Book 4: A Feast For Crows

[nodorothyparker]

Robert only qualifies in that he's already a king by conquest while Rhaegar was the crown prince of an increasingly unstable and paranoid king.  I suppose that technically qualifies as "better" but otherwise, yeah.

 

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of parenting this chapter has the line "No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he [Joffrey] took her nipple in his mouth to nurse." which reads as if she's comparing breastfeeding to sexual pleasure, and even if she just means the contentment of hanging out with Jaime, it still feels like a very, very weird way to express her love for her dead firstborn. If she'd thought of him being placed on her chest for the first time, sure, but actually sucking on the nipple? I only have no personal experience to go on but I've never heard that part of motherhood described as a fun sensation. GRRM just seems to have a weird thing for breastfeeding imo.

I mostly chalk this up to GRRM being a man, who like a lot of male writers has a thing about breasts and breastfeeding the way writing about both keeps popping up throughout.  Because no, not at all the same thing.  If true, that's pretty sad and it also contradicts something from I think later in this same book in her musing about Robert and the Kettleblacks and Aurane Waters where she comments that it's only ever been good for her with Jaime and now Jaime's gone away.

[Lady S.]

21 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I mostly chalk this up to GRRM being a man, who like a lot of male writers has a thing about breasts and breastfeeding the way writing about both keeps popping up throughout.  Because no, not at all the same thing.  If true, that's pretty sad and it also contradicts something from I think later in this same book in her musing about Robert and the Kettleblacks and Aurane Waters where she comments that it's only ever been good for her with Jaime and now Jaime's gone away.

It's definitely a man thing, I just don't think I've seen such a breastfeeding focus in any other book. I've noticed that the show also used breastfeeding as the definition of motherly love, (with Oberyn talking about Elia loving her children and Cersei talking about Myrcella before poisoning Bad Pussysnake) but that's nothing compared to this line. I guess it's not it's a contradiction if the intent is that no matter how much pleasure Jaime gave her it could never compare to their baby sucking on her nipple, which just makes the wording even weirder.

[glowbug]

I know this book is fantasy and not historical fiction but GRRM did base Westeros on medieval Europe and in medieval Europe aristocratic women did not breastfeed. They would have used a wet nurse, the primary reason being that they had a lot of responsibilities as Lord or Lady of an estate and needed to bounce back on their feet quickly. Breastfeeding is very consuming in terms of time and energy. Also, it's a very modern idea that breastfeeding = loving your child. This attitude arose as a backlash to the pressure to formula feed in the mid-20th century. It wasn't until then that there was a suitable alternative to breastfeeding (whether it be your own breast or someone else's) so it was purely a necessity.

[Avaleigh]

The Soiled Knight

Ser Arys Oakheart is heading to secretly meet up with Arianne Martell. He thinks about how a member of House Oakheart doesn't belong in Dorne and thinks about how the Dornish have long been thought of as enemies of the people in the Reach. The Dornish people are hostile towards Arys and he feels it necessary to refrain from wearing his white cloak whenever he leaves the grounds of Sunspear.

Arys thinks about how well Myrcella has taken to life in Dorne. She loves the food and is getting along well with Prince Trystane. They've been playing the game cyvasse a lot and Arys notes that Myrcella has been winning against Trystane more often than not. Arys hopes that Myrcella will be happier with Trystane than her mother was with Robert. 

Arys thinks back to a conversation he had with Doran and how Doran's intention is to return to the Water Gardens. He plans on bringing Myrcella with him along with the staff and guards of Myrcella's household. Doran thinks that Myrcella will like the Water Gardens and says that there will be highborn children there for her to play with. Arys wonders why Doran doesn't want him to write to King's Landing about this move.

Arianne is naked when Arys comes to see her and they immediately have sex. When they're finished, Arys feels ashamed and guilty about breaking the vows he made when he joined the Kingsguard. Arys gets up to leave and Arianne tries to tempt him into staying. Arys talks about how he doesn't want to be thought of as an oathbreaker if they're discovered and tells Arianne that he wants this to be their last time. She reminds him that he's said this sort of thing before. 

When Arys talks again about how he swore a vow, Arianne clarifies that he only swore a vow to not marry or father children. She points out that she's taking moon tea and will never be able to marry him anyway. She jokingly suggests that she could make him her paramour and asks him if he really thinks that he's the only member of the Kingsguard who ever loved a woman. Arys admits that other members of the Kingsguard have broken their vows but insists that he isn't going to be remembered as Ser Arys the Unworthy. 

Arianne says that if anything has soiled Arys's cloak it's the monstrous people he's had to serve over the years. Arys says that Robert wasn't a monster, but admits to himself that he feels ashamed when he thinks about how he hit Sansa on Joffrey's orders. When Tyrion chose him to go with Myrcella to Dorne, he lit a candle to the Warrior in thanks that he'd be leaving King's Landing. Arys says that Tommen isn't like Joffrey and Arianne points out that Tommen isn't like Myrcella either.

Quote

It was true. Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly. He was not only thinking of Myrcella, but of her mother and his own, of the Queen of Thorns, of the Red Viper's pretty, deadly Sand Snakes. And of Princese Arianne Martell, her most of all.

The discussion turns to whether or not Myrcella should rule Westeros. Arianne claims that Myrcella is being taken to the Water Gardens in order to keep her away from the people who are interested in making her queen. She goes on to say that Oberyn would have crowned Myrcella himself had he lived and warns that once Myrcella is brought to the Water Gardens that she won't be allowed to leave.

Arianne says that Myrcella loves Tommen and will make sure that he isn't harmed. She suggests that Tommen will be allowed to become Lord of Storm's End and Casterly Rock. Arianne also suggests that she and Arys will eventually be able to marry once the time is right on the grounds that Myrcella will want to see him be happy. 

Arianne confides that she fears her father will imprison her the way that he's imprisoned the Sand Snakes. She says that she has always been a disappointment to her father and worries that he prefers to have his son Quentyn succeed him rather than her. She tells Arys how she once saw a letter that Doran was writing to Quentyn where he tells Quentyn that Quentyn will rule Dorne one day. Arianne was heartbroken when she read Doran's letter but Arys wonders if it's possible that she misunderstood the content of the incomplete letter. 

Arianne says that she and Myrcella share a common cause and gets Arys to agree to defend them both. He acknowledges that Myrcella is older than Tommen and better suited to wear the crown. With Arianne, he promises that no man will steal her birthright as long as he is strong enough to hold a sword. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Avaleigh

[John Potts]

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 5:17 AM, Avaleigh said:

Arianne is naked when Arys comes to see her and they immediately have sex.

"Oh woe is me, I have some hot chick that keeps having sex with me. My life is terrible!" If the guilt is so terrible, then stop doing it? Or admit that your oath isn't that important to you. Talk about 7th Kingdom problems!

I do start to wonder if Doran's elaborate master plan was quite as brilliant as he thought. Or maybe he was just incredibly unlucky that the one bit of information Arianne gets hold of was the one that suggested he was disinheriting his daughter.

[Lady S.]

On 6/11/2018 at 10:48 AM, John Potts said:

I do start to wonder if Doran's elaborate master plan was quite as brilliant as he thought. Or maybe he was just incredibly unlucky that the one bit of information Arianne gets hold of was the one that suggested he was disinheriting his daughter.

Doran only looks like a mastermind because his brother and his son get themselves killed in very painful fashion and his daughter cooks up this hare-brained scheme, so our natural instinct is that they're due for a win and his having a plan must be a good sign. His execution of the Targ restoration/revenge plan is fucking terrible, though. He does nothing to aid Viserys or Dany overseas even though he has contacts in Essos and wouldn't have to support them openly yet. What would he have done if they both died? He doesn't even let Viserys know of the marriage plans. How valid is a betrothal when the other side has no idea about it? He was just waiting indefinitely for Viserys to invade so he could present him with a bride. Why is he still refusing to allow Arianne any leadership role and making no effort to groom her as his heir when Viserys's death should have been well known for a while? He won't do that or tell her anything yet he felt the need to tell Quent he would rule one day and try to prepare him for it years ago, while leaving the letter out and undermining all his over-cautiousness in everything else. Arianne is still stupid for not even considering just confronting him about it before trying to start a war. She ends up gently imprisoned like her cousins anyway, and I don't believe she really thought he'd do worse than that with how weak she thinks him.

 

 

On 6/9/2018 at 11:17 PM, Avaleigh said:

Arianne is naked when Arys comes to see her

I guess the ornate snake coiled around her arm was a piece of jewelry with literal gold and copper scales. The first time I read this I thought it was an actual snake and was then confused by it having no further mention in the rest of the chapter. The way Arys characterizes crazy, over-sexed Dornishwomen it wouldn't feel out of place for her to come out naked with a real snake.

I hate this chapter, the fact that Arys is a PoV and this whole stupid subplot but I'll give Arianne credit for saying Arys should be more ashamed of the kings he's served than having sex. This story is reason enough for the Kingsguard not to be celibate with a 10-year lack of sex for no good reason making Arys easy prey for to be manipulated into a hare-brained scheme by his lover, which ends up getting him needlessly killed while failing to protect his charge.

[glowbug]

I think GRRM wants us to think Doran is a careful planner and a great strategic mind so when his plan is revealed it’s written in such a way that it presents him as brilliant, but if you breakdown his plan and really think it through it falls apart. It’s sort of like how the timeline of Robert’s rebellion and the player’s actions don’t make sense when they’re really thought through (e.g. I don’t think Rhaegar and Lyanna are supposed to come across as selfish/horrible as they do to many people). I will give GRRM credit for keeping Doran’s true thoughts and intentions well hidden. I didn’t see it coming, which I think also makes it seem like a more impressive plan than it actually is. Dorne was one of the weaker plots in the book, but compared to the show it’s brilliant. 

[John Potts]

6 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think GRRM wants us to think Doran is a careful planner and a great strategic mind so when his plan is revealed it’s written in such a way that it presents him as brilliant, but if you breakdown his plan and really think it through it falls apart.

Yeah, I have to admit that the reveal later in the book when he goes (Spoiler for later this book, I guess), "Fire and Blood!" was one of the few moments that really surprised me, but as a master planner, he perhaps keeps his cards a little too close to his chest as his pieces (Quentyn, Danny, Arianne, Dorkstar) don't seem to be in line with what Doran is trying to achieve. If you go by what GRRM has stated (OK, I will spoiler this one):

Spoiler

that there will be multiple characters sitting on the Iron Throne before the end, then presumably (F)Aegon will succeed, however briefly and just what is his plan for when Danny tells him that she's the rightful heir? Maybe he plans a marriage alliance, but that depends on Danny still being single at that point (although I suppose it's conceivable if unlikely that Danny could have two husbands simultaneously - she is a Targaryen, after all).

[nodorothyparker]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Doran only looks like a mastermind because his brother and his son get themselves killed in very painful fashion and his daughter cooks up this hare-brained scheme, so our natural instinct is that they're due for a win and his having a plan must be a good sign. His execution of the Targ restoration/revenge plan is fucking terrible, though. He does nothing to aid Viserys or Dany overseas even though he has contacts in Essos and wouldn't have to support them openly yet. What would he have done if they both died? He doesn't even let Viserys know of the marriage plans. How valid is a betrothal when the other side has no idea about it? He was just waiting indefinitely for Viserys to invade so he could present him with a bride.

While I admittedly struggle to care very much about new POVs introduced this late into the story, this is my take too.  The first time I read the whole Dorne thing my immediate thoughts were 1) For all their fiery reputation, the Dornish have some the slowest and most haphazard ideas of payback imaginable and 2) Wow,  this actually manages to make me feel a little bad for batshit abusive Viserys that while he was dragging around the east being laughed at as the beggar king, the Dornish could have helped him.  You know, if they weren't just sitting back waiting for him to not die and figure out an invasion massive enough to win a throne back all by his lonesome.  I know we touched on all this with the introduction of Oberyn in the previous book with his whole I'm here to exact some revenge right NOW after wasting a good decade and a half doing everything else but that until our house conveniently got invited to this wedding.

All that said, I love the queenmaker plot in theory and kind of wish we could have seen it come to fruition, if for no other reason than to see an increasingly unstable Cersei torn between her children's claims and her own well nursed grievances about female heredity.  I find Arys a mostly nothing of a character, but I find his beginning observation interesting that the female Lannisters are the strong ones, given what we've seen of the family.

[YaddaYadda]

Going back to the Captain of the Guards chapter, Doran tells either Tyene or Nym, I don't remember which one, that he told Oberyn to observe and see if he can find them friends in King's Landing, but Oberyn takes things too far. That for me indicates that Doran and Oberyn may have had it on good authority that Dany had dragons and that it was early enough in the story that Oberyn is commanded to search for allies. Oberyn zeroes in on Tyrion who would be the heir to Casterly Rock and Sansa who is technically the last remaining Stark by the time Oberyn arrives in King's Landing. He even suggests to Tyrion that he goes to Dorne and bring Sansa (after she has disappeared) with him. 

Anyway, as far as Doran's plotting goes, I think he is way out of his depth. Oberyn died. He should have known something like that would happen, Oberyn made no secrets about what he wanted. He lent Dany and Viserys no support as far as we know. And we don't know what Jon Arryn told him that made Oberyn stop trying to rally Dorne to Viserys's cause after Robert's Rebellion. 

There's a lot that makes me question what in the world Doran is doing, especially after the Myrcella plot goes south. He sends the heirs of some of the houses away, he has Spotted Sylva married off and sent to Estermont. Quentyn isn't the only who dies, Cletus Yronwood dies as well and his death, imo, is going to be a huge deal.

I wouldn't be surprised if all this "careful" planning leads to a civil war in Dorne. 

Doran has been waiting for others to do his job for him. I don't even know if he really wants to avenge what happened to Elia or if he's just going with the flow on this one. 

[Lady S.]

On 6/13/2018 at 10:24 AM, YaddaYadda said:

And we don't know what Jon Arryn told him that made Oberyn stop trying to rally Dorne to Viserys's cause after Robert's Rebellion. 

Oh, I think that was just down to Dorne not having enough men to take on the Baratheon-Lannisters on their own, especially with Robert still having his rebel allies at his back and the Dornish still recovering from being Rhaegar's main support on the Trident. It'd be the weakest kingdom fighting for an exiled child against a popular warrior king with the support of 5 regions more powerful than Dorne (6 regions maybe, with the Tyrells always jumping to the winning side). Dorne is unbeaten in defensive fighting but they'd probably have to go beyond their own borders to overthrow a sitting king and topple the new dynasty. Doran knew this and probably just needed time for Oberyn to cool off a little to persuade him to wait. Jon Arryn may have felt he had to go there to deal with Oberyn, and Tywin probably thought doing this was a big gesture instead of an unavoidable attempt at damage control for a mess he created, but the way Oberyn tells it Arryn was still refusing to be honest about the murders while basically rewarding Tywin for them. There's nothing he could have offered that wouldn't be less appealing than Doran's half-assed, delayed revenge plans. But obviously waiting indefinitely for Viserys to grow up, get his own army and possibly other allies, then invade without the slightest Dornish aid in exile was way, way too far in the other direction. IA that they must have heard about Dany's dragons before Oberyn left as Quentyn's trip had to have been planned before Oberyn's death, but those Essosi connections make it even worse that they were only used for information-gathering for Doran, not to aid the Targs or even give them a simple message.

 

On 6/13/2018 at 6:42 AM, nodorothyparker said:

All that said, I love the queenmaker plot in theory and kind of wish we could have seen it come to fruition, if for no other reason than to see an increasingly unstable Cersei torn between her children's claims and her own well nursed grievances about female heredity.  I find Arys a mostly nothing of a character, but I find his beginning observation interesting that the female Lannisters are the strong ones, given what we've seen of the family.

That's the most frustrating thing about this, that these plots could be interesting if they were even halfway successful. Oberyn came the closest to actually accomplishing something before he refused to finish the job, then his inferior relatives managed to do even worse than the cocky guy who got his head smashed in. Arianne's scheme was clearly never going to get far, and with Quentyn's death losing them any chance at allying with Dany, and the probable union of Ari with the doomed Aegon instead, then the only Martells with a shot of coming out of this clean are Trystane, Sarella, and the youngest Sand Snakes. We barely know them and have no reason to be invested in them. It'd be like if all the Starks except Rickon died and he somehow reclaimed Winterfell. I don't give much of a shit about him, and Ned, Cat, and Robb's deaths are only acceptable because we still had the other 4 Stark PoVs and it was always really their story. At least Ned's death was a successful protagonist fake-out and at least Robb was winning for a good amount of time before GRRM really stacked the deck against him. Here, Doran is the only one of these characters even mentioned before this book, and we're expected to get invested in the less than genius schemes of all these new people and presumably, also expected not to feel cheated when this already victimized family is further hit and the only survivors are those we know the least.  

[John Potts]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Oberyn came the closest to actually accomplishing something before he refused to finish the job, then his inferior relatives managed to do even worse than the cocky guy who got his head smashed in.

Oberyn didn't so much fail as succumb to hubris. He did succeed in killing the Mountain (kinda), he just wanted the complete victory and get the confession, too. Which... didn't go so well for Oberyn.

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

That's the most frustrating thing about this, that these plots could be interesting if they were even halfway successful. Oberyn came the closest to actually accomplishing something before he refused to finish the job, then his inferior relatives managed to do even worse than the cocky guy who got his head smashed in. Arianne's scheme was clearly never going to get far, and with Quentyn's death losing them any chance at allying with Dany, and the probable union of Ari with the doomed Aegon instead, then the only Martells with a shot of coming out of this clean are Trystane, Sarella, and the youngest Sand Snakes. We barely know them and have no reason to be invested in them. It'd be like if all the Starks except Rickon died and he somehow reclaimed Winterfell. I don't give much of a shit about him, and Ned, Cat, and Robb's deaths are only acceptable because we still had the other 4 Stark PoVs and it was always really their story. At least Ned's death was a successful protagonist fake-out and at least Robb was winning for a good amount of time before GRRM really stacked the deck against him. Here, Doran is the only one of these characters even mentioned before this book, and we're expected to get invested in the less than genius schemes of all these new people and presumably, also expected not to feel cheated when this already victimized family is further hit and the only survivors are those we know the least.  

Dorne will not be the same by the time this is all said and done. I think the bad blood that exists between Martell and Yronwood is going to be exacerbated. That's not to mention how little respect the Sand Snakes and Arianne seem to have for Doran. I imagine that this could be a reflection of how most of Dorne feels about him. 

We are told repeatedly that Doran doesn't play unless he thinks he can win. Has he ever played the game? Even his marriage was not a political one and he couldn't even keep his wife at that and it doesn't seem like he ever tried to force Oberyn to marry. I can't express how much I want Gerold Dayne to fuck up Doran's plans in Dorne and kill both Obara and Hotah.

Interestingly enough, House Dayne is the only other House that can trace its roots back to Nymeria. 

[Avaleigh]

Brienne III 

Brienne and Podrick are riding past the area where Brienne and Jaime were captured by the Brave Companions. Brienne warns Podrick that the outlaws might still be nearby, but the boy doesn't seem to be afraid of fighting them if he has to.

Brienne learns Pod's backstory on the road from Duskendale. He's from a lesser branch of House Payne and his father spent most of his life serving as a squire for rich cousins. His father died during the Greyjoy Rebellion and his mother left him with his cousin Ser Cedric Payne when he was four. Pod's mother got pregnant by a "wandering singer" and decided to leave her kid so that she could run after him. Pod doesn't remember what she looked like. 

Ser Cedric seems to have treated Pod more like a servant than like family and he brought Podrick along when Casterly Rock called up its banners. Pod tended to Cedric's horse and cleaned his mail until Cedric was killed in the fighting in the riverlands. After Cedric's death, Pod attached himself to a hedge knight who was in charge of protecting the baggage train. One day the knight was caught with a ham that he'd stolen from Tywin's personal stores, so Tywin decided to hang the knight as a lesson to any other potential looters. The only reason Pod's life was spared after this incident was because of his last name. Kevan Lannister took charge of Pod and eventually sent him to squire for Tyrion. 

Tyrion made sure that Pod received some training with Ser Aron Santagar the Red Keep's master-at-arms, but when Santagar was killed during the riots of King's Landing, that was the end of Pod's training.

Brienne agrees to train Pod and is pleased to see how fearless and attentive he is. He also does a good job of taking care of their horses, but Brienne doesn't quite think that Pod is good enough yet to call himself a squire.

They run into some farm folk on the road and hear news about Randyll Tarly cleaning up Maidenpool. Randyll has killed the worst of the outlaws and is helping to rebuild Maidenpool. Brienne knows Randyll from her time with Renly's host. She doesn't like him but acknowledges to herself that she owes him a debt. She hopes that they'll be able to pass through Maidenpool before he knows she's there.

Brienne learns that Randyll's son Dickon is going to be wed to the daughter of Lord Mooton. Brienne remembers that Dickon is somewhere between eight and ten years old and this makes her think about how she was betrothed at the age of seven to a son of Lord Caron. Brienne thinks about how different her life would have been if her betrothed hadn't died and they'd ended up getting married. 

When they get to the gates of Maidenpool, the guards harass the farm couple and try to steal the eggs that they brought to sell. They also try to take the farmer's wife and this makes Brienne draw her sword on the men. The guards spread out to surround her, but Brienne is spared from fighting by the arrival of Ser Hyle Hunt. 

Seeing Hyle makes Brienne feel like she's been punched in the stomach and when Hyle asks her if she plans on thanking him for his assistance, she responds that she'll thank him one day in a mêlée.

Hyle brings Brienne to see Lord Randyll who is delivering justice to various people. One man has seven of his fingers cut off for stealing from a sept, a baker is fined and lashed for mixing sawdust in his flour, a woman is thrown into a dungeon after her private parts are washed out with lye, and a sailor loses a finger for using weighted dice. 

Randyll asks Brienne what she's doing there and when she hesitates to say who she's looking for, he asks her if she killed Renly. Brienne tells him that she didn't kill Renly and while Randyll seems to accept that she's telling the truth, he still accuses her of letting Renly die. He says that she should never have been allowed to leave her father's hall and tells her that he ought to ship her back to Tarth. 

Brienne has Podrick give over the letter that proves she's on business for the king. Brienne admits that she's looking for Sansa and Randyll says that Sansa isn't in the riverlands. He guesses that Sansa has gone north to find refuge with one of her father's bannermen. When Brienne says it's also possible that Sansa went to the Vale, Randyll informs her that Lysa is dead. He says that Littlefinger holds the Eyrie now, but suggests that the lords of the Vale aren't going to be inclined to bend the knee to a man like Littlefinger. 

Randyll tells Brienne to go wherever she wants but warns her not to run to him for justice if she ends up being raped. 

Hyle Hunt offers to show Brienne the way to the Stinking Goose, but she rejects his offer and tells him to go back to guarding the gate. Hyle makes reference to the past and tells Brienne that he and the other guys were only playing a game with her. He tells her that they didn't mean any harm. He informs her that Ben, Farrow, and Will all died during the Battle of the Blackwater and that Mark Mullendore lost half of his arm. Brienne wants to say that this is good and deserved but she keeps her thoughts to herself and walks away from Hyle.

Pod asks Brienne what Hyle did to her and she says that Hyle and some other men played a game with her that was cruel, hurtful and unchivalrous. 

It takes Brienne an hour to find the Stinking Goose and once she's inside she waits so that she can speak with Nimble Dick. As she waits, she thinks back to the time they all laughed at her at Highgarden. 

She remembers riding across the Reach to join Renly and how Renly welcomed her into his service. While Renly welcomes her warmly, the lords and ladies of the Reach are cold and hostile. Brienne was used to this sort of scornful treatment. What made her feeling confused and vulnerable were the men at Highgarden who tried to court her. 

Big Ben Bushy was the first, one of the few men in Renly's camp who overtopped her. He sent his squire to clean her mail, and made her a gift of a silver drinking horn. Ser Edmund Ambrose went him one better, bringing flowers and asking her to ride with him. Ser Hyle Hunt outdid them both. He gave her a book, beautifully illuminated and filled with a hundred tales of knightly valor. He brought apples and carrots for her horses, and a blue silk plume for her helmet. He told her the gossip of the camp and said clever, cutting things that made her smile. He even trained with her one day, which meant more than all the rest.

Brienne suspects it was because of Hyle that other men started to be extra courteous with her. Men fought to have a place beside her at table. They filled her wine cup and offered her sweetmeats. Ser Richard Farrow serenaded her with love songs and Ser Hugh Beesbury brought her a pot of honey "as sweet as the maids of Tarth". Ser Mark Mullendore made her laugh and Will the Stork offered to massage her shoulders. 

Brienne refused all of the guys who tried to touch her or kiss her and wondered what it was they saw in her since every girl at Highgarden was better looking. Randyll Tarly solves the mystery for her and tells her that the men all made a wager on who would be able to have sex with her first. Each man who was participating in the contest had to buy in with a golden dragon. The golden dragons would go to the winner of the challenge. Once the stakes got large, Randyll put an end to the contest because he knew it was only a matter of time before one of the men raped Brienne in order to claim the gold. 

Brienne is shocked when she learns that the men bet on her and tells Randyll that the men are all anointed knights. Randyll agrees with her and says that they're all honorable men. He tells her that she is to blame for the entire situation. Brienne says that she did nothing to encourage the men but Randyll argues that her simply being there was encouragement enough. 

"Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you."

When Brienne tells Randyll that she came to fight and to be a knight, he says that the gods made men for fighting and women for having children. He tells her that a "women's war is in the birthing bed."

Nimble Dick finally arrives at the Stinking Goose and Brienne offers to by him a drink. She bribes him to tell her what he knows and he gives her a story about a frightened fool who had two girls with him. Brienne wonders if the other girl could be Arya. 

Nimble Dick agrees to take Brienne to Crackclaw Point where he claims the frightened fool went with the two girls. He says they're in a place called the Whispers. Brienne warns him that he won't get any gold if they don't find anything.

[John Potts]

And Randyll Tarly proves he's every bit the vile individual that Sam described him as. Yes, Brienne is provoking the men by - entirely encasing herself in iron? The hussy!

Evidently Pod is a lot more use as a squire in the Books, as on the show he admits he just brought Tyrion wine. Here, at least he's had some training and is good with horses (Show!Pod didn't even manage to hobble the horses right).

But otherwise, this is just another long shaggy dog story that goes nowhere.

[Avaleigh]

On 6/13/2018 at 4:42 AM, nodorothyparker said:

All that said, I love the queenmaker plot in theory and kind of wish we could have seen it come to fruition, if for no other reason than to see an increasingly unstable Cersei torn between her children's claims and her own well nursed grievances about female heredity.  I find Arys a mostly nothing of a character, but I find his beginning observation interesting that the female Lannisters are the strong ones, given what we've seen of the family.

Yes, I feel like the plot to crown Myrcella was a missed opportunity both in the show and the books. Rather than getting the plot that we did with Ellaria and the annoying Sand Snakes, if they'd focused it on them attempting to crown Myrcella and Jaime and Cersei both being torn about which child to support, that would have made for an interesting and rewarding story. It also would have been intriguing to see how Myrcella and Tommen would have responded considering that neither one was particularly ambitious and they had a healthy sibling relationship so it wasn't like either would be especially anxious to take down the other. There's a lot of complexity that could have been explored with a lot like this.

On 6/12/2018 at 8:56 PM, Lady S. said:

Doran only looks like a mastermind because his brother and his son get themselves killed in very painful fashion and his daughter cooks up this hare-brained scheme, so our natural instinct is that they're due for a win and his having a plan must be a good sign. His execution of the Targ restoration/revenge plan is fucking terrible, though. He does nothing to aid Viserys or Dany overseas even though he has contacts in Essos and wouldn't have to support them openly yet. What would he have done if they both died? He doesn't even let Viserys know of the marriage plans. How valid is a betrothal when the other side has no idea about it? He was just waiting indefinitely for Viserys to invade so he could present him with a bride. Why is he still refusing to allow Arianne any leadership role and making no effort to groom her as his heir when Viserys's death should have been well known for a while? He won't do that or tell her anything yet he felt the need to tell Quent he would rule one day and try to prepare him for it years ago, while leaving the letter out and undermining all his over-cautiousness in everything else. Arianne is still stupid for not even considering just confronting him about it before trying to start a war. She ends up gently imprisoned like her cousins anyway, and I don't believe she really thought he'd do worse than that with how weak she thinks him.

This is one of the things that bothers me so much about Doran's stupid plan. It makes no sense to me why he wouldn't have made some sort of gesture to Viserys over the years. Shy didn't he send anyone to protect/counsel Viserys and Dany over the years? Even the Sand Snakes might have come in handy here. He makes no effort and is then surprised when his plan goes to shit. Lack of communication is a huge reason for why everything went wrong for his family. Even Oberyn might have been willing to travel east to see what the deal was with his sister's in laws and whether they'd be useful tools in helping him seek revenge. Doran just foolishly assumed that things would work out and that the exiles would eventually make their way back to Westeros. 

YaddaYadda, I agree with your thoughts about civil war in Dorne being a real possibility after the disaster of Quentyn's mission. Arianne might be able to set things right but I agree that the death of Yronwood could be the spark to set things off. This chapter and others make it pretty clear that the Dornish are looking for a reason to fight and that they aren't happy with the current leadership. Even with Doran out of the picture, Arianne is looking at a rocky road. I wonder what will happen to Tyrstane in the books. I definitely can't see him going out in a scenario that's even remotely close to what the show gave us. 

Regarding the Brienne chapter---

This book is such a come down from the other books and I've felt it in the past two chapters. There are a few interesting info drops but we're basically on a road to nowhere. 

Randyll Tarly is such a sick. He reminds me of Stannis in a way. He isn't all bad but he's so sexist and rigid. The way he blames Brienne for supposedly making these men behave dishonorably was horrible. That's some crap that Tywin would have said. Not only does he not blame the men for their cruel game but he wouldn't have blamed any of the men for deciding to rape her. In his world it would have served her right. He claims that she's behaving like a camp follower but how many camp followers are actively protecting the king with a sword? How many camp followers are training constantly and doing the things that knights do? 

In some ways Randyll Tarly seems like a practical man. He puts his men to work to rebuild the town so that they aren't idle. He rides the riverlands of as many outlaws as he can find. He doesn't tolerate rape or theft and punished the offenders. OTOH he doesn't see that it's practical for their side to have an accomplished swordsman like Brienne working for them. He thinks it would be better for her to go back to Tarth, find a husband, and pop out a few kids. Her level of skill doesn't seem to factor into the equation at all for him. He makes a comment about how "this is war, not a harvest ball" without considering that Brienne would be more out of place at a ball than on a battlefield. 

Pod's backstory is sad. The book makes it sound like sound like she didn't even leave with the singer. She just chased after him and left her kid to be with cousins who would treat him like a poor relation. I wonder what became of her and her baby. Pod being saved by his name reminds me of Henry Tudor in The White Queen being saved by shouting his name. 

I don't see the point of Brienne following Nimble Dick. 1) How on earth can she entertain for even a moment that this "frightened fool" just happens to have *both* girls? 2) She thinks they're still just waiting there for a ship that's never going to come? 3) If somehow they did catch a ship, they'd be long gone. 4) Just because Lysa is dead doesn't mean that Sansa might not have sought her out. Brienne just found out. Who is to say that Sansa didn't travel to the Eyrie thinking that her aunt was still alive? She could still be in that general area either traveling towards or coming from. 6) Randyll Tarly suggests that Sansa went north. Isn't going north more sensible than following some insincere dude who seems like he's willing to say anything for money?

Brienne's whole mission feels like an exercise in futility even if I didn't already know the whereabouts of the Stark sisters. A person would be hard pressed to find a hidden person in a single city let alone an entire continent. 

As for the treatment of Brienne at Highgarden, that was sad to read about. I guess it's something though that Hyle feels guilty about the incident and tries to (sort of) be nice. True, he didn't apologize and admit that they acted like heartless assholes, but he seemed to want to explain himself and tried to show her the way to the inn. He also helped her when she was dealing with those guards at the gate who had rape on their minds. I wonder if Brienne still has the book that Hyle gave her?

[YaddaYadda]

Randyll Tarly is very reminiscent of Stannis in the way he conducts justice. But the man is just really, really cold. Between what he did to Sam and thinking that Brienne was at fault for the game those men played with her, he is mean. Yes, being harassed it totally her fault. Randyll Tarly is a misogynist, a sexist and a whole lot of other things. 

I have to say that Ser Hyle was is a minor character that I have personally enjoyed. But what he and the others did to Brienne was vile. It was such a mean girls moment reading Brienne remembering what they did. 

So one of the things that I did find interesting is that dropped line in there by the farmer about Myles Mooton and his character which seems to be at the opposite of his brother's. Myles Mooton is described as being bold as brass and wouldn't have hidden behind the castle walls when the town was being sacked. It does give a good idea of the people that Rhaegar surrounded himself with and why he would have kept Myles around even after he had knighted him.

About Dorne. I think there's a whole lot that can be written about Dorne. This can go on for pages and pages. For one, when Doran sent Oberyn to King's Landing, knowing that Tywin would be there. One of the first things Oberyn tells Tyrion is that he wants justice for his sister. Doran knows this very well. Is that guy living on hope that his hot-tempered brother will just let it go for the sake of whatever their plans are? It becomes clear in AFFC that Doran is preparing as far back as ASOS for the arrival of Dany in Westeros with her dragons. They already have confirmation of the dragons before Oberyn arrives in King's Landing and we have confirmation in The Soiled Knight that Quentyn is gone from Dorne and is across the narrow sea. Doran botched the whole thing.

I think House Yronwood had been planning to rise against Doran since Ynys was married off rather quickly to Ryon Allyrion. The situation in Dorne and in the Vale seem to be very similar politically right now. 

I think one of the things that sucks with AFFC is that it has been split from ADWD, so we have to figure out the timeline and reconcile both books together for the much bigger picture.

[Lady S.]

15 hours ago, John Potts said:

Yes, Brienne is provoking the men by - entirely encasing herself in iron? The hussy!

This isn't too far off from some things said in modern times when it comes to sexual assault scandals in the military, and arguments against female soldiers on the frontlines because the presence of a woman would be too distracting to the men during combat.

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Just because Lysa is dead doesn't mean that Sansa might not have sought her out. Brienne just found out. Who is to say that Sansa didn't travel to the Eyrie thinking that her aunt was still alive? She could still be in that general area either traveling towards or coming from. 6) Randyll Tarly suggests that Sansa went north. Isn't going north more sensible than following some insincere dude who seems like he's willing to say anything for money?

Brienne's whole mission feels like an exercise in futility even if I didn't already know the whereabouts of the Stark sisters. A person would be hard pressed to find a hidden person in a single city let alone an entire continent. 

Yeah, I'm less annoyed that her search is a wild goose chase than by her reasoning for pursuing this lead above the Vale and the North. 

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

As for the treatment of Brienne at Highgarden, that was sad to read about. I guess it's something though that Hyle feels guilty about the incident and tries to (sort of) be nice. True, he didn't apologize and admit that they acted like heartless assholes, but he seemed to want to explain himself and tried to show her the way to the inn. He also helped her when she was dealing with those guards at the gate who had rape on their minds. I wonder if Brienne still has the book that Hyle gave her?

I'm sure he feels bad about how things turned out but in addition to not apologizing, he's still insisting it was all a joke and casually rubbing in how ugly she is. Telling which of the silly pranksters died/were injured at the Blackwater comes off as him shutting down criticism by trying to make her feel petty for holding a grudge against dead men. He respects her as a warrior which does mean something, but he doesn't respect her as a woman. Whatever she did with her gifts after the bet they would have been lost anyway after Renly's death when Cat made her flee without packing. Tbh Hyle just feels like the poor man's Jaime to me, the quippy asshole who secretly likes Brienne but is embarrassed by her looks so he has to be an immature dick about it. In comparison, when Jaime said hurtful things to Brienne, it was usually in response to something she said, and it felt more like a result of a short fuse. Even early on, he had a moment where he felt bad for wounding her and was reminded of Tyrion. His progression is shown later in this book with the goldensmack of her douchiest suitor. Making a large-scale wager about deflowering her feels a lot more deliberate and Hyle's progression is that now he's limiting his dickishness to insulting her, which was Jaime's starting point.

The backstory at Highgarden also feels relevant to today's world and recent scandals about sexual harassment and assault. There's a perception that not only are women deemed beautiful/sexy/slutty natural targets for men who are simply ruled by their dicks but that the reverse is true and this means women deemed plain/ugly who dress conservatively are safe because no one really wants to fuck them. When really it's a risk for all women because the problem is about more than just sexual attraction, and an unattractive woman is vulnerable in a different way, probably in part because there's an expectation you should be grateful for any attention at all.

Randyll's approach to ruling and justice does remind me of Stannis with both having a strong sense of order and being interested in the punitive side of justice more than anything else. Varys's quote about the terror of a truly just man could apply to both of them. The difference is I think Stannis cares about his duty to others, his people, the realm, whereas Randyll is probably driven more by a sense of imposing order and rules on others. Based on his attitude toward Asha, I do think Stannis is made uncomfortable by female fighters but he'd never tell one she deserved to be raped and that she couldn't come to him for justice. And while I do believe he'll murder his daughter, threatening to kill your son because you just don't like him and saying nothing would please you more feels a lot different than falsely believing that sacrificing your child must be done to save the world and feeling bad about it.

[nodorothyparker]

While I like getting to know one of the few truly nonasshole or self-interested characters of the entire series better in Brienne, yeah, there's a settling feeling of a narrative that's going nowhere in reading these chapters beyond the fact that we already know where both Stark girls are and how futile Brienne's search is almost certain to be.  The decision to follow a stray bit of hearsay from a sketchy character like Nimble Dick is annoying, but at the same time I have a hard time really faulting a lone woman with a kid in tow grabbing at a thread that's closer just to check it out before making the considerable effort to trek to the Eyrie or in the general direction of the North.  She did plan to head to the Eyrie before that sidetrack and hearing that Lysa was already dead.  

The farm couple and the talk about Mooton is our periodic reminder that it sucks to be smallfolk in this world and that for them it doesn't matter which lord started it or who did what to who as the Lannister and Stark forces have both caused their share of suffering and left them vulnerable to sellswords or whoever shows up to run things.   And of course between Randyll Tarly's first on page appearance and the backstory with Hyle Hunt we also get our reminder that most of the men in this series are indeed terrible.  There's something wonderfully ghastly about Tarly's assembly line justice with the row of waiting nooses hanging up behind him that suggests he sees imposing rule and order as his justification for being so harsh where I would argue Stannis likes order for order's own sake, in that that's how the world makes sense to him and he's willing to do his duty and be harsh to achieve that.

I do love that nobody seems all that concerned about how Renly actually died.  They feel compelled to ask since Brienne's right there but they'll accept pretty much any old answer since hey, kings and come and go and they've got bigger things to worry about now.

The story of the wager at Highgarden always breaks my heart a little for Brienne.  The mocking is bad enough before you even to get to the part where she's blamed for encouraging it just by being there wanting to do something she believes is for good.  In Cat's pity-filled ruminations on her she always notes how Brienne holds herself apart from whatever's going on.  Well, now you know why.  No wonder she has such terrible trust issues even when Jaime is being sincere with her.  

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Tbh Hyle just feels like the poor man's Jaime to me, the quippy asshole who secretly likes Brienne but is embarrassed by her looks so he has to be an immature dick about it. In comparison, when Jaime said hurtful things to Brienne, it was usually in response to something she said, and it felt more like a result of a short fuse. Even early on, he had a moment where he felt bad for wounding her and was reminded of Tyrion. His progression is shown later in this book with the goldensmack of her douchiest suitor. Making a large-scale wager about deflowering her feels a lot more deliberate and Hyle's progression is that now he's limiting his dickishness to insulting her, which was Jaime's starting point.

I love this entire observation.  Hyle doesn't even have the excuse of coming off a long imprisonment away from people or seeing her as an impediment to finally being free.  He was just an asshole who thought it would be fun to wager on the virginity of a girl who had the audacity of wanting to fight with them for a common cause.  Even now, he greets her by calling her ugly some more and hey, no hard feelings about that awful thing we did to you since a lot of those guys are dead now, right?  Geez, can't you take a joke.

[John Potts]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

This isn't too far off from some things said in modern times when it comes to sexual assault scandals in the military, and arguments against female soldiers on the frontlines because the presence of a woman would be too distracting to the men during combat.

Oh, I have no trouble believing he'd act that way (as you say, you get men saying similar things even in these more enlightened times). I guess we should be thankful that he is at least punishing rapists, though I'm sure he probably thought half the women "had it coming" for not being pregnant, barefoot and in the kitchen.

The "assembly line justice" doesn't bother me that much, because until a century or so ago that was about as good as it got for most people, with the death penalty for a whole range of offences.

[benteen]

I have to admit, although he's a Jaime stand-in, I like Ser Hyle.

Randyll really is awful.  As I recall, Mooton fell when he attacked Robb's forces from one side and the Mountain attacked them from another.  Imagine being caught between those two?

Randyll is definitely a lot like Stannis although whatever sexism Stannis has is probably par for the course in Westeros where I think Randyll takes it to extremes.  As a father, Randyll is the Great Santini on steroids (George was friends with the author of that book and makes me wonder if he didn't base Randyll as a father partially on that author's father).

Quote

Brienne learns that Randyll's son Dickon is going to be wed to the daughter of Lord Mooton. Brienne remembers that Dickon is somewhere between eight and ten years old and this makes her think about how she was betrothed at the age of seven to a son of Lord Caron. Brienne thinks about how different her life would have been if her betrothed hadn't died and they'd ended up getting married. 

You know, I always thought that Randyll could have held out for a more powerful match for his son rather than what appears to be a middle-of-the-road choice.  I believe its noted later on that Dickon does marry Lord Mooton's daughter.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

You know, I always thought that Randyll could have held out for a more powerful match for his son rather than what appears to be a middle-of-the-road choice.  I believe its noted later on that Dickon does marry Lord Mooton's daughter.

I would have thought so too, but when you start looking around at girls that are in Dickon's age range, there aren't a whole lot of them. The Tyrells have no daughters. Desmera Redwyne is too old for him and Sam would have been the one to marry her had he not been the way he is. 

Randyll Tarly lost out on Brightwater Keep when it was given to Garlan Tyrell, so who knows what he was thinking when that happened. The castle should have passed to his wife. 

Maidenpool is not a terrible prize. It's the port of entry into the riverlands. I think that makes the town a really good option for him in terms of marriage. There's got to be a lot of income made from the harbor and the ships that sail into it.

[Lady S.]

19 hours ago, benteen said:

As I recall, Mooton fell when he attacked Robb's forces from one side and the Mountain attacked them from another.  Imagine being caught between those two?

Mooton is a Tully bannerman, he was never Robb's enemy. I think you may be jumbling this up with the Duskendale battle where Randyll commanded the forces and the Mountain led the attack. Idr Maidenpool really featuring in the war in the first 3 books, but it's not just Randyll insulting him here, it's his own people saying he sat in his castle and never fought to defend the town. We know how Randyll feels about cowardice.

As for the marriage, I assume Tywin helped arrange it as part of his post-Red Wedding peace. Randyll's a good soldier who has let his liege take credit for his victory in Robert's Rebellion all these years, and hasn't complained about Garlan Tyrell getting his wife's family home, so I'm not surprised he didn't argue about this. He likes exercising power over those under him but bookRandyll may not be all that ambitious. He's just a small, simple, cruel man who enjoys his job.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Yes, it was Duskendale.  I had forgotten the name. 

Kevan thinks that Randyll might be more ambitious than he seems but I guess we'll find out for sure...if The Winds of Winter ever gets published.

[YaddaYadda]

38 minutes ago, benteen said:

Kevan thinks that Randyll might be more ambitious than he seems but I guess we'll find out for sure...if The Winds of Winter ever gets published.

It's coming in the next Brienne chapter, actually. 

[Avaleigh]

Samwell II

Sam is dealing with seasickness on the journey to Braavos. He tries to be brave in front of Gilly and notes that this is the first time Gilly has even seen the ocean. She begins crying when the ship sails away from the shore.

Sam tells Gilly about Braavos and says that they'll spend a few days there before they sail for Oldtown. He says that the food is good and suggests they see a mummer show while they're there. Sam hopes that the idea of doing something fun once they reach Braavos will excite Gilly but she doesn't seem to care and when Sam asks her what she would like to do, she says that there's nothing she's interested in doing. 

Sam prefers being on deck in the open air while Gilly prefers to remain below deck with the baby. Dareon spends a lot of time singing and when he sings "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" all of the oarsmen join in. 

Maester Aemon also prefers to spend his time on deck. He gazes across the sea and tells Dareon and Sam that he remembers how everything looked the last time he took a ship in this direction. 

"I was not born blind," he reminded them. "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

Dareon realizes that Maester Aemon is referring to Bloodraven and recalls that he's heard a song about him called 'A Thousand Eyes, and One'. Dareon says he thought that Bloodraven lived a hundred years ago. Aemon says that they all did and comments that he was once as young as Dareon. 

Dareon spends his days singing, Sam spends his days retching, Gilly spends most of her time crying, and Aemon spends most of his time sleeping.

Sam remembers the time he sailed to the Arbor and how the Redwyne twins made life miserable for him there. If Paxter Redwyne had been more impressed with Sam, Sam would have remained in the Arbor and would have eventually married Paxter's daughter. 

Sam thinks that it will be good to see his mother and siblings again. He hopes that she might even be proud of him now that he's a steward and a man of the Night's Watch. Sam pukes at the thought of having to see his father again. 

They pass Skagos and Sam thinks about all of the tales of cannibalism that have been told about the Skagosi. Dareon hopes that they'll catch a glimpse of a unicorn. 

Dareon and Sam discuss how Gilly is always crying and Sam suggests that maybe Dareon could play a few lullabies for the baby. Dareon declines and says that he can't abide the smell of the baby. 

The weather forces Sam to take Aemon below deck and when Sam wakes Aemon up, Aemon's eyes open and he says, "Egg, I dreamed that I was old." Sam carries Aemon downstairs and Gilly helps Sam get Aemon out of his wet clothes. They bundle Aemon with furs and Gilly agrees to help keep Aemon warm with her body. 

More storms come and Sam thinks about how much he hates the sea. He tries not to think about drowning. Some of the crew feel that Gilly is somehow responsible for the storms. Sam hears them say that they think they'll all drown unless they get rid of Gilly and the baby. 

Dareon is also frustrated with Gilly's presence and is angry that she's crying all the time. When he finally does play her and the baby a lullaby, Dareon snaps at her and asks her if she's able to stop weeping long enough to hear a song. Sam begs Dareon to continue playing but Dareon has had it. He tells Sam that Gilly either needs a spanking or a hard fuck. Dareon leaves so that he can go and drink firewine with the oarsmen. 

Sam is also frustrated with Gilly and asks Aemon if there's something that they can give her to stop her from being so afraid. Aemon explains that Gilly is currently grieving for her child. He goes on to explain that the baby Gilly is caring for us actually Dalla's and that Gilly was forced to leave her son at the Wall. 

Sam is shocked and doesn't think that Jon would be capable forcing Gilly to leave her son. Aemon explains that Jon wouldn't do that but Lord Snow would. He tells Sam that sometimes there are no happy choices. 

No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens, the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

Sam understands that Jon switched the babies in order to save Mance and Dalla's son from Melisandre's fire. Sam worries that Gilly's baby will burn and feels like no one will care other than Gilly.

Dareon is relieved to see that the stars are out and tells Sam that maybe the worst is over. Sam points to the gathering darkness and tells Dareon that the worst is only beginning. Dareon laughs and tells Sam that he's a craven. 

[John Potts]

I guess it was the crying that made me remember Gilly suffering from seasickness (I'd completely forgotten all the Mance/Craster baby switcheroo) but can I just say how creepy I found the idea that Gilly kept (a naked) Aemon warm "with her body". Now, I know that the best way of keeping somebody warm (in the absence of central heating/electric blankets) IS to wrap up with somebody else, but Gilly is somebody who was repeatedly raped by a much older man (who was also her father/grandfather), so bundling up with Aemon is probably going to bring up traumatic memories. And this is a girl who has just lost her baby. OK, needs must when you're facing Snowpocalypse, but you can't blame Gilly for crying.

[Lady S.]

John Potts, I hadn't even thought of that aspect (and I doubt GRRM did either) but, yeesh. Bad enough that poor Gilly just (needlessly) lost her child after all she went through to save him. Not to mention the crew blaming her for bad weather and Dareon thinking she needs to be spanked or fucked. 

I think this may be the first mention of Aemon's Uncle Bloodraven, not long before we meet him in what's left of his flesh in Dance.

Also an almost-first mention of Hyle Hunt, after we just met him with Brienne in the previous chapter, with Sam's memory of Hyle saving him from drowning. Throwing a son into deep water to force-teach him to swim seems to be one of the textbook stereotypes of bad hardass dads.

[Avaleigh]

I think my favorite bit in this chapter was reading about Sam's time in the Arbor with Randyll and the Redwynes. I was pretty shocked at the joke that the Redwyne's fool told in response to Randyll telling the Redwynes that Sam only needs a little seasoning when it comes to training in the yard. When the fool said that the only seasoning that San needs is salt, pepper, and an apple in his mouth, my first thought was wondering what Tywin would have done in the same situation. I wonder if the ban on apples for Sam continued when they went back to Horn Hill. I wonder what Olenna would have made of young Sam. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

I think my favorite bit in this chapter was reading about Sam's time in the Arbor with Randyll and the Redwynes. I was pretty shocked at the joke that the Redwyne's fool told in response to Randyll telling the Redwynes that Sam only needs a little seasoning when it comes to training in the yard. When the fool said that the only seasoning that San needs is salt, pepper, and an apple in his mouth, my first thought was wondering what Tywin would have done in the same situation. I wonder if the ban on apples for Sam continued when they went back to Horn Hill. I wonder what Olenna would have made of young Sam. 

 

Olenna likes Willas, who's supposed to be more a bookworm than a warrior, but she's also a pretty nasty person with little care shown for anyone outside her family, so hard to say. Would probably depend on what she thinks of the Tarlys as a whole. I could see her hating Randyll and being amused he had such a son but I doubt that would extend to actual sympathy for Sam. Funny how Randyll was forced to actually defend Sam trying to sell him to Lord Redwyne. Family honor meaning you're the only one allowed to insult your hated kin is Tywinesque, but Tywin would have carried that all the way and had a bad reaction to the fool's joke. (Tywin did allow Joff to humiliate Tyrion at the PW, but that was an intra-family quarrel involving their king.)

I wonder how much more disillusioned Sam would feel if he knew the whole story of the baby-switch. I understand why he didn't go into all of it, but Aemon rather underplayed his own role. He was just as responsible, if not more, warning Jon of the rumors about Mel and giving him the final push with the kill the boy speech.

ETA: The Skaggs may be cannibals but riding shaggy unicorns into battle sounds pretty cool. I like the idea of hardcore unicorns.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Lady S.

[YaddaYadda]

It's funny how those Redwyne twins are not all that liked in King's Landing and I sort of felt bad for them because a lot of emphasis is put on their looks, they are being kept in the city against their will. Then poor Sam tells us that they are bullies.

Anyway, the more we find out about Randyll Tarly and his brand of parenting, the more I figure the best thing to ever happen to Sam was to be sent away from Horn Hill. 

One of the things I have always enjoyed in the books are the little connections. So now we have Sam's connection to the Redwyne twins and we have a connection to Hyle Hunt. 

I feel so sorry for Gilly having her baby removed from her so that Mance's son could be saved. Reading ADWD chapters when Val returns from her "ranging" and wanting to see Monster because she actually loves him, and that the boy is cared for, I wish Gilly had a way of knowing that. I find that the worst a character in the books has it, the more GRRM doubles down on their hurts and pains. 

[Lady S.]

11 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's funny how those Redwyne twins are not all that liked in King's Landing and I sort of felt bad for them because a lot of emphasis is put on their looks, they are being kept in the city against their will. Then poor Sam tells us that they are bullies.

I guess it's not too surprising when their cousin Loras can be something of a dick, but even he must not like him since he left them behind to be taken hostage when he and Renly fled the city, even though it would have been helpful to Renly (if he lived long enough) to have the Redwyne navy on-side.

I just realized in relation to the above question about Olenna that she's not just a Redwyne by birth (and likely Paxter's aunt) but also mother to the present Lady Redwyne, one of Mace's sisters being listed as married to Paxter. So Desmera Redwyne is another granddaughter of hers, and though he's no Joffrey, no, I don't think she'd really like having a very overweight and very socially awkward boy matched with her granddaughter. Sam probably would have scared of her whenever they spent time together.

My favorite familial connection is that Sam and Shireen are second cousins through their Florent mothers, though they never interact in the books. 

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, Lady S. said:

My favorite familial connection is that Sam and Shireen are second cousins through their Florent mothers, though they never interact in the books. 

I don't know if I have a favorite familial connection, but I do like the degrees of separation that exist between the people Sam is connected (be it blood or otherwise) to and the Wall. Sam brings new people.

In Stannis's interaction with Sam, he talks only about Randyll Tarly. Stannis disregards the blood ties that exist between Sam and Selyse/Shireen. And maybe Stannis doesn't mention his wife and his daughter because the man Mel burned on Dragonstone to get her good winds to sail for Eastwatch was Sam's grandfather.

The men of the NW know Mel burned a man, but they don't know his identity. I imagine Axell would have been all too happy to tell him had Sam stayed put at Castle Black.

Sam's aunt Rhea is in Oldtown where Sam will be arriving shortly. She is married to Leyton Hightower who is the grandfather of Willas, Garlan, Loras and Margaery.

We should so have a thread about the characters's connections to each other. I actually think that connecting characters together gives away some of the story. This is a reason I consider the prologue of this book to be so important. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[Lady S.]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

In Stannis's interaction with Sam, he talks about Randyll Tarly. He ignores the blood ties that exist between Sam and Selyse/Shireen. His Florent blood seems to have been completely ignored. Maybe Stannis doesn't mention his wife and his daughter because the man Mel burned on Dragonstone to get good winds to sail for Eastwatch was Sam's grandfather.

The men of the NW know Mel burned a man, but they don't know his identity. Dickhead Axell Florent is Sam's mother's uncle. 

Well, that is kind of an awkward elephant in the room. Treat Sam like a Florent relative and that could lead to talk of the other common relatives and how the patriarch was just burned alive. Reminds me of Selyse shutting up Shireen when she brings up Edric to Jon because that's also a sticky and potentially embarrassing subject.

[WearyTraveler]

On 7/22/2018 at 7:32 AM, Lady S. said:

and though he's no Joffrey, no, I don't think she'd really like having a very overweight and very socially awkward boy matched with her granddaughter.

I think the only consideration for Olenna would be how beneficial the match would be for her family. She wouldn't discriminate on the basis of looks and/or character, but she would on the basis of social standing

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think the only consideration for Olenna would be how beneficial the match would be for her family. She wouldn't discriminate on the basis of looks and/or character, but she would on the basis of social standing

Or race. Just ask Oberyn and Ellaria. I don't think she'd object to the match and make a big stink, but I do think she'd be mean to Sam whenever they met because she's a mean person. I tend to view her insults towards male Tyrells as said with some affection but I doubt that family loyalty would extend much to any in-law who hadn't earned her affection. Especially so if Desmera wasn't crazy about him herself which she probably wouldn't be.

[Azi]

Hm, I actully think -ignoring the obvious "Sam is no (future) king" thing, Olenna would have been delighted by Sam. A boy starved for love and respect? Someone who is loyal to the people who are kind to him? Someone who would be nothing but kind to his future wife? Someone with no self-esteem? I think she might have considered the Sam at the beginning of the story prime manipulation material!
Now, if she'd succeeded in the long run probably would have depended on her longterm plans, what with Sam's built-in goodness.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Azi
typo

[Avaleigh]

Jaime II

Tywin's body is being escorted back to Casterly Rock by bannermen of the westerlands. Jaime talks with Kevan and tells him that he needs to make peace with Cersei. He reminds Kevan that infighting between the Lannisters will only help the enemies of their House. Kevan claims that if there is any strife between him and Cersei it will not be from anything he's done. Kevan says that he only wants to be left in peace and insists that his place is in Darry with his son Lancel. He wants to see Lancel get married and mentions that Lancel's bride to be is getting impatient waiting for them to arrive. 

Jaime thinks about how he's tried to talk with Lancel but has never managed to catch him alone. Jaime tells himself that Tyrion was lying about Lancel and Cersei and decides that his brother was just trying to hurt him. 

The discussion turns to the outlaws that raided the Saltpans. Jaime tells Kevan to let Randyll Tarly deal with the outlaws and says that he'd rather have his help with Riverrun. Kevan points out that Ser Daven has command of Riverrun and says Daven has no need of him. When Jaime advises Kevan to keep his knights around him, Kevan takes this as a threat but Jaime clarifies and says he only meant that it would be wise to be cautious since Sandor Clegane is so dangerous. Kevan tells Jaime that he isn't so foolish that he would try to face Clegane and Dondarrion on his own.

Jaime tells Kevan that Marbrand, Brax, Banefort, Plumm and a number of others are capable of dealing with the outlaws but only Kevan would make a good Hand of the King. Kevan says that Cersei knows his terms if she really wants him to be Hand. He tells Jaime to tell Cersei this the next time he's in her bedchamber. Jaime now accepts that Cersei was right and that Kevan knows about their relationship and the truth about Tommen and Myrcella's parentage. Jaime worries that Cersei might have Kevan killed.

Jaime tells Lancel that he is sorry that he won't be able to attend his wedding. He jokes with Lancel about having a bride who has already been married and says she'll be able to advise Lancel on what goes where during their wedding nignt. A bunch of the men laugh and Lancel responds that he knows enough about sex to be able to do his duty. Lancel tells Jaime that he prays for him and Cersei and hopes that the Warrior will protect her. Jaime again tells himself that Tyrion must have been lying and that Cersei would never be interested in a pious fool like Lancel.

King's Landing seems almost deserted now that Garlan has taken half of the Tyrell's strength back to Highgarden. Jaime goes to Cersei's solar where Tommen, Lady Merryweather and Pycelle are with her. Jaime can see that Cersei is drunk and thinks back to how she used to be so critical of Robert's drinking. Pycelle brings the news that Lollys has named her baby Tyrion. 

Jaime asks to speak with Cersei alone and once the others have gone, he comments on the company she's been keeping lately. Cersei says that Taena Merryweather amuses her and says that she's using her to feed Margaery whatever information she wants her to know. She also claims that Taena is a useful spy for her against Margaery. Jaime points out that Cersei doesn't know Taena well at all. Cersei feels that Taena is giving her useful information about the Tyrells. 

Jaime tells Cersei that she could make good use of Kevan by having him deal with Riverrun or Stannis but Cersei feels that Kevan is an old man whose best days are behind him. She thinks their cousins Daven and Damion will be more useful. When Jaime asks who she's going to have be Tommen's Hand, she suggests making Taena's husband Hand and mentions that his grandfather was a Hand to Aerys. Jaime remembers Owen Merryweather as an ineffectual man who was exiled and had his lands seized once Aerys grew tired of him. Cersei also considers Lord Hallyne and says that he wouldn't be the first pyromancer to serve as Hand. Jaime thinks about how he killed the last pyromancer who was Hand of the King.

When Jaime asks Cersei if she really means to make Aurane Waters the master of ships, she replies that Tommen needs young men around him in place of all the "wrinkled greybeards". Jaime says that Paxter Redwyne would be a better choice since he commands the largest fleet in Westeros, but Cersei refuses to consider Redwyne because he's one of the Tyrell bannermen.

Jaime tells Cersei how bad her choices are for Tommen's council. He thinks that Qyburn is her worst choice yet and reminds his sister that the Citadel stripped Qyburn of his chain. Cersei says that Qyburn is useful and loyal and that's more than she can say for members of her own family. Jaime tries to get Cersei to see that he and Kevan are not her enemies but she reminds him that he refused to help her when she asked him to be Hand. When Jaime brings up his vows, she says that his vows didn't stop him from killing Aerys. She says that Jaime could have had her but he chose his cloak instead. She tells him to get out and throws her cup of wine at him.

Jaime is in the common room of the White Sword Tower drinking wine and reading the White Book. Lancel joins him in the common room and says that Renly always said that books were for maesters. Jaime says that the White Book is for the men of the Kingsguard. Loras says that he's looked through the book once or twice and prefers books that have more pictures. Jaime says that Loras would do well to learn the stories of the members of the Kingsguard who came before them.

Loras recognizes some of the names that Jaime mentions but doesn't recognize some of the more obscure names. Jaime says that a lot of brave men have worn the white cloak but most of them have been forgotten. Loras says that the heroes will always be remembered. Jaime says that the best and the worst will be remembered. He then acknowledges that there are some like the Kingmaker, Criston Cole, who are a little bit of both.

[Lady S.]

Jaime starts this chapter thinking Tywin should leave by the Lion Gate not the Gate of the Gods, because even Tywin never claimed to be a god, yet I'd say it's a pretty appropriate choice. Just in Jaime's previous chapter I remember he had to wonder if he was praying to the Father Above or to his father's corpse. All three Lannister siblings act like Tywin is an all-powerful being ruling the world even if they never actually come right out and call him an eighth god or whatever. Then he asserts his claim to Cersei over pious Lancel (and re-asserts his manhood) by saying Cersei has no need of prayers to the Warrior when she has him, which would probably be considered sacrilegious. Boys and men may look up to the Warrior as their favorite god, an ideal to aspire to, but how many would say they were a perfect substitute for Him?

I don't blame Jaime for being in denial about Tyrion's parting words. He's not that blind to Cersei's faults and is growing ever more disillusioned with their relationship, though yes, he does naturally want to still believe that he was her one and only affair, but he is right about Lancel not holding much appeal for Cersei. Even before he was wounded and born again I don't believe she would have turned to him as a younger Jaime stand-in if she hadn't felt the need to seduce him to help her kill Robert. Tyrion never told Jaime that part and without the full picture it makes that much less sense. That's why he has to see Lancel at Darry to get that piece of the puzzle.

I love how throwing wine like a reality tv diva has already become a pattern with Cersei. And I like how you italicize Qyburn losing his chain but I think Jaime's right to first list riding Vargo Hoat as a big red flag.

It's cute that Jaime/Loras have gone from Jaime threatening to stick a sword "some place even Renly never found" to Loras feeling comfortable enough to casually mention Renly's porno books. Renly thinking books (without pretty or pornograhic illustrations) are only for maesters is another sign of him being pure style over substance and another similarity with Robert. Perhaps the most damning one considering the value of books/power of storytelling is kind of a minor theme in this series. There's a reason GRRM made not only his author avatar (Sam) but also his favorite character (Tyrion) both love reading.

[nodorothyparker]

This is one of those chapters where not a lot seems to happen but it's fun seeing Jaime process everything that's going on since Tywin died and Cersei's making so many clearly wrong-headed moves trying to seize all the power for herself.  The Cersei blinders are definitely coming off, albeit slowly, as he's still trying very hard to convince himself that Tyrion must have been lying about Lancel and by extension all the rest.  Even now, he's not yet fully getting that she's been using all of the men she's slept with for one purpose or another and that that includes him.  I like his internal commentary that Cersei likes to think herself like Tywin but even he realizes she isn't as she's too rash and lacking in judgment in elevating all the wrong people because she no longer has anyone to act as an effective check on her.

The conversation with Kevan is fairly revealing.  Again, seriously?  You're shocked just shocked that the twincest isn't a big secret to someone who's seen both of you and the children regularly how many months after Stannis's letter declaring it fact circulated throughout the kingdoms?  There's also the bit where Kevan takes what Jaime meant as a fairly innocuous comment as a threat and he's confronted, maybe for the first time really when there's no more Twyin for them all to maintain the pleasant fiction for, by how Cersei's terrible behavior taints him by association even as he's hastily reassuring himself that Cersei surely really wouldn't have their uncle killed.

The funeral cortège is so ridiculously over the top and so very Lannister.  No wonder all three kids had such a hard time discerning that Tywin was actually just a fairly terrible mortal man.  I kind of love the cheek of Bronn naming Lollys's bastard Tyrion although I never realized he was also stuck with the last name of Tanner until someone here pointed it out, which also makes that kind of terrible as well.

Jaime's coming off a little less "back in my day" this time around with Loras but still a little lecturey about knowing stories of dead men who probably won't ever make any difference to Loras.  Even so, I like the line "The best and the worst."  So one of us is like to live in song.  "And a few who were a bit of both."  That right there pretty much sums up Jaime's whole story, which I think on some level Jaime already recognizes.

[YaddaYadda]

Jaime's chapters have become some of my favorite ones to read. His exchange with Kevan Lannister is actually quite good. Kevan has been presented as someone who is rather meek by Tyrion, who doesn't have an idea Tywin didn't have first, yet, Kevan is very much his own person with his own mind who just happened to live in the shadow of his elder brother. I don't think Tywin kept Kevan around because he did whatever he wanted him to do, I think he kept him around because he could speak his mind and his truth the way he spoke it to Jaime in this chapter. 

And yes, Jaime, everyone knows you diddled your sister and have three bastard children with her. And this is one of the things that bothers me, that the only people who seemed to care about this were Jon Arryn, Ned, who lost his head and Stannis who isn't all that liked. The Tyrells are still insisting that Margaery marry Tommen even though they know exactly what he is and that's not even mentioning what Arianne tries to do with Myrcella. 

Cersei doesn't love Jaime or cares for him nearly as much as he does for her. 

I did enjoy the exchange between Jaime and Loras as well. He wants him to be better than Jaime was and it makes me wonder more about the relationship between Jaime and Arthur seeing as how much Jaime idolized him.

[nodorothyparker]

The Tyrells have been fairly consistent that they'll hitch their wagon to any claim that will plant a daughter and thus a grandchild on the throne.  They're clearly not all that concerned about legitimacy beyond the appearance of it.  And by this point in the story, it's not like there are a lot of other good marriage candidates to pick from.  

As for whether anyone else really cares, I've never gotten the impression anyone would have really been all that terribly concerned about the twincest beyond thinking "good luck marrying into that" had the products of it not been sitting on the throne with fraudulent claims.  In either the second or third book, Cat is reflecting on Stannis's letter and what had been said about how none of the kids looked remotely like Baratheons while Edric Storm did and even then she comments that it only means as much as someone wants it to mean.  Basically, if it benefits your own position to see it you will and if it doesn't, you won't.  Everyone else has bigger stuff to worry about and most of the people who chose to make an issue of it are already dead.

[YaddaYadda]

Olenna does explain why Mace wants Margaery to become queen. It's not going to make people think less of the Tyrells being upjumped stewards with Margaery married to a bastard boy. 

Wonder if he'll stick with Tommen to the bitter end.

Edited August 2, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[Lady S.]

On 8/2/2018 at 5:46 PM, YaddaYadda said:

Olenna does explain why Mace wants Margaery to become queen. It's not going to make people think less of the Tyrells being upjumped stewards with Margaery married to a bastard boy. 

Wonder if he'll stick with Tommen to the bitter end.

I don't think it's about gaining the admiration of the people who scorn the Tyrells so much as rubbing it in their faces Littlefinger-style when there's a half-Tyrell king on the throne, but there are plenty of others willing to jump on the Tyrell bandwagon and feed Mace's ego. If Marg had a son ruling securely it really wouldn't matter what the grumblers had to say. It's "those dreadful Florents" Olenna said were always whining about their claim to Highgarden, bannermen who have since hitched themselves to Stannis, the apparently lost side, and have already had their castle seized and given to Garlan Tyrell.

I'm sure the Tyrells would get their usual urge to jump if/when Tommen's regime becomes a sinking ship but I doubt Margaery's getting a 4th shot at a royal marriage. 

[John Potts]

I love how Cersei's only criteria for members of her Small Council is loyalty... and she manages to completely fail at even that. She fails to realise that her "loyal" Master of Whispers has switched to whichever group can get him best deal - which is great while the Lannisters are on top, but if Cersei looks like being toppled, he'll be gone before you can blink. She's so sure Lady Taenna is her "in" with the Tyrells that she doesn't consider that the Tyrells might have sent her to spy on Cersei. Kevan was Tywin's Yes man, so of naturally he'll follow her lead on all things. Auranne Waters as Master of Ships? Yeah, about that...

Tywin's genius was in co-opting his rivals to support his family by not opposing the Tyrells but going but Cersei seems only concerned with the woman she sees as the YMBQ - which given they are the ones supplying troops and food to maintain Kings Landing, is rather short sighted of her. As for supporting the clearly anti-establishment High Sparrow is an odd choice when you are the establishment. But don't worry, I'm sure that will work out fine...

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'm sure the Tyrells would get their usual urge to jump if/when Tommen's regime becomes a sinking ship but I doubt Margaery's getting a 4th shot at a royal marriage. 

I don't think anyone will want to touch Margaery with a ten foot pole after everything that's happened. 

[Lady S.]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:05 AM, John Potts said:

I love how Cersei's only criteria for members of her Small Council is loyalty... and she manages to completely fail at even that. She fails to realise that her "loyal" Master of Whispers has switched to whichever group can get him best deal - which is great while the Lannisters are on top, but if Cersei looks like being toppled, he'll be gone before you can blink. She's so sure Lady Taenna is her "in" with the Tyrells that she doesn't consider that the Tyrells might have sent her to spy on Cersei. Kevan was Tywin's Yes man, so of naturally he'll follow her lead on all things. Auranne Waters as Master of Ships? Yeah, about that...

Tbf, Qyburn is pretty much stuck with Cersei because nobody else would want him. A de-chained maester and ex-Bloody Mummer risen to the small council with full patronage for his creepy experiments is not only a very sweet deal but the only one he's likely to get. Once Cersei's gone, he can't switch titular masters like Varys did, he'd just be on his own back to where he was before he met the Lannisters.

As for Taena, Cersei does say she knows why Marg was happy to let her borrow a lady, the real problem is her ever-growing overconfidence that she can turn Taena as a double agent. But I don't think the Tyrells sent Taena to Cersei in the first place. Either she has another master or is just fucking with Cersei for her own amusement, seeing as how she betrays both queens in the end by failing to warn of the plot to arrest Marg. (Any Tyrell conspiracy theories which say they allowed that to happen are straight bullshit imho. Even if she's cleared, nobody wants that stain on their record.) 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Cersei III

Three men present Cersei with the head of dwarf that isn't Tyrion. She's angry when she realizes that she's kept the small council waiting only to be presented with the head of another innocent dwarf. She informs the men that they've killed the wrong man and only refrains from cutting off their heads because she doesn't want to deter anyone else who might be looking to capture or kill Tyrion. 

Qyburn walks with Cersei as they go to meet with the small council and Cersei thinks to herself that Qyburn is just as good as Varys was at being the master of whispers. She thinks about how stupid they all were to believe that Varys was irreplaceable. She's looking forward to seeing the look on Pycelle's face when Qyburn takes his seat on the small council. 

As Cersei anticipated, Pycelle immediately objects to Lord Qyburn being on the small council and says that the ex maester isn't fit. Cersei tells Pycelle that he has no business lecturing her after the way he ended up dealing with her father's corpse. Cersei asks if Qyburn knows the other councillors and he confirms that he knows everyone present. 

My councillors. Cersei had uprooted every rose, and all those beholden to her uncle and brothers. In their places were men whose loyalty would be to her. She had even given them new styles, borrowed from the Free Cities; the queen would have no "masters" at court beside herself. Orton Merryweather was her justiciar, Gyles Rosby her lord treasurer. Aurane Waters, the dashing young Bastard of Driftmark, would be her grand admiral.

Her Hand is Ser Harys Swyft and Cersei thinks of him as more of a hostage than a Hand. She thinks that having Ser Harys as her Hand will keep Kevan in check since Harys is the father of Kevan's wife.

Cersei explains the absence of Tommen and Jaime and asks for wine. After Orton Merryweather fills her cup with Arbor gold they get down to business.

Pycelle says the news from Dorne is that Prince Doran has taken the Sand Snakes into custody. He says that Sunspear is seething and that Doran writes to say that he won't be able to calm his people unless he receives the justice that was promised to him. Cersei says that she is sending Balon Swann to Sunspear to deliver the head of Gregor Clegane. Cersei thinks to herself how Balon has also been entrusted to perform another task while he's in Sunspear. Swyft asks if it's true that Gregor is dead and Cersei claims that Gregor died of his wounds just as Pycelle predicted he would. 

The talk turns to the growing number of Sparrows in the city and who the new High Septon will be. Multiple names are discussed and Cersei and Aurane both seem bored with the talk of septons. Cersei finds herself staring at Aurane and comparing his physical features to Rhaegar's. She wonders if Aurane would be willing to shave his beard for her. She thinks Aurane is attracted to her.

Cersei changes the subject to the situation in the Vale. Bronze Yohn Royce and several others mean to remove Littlefinger as Lord Protector of the Vale. Cersei asks the council if they should allow Littlefinger to be removed. After a bit of discussion, Cersei tells Pycelle to instruct the Lords Declarant that Littlefinger is not to be harmed. She adds that the crown is fine with "whatever dispositions they might make for the governance of the Vale during Robert Arryn's minority".

Aurane Waters says that they need to work on restoring their fleet. Pycelle asks where they're going to get money for a new fleet and Cersei says that she's decided to defer the crown's payments to the Iron Bank and Holy Faith until the war is over. Pycelle warns Cersei that it's going to cause a lot of trouble if they don't pay back the Iron Bank. Cersei replies that a Lannister pays his debts and says that the Iron Bank will get their money...eventually. 

Qyburn mentions how disgruntled the Sparrows are about the Red Wedding and suggests that it would be useful to them if some people were punished for it. Cersei thinks that once Lord Walder is dead they might be able to convince one or two of his heirs into turning on various "inconvenient" family members by naming them as culprits. 

There are rumors that Stannis has hired the Golden Company and is bringing them over to Westeros. Cersei doesn't believe that Stannis has enough gold to tempt the Golden Company. Qyburn has also told her that he's heard that the Golden Company is currently making it's way towards Volantis not Westeros. 

Pycelle says that Janos Slynt is saying that Stannis is trying to make common cause with the wildlings. Cersei thinks this is a desperate and foolish move that is only going to make it easier for Roose Bolton to win northmen over to their side. She mentions that even White Harbor is on the verge of joining them but admits that Lord Manderly refuses to bend the knee unless his heir is returned to him. Cereei is unclear as to whether or not the Manderly heir is alive but thinks that Manderly will get over the loss if they send him the heads of whoever was responsible for his son's death. 

Pycelle asks if Stannis is also trying to win over White Harbor and Cersei says that he's tried. She claims that Stannis has demanded White Harbor's swords and silver and has offered nothing in return. Cersei thinks that she should light a candle to the Stranger in thanks for him carrying off Renly instead of Stannis. 

Cersei mentions that a raven came in the morning saying that Stannis sent his onion smuggler to treat with Manderly on Stannis's behalf. Manderly responded by throwing the man in a cell and has asked the crown what should be done with him. Merryweather suggests they have the man sent to King's Landing so that they might question him, but Qyburn thinks that the man should die. Cersei agrees with Qyburn and says that she's instructed Manderly to cut the onion knight's head off. She thinks this will put an end to any chance of White Harbor supporting Stannis. Merryweather wonders what will happen if Manderly refuses but Cersei says that onion knight's head is the price Manderly will have to pay to make sure that his son's life is spared.

Cersei remembers that Manderly was once loyal to the Starks but doesn't think that should be an issue now that wolves of Winterfell have been "extinguished". Pycelle reminds Cersei that Sansa is still alive and Cersei starts ranting and raving about how she should have put Sansa in a black cell the moment they found out her father was a traitor. She goes on about how she made sure that Sansa was fed and clothed and allowed her to be a member of her household. She swears that when she finds Sansa that Sansa will be begging the Stranger for a kiss by the time she's done with her. The members of the small council stare at Cersei in silence after she finishes her rant. 

Cersei tells the council that Sansa's younger sister is soon to be wed to Ramsay Bolton. She says that if the North has to have a Stark then they'll give them one. 

Cersei informs the small council that Ned Stark's illegitimate son has been chosen to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. She says that Jon has admitted to giving Stannis's men food and shelter but insists that the Night's Watch isn't taking sides in the war. Jon asks the crown for arms and men and the council members all agree that Jon will need to be removed as Lord Commander. Qyburn suggests that Tommen send a hundred men to the Wall ostensibly to join the Night's Watch but in reality to make sure that Jon is removed. 

The meeting is about to draw to a close when Aurane Waters mentions that sailors from the east have been bringing back stories of dragons. Cersei is unconcerned and tells Aurane to get back to her when he hears any news of dwarfs. 

After the meeting is over, Cersei cozies up to Osney Kettleblack and tells hims that she wants him to seduce Queen Margaery. She says that he'll be sent to the Wall after they're discovered but assures him that he'll be allowed to return to King's Landing once he's done her another favor by killing a boy at the Wall who is in league with Stannis Baratheon. Cersei promises Osney a lordship when he returns and hints that he'll be a fit consort for a queen. Osney tells Cersei that he's her man and promises that he'll dream of her when he's with Margaery. 

When Osney leaves, Cersei thinks to herself that she was made for ruling. 

If Father could only see me now, he would not be so quick to speak of marrying me off again. A pity he's so dead. Him and Robert, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Renly Baratheon, all dead. Only Tyrion remains and not for long.

Cersei summons Lady Merryweather to her bedchamber. They drink wine and Taena tells Cersei about a lover she had who was a Myrish sea captain. Cersei asks Taena to do her a favor and tell Margarry that she has a secret admirer. She tells Taena not to admit that the admirer is Osney unless Maragery presses her.

When Cersei falls asleep she dreams that Tyrion's head is brought to her in a sack. She has the head bronzed and keeps it in her chamber pot.

[Avaleigh]

It never ceases to amaze me how incompetent, foolish, and egotistical Cersei is. And her behavior is only going to get worse from here on out. 

Her ego is so large that she can't even deal with the guys on her small council having the title of master. It's like she finds those titles threatening for some reason even though every other king to sit the Iron Throne had no issue with them. 

The plan with Margaery is too stupid. What makes her think that Margaery would throw caution to the wind over Osney or any Kettleblack? There's nothing in it for her. Then she's all smug about Margaery's secret admirer and somehow thinks that Taena is going to be helpful in planting the seeds to an adulterous and treasonous love affair. Osney too is a special kind of stupid to believe any of what Cersei told him. Assuming he even makes it to the Wall after being discovered with the king's wife, what man who joins the Night's Watch has ever been allowed to leave it? Especially if he ends up killing a brother of the Watch. Then not only does he think that he'll get this imaginary lordship but he thinks that Cersei will marry him after all of this? Lol. His only real concern seems to be spending some time where the weather will be cold.

I can understand somebody in our world blowing off rumors of dragons and treating it as a joke. That makes sense. I find it less plausible that someone as paranoid as Cersei who sees vipers in every shadowy corner wouldn't at least ask a few questions about what Aurane has heard regarding dragons. This guy is bringing it up at a small council meeting and it isn't as if these people don't know that dragons once existed. It isn't like dragons once existed millions of years ago either. It's been like, what, a hundred years? It just isn't out of the realm of possibilty that this could be a real thing so why not at least ask Aurane what it is he's heard? 

Also, only one guy on this small council sees the sense in at least questioning Stannis's Hand? Even Qyburn just thinks the guy should die even though it gains them nothing. Why wouldn't they see the sense in making Davos their own hostage? Even if they can't negotiate anything from Stannis, they might get some useful information. They don't know that Davos is a super loyal kind of guy so why wouldn't they try to talk to him to see what he knows?

We learn again that Robert was physically abusive to Cersei. Instead of making a comment to keep her in check and explaining that there are (nonviolent) things that he could do to her to make her life miserable if she ever harms one of his illegitimate children, he just blows off steam by hitting Cersei but ultimately allows her to have her way. It's like he sometimes doesn't understand that violence isn't the only answer to dealing with a problem. 

It's interesting that Pycelle doesn't like Qyburn because he and Qyburn are probably the two most sensible members of the small council. That's not saying much but it seems like Pycelle should know at this point that he'd do better to keep these sorts of opinions to himself considering how Cersei is pretty much looking for any reason to get rid of him.

Poor Jon. He's walking a fine line where he's trying to do the right thing, be objective and not take sides, and basically ends up pissing everybody off. What a thankless job he has. 

[John Potts]

58 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

The plan with Margaery is too stupid. What makes her think that Margaery would throw caution to the wind over Osney or any Kettleblack? There's nothing in it for her. Then she's all smug about Margaery's secret admirer and somehow thinks that Taena is going to be helpful in planting the seeds to an adulterous and treasonous love affair. Osney too is a special kind of stupid to believe any of what Cersei told him

Yes, I never understood why Cersei thought the Kettlebacks might be successful in seducing Margery. It seems Cersei has totally bought into her own propaganda: "Margery is a stupid promiscuous slut, so all I have to do is have some guy flex his muscles nearby and she'll leap into bed with him!" I'm not even sure why she thinks he'd be a good choice - does she have a reason to think they might be Margery's type (IIRC, they're both hairy guys, which maybe she thinks is Margery's type, but otherwise Margery seems much more interested in being Queen than anything else).

Nice to see that Cersei has absolutely no sense of loyalty either, contemplating bumping off a few Freys because it might be politically convenient. She also does the classic abuser line of, "I looked after Sansa when she was in Kings Landing, she should be grateful!" as opposed to going, "I made Sansa's life as miserable as I could manage when she was here!"

Is this our first mention of the Manderleys? OK, probably not as they must have been mentioned as being among the casualties/captives of the Red Wedding, but I can't say I'd noticed them being named before now.