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10 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I'm new to the Arrowverse, so forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I just finished the whole Invasion crossover arc, and I'm struggling with how everyone blames Barry for everything.  So, yeah, he's clueless and does stupid things, but so do pretty much everyone on all of these shows.  5 minutes after scolding him for Flashpoint, everyone hops in a time machine and goes and changes the past while we B-story with another dude who has mucked up the past.  But what gets me is how everyone seems to neglect that Thawne changed the past in the first place.  Why is the "correct" timeline the one where some douche from the future travels back in time and kills Barry's mom?  And Barry goes back in time to try to fix it, and he's the asshole?  There's a whole entire show devoted to people traipsing through time fixing the past, but fuck you, Barry?  I dunno, I don't get it.

The problem is that what was good for Barry (saving his parents) turned out to be disastrous for everyone else because of the changes to the timeline that affected them (Dante and Wally dying, Diggle's daughter being erased from existence and being retroactively replaced by a son, and worst of all, the creation of Alchemy and unleashing Savitar on everyone).  That's why everyone dumped on him even after he undid Flashpoint.  As Barry learned the hard way, when you play God as he was doing, there's always hell to pay in the end.

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I agree with you. I think what bothers me is just how righteously indignant everyone was about it, when Cisco's intentionally reading the future and trying to change it while opening dimensional breaches across all of existence, and half their buddies are now on a super-not-hero team with a literal time machine.

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Look how happy your lead actor is when he gets to do fun, happy stuff! Take note, showrunners. It doesn't have to be a musical every week, but nobody (including) wants moody Barry all the time. There have been happy moments this season, but the dark cloud of Alchemy/Savitar/Iris' death has been there too.

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Watching "Duet" again, I was thinking that Grant would make a great Fred Astaire in a biopic... then wikipedia tells me Astaire specifically forbade any such biopic in his will.   :-/

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Despite having to spin gold from writing straw, I thought Season 3 was great acting-wise for Grant. Besides 'regular Barry', he got to play Future Barry, Savitar, and Amnesia Bart; plus singing and dancing in the musical. It was a real showcase of his talents; he made each version distinct. Not to mention also having to act against himself with Future Barry and Savitar.

He got to do a side project with Tom C., but it's a shame he hasn't gotten to much else outside of Flash since he joined the show.

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We met Grant today at Ace Comic Con in Seattle.  Let’s just say I will never make fun of Stephen for the organization of his comic cons.  If Stephen and his friends can run smooth cons 6 times a year, there’s a no way a professional organization with half the Avengers on their roster should run such a shitshow.  They completely oversold autographs and photo ops to unattainable heights, so Grant was an hour late for his panel.  The panel was delightful, he is very well spoken and passionate, and Kevin Smith moderated so he was very comfortable.  The panel ended an hour and a half late because the organizers barely set time constraints, and because Tom Holland had the same issues with overbooking, Grant photo ops got pushed WAY back to a two hour delay almost.  When we went in, he was looking flustered and was getting yelled at to go faster, and then we got yelled at.  He posed with us, and pulled us both into him and took a lovey photo, then he took a moment despite the rush and apologized for rushing it.  We told him it was no problem at all, and that I have loved his work since Sebastian Smythe, which got a big smile.  As we were walking out, we walked into Kevin Smith’s back as he rushed towards the Avengers panel.  We called his name and he turned fullly around to greet us, and we quickly thanked him for coming and that we loved his moderating.  He looked genuinely touched and thanked us, then called us adorable.  Class acts, all of them, and made up for the clusterfuck of a program ?

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On 6/24/2018 at 7:24 AM, Wishing Well said:

We met Grant today at Ace Comic Con in Seattle.  Let’s just say I will never make fun of Stephen for the organization of his comic cons.  If Stephen and his friends can run smooth cons 6 times a year, there’s a no way a professional organization with half the Avengers on their roster should run such a shitshow.  They completely oversold autographs and photo ops to unattainable heights, so Grant was an hour late for his panel.  The panel was delightful, he is very well spoken and passionate, and Kevin Smith moderated so he was very comfortable.  The panel ended an hour and a half late because the organizers barely set time constraints, and because Tom Holland had the same issues with overbooking, Grant photo ops got pushed WAY back to a two hour delay almost.  When we went in, he was looking flustered and was getting yelled at to go faster, and then we got yelled at.  He posed with us, and pulled us both into him and took a lovey photo, then he took a moment despite the rush and apologized for rushing it.  We told him it was no problem at all, and that I have loved his work since Sebastian Smythe, which got a big smile.  As we were walking out, we walked into Kevin Smith’s back as he rushed towards the Avengers panel.  We called his name and he turned fullly around to greet us, and we quickly thanked him for coming and that we loved his moderating.  He looked genuinely touched and thanked us, then called us adorable.  Class acts, all of them, and made up for the clusterfuck of a program ?

People really underestimate the power of logistics and planning.

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This is more about Grant than Flash, so I'm putting this here since there aren't actor threads:

Grant was a guest on this sponsored web talk show:

 

It was apparently filmed this past May; and Grant knows the host because they worked together on Glee (he was the blonde Warbler). He talks a bit about previous acting roles; starting his career; filming The Flash, behind-the-scenes shenanigans, and stunts; his engagement; hiatus plans; friends & family; role models; books; etc.

I hope he does get to do another hiatus project soon.

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On one hand, 'Duh, Barry! Read the future article!', but on the other hand, he has "vanished in a crisis" every season so far (and returned), so I can see Barry not being too worried that headline. Although, it still might have been a good idea to try and look into the events surrounding that day and get info to prepare.

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Well, for the record, I never wanted a "comic accurate" suit - which would essentially be a bodystocking or something approximating that look (like the 1990 suit), which would hard to impossible to pull off for various reasons.

The head-to-toe red works well in the 2D medium of comics, but for a live-action TV show, there are way more factors to consider.

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3 hours ago, Trini said:

Congratulations!

Recently rewatched clips from Barry/Grant's first appearance in the Arrow episode "The Scientist" in 2013 and he was soooooooo young, it's crazy. He hadn't trained and worked out yet and was very skinny and boyish. Yeah at the time it seemed ridiculous that that Barry could be with a woman like Iris/Candace Patton when she had an actual man like Eddie Thawne. I don't blame people thinking he was a better fit for either Felicity or Caitlin and later Patty and Kara. Now though Grant has matured that he and Iris make total sense. I believe him as her husband just as I believe him acting as father to a woman played by someone six years older.

Edited by VCRTracking
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3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Congratulations!

Recently rewatched clips from Barry/Grant's first appearance in the Arrow episode "The Scientist" in 2013 and he was soooooooo young, it's crazy. He hadn't trained and worked out yet and was very skinny and boyish. Yeah at the time it seemed ridiculous that that Barry could be with a woman like Iris/Candace Patton when she had an actual man like Eddie Thawne. I don't blame people thinking he was a better fit for either Felicity or Caitlin and later Patty and Kara. Now though Grant has matured that he and Iris make total sense. I believe him as her husband just as I believe him acting as father to a woman played by someone six years older.

Man, it's surprising to me to think that, when Barry Allen first appeared on the show, both him and Grant were around the age of 23/24. He was such a young guy, especially knowing that I was first introduced to Grant back in 2011, when he was barely 21. Both Grant and Barry seemed to have matured quite nicely. So congrats to Grant and LA! 

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From the Relationships thread:

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The least I say about Barry the better. He barely feels like he's the main character anymore. He has no story. 

When was the last time we saw him at his day job??

I think Barry dealing with sudden fatherhood and considering his legacy are supposed to be his story for this season. However, except for a few episodes in the first half, it's been superficial, if not absent.

I thought they were going somewhere with both Barry and Cicada having daughters (because the 'Big Bads' work better when there's a personal connection to Barry), but they haven't done much with that either.*

Maybe they'll pull it together when Eobard Thawne is revealed, but we're already two-thirds into the season.


*[Aside: Still can't believe they haven't gone back to Grace after all the stuff we learned about her and Cicada in 5.12. I don't understand this writers room.]

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45 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think Barry dealing with sudden fatherhood and considering his legacy are supposed to be his story for this season. However, except for a few episodes in the first half, it's been superficial, if not absent.

I forgot to mention that it is also disappointing because Barry has a history with two father figures (or even 3 if you count Eobard), so there's lots of stuff to draw from.

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1 hour ago, Trini said:

From the Relationships thread:

When was the last time we saw him at his day job??

I think Barry dealing with sudden fatherhood and considering his legacy are supposed to be his story for this season. However, except for a few episodes in the first half, it's been superficial, if not absent.

I thought they were going somewhere with both Barry and Cicada having daughters (because the 'Big Bads' work better when there's a personal connection to Barry), but they haven't done much with that either.*

Maybe they'll pull it together when Eobard Thawne is revealed, but we're already two-thirds into the season.


*[Aside: Still can't believe they haven't gone back to Grace after all the stuff we learned about her and Cicada in 5.12. I don't understand this writers room.]

Yes! Barry has felt sort of rudderless this season.

Past seasons have been about Barry's journey and, other than defeating Cicada, Barry's direction and motivation seem lost this go around. And while I'm all about characters like, say Iris, being given autonomy and having their own storylines, it almost feels like they're moving towards more of a broader ensemble show (which I guess is fine and, if they are, I would assume it's because it's a lot of show for a twenty-something to carry and that's understandable), but they haven't quite figured out the balance and it's coming out muddled. 

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

I forgot to mention that it is also disappointing because Barry has a history with two father figures (or even 3 if you count Eobard), so there's lots of stuff to draw from.

Taking this back to the relationship thread. 

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Other than Nora, my main issue with Barry this season is that the show has barely allowed him to acknowledge or have a reaction to knowing that he might be leaving Iris and Nora in "five years." I would have expected that Barry and Iris would have their intimate couch chats talking about their fears, reaffirming their love for each other and their determination to do everything they can to stop Barry from disappearing. My plan would be to figure how to give Thawne the cure when he does show up if I couldn't come up with a way to track him down.

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I just realized, that with Nora, now Barry has seen every member of his family die* in front of him! 😭  If they do the Tornado Twins, I hope Don(?) will be okay!

*(or "die" or almost die)

Edited by Trini
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I guess the best place to vent this more vociferously and completely is here.  I am ANGRY at how TPTB have treated Barry w.r.t. Crisis.

The Crisis storyline originally centered around Barry.  Look at the text of the original article: 

FLASH MISSING
VANISHES IN CRISIS

by Iris West-Allen
Thursday, April 25, 2024

After an extreme street battle with the Reverse-Flash, our city's very own Scarlet Speedster disappeared in an explosion of light. The cause of the fight is currently unknown. According to witnesses, The Flash, with help from Starling City's Green Arrow, The Atom, and Hawkgirl, began fighting the Reverse-Flash around midnight last night. The sky took on a deep crimson color as the ensuing battle created the most destruction this city has seen since The Flash first arrived in Central City.

Several trucks were caught in the fray, spilling their contents into the street. Power outages swept nearly twenty city block, between 16th street and Adams Avenue. Five of those blocks still remain without power. All of the buildings in the area were evacuated by the CCPD, with help from The Atom.

According to reports, as The Flash and Reverse-Flash battled with each other between two overturned tanker trucks, the lightning emanating from the speedsters threatened to ignite spilled oil leaking from one of the trucks.

The smoke from the truck's engine made it difficult to see, but it appeared at one point they were having a very heated conversation before continuing the fight. Then, suddenly, The Flash sped after Reverse-Flash and the two vanished leaving The Atom, Green Arrow and Hawkgirl behind.

An eyewitness who watched the battle from her apartment building before being evacuated said, "It was hard to see, but The Flash and Reverse-Flash were zipping up and down M-- Avenue and then there was a whole bunch of lightning, and then nothing. It was weird."

Other witnesses describe a similar phenomenon: a blinding light followed by darkness as the sky returned to black. And as the --- reverted, it took only a moment to realize The Flash and the Reverse-Flash were gone without a trace.

Central City Police Chief, Joe West gave a press conference in the wee hours of the morning stating, "We don't have many details now. What we do know tonight is Central City's greatest protector vanished in a flash. I only hope he returns just as quickly." A sentiment shared by all who call this great city home.

But now, with how it actually played out, they only had Barry Allen in name only associated with Crisis in reality.  They gave all of the emotional weight to Oliver.  Why can't Oliver EVER stand on his own with his own canon?  Why does most of his run on his show consist of him RIPPING OFF other more A-list comic characters (first Batman, now Flash with Crisis and even GL's Hal Jordan Spectre storyline??!?!)?

But no.  The storyline that has literally been the backbone of The Flash for years gets handed off to Oliver and we get this emotionally hollowed out Crisis on The Flash where Barry's connection to it is completely nullified.

I realize the text of the article has changed over time - especially when Nora came back but the focus was still on The Flash and Central City.  It only changed the date when SA quit Arrow.

I submit this is why Crisis hasn't felt "right" in terms of emotional weight.

And I'm very sad for how this storyline now gutted a lot of Flash mythology.  So - when do RF and Barry fight, ending in RF going back in time to kill Nora, with Barry following him? That's literally Barry's Origin AND Disappearance story right there!  Crisis was supposed to be that and now it's gone.

I'm just pissed.

No one is saying Oliver shouldn't get a great sendoff for him to be the BDHero, but it shouldn't have been with a Crisis storyline.  They gutted the Flash for it and I think Flash fans have every right to be angry about that.

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I really wish the Flashtime talk between the two Barry's was from the perspective of the onlookers, at least for a few seconds, kinda like this: 

Edited by adora721
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12 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I really wish the Flashtime talk between the two Barry's was from the perspective of the onlookers, at least for a few seconds, kinda like this: 

I wanted something like this when Nora was here.

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1 hour ago, jmonique said:

Which I get. But what I'm saying is, this HUGE crossover has been teased for years. And now we've ended up with just the six paragons (including a rando we just met), Lex and Oliver at the end, when there's no real reason why the very powerful Pariah couldn't have sent all 18 people on the ship out to the Vanishing Point. It just feels like contrived conflict, much like saddling us with Lex for at least another episode, instead of Kingdom Come Superman.

Regarding the bolded, I don't think so. Berlanti and company didn't know that they would have five shows and leads to do their version of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Because this is their version. I quickly looked it up to see how it differs from the source material.

And maybe I'm missing something, but the Crisis we've seen since the pilot--could that be a different Crisis? Because

I didn't see any mention of Reverse Flash and Flash fighting in Crisis that led to Barry's death.

I think they just decided to do the cross over we're getting now after these successful shows and started working on it last year.

Either way, with everything that happened last night,

the finale of last season's

Arrow makes NO BLOODY SENSE, since that was 40 years into the future and Felicity presumably is being taken to Oliver?

It's all so very fucked up, unless

it's all going to be reversed and reset.

I just don't know.

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6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And maybe I'm missing something, but the Crisis we've seen since the pilot--could that be a different Crisis?

Well, it's going to be a different Crisis anyway, after this one. They may still fulfill the newspaper prophecy but differently.

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2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And maybe I'm missing something, but the Crisis we've seen since the pilot--could that be a different Crisis?

I don't think it can. The moment that newspaper date changed there was no doubt the Crisis they have been teasing since season 1 was supposed to be Crisis on Infinite Earths. You are right that

Spoiler

the Reverse Flash has nothing to do with how Barry vanishes in the source material. In the Crisis on Infinite Earths comics Barry dies the exact same way Earth-90 Flash died on the show, on a treadmill trying to disable the antimatter cannon.

It's possible that Reverse Flash will make his appearance in the January portion of the crossover to tie up that storyline. I don't know if it will feel satisfying though. That's more of a series finale story. Coming full circle.

I would have been fine with that being a different Crisis. It sadly looks like the writers felt like they had to build up to Crisis on Infinite Earths to pay homage to the source material and what they have been teasing since season 1 but since Barry was never going to die and the meat of the story happened on another show ( a show that is ending ) they half-assed it. They gave us Flash fans Crisis without really giving us Crisis. It's likely they were always going to do a bad job but the fact that the date was moved up to line up with Arrow's series finale didn't help.

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3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Regarding the bolded, I don't think so. Berlanti and company didn't know that they would have five shows and leads to do their version of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Because this is their version. I quickly looked it up to see how it differs from the source material.

And maybe I'm missing something, but the Crisis we've seen since the pilot--could that be a different Crisis? Because

  Reveal spoiler

I didn't see any mention of Reverse Flash and Flash fighting in Crisis that led to Barry's death.

I think they just decided to do the cross over we're getting now after these successful shows and started working on it last year.

Either way, with everything that happened last night,

  Reveal spoiler

the finale of last season's

Arrow makes NO BLOODY SENSE, since that was 40 years into the future and Felicity presumably is being taken to Oliver?

It's all so very fucked up, unless

  Reveal spoiler

it's all going to be reversed and reset.

I just don't know.

The Crisis that we have gotten was supposed to be the culmination of the future news article that The Flash has been teasing since The Flash Pilot episode.  That's 5 years.

THAT article was about RF and Flash and was tied directly to The Flash's Origin Story being directly tied to his disappearance during Crisis.  That Crisis article also references multiple heroes, including Oliver, surviving Crisis.  The Flash is the only one who was supposed to die.  According to that article.  Even when the name changed on the article with the Savitar storyline, it was still all about Barry and RF and the events that led to RF deciding to go back in time to kill Nora and Barry chasing him back and thus disappearing, RF getting trapped in the past and him creating the circumstances for Barry to become The Flash... it's part of the paradoxes that The Flash comics always explore.

The Crisis that we have gotten today in 2019 doesn't look anything like that, but TPTB HAVE tied it directly to the future newspaper article about Barry disappearing. That's why after Nora died, the date on the article changed and then the Monitor showed up to push even more that yes, this Crisis is the same one teased on the Flash (hell, that The Flash built most of its story around in 5 seasons) was happening...

But it's not happening at all the way it was built up to happen.

Part of the reason this Crisis feels so rushed and so weird emotionally is because TPTB knew they were mucking stuff up by deciding to use this as Oliver's swan song, but they spent FIVE YEARS building this on The Flash and couldn't just not follow through with The Flash, so we ended up with this crappy version that failed both fandoms.  It's like having a room with two focal points - it doesn't work.  

I am beginning to get Game of Thrones vibes as a Flash fan.  Worse than that - because I binged that show in 5 weeks and caught up to watch the finale with the world.  So I wasn't as pissed as longtime fans of that show were.  Now I really feel their pain.  Well... 5 years of it, at least.

I actually believe GGustin was impacted by this too - he seemed rather flat in his Crisis scenes... like none of it mattered.  He just felt hollow to me.

Edited by phoenics
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13 hours ago, phoenics said:

The Crisis that we have gotten was supposed to be the culmination of the future news article that The Flash has been teasing since The Flash Pilot episode.  That's 5 years.

Oh, I know about that. I'm just saying that Guggenheim, Berlanti and whoever, decided to change that Crisis in the article to Crisis on Infinite Earths, instead of what was in the pilot and the ever changing article. Because Reverse Flash and Flash fighting didn't cause Barry's disappearance. It's in the source material and shown in Part III of the crossover, that Barry literally disintegrated on that treadmill. Of course the dickwads changed it to Earth-90's Barry. But that wasn't a disappearance like what happened with Wally into the Speed Force. That's disappearing. But, I digress. It's all moot now. It's just a jumbled, fucked up mess. And clearly I've been thinking too much about it because I ended up dreaming about Grant as Barry and it was a mishmash of his upcoming death or Iris's, since

one panel I read in the source material, where Barry shows up to ask Bats for help, but doesn't know where he is as he's disintegrating, is calling for Iris, who is already dead(?)

.

I thought I had this series, but I don't. And now I'm totally getting it.

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Yes - clearly MG and Berlanti and co changed it.  I wonder though if it was done with or without The Flash team's blessing - or if it was forced on them.

Besides the obvious plot hole this change (to accommodate Oliver and give him a send off) created and the shafting it's given Flash fans, there are two other major plotholes and reasons why this change is just stupid.

1) Nora came back from the past and the show spent a TON of time telling us that this change was impossible.  That it was a fixed point and couldn't be changed.  Ever.  And Nora died without any of it changing.  The ONLY thing that changed was the date.  It got moved up.

2) Barry saw infinite futures where the only way everyone lived was if HE personally died saving them.  HIM.  Not another version of him from another earth.  Or are we supposed to believe that Jay Garrick from ANOTHER EARTH only created his little machine thingee to probe Earth-1 possibilities for saving the multiverse?  No - that's stupid.  He said he was rigging this thing to look across all the multiverse and plot out all of the possible outcomes.  Hence, Barry not seeing E-90 Barry Allen dying to save the multiverse is a PLOT HOLE.

They threw away 5+ years of buildup for this mess.

This is Game of Thrones bad.

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The Fastest Man Alive; The Streak; The Scarlet Speedster; now we can add Paragon of Love to Barry Allen's list of titles!

It's cute, and I think it fits; but maybe Paragon of Heart might have been a tad less cheesy.

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It would have been easy for TPTB to keep the newspaper Crisis a separate event. Instead they combined Crisis on Infinite Earths and what was supposed to be the show series finale into one. As a result, they cheated us out of both stories.

I understand not wanting Barry to die on that treadmill when the show is not ending and you are not planning on firing GG before it's over but why make the newspaper event Crisis on Infinite Earths? The only hint at Crisis on Infinite Earths is the red skies.

If they wanted Barry to come close to meeting his comic canon fate they should have forgotten about that newspaper altogether. No date change. Just forget about it and have the Monitor come to tell Barry that he's supposed to sacrifice himself during an upcoming Crisis.

From my understanding they used Nora time traveling* and Thawne being released as what caused Crisis to come earlier. Why not use them as the reason why there's a Crisis in the first place?

Keeping the two events separated wouldn't have erased the bad writing but it would have given the show a chance to save the newspaper Crisis for the series finale and center it around Barry. As for the other shows/characters, the names of the heroes inlvolved in the battle always change. And considering how many DC shows the network keeps adding to its line-up someone was always going to be around for it.

* One day we're going to talk about how unfair the Arrowverse is when it comes to time travel. Why does it always have negative consequences when it's Barry or his daughter that do it? It's really obnoxious.

I am upset about all of this. They gave us this watered down version of Crisis on Infinite Earths with a last second switcheroo and are probably going to cram the Flash and Reverse Flash battle into an episode of another show.

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On 12/15/2019 at 7:32 AM, Starry said:

From my understanding they used Nora time traveling* and Thawne being released as what caused Crisis to come earlier. Why not use them as the reason why there's a Crisis in the first place?

I don't think so; they still haven't explained why the date changed. If you watch The Flash, Nora's time ripples are the best guess, but that hasn't actually been expressly stated anywhere, and so far doesn't connect to anything going on in the COIE crossover.

Agreed about everything else, though.

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I've watched this show sense season 1, and I've loved it. Season 2 was great, and season 3 was okay. My problem is with the following seasons.

We began to see less and less of Barry, and more of other characters. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of the other characters in this show. But at the end of the day this is The Flash. I come here to watch Barry fighting the newest villains in Central City, not watch Iris get her latest scoop. Again I don't hate Iris, but she's not who I'm watching the show for.

You would think they would eventually re-focus everything on Barry, but they don't. Instead seasons 4 to 6 we have been progressively seeing less and less of him. I don't even feel like I'm watching the same show anymore. 

I just want to go back to the days of season 1-3 where I would look foward to every single Tuesday, now I'm just like "Oh... great, another episode of The Flash... yay.."

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This isn't a bad look. I wouldn't mind seeing the suit in a different color (for an alternate version of the Flash, perhaps).

 

Edited by Trini
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