The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[DigitalCount]

Ned didn't believe Arya though. About the plot in the dungeon.

I think it comes back to what's been said that they could get away with it if they agreed to stop to not raise more suspicion.

I feel like that's a different circumstance. Arya didn't have anything substantial if I remember correctly. And I'm not sure how much of Ned's response was him not believing her versus him being dismissive, since he already knows he's in danger and admitting as much to his young willful daughter is not going to help anything. Bran only has to say "naked twins" without speculating on why they're naked and it's a huge problem. I agree that this was just bad luck for Jaime and Cersei in getting caught by Bran of all people. Edited October 7, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Lady S.]

Ned didn't believe Arya though. About the plot in the dungeon.

I think it comes back to what's been said that they could get away with it if they agreed to stop to not raise more suspicion.

He didn't believe Arya was lying, though, he just said the men she overheard may have actually been mummers. Bran saying he saw two naked people going at it is a much more clear story. Even if the twins miraculously decided to use some restraint, there's still the problem of them doing it for years until then and producing three secret bastards. Bran telling Ned would give Ned all the more reason to pick up Jon Arryn's trail, then he wouldn't even need Sansa to accidentally solve the puzzle for him. If they actually believed Bran was the first to find out then they could try to get away with it, but that wasn't the case. They knew that Jon Arryn was investigating the incest before he died, Cersei says in the tower scene that "It’s a wonder Lysa was not here to greet us with her accusations." which indicates she thought Lysa blamed them for Jon's death, and they knew Ned loved Robert and Jon Arryn but would never want to be Hand, so Cersei was not that wrong about Ned meaning to move against them. They didn't have to get caught in the act again to raise suspicions when they knew Jon Arryn's evidence was just waiting for Ned in King's Landing. Edited October 7, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

I think with Arya too it's not a matter of not trusting her but she probably was prone to the occassional bouts of exaggeration.

 

If Jaime and Cersei had shown restraint and gotten Bran to not say anything...I smell sitcom plot. ;)

[Avaleigh]

I'm actually one of like three people who don't think Jaime and Cersei were being reckless by having sex in the abandoned tower while everyone was away at the hunt. Who would predict that some kid would climb on the outside of some massive tower to spy on them especially when they haven't been caught since they were children.

I think the What if? scenario that's been running through my head is what if Joffrey had been a good kid? Wouldn't that have changed nearly everything?

Imagine if good Joffrey had become fast friends with Robb. What if he'd been sweet and kind to Sansa. What if he'd become close with his Uncle Renly and had Loras helping him train like Tommen. Would he have protested at the idea of firing Selmy?

Good!Joffrey wouldn't have had Ned killed, the smallfolk wouldn't hate him, he certainly wouldn't have died so young.

The idea of Joffrey being a good kid for me is right up there with 'what if Tyrion hadn't been kidnapped? ' or 'what if Bran had listened to his mother about climbing.'

I know it wouldn't have changed anything for Stannis but that's the only big issue I see if Joffrey hadn't been a little monster from the get go. Stannis and Dany.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Very interesting scenario.  I was wondering if Good Joffrey would have stopped Ned from telling the truth but he was willing to tell Robert anyway knowing that Tommen and Myrcella weren't the monsters their older brother was.

 

He definitely wouldn't have been murdered by the Tyrells if he had been a good kid.  But the Tyrells wouldn't have been in line to the Throne if Joffrey had actually loved Sansa.  LF might have tried to go through with it anyway if he believed Tommen would make a weaker and more controllable king.  Does Tywin still send Tyrion to King's Landing if Joffrey isn't doing as bad a job?  Good Joffrey, as you pointed out, likely doesn't execute Ned.

 

I think my What if scenario is if Robb had sworn fealty to Stannis.  A Robb/Stannis alliance would have been an absolutely ferocious enemy to the Lannisters, Grejoys and Tyrells.

Edited October 7, 2015 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

I don't fault them for being in the tower.  When you really think about it, it's probably one of the least risky places they've ever tried to be alone.  We're told about or shown them having sex in the sept, various castles throughout the Riverlands and Stormlands, next to a passed out Robert (really?!?), a Kings Landing tavern, and most likely the Red Keep itself.

 

In some ways, Joffrey being the evil psychopathic monster that he is almost feels like a copout.  It provides the easy answer for why Robert has no real relationship with him or why Jaime feels so little he literally can't even remember what he looked like when he learns he's dead.  There's no real emotional cost for the Tyrells killing him or anyone generally hating him or Ned wanting to knock him out of the succession because he's an evil incest bastard anyway.  Ned being so doggedly honorable, he probably wouldn't have been swayed from the reveal plan if Good King Joffrey had shown promising signs of greatness or had obviously truly loved Sansa, but it's fun to think about the real moral dilemma it might have been.  Stannis with the best legitimate claim to the throne but who would probably would have torn the realm apart in the fight for it or the truly good handsome young king whose succession would have ensured continued peace but lacked the right of bloodline to it? 

Edited October 7, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

Heheh.  Joffrey could be the greatest King the Realm ever saw and Stannis STILL would look to overthrow him because he wasn't the true king and deprieved him of his right.  I have absolutey no doubt about that.  Stannis is too much a stickler for rules and the way things out to be that he just wouldn't allow an illegitmate king to sit the Iron Throne.  Though he would have had even less support for a war than he did at the beginning of A Clash of Kings.  Probably just Davos...

Edited October 7, 2015 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

Very true.  But under my scenario, Stannis probably would have been an isolated rebellion and dealt with and it would have been a much, much shorter series.

[Avaleigh]

Good King Joffrey wouldn't have done anything to stop Dany either so there's that.

I agree that it would have been more interesting to see how Ned would react to condemning a good kid to Robert's wrath. Ned doesn't think much about Myrcella and Tommen but he thought about them enough to not wish death upon them. He was fine though with putting them through a miserable life of being exiled bastards even though they hadn't done anything wrong. This isn't on Ned more than it's on Jaime and Cersei of course, but I agree that Ned would have backed Stannis even if Joffrey had been a good kid who was in love with his daughter.

[nksarmi]

I don't know about Ned....I think the one thing that might have made Ned keep the secret is IF Joffrey and Sansa were truly in love.  Say what if Robert B had sent Joffrey to Ned every now and then to get to know the Northern parts of the kingdom (like Cersei would allow that! but let's go with it)....and Ned had known Joffrey since he was a boy and there was a true fondness between him and Sansa. 

 

Ned IS a man of honor, but most of us believe he has been lying to his beloved Cat for years and keeping one whooper of a secret for his dead sister so it isn't as if he's incapable of telling a lie.  I also think if he had seen a real father/son bond between Robert and Joffrey he might have held his tongue.  Like if he had seen that Robert truly loved the boy and hearing the news would crush his friend, he might have at least debated everything a lot longer.  I mean, in the end, he didn't tell Robert the truth as he was dying so I think there might have been reasons for him to hold his tongue in life as well.

 

Plus, I wonder if Joffrey was showing signs of becoming a good king - even better than his father - would Jon A have ever investigated to begin with?  I mean we know Jon was killed because of LF's scheming, not the twincest, but would LF had even gone for it if Joffrey was showing signs of being a good king?

Edited October 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[benteen]

Another interesting question.  Since Jon Arryn died before the story began, thus never becoming a POV character, we'll never get to know for sure.

[nodorothyparker]

Jon Arryn has always been a mixed bag to me.  Ned certainly has a sainted view of him, but he also sounds like he was a right ass to Lysa Tully for coming to him as less than a proper young virgin bride.  We know as hand of the king he's the one who arranged the Robert-Cersei marriage to tie Robert's rule to the powerful and wealthy Lannisters.  It makes me wonder if he wasn't trying to then get Robert out from under the crushing debt he'd allowed Robert to run up to Tywin by poking around in the twincest.

 

We do know Renly and the Tyrells had a separate plot to throw Margaery Tyrell at Robert in hopes of getting him to set Cersei aside, thus knocking down the Lannister influence.  I don't remember any mention of Jon Arryn having anything to do with that though. 

[Holmbo]

It does seem like having Joffrey be good king material could have made for an interesting alternative story. I feel like he'd have to have some substitute parent for it to make sense. No way Cersei or Robert would be any good role models.

[nksarmi]

Oh and one more thought (and I really do think we need some kind of "what if" or "alternate reality" thread lol) one of the only reasons I think Dany has a chance in Westerous is because of the chaos and war that began with the outing of Joffrey being a twincest bastard.

 

I mean, if just assume for a moment that Joffrey is a really good young man, noble, honorable, and everything Ned would admire.  So even if Jon A pokes around and the likes of LF, Renly, and Stannis all still suspect the truth, what changes from the moment the story begins if Joffrey shows promise of being a good king.  Well Lady lives for starters and both girls keep their wolves with them in King's Landing.  Can you imagine how Ned's mind might have changed if Joffrey was a good enough person that Lady liked him?  Also, Ayra holds no grudge over her friend dying and Ned can rebond with Robert B as they watch their children begin a romance. 

 

If Joffrey is a good kid, LF's plot to maneuver the Starks against the Lannisters becomes a little more difficult to execute.  I mean maybe he still sends an assassin to kill Bran, but perhaps he finds it more difficult to frame the Lannisters in the process.  So while LF would still be doing all her could to pit the Starks against the Lannisters, Joffrey being a good person might have changed how well that went. 

 

If Joffrey is acting as if he is going to be a good heir, and a romance is blooming between Sansa and him, I think Cersei might have used a different tactic on Ned - using their children to manipulate him and distract him from whatever LF was trying to get him to discover.  Heck, if she could have distracted him long enough for Sansa to "become a woman" she might have been able to launch into wedding planning and get the two hitched before Ned figured anything out.  That would practically secure Ned's support if Joffrey was ever accused of being bastard.

 

So if Robert B dies - with or without Cersei's help - and Joffrey is king with Sansa as queen, I think there is a good chance the Starks and the North support his claim.  If they do, there is no way Renly moves against them.  So that leaves only Stannis who is easily defeated.  That leaves a united kingdom that isn't in chaos and really gives Dany no chance to come an conquer - even with her three dragons.

[benteen]

If Sansa had married Good King Joffrey before the twincest, then there's no way in hell Ned would have raised arms against him.

 

Agreed that it would have taken a positive non-parent influence for Joffrey to be raised good.  Tyrion and Jaime could have been that good influence but Cersei didn't want either of them getting close to her son for wildly different reasons.  Tommen and Myrcella seem to have turned out okay though as they seem to have been largely ignored by their parents.

[glowbug]

If Joffrey is a good kid, LF's plot to maneuver the Starks against the Lannisters becomes a little more difficult to execute.  I mean maybe he still sends an assassin to kill Bran, but perhaps he finds it more difficult to frame the Lannisters in the process.  So while LF would still be doing all her could to pit the Starks against the Lannisters, Joffrey being a good person might have changed how well that went. 

 

There probably wouldn't have been an assassination attempt at all since it was Joffrey who hired the assassin. Good Joffrey wouldn't have done it. If there was no assassination attempt then Catelyn would never have arrested Tyrion in the first place.

 

It's hard to say what Ned would do if Joffrey had been good rather than evil. He wasn't as hard-nosed as Stannis about rules but he did do some morally ambiguous things in the name of the honor. He might have still thought it was his duty to out Joffrey to Robert, although protecting his family trumped honor so I agree that if Sansa had already been married to Joffrey he probably wouldn't have said anything. 

 

It's entirely possibly that if Joffrey hadn't been a psychopath that there would be no story south of the Wall or west of Essos. Dany's would still be trying to take the Iron Throne and there would still be White Walkers to worry about.

Edited October 7, 2015 by glowbug

[SeanC]

Ned certainly has a sainted view of him, but he also sounds like he was a right ass to Lysa Tully for coming to him as less than a proper young virgin bride.  

Per Lysa herself, he was perfectly "dutiful".  Catelyn wondered whether her not being a virgin was an issue, but I'd think that, as much as anything, it's that he was a very old man who had a busy job.  Arryn appears to have been voluntarily single (perhaps for a good while) before he married Lysa, so it doesn't look like he was interested in having another wife; he married her because Hoster Tully insisted if he was to join the rebellion.

 

If Joffrey is a good kid, LF's plot to maneuver the Starks against the Lannisters becomes a little more difficult to execute.  I mean maybe he still sends an assassin to kill Bran, but perhaps he finds it more difficult to frame the Lannisters in the process.  

Littlefinger didn't send an assassin after Bran.

[Hecate7]

Ned IS a man of honor, but most of us believe he has been lying to his beloved Cat for years and keeping one whooper of a secret for his dead sister so it isn't as if he's incapable of telling a lie.  I also think if he had seen a real father/son bond between Robert and Joffrey he might have held his tongue.  Like if he had seen that Robert truly loved the boy and hearing the news would crush his friend, he might have at least debated everything a lot longer.  I mean, in the end, he didn't tell Robert the truth as he was dying so I think there might have been reasons for him to hold his tongue in life as well.

 

I'm not sure Ned didn't already assume that it would crush Robert to learn Joffrey wasn't his. He didn't tell Robert on his deathbed. So you're probably right, but Jaime wasn't to know that.

[nksarmi]

There probably wouldn't have been an assassination attempt at all since it was Joffrey who hired the assassin. Good Joffrey wouldn't have done it. If there was no assassination attempt then Catelyn would never have arrested Tyrion in the first place.

 

It's hard to say what Ned would do if Joffrey had been good rather than evil. He wasn't as hard-nosed as Stannis about rules but he did do some morally ambiguous things in the name of the honor. He might have still thought it was his duty to out Joffrey to Robert, although protecting his family trumped honor so I agree that if Sansa had already been married to Joffrey he probably wouldn't have said anything. 

 

It's entirely possibly that if Joffrey hadn't been a psychopath that there would be no story south of the Wall or west of Essos. Dany's would still be trying to take the Iron Throne and there would still be White Walkers to worry about.

 

I was trying to remember if Littlefinger had anything to do with prompting Joffrey to send the assassin (in my head - Littlefinger must have told Joffrey that someone should do it as it would be a mercy and Joffrey goes from there) since he did have Lysa send Catelyn the letter accusing the Lannisters of killing Jon A. But yea, no assassination attempt and Catelyn probably doesn't take Tyrion hostage for any reason and all of book one plays out differently.

Edited October 8, 2015 by nksarmi

[benteen]

The only thing that would be left is Arryn discovering the twincest.  LF and Lysa still likely move on that.

[nksarmi]

The only thing that would be left is Arryn discovering the twincest.  LF and Lysa still likely move on that.

 

That's what makes me wonder if Cersei is sane enough to figure out that if Sansa and Joffrey are married (and its a love match) that Ned would become an ally instead of an enemy.  Heck, the Lannisters should have figured out an alliance with House Stark was in their interest years ago and betrothed Robb to some highborn cousin or set Myrcella up with Bran.  I mean for goodness sake as smart as Tywin is and he doesn't predict that he needs to unite with the North well before any of this happens?  The Lannisters really are too full of themselves - the whole lot.

[benteen]

Ned wouldn't have allowed his children to get into bed with a Lannister.  Yes, he thought Joffrey was half-Lannister but he looked at him as Robert's son.  I don't think Ned would have agreed to any kind of marriage alliance with Tywin because of what happened to Elia and her children.

[Lady S.]

Heck, the Lannisters should have figured out an alliance with House Stark was in their interest years ago and betrothed Robb to some highborn cousin or set Myrcella up with Bran.  I mean for goodness sake as smart as Tywin is and he doesn't predict that he needs to unite with the North well before any of this happens?  The Lannisters really are too full of themselves - the whole lot.

What reason did Tywin have to anticipate a Stark-Lannister conflict? He knew Ned was unhappy about the Sack of King's Landing, but that didn't really matter because Ned wasn't going to do anything about it, it wasn't some vendetta between them.

 

It does seem like having Joffrey be good king material could have made for an interesting alternative story. I feel like he'd have to have some substitute parent for it to make sense. No way Cersei or Robert would be any good role models.

Yeah, I don't consider it a copout when Joffrey's cruelty wasn't an isolated phenomenon. Cersei paid the most attention to him because he was the heir and she wanted to exercise power through him, so she was the his sole teacher about what it meant to be a king, molding him with her own fucked-up life philosophy and encouraged his worst qualities. And she couldn't teach him to wield power wisely because she didn't really have any idea how to do that.

 

I don't fault them for being in the tower.  When you really think about it, it's probably one of the least risky places they've ever tried to be alone.  We're told about or shown them having sex in the sept, various castles throughout the Riverlands and Stormlands, next to a passed out Robert (really?!?), a Kings Landing tavern, and most likely the Red Keep itself.

Yeah, them doing it in the same room where Robert was passed out drunk is why I don't think either of them was suitably concerned enough with keeping their kids safe. They couldn't foresee Bran climbing all over the castle, but his catching them should have induced some more lasting fear and caused them to re-think the dangers of their affair. Instead they just do it with even less discretion. Yes, it's unfair that adultery for a queen consort=death, but does that give them a free pass to kill however many people they had to keep their treason a secret? Especially since they could have easily lost "a war for Cersei's ****" if the Starks, Tullys, Tyrells, and Baratheon bannermen were all supporting Robert. The much safer way to protect the family would be to take as much precaution as possible not to let anyone suspect their secret in the first place, but it appears this time they did get seen in the act was the only time they could reasonably expect some privacy.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Lady S.

[netlyon2]

I was trying to remember if Littlefinger had anything to do with prompting Joffrey to send the assassin (in my head - Littlefinger must have told Joffrey that someone should do it as it would be a mercy and Joffrey goes from there) since he did have Lysa send Catelyn the letter accusing the Lannisters of killing Jon A. But yea, no assassination attempt and Catelyn probably doesn't take Tyrion hostage for any reason and all of book one plays out differently.

nksarmi, Littlefinger didn't travel to Winterfell and wasn't there to influence Joffrey.  It was actually Robert whose callous remark inspired the little wretch.

 

Littlefinger's chaos game is just so strong that not only was Joffrey's attempt to murder Bran perfectly timed with Lysa's message to Catelyn, but Littlefinger was also able to take advantage of the dagger issue when the whole drama made it to King's Landing.

 

Where I do think he influenced Joffrey is in Ned's execution and setting up Tyrion for murder. 

[nksarmi]

See how skivvy Littlefinger is?  I'm perfectly ready to blame him for something that he just happen to get lucky in!  And I SO think Littlefinger got Ned killed.  EVERYONE was saying "let him take the black" and back you as king and Joffrey goes all "off with his dead!"  As we see with both Ayra on the road to King's Landing and in the Battle of the Blackwater, Joffrey is basically a coward.  Somebody told him that executing Ned would make him look stronger than sending him to the Wall.  I have to say, I'd love to read an alternative story where Ned gets sent to the Wall instead.

[Avaleigh]

Bran I

Bran is all about looking out of his window these days because he feels like Winterfell has become a kind of prison for him ever since his accident; he thinks of his room as his cell. 

He's been dreaming about wolves a lot lately and takes comfort in the singing of the remaining two direwolves. He feels like the wolves are his brothers and feels that he can almost understand their language. He thinks it feels like he used to speak it once only now he's forgotten how.

Summer's howls were long and sad, full of grief and longing. Shaggydog's were more savage. Their voices echoed through the yards and halls until the castle rang and it seemed as though some great pack of direwolves haunted Winterfell, instead of only two . . . two where there had once been six. Do they miss their brothers and sisters too? Bran wondered. Are they calling to Grey Wind and Ghost, to Nymeria and Lady's Shade? Do they want them to come home and be a pack together?

Bran asks Ser Rodrik why the wolves are howling and Rodrik doesn't seem to think that any many can understand the mind of a wolf. Other men suggest that the direwolves want to hunt and are unhappy about being shut up in the castle. Maester Luwin suggests that the wolves are howling at the comet because they're mistaking it for the moon. 

When Bran tells Osha of Luwin's interpretation, she laughs out loud and says that Luwin has it all wrong. She says that comet is a sign of the Fire and Blood that is going to come. She also says that direwolves have remembered things that "grey" men have forgotten. 

Old Nan can't even see the comet but she's sure that it means "Dragons". Hodor still only says Hodor.

The wolves seem to be giving people sleepless nights with their constant howling and Ser Rodrik eventually has the direwolves confined to the godswood after Shaggydog bites yet another person. Bran is the only one who seems untroubled by the constant howling. He thinks of it as singing and wishes that he could be with the wolves. 

Bran still can't remember falling and thinks about how the wolves howled after he fell. He also thinks about how they seemed to know of Ned's death before word had arrived and wonders if the wolves are howling because something has happened to another member of the Stark family. 

Bran tries to make his own wolf call but thinks it sounds lame when he hears his attempts. He thinks that if he were a true direwolf then he'd already understand their song.

His attempts at howling bring his guard in to check on him and it's still weird for Bran he's been given a title upgrade now that Robb is a king. The guard doesn't like his prince's attempts at howling and brings over Maester Luwin to help deal with Bran. Luwin tells Bran that he should be asleep and Bran says that when he sleeps he dreams that he's a wolf. 

Bran likes his wolf dreams best but mentions to Luwin that he sometimes dreams of a weirwood tree and seems convinced that these trees have dreams in spite of Luwin telling him firmly that trees don't dream.

Maester Luwin seems to think that Bran needs to spend more time with other kids but Bran has no interest and already despises the new Frey arrivals because he blames them for the fact that he us now being separated from Summer since it was Little Walder Frey who was attacked by Shaggydog. 

Bran mentions that he already commanded Luwin to have the boys sent away and Luwin has to sternly remind Bran that it isn't his place to give orders that contradict those given by his lady mother Catelyn. Luwin tells Bran that Little Walder didn't ask to be attacked no more than Luwin wanted to be attacked when it happened to him. Bran says that Shaggydog is the wolf who is doing all of the attacking but Luwin reminds Bran that Summer has killed a man before so both animals are going to be treated like the dangerous beasts they seem to be. 

Bran thinks that he should be able to do as he likes now that he's a prince and wants to be allowed to ride and hunt and do a bunch of things that are simply not possible at the moment. Luwin says that Bran may well be able to do some of these things eventually but right now he could screw up Robb's entire campaign if he ends up getting kidnapped by some people who would be more than happy to sell him over to the Lannisters.

Bran thinks about how he really did try to welcome the Freys at first and that it was Rickon who was initially most upset about their arrival. Bran admits to himself though that he doesn't like that the kids are in Jon's old bedroom because he feels like they're trying to take Jon's place.

Everything changes after the kids play a game called Lord of the Crossing. Bran can't participate in the way that the others can and even Rickon is joining in. Shaggydog ends up attacking Little Walder during the playing after Little Walder hits Rickon in the stomach with a stick. Oddly enough, Rickon ends up taking to the Frey boys after this incident and it seems that Bran resents this on some level. Bran is especially upset when he learns that Rickon has taken the two Walders down to the crypts of Winterfell. He shouts at his brother that the crypt is for the Starks but Rickon doesn't see what the big deal is.

Maester Luwin interrupts Bran's thoughts to give him a sleeping draught. He says it will keep Bran from dreaming and Bran wants to believe this could be true. 

Osha hangs back to tell Bran that maybe he shouldn't fight so hard against the wolf dreams. She tells Bran that she's seen him praying to the heart tree and suggests that this could be how the old gods are trying to get in touch with him.

Bran falls asleep moments later and is soon dreaming that he's down in the godswood. He's in Summer's skin and he's enjoying the feeling of being able to walk again. He's hungry and ready to hunt but feels trapped. Shaggydog is restless too and he's constantly looking for a way out.

Bran's thoughts turn more and more into Summer's and he starts to think of himself as a wolf rather than a human.

His last thoughts are how the world feels as though it's closing in on them.

The world had tightened around them, but beyond the walled wood still stood the great grey caves of man-rock. Winterfell, he remembered, the sound coming to him suddenly. Beyond its sky-tall man-cliffs the true world was calling, and he knew he must answer or die.

[benteen]

I've always liked Bran's ACOK's chapters.  His being the Stark in Winterfell was always interesting to me.

 

I had forgotten some details like Rickon "warming" to the Frey boys after getting hit with a stick.  Summer REALLY did not like them and given how things turned out, that's not a surprise.

[Avaleigh]

It's interesting to contrast Osha's knowledge with Luwin's. Now that we've learned various things over the course of the series, she really is a pretty wise character. She's basically right up there with Septon Barth for me. Out of all of the characters too Luwin seems to understand the direwolves the least. Even the men in the castle realize that the direwolves want to hunt and don't like being shut up. 

 

Another thing that Luwin is wrong about are the weirwoods. Bran already knows that there's more to them than meets the eye but Luwin is totally dismissive. I don't blame Luwin, he's being logical when he says that trees don't have dreams and he's clearly concerned about Bran becoming increasingly isolated (I wonder what he'd think of tree!Bran), but I also feel like he isn't quite willing to accept that at the very least there's something extraordinary about Bran and the connection of the direwolves to the Stark children in general. 

 

Shaggydog continues to be a menace. Summer being locked up for Shaggydog's behavior sort of reminds me of Rhaegal and Viserion being shut up for Drogon's activities. 

 

I didn't remember Rickon getting along with the two Walders. That's actually the most surprising thing about this chapter to me. I think of Rickon as being such a loner for the most part save his direwolf and later Osha. 

 

I was also fascinated by Bran's meltdown at the idea of Rickon bringing the Freys down to the crypts where he used to play with the other siblings. I guess it's understandable that Bran would miss Arya and Sansa the most.  

 

I also like that Jon's absence is still felt from Bran's perspective. It's still Jon's room even though he knows it never will be again. 

 

I'm already halfway done so I'll try to put up Arya II tomorrow night to make up for the long gap. Sorry about that, guys.

[Miss Dee]

Don't apologize, it's a lot of work and you are awesome for doing it. :)

[glowbug]

Yes, please don't apologize. As an incredibly slow reader who would like to do a reread of this series but has a wish list of never read books a mile long that still needs to be read (and who just committed to reading War and Peace by the middle of November—likely won't happen but I'm going to try), I am so appreciative of your recaps. This thread along with stillshimpy's is keeping me sane while I wait for season/book six to arrive.

[Avaleigh]

One other thing I wanted to comment on is all of the stuff in reference to Prince Bran because it brings me to an interesting 'what if' scenario? What if Bran (and Rickon) hadn't been surrounded by good guys like Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik during this period? Imagine if he'd been around some weak dudes who were jumping to his tune and doing whatever it was that he commanded? I feel like there was potential for Bran to start picking up some negative qualities during this period that he thankfully avoided. He's learning that being a lord and prince isn't just about having people do as you command and that even princes (and kings) have to listen to the advice and wisdom of other people. A Lysa type as a guardian would have been a disaster.

 

Also, how sad would it be for Bran to watch those other kids having a blast playing Lord of the Crossing? I like that they gave him a role at all but yikes that must burn painfully. 

[Lady S.]

Smh at that little feral child bringing Freys into a private Stark place. Though, I did laugh at Rickon telling the Walders that everyone had their own names at Winterfell.

Also, how sad would it be for Bran to watch those other kids having a blast playing Lord of the Crossing? I like that they gave him a role at all but yikes that must burn painfully.

And he says they forgot all about him as soon as they started playing, so they probably just gave him a role out of obligation. It's no wonder Bran doesn't make more of an effort to socialize, he can't really play with them and they don't really care if he's there. It's quite natural Rickon would also want active playmates, but his spending so much time with them only makes Bran feel more left out because they're brothers and up to that point, they had each other after the rest of the family all left them. Not being able to participate in other kids fun makes it pretty hard to just watch without resentment. It's a fine line for a cripple, wanting to be treating like anyone else to not feel like a freak, but needing people to be sensitive enough to your limitations that they find ways to really include you, and there's not a good way to get people to include you without feeling like you're imposing on them.

[John Potts]

I actually like the way Luwin is portrayed as sceptical, but reasonably open minded (like when he mentions that maybe dragons once existed, but they don't any more - he's wrong, but not stupidly so). So the fact that Osha is correct (and Luwin incorrect) about what's happening beyond the Wall is reasonable, but wrong.

 

Avaleigh Hodor still only says Hodor.

 

I'm wondering if you're going to mention this every time!

[Avaleigh]

I actually like the way Luwin is portrayed as sceptical, but reasonably open minded (like when he mentions that maybe dragons once existed, but they don't any more - he's wrong, but not stupidly so). So the fact that Osha is correct (and Luwin incorrect) about what's happening beyond the Wall is reasonable, but wrong.

 

 

I'm wondering if you're going to mention this every time!

Hey, I go with what the book gives me. ;p I think the line was something like 'Hodor said 'Hodor' because that was all he ever said.' We were also told multiple times that Bran still can't walk just in case we'd forgotten. *shrug*

 

It did make me wonder again if Hodor will ever say anything else and if so what. I don't think he has anything to do with R'hllor but I do sort of like the theory that Hodor is the name of the Great Other. 

[John Potts]

The one I'd heard was Hodor was actually saying "Other", which I guess is basically the same theory

 

Avaleigh Hey, I go with what the book gives me. ;p

 

I know, it just struck me as funny and I was wondering if you were going to go: "In other news, Ned Stark is still dead, Jon is still a bastard, Varys is still bald and Littlefinger is still sneaky." You could make it an (ever expanding) running gag!

[Lady S.]

I actually like the way Luwin is portrayed as sceptical, but reasonably open minded (like when he mentions that maybe dragons once existed, but they don't any more - he's wrong, but not stupidly so). So the fact that Osha is correct (and Luwin incorrect) about what's happening beyond the Wall is reasonable, but wrong.

Yes, I think a lot of my affection for the Luwin character has to do with Donald Sumpter's performance, but I think he did the best that can be expected for someone with limited information. I get annoyed when I see him connected to theorized anti-magic maester conspiracies, when there's no indication his skepticism isn't entirely genuine. And I think it's important to remember that Ned, a pious old gods worshiper with a brother in the NW, was also a skeptic about all things supernatural, including the Others. So, imo, it has little to do with being in touch with the North or whatever, and more to do with seeing/experiencing = believing. Osha has seen the frozen dead walk and probably seen loads of other freaky shit beyond the Wall, Bran has had a prophetic vision about his father's death, felt a heart tree calling to him in his dreams, and has experienced being inside Summer's skin. He and Osha believe that magic is real not out of faith but because they know it as a fact. But then there's Old Nan, who may just be instinctively wise in the matters of white walkers and dragons, we don't know what she's actually seen.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Arya II

 

Arya wonders why they're the only ones traveling north. Lots of people pass Yoren's party and they all seem to be headed south towards King's Landing. At one point a crazed looking woman shouts at the group and tells them that they're going to be killed.

 

They see numerous graves as they continue up the road and one of their number ends up dying in the middle of the night. The man's belongings are split up between the group and Yoren gives Gendry the man's sword.

 

Later in the evening the party stops at an inn and Yoren decides that they have enough money for everyone to have a hot meal. He also gives them all the opportunity to properly bathe but Arya chooses not to even though she smells completely foul at this point.

 

The innkeeper provides the group with some beer on the house and tells them that there's little point in heading north because of all of the fighting. Yoren says that the Night's Watch takes no part so it makes no difference if they end up running into the Tullys or the Lannisters, and Arya thinks to herself that she cares very much since Lord Tully is her grandfather.

 

As Arya listens she learns that Robb is involved in the fighting as well and hears a man talking about how Robb supposedly rides into battle on an enormous wolf. Not everyone is convinced on the part about the wolf and Yoren makes it clear that he doesn't believe it for a moment.

 

The men continue talking and Arya hears about some aggressive packs of wolves that have been seen around the Gods Eye. She wonders if the Gods Eye is close to the Trident where she last saw Nymeria.

 

A she-wolf. Arya sloshed her beer, wondering. Was the Gods Eye near the Trident? She wished she had a map. It had been near the Trident that she'd left Nymeria. She hadn't wanted to, but Jory said they had no choice, that if the wolf came back with them she'd be killed for biting Joffrey, even though he'd deserved it. They'd had to shout and scream and throw stones, and it wasn't until a few of Arya's stones struck home that the direwolf had finally stopped following them. She probably wouldn't even know me now, Arya thought. Or if she did, she'd hate me.

 

When Arya interjects and says that wolves don't eat babies, she draws attention to herself and Yoren ends up claiming that it's because she's "greensick" with beer. Arya doesn't back down though and says that insists that wolves don't go around eating babies. After Arya says this, Yoren tells her to go outside and says that she's going to need to learn when to shut her mouth when men are talking. He tells her to make sure that the horses are being given water.

 

Once she's outside, Arya is still muttering to herself about how wolves don't kill babies when she comes upon the three prisoners who are being kept in a wagon in chains. The youngest of the men calls out to her to tell her that she could make a friend. Another of the men is missing his nose completely and Arya finds that she can't stare at him for long because the hole in his face where his nose should be is too unsettling.

 

One of the men goes out of his way to freak Arya out by making scary faces at her and this makes the young one apologetically point out that he didn't choose to be trapped with these two losers when they were all taken out of the black cells together. When the man speaks Arya thinks to herself that there's something about his manner of speech that reminds her of Syrio Forel.

 

The youngest of the men introduces himself as Jaqen H'ghar of Lorath and then introduces the men he's trapped with as Biter and Rorge. Rorge the Noseless soon throws a tankard at Arya's head and demands that she fetch them some more beer; Arya dodges out of the way and shouts at Rorge to shut his mouth. She draws her wooden sword on him and Rorge wastes no time in telling her that he'll rape her with the sword if he gets his hands on her.

 

Arya thinks about Syrio's lessons and tells herself that 'fear cuts deeper than swords.' She forces herself to approach the wagon and gets as close as she can but not so close that the men will be able to touch her. As Biter struggles to reach her with his hands, she ends up hitting him right between the eyes with her sword. Biter gets all pissed off when she does this and starts screaming and hissing and basically does everything that he can to try to break through his chains so that he can attack her. He struggles for awhile in frustration before finally giving up and Arya by and watches him. Jaqen tells Arya that she has more courage than sense.

 

As Arya backs away from the wagon, she startles herself when she bumps right into Gendry. He wonders what she's doing and reminds her that Yoren told them all to stay away from these prisoners. Arya says that the prisoners don't scare her and Gendry replies that she must be pretty stupid since they certainly scare him.

 

Gendry leads her away from the wagon with the prisoners and Arya soon asks him if he'd like to fight. She thinks to herself that she wants to hit something. Gendry declines and says that he doesn't want to hurt her. Arya tells him that he won't hurt her but Gendry says that she doesn't know how strong he is. Arya replies that Gendry doesn't know how quick she is. Gendry tells 'Arry' to promise not to cry if he ends up getting cut.

 

Just as Arya is getting into her water dancer's position, Gendry's facial expression changes and he tells her that he sees gold cloaks. Instinctively, Arya grabs Gendry's arm and pulls him down to hide with her behind a hedge.

 

An officer with the gold cloaks asks if they're part of the group that is headed up to the Wall to take the black. He says that he has a warrant for certain boy so Yoren asks who it is that wants the boy. The officer is already ticked and impatient and rudely tells Yoren that it's the Queen who wants the boy.

 

As Yoren and the officer are talking, Gendry asks Arya why they're hiding. She tells him to be quiet and says that she thinks the gold cloaks are there for her. Gendry asks her why she thinks that the Queen would be after her so she again snaps at him to be quiet and adds in a punch to his shoulder.

 

Yoren looks at the warrant, tells the officer that it's cute and everything but says that the boy in question is now a member of the Night's Watch and that means that whatever the boy did back in King's Landing is a thing of the past. The officer tells Yoren that the Queen isn't going to give a shit about his views when it comes to how it works in the Night's Watch and insists that he'll be taking the boy.

 

Arya thinks about making a run for it but knows that she won't get far on her donkey especially since the gold cloaks have horses. She also thinks to herself that she's tired of running. She thinks that if she were a real water dancer then she'd be able to go out there and kill them all and never have to worry about running again. 

 

Yoren again tells the officer that he won't be taking anyone and says that there are laws in place about this sort of thing. The officer draws his sword and Yoren informs the guy that he has a sword too. The officer points out that he has five other men and Yoren replies that he has thirty.

 

The officer looks at Yoren's ragged band of boys and men and seems to doubt that any of them would be willing to challenge him. When he asks who's going to challenge him first, he's surprised when multiple guys stand up and make it clear that they aren't going to go down without a fight. Even Hot Pie stands up and arms himself with a huge rock. Arya is completely shocked and wonders why Hot Pie would want to risk his life for her.

 

The officer continues to mock them so this makes Arya come out to face the gold cloaks with Needle in her hand. If the others are going to fight for her then she wants to fight with them. The officer looks down at her, calls her a girl, and tells her to put her sword away. Arya shouts at the guy that she isn't a girl and then announces to them that she's the one they really want.

 

After Arya says this the officer points to Gendry and says that he's the one they're looking for.

 

But it was a mistake to take his eyes off Yoren, even for an instant. Quick as that, the black brother's sword was pressed to the apple of the officer's throat. "Neither's the one you get, less you want me to see if your apple's ripe yet. I got me ten, fifteen more brothers in that inn, if you still need convincing. I was you, I'd let loose of that gutcutter, spread my cheeks over that fat little horse, and gallop on back to the city." He spat, and poked harder with the point of his sword. "Now."

 

The officer quickly drops his sword and Yoren tells him that they'll be keeping his blade since good steel is always needed on the Wall.

 

The gold cloaks get ready to ride off and the officer tells Yoren that he and his recruits had better get to the Wall fast because if they ever meet again the officer will be taking off Yoren's head along with Gendry's. Yoren seems unimpressed and replies that better men have tried to kill him before.

 

After the gold cloaks ride off, Hot Pie gives a little cheer but Yoren angrily tells him that he's a fool if he thinks this is over. He says that they need to haul ass now and they just might be able to stay ahead of the gold cloaks for a bit longer. He asks who wants to keep the officer's sword and Hot Pie speaks up first, so Yoren gives it to him but tells him that he's not to use it on 'Arry'.

 

Yoren goes over to Gendry and tells him that it seems like the Queen really does want to find him. Arya wonders aloud why the Queen would want Gendry and this makes Gendry scowl and ask 'Arry' why the Queen would want a gutter rat like him? Arya replies that he's nothing but a bastard boy and then wonders if Gendry might just be pretending to be a bastard. She asks him what his real name is and he tells her that it's Gendry but sounds as though he isn't entirely sure.

 

Yoren says he doesn't know why anybody wants either one of them but says that they aren't going to be captured no matter what they're wanted for. He says that if the gold cloaks should happen to catch up to them again then he wants Arya and Gendry to take the two coursers and ride for the Wall like they're being chased by a dragon. He thinks this is the best course of action since the gold cloaks don't care about the rest of the group.

 

Arya reminds Yoren that the one gold cloak officer is now all extra eager to kill him specifically, and Yoren responds that if the officer can manage cut off his head then he's welcome to keep it.

[Avaleigh]

Yoren is definitely one of those bad asses I sometimes overlook when I go down the list of tough guys who can hold their own when shit gets rough and when the odds are against them. Barristan, Yoren, Rodrik, Syrio, Cortenay Penrose, etc. You'd think Yoren really did have fifteen brothers in the inn with the way he was acting. 

 

I also liked how all of the guys were willing to fight like that one guy who didn't even have any clothes on but was already armed with a dagger and ready to go if necessary. A couple of these guys might have done well at the Wall.  

 

I loved Arya getting irritated when the officer called her a girl because she's usually annoyed when people mistakenly think that she's a boy. It's a moment that kind of reminds me of when Irri or Jhiqui say "It is not known" in ADWD. 

 

I would have liked to see how well Arya would have been able to handle herself against Gendry if they hadn't been interrupted by the gold cloaks.

 

I like that Arya is already wondering if Nymeria could be at the Gods Eye. 

 

Jon is up next. I just checked and we have awhile before we get to the next Dany chapter. We get three Arya chapters before we get to Dany. Interesting how different the pacing is with this book.

 

Dany actually only has five chapters in this book. No wonder they weren't sure what all to do with her during the second season. (That's even more of a reason why they could have spent more time making the House of the Undying cooler.) This books seems to mostly belong to Tyrion and then Arya. 

[Lady S.]

The line about Nymeria not knowing Arya or hating her if she did is one of those that really gets to me. 

 

 

I also liked how all of the guys were willing to fight like that one guy who didn't even have any clothes on but was already armed with a dagger and ready to go if necessary. A couple of these guys might have done well at the Wall.  

 

I loved that part too, I think on the show they had sticks and rocks but were just there in the background. The show couldn't have all the boys/men volunteering until Arya jumped out, because the tv goldcloaks couldn't know who they were after on sight if they were going to be tricked into thinking Lommy was Gendry in 2.03.

 

Something that struck me about Yoren's actions, in light of Jon's conflicts with neutrality and duty vs. family, is how this shows that no one in the Night's Watch really follows all that to the letter. Yoren's right that the recruits belong to the Night's Watch but Arya isn't a recruit, and he's going outside his duty and taking part in non-NW business by bringing her along and protecting her. Benjen claims that his only brothers are those in black, but Yoren doing all this for Ned and Arya because he's friends with Benjen. And we admire him for it, so I think we're meant to question these NW rules.

 

Since we have this chapter right before Jon I, I thought I'd point out that Jon is going to leave Castle Black while Yoren/Arya and co. are still way the hell down South. Since Ned was meant to travel with Yoren, this means that he couldn't have reunited with Jon right away if he somehow had made it to Castle Black as Varys wanted. The earliest Jon could have learned about his mother was after leaving Ygritte to return to Castle Black, unless knowing Ned was coming instead of knowing Ned was dead made the Old Bear scrap or postpone all his plans.

[benteen]

I enjoyed Arya's travels with the Night's Watch.

 

I never would have expected with his injury for Yoren to be such a badass but he is.  It makes sense though.  Surviving 30 years traveling Westeros, you have to be pretty tough.  I always thought that if I was in the Night's Watch, wandering crow is the job I'd want.  You're still bound to the NW but you get to travel and no doubt enjoy yourself in some cases.  It's clear that Yoren takes his job very seriously.

 

Yeah, Yoren is definitely violating the Night Watch's neutrality by smuggling Arya (Gendry to me falls under the NW's protection despite what Cersei might think) but I don't mind of course and maybe it makes sense.  Saving the King in the North's sister (even if Yoren probably thinks Robb is still Lord of the North at ths time) would make Robb indebted to him and willing to repay that debt once the war was over.  It's a gamble and obviousy one that doesn't pay off in the end.

 

I've love to know the story of how Jaqen ended up in that black cell.

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious as to how Yoren knows that Jaqen is as dangerous as Rorge and Biter. Jaqen's this seemingly mild mannered good looking guy. Not the sort I'd necessarily think a person would think needs to be chained up next to two hardcore slimebags who say something vile with every breath.

[Lady S.]

 

I never would have expected with his injury for Yoren to be such a badass but he is.  

What injury do you mean?

[benteen]

As I recall, Yoren had a hump from an injury.

[Lady S.]

I don't think that was ever said to be an injury. I would assume it was Weserosi scoliosis, which wouldn't necessarily stop a man from being a fighter.

[Avaleigh]

Jon I 

Sam has been in the library at Castle Black for what seems like ages looking for maps for the journey. Jon goes to check up on him once he learns that Sam's bed hasn't been slept in all night long. Once Jon finds Sam in the library he sees how excited his friend is to learn what an amazing collection Castle Black has amassed over the years. Jon doesn't seem all that interested and, after being asked, says that Winterfell had a lot of books too. 

Jon asks if Sam found the maps that Mormont needs and Sam says that he's found at least a dozen. Sam is super excited about everything he's been able to read and even shares with Jon an account of a ranger who lived back when there was a Stark who was a King in the North. 

Jon tells Sam that he could write about their upcoming ranging but immediately senses that this is the wrong thing to say. He knows that Sam is terrified to go and regrets making his friend all nervous again. Jon starts reading some of the scrolls that are in front of Sam and they get into a discussion where Sam starts explaining why the collection of reading material at Castle Black is such a treasure. Jon remains skeptical and thinks of treasure as gold and jewels. 

Jon says that the books will be there when they get back and Sam makes it plain that he doubts he'll be lucky enough to survive the journey. He says that he could teach Jon how to care for the ravens but Jon says that he won't have time with everything that he'll be expected to do for Mormont. 

Jon has to remind Sam of his vow to the Night's Watch and Sam replies that a man of the Night's Watch shouldn't be as scared as he is. Jon reminds Sam that they're *all* scared and admits that they'd have to be total fools not to be. He can't help but think about his uncle Benjen and about how he still has nightmares from the wight attack. Jon tells Sam that Ned once told him that it's fine if a man gets scared, it's how a man responds to that fear that matters most at the end of the day.

Jon helps Sam gather up the maps and as they head out of the library together, Jon starts thinking about how winter is coming. He thinks back to how he saw winter once when he was very young but by all accounts it was only a mild winter. Jon suspects that the upcoming winter will last a lot longer. 

When Jon and Sam emerge from the surface they take a moment to look up at the Wall.

Sam squinted up at the Wall. It loomed above them, an icy cliff seven hundred feet high. Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers, now the dirty white of old snow, and when a cloud passed before the sun it darkened to the pale grey of pitted stone. The Wall stretched east and west as far as the eye could see, so huge that it shrunk the timbered keeps and stone towers of the castle to insignificance. It was the end of the world.

And we are going beyond it.

They look up at the comet and it seems that some of the brothers have taken to calling the comet "Mormont's Torch". They half jokingly think that the gods sent the comet in order to light Mormont's way through the Haunted Forest. Sam comments on how the comet is so bright it can even be seen in the daytime now. Jon tells Sam to forget about the comet and says that the maps are what's important to Mormont at present. 

Ghost walks ahead of Jon and Sam and Castle Black seems fairly deserted with most of the rangers off drinking and whoring in Mole's Town. Some of the guys even offer to buy Jon time with a prostitute but Jon refuses to join them saying that he intends to honor his vows. 

There are some men who have chosen the sept over visiting Mole's Town. Jon wonders who feels better afterwards, the men visiting the sept or the men who choose Mole's Town. 

Ser Endrew Tarth is working with new recruits outside of the armory and Jon and Sam stay for awhile to watch. Jon thinks that Ser Endrew seems like a nicer master-at-arms than Thorne was. When Donal Noye asks Jon what he thinks of the new recruits, Jon replies that he thinks the men "smell of summer". They're told that the men come from the dungeon of some lord in Gulltown. 

Noye then asks Jon if he's heard the news about Robb becoming King in the North. 

"Last night." Conwy and his charges had brought the news north with them, and the talk in the common room had been of little else. Jon was still not certain how he felt about it. Robb a king? The brother he'd played with, fought with, shared his first cup of wine with? But not mother's milk, no. So now Robb will sip summerwine from jeweled goblets, while I'm kneeling beside some stream sucking snowmelt from cupped hands. "Robb will make a good king," he said loyally.

Noye isn't entirely convinced that Robb will make a good king and mentions that there was a time when he thought that Robert Baratheon would be a good king. Jon tells Noye that he heard Noye was the one who made Robert's famous warhammer. Noye admits that it's true and says that he was a Baratheon armorer down at Storm's End until he lost arm. He even knew Lord Steffon and has known the Baratheon brothers since they were born. Noye says that Robert was never the same man after he was crowned. 

Jon asks about Robert's brothers and Noye feels that Robert was the "true steel" among the three. He says that Stannis is an iron sort of man who will break before he bends while he likens Renly to a pretty piece of copper that is nice to look at but not worth all of that much when it comes down to it.

Jon wonders what sort of metal Robb is but knows better than to ask since men in the Nights Watch aren't really supposed to get too deep into what's happening south of the Wall. He changes the subject and says that Mormont is waiting for him. Noye says he won't keep him and comments that he hopes the gods are with them tomorrow. He tells Jon to bring back his uncle Benjen and Jon promises that they will. 

When Jon and Sam go up to the King's Tower to see Mormont, Sam spends some time whining about how he hates climbing up the stairs. Jon replies that at least Sam isn't going to have to deal with stairs once they're in the woods. 

Inside the solar, Mormont acts like Jon and Sam have been dragging their feet in getting the maps together. Thoren Smallwood is also present and he and Mormont are arguing about whether or not Mormont should have to stay at Castle Black since he's Lord Commander. Thoren thinks that he should be leading the command of the ranging since he's now the First Ranger. Mormont says that Benjen isn't officially dead yet and until they know for sure, Benjen is still the First Ranger. He informs Thoren that if they do find out that Benjen is dead that it'll be Mormont who appoints Benjen's successor not Thoren. 

Thoren leaves in a huff after Mormont makes it clear that he's not changing his mind and as he's leaving, he gives Jon a look as though he feels like his situation is Jon's fault somehow. 

Mormont looks at Sam and says that he'd make him First Ranger before he'd pick Thoren Smallwood. He's annoyed that Thoren feels he's too old to lead the men and asks Sam if he thinks he looks like he's weak. Sam is to nervous to properly reply so Jon tries to tell Mormont that he looks strong, but Mormont doesn't want Jon to coddle him with flattery. 

As Mormont starts looking through the maps he complains about how old they are and asks if there are any others. Jon says that they should still be able to use the maps as the hills and rivers will all be in the same places. 

Mormont asks Sam if he's chosen all of the ravens that he'll need and says that if they do end up dying on this mission then he'll at least want to let his successor at the Wall know what happened. Sam's mouth falls open as Mormont talks frankly about the possibility of them all being butchered and the Lord Commander eventually has to send the frightened teen back to Maester Ameon. Sam nearly falls over in his haste to leave the solar.

Mormont asks Jon if Sam is as dumb as he seems and mentions that Sam's father is one of King Renly's chief advisers. He'd considered sending Sam on a mission to ask Renly to provide the Night's Watch with supplies and possibly even men, but doesn't think that Renly will pay attention to anything that a scared fat boy would have to say. He decides to send Ser Arnell of the green apple Fossoways instead. 

Ser Alliser Thorne is on a similar mission to King's Landing and has the still moving wight hand with him as proof of what they're dealing with. Mormont mentions that House Lannister has never been a friend to the Night's Watch. He wishes that they could send Ser Arnell with a wight hand too. 

Jon says that Dywen believes that anything can be found north of the Wall. Mormont points out that Dywen also once claimed to have see a bear that was some fifteen feet tall and says that he'd have a better time believing his sister's claim of having had a bear for a lover. 

Mormont asks Jon how his hand is and Jon replies that it's getting better. Mormont wants to know if Jon will still be able to wield Longclaw and Jon says that he will. 

Mormont says that Aemon may be blind but he's still a sharp guy and mentions how Aemon might have been a king. Jon is surprised to hear that Aemon might have been king and is curious to hear more details. Mormont talks about how Aemon was packed off to the Citadel at a young age because he didn't appear to have the makings of a warrior. 

In the meantime a bunch of Targaryens died for various reasons. Some died from the Great Spring Sickness, one died of an STD, one died from drinking a cup of wildfire thinking that it would turn him into a dragon, one died in battle, etc. Eventually Aemon was quietly offered the crown but Aemon ultimately refused so the throne was given to Aemon's younger brother who was thereafter known as Aegon the Unlikely. 

Mormont's raven keeps repeating the word "King" and Jon says that the raven must like the word. Mormont keeps staring at Jon as he strokes the raven and it makes Jon feel uncomfortable. Jon asks Mormont why he's given him all of this info about Maester Aemon and Targaryen family history. 

"Must I have a reason?" Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. "Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother."

Jon says that they have a vow in common as well. Mormont snorts at this and basically says that all men break their vows in some way sooner or later.

Jon tells the Old Bear that he's always known that Robb would inherit Winterfell. Mormont says that being a lord and being a king are very different things. He contrasts all of the ways that Robb's life will be better different than Jon's and asks Jon if he seriously expects him to believe that Jon isn't all kinds of jealous. 

Jon's stands tall and asks Mormont what he should do if he is indeed troubled by the fact that it seems like his brother Robb has everything and he's only getting the dregs. Mormont repeats the question and asks Jon what a bastard like him should do?

Jon replies that he'll have to remain troubled and keep to his vows.

[Lady S.]

Interesting how we hear about Robb in Sansa, Bran, Arya, and Jon's PoVs before seeing him as king in Cat I. Kinda sets up his status for the rest of the book where he's offscreen and his exploits are only heard about after the fact, then by Storm he continues as a larger-than-life figure for his siblings, even after death.

 

I think this chapter has the introduction of Satin, though he isn't named. There's "a foppish youth in soiled satin" training and one of Conwy's recruits is said to be a boy whore. The only discrepancy is that Satin's whorehouse was in Oldtown not Gulltown, but what are the odds that two different satin-clad boy whores joined around the same time? Everything later points to Satin being an anomaly among the men. 

 

Thoren Smallwood comes off as an ass speaking to his boss that way, one of those characters I won't be mourning when his death comes.

 

Mormont points out that Dywen also once claimed to have see a bear that was some fifteen feet tall and says that he'd have a better time believing his sister's claim of having had a bear for a lover.

 

Tormund/Maege otp?

 

Some died from the Great Spring Sickness, one died of an STD, one died from drinking a cup of wildfire thinking that it would turn him into a dragon, one died in battle, etc.

 

I'd say that debunks the idea that Targs are immune to common diseases, not only were three of them knocked out in some spring plague, but a pox from a whore sounds about as commonplace as it gets, the kind of malady any lowborn wastrel could die of. There's a discrepancy here with the World Book, btw. Jeor says that King Aerys I, Aemon's childless uncle, married his sister, but the World Book family tree says his wife was named Aelinor Penrose. I guess Martin would explain the retcon by saying Mormont was an unreliable source, but he seems pretty knowledgeable about the rest of the Targ history here. 

 

They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You’ll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms.

 

I thought the princess line was a weird choice of words since there's a shortage of princesses around, and a Robb/Arrianne match was never very likely.

[nodorothyparker]

I guess Martin would explain the retcon by saying Mormont was an unreliable source, but he seems pretty knowledgeable about the rest of the Targ history here.

 

Martin pretty much already did this after some fans pointed out discrepancies between the series and the World Book, saying that it was true as far as the maesters who wrote it believed it to be true.  The cynic in me saw it as a nice little out for him should he get anything else wrong or need to change some other detail along the way.

 

I continue to love how utterly no nonsense Mormont is in this chapter about their chances of success both in their mission and of the likelihood of getting any of the various factions in the south to take their pleas seriously.  He has a bit of an information dump here, first with the makeup of Renly's camp, which we haven't seen yet, and then with some of the Targaryen backstory, which directed at Jon feels like a huge amount of foreshadowing if you're a proponent of R+L=J with all the Aamon-Jon parallels.

 

I also like Noye's observations about the Baratheon brothers.  The fact that he says Robert was never the same after he became king rings true with what we've already guessed from seeing him in GOT.  Comparing Stannis to iron that will break rather than bend and Renly to copper that's pretty to look at but otherwise mostly useless bears out with what we see of them as the story progresses.

 

I'm fascinated way more than I probably should be that we get brief mention of there being a Tarth at the Wall.  I don't recall ever getting more than a rare line or two about him on the few occasions he pops up, but being a Brienne fan I always can't help but wonder if that's going to be relevant later.  

[Lady S.]

I'm fascinated way more than I probably should be that we get brief mention of there being a Tarth at the Wall.  I don't recall ever getting more than a rare line or two about him on the few occasions he pops up, but being a Brienne fan I always can't help but wonder if that's going to be relevant later.  

Then I'm sorry to break it to you that I think Ser Endrew dies in the wildling attacks. 

[nodorothyparker]

Does he? I can't remember.

 

Edit:  You're right.  I just looked it up and he died in the battle at the Bridge of Skulls.  I completely forgot that.  That seems a wasted story placement then.

Edited October 21, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

I wondered why I didn't have a better recollection of Ser Endrew. That explains it.

I thought the pox line was Mormont just repeating a common rumor. I still don't think Targaryens get sick like the average person. They aren't immune from illnesses I just don't think they're as likely to get sick.

If I didn't know better I'd almost think that Mormont knows the truth about Jon's parentage but obviously that's impossible. Still the moment was odd and I thought it was weird that Jon felt so uncomfortable.

Weird too that Jon is likely going to end up as how Mormont described Robb. Jon will be the King who marries the princess and gets a happyish ending.

Yeah there's definitely a shortage of princesses for Robb to choose from. Shireen, Arianne, and Myrcella and later Asha. Margaery is already married.