Book 4: A Feast For Crows

[David T. Cole]

I'm starting these topics for Silverstormm but I don't know a lot of ASOIAF so I'm just going to say: "Hodor."

[Crossbow]

So, on the off chance that anyone is reading these threads...

 

In the first chapter, Aeron reflects that there are 4 kings in Westeros. I can only think of 3, since Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon are both dead. Balon Greyjoy and Stannis Baratheon both claim to be king, and Tommen Baratheon is actually on the throne. Am I missing one?

[Holmbo]

King beyond the wall? But that's not Westeros :/

[Hecate7]

Danaerys?

[SeanC]

The early part of the Ironborn plot in AFFC occurs contemporaneously with early ASOS (it opens with Aeron being told of Balon's death), so the fourth king is Robb, who was still alive at the time.

[glowbug]

So, on the off chance that anyone is reading these threads...

 

In the first chapter, Aeron reflects that there are 4 kings in Westeros. I can only think of 3, since Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon are both dead. Balon Greyjoy and Stannis Baratheon both claim to be king, and Tommen Baratheon is actually on the throne. Am I missing one?

 

This chapter takes place before some of the events of ASoS. Catelyn finds out about Balon's death before the Red Wedding in book three. This means the four kings he's referring to are Robb, Stannis, Joffrey and Balon. Renly is already dead. 

Edited September 6, 2015 by glowbug

[DigitalCount]

I'm actually doing a valonqar re-read right now, because ever since I saw the possibility (indeed, the grammatically high probability) that the identity of the valonqar was not the generally accepted candidate, I've been fascinated by what could have set people on that path in the first place. I think I may have figured it out.

During the first Cersei chapter, she says the term before we see the prophecy in its entirety. We get it in context, so the reader is already primed to accept the leading candidate thanks to being misled by Cersei herself. By the time we get the whole prophecy, we're already in a specific framework of substituting the word "my/your" for "the."

Tried to be as spoiler free as possible there, so people can figure out what I mean if they've already read the book.

[Crossbow]

I'm actually doing a valonqar re-read right now, because ever since I saw the possibility (indeed, the grammatically high probability) that the identity of the valonqar was not the generally accepted candidate, I've been fascinated by what could have set people on that path in the first place. I think I may have figured it out.

During the first Cersei chapter, she says the term before we see the prophecy in its entirety. We get it in context, so the reader is already primed to accept the leading candidate thanks to being misled by Cersei herself. By the time we get the whole prophecy, we're already in a specific framework of substituting the word "my/your" for "the."

Tried to be as spoiler free as possible there, so people can figure out what I mean if they've already read the book.

 

I have ideas about that too, but I'm not sure who the generally accepted candidate is.

Is it Tyrion? Of course I'd love to see him choke the life out of Cersei, but he's too obviuos.

This chapter takes place before some of the events of ASoS. Catelyn finds out about Balon's death before the Red Wedding in book three. This means the four kings he's referring to are Robb, Stannis, Joffrey and Balon. Renly is already dead. 

 

OK, thanks!

[DigitalCount]

I have ideas about that too, but I'm not sure who the generally accepted candidate is.

Is it Tyrion? Of course I'd love to see him choke the life out of Cersei, but he's too obviuos.

This post is nonsensically long, so for your sanity the second spoiler tag contains the tldr version. I do like being long-winded though, so if you want you can read the first for explanation.

 

The leading candidate right now seems to be Jaime. It’s an easy assumption to make. Cersei thinks, oh no, my little brother! Tyrion is gonna kill me! The reader chuckles to him/herself and says, lol Cersei, you have two younger brothers. The narrative never ceases to tell us that Cersei would be the heir to Casterly Rock from the beginning had she been male. Cersei came first. We get it hammered in from day one. People also play the “we came into this world together and we will leave together” thing into this. Apparently, this theory involves the logical extrapolation that Jaime, having finally fallen out of love with Cersei, will choke her (either with the chain of hands of the King, or his golden and flesh hands). This is usually after he finds out that she’s going to burn down King’s Landing, or that she’s somehow caused Tommen and Myrcella’s deaths (as the prophecy states that they will predecease her) and shortly before he himself dies.

 

My reason for why this is false is twofold.

 

First, to character. I personally believe that the opposite of love is indifference rather than hate. In Jaime’s case, I believe that he loves or loved Cersei, although it bordered on addiction or obsession. His current character arc is detox, learning to live without her and not define himself in relation to the destructive influences he defined himself by (Cersei’s twin and lover, the brilliant swordsman of House Lannister). In my opinion, not only would it utterly crash any and all development that Jaime has gone through to have him no longer be the “attack first, ask questions later” man that pushed Bran out the window, but it would take him from being obsessed with Cersei to someone who had freed himself from her dysfunction...only to become murderously obsessed with her once more. At the beginning of the series, he’s willing to kill because of Cersei. At the end of the story, I don’t want to see him willing to kill because of Cersei.

 

Secondly, grammar. Both Cersei and the reader can be forgiven for jumping to conclusions, because in both cases someone wanted them to get it wrong. Cersei is misled by the Frog; the reader is misled by Martin. In both cases, the person who wants to know something has to wait to find out some specific information, at which point it’s so divorced from the context that we have no choice but to make the wrong conclusion.

 

The first time we see the word valonqar, it’s near the beginning of Cersei’s first (?) Feast chapter. She thinks something like, “...and my twisted little valonqar will be short a head and rotting,” while she’s just awoken from a nightmare about Tyrion. The thing is, thanks to context, we can infer that the term valonqar refers to Tyrion, even though we don’t know what it means. By the time we hear it in the Frog’s prophecy, we’re already associating it with Tyrion, and learning that it means “little brother” makes us think that the twist is Jaime.

 

In Cersei’s case, she also doesn’t know what the word valonqar means, and she’s given herself a very good reason not to ask. Tween!Cersei believes that talking about the prophecy will make it more likely to come true, and she murders her best friend in keeping with this belief. By the time she asks the septa what it means, she’s had to overcome what seems like a strong compulsion not to ask, so we can infer that her mental state was troubled at the least. She already hates her own dwarf brother thanks to Tywin and latches onto this interpretation as the truth in this state.

 

In the reader’s case, Martin uses a bunch of narrative cheats, reminding us constantly that Cersei is the eldest of Tywin’s children and wording the answer to the third question differently than the answer to either of the first two. Martin does this so that the reader won’t pay attention to the fact that the Frog basically states who it is outright. She says the number of children Cersei and Robert will have, and then goes on to explain more things about the children. These things are that gold will be their crowns (they’ll rule), and gold their shrouds (they’ll die), and then the valonqar (younger brother) will kill her. By sticking in random descriptive imagery in between her phrases (which doesn’t happen in the first two answers) Martin makes us forget that Cersei asked about her children to start out with. All of the answers the Frog provides contain the immediate answer to one of Cersei's questions and then expansion on that answer. Not random flights of fancy. Not explanations to a question she never asked, how she’ll die.

 

“Will we have children?” “Yes, they’ll rule, die, and then the younger brother will kill you.” There’s only one person who fits that designation without being a non-sequitur, especially when the Frog limited Cersei to 3 questions explicitly.

 

Of course, you may be forming some sort of idea here of who I’m getting at, and thinking “that’s impossible, you said her children predecease her” to which I point out that a good many people in this story find death to be a poor barrier against committing murder. Schroedinger’s Catelyn is one such person. But the more important example is Ser Waymar Royce, the very first death in the series. Poor Will got a pair of icy cold hands wrapped around his pale white throat, but the man doing so was already dead. This is in keeping with how Othor tried to choke Jon to death in Mormont's chambers, also having died first. So if you think that Tommen dying will prevent him from being the valonqar...think again.

 

Incidentally, I’m ignoring Robert’s children because none of them have been able to rule. As far as I know, Cersei won’t cry at any of their deaths, mostly because she’s the one who caused most of them to die.

 

tl;dr: People think it’s Jaime, but it should really be Tommen raised as a wight

 

#palewightthroat

[Holmbo]

Yes very well explained reasoning for why that makes sense for the Valonqar to be that person.

I've been holding to this theory since I first seen it mentioned and I find it strange it is not more widely accepted.

[nksarmi]

DigitalCount - I agree with your theory on grammatical reasons though I admit that prior to coming here and reading this theory - I was on the more generally accepted bandwagon.  What I don't know is if GRRM intended to mislead the readers or if he played around a little too much with the prophesy.  Because by all accounts - you should be right.  I'm just not certain that you are.

 

It's the character reasons that I'm not 100% on.  I think if it is (I will add spoiler tags but this thread is coded for book talk so I'm not sure we need to)

Jamie that it would be a heroic killing not an obsessive or cruel one. But I believe that Cersei will go mad and someone might HAVE to kill her. In that instance, I don't think it would be out of character for Jamie to kill her. Heck, I can see him mournfully doing it and repeating his "the things I do for love" line as he does. Of course, what really gives me pause is his character development in the show. There he doesn't know about her unfaithfulness yet, he seems to still love her, they may have just lost their daughter and they will both blame him for that, etc... At this point, he seems much more on a path to grow to hate himself and remain unable to harm her even if she was going to burn the city to the ground. I think next season will tell us a lot about where Jamie might be headed in the books. The bottom line is that in terms of character development, I don't think Jamie is going to be ultimately redeemed or get a happy ending - but I do think he will get a hero's death. I just don't know if that hero's death will be giving Cersei the Mad King treatment or something else entirely.

Edited September 10, 2015 by nksarmi

[Crossbow]

tl;dr: People think it’s Jaime, but it should really be Tommen raised as a wight

 

#palewightthroat

 

I completely agree, although my reasoning is shorter: He's the very last person Cersei would ever expect.

[John Potts]

I may be misremembering the prophecy, but - Why does everyone assume Cersei will outlive all her children? IIRC, the line was "Golden their crowns and golden their shrouds. And when all your hope is gone the Volonquar will choke the life from you". All that says is (well implies really) is that they'll all her children will be crowned (which has happened, I think, since didn't the Dornish crown Myrcella on Joffrey's death?) and that they'll get a "Golden shroud" (which is pretty certain if they're royalty). Cersei's date with the Volonquar (whether that's Jamie, Tyrion, Tommen or somebody else) is due to happen "Once all her hope is gone" NOT "Once all your children are dead".

 Since Cersei's hope is (arguably) to rule through her children, after her "Walk of Shame" her power is broken and she is sent into exile to Casterley Rock, her hope is gone and can be killed at any time.

[DigitalCount]

The line is "when your tears have drowned you." (Can you tell which theory I'm obsessed with? I currently have Feast in my backpack.) It seems to accompany the idea of her attitude toward losing her children than anything else. Ironically, this reading does in fact require the reader to assume that all of the answer is related to the question, which is why it still baffles me that Jaime is such a leading candidate. I mean, it's practically RLJ status at this point.

That reminds me, I felt like the Frog was this wonderfully creepy hag in the books and for me, the show's casting seemed like the complaint you usually hear about the wildlings, just a messy-haired lamewad. With some makeup magic to make her haggard and scary, I would have backed Shohreh Aghdashloo playing her, especially since with her complexion and coloring she could believably be Talisa's grandma. That might have been influenced by her role in Flashforward though.

[John Potts]

DigitalCount The line is "when your tears have drowned you." (Can you tell which theory I'm obsessed with? I currently have Feast in my backpack.) It seems to accompany the idea of her attitude toward losing her children than anything else.

 

Thanks for the correction, but I still don't see any reason to suppose Cersei will outlive her children. I mean, if you're told that you can only by killed by a man "Not of woman born" (either the Shakespearean or Tolkien version) or that you'll be safe "Until Burnam Wood comes to Dunsinane" it would SEEM that you're pretty safe, but most people know how Macbeth turns out. "When your tears have drowned you" just (unless it's actually meant literally!) means "you'll cry a lot" - like maybe seeing your son stop listening to you, your power broken, your son dying in front of you, your father's death at the hand of your hated brother and public humiliation by being made to walk naked through the city - isn't that tears enough?

[nksarmi]

Well I thought "gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds" meant that Cersei's children would die young but not necessarily that they would be crowned (ie, it referred to the color of their hair).  But with the queen-making plot, it could mean crowns for all three.

 

However, as for tears have drowned you - it seems like that could have a lot of meanings but they seem to all relate to death.  I mean, the poison she had ready at the Battle of the Blackwater was "tears of" something so it could be a play on words related to that.  But I do think it's more than just sadness over the shame and humiliation of what the FM have done to her or her loss of power.  Tears drowning you seems like a total loss of everything - her children, Jamie, her family name, etc....

[Crossbow]

Somehow I think "When your tears have drowned you" refers to a specific time, as it's in the future perfect tense. "When your tears have drowned you." After your tears have drowned you, then the vaolonquar will choke the life from you.

 

I'm at the point in the book where we just met Kevan Lannister. Tywin's younger brother.

However, as for tears have drowned you - it seems like that could have a lot of meanings but they seem to all relate to death.  I mean, the poison she had ready at the Battle of the Blackwater was "tears of" something so it could be a play on words related to that.  But I do think it's more than just sadness over the shame and humiliation of what the FM have done to her or her loss of power.  Tears drowning you seems like a total loss of everything - her children, Jamie, her family name, etc....

 

Tears of Lys. But they're fatal, so if she took it no one would need to choke her.

[nksarmi]

Somehow I think "When your tears have drowned you" refers to a specific time, as it's in the future perfect tense. "When your tears have drowned you." After your tears have drowned you, then the vaolonquar will choke the life from you.

 

I'm at the point in the book where we just met Kevan Lannister. Tywin's younger brother.

 

Tears of Lys. But they're fatal, so if she took it no one would need to choke her.

 

I know but I was wondering if GRRM could use it as a play on words - like say she uses the Tears on Tommen to "save" him from an attack by the Others and then the undead Tommen theory comes true.  But I really don't think that's where he is going - just trying to point out that it's really hard to say where GRRM is going with that one.

[Crossbow]

Re-reading this book, I am really struck by how abusive Cersei is towards Jaime. There are so many people with so much motivation to strangle her. TV Cersei is downright cuddly compared to Book Cersei. And Tywin was right, she's not half as smart as she thinks she is.

[DigitalCount]

Thanks for the correction, but I still don't see any reason to suppose Cersei will outlive her children. I mean, if you're told that you can only by killed by a man "Not of woman born" (either the Shakespearean or Tolkien version) or that you'll be safe "Until Burnam Wood comes to Dunsinane" it would SEEM that you're pretty safe, but most people know how Macbeth turns out. "When your tears have drowned you" just (unless it's actually meant literally!) means "you'll cry a lot" - like maybe seeing your son stop listening to you, your power broken, your son dying in front of you, your father's death at the hand of your hated brother and public humiliation by being made to walk naked through the city - isn't that tears enough?

It's also placed sequentially directly after the gold shrouds bit, connected with "and," so I don't think it's a stretch to say they're related. I think they're related in the easiest way possible--Cersei cries at the golden shrouds of her three children. Indeed, one has already predeceased her in the book, and two on the show at this point. I see no reason to assume that that's not what the Frog meant.

[mac123x]

Lysa used Tears of Lys on Jon Arryn.  Show!Cercei was about to give Tommen essence of nightshade, which is a sleeping potion

[John Potts]

Well, given a familiarity with... well, just about any prophecy, ever, the "obvious" answer is never the right one. Hell, if I saw a prophecy saying "If you buy a lottery ticket with the numbers 4, 7, 14, 16, 23 and 42 you will win 5 million pounds" I would assume it would not be a good idea to do so, because it would never come true.* But I suppose the subversion might be that there is no Prophecy Twist!

 

* Well, I wouldn't read it in the first place, but if I knew I was living in a fictional world where I was a main character, I might!

[Hecate7]

Thanks for the correction, but I still don't see any reason to suppose Cersei will outlive her children. I mean, if you're told that you can only by killed by a man "Not of woman born" (either the Shakespearean or Tolkien version) or that you'll be safe "Until Burnam Wood comes to Dunsinane" it would SEEM that you're pretty safe, but most people know how Macbeth turns out. "When your tears have drowned you" just (unless it's actually meant literally!) means "you'll cry a lot" - like maybe seeing your son stop listening to you, your power broken, your son dying in front of you, your father's death at the hand of your hated brother and public humiliation by being made to walk naked through the city - isn't that tears enough?

 

No. As anyone who has lost their children knows, no. Cersei's suffering is trivial compared with that promised by the Frog. She will not have been drowned by her tears, until she has lost her children. She can fall a lot further, and that being the case, she must. Everyone sees their kid stop listening. She has to lose everything.

 

I think having "gold will be their crowns" refer to their hair color is very weak. All of them are the children of a queen, and so they should all die having been crowned in some context. Ditto "gold their shrouds." It's a prophecy with teeth, not some feeble metaphor.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Hecate7

[WindyNights]

I'm not sure why it can't be all 3. 

 

It implies they'll die young, come out as having blonde hair and be crowned. 

 

Also Myrcella being crowned already doesn't hold up as Arianne failed to crown her.

 

Take for instance, the prophecy about a young maiden slaying a giant outside a castle made of snow. That can refer both to Sansa somehow slaying Littlefinger and when she ripped Robert Arryn's doll up. 

[Audreythe2nd]

This post is nonsensically long, so for your sanity the second spoiler tag contains the tldr version. I do like being long-winded though, so if you want you can read the first for explanation.

 

The leading candidate right now seems to be Jaime. It’s an easy assumption to make. Cersei thinks, oh no, my little brother! Tyrion is gonna kill me! The reader chuckles to him/herself and says, lol Cersei, you have two younger brothers. The narrative never ceases to tell us that Cersei would be the heir to Casterly Rock from the beginning had she been male. Cersei came first. We get it hammered in from day one. People also play the “we came into this world together and we will leave together” thing into this. Apparently, this theory involves the logical extrapolation that Jaime, having finally fallen out of love with Cersei, will choke her (either with the chain of hands of the King, or his golden and flesh hands). This is usually after he finds out that she’s going to burn down King’s Landing, or that she’s somehow caused Tommen and Myrcella’s deaths (as the prophecy states that they will predecease her) and shortly before he himself dies.

 

My reason for why this is false is twofold.

 

First, to character. I personally believe that the opposite of love is indifference rather than hate. In Jaime’s case, I believe that he loves or loved Cersei, although it bordered on addiction or obsession. His current character arc is detox, learning to live without her and not define himself in relation to the destructive influences he defined himself by (Cersei’s twin and lover, the brilliant swordsman of House Lannister). In my opinion, not only would it utterly crash any and all development that Jaime has gone through to have him no longer be the “attack first, ask questions later” man that pushed Bran out the window, but it would take him from being obsessed with Cersei to someone who had freed himself from her dysfunction...only to become murderously obsessed with her once more. At the beginning of the series, he’s willing to kill because of Cersei. At the end of the story, I don’t want to see him willing to kill because of Cersei.

 

Secondly, grammar. Both Cersei and the reader can be forgiven for jumping to conclusions, because in both cases someone wanted them to get it wrong. Cersei is misled by the Frog; the reader is misled by Martin. In both cases, the person who wants to know something has to wait to find out some specific information, at which point it’s so divorced from the context that we have no choice but to make the wrong conclusion.

 

The first time we see the word valonqar, it’s near the beginning of Cersei’s first (?) Feast chapter. She thinks something like, “...and my twisted little valonqar will be short a head and rotting,” while she’s just awoken from a nightmare about Tyrion. The thing is, thanks to context, we can infer that the term valonqar refers to Tyrion, even though we don’t know what it means. By the time we hear it in the Frog’s prophecy, we’re already associating it with Tyrion, and learning that it means “little brother” makes us think that the twist is Jaime.

 

In Cersei’s case, she also doesn’t know what the word valonqar means, and she’s given herself a very good reason not to ask. Tween!Cersei believes that talking about the prophecy will make it more likely to come true, and she murders her best friend in keeping with this belief. By the time she asks the septa what it means, she’s had to overcome what seems like a strong compulsion not to ask, so we can infer that her mental state was troubled at the least. She already hates her own dwarf brother thanks to Tywin and latches onto this interpretation as the truth in this state.

 

In the reader’s case, Martin uses a bunch of narrative cheats, reminding us constantly that Cersei is the eldest of Tywin’s children and wording the answer to the third question differently than the answer to either of the first two. Martin does this so that the reader won’t pay attention to the fact that the Frog basically states who it is outright. She says the number of children Cersei and Robert will have, and then goes on to explain more things about the children. These things are that gold will be their crowns (they’ll rule), and gold their shrouds (they’ll die), and then the valonqar (younger brother) will kill her. By sticking in random descriptive imagery in between her phrases (which doesn’t happen in the first two answers) Martin makes us forget that Cersei asked about her children to start out with. All of the answers the Frog provides contain the immediate answer to one of Cersei's questions and then expansion on that answer. Not random flights of fancy. Not explanations to a question she never asked, how she’ll die.

 

“Will we have children?” “Yes, they’ll rule, die, and then the younger brother will kill you.” There’s only one person who fits that designation without being a non-sequitur, especially when the Frog limited Cersei to 3 questions explicitly.

 

Of course, you may be forming some sort of idea here of who I’m getting at, and thinking “that’s impossible, you said her children predecease her” to which I point out that a good many people in this story find death to be a poor barrier against committing murder. Schroedinger’s Catelyn is one such person. But the more important example is Ser Waymar Royce, the very first death in the series. Poor Will got a pair of icy cold hands wrapped around his pale white throat, but the man doing so was already dead. This is in keeping with how Othor tried to choke Jon to death in Mormont's chambers, also having died first. So if you think that Tommen dying will prevent him from being the valonqar...think again.

 

Incidentally, I’m ignoring Robert’s children because none of them have been able to rule. As far as I know, Cersei won’t cry at any of their deaths, mostly because she’s the one who caused most of them to die.

 

tl;dr: People think it’s Jaime, but it should really be Tommen raised as a wight

 

#palewightthroat

Just reading this thread now, as I'm rereading Feast for Crows myself.

 

I'm going to make a terribly declarative statement here. Digicount, I'm calling it now - yours is the completely 100% correct solution to the valonqar prophecy and there is literally no other alternative that is, not only possible, but definitive and final.

 

We can all go home now. :)

[DigitalCount]

Just reading this thread now, as I'm rereading Feast for Crows myself.

 

I'm going to make a terribly declarative statement here. Digicount, I'm calling it now - yours is the completely 100% correct solution to the valonqar prophecy and there is literally no other alternative that is, not only possible, but definitive and final.

 

We can all go home now. :)

Appreciated, but then here's the hilarious part: I no longer fully subscribe to #palewightthroat.

 

(Insert gasps here)

 

Yes, it's been my favorite theory for the better part of a decade, but sadly I have lost the faith and energy to continue putting all my stock in it. I still think it's the most logical interpretation--really, the only logical one--but the belief that

Jaime is the valonqar

is so strong that I have to wonder if I'm just not seeing something or being dense or anything along those lines. Given that even when it's explained a lot of people dismiss it out of hand, I can't see how it could be true. Right now, at most of the places where these things are discussed, Tommen doesn't even make the top 3 choices. Arya Stark is considered more likely than him, despite the word valonqar not being gender neutral. The battle is too far uphill. So, I'm basically throwing in the towel.

[Audreythe2nd]

Appreciated, but then here's the hilarious part: I no longer fully subscribe to #palewightthroat.

 

(Insert gasps here)

 

Yes, it's been my favorite theory for the better part of a decade, but sadly I have lost the faith and energy to continue putting all my stock in it. I still think it's the most logical interpretation--really, the only logical one--but the belief that

Jaime is the valonqar

is so strong that I have to wonder if I'm just not seeing something or being dense or anything along those lines. Given that even when it's explained a lot of people dismiss it out of hand, I can't see how it could be true. Right now, at most of the places where these things are discussed, Tommen doesn't even make the top 3 choices. Arya Stark is considered more likely than him, despite the word valonqar not being gender neutral. The battle is too far uphill. So, I'm basically throwing in the towel.

Lol, that's OK. I'll carry the flag for you.

 

Maybe it's because I watched the show first, but I think there is next to no evidence that

Jaime is the valonqar in that medium, which influences my reading of the books massively. However, there have been some interesting insertions in regards to Cersei/Tommen that make me think, "Oh yeah, this is where that story is going."

 

a) They've overemphasized

how much Cersei loves her children, how much her children are the only thing she has to live for. In my eyes, one of the reasons they may have done that is because her children are connected to her downfall. D&D massively love their irony, and the most ironic thing for SHOW Cersei would be if she's killed by Tommen, or if she kills him (or both).

 

b) They eliminated the valonqar part of the prophecy. I've heard some people argue that it's because it will make it really surprising when

it's Jaime!1!!!1! But no. I think, first of all, it's not the kind of thing that comes across well onscreen and here's why: to include the whole prophecy in one scene, they likely would have just translated it immediately when Maggy says it (ie. subtituted "little/younger brother" for "valonqar"). And when it's reworded like that, when you say the prophecy outloud when it's translated in that manner... well, to my ears it sounds even MORE obvious that it's Tommen.

 

As you said (and sorry that I'm just reiterating your own comments here DigitalCount) GRRM has to play about fifty different word games to disguise the actual meaning from both Cersei and the reader. He uses a foreign word, he separates the discovery of that word's meaning from the context in which it's used, he saves that prophecy for last thereby separating Maggy's initial declaration that she would only answer three questions (when really, the valonqar prophecy would the the answer to a fourth, totally separate question if the answer does not connect to one of her children), he separates the first part of the prophecy - "Gold will be their crowns/shrouds" - from the second part with a totally unnecessary sidenote of Cersei thinking about what it could mean, and how her thumb hurts, etc. making both the reader and Cersei forget that she's still answering the question Cersei asked her... about her CHILDREN. I mean... c'mon. It's obvious what's happening here.

 

c) If you're like me and tend to believe that the reference to

"tears" (of Lys) might actually refer to poison that Cersei administers to her children herself, then you probably also found that scene that George RR Martin wrote for Blackwater, in which Cersei almost poisons Tommen to "protect" him, both a clue as to this prophecy, and a massive hanging gun. My suspicion? Cersei is going to try this (again in the show... for the first time in the books) with Tommen and be successful, making her 100% responsible for the fulfilling the part of the prophecy where her children all die, and inadvertently responsible for her own death when said child rises again and strangles her. 

 

In conclusion, I don't care if that battle is uphill DigitalCount. The masses can most certainly be wrong - in fact, I almost delightedly count on it. :)

Edited January 17, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[DigitalCount]

In conclusion, I don't care if that battle is uphill DigitalCount. The masses can most certainly be wrong - in fact, I almost delightedly count on it. :)

I envy your positive attitude. I would love nothing more to read a Cersei epilogue

where it gets all chilly in the Red Keep and Cersei sees a pair of glowing blue eyes from her lovely boy.

I don't know, maybe I'm just bad at explaining it? When you laid it all out there I got a big smile on my face :D The biggest thing for me initially was and has always been the song-and-dance of that third question/answer combo. I'd be interested in finding out where most people think the answer to the third question ends.

[Holmbo]

My only doubt about it is that Martin will never get to the reveal and that the show won't be able to puzzle the events together to make it happen like Martin intended.

[Audreythe2nd]

I envy your positive attitude. I would love nothing more to read a Cersei epilogue

where it gets all chilly in the Red Keep and Cersei sees a pair of glowing blue eyes from her lovely boy.

I don't know, maybe I'm just bad at explaining it? When you laid it all out there I got a big smile on my face :D The biggest thing for me initially was and has always been the song-and-dance of that third question/answer combo. I'd be interested in finding out where most people think the answer to the third question ends.

I think something very much like what you said under your spoiler WILL happen, with one caveat:

it'll happen at Casterly Rock, not KL. I find it noteworthy that we haven't seen Casterly Rock yet, but Martin insists that we will at some point. That means some character has to go there. They've planted a few seeds in the books with mentions of Cersei wanting to move the court to Casterly Rock, and then the show had Tommen ask Cersei if she was going to return there... I like to think Cersei sets KL on fire or something and then drags Tommen off to CR where the final act of her story will occur.

 

As to the end of the third question... I think most people assume that the valonqar murdering her follows closely (like immediately) after her last child has died, which is why Maggy mentions it with that prophecy. But I say "nah." That would be an incredibly inelegant solution, beyond clumsy in its wording if that's the case. It still requires Maggy to go off on an unbelievable tangent, which - if you look at her previous predictions - she's not actually in the habit of doing. Everything she says follows logically from the question that was asked, even when she elaborates. This? Doesn't. Unless the valonqar is one of her children. Which it most certainly is, IMO. ;-)

 

 

My only doubt about it is that Martin will never get to the reveal and that the show won't be able to puzzle the events together to make it happen like Martin intended.

Nah, I'm not worried about this. They've obviously asked what happens to Cersei, and it would be as simple as George telling them who kills her or how she dies. There's no reason why they won't play it out as he intends. The only difference is that they decided not to foreshadow it directly with that part of the prophecy in the show, probably because a) it kinda really spoils that Cersei dying is a sure thing, which isn't really necessary (why not leave a bit of mystery there, you know?) and b) as I stated before, it's very much a written verbal word trick, not an audiovisual one. 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[Avaleigh]

Prologue

A bunch of students at the Quill and Tankard are discussing whether or not there are still any dragons in the world. While the students debate about whether or not dragons are extinct, a student called Pate thinks about how he's going to be able to earn a gold coin so that he can be with Rosey, the daughter of a seving maid at the Quill and Tankard. Pate thinks about how he once dreamed of being a maester in a castle and how now he'd be happy to simply be a barber. Pate feels that he would be happy living a simple life provided that he has Rosey by his side. 

Pate is waiting for an alchemist who has claimed to have the ability to turn iron into gold. Pate lets the alchemist know that he's a novice at the Citadel, so the alchemist asks if Pate is willing to steal something for him from the Citadel. Pate tells the alchemist that he isn't a thief and the alchemist says that if Pate reconsiders his offer then he can meet up with him at the Quill and Tankard and three days time. 

The conversation between the students continues and it seems that sailors from all sorts of backgrounds are telling stories about the existence of dragons. Some say that there are dragons in Asshai or Qarth, and others say that there are dragons in Meereen. One student says there are stories about the dragons freeing slaves. 

Pate thinks that the student Alleras is well on the way to becoming a maester. Alleras has only been at the Citadel for a year and has already forged three links on his maester's chain. Another student has several links on his chain but each link has taken him a year to earn. Pate by contrast has been at the Citadel for over five years and has yet to earn a single link.  

A student called Lazy Leo joins their party and says that the rumors about the Mad King's daughter having three dragons are true. Leo says that Archmaester Marwyn seems to believe the rumors about Daenerys and her dragons. Marwyn spent eights years away from Westeros making maps of distant lands and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders. The student Armen is dismissive of Marwyn's beliefs but Leo surprises them all when he reveals that Marwyn has a glass candle burning in his chamber. Armen doesn't believe that Leo saw a glass candle burning but Leo insists that he saw it with his own eyes and that it wasn't an ordinary candle. 

"I know what I saw. The light was queer and bright, much brighter than any beeswax or tallow candle. It cast strange shadows and the flame never flickered, not even when a draft blew through the open door behind me."

Alleras wonders if Marwyn's glass candle has anything to do with dragons being back in the world and Leo agrees that it's probably due to the dragons in addition to "darker things". 

Alleras and the others decide to head back to the Citadel but Pate says that he wants to stay at the Quill and Tankard for a bit longer. Leo joins Pate and insults him a bit more. He continues to suggest that he'll deflower Rosey and refers to Pate as a pig boy. Pate wishes that he could kill Leo but knows that Leo has been trained to fight because he's a member of House Tyrell. On the off chance that Pate did manage to best Leo in a fight, he knows that he'd be punished by having his head cut off, so he tells himself to let Leo's insults go. 

It's nearly dawn and Pate is upset that the alchemist hasn't arrived. He gets up to leave and tells Leo that he'll kill him if he doesn't leave Rosey alone. Leo replies that he doesn't fight duels with pig boys. 

Pate briefly considers running away from the Citadel but ultimately finds himself walking towards it. Pate hears worshippers of the Lord of Light in prayer and thinks about how everyone will have to learn the prayers of this religion if Stannis ends up winning the Iron Throne. 

Pate stops to rub some mud off of his robes when he's greeted by the alchemist. The alchemist asks Pate if he's decided who he is, and Pate reluctantly acknowledges that he must be a thief. The alchemist admits that he suspected as much. Pate thinks back to how he stole the key and how the key is supposedly able to open every door at the Citadel.

The alchemist leads Pate to a narrow alley away from the river road. Pate demands to have his gold dragon and is worried about being cheated. Pate bites on coin to make sure it's real even though he isn't sure what gold should taste or feel like. 

When the alchemist asks to have the key, there's something that makes Pate hesitate. He questions the alchemist and asks him if it's some book or scroll he wants, but the man says that what he's after is none of Pate's concern. Pate asks the alchemist to show him his face, so the man obliges and pulls down his hood. Pate doesn't recognize the man and asks him who he is. The man says that he is a stranger and says that he is truly "no one". 

Pate gives the man the key and notices that he's feeling light headed. He reminds himself that he's doing this for Rosey and turns away to leave. He's halfway down the alley before his legs give out on him and he falls to the ground. He asks what's happening to him and says that he doesn't understand. The alchemist tells him that he never will understand as Pate attempts to cry for help. Pate has lost the ability to use his voice and as he dies, his last thought is of Rosey. 

[benteen]

A lot of credit to you, Avaleigh for tackling this book.  While there's some strong stuff here (Jaime's storyline in particular) it can be a very frustrating read as well.

Although this prologue seems to have the least to do with things, I do appreciate getting a look at the Citadel.  I think it's been speculated/implied that the guy at the end is Jaqen.

[nodorothyparker]

On 1/11/2018 at 10:08 AM, benteen said:

A lot of credit to you, Avaleigh for tackling this book.  While there's some strong stuff here (Jaime's storyline in particular) it can be a very frustrating read as well.

This.  While there are stories in this and the next book I like a lot and find something interesting in with every reread, there's also a whole lot of skimming in both until I hit those particular chapters.

As always throughout this series, I enjoy all the rumor mongering among the random commoners.  It's always such a fun mix of truth, hearsay, and utter ridiculousness.

[John Potts]

For all that the show has a lot of complaints about Weirwood.Net keeping everyone informed, I love the way we get a semi believable recounting of how rumours are spreading around the world. Slightly disappointed that all the rumours are in fact true rather than slightly mangled (eg. "I'd heard the mad King's daughter turned into a dragon and destroyed Astapor!") which would be a believable rumour, given what the reader knows.

Assuming the Alchemist is a Faceless Man, did he kill the boy to purely to cover his tracks or was there some other reason?

[Avaleigh]

This is definitely the weakest of the five prologues IMO. You'd think that a chapter that features a Faceless Man would be exciting but it's mostly about some kid who isn't doing well in school and is saving up money to take the virginity of a would be prostitute. Not exactly compelling stuff. 

I didn't catch the Alleras/Sarella stuff until I read it on some message board. Considering how the Sand Snakes turned out on the show, I'm not exactly hopeful that anything big is happening here. Not that I'm exactly hopeful thay we'll ever get the two remaining books. 

I don't really understand why Pate had to die. He wouldn't be able to implicate the Faceless Men as an organization, the FM in question would be long gone, and it's likely that he's already stolen whatever it is that he needs to steal. Why not just knock the kid out for awhile while he does whatever it is he needs to do? Or he could have given Pate gold on the condition that he leave Oldtown immediately. 

Not for the first time am I reminded that Oldtown seems like a much nicer place to love than King's Landing. The Hightowers have it good. 

This Tyrell cousin is a real jerk. Sad that he gets off on tormenting a sad person like Pate. 

Pretty disturbing that Rosey is going to be thrown at the first man who's willing to offer a gold coin. It'd be nice to think that she's somehow able to get a better life. 

The first Damphair chapter is up next. What a let down the start of this book is after such an exciting finish with ASoS. 

[Avaleigh]

The Prophet

Aeron Greyjoy is spending his morning drowning men so that they can be "reborn". The first three men he drowns are unafraid to go through with the ritual, but the fourth guy Emmond ends up panicking and tries to fight for breath as he's held beneath the water. Aeron thinks that Emmond is weak in faith and tells him that it will do no good to fight. After Emmond stops struggling, the Damphair's men drag him onto the shore and form a circle around him so that they can begin praying. One man pumps on the guy's chest until Aeron moves in to give Emmond the "kiss of life". The ironborn version of CPR is successful and Aeron sees this as a sign of the Drowned God's favor. The Damphair tells the kid to rise and says, "You have drowned and been returned to us. What is dead can never die." 

Three riders have approached the scene and Aeron soon learns that his brother Balon is dead. Aeron asks how the king died and is told that he fell off of a bridge in Pyke. Aeron decides that the Storm God must have cast Balon down for making the ironborn great again. Aeron says that Balon is now feasting in the watery halls of the Drowned God where mermaids will cater to his every whim. 

Aeron agrees to ride to Hammerhorn to speak with Lord Gorold and instructs his drowned men to meet up with him later at Pebbleton beneath Lord Merlyn's tower. As he rides to the Hardstone Hills he starts thinking about his brothers. 

Quellon Greyjoy had nine sons. His first wife had three sons; the first two sons died as infants and the third son died from greyscale. Balon, Euron, Victarion, Urrigon, and Aeron are the sons of Quellon's second wife. Quellon's third wife gave birth to a sickly son named Robin. Aeron thinks of Robin as the Greyjoy brother that should be forgotten. Aeron believes that one day the brothers will all be able to feast together in the watery halls of the Drowned God. 

Aeron thinks about the success and strength that Balon showed when he was just a teenager. Aeron believes that Balon was everything that an older brother should be even though he showed his youngest brother nothing but scorn when they were growing up. Aeron feels that he deserved to be scorned by his eldest brother and thinks that it's "Better to be scorned by Balon the Brave than beloved of Euron Crow's Eye."

When Aeron arrives at Hammerhorn and is brought to Gorold's hall, he insists on speaking with Gorold alone. Gorold agrees to send everyone away but his maester. Aeron turns to leave after Gorold makes it clear that he's not going to force the maester to leave, so the maester jump starts the discussion and lets Aeron know that Euron has taken the Seastone Chair. Aeron is disturbed when he hears this and suddenly feels cold all over.

Aeron learns that Euron arrived to claim the crown and castle the day after Balon's death. Gorold asks Aeron if Balon spoke to him at all about the succession and Aeron remembers that Balon wanted Asha to be his successsor. Aeron thinks that Balon was wrong about this and doesn't think that a woman will ever rule the ironborn. The maester thinks that the law gives the Seastone Chair to either Asha or Theon but Aeron makes it clear that he doesn't really care about the laws of the mainland. Gorold wonders if Victarion will try to make a claim since he has the Iron Fleet and Aeron acknowledges that Victarion is a more godly man than Euron. Aeron decides that he needs to pray before he decides which of the candidates for the Seastone Chair should be supported. 

Aeron rides from Hammerhorn to Pebbleton and thinks about his brother Urrigon's death at fourteen. Urri and Aeron had been playing the finger dance and Aeron's axe ended up taking off three of Urri's fingers. Quellon's third wife had her maester attend to Urri and the maester thought it would be a good idea to sew Urri's fingers back on. Urri's hand became badly infected and the maester ended up sawing off the boy's arm in a futile attempt to save his life. When Balon found out what happened to Urri, he cut off the maester's fingers and had Quellon's wife sew them back on so that he would die the same painful death as Urri. Quellon's wife died soon after this incident after giving birth to a stillborn girl. 

Aeron thinks about how he spent his early adult years singing and dancing and getting drunk at every opportunity. He was captured early on in Balon's rebellion and spent the bulk of the war in the bowels of Casterly Rock. 

Aeron decides that Victarion is the one who should be king but understands that the idea is of supporting him is problematic because Victarion is younger than Euron.

When Aeron reaches Pebbleton he lets all of the people know about Balon's death. He gains some more followers and performs a few drownings before he retires to his shelter for a bit of rest. He thinks again about the succession and worries that Victarion will be concerned with going against tradition if he ends up stepping over his older brother to take the Seastone Chair.

When Lord Merlyn and others ask Aeron for his advice about who they should support to sit on the Seastone Chair, Aeron tells everyone who is listening that they should go to Old Wyk and return to Nagga's hill where they can have a kingsmoot. Aeron says it's been too long since the ironborn have had a kingsmoot.

"...in the dawn of days the ironborn chose their own kings, raising up the worthiest among them. It is time we returned to the Old Way, for only that shall make us great again. It was a kingsmoot that chose Urras Ironfoot for High King, and placed a driftwood crown upon his brows. Sylas Flatnose, Harrag Hoare, the Old Kraken, the kingsmoot raised them all. And from this kingsmoot shall emerge a man to finish the work King Balon has begun and win us back our freedoms. Go not to Pyke, nor to the Ten Towers of Harlaw, but to Old Wyk, I say again. Seek the hill of Nagga and the bones of the Grey King's Hall, for in that holy place when the moon has drowned and come again we shall make ourselves a worthy king, a godly king." He raised his bony hands on high again. "Listen! Listen to the waves! Listen to the god! He is speaking to us, and he says, We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot!"

The people listening to Aeron shout in agreement that they should have kingsmoot and Aeron thinks to himself that he's done well. 

[benteen]

An Aeron Damphair chapter...oof.  Once again, Avaleigh, I give you credit for re-reading it as Damphair chapters aren't exactly page-turners.  Damphair is pretty much a homeless guy living on the beach drinking seawater.

Although as bad as Aeron is, he STILL is a better brother than Euron.

They really should have backed Asha for the Seastone Chair.

Edited January 24, 2018 by benteen

[glowbug]

Damphair. This is one of those fantasy name blunders. I actually applaud GRRM for having so few of them considering how many characters he has but this was a total misstep. It wasn’t until Shimpy did her readthrough that I realized (through the discussion) that his name was “Damp-hair” not “Damfair”. P and H should not be next to each other in a novel written in English unless you want the reader to read it as an F. Asha and Theon are the only iron born POVs I find interesting and only when they’re not in the Iron Isles. 

[Avaleigh]

I have to admit that I laughed out loud when Aeron said that Balon was struck down by the Storm Lord because he was trying to make the Iron Islands "great again". MIIGA!!

As crazy as Aeron is (and he honestly is completely mad and damaged), at least his idea of having the kingsmoot is a fair one. Have their people choose the person they think is the best candidate. Listen to what each potential ruler has to say and then have a vote on it. 

I thought it was a great moment when the Maester and Lord Gorold are warning Aeron that Euron is already spilling blood when he has someone killed for daring to say that the Seastone Chair now belongs to Theon. Aeron's response is that a drowning means no blood was spilled and the maester and Gorold exchange a look as if to say, 'wow, Aeron's totally batshit but we still sort of value his opinion anyway.'

The whole thing about drowning people to have them be "reborn" is disturbing especially when we find out that Aeron has had people die on him during the ritual. He takes no responsibility for a life being taken and either chalks it up to this being the will of the Drowned God or the person not having strong enough faith. 

It really is extraordinary that Balon was supportive of the idea od Asha succeeding him considering how the ironborn treat most women. Aeron's only argument against Asha comes from the fact that she's a woman not because he finds her lacking when it comes to her skills, intelligence, or overall value. In any case he's wrong about the idea that all of the ironborn feel as he does about a woman ruling them because there are indeed ironborn men who are willing to support her claim. 

Urri's story is very sad. These guys are idiots to think that the finger dance is a game worth playing at any age. 

The stuff with Aeron drinking seawater the way other men in this story drink wine is too ridiculous. Also, Aeron must smell absolutely awful. Like a homeless man who reeks of body odor and fish. His skin must be horribly dry if he's only having saltwater baths. His feet are described as being black. I don't think I've ever wanted a character to have a bath as much as this guy.

Interesting that Aeron doesn't immediately consider that Euron might have murdered Balon. Does he just think it's a coincidence that Euron arrived a day after Balon's mysterious death?

Next chapter is Doran in the water gardens watching naked children play. God, this book is off to a lame start. 

[John Potts]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 5:08 PM, Avaleigh said:

The whole thing about drowning people to have them be "reborn" is disturbing especially when we find out that Aeron has had people die on him during the ritual.

But that's what makes it so believable. All sorts of crazy activities have been undertaken for the sake of "tradition" (from Apallachian Snake Handlers to the British monarchs "Touching for the King's Evil" to Trial by Ordeal and so on). He's a believer, so what's important is the will of the Drowned God - indeed, Aeron probably sees killing the unworthy as a good thing.

Did kind of like he way that old reactionary Balon, actually wanted his daughter to inherit, even if it was a radical departure from tradition. People aren't purely one note, even evil (debatable, but let's go with it) ones.

[Constantinople]

On 1/24/2018 at 12:08 PM, Avaleigh said:

The whole thing about drowning people to have them be "reborn" is disturbing especially when we find out that Aeron has had people die on him during the ritual. He takes no responsibility for a life being taken and either chalks it up to this being the will of the Drowned God or the person not having strong enough faith. 

And if they survive, you can't help but wonder if their brains have been deprived of oxygen for too long

[Avaleigh]

The Captain of Guards

Doran Martell is on his terrace watching children play in the Water Gardens. Obara, the eldest of the Sand Snakes, tries to go to Doran so that she can speak with him, but Areo Hotah blocks her path and tells her that the prince doesn't wish to be disturbed. Obara demands to know if Doran is aware that Oberyn is dead and Areo confims that a raven came to deliver the news. 

Obara says that all of Dorne is in mourning for Prince Oberyn and says everyone wants to know what Doran plans on doing to avenge his brother's death. Areo holds his ground when Obara tells him to get out of her way, but Doran eventually gives Areo the okay to allow his niece to pass.

Obara says that her father was murdered but Doran says that Oberyn's death in a trial by combat doesn't qualify as murder. Obara asks what Doran plans to do about her father's death and Doran says that he's written to Tywin and Tywin has promised to deliver him the Mountain's head. Obara wants to sack Oldtown and asks for Doran's permission to be allowed to use her spear. Doran tells her that he'll sleep on it and send her word of his decision to Sunspear. 

Doran tells Maester Caleotte that he plans on returning to Sunspear and asks him to send a rider to let Arianne know that he's coming. It's been two years since Doran was last at Sunspear and Caleotte worries about what people will do when they realize that Doran's gout is so bad that he can no longer walk. Caleotte also reminds Doran that he'll have to see Princess Myrcella and that Myrcella's knight Arys Oakheart makes sure to keep Myrcella's mother informed about the news in Dorne. Areo suspects that he'll end up having to kill Arys one day and wonders if that day is coming soon. 

Doran thinks about how he's outlived both of his younger siblings and asks Areo to leave him so that he can watch the children play. Doran stays on the terrace until nightfall and once he's asleep, Areo wheels him to his chamber and puts him to bed. 

The next day Doran and his party leave for Sunspear. When they are halfway there they run into another of the Sand Snakes. Doran informs Lady Nym that Tywin will be sending them the Mountain's head, but Nym isn't satisfied with this because she was told that her father likely poisoned the Mountain with his spear during their fight. Since the Mountain was going to die anyway, Nym asks for permission to kill Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, and Tommen. Doran argues that Tommen has never wronged them but Nym says that only royal blood can wash out the stain of Oberyn's murder. 

Doran says that Oberyn was not murdered since he willingly participated in the trial by combat. Doran says that he never asked Oberyn to do anything like that and says that he had him go to King's Landing in order to get an idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the king and the people on the small council. Doran also says that he specifically asked Oberyn not to provoke Tywin. 

Nym warns Doran that she and her sisters have no intention of waiting seventeen years to get justice for their father's death the way Oberyn waited seventeen years for justice for Elia and her children. 

When Doran arrives in Sunspear, the smallfolk call out to him and demand vengeance for Prince Oberyn. The people throw fruit at Doran's litter and demand to be allowed to go to war.

Arianne greets her father and tells him that the Sand Snake Tyene is waiting to speak with him in the throne room. Tyene also argues for war but thinks that they should provoke the Lannisters into attacking them at Dorne by crowning Myrcella as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Tyene argues that they have Dornish law on their side and says they'll have an advantage if the fighting takes place on their own land. Doran agrees to think over Tyene's plan. Tyene tells her uncle that he thinks too much.

After Doran has finished thinking everything over he orders Areo to get some guards so that the Sand Snakes can be taken and confined to the Spear Tower. Doran says that all Sand Snakes should be taken into custody save Sarella who is away from Dorne. Oberyn prays that Sarella shows more sense than her sisters. Areo agrees to do as Doran asks.

"It will be done." The captain hesitated. "When this is known in the streets, the common folk will howl."

"All Dorne will howl," said Doran Martell in a tired voice. "I only pray Lord Tywin hears them in King's Landing, so he might know what a loyal friend he has in Sunspear."

[Avaleigh]

So, the gout suffering, children watching prince travels to Dorne and puts his nieces under house arrest. That pretty much sums up this (boring) chapter in a single sentence. 

I can't say that I care much for the book Sand Snakes although I'll admit that they aren't as annoying as their show counterparts. Neither of the three women seem at all concerned with the fact that nobody forced Oberyn to be Tyrion's champion. He knew what he was signing up for but this important fact means absolutely nothing to them.

I thought the story about Obara being taken away from her mother was sad. Why did it have to be an either or sitiation?

Tyene's plan seemed to make the most sense. It's heartless of course, but if there has to be a war then I can see the sense of them wanting their enemies to attack them on their turf so that they'll have the advantage. 

Ridiculous that Tyene can justify killing Tommen because he's a bastard born of adultery and incest yet she's totally okay with making Myrcella their queen. 

Sarella is the only Sand Snake who doesn't cone across as an asshole so far. The young ones are probably okay too. 

I'm looking forward to the first Cersei chapter.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Cersei I

Cersei has a dream that she's seated on the Iron Throne. Dream Cersei is smiling at first until she realizes that she's naked and everyone in the throne room, including Tyrion, is laughing at her. She tries to cover herself with her hands but the throne begins biting her all over her body. The more she struggles the more the throne engulfs her. 

Cersei's nightmare is interrupted when her maid Senelle wakes her. Senelle looks scared and Cersei realizes that there are armed men in her bedchamber. She wonders where her guards are and tells herself that she mustn't show any fear. She's informed about Tywin's death and feels like she's still dreaming. She wonders if Tyrion is going to suddenly appear out of nowhere so that he can begin laughing at her again, but then she remembers that he's currently in a black cell and will be executed later in the day. 

When Cersei asks where Tywin's guards were when he was shot, Osmund Kettleblack explains that the guards were at their posts but the assailant entered via a secret passage. Osmund says that Jaime has gone down to see where the passage leads and Cersei comments that Jaime should be with the king. Osmund says that Jaime has sent a dozen men to look after Tommen and that Loras Tyrell is guarding him personally. Cersei is annoyed that a Tyrell is with her son but keeps her suspicions about the Tyrells to herself. 

Osmund accompanies Cersei to the Tower of the Hand and Boros Blount is given the task of making sure that Tyrion is still in his cell. As Boros walks away, Cersei thinks to herself that her father should never have allowed Blount back into the Kingsguard. 

Osmund tells Cersei that one of the guards found Tywin in the privy but Cersei still finds it hard to believe. She tells herself that isn't the way a lion is supposed to die.

If Tywin Lannister was truly dead, no one was safe . . . least of all her son upon his throne. When the lion falls the lesser beasts move in: the jackals and the vultures and the feral dogs. They would try to push her aside, as they always had. She would need to move quickly, as she had when Robert died. This might be the work of Stannis Baratheon, through some catspaw. It could well be the prelude to another attack upon the city. She hoped it was. Let him come. I will smash him, just as Father did, and this time he will die. Stannis did not frighten her, no more than Mace Tyrell did. No one frightened her. She was a daughter of the Rock, a lion. There will be no more talk of forcing me to wed again. Casterly Rock was hers now, and all the power of House Lannister. No one would ever disregard her again. Even when Tommen had no further need of a regent, the Lady of Casterly Rock would remain a power in the land.

Cersei gives orders for no one to enter or leave the Tower of the Hand without her permission. She thinks to herself that she's the only true son Tywin ever had. 

When Cersei sees Tywin's body she's surprised at how small and old he looks in comparison to how she remembered him. She's angry that the quarrel has been left in his body and wants to know where Pycelle is. When she finds out that Pycelle has already seen Tywin's body and left to summon the silent sisters, Cersei decides that Pycelle is useless to her. She's also angry that everyone else seems to have been notified about her father's death before she was informed. 

Cersei asks the guards to bring her a maester and one of the men comes back with a man who claims he used to be a maester. The ex-maester's name is Qyburn and when Cersei asks him what happened to his chain, Qyburn admits that the Citadel took it from him. Qyburn mentions that he treated Jaime's stump and was able save his arm. Cersei seems satisfied with Qyburn and asks him to attend to Tywin's body. 

When Qyburn asks what should be done with the girl's body, Cersei finally notices that there's a dead woman in the room. She wonders what Shae was doing in her father's bed and thinks to herself that her father had no use for prostitutes. She tells herself that her father never touched a woman after her mother died. When Qyburn suggests that maybe Tywin was questioning Shae about Sansa, Cersei is eager to accept this explanation but admits to herself that this doesn't quite explain why Shae was naked. 

The Kettleblacks are given the task of making Shae's body disappear. Cersei makes it clear that she doesn't want anyone to know that Shae was ever in Tywin's bedchamber. 

Cersei thinks back to the last conversation she had with Shae. Shae was asking about the jewels Tyrion had given her and wanted Cersei to follow through with the promises she'd made to her in exchange for testifying against Tyrion. Cersei made it plain to Shae that she wouldn't be given anything unless she told her where Sansa had gone. Shae left the meeting in tears. 

Jaime returns from searching the secret passageway and says that he wants to search again. He thinks it's possible that the killer could still be down there and this makes Cersei imagine Tyrion creeping between the walls. 

Jaime comforts Cersei with a hug and she thinks about how she wants to kiss him. She's confident that he'll come to her later for comfort. She tells him that he'll have to take their father's place and become Hand. She says that Tommen will need him. 

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face. "A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don't ask me to rule."

Cersei replies that she didn't say anything about ruling and says that she intends to rule until Tommen comes of age. Jaime says that he doesn't know who he pities more, Tommen or the Seven Kingdoms. Cersei slaps Jaime in the face after he says this and Kevan tells the twins to take their argument away from their father's body. Jaime asks for Kevan's forgiveness and explains that Cersei is sick with grief.

Cersei wants to slap Jaime again and decides that she was out of her mind to think that he could be Hand. She thinks that she would sooner abolish the office and thinks back to all the trouble she's had with every Hand of the King since Jon Arryn. Cersei decides that the next Hand will know his place and feels that Kevan is probably the best man for the job. She thinks about how dependable and obedient Kevan was to her father and thinks that she'll be able to rely on him. 

Cersei's thoughts turn to the Tyrells and she wonders if Mace and his bannermen might have had something to do with Tywin's death. She thinks that she'll have to be especially careful with Mace since his men are all over the city. She's also still angry about the fact that her father agreed to betroth Tommen and Margaery. She has her doubts about Margaery's virginity and decides that she's going to have Varys find out whatever he can. 

When Cersei reminds herself of Varys, she grows cold and wonders where he is. She thinks about how Varys was always around whenever anything important happened in the Red Keep and how this is the first time he's been MIA for big news. She thinks about how Tywin never liked Varys and suspects that Varys had something to do with her father's murder. She asks Meryn Trant to find Varys and wonders if the eunuch might have teamed up with Stannis. 

Blount returns after Trant leaves and gives Cersei the news that Tyrion is no longer in his cell. When Cersei hears that two of the men guarding Tyrion were found asleep, Cersei orders Blount to make sure the men sleep forever. 

He is in the walls. He killed Father as he killed Mother, as he killed Joff. The dwarf would come for her as well, the queen knew, just as the old woman had promised her in the dimness of that tent. I laughed in her face, but she had powers. I saw my future in a drop of blood. My doom. Her legs were as weak as water. Ser Boros tried to take her by the arm, but the queen recoiled from his touch. For all she knew he might be one of Tyrion's creatures. "Get away from me," she said. "Get away!" She staggered to a settle.

Blount asks her if she needs some water and Cersei thinks to herself that it's blood she needs. She wants Tyrion's blood and the blood of the valonqar. 

Cersei closes her eyes and sees Tyrion smiling at her. She thinks about how she was so close to being rid of him and now it's as if she can feel his fingers beginning to tighten around her throat. 

[Avaleigh]

 Cersei is such a big balled combo of crazy, selfish, delusional, and paranoid. 

Her thoughts are all over the place and her mind is going a mile a minute. She see enemies everywhere and her paranoia is particularly apparent in the scene where she goes off on Blount when he asks her if she needs some water. She flips out that he touches her arm and thinks that this guy has possibly conspired with Tyrion as if that makes any sense at all. 

Not only is she delusional enough to think that she's the only true son Tywin has ever had but in thinking that, she mistakes the nature and character of her uncle Kevan in every single way. She assumes that this guy is going to bow down to her simply because he followed and respected her father. She doesn't understand the dynamic between the brothers at all. Tywin's siblings (at least the two that we've spent time with) genuinely loved him. Tywin earned their loyalty and respect over the years. Kevan isn't an idiot and he isn't just going to follow someone blindly even if they are his flesh and blood. He was a dutiful younger brother but he had reason to be. She thinks that Kevan will obey her no matter what she does. 

It's not even really clear on why Cersei wants a Hand since she wants to do all of the ruling herself. What does she think is the purpose of the Hand if not to help rule the realm especially when the monarch is an actual child? Just the fact that she's considering abolishing the office indicates that she has no respect for the reason the office was created in the first place. It's an overwhelming job to be an absolute monarch so it makes sense to share the load and delegate tasks and responsibilities. 

What I find interesting is that even though Cersei is wrong most of the time, she occasionally has her finger on the pulse even if her signals are ultimately crossed. She senses that Tyrion has something to do with Tywin's death from the get go and actually visualizes him crawling through the secret passage. When she realizes that Varys isn't there, she automatically thinks that he must have helped Tyrion somehow. She's wrong in thinking that Stannis has anything to do with this but she's right about Tyrion and Varys being involved. She's also correct that it was a mistake to allow Blount back onto the Kingsguard. 

Her thoughts are contradictory wrt Shae. On the one hand she tells herself that there's no way that her father has ever had sex with a woman since her mother's death but even when she seizes upon Qyburn's explanation that Tywin was probably just interviewing Shae, the logical part of her brain, small though it is, is wondering why her father would interview Shae while she's naked. In her head she's hearing Tyrion mock how absurd the idea is that it was a perfectly innocent (nonsexual) interview.

Qyburn makes himself useful right away, doesn't he? Interesting that Cersei has no fucks to give that the Citadel took away his chain. She doesn't even want to know why they did it. She's just happier that he's younger than Pycelle. I think she also wants to stick it to Pycelle since he'll undoubtedly be offended that she'd rather use a maester who's been stripped of his chain over a grand maester like him. 

Cersei's nightmare is interesing because it almost comes across like one of Jojen's dreams. She does end up in power for a bit, she does end up naked in front of everyone while they laugh at her, and she does end up bleeding and broken by the end of her journey. Tyrion isn't there but she thinks about him on her walk. It's also worth noting that Jaime isn't in the dream just as he isn't there to protect her during the walk. 

I can't blame Cersei for being scared after waking up from the dream. If you're queen and suddenly a bunch of armed men are in your room to wake you up, you know it can't be for anything good. 

[benteen]

Cersei is such a mental case that she makes for an entertaining and interesting POV. 

Her not wanting to accept that Tywin frequented whores is reminiscent of Tywin refusing to accept that Jaime and Cersei were in an incestuous relationship.

Great point about Cersei coming to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons.  She's right to be distrustful of the Tyrells because we know that they killed her son.  She doesn't know that and her reasons for her Tyrell hatred are largely petty and paranoid.

The Cersei/Qyburn relationship is a fascinating one as Qyburn seems to be one of the only people that she has any sort of fondness for.  In these books, we know that they are both monsters and perhaps that's why they bond before they do.  Even before Cersei starts providing him with subjects for his experiments, we see that Cersei has had Robert's bastards killed, at least three of them no older than babies.   Qyburn definitely has his finger on the pulse of what Cersei wants.

Pissing of Kevan was the first of Cersei's many, many mistakes under her new reign.

Edited February 13, 2018 by benteen

[John Potts]

I love how Cersei re-writes the past here: suddenly, her father is the Great Lion, whose fall everyone will weep for. She starts out by doing exactly how she imagines her father would do, by ordering everyone around and promising vengeance on everyone. And of course, seeing enemies everywhere she creates enemies everywhere (say what you like about Tywin: he may not have trusted Roose Bolton, Lord Frey or the Tyrells - or Varys, for that matter - but he managed to get them to act as he wanted) and she can't understand why it isn't working for her. But in the way that a stopped clock is right at least twice a day, she does correctly identify Varys and Tyrion as being responsible (though the fact they both vanished at the same time was a pretty big hint) - though of course, she completely loses her mind and begins seeing Tyrion everywhere.

[nodorothyparker]

Cersei is such an interesting addition to the POVs because between all the workman-like details of her plotting and minutia she's trying to control and pettiness and threats she's making because that's what she thinks ruling means, there's all these pinwheels of paranoia and being overly impressed with her own cleverness going off.   She's not wrong that Tyrion's and then Varys's absences are a fair tipoff that they're the likely culprits, but it comes off more as lucky guesses swimming around in all that paranoia than any real reasoning, just as she's not wrong to be deeply mistrustful of the Tyrells but for mostly the wrong reasons.

I know we've discussed in previous rereads whether the valonqar prophecy and her being terrified of Tyrion is a late in series retcon/add on or something she kept well hidden until we got this peek inside her head.  Even with Tywin dead and Tyrion the likely culprit fresh off his regicide conviction, so much of her obsessing over Tyrion in this first chapter doesn't feel like it matches up much with the picture we got of their relationship in the previous books, which often seems more like 10-year-old siblings squabbling and trying to undermine each other rather than one being mortally afraid of the other.  I suppose the case can be made that maybe she didn't take it that seriously until first Joffers and then Tywin met untimely ends clearly not of natural causes but still.  It's also possible in this first chapter at least to imagine that some of her more muddled thinking can be attributed to being abruptly awoken by a roomful of soldiers to see her father laid out like that, I guess.

I do love the detail we get of Cersei not being the least bit interested in how Qyburn lost his maester's chain.  Her interest in Qyburn as with most people only goes as far as what use he can be to her, like in offering up the feeble excuse that perhaps Tywin was questioning Shae to explain her presence in his bed.  As always Kevan manages to be shocked just shocked at Cersei and Jaime squabbling over Tywin's body, yet as we'll eventually see he's still not as blind as Tywin was to his children's foibles.  Despite all the insistence throughout the series on their great star-crossed love, she's completely dismissive of Jaime beyond what use he might be.  She's absolutely convinced she's the smartest person in the room. 

[Avaleigh]

Brienne I

Brienne is searching for Sansa but nobody seems to have seen a girl matching her description. She wonders where she would go if she were in Sansa's position and basically feels that each possibility is as likely as the next. 

Brienne has dinner with two hedge knights. The knight Illifer recognizes her and accuses her of killing Renly. Brienne swears to the men that she didn't kill Renly and they decide that if she is lying then the gods will end up dealing with her. 

Illifer asks Brienne to take the first watch so that he and Creighton can get some sleep. When it's Brienne's turn to sleep, she feels uneasy and thinks about how the risk of rape is always a possibility. She eventually falls asleep and when she wakes up and sees that the hedge knights haven't taken any of her belongings, she feels good to know that there are still decent men in the world.

On the way to Duskendale the trio runs into a ragtag group of people who call themselves sparrows. The sparrows are devout worshippers of the Seven and they try to persuade Illifer and Creighton to escort them to King's Landing. Illifer makes it clear that they won't escort the group to Duskendale unless they're going to get paid so the sparrows get angry and tell the men that they're false knights. 

As they continue on towards Duskendale they run into another group of people. The group includes a merchant and a hedge knight named Shadrich. Shadrich reveals to Brienne that he too is seeking Sansa Stark and hopes to get a bag of gold from Varys if he's successful. 

The party stops at an inn and Brienne decides to pay for rooms for herself, Illifer and Creighton. During dinner the conversation turns to the Kingslayer and how he lost his hand. One man says that he heard Jaime had his hand bitten off by a direwolf so Brienne clarifies that Jaime's hand was actually taken by a Qohorik sellsword. 

Brienne's thoughts turn the fight she and Jaime had in the woods. She thinks about how great of a fighter he was and feels that it was cruel for his sword hand to be taken. She also thinks about how he gave her Oathkeeper and how he told her that she'd be defending Sansa with the steel that belonged to Ned Stark. She tells herself that she must not fail Jaime because Jaime has trusted her with his sword and his honor.

Brienne waits until Illifer and Creighton have retired so that she can leave the inn without them. She tells herself that she won't rest until she finds Sansa.

[Lady S.]

Hi, gang. Been having laptop issues and admittedly, I didn't care so much about falling behind once I realized it was time to dive into Feast.

A few belated thoughts on Cersei I, if I may.

On 2/13/2018 at 12:14 PM, Avaleigh said:

It's not even really clear on why Cersei wants a Hand since she wants to do all of the ruling herself. 

Yes, and why wouldn't she just make herself Hand? It's not like the Handship and regency are mutually exclusive. Robert meant for Ned to do both for Joff, and it makes more sense to me for the same person to do both, lest there be a conflict of powers. Show Cersei doesn't bother appointing a Hand but tells Kevan she knows it would be inappropriate for a woman to fill that role, which seems to be what's holding book Cersei back too. Idk how feasible a self-appointed first-time female Hand would be, but it's notable that Cersei, with all her other audacious decisions and very high opinion of herself, doesn't even consider it for a moment.  For all that she rails against being held back because of her sex and calls herself Tywin's true son, she's internalized her gender role enough to keep playing it into it, thinking that her best source of power is manipulating men with her sexuality. Thinking also of how she vainly tried to argue with Joffrey and then stood in mmute confusion at Ned's execution, which I do not think would have Tywin's response in that situation. 

On 2/13/2018 at 12:14 PM, Avaleigh said:

Cersei's nightmare is interesing because it almost comes across like one of Jojen's dreams. She does end up in power for a bit, she does end up naked in front of everyone while they laugh at her, and she does end up bleeding and broken by the end of her journey. Tyrion isn't there but she thinks about him on her walk. It's also worth noting that Jaime isn't in the dream just as he isn't there to protect her during the walk. 

Love it, nice catch.

Cersei thinking Jaime shouldn't be climbing ladders one-handed could the only time she's shown any concern for his maiming.

I have less to say about Brienne I, except that I'm pretty sure that's not just any band of Sparrows she encounters with the hedge knights. The description of their leader's lean, hard face and grey hair is similar to the description of the High Sparrow in Cersei's PoV, and it would be just like GRRM to first introduce a character key to Cersei's plot in Brienne's travelogue.