

Aeron asks Victarion if he means to claim their father's crown and Victarion answers that he'll take the crown if the Drowned God wills it to happen. Ironborn from each of the islands stop by to wish Victarion well and seek his favor. 

Victarion hosts a feast for some of the famous captains and many of them promise him their voices for the upcoming kingsmoot. Hotho Harlaw offers his daughter for Victarion to marry but Victarion says that he's had no luck with wives. He remembers how his first wife died after giving birth to a stillborn daughter, his second wife died of the pox, and the third one he ended up murdering. 

Hotho tells Victarion that a king must have an heir and says that his twelve year old daughter has good hips. Every time Victarion tries to picture Hotho's daughter, he ends up seeing the wife he killed. He tells Hotho that he'll look at his daughter after he's crowned.

Baelor Blacktyde sits by Victarion and asks him if he'll put an end to the war if he is made king. Victarion doesn't like the idea of bending the knee but Blacktyde argues that they can't stand alone against all of Westeros. He says that Robert proved this to them during Balon's Rebellion. He refers to Balon as the Widowmaker and basically asks if Victarion is going to bring the ironborn more of the same madness. When Victarion doesn't answer, Blacktyde snorts his contempt and walks away.

Victarion sees that Asha has come to his tent and calls her over. She tells him that she's pleased he's come to her queensmooot. He asks her if she's drunk and bristles when she begins questioning him about Moat Cailin. He tells her that he doesn't need any lessons from her about warfare. 

The conversation turns to the kingsmoot and Asha says that Aeron may have woken more candidates for the Seastone Chair than he intended. The Drumm and Maron Volmark all mean to make claims in addition to the various Greyjoys. Asha begins to argue that her claim is stronger because she's Balon's child but their conversation is interrupted by the arrival of Euron and some of his men. 

Victarion thinks that Euron looks unchanged from the last time he saw him although he notices that his lips are bruised and blue. 

Euron talks about his travels and claims that he's the "godliest man ever to raise sail". He says that men pray when they see his sails and talks about how he kills and rapes the people he sees who worship false gods. When Euron suggests that maybe Aeron should kneel to him for a blessing, Aeron calls Euron's followers blind fools and asks if they can't see what sort of man Euron is. When Quellon Humble replies that he sees a king in Euron, Aeron spits and stalks off into the night. 

Euron asks Asha and Victarion why they have no greeting for him after he's been away for so long. Asha accuses Euron of having something to do with her father's death but Euron denies it and says he has no control over the winds. Euron tells Asha that she needs a husband and starts asking some of the men if they're already married. Asha says her axe is her husband and that any man who wants to marry her can take it up with him. 

Victarion insisted that no blood will be shed in his tent tonight and asks Euron and his followers to leave. Euron says that he'd hoped that Victarion would have given him a warmer welcome especially since he's soon to be Victarion's king. Victarion says they'll have to see what happens at the kingsmoot. 

Asha asks Victarion to take a walk with her. She wants to know why Euron went away to the east for so long. Victarion is evasive and Asha says that Balon refused to speak about what happened. The timing of Euron's sailing for the east coincides with the death of Victarion's third wife. Victarion thinks about how he hasn't been with a woman since he killed his wife. He thinks about how he'll have to marry if he's made king. 

Asha tells Victarion that she'll agree to support him if he agrees to share the rule with her. Victarion wonders if Asha wants to be his queen and finds that he's sexually aroused at the thought. Asha asks if she can be made her uncle's Hand in return for her support. 

Victarion rejects her offer and thinks that he'll be laughed at since no king of the ironborn has ever had a Hand much less a woman as Hand. Asha warns Victarion that Euron is the candidate everyone is talking about.

Asha asks Victarion if Euron was responsible for killing his wife. Victarion thinks about how Euron got his wife pregnant and how Balon commanded Victarion to kill her. Victarion wanted to kill Euron as well but Balon wouldn't allow it so he sent Euron into exile as a compromise. Victarion claims that he had no choice.

Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow's Eye laughed when I confronted him. "She came to me wet and willing," he had boasted. "It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters."

Asha tells Victarion that she feels sorry for him and even sorrier for his dead wife. She tells her uncle that he leaves her no choice but to try to claim the Seastone Chair on her own. He tells her that her breath is hers to waste. 

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It's weird to realize that Vic, barely a character in Theon's chapters, and Aeron each have 2 chapters in this book now that they're PoV, while Asha only has the one. Not only is she more likable and had more of an impact in Theon's chapters, but Vic is such a simple character that all we need to know about him (dull duty vs. wanting to kill Euron) could have been in his chapter on the Shield Islands and we would have understood the character fine if this part was from Asha's PoV.

Baelor Blacktyde is another of the few good ironborn men. I'm curious about his "eight years a hostage in Oldtown". Should we assume this was also after Balon's first rebellion? I have thought that more hostages might have at least hindered Balon's next war if other fathers couldn't write off their sons the way he did. This is the first we've heard of a hostage besides Theon, so was it more widespread and Baelor is just the only one to return anti-Balon? (If not, why would he be the only non-Greyjoy hostage?) Is the problem just that all the non-Theon hostages had shorter captivity, so they were already free before Robert's death? (8 years to Theon's ~10)

It really says something about the Greyjoys and the ironborn culture that Vic and Aeron, who otherwise worshipped Balon, do not even consider for a moment honoring his one good decision by supporting Asha as his heir. Vic has a warm relationship with her but can only imagine her as Queen if she meant to be his wife. Though as bad as shutting down her offer may be, I don't think a joint Vic/Asha ticket could have beaten Euron either. Vic is a terrible public speaker and Asha isn't offering much, or nothing most of them want to hear. I doubt her supporters to his would have overwhelmed Euron's pitch at the end of the kingsmoot. Asha is right that Aeron set off more than he wanted by calling the kingsmoot as it ends with him forced to crown Euron and legitimize his rule.

And here we meet Euron for the first time, in all his creepy blue-lipped glory. Notably Asha is the only Greyjoy who doesn't act at all intimidated by Euron, confronting him about Balon's murder right off. I don't mean to suggest she's just inherently braver and the male Greyjoys are wimps, for all their other faults, rather that it's possible Euron could have ignored her more until now. Victimizing men ensures silence because the shame around that is, if possible, even greater on the islands, and I'm sure Euron loves the subversiveness of that. Whereas mistreating Balon's daughter in any way reflects back on Balon and Balon would need to avenge that slight. The fact Balon was able to exile Euron for what happened with Vic's wife means the force of his authority did mean something to Euron, which is weird to me because I think of Balon as such a loser, no Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton, while Euron is a pure monster.

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Victarion thinks about how Euron got his wife pregnant and how Balon commanded Victarion to kill her. 

Actually it just says Balon ordered no kinslaying, exiled Euron, and said they should never speak of what happened. When Vic says "he made me do the killing", he's referring to Euron for getting her pregnant. We don't know that the ironborn have a tradition that such situations must result in honor killing, especially as she was "only a salt wife" and I'd think those women could be easily discarded with lesser scandal. We just know that Vic would have probably killed the man involved if it were anyone else, but he couldn't kill his kin, still had to murder someone so he took it out on the woman, however much he cared for her, the insult to his ego was worse than the pain of killing her. I also doubt the captured concubine came to Euron "wet and willing" either. Euron brags about raping women the world over in this chapter, is already implied to have sexually abused his youngest brother(s), and I'm sure he did this intentionally just to mess with a younger too close in age to treat the same way he did Aeron.

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Asha is the smartest one of these idiots by a mile.  That's not saying much but still, she's smart and it's macho BS that keeps the other men from following her.

Victarion is dumb and awful but he's funny dumb.  Not counting the whole beat his wife to death thing.

If Euron impregnated Victarion's salt wife, that kid would still have been Victarion's nephew.  That might count as kinslaying.

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11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

It's weird to realize that Vic, barely a character in Theon's chapters, and Aeron each have 2 chapters in this book now that they're PoV, while Asha only has the one. Not only is she more likable and had more of an impact in Theon's chapters, but Vic is such a simple character that all we need to know about him (dull duty vs. wanting to kill Euron) could have been in his chapter on the Shield Islands and we would have understood the character fine if this part was from Asha's PoV.

Baelor Blacktyde is another of the few good ironborn men. I'm curious about his "eight years a hostage in Oldtown". Should we assume this was also after Balon's first rebellion? I have thought that more hostages might have at least hindered Balon's next war if other fathers couldn't write off their sons the way he did. This is the first we've heard of a hostage besides Theon, so was it more widespread and Baelor is just the only one to return anti-Balon? (If not, why would he be the only non-Greyjoy hostage?) Is the problem just that all the non-Theon hostages had shorter captivity, so they were already free before Robert's death? (8 years to Theon's ~10)

It really says something about the Greyjoys and the ironborn culture that Vic and Aeron, who otherwise worshipped Balon, do not even consider for a moment honoring his one good decision by supporting Asha as his heir. Vic has a warm relationship with her but can only imagine her as Queen if she meant to be his wife. Though as bad as shutting down her offer may be, I don't think a joint Vic/Asha ticket could have beaten Euron either. Vic is a terrible public speaker and Asha isn't offering much, or nothing most of them want to hear. I doubt her supporters to his would have overwhelmed Euron's pitch at the end of the kingsmoot. Asha is right that Aeron set off more than he wanted by calling the kingsmoot as it ends with him forced to crown Euron and legitimize his rule.

And here we meet Euron for the first time, in all his creepy blue-lipped glory. Notably Asha is the only Greyjoy who doesn't act at all intimidated by Euron, confronting him about Balon's murder right off. I don't mean to suggest she's just inherently braver and the male Greyjoys are wimps, for all their other faults, rather that it's possible Euron could have ignored her more until now. Victimizing men ensures silence because the shame around that is, if possible, even greater on the islands, and I'm sure Euron loves the subversiveness of that. Whereas mistreating Balon's daughter in any way reflects back on Balon and Balon would need to avenge that slight. The fact Balon was able to exile Euron for what happened with Vic's wife means the force of his authority did mean something to Euron, which is weird to me because I think of Balon as such a loser, no Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton, while Euron is a pure monster.

Actually it just says Balon ordered no kinslaying, exiled Euron, and said they should never speak of what happened. When Vic says "he made me do the killing", he's referring to Euron for getting her pregnant. We don't know that the ironborn have a tradition that such situations must result in honor killing, especially as she was "only a salt wife" and I'd think those women could be easily discarded with lesser scandal. We just know that Vic would have probably killed the man involved if it were anyone else, but he couldn't kill his kin, still had to murder someone so he took it out on the woman, however much he cared for her, the insult to his ego was worse than the pain of killing her. I also doubt the captured concubine came to Euron "wet and willing" either. Euron brags about raping women the world over in this chapter, is already implied to have sexually abused his youngest brother(s), and I'm sure he did this intentionally just to mess with a younger too close in age to treat the same way he did Aeron.

Thanks for the correction, I definitely misunderstood the "he made me do the killing" line. What I find odd is that Victarion is anti kinslaying but still killed his wife knowing that she was pregnant with his brother's child. Whoops, Benteen beat me to that observation.

Asha seems to be the only one who feels sorry for Victarion's wife. I too always assumed that Euron raped her but we've seen him have one willing mistress before with that bastard daughter of that one lord so I guess there's a (tiny) chance that it wasn't rape. I just assume that it was rape because this is Euron and Victarion acts so guilty that I suspect his wife probably told him that she was assaulted before he killed her. Victarion sees himself as the big victim when he's the one who murdered his wife. These people are all too sick for words. 

I get the impression that Asha doesn't know just how awful Euron is. She knows he's a bad guy and she's correct in suspecting that he killed her father, but I don't know if she realizes just how sick and evil he is. She isn't proceeding with any caution and doesn't seem to have any fear of this guy. Aeron really should talk to her but he's such a misogynist that he probably doesn't think that she's worth his time. 

I think that Victarion and Asha teaming up together with Aeron's blessing they might have at least had a chance against Euron. True that the men seem to be the most interested in Euron but Asha and Victarion's combined strength isn't nothing. I wonder how they'd settle a tied vote if kinslaying is officially off the table?

Regarding Euron's ridiculous claim that he's the godliest men of them all, is he just yanking them or does he really believe on some level that he's earned the favor of the gods? What about the whole kinslaying thing with Balon? 

One other thing that struck me in this chapter is how Victarion's fear of being laughed at seems to rule his thought process. He doesn't want the story of his wife and Euron getting out because he fears he'll be laughed at. He doesn't want a Hand for fear of laughter. He doesn't want a woman helping him for fear he'll be laughed at. He doesn't want some dude telling the story about his misunderstanding of the Dothraki sea because of the laughter thing. Crazy that this guy is the least insane male member of the Greyjoy family. 

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The Drowned Man

Aeron goes for a swim after his encounter with Euron. He tells himself that he's no longer the weak thing he used to be and believes that no mortal man can frighten him. He heads over to Nagga's bones and thinks about the story of how the Grey King killed the first sea dragon. He then prays about the kingsmoot and asks for the men to be granted the wisdom to choose a true king.

Aeron prays all night and once it's morning, he thinks that he can hear the voice of the Drowned God speaking to him.

The Drowned God wakes, thought Aeron. He could hear his voice welling from the depths of the sea. I shall be with you here this day, my strong and faithful servant, the voice said. No godless man will sit my Seastone Chair.

The ironmen walk over to Nagga's bones for the kingsmoot. When they're all assembled, Aeron asks them who should take Balon's place as the next iron king. Gylbert Farwynd, Lord of the Lonely Light is the first to offer his name for consideration. Aeron thinks about how weird the Farwynds are and that there are rumors that they're skinchangers. Farwynd says that if the ironborn make him their king that he'll have them build ships so that they can sail to the lands beyond the Sunset Sea. He says that if they go there every man shall be a king and every wife a queen. Aeron dismisses Farwynd as a mad fool and it's obvious that the other captains aren't interested in having Farwynd be their kimg.

Erik Ironmaker is the next man to offer his name. He's eighty eight years old and Aeron thinks that Erik might well have been the one made king had this kingsmoot taken place sixty years ago. Erik says he's wise, he has plenty of heirs, and he's shown his strength in battle more times than he can count. Some captains take Erik's offerings and begin to chant his name, but Asha silences Erik's supporters when she asks the old man to stand up on two feet. Asha says that she'll support Erik if he proves to them that he can stand on his own. Euron laughs at Erik as he struggles to stand and after the old man gives up, his grandsons carry him away down the hill. 

The Drumm is next. He's old too but not as old as Erik. He climbs the hill on his own two feet and has a Valyrian steel sword called Red Rain. Drumm argues that the iron king doesn't necessarily have to be a Greyjoy. Drumm gives a longwinded speech and by the time he's done, the listeners seem bored and are even less impressed with the cheap bronze gifts he offers them. 

Aeron signals Victarion to make his move and gives Victarion a blessing upon his brother's request. Victarion gives a simple speech and says that all they'll get from him is more of what they got from Balon. He emphasizes the loyalty he showed Balon and how he was Balon's supporter during both rebellions. Victarion gives the best offering to the captains. He gives them chests filled with gold, silver, and various gems. They seem excited and start shouting Victarion's name. Aeron wonders whether or not Euron will choose to speak.

Asha whistles for the men's attention. She tells Victarion that it was kind of him to bring so many gifts to her queensmoot and makes a joke about how Victarion needs to take off his boots if he wants to count to twenty. She points out that she has a better claim than either Victarion or Euron and says that if Victarion is made king that he'll bring them more defeat the way her father did. She talks about how they suffered after losing Balon's first rebellion and how they gained nothing by taking Moat Cailin, Torrhen's Square, Deepwood Motte, and Winterfell. She has her men upend chests filled with the "wealth" of Deepwood Motte, the Stony Shore, and Winterfell. The chests are filled with pebbles, pinecones, and turnips.

Asha says that if she's made queen that they'll have Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore. She says there will be enougn land for every younger son to build a hall of his own. She says that she's made friends with the northerners and that with her as queen, the north will be their ally against the Iron Throne. Asha tells the men that if they want more turnips, pinecones and defeat that they should shout Victarion's name. If they want peace and victory they should call out her name. 

Aeron is in disbelief when he sees how many of the men are in support of Asha. The men seem divided between Asha and Victarion and the shouting starts to get heated. Men start shoving each other and one man throws a pinecone at Asha's head. When she ducks the pinecone, her makeshift crown falls off. Aeron thinks to himself that the Storm God must be causing the discord among them. 

The fighting and shouting stop when one of Euron's men blows a horn.

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The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.

The sound the horn makes is terrible and makes Aeron cover his ears. He wants to scream that the horn is a horn of hell but doesn't think that anyone will hear him. The glyphs on the horn have become bright and shimmering and when the hornblower is out of breath, he staggers and almost falls. His lips are blistered and bloody and his chest is bleeding as well.

Euron gives the men his speech. He says that if he's made king the ironborn shall have victory and a kingdom. 

 

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"We are the ironborn, and once we were conquerors. Our writ ran everywhere the sound of waves was heard. My brother would have you be content with the cold and dismal north, my niece with even less . . . but I shall give you Lannisport. Highgarden. The Arbor. Oldtown. The riverlands and the Reach, the kingswood and the rainwood, Dorne and the marches, the Mountains of the Moon and the Vale of Arryn, Tarth anf the Stepstones. I say we take it all! I say we take Westeros.

Aeron admits to himself that he had the same dream when he first saw the red comet. He imagines the ironborn taking over Westeros and rooting out the Faith of the Seven and the weirwoods in the north. 

Asha asks Euron how he expects them to be able to conquer all of Westeros when they can't even hold the north. Euron says that if Aegon the Conqueror was able to conquer Westeros there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do the same. When Asha brings up the fact that Aegon had dragons, Euron replies that they'll have dragons too. He says that he found the horn in the ruins of Valyria and says that with the horn he'll be able to bind dragons to his will. Asha argues that there are no more dragons but Euron informs her that there are three and says he knows where to find them. 

Euron offers the captains his gifts and soon a thousand voices are shouting Euron's name. 

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Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted his brother's name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted hinge.

Edited by Avaleigh
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A Damphair chapter that I actually enjoyed. I like the concept of the kingsmoot and have always been amused that it's the ironborn who have decided to vote for their leader. I like the simplicity of each person who is interested just putting their name forward and giving the reasons why they think they're qualified to lead. I'm not sure that I like the bribery part of it but I do like that it's an open discussion where questions are allowed. There should be some objective guys, maybe some of the drowned people, who are there to keep the peace and security until the kingsmoot ends. It seems like they have a tendency to turn violent since these guys typically think that violence is the way to solve 99.9% of their problems. 

I think this chapter shows that it was a mistake for Asha and Victarion not to team up. I agree with Lady S that Euron would probably still have won but adult least they'd know that they did everything they could to keep Euron from being king. Who knows how many lives might have been spared had they found a way to compromise.

How is Asha the only one who is brave enough to ask Euron questions? Even if Euron does know where to find dragons, why are these idiots all so convinced that all it's going to take for Euron to get control of the dragons is to blow this horn? 1) If all it takes is a horn to control multiple dragons, surely somebody would have done this before. 2) Even if it only takes blowing the horn, Euron hasn't even demonstrated that he can do that. We know that blowing the horn just killed this guy. There's nothing to suggest that Euron even knows how this horn works and if it really is capable of binding dragons to his will. 3) Everyone knows that the Targaryens individually could only control one dragon. A dragon might have more than one rider in its lifetime but the Targaryens or dragonseeds would only ever ride one dragon. Did any of the Targaryens ever use a horn to control their dragon? I can't recall. 4) If Euron knows how and where to get the dragons, why doesn't he already have them?

I like the bit about the Farwynds being rumored to be skinchangers. I wonder if there's any truth to it. I guess I like the idea of people who aren't northerners also having this ability. 

I actually don't think that Farwynds idea to leave the Iron Islands is that bad of an idea. I don't think that they should all pull up and leave at once but I do think it's sensible for a group of colonists to go to the lands beyond the Sunset Sea to see what's out there and if it would be worth making a move for. The Iron Islands sound like a shitty place to live even if you're among the elite so why not see if there's a better place to call home?

One of Erik's sons or grandsons really should have told him not to embarrass himself by trying. He's almost as old as Walder Frey and these people basically only respect muscle. 

Victarion gave zero reason for why he's a better choice than Euron. No one there has the courage to say why having Euron as their leader would be a bad idea for everyone involved. 

I thought the last paragraph in this chapter was well done. In the beginning of the chapter he actually has himself believing that he can hear the voice of the Drowned God. Now that he's confronted with Euron he hears only silence. I thought that was appropriately chilling. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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I always liked this chapter too and maybe was too easily forgiving of Aeron's annoyingness because of it. He's such a dumbass, though, actually getting pulled in by Euron's spiel at end before reminding himself who's saying it. He'd be right on board with this crazyness if any other man had said it. And he was so sure the kingsmoot would make a "godly" king (specifically, his choice, Vic) that he never even considered the possibility that Euron would win. Calling the kingsmoot just really, really backfired on him. We'll never know how things would go if he hadn't bothered with this and the Greyjoys had been united when Balon died, but first their geographic divide then the political one made it all that much easier for Euron.

I like to think the Farwynds are skinchangers, because I do believe the theory that Euron is a rogue greenseer.

Asha is obviously the only good choice but that really says more about the other contenders. Her pitch on its own is just not good. Even if Lady Glover is sincere in wanting to ally with her captors and even if her husband honors that wish (both big ifs, imo) how can the Glovers make a deal on behalf of the entire north? Who are they going to stand with against the Iron Throne now that the KitN who wanted to do that is dead? Dead in part because they attacked his lands instead of being his allies, in fact. Does Asha think that any northern uprising against the Boltons would be based on turning to their recent invaders, the family of another guy who betrayed and murdered Starks? And then what, they'd have a northern kingsmoot since all the Starklings are missing or just live peacefully, ironborn and northerner alike, with no central authority in the north?

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding Euron's ridiculous claim that he's the godliest men of them all, is he just yanking them or does he really believe on some level that he's earned the favor of the gods? What about the whole kinslaying thing with Balon? 

Oh, I think he's just mocking Aeron, especially with the comment about kneeling and the sexual connotations of that position. There's the same attitude in this chapter where he goes into his great plans for glory and then throws in as an afterthought that it'd all be for the glory of the Drowned God, of course. If there's one thing the show has kept true and consistent about Euron it's his contempt for his people and their culture and how he's just cynically using them to advance himself. His kinslaying, kinraping, and casual blasphemy are because he doesn't want the favor of any gods, he's crazy enough to want to be a god. 

 

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I wonder how they'd settle a tied vote if kinslaying is officially off the table?

One of the problems with the kingsmoot is there's no way to actually know exactly how many people support a candidate without any actual votes to be counted like at the NW election. It's just a matter of who shouts the loudest, and even if the candidates don't slay each other, their supporters can still fight to lessen the other side's numbers that way.

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First time I read this Chapter, I loved the Kingsmoot, at least within a (IMO) book bereft of much of interest happening. Second time around, it was still interesting, but I liked it less. Like Lady S, I do like the fact that it's the Ironborn that practice one of the only forms of democracy (flawed as it is).

9 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm not sure that I like the bribery part of it but I do like that it's an open discussion where questions are allowed.

Yeah, it's a good job elections today aren't decided by who can shout the loudest...

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

He's such a dumbass, though, actually getting pulled in by Euron's spiel at end before reminding himself who's saying it. He'd be right on board with this crazyness if any other man had said it. And he was so sure the kingsmoot would make a "godly" king (specifically, his choice, Vic) that he never even considered the possibility that Euron would win. Calling the kingsmoot just really, really backfired on him.

I do like the fact that Damphair is portrayed as a true believer: he knows the Drowned God won't permit the "wrong" candidate to win, so how could the Kingsmoot fail to reject Euron? I mean, no ungodly man (or especially, woman) may sit in the Seastone Chair so how could it possibly go wrong?

Also, I love the idea that Damphair, a man who supposedly lives on seawater and deliberately drowns his followers can describe anyone as crazy. So for even him to think the Farwynds are nuts is saying something. Then again, it's not like crazies don't describe other people as crazy. I guess you could say it's the atheist GRRM's portrayal of how religions view other religious belief as being wrong while their own being entirely correct. Which is ironic considering he's built a word where religions actually work... kinda. The Red Priests really can bring people back from the dead and the Old Gods do grant prophetic visions (though their followers may, and probably are, mistaken as to what their Gods really are).

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Great chapter.  I wish we could have gotten the scene on the show where the horn is blown.  GRRM's description of it sounding like the world was coming to an end was epic.  Though it might not lead anywhere in the books ultimately.  Still, it would have been pretty cool.

Leaving the Iron Islands doesn't sound like a bad idea, Avaleigh.  I agree with you.  I've always been fascinated by what's beyond the Sunset Sea.  The problem is no one knows just how far it is but leading some expeditions for new land would probably be much better.  I think few would really follow the Iron Born.

Asha is the most reasonable while the Iron Idiots are drinking the Euron Kool-Aid.

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On 8/30/2018 at 4:40 AM, John Potts said:

I do like the fact that Damphair is portrayed as a true believer: he knows the Drowned God won't permit the "wrong" candidate to win, so how could the Kingsmoot fail to reject Euron? I mean, no ungodly man (or especially, woman) may sit in the Seastone Chair so how could it possibly go wrong?

Also, I love the idea that Damphair, a man who supposedly lives on seawater and deliberately drowns his followers can describe anyone as crazy. So for even him to think the Farwynds are nuts is saying something. Then again, it's not like crazies don't describe other people as crazy. 

It's interesting because Aeron is a different kind of true believer than Mel. She is getting genuine visions, she just doesn't always interpret them correctly. Aeron's messages from his god are almost certainly in his own head, unless the Drowned God is sending him false promises just to fuck with him. More likely if anyone is a prophet for the Drowned God it's Patchface and Aeron doesn't matter to the god at all. Both he and Mel found salvation in religion after traumatic childhoods but she views hers as a calling for a higher purpose which is completely absent in Aeron.

Well, Baelor Blacktyde was right that Aeron's just on the middle level of Greyjoy crazy. Leaving the iron islands and exploring isn't a bad idea, but a mass exodus for an unknown land "without winter or want, where death had no dominion" and everyone would be a king or queen is where it gets nuts. (Grandiose plans and mad eyes are things Farwynd has in common with Euron, which makes it more likely to me that skinchanging is also a common thread between them, people whom Aeron deems "unholy creatures".)

Edited by Lady S.
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Brienne IV

Nimble Dick Crabb says that the coast road is the fastest way to travel where they're going. When they stop at an inn for the night, Crabb tries to get Brienne to allow him to sleep on the floor in her room but she makes it clear that she doesn't trust him. The next morning Brienne instructs Pod to stay awake the next time they sleep so that he can wake her if Nimble Dick does anything suspicious. 

Pod soon catches Nimble Dick trying to go through Brienne's saddlebags but Dick claims that he was just trying to see if Brienne really does have the gold she promised him. He thinks it's possible that she'll try to cheat him.

On the road, Nimble Dick spends a lot of time singing. Pod and Brienne never join in. She remembers how Catelyn once asked her if she ever sang for Renly. She never sang for Renly but wishes that she had. 

Nimble Dick entertains them with stories about Cracklaw Point and says it's a place where the blood of the First Men runs strong. According to Nimble Dick, the Darklyn kings of Duskendale, the Mootons of Maidenpool and the Celtigars of Crab Isle all tried to impose their rule on Cracklaw at some point.

The conversation eventually turns to local heroes and Brienne and Nimble Dick compare the exploits of Ser Clarence Crabb with those of Tarth's Ser Galladon of Morne. Nimble Dick is amused by the idea that Ser Galladon was supposedly a perfect knight who was gifted with an enchanted sword that he only ever bothered to use three times because he was too honorable to use it against a mortal man. Nimble Dick thinks that Ser Clarence would have wiped his ass with Ser Galladon if it had come down to a fight between them. Brienne can't help but smile at the points Nimble Dick makes as he argues his case. 

Nimble Dick says that the men of Cracklaw Point were all supporters of Rhaegar and mentions the men who died with Rhaegar on the Trident. He indicates that the men of Cracklaw are still "good dragon men".

Brienne pays some villagers so that she and Pod can sleep in a hay barn. Dick is left to fend for himself even though it's raining. He points out that he could steal their horses now that he isn't being watched but Brienne still doesn't allow him to sleep in the barn. As she sleeps, Brienne dreams about the fight she had with Loras at the mêlée.

Loras Tyrell had been the last to face her worth that day. He'd never courted her, had hardly looked at her at all, but he bore three golden roses on his shield that day, and Brienne hated roses. The sight of them had given her a furious strength. She went to sleep dreaming of the fight they'd had, and of Jaime fastening a rainbow cloak about her shoulders.

Later the next day, Brienne briefly finds herself wishing that Jaime had been able to travel with her on this mission. 

Once they get to a place called Dyre's Den, Pod notices a rider traveling on the road towards them. Brienne is suspicious that Nimble Dick knows who the rider is but he swears he has no idea who the rider could be.

Once they're inside of the woods, Brienne, Pod and Nimble Dick all feel as though something is wrong. The eerie stillness of the woods grates on Brienne's nerves,  and Nimble Dick can't even bring himself to sing anymore. After another day of traveling through the woods, Brienne's patience starts to wear thin. She asks Nimble Dick how much longer and worries that she might have to end up killing him. She remembers the lessons her old master at arms used to teach her and prays that she won't flinch when it's time for her to actually kill. 

They finally make it to the Whispers and begin to search the ruins of the castle. Brienne still feels uneasy and can tell that someone has recently been there. Brienne has Podrick bring her Oathkeeper and allows Nimble Dick to wield her other sword. They search inside of the castle and soon discover Shagwell and two other men. 

Shagwell kills Nimble Dick and threatens to rape Brienne. Timeon updates Brienne on the other Bloody Mummers and informs her that the bite she gave Vargo Hoat became severely infected. He says the Mountain ended up taking Vargo apart piece by piece and that his wounds were bandaged so that he didn't die right away. Urswyck and his group headed for Oldtown and Rorge headed for the Saltpans. Shagwell and the others headed for Maidenpool but were unable to get on a ship. Timeon also let's Brienne know that it's the Hound who currently has the daughter of Ned Stark. 

Brienne asks if they'll let her and Pod go if she gives them gold and Timeon promises that they'll let her go after she fucks them all. He says if she refuses then they'll just steal the gold and rape her anyway. Brienne springs into action and quickly kills Pyg. Timeon is a slightly better fighter but Brienne is still able to kill him almost as fast as she killed Pyg. 

Shagwell yields and Brienne forces him to dig a grave for Nimble Dick. She tells Dick's body that she's sorry she never trusted him. When Brienne goes to lower Dick into his grave, Shagwell has a rock in his hand and goes to make his move. Pod cries out a warning and Brienne ends up stabs Shagwell to death with a dagger. She stabs him over and over until she realizes that she's crying. She tosses two gold dragons onto Dick's body and tells Pod this is the reward she promised Dick for finding the fool. 

A man begins to laugh and Brienne realizes it's Hyle Hunt. He tells her that Randyll Tarly told him to follow her and commanded him to take Sansa back to Maidenpool if Brienne actually ends up finding her. He tells Brienne that he was ordered not to harm her. 

Brienne tells Hunt that the next step to finding Sansa is to search for the Hound. Hunt agrees to help Brienne cover Nimble Dick's body with dirt.

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Oh good, more rape threats. At least Brienne deals with them fittingly. I do feel a little sorry for Nimble Dick - he may have been something of a jerk, but he seemed about as honourable as could be expected in Westeros (at least for somebody not named Stark). If Hyle Hunt was following her, was he OK with Brienne being attacked by three of the Bloody Mummers, or was he just going to kill the survivors once she'd died?

Wonder of wonders, Brienne actually has a real lead on Arya! Granted she thinks it's Sansa, but it's progress amidst all the aimless wondering that fills Brienne's chapters.

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4 hours ago, John Potts said:

If Hyle Hunt was following her, was he OK with Brienne being attacked by three of the Bloody Mummers, or was he just going to kill the survivors once she'd died?

Wonder of wonders, Brienne actually has a real lead on Arya! Granted she thinks it's Sansa, but it's progress amidst all the aimless wondering that fills Brienne's chapters.

I don't think Hyle was there during the fighting. He was already significantly behind them and there would have been added time before the last death with Shagwell having to dig a grave using only his hands.

It is funny that this winding detour actually gives Brienne a lead. Not much use when Arya's already left the Hound and gone overseas, but still, the scumbag was being truthful and that's better info than Brienne had at the start. Plus, hunting for the Hound is what leads her into contact with Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother, which is probably the best part of her travelogue.

Actually, I ended up enjoying this chapter more than I expected. I liked the exchange of local folklore and more pre-Rebellion history. It's cute how Bri had to remind herself that she really wanted Renly when she wished that Jaime had come with her, and I liked that she got some revenge on some of the guys she and Jaime ran into before.

I felt some real pathos with the Brienne and Nimble Dick situation. He may not have really believed his fool was the fool she was looking for, but clearly he didn't realize he was leading her to the Bloody Mummers or he wouldn't have walked into that danger the way he did. It's also possible that he wasn't trying to steal from her, just checking that she wasn't trying to cheat him because he was just a hungry deserter desperate for money. Even if he did want to run off with some cash before the journey was over, he didn't deserve that gruesome and painful death. Felt bad for Brienne having to feel paranoid about this relatively harmless older guy and apologizing to his corpse. She may be a hardcore idealist but as a woman, a lone woman ostracized by society, she can't afford the luxury of being trusting.

Some nice parallels to the Stark ladies in that last scene too. Wanting a grave for Dick is like Catelyn initially wanting graves or cairns for the men who died because of her in the first mountain clansmen attack until Rodrik insisted they had no time to wait out there, and later Arya going back to the site of Amory Lorch's attack to dig a grave for Yoren. Even moreso, Brienne's killing of Shagwell reminded me a lot of Arya killing the Tickler, with the losing of all control as she repeats the baddie's own words back to him.

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The Queenmaker

Arianne meets up with her companions at the well at Shandystone. She reminisces about a time Oberyn brought her there with Tyene and Sarella and remembers how she fantasized about Oberyn "[having] his way" with her.

Ser Gerold Dayne is part of Arianne's party and she thinks to herself that Ser Gerold is highborn enough to be a worthy consort for her. She thinks he's the most handsome man in Dorne but acknowledges that he has a cruel tongue. She seems to regret bringing Darkstar along and worries how Arys will behave if he notices the way Gerold looks at her. 

They sit around a fire and everyone drinks summer wine with the exception of Darkstar. Garin entertains the group with the latest tales from the east.

If the sailors could be believed, the east was seething with wonders and terrors: a slave revolt in Astapor, dragons in Qarth, grey plague in Yi Ti. A new corsair king had risen in the Basilisk Isles and raided Tall Trees Town, and in Qohor followers of the red priests had rioted and tried to burn down the Black Goat. "And the Golden Company broke its contract with Myr, just as Myrmen were about to go to war with Lys."

Sylva suggests that the Lyseni bought the Golden Company off but Arianne knows better and suspects that Quentyn has the Golden Company behind him in order to take Dorne away from her. Arianne thinks about how well loved she is in Dorne and tells herself that a company of sellswords isn't going to change that. 

When Darkstar momentarily steps away from the group, Garin takes the opportunity to admit to Arianne that doesn't like him. Arianne says that they'll need Darkstar's sword and castle when the time comes. 

Arianne walks away from the group and starts staring at the stars. When she sees Nymeria's star, she compares herself to Nymeria and imagines that she's talking to Quentyn. She tells her brother that he won't rob her of her birthright. She thinks about how young Quentyn was when he was sent away to Yronwood and how much it upset her mother to have Quentyn taken from her.

Darkstar interrupts Arianne's thoughts and tells her that he doesn't think her plan is going to go the way she wants. Gerold says that if she really wants to start a war with the Lannisters, the easiest way to do that will be by killing Myrcella. Arianne tells Gerold that Myrcella is under her protection. When she mentions that Arys Oakheart will be there to protect Myrcella, Gerold points out that the Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years. 

Arys escorts Myrcella to Arianne and her group. Garin, Sylva, and Drey all bow to Myrcella and she is addressed as "Your Grace". Myrcella is worried that something has happened to Tommen and asks Arys who these people are. Arianne comes forward and tells Myrcella that she's among friends and explains to her that Tommen has stolen the Iron Throne away from her. Myrcella is confused and says that Tommen never stole the Iron Throne. Arianne points out that Myrcella is older than Tommen and that this means the Iron Throne should go to her. 

Gerold goes down on one knee to greet Myrcella but eyes her coolly. When Myrcella mentions Arthur Dayne, Gerold tells her that he was the Sword of the Morning. Myrcella asks if Darkstar is the Sword of the Morning now and he admits that he isn't. Later, he complains to Arianne that his cousin Arthur is the only Dayne people seem to remember even though House Dayne stretches back some ten thousand years. 

Arys pulls Arianne aside and tells her that Tywin Lannister is dead. Arianne is shocked and even more surprised when she learns that Cersei has assumed the Regency. She tells herself this is good news for their side and imagines that it will be easier for the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to bend the knee to Myrcella since they'll already be adjusted to the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne with Cersei currently serving as Queen Regent. 

Arianne asks Arys if he and Myrcella ran into any problems and Arys says that the only problem is Trystane. Trystane wants to play cyvasse with Myrcella and doesn't and understand why he can't. The girl pretending to be Myrcella is her cousin Rosamund and Myrcella even helped her curl her hair so that she would be a convincing look alike. Arys wants to know where they're headed but Arianne evades the question and says that it's time for them to ride. 

As they ride, Myrcella learns a little more history about the Dornish people. She talks about playing cyvasse with Trystane and explains why she's always able to beat him. She also mentions that she's tried to teach her cousin how to play but Rosamund thinks the game is too hard. Myrcella says that she and Rosamund switched places once before on the journey over to Braavos. Septa Eglantine dyed Myrcella's hair brown and had Rosamund dress in Myrcella's clothes in case their ship ended up being overtaken by Stannis. 

Arianne plans on crowning Myrcella at Hellholt and decides that she'll raise her banners there. Arianne thinks it's a safe bet since four of the Sandsnakes are Lord Ullers granddaughters. They'll take a pole boat down the Greenblood until they get to the Vaith. Beyond the Vaith they'll pass through the deep sands and eventually make it to Hellholt.

A pole boat is waiting for them but Arianne wonders why she doesn't see anyone from the boat's crew. Garin calls to the people on the boat and soon the door on the boat slams open. Areo Hotah steps out and signals for a dozen guardsmen to join him. The guardsmen aim crossbows at Arianne and her party. Areo tells Arianne that if she doesn't yield, he and his men will be forced to kill everyone save herself and Myrcella. 

Garin and Drey immediately yield but Arys tells Areo that he won't allow "her" to be taken while he's alive. Darkstar and Drey both urge Arys to put away his sword since they're outnumbered, but Arianne can't bring herself to speak. Arys charges for the pole boat and is hit with multiple bolts before he reaches the deck. He tries to fight Areo, but Areo easily kills him.

Arianne screams and is on her hands and knees as she vomits in the sand. She sobs and tells herself that no one was supposed to get hurt. She hears Myrcella shrieking and sees that the girl is on the ground. Myrcella is holding her face in her hands and blood is running through her fingers. Arianne doesn't understand what just happened. She hears Areo yelling for his men to go after someone and says that the man must not escape. 

Arianne doesn't resist when the guardsmen tie her hands behind her back. They take away her throwing knife and Areo tells her that he's been ordered to take her back to Sunspear. Arianne asks how her father could find out about her plan when she was so careful about everything. Areo tells her that someone told on her. He shrugs and says that someone always tells.

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21 hours ago, John Potts said:

Oh good, more rape threats. At least Brienne deals with them fittingly. I do feel a little sorry for Nimble Dick - he may have been something of a jerk, but he seemed about as honourable as could be expected in Westeros (at least for somebody not named Stark). If Hyle Hunt was following her, was he OK with Brienne being attacked by three of the Bloody Mummers, or was he just going to kill the survivors once she'd died?

Wonder of wonders, Brienne actually has a real lead on Arya! Granted she thinks it's Sansa, but it's progress amidst all the aimless wondering that fills Brienne's chapters.

Ugh.  A search going nowhere is bad enough but when the readers KNOW it's going nowhere, that's even worse.  Thanks, George!

I admit, even though he's a Jaime stand-in, I do like the Hyle Hunt character.

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2 hours ago, benteen said:

Ugh.  A search going nowhere is bad enough but when the readers KNOW it's going nowhere, that's even worse.  Thanks, George!

I admit, even though he's a Jaime stand-in, I do like the Hyle Hunt character.

This was one of my big problems with Brienne’s storyline in AFfC. We know where Sansa and Arya are so we know she’s no where close to finding them. There’s not even the suspense of “Maybe she’ll find [insert Stark girl]” when she chases different leads. We know she’s not going to find them. It makes for a painfully boring read. 

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53 minutes ago, glowbug said:

This was one of my big problems with Brienne’s storyline in AFfC. We know where Sansa and Arya are so we know she’s no where close to finding them.

I do wonder why GRRM chose to write it the way he did*, with us seeing Brienne tracking them and then hearing what had really happened (presumably in flashback). It would be like watching Columbo (so you know the solution from the start) but then had the detective fail to spot the clues.

* Because obviously I know better than a bestselling author!

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21 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Arys pulls Arianne aside and tells her that Tywin Lannister is dead. Arianne is shocked and even more surprised when she learns that Cersei has assumed the Regency. She tells herself this is good news for their side and imagines that it will be easier for the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to bend the knee to Myrcella since they'll already be adjusted to the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne with Cersei currently serving as Queen Regent. 

Yet another sign that Arianne doesn't know what she's doing. She obviously knows little about Cersei or public opinion of her if she thinks Cersei's leadership will advance the cause of womankind and change the perception of female rulers. Also, why is she more surprised that Cersei is ruling? She was already regent, even if her power was more nominal when Tywin was living in King's Landing. There's nothing unprecedented about the Queen Regent as opposed to a Queen regnant.

Arys is the real Grade-A moron, though. His two princesses were specifically not in danger from Areo and his men so he had no reason to throw his life away like that. Not only that, it was after his heedless charge that Myrcella actually was in danger. I can only assume his shame over his sex life made him panic into a heroic last stand when they got caught in this stupid scheme because he couldn't live with being exposed as an oathbreaker.

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I rolled my eyes hard when Arys told Arianne that the reason she has to wear a veil is because her beauty would outshine the sun. 

I don't get how Arys thinks that throwing his life away would protect anyone. I wonder what would have happened to him if he'd yielded and returned with the group to Sunspear. Would Doran have written to Cersei to have her send a different member of the Kingsguard to guard Myrcella? Would he have given Arys another chance or would he be too worried that Arys would somehow be able to help Arianne escape?

Why is Darkstar so desperate to start a war with the Lannisters? Is it just because of Oberyn and Elia (and her children)? I don't get the impression they mean all that much to him.

I wonder why Arianne didn't learn to fight when she was young. It seems like it would be a useful skill and the Dornish are more open to that sort of thing.

Brienne's chapter was mostly boring but I did like getting some of the history of Cracklaw Point. When Nimble Dick mentioned the Squishers, it made me think of that House where most of the members have webbed hands and feet.

Brienne getting a stale ass lead about Arya wasn't exciting in the least. The show definitely did a better job with her storyline. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Why is Darkstar so desperate to start a war with the Lannisters? Is it just because of Oberyn and Elia (and her children)? I don't get the impression they mean all that much to him.

I don't think he cares about Elia and the children one way or another.

He may be following his own agenda, but then, he may also be completely innocent of the charges that have been laid against him. His instinct is to yield. He tells Oakheart to yield, him and Drey. His life too is hanging in the balance at that point. So him charging Myrcella and cutting up her face after we know that Doran is lying through his teeth about what happened to Arys is questionable. Darkstar is jerk enough to try and kill Myrcella, but Hotah's orders are to kill everyone in Arianne's party save for her and Myrcella to teach her a lesson if she doesn't yield. This is how far he was willing to go.

Moreover, Doran knows that Myrcella is a bastard born of incest. He received too received that letter from Stannis, yet he keeps the girl betrothed to his son. 

If anything, I think Darkstar was the informant in that little group. He arrives at Shandystone a whole day ahead of everyone, he leaves the group at one point to pee and he is the only one who doesn't share that skin of wine that's being passed around. 

And honestly, if Myrcella had been killed, were the Lannister soldiers going to mass along the Dornish borders and invade? Tywin has just died. He was who people feared. I don't think Doran holds Cersei as high in his esteem as Arianne does.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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14 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

He may be following his own agenda, but then, he may also be completely innocent of the charges that have been laid against him. His instinct is to yield. He tells Oakheart to yield, him and Drey. His life too is hanging in the balance at that point. So him charging Myrcella and cutting up her face after we know that Doran is lying through his teeth about what happened to Arys is questionable. Darkstar is jerk enough to try and kill Myrcella, but Hotah's orders are to kill everyone in Arianne's party save for her and Myrcella to teach her a lesson if she doesn't yield. This is how far he was willing to go.

 

I don't understand what you're getting at, that one of Doran's men mutilated Myrcella for some reason? Darkstar's life was hanging in the balance, yes, but that doesn't negate his earlier desire to kill her. He tried to protect his own skin first, unlike Arys, but when that idiot caused a distraction he had an opening both to try to kill Myrcella and to escape, which was better for him than yielding and being Doran's prisoner. Areo was going to kill anyone who refused to yield, save for the royals, which should mean any of Ari's friends who tried to fight or run, not that he'd kill the others depending on if Arianne kept being stubborn whether they were yielding or not.

Why should Doran care that Myrcella's a bastard born of incest? It's a show betrothal until a Targ invasion happens and his actual marriage wishes always included one of his kids marrying a product of incest. The only difference is Lannister incest was out of wedlock but Cersei's kids would be usurpers to the Martells no matter what since Robert, after taking his throne over the dead bodies of Elia's children and rewarding their murderer, was just as much their enemy as the Lannisters.

 

On 9/27/2018 at 7:39 PM, Avaleigh said:

I wonder what would have happened to him if he'd yielded and returned with the group to Sunspear. Would Doran have written to Cersei to have her send a different member of the Kingsguard to guard Myrcella? Would he have given Arys another chance or would he be too worried that Arys would somehow be able to help Arianne escape?

Why is Darkstar so desperate to start a war with the Lannisters? Is it just because of Oberyn and Elia (and her children)? I don't get the impression they mean all that much to him.

I wonder why Arianne didn't learn to fight when she was young. It seems like it would be a useful skill and the Dornish are more open to that sort of thing.

 

If Myrcella had come away unharmed I think Doran would want to keep the whole thing secret from Cersei. So Arys could be locked up and Myrcella protected by his own guards.

I don't think there's too much logic to be analyzed in a character who declares he is of the night and he was weaned on viper venom. The series is full of young men who want to go to war just for the sake of it, this clown is just a bit, ahem, darker than the knights of summer. All of them hate the Lannister and he could have wanted to prove himself as badass or more than Oberyn after socializing with Arianne and probably some of the Sand Snakes too. GRRM did apparently say he was trying to go for some of that Oberyn appeal when he made Darkstar.

She may have wanted to, but she was Doran's daughter, not Oberyn's. It may be acceptable in Dorne but that doesn't mean common, and Doran was (very badly) planning for her to Queen someday and none of them had been warriors since the dragonriding days.

Edited by Lady S.
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Never mind. I think it will be easier to go through this once we reach the Prince in the Tower chapter.

ETA: Also, about Brienne's last chapter and the exposition we got about Crackclaw Point, First Men descendants who bent the knee to the dragons. This might end up being important in future books. 

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Arya II

Each night before sleep, she murmured her prayer into her pillow. "Ser Gregor," it went. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." She would have whispered the names of the Freys of the Crossing too, if she had known them. One day I'll know, she told herself, and then I'll kill them all.

The kindly man asks Arya about the names that she whispers every night. At first Arya tries to deny it, but the kindly man can tell that she's lying. He knows she's afraid but coaxes her into revealing that she whispers the names of the people she hates. The kindly man asks her if she's come to the House of Black and White so that she can learn to kill all of the people she hates. When Arya admits that this may be the reason she's come, the kindly man tells her that it isn't up to her to decide who lives or dies and says that this is a gift that belongs to the Many-Faced God. 

Everyday the kindly man asks Arya who she is. She always tells him that she is "no one" but remembers all of the name and nicknames that she's ever gone by. When she thinks about the names she's had since leaving King's Landing, she knows in her "heart of hearts" that she'll always be Arya of Winterfell. 

The kindly man is the only one who speaks the Common Tongue, so Arya has no way of communicating with the other people who live in the House of Black and White. 

Worshipers come everyday to the House of Black and White. Some go to pray and a few go so that they can drink out of the black cup and go to sleep forever. 

The kindly man tells Arya that she may go home any time she wishes but reminds her that if she chooses to leave the temple she won't be allowed to return. 

Every morning Arya accompanies the kindly man as he makes his circuit around the temple looking for the bodies of the people who have chosen to drink from the black cup. Acolytes strip and wash the bodies and afterwards the clothes and valuables of the dead people are sorted. The last step is for the bodies to be taken to the lowest level of the temple. Arya isn't allowed to go down there and she briefly worries that the dead bodies are being used for food, until the kindly man reassures her that they aren't into cannibalism. 

Arya still practices with Needle when she has the time and one day, the Waif catches her practicing her needlework. The next day, the kindly man informs her that she must rid herself of her all possessions if she is truly to become no one. The kindly man tells Arya that she only plays at being a servant and says that in her heart of hearts she's still a lord's daughter. He says that if she can't entirely give herself to the God of Many Faces then she'll have to leave. 

The kindly man lets Arya know that she has other options than remaining at the House of Black and White. He tells her that he could find a better serving job for her.  He says that she could be a courtesan if she liked. He says that he could find her a rich husband or some apprentice boy or seafarer. He says that she may have whatever she desires. She could even go back to Westeros if she wants and they'll find a ship to take her there. 

The kindly man says that many people have served the Many-Faced God over the centuries but only a few Faceles Men have been women. 

"It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you here to be His instrument, but when I look at you I see a child . . . and worse, a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both."

Arya thinks that the kindly man is trying to scare her away and tells him that she could give up everything if she wanted. The kindly man tells her that she can start proving this by getting rid of all of her stuff. Later that night, Arya dumps her possessions into the canal. She drops everything into the water but Needle. She tries to tell herself that Needle is just a sword and that she'll be able to use any of the swords at the House of Black and White if she needs one. She tells herself again that Needle is "just a sword" but realizes this isn't true.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

Arya decides that the old gods of the north wanted her to have Needle, so she hides it under a stone and returns to the temple. She tells herself that one day she might need Needle again. She never tells the kindly man that she's hidden Needle but she suspects that he knows anyway. 

The kindly man tells Arya how the Faceless Men came to be and reveals that the organization existed before Braavos was founded. The Faceless Men first took root in Valyria from the slaves who were forced to work down in the mines beneath the Fourteen Flames. The slaves came from all over the known world and prayed to a host of different gods in different languages. One day it occurred to the first Faceless Man that the slaves were basically all praying to the same god--"one god with a hundred different faces". The first of the Faceless Men soon decided that he was this god's instrument and chose the most miserable of the slaves to receive the gift of death.

Arya is upset when she realizes that the first Faceless Man killed one of the slaves and argues that the guy should have killed the slave masters instead. The kindly man says that the first of the Faceless Men would indeed eventually bring the gift to the masters but says that this is a story for another day.

The kindly man tells Arya that she's going to start taking lessons from the waif. The waif is going to start by teaching Arya to speak Braavosi while Arya will teach the waif the Common Tongue. They also start playing the lying game and the waif seems to always know when Arya is lying. During the game, Arya learns that the waif isn't the little girl she appears to be but is actually a thirty six year old woman who has spent her life serving the Many-Faced God. 

Arya asks the kindly man about Jaqen H'ghar but the kindly man swears that he doesn't know anyone by that name. 

Arya begins to help the other acolytes with preparing the corpses. She wonders what makes these people choose to drink from the black pool. It reminds her of a story Old Nan used to tell about old men who would suddenly announce that they'd be going "hunting" during a long winter.

When Arya's Braavosi is good enough for her to be understood, she is told to leave the temple to spend some time working for a man named Brusco. She'll help Brusco by selling cockles, clams, and mussels to the sailors. The kindly man asks Arya what name she'll go by while she's working for Brusco, and Arya decides that she'll call herself Cat. The kindly man gives Cat a backstory and says that she'll be an orphan who is new to Braavos.

Arya leaves the House of Black and White that evening dressed like an orphan. As she heads for Ragman's Harbor, she starts chanting the names on her list. She's so happy that she feels like she could dance.

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Arya's reflection on Needle always breaks my heart. Her arc is generally sad. A young girl looking for a place to belong and somewhere she can call home. The things she does to not be sent away because she has nowhere to go is never not going to resonate for me. 

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On 10/14/2018 at 7:46 PM, Avaleigh said:

The last step is for the bodies to be taken to the lowest level of the temple. Arya isn't allowed to go down there and she briefly worries that the dead bodies are being used for food, until the kindly man reassures her that they aren't into cannibalism. 

I always forget just how many cannibalism references there are in FeastDance. At least this is only theoretical. They're just using the dead bodies to make creepy magical shape-shifting masks! 

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I was surprised by how much I enjoyed this chapter. The paragraph where Arya realizes how much Needle means to her and how it represents her old life is so well done. I lol at the "even Sansa" bit. Not that I think we'll ever get it but stuff like that does make me wonder what the Arya Sansa reunion will eventually be like in the books. She's clearly still holding a little bit of a grudge but at the same time, she doesn't want to leave Sansa out of her memories and I think would be happy to see her again especially if they were to meet in Winterfell with Jon around. 

I wonder why the kindly man is okay with Arya keeping Needle hidden? Is this an indication that she'll continue to get special treatment the way she did on the show. (By being allowed to leave with no strings attached knowing that she's going to use her training to kill whoever she pleases.)

I agree with Benteen that the story of the origin of the Faceless Men is fun. I also liked the mention of the firewyrms and how they're likely connected to the creation of dragons (along with the wyverns). I also appreciated Arya's outrage that the slave was killed as opposed to one of the masters. I wonder what Dany's Valyrian ancestors would think about her stance on slavery?

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10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I wonder why the kindly man is okay with Arya keeping Needle hidden?

There's no way her book Braavos arc will get as wacky and nonsensical as the show's, and that hung on the premise of them using the same Jaqen actor from s2 whereas the kindly man is a stranger with no reason to take a personal interest in Arya. I'd guess she's given more leeway because she's still just an acolyte and free to leave if she wants to. I have a feeling her

Spoiler

murder of Raff will be a breaking point but even then she was never even deemed close to being "no one"/a full FM so there's nothing to say she can't be kicked out without penalties. 

I don't see book Arya stealing and using faces once she's back in Westeros, she'll probably never even learn that secret art.

Arya's insistence that the slavers, not the slave, should have killed is another sign that she is driven by notions of injustice and deep unfairness rather than just personal vengeance. Also, House Frey is name and I don't get why she couldn't just add to her list, so I'm assuming she cares about knowing who is specifically culpable for the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding was bad but it'd be pretty unfair if she meant to kill every last Frey in Westeros while Cersei and Joffrey were the only Lannisters on the list.

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Alayne I

Now that Lysa is dead, "Alayne" has been given a nicer set of rooms in the Maiden's Tower at the Eyrie. She spends some time marveling at the beauty of the Vale and thinks about how cold it will be once winter has come. 

Each of the Lords Declarant have brought a thousand men with them and have made a pact together "vowing to defend Lord Robert, the Vale, and one another " They don't mention Littlefinger in their declaration but speak about "false friends and evil counselors".

Littlefinger let's Alayne have Lysa's wardrobe and she has a maid who alters the gowns so that they'll fit. Alayne is continuing to darken her hair but worries about what will happen when the dye runs out. She dresses for breakfast and joins Robert who's complaining that he hasn't been given eggs and bacon to eat. With the Lords Declarant encamped at the food of the mountain, Mya Stone hasn't been allowed to bring fresh food as she usually does. Lord Belmore sent Littlefinger a raven that no more food would be coming up until Lord Robert is sent down the mountain. 

Robert says that he wants to go back to bed because he couldn't sleep during the night. He claims that he was kept awake by Marillion's singing. Robert doesn't believe that Marillion is dead and Alayne worries that Robert might be mad in addition to being frail and sickly. 

When Robert starts throwing a tantrum over only having porridge to eat, Littlefinger walks in and tells Robert that he'll eat his porridge and be thankful for it. Maester Coleman comes in with Littlefinger and informs Robert that his bannermen are traveling up the mountain to come and see him. Robert wants them to be sent away and says that he'll make them fly if they come, but Littlefinger tells Robert that he has promised the Lords Declarant safe conduct.

Alayne asks what the Lords Declarant want of them and Littlefinger says they simply want Lord Robert and the Vale. Lord Nestor Royce and Ser Lyn Corbray will be among the people who are coming. Alayne thinks a little about what she knows of Lyn Corbray. 

Lyn Corbray had slain almost as many men in duels as he had in battle. He had won his spurs during Robert's Rebellion, she knew, fighting first against Lord Jon Arryn at the gates of Gulltown, and later beneath his banners on the Trident, where he had cut down Prince Lewyn of Dorne, a white knight of the Kingsguard. Petyr said that Prince Lewyn had been sorely wounded by the time the tide of battle swept him to his final dance with Lady Forlorn, but added, "That's not a point you'll want to raise with Corbray, though. Those who do are soon given the chance to ask Martell the truth of it, down in the halls of hell." If even half of what she had heard from Lord Robert's guards was true, Lyn Corbray was more dangerous than all of the six Lords Declarant put together.

Robert says that he doesn't like Ser Lyn and says that he didn't give Lyn permission to come to the Eyrie anyway. Littlefinger reminds Robert that his mother is dead and says that he will personally be ruling the Eyrie until Robert turns sixteen. 

When Littlefinger tries to make Robert eat his porridge, Robert throws the bowl at him. Littlefinger moves out of the way so it ends up hitting Maester Coleman and porridge splashes into his face. Robert starts having a shaking spell and Littlefinger watches in disgust. Once Robert stops shaking, Littlefinger orders for him to be taken away so that he can be leeched. 

Maester Coleman tells Littlefinger that Robert's shaking sickness has gotten worse since Lysa's death. Littlefinger suggests that Coleman give Robert a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk to calm him and stop him from shaking. Coleman says he'll do it but emphasises that he shouldn't give it to him too much or too often. 

Once Littlefinger and Alayne are alone, she addresses him as "Father" and asks him if he would like to have some porridge for breakfast. Littlefinger admits that he despises porridge and says that he would rather have a kiss for breakfast. Alayne gives Littlefinger a quick kiss on the cheek and while he tells her that she's being dutiful, she can tell that he's disappointed. 

Littlefinger tells her to give the cooks orders to prepare mulled wine for their visitors. Alayne is to meet their guests when they arrive to offer them refreshments. Littlefinger instructs her not to wear any of Lysa's gowns and to avoid the colors of Houses Tully and Arryn. Alayne reminds Littlefinger that Bronze knows who she really is and says that not only did he see Sansa Stark at Winterfell but they met again during the tourney at King's Landing. Littlefinger doesn't seem concerned and says that men generally see what they want to see.

Alayne asks Littlefinger why he doesn't just go to Harrenhal since the castle belongs to him, but Littlefinger basically dismisses it as a cursed ruin. He talks about how everyone who has been given Harrenhal has suffered a premature death. Alayne suggests that he give the castle to Lord Frey and this makes Littlefinger laugh. He suggests that he give the castle to Cersei but admits that she's been kind to him lately and is even sending him some tapestries. 

Alayne points out that Cersei isn't kind and says that she scares her. She worries about Cersei finding out where she is and Littlefinger says if that happens, he'll have to remove Cersei from the game sooner than he'd planned--assuming that Cersei doesn't remove herself first. 

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn.

Alayne makes sure that the cooks make the refreshments for their guests. She thinks about how once the Lords Declarant eat their bread and salt that they'll officially be their guests and won't be able to harm them. She thinks about how the Freys broke the laws of hospitality but decides that a lord like Yohn Royce is too noble to do something like that.

Alayne is tempted to wear one of Lysa's gowns but she remembers that Alayne is a bastard and decides on something modest. When she stares at herself in Lysa's looking glass, she thinks there's no way that Lord Royce will recognize her. 

Alayne greets the Lords Declarant and offers them wine, bread and cheese. When Yohn Royce arrives, Alayne remembers the time he visited Winterfell. She feels sure that he'll remember her and briefly considers throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. She then remembers that Yohn didn't fight for Robb and asks herself why he would he would fight for her especially since Winterfell has fallen. 

When Bronze Yohn looks at Alayne, he squints his eyes and asks her if he knows her. Before Alayne can think of how to respond, Lord Nestor explains that she is Littlefinger's natural daughter. Lyn Corbray jokes that Littlefinger's little finger has been busy and this makes Alayne blush with embarrassment. 

Lady Waynwood asks Alayne how old she is and she tells them that she's fourteen. Corbray talks about how Alayne won't be a virgin much longer, so Lady Waynwood scolds him for his lack of courtesy. Corbray tells Lady Waynwood to mind her own business and reminds her that he's killed a bunch of men who had the nerve chastise him.

Alayne brings the group to the solar to talk with Littlefinger. Littlefinger asks the lords and lady what they want of him and they say that they want to take Robert to be fostered at Runestone so that he can learn to become a knight. 

Littlefinger tells the group about the efforts he's made so that Robert will have companions his own age and asks Lady Waynwood if she'll send Harrold Hardyng to be a kind of mentor for Robert. Yohn Royce says that Harry will befriend Robert but that he'll do so at Runestone. 

They debate back and forth about the best place for Robert to be. Littlefinger refuses to yield and says that as Robert's stepfather and Lord Protector of the Vale, the boy's place is with him.

Lyn Corbray says he's tired of talking and tells the group that the only way to deal with a man like Littlefinger is with steel. He unsheathes Lady Forlorn and tells Littlefinger to either borrow a sword or use the dagger he has. Lothor Brune reaches for his own sword but Bronze Yohn interrupts the escalating situation and asks Lyn if he's a Corbray or a Frey. He reminds Corbray that they're guests and the others in the group join with Royce and tell him to put Lady Forlorn away. 

Corbray snorts in disgust and tells the Lords Declarant that they should have named themselves Six Old Women. Corbray leaves the solar and Hunter apologizes for his behavior.

Littlefinger goes off on the group and tells them that they're lucky he doesn't have them all arrested. He tells them to go home and leave him and his son in peace. He agrees that there has been misrule at the Vale but says those were down to Lysa's choices, not his. He asks that they give him a year and with Lord Nestor's help, the Lords Declarant won't have any cause for grievances.

He goes on to say that the Lords Declarant claim that they want to defend Lord Robert but are currently denying him food. He says that if they don't lift the siege that he'll fight and will bring in men from King's Landing if necessary. 

The lords and Lady Waynwood weigh what Littlefinger has to say and decide that he's being reasonable. Littlefinger agrees that if he hasn't made things right in the Vale within the next year that he'll step down as Lord Protector. 

The Lords Declarant agree that Littlefinger may have the year that he asks for. Bronze Yohn warns Littlefinger to use his year wisely and says that not everyone is fooled by him.

Alayne thinks that Littlefinger has bewitched them all. Later that night she goes to see Littlefinger and asks him what will happen in a year. He tells her one or two of the men will likely be dead, and he'll be able to bribe or befriend the others. When Alayne asks about Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger says that he'll be able to buy Lyn with boys, gold, and promises. 

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Like how "Are you a Frey?" is being used as an insult - it's a good reminder that the Red Wedding is meant to be the ultimate taboo. Also like LF's comment that, "even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn" - whatever your plans, other people don't know about them and may have plans of their own and may not go along with your ideas of what you think they're going to do.

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Really enjoyed this chapter.

Stuff I liked:

When the discussion turns to Harrenhal and Littlefinger starts listing the people and families who have had the place and ended up with a bad fate, Sansa's like 'whay don't you just give it to Lord Frey?' Lol. Nice too that Littlefinger thinks giving it to Cersei would be even better. It was also fun to see that he can already sense that Cersei isn't going to live long and is already tripping herself up.

Liked Sansa pondering the idea of pleading for Bronze Yohn to protect her. I can't decide whether or not she should have done that but at least it would likely get her away from Littlefinger. Also, Yohn does recognize her. I think he would likely protect her if given the chance.

Littlefinger giving Robert shit for not eating his porridge only to turn around and admit that he personally can't stand porridge. Then he has Maester Coleman start dosing Robert with sweetsleep because he wants to keep him docile. He's such a dick with this kid. It would be better for him to be fostered at Runestone but he (and Lysa's influence) are destroying any chance of this kid becoming a normal person who plays well with others.

The Vale sounds like the prettiest of the seven kingdoms. The descriptions of it and the Eyrie are beautiful. 

Even though I am not rooting for Littlefinger, I thought he had a point about the Lords Declarant denying Robert food at the same time they're claiming that they want to protect him. I understand why they did it, but you can sort of see why they had no verbal comeback for thst when Littlefinger mentioned it. Lol, at his nerve for trying to get Harry the Heir under his roof. 

Lyn Corbray sounds like a dangerous baby. He whines when people tell him to stop being an asshole and threatens to put people in their graves for speaking the truth. It sucks that a guy like him gets the street cred of having killed Prince Lewyn although at least it seems fairly well known that Lewyn was already wounded before Corbray took him out. 

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Great post, Avaleigh!

I find it fascinating that even someone like Littlefinger doesn't want to touch a place like Harrenhal.  He doesn't seem like the type to believe in curses but he's not going to ignore history either when it comes to that place.

As I recall, Sansa recalls Bronze Yohn dominating both Ned and Ser Rodrik in the training yard.  Ned is portrayed as a great swordsman on the show but GRRM has said that he's only a little above average swordsman on the show.  That memory is an example.  Ned's strength is as a general and lord.

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On 10/24/2018 at 9:04 PM, Avaleigh said:

When Alayne asks about Lyn Corbray, Littlefinger says that he'll be able to buy Lyn with boys, gold, and promises. 

To be precise, he'd already bought Lyn Corbray and that was the most important part of the chapter for me. I was impressed that Sansa figured out something was fishy about that meeting and when she confronts Petyr and he says Lyn will remain "his implacable enemy" she realizes that it's all an act. He caused a scene and almost broke guest right so the rest of the Lords Declarant could be shamed and be more amenable to giving Baelish his one-year probation period. If we take the boys part literally (as in he's not just gay like Renly but prefers children) then that gives a sinister implication to Sweetrobin's dislike of Lyn Corbray as opposed his general unfriendliness and fear of outsiders.

I would have liked this cut a bit short with Sansa revealing herself to Yohn Royce and I think he would want to help her if she asked, but she doesn't know him well enough to be sure and it is a good point that none of the Royces fought for Robb. I'd think Robar could have done his summer-knighting with Robb instead of Renly if he'd really wanted to. (Though he'd probably still be doomed with Robb just in a different setting at a later time.)

I don't think it will ever come to this in the books either but I do wonder how Littlefinger would try to take out Cersei if she found out he was harboring Sansa, being that he's now hundreds of miles away from her.

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I do like Sansa remembering Waymar Royce. Waymar died in the opening pages of the book series and he is the son of the powerful Bronze Yohn Royce. It seems an important reminder and maybe Bronze Yohn will have a role to play during the Long Night, with that runic armor of his.

Littlefinger is such a viper. What does he want with the Vale when he has the rule of the riverlands? The man has had a full revenge against the Starks when he sold Ned out, and he is now the Lord Paramount of the riverlands and the Trident, taking that away from the Tullys who had been ruling there since the Conquest. Yes, the riverlands have been decimated by the war and Harrenhal is cursed, but it doesn't seem like it is reason enough for him to neglect it the way he has. 

Anya Waynwood's quip to Lyn Corbray about them not being Freys is funny, considering her kin married into that family and she is fostering two Frey children belonging to said kin in her home (one of them named Sandor, which is sort of hilarious). I wonder if a number of Houses started cursing these marriages they have made with the Freys.

The nasty comments Sansa was subjected to by Lyn (whom I am ashamed to say I enjoy as a character), Lord Hunter and Belmore, the second they think they are in the company of a bastard, they sink lower than low. 

How long is Lyn Cobray going to be in Littlefinger's pocket I wonder. Littlefinger is going to be arranging his brother's marriage soon. And marriage means babies, which pushes Lyn down the line of succession. 

I think Bronze Yohn knows Alayne is Sansa. She thinks about the time he visited Winterfell, but Bronze Yohn was in King's Landing for the tourney of the Hand. I think he may have a pretty good idea who and what he is dealing with by the time he leaves the Eyrie. 

Edited by YaddaYadda
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On 10/29/2018 at 3:18 PM, YaddaYadda said:

Littlefinger is such a viper. What does he want with the Vale when he has the rule of the riverlands? The man has had a full revenge against the Starks when he sold Ned out, and he is now the Lord Paramount of the riverlands and the Trident, taking that away from the Tullys who had been ruling there since the Conquest. Yes, the riverlands have been decimated by the war and Harrenhal is cursed, but it doesn't seem like it is reason enough for him to neglect it the way he has. 

The Vale is Petyr's home region and the Eyrie is much nicer than Harrenhal. I don't think he wanted the riverlands titles as anything more than a step up the ladder so he could marry Lysa as an equal. She would have married him regardless but I can see the snobby Lannisters not considering him for a political marriage on the king's behalf unless they had raised him up some. I'm sure he learned another lesson when he asked for Sansa's hand right away and Cersei thought he was "much too lowborn". Why should he want to pacify the riverlands by force and fix up a ruined behemoth of a castle when he's only out to advance himself and has never shown any sense of feudal duty?

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Cersei V

Tommen is pouting because his mother won't allow him to sit on the Iron Throne. When Tommen points out the Joffrey was always allowed to sit on the throne, Cersei claims that this is because Joffrey was older. When Tommen reminds his mother that he's the king and that the Iron Throne belongs to him, Cersei can tell that he's being influenced by Margaery.

Cersei asks Tommen if Margaery has been having these conversations with him and says that if he lies to her that she'll have his whipping boy Pate beaten until he bleeds. Tommen admits that Margaery has told him that he should start sitting on the Iron Throne and attending small council meetings so that he can learn to be a king. Cersei tells him that he's too young to understand the matters that the small council discusses but promises that he'll be able to attend as many meetings as he likes when he's older.

Cersei thinks about how she's waited all of her life to finally be able to rule. She thinks Tommen should be able to wait the way she once did and vows that she'll be the one to rule until he comes of age. 

Cersei has meetings with Lord Rosby and Aurane Waters and later speaks with some merchant guild members. The merchants are concerned about the growing number of sparrows in King's Landing. Cersei considers using the gold cloaks to chase the sparrows out of the city. 

Pycelle has been complaining about the men Aurane Waters wants to have captain the new ships. Aurane wants younger men to fill the positions but Pycelle argues that the commands should go to the captains who survived the Battle of the Blackwater. Cersei sides with Aurane and dismisses the men Pycelle suggests as being too old. She tells Pycelle that the only thing the old captains proved they were good at was swimming.

Cersei is informed that Wyman Manderly has beheaded Stannis's onion knight. Manderly has the knight's head and hands mounted about the walls of White Harbor. The Freys confirm the story so Cersei agrees to have Manderly's son returned to him now that he's proved his loyalty. 

White Harbor would soon return the king's peace, and Roose Bolton and his bastard son were closing in on Moat Cailin from south and north. Once the Moat was theirs, they would join their strength and clear the iron men out of Torrhen's Square and Deepwood Motte as well. That should win them the allegiance of Ned Stark's remaining bannermen when the time came to March against Lord Stannis.

Cersei brushes off the representative of the Iron Bank and tells him to try speaking with Lord Rosby for a seventh time. When Osmund Kettleblack escorts her back to her apartments, she asks for an update on Osney's progress with seducing Margaery. Osmund admits that Osney hasn't been able to seduce Margaery and Cersei wonders if a different guy would have better luck. She wonders if Margaery would be more responsive to Aurane or maybe a big guy like Ser Tallad. Osmund says the problem is that Margaery is never alone and always has lots of people around her. 

When Cersei and Osmund reach the yard, they see Tommen practicing at jousting with Ser Loras. Margaery and her cousins all cheer Tommen on and he gets excited when he manages to break a lance. Loras tells him that he'll have to practice every day if he wants to be good. Cersei tells Tommen that he did very well and tells him that jousting is in his blood. She says that he'll rule all of the lists the way his father once did. Margaery asks Cersei which tourneys Robert won and says that she didn't realize that Robert had been an accomplished jouster. Cersei blushes when she realizes that she was thinking of Jaime when she spoke and not Robert. Cersei tells Margaery that Robert won the tourney of the Trident where he overthrew Prince Rhaegar. 

Cersei tells Loras off for helping Tommen ride at the quintain. She tells him that his job is to protect Tommen and says that any training will be done by a master-at-arms. Loras says that the Red Keep hasn't had a master-at-arms since Aron Santagar was killed and says that Tommen is at the age where he should already be a squire. Cersei says that she'll immediately see to naming a new master-at-arms and Loras responds by telling her that she isn't going to find a man who is more skilled than he is. Cersei doesn't want Tommen to grow close to Loras and tells Loras that Tommen is his king, not his squire. 

Cersei thinks about where she's going to find a master-at-arms and decides that she can't look to anyone from the Kingsguard because that'll seem like even more of an insult to Highgarden. She has other plans for the Kettleblacks and finds herself wishing that the Hound were still around. She remembers that Aron Santagar was Dornish and decides that a Dornishman might be the right guy for the job. 

Qyburn gives Cersei an update on the Free Cities and Essos. He says there are rumors of dragons and says there are slave rebellions in Astapor and Meereen. Cersei isn't concerned with any of the news outside of Westeros and asks why she should care. Qyburn also informs her about a puppet show that has become popular with smallfolk in the city.

...a puppet show wherein the kingdom of beasts was ruled by a pride of haughty lions. "The puppet lions grow greedy and arrogant as this treasonous tale proceeded, until they begin to devour their own subjects. When the noble stag makes objection, the lions devour him as well, and roar that it is their right as the mightiest of beasts."

At the end of the show, a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions. 

Cersei asks Qyburn to send spies to see if anybody notable attends the puppet shows. Men of substance who are found attending are to be fined half their worth. Those too poor to pay will lose an eye, and the puppeteers will be executed. Qyburn asks if he can bring a couple of the condemned to his dungeon. He says that a woman would be especially useful and when Cersei reminds him that she allowed him to have her maid Senelle, Qyburn admits that Senelle is too "exhausted" to be of anymore use. Cersei feels queasy and tries not to think about feeling guilty.

Cersei is having a bath when Jaime brings Tommen to come and see her. Tommen says that he wants to have his jousting lessons every day. Cersei says that he will be able to ride everyday once they get a master-at-arms to supervise his training. Tommen says that he wants Loras to train him and says that he commands it. Cersei threatens to send for Tommen's whipping boy and tells him that he doesn't command her. Cersei says that the rule is hers until he comes of age. She says that Loras is too busy being knight of the Kingsguard to supervise his training. She promises that Tommen will start training with a master-at-arms soon and says that he might be allowed to get a kitten if he stops bothering her about jousting.

When Jaime and Cersei are alone he asks her if she's drunk or stupid. He tells Cersei that she's not going to find a better jouster than Loras but Cersei tells Jaime that she'll ask for his counsel if she wants it. 

Cersei thinks about how men always obeyed her father and how different it is when she tries to command. Cersei convinces herself it's because she's a woman who can't fight them with a sword. She notes how they respected Robert even though Robert was a drunk. She's tired of Jaime balking her and decides that she needs to rid herself of him. She thinks about how she used to dream that they would rule the Seven Kingdoms together.

Cersei has dinner with the Stokeworths and asks Ser Balman to see if he can arrange for Bronn to have a hunting accident. Cersei explains that she thinks Bronn might still be in Tyrion's service and worries that Tyrion is plotting to kill Tommen. 

Cersei looks in on Tommen while he's sleeping and sees that he's been given three black kittens. The kittens make her think of Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys. She thinks about how Rhaenys might have been her daughter if the Mad King hadn't refused her. 

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods. When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. "Never speak of it, child" he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. "Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now." And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

Cersei was ten when she finally saw Rhaegar in person at a tourney her father threw in Lannisport. Cersei remembers that the crowd cheered for her father twice as loudly as they did for the king but only half as loudly as they cheered for Rhaegar. 

The day Cersei was presented to Rhaegar was the day she went into Maggy the Frog's tent. She thinks about how happy she was that day and convinced she was that she would be Rhaegar's wife. 

At the end of the tourney there was no betrothal and there was an obvious chill between Aerys and Tywin. Her aunt Genna later explained to her that Aerys had refused the match. According to Genna, Aerys told Tywin that he was his most able servant but that a man isn't supposed to marry his heir to his servant's daughter. Genna tried to reassure Cersei by saying that Tywin would find a better man than Rhaegar for her to marry. 

Cersei think about how her father gave her to Robert and how Maggy's prophecy has come true bit by bit. She thinks everything would have been better for everyone if Rhaegar had simply married her.

If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

Cersei never forgave Robert for killing Rhaegar. 

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It's funny when "political genius" Cersei is being schooled by her own eight(?) year old son. Sure, Margery may be behind prompting Tommen to assert himself, but if he doesn't learn how to rule now, he will lack any judgement when (say) a group of religious fanatics move into Kings Landing. Surely better that you let him sit on the throne and you advise him in the hope he'll listen to you in the future than trying to squash his ambitions. OK, maybe she plans on deposing her own son, but it does seem remarkably short sighted, even for Cersei.

As for trying to kill Bronn - wow, did she misjudge him. The guy is the most openly mercenary sellsword in town and it's not as if Tyrion is in any position to pay him. And if you do decide he has to be killed, hire somebody competent to do it!

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How does Cersei expect anyone to take Tommen seriously as a king if she doesn't? She's creating division within her own family when they already have a host of other enemies and problems to deal with. The way the laughter and smiles die when Cersei enters the picture during Tommen's training session with the Tyrells tells us everything that we need to know about the dynamic between Cersei and the Tyrells. Even when they're helping her son, cheering him on, giving him valuable advice, being friendly to him, making him laugh---it means nothing to her. No matter what they do they'll never be able to win this crazy woman over so how are they supposed to handle her?

The only positive bit between Cersei and Tommen here is that she recognizes that he's a kinder person than Joffrey was. The stuff with the kittens, she pushed it to the back over her mind but she never forgot. She saw proof of Joffrey's monstrous side and is at least glad that Tommen isn't going around the Red Keep looking for kittens to murder.

As for Cersei not recognizing that Loras Tyrell would be a great master-at-arms for her son, here she is again blocking attempts for her son to form lifelong friendships and powerful alliances. She's dojng everything she can to isolate him. She also seems to be uncomfortable with Loras's sexuality when she has the line that she doesn't think that Loras is the kind of man that any boy should want to emulate. I think it would have made sense if Jaime and Loras would both teach Tommen. That would give a balance for both families and he'd learn from two of the best fighters in Westeros. 

It isn't surprising that Cersei cares nothing about what's going on in the Free Cities and Essos but I continue to find it strange that she blows off all of the rumors about dragons without at least wanting to make a few more inquiries. It isn't like there isn't proof of dragons having once existed not too long ago. It isn't as if she doesn't know that there are one or two Targaryens left. It isn't as if she isn't aware that there are huge ass dragon skulls underneath the Red Keep. This is a woman who sees dangers in every shadow of every corner. I would think that the dragon rumors would just add to her overall paranoia especially since she's heard the rumors from more than one person. I find it very hard to believe that she wouldn't at least wonder if it could be true.

I do wonder what would have happened to Jaime if Cersei would have married Rhaegar. What would Tywin's plans have been for him? Would he have ended up with a Tyrell? A Hightower? Catelyn? If Cersei had given birth to three of Rhaegar's kids would he have looked at Lyanna? Would Lyanna still have turned Robert down?

Cersei doesn't consider even for a moment that people don't respect her because she's done nothing to earn their respect. She hasn't shown wisdom or strength or political acuity. She hasn't made useful allainces, she hasn't shown loyalty, and she routinely insults people whether they're servants, nobles or family members. 

One bit that I thought was interesting was Cersei remembering her father telling her that she'd marry Rhaegar but that for the time being it would have to be their secret. Cersei specifically remembers Tywin smiling. "The secret smile that only she ever saw." This idea that Tywin never smiled seems to be an exaggeration amd he could probably be warm with his family from time to time particularly when Joanna was alive. 

As for the picture that Cersei drew, it's funny that she drew Rhaegar and her on a dragon even though Rhaegar wasn't a dragon rider. Also notable here is that little girl Cersei was hiding stuff from Jaime. She hid this drawing, her hope to marry Rhaegar, her visit with Maggy the Frog, and whatever happened with Melara, etc. Jaime OTOH seems to have been an open book with his sister.

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10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I do wonder what would have happened to Jaime if Cersei would have married Rhaegar. What would Tywin's plans have been for him? Would he have ended up with a Tyrell? A Hightower? Catelyn? If Cersei had given birth to three of Rhaegar's kids would he have looked at Lyanna? Would Lyanna still have turned Robert down?

Cersei doesn't consider even for a moment that people don't respect her because she's done nothing to earn their respect. She hasn't shown wisdom or strength or political acuity. She hasn't made useful allainces, she hasn't shown loyalty, and she routinely insults people whether they're servants, nobles or family members. 

Jaime probably would have been betrothed to Lysa, as he almost was originally. I've said before that I think the Lannisters are wrong about Cersei easily replacing both Elia and Lyanna. If all Rhaegar wanted was another baby he could have used a number of women who weren't the daughter of a Great Lord and betrothed to his cousin, so it's likely he thought there was something special prophecy-wise about Lyanna, having a child of ice and fire. And Cersei was several years younger than Elia so she couldn't have popped out all 3 kids before he met Lyanna unless they got married when she was about 12. I also scoff at Cersei seeing Rhaegar's sad eyes and thinking she'd mend his hurt, as if she could suddenly develop an ability to sympathize with and comfort him that she's never shown any evidence of with anyone else.

It's true that Cersei has only done things to earn disrespect, but the other factor is that she's the king's mother, not the king. We've seen how kings are listened to and obeyed no matter what people may really think of them. Robert earned respect on the battlefield but was a falling-down drunk as king.

On 11/13/2018 at 9:13 PM, Avaleigh said:

When Cersei and Osmund reach the yard, they see Tommen practicing at jousting with Ser Loras. Margaery and her cousins all cheer Tommen on and he gets excited when he manages to break a lance. Loras tells him that he'll have to practice every day if he wants to be good. Cersei tells Tommen that he did very well and tells him that jousting is in his blood. She says that he'll rule all of the lists the way his father once did. Margaery asks Cersei which tourneys Robert won and says that she didn't realize that Robert had been an accomplished jouster. Cersei blushes when she realizes that she was thinking of Jaime when she spoke and not Robert. Cersei tells Margaery that Robert won the tourney of the Trident where he overthrew Prince Rhaegar. 

I've always loved this moment where Marg catches Cersei's slip and she comes up with a George Glass-level cover that could not be more unbelievable. The tourney of the Trident is an obvious take-off on the battle, and the kicker is the outrageous detail of Robert naming Cersei his QoLaB despite the fact that that would be more OOC than just him winning the joust, and that he could only have jousted against Rhaegar pre-Rebellion when his beloved Lyanna was still alive and he had no connection with Cersei. 

The thing about her scheme to murder Bronn is that she's actually kickstarting his rise to Lord of Stokeworth by dooming Falyse and her husband. And I'm not even sure she believes Tyrion is actually hiding out there because she's petty enough to try to kill Bronn just for naming a baby after Tyrion. The reaction to that news included joking about getting the boy a new stepfather.

Edited by Lady S.
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11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Jaime probably would have been betrothed to Lysa, as he almost was originally. I've said before that I think the Lannisters are wrong about Cersei easily replacing both Elia and Lyanna. If all Rhaegar wanted was another baby he could have used a number of women who weren't the daughter of a Great Lord and betrothed to his cousin, so it's likely he thought there was something special prophecy-wise about Lyanna, having a child of ice and fire. And Cersei was several years younger than Elia so she couldn't have popped out all 3 kids before he met Lyanna unless they got married when she was about 12. I also scoff at Cersei seeing Rhaegar's sad eyes and thinking she'd mend his hurt, as if she could suddenly develop an ability to sympathize with and comfort him that she's never shown any evidence of with anyone else.

I don't think Rhaegar thought about a union of ice and fire if we go by that vision at the HotU and what he told Elia about Aegon. I think he saw ice and fire as a war, fire fighting ice.

That said, Rhaegar knew Cersei for a while. Tywin brought her to King's Landing and I think she was there until Tywin resigned his position as Hand. So it's not like the guy had no clue who this girl was. He just didn't seem interested in her at all. So this whole idea that she has in her head (and Kevan in the epilogue of ADWD) that Rhaegar would not have looked twice at Lyanna if he had married Cersei or that by some miracle, Cersei would have been a different person are so false.

Cersei is a terrible person. She sees everything around her as an extension of herself, Jaime and her children. Joffrey was a monster who bullied everyone around him, so much so that Tommen tells Jaime that whenever Joffrey tormented him, he had to retrieve in some place deep inside him (who knows what Joffrey did to him) and she starts mistrusting Jaime the second he refuses to do what she wants him to do. 

Cersei is just Cersei. She's not someone who should have children or be in a relationship. Ever.

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21 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

That said, Rhaegar knew Cersei for a while. Tywin brought her to King's Landing and I think she was there until Tywin resigned his position as Hand. So it's not like the guy had no clue who this girl was. He just didn't seem interested in her at all. So this whole idea that she has in her head (and Kevan in the epilogue of ADWD) that Rhaegar would not have looked twice at Lyanna if he had married Cersei or that by some miracle, Cersei would have been a different person are so false.

Yeah, point is, if he wanted Cersei or anyone else single to have his child, he could have had her. The idea that he'd not just not run off with Lyanna but not even notice her if he was married to Cersei is pure Lannister vanity, because naturally Cersei was the most beautiful in all the land, when there's nothing to suggest Rhaegar valued beauty above else. I don't think Cersei would be down with his prophecy mission at all either. She didn't want Joff to even be outside during the Battle of the Blackwater and cares nothing about training Tommen for knighthood so no way she'd want all her babies to be heroes burdened with saving the world. My view of Jaime/Cersei has always been that her treatment of him is not a matter of just not being into him (she's plenty fixated on him) but of just not being capable of loving him as more than an extension of herself. I don't think her having fantasized about Rhaegar before she ever met him and drawing cute pictures means she could love him better than the man she already believes herself to love most or that he'd be some magical fix to her happiness and goodness.

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