Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[BitterApple]

So many lulz, WTFFF! Who was the chick in Babysitters Club that couldn't spell for shit? The Duggar kids probably resemble her as well:)

[shoregirl]

So many lulz, WTFFF! Who was the chick in Babysitters Club that couldn't spell for shit? The Duggar kids probably resemble her as well:)

Claudia I think.

[DangerousMinds]

So with cursive no longer taught in schools, will the next generation be printing their signature on personal checks, credit card receipts, etc?

Edited September 1, 2014 by DangerousMinds

[CarolMK]

Regarding the Bates liking the Duggars, I have wondered about this myself. It seems that at least at first, that TLC was looking for another large family to appear on the show who were "best friends with the Duggars" and the Bates took on that role...maybe for the money if not so much for the fame. The very first time the Bates came to stay with the Duggars was a total setup for the show, with both families playing paintball and going sky diving. I think one of the cameramen asked Zach Bates directly if he was interested in any of the Duggars girls, to which he replied that the families hadn't seen in each other in 8 or 9 years until that time. 

[mbutterfly]

So with cursive no longer taught in schools, will the next generation be printing their signature on personal checks, credit card receipts, etc?

And consider this: how will they read something written in cursive?

[Sew Sumi]

Good luck reading the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution! No wonder none of these fundies can accurately quote it!

[Micks Picks]

Oh the pity is that they in fact can't read cursive.  I've seen many kids amazed that I could do it, and were totally flummoxed reading it.  That part of the joy of seeing and understanding the original documents is gone for younger kids.  And yes, instead of signing your name, you will be printing your name.  But shortly after that, none of that will be necessary.  You do on-line transactions and use your phone for point of service.  I guess we have to catch up. Still it is a shame to read documents complete with the funny spellings we are not accustomed to.

[GEML]

A lot of public schools do teach cursive long enough for children to read it. I've not come across too many twenty something's that can't read it, although they can't write with it more than a rather shaky signature.

If anything, most homeschoolers I know have significantly better cursive writing as many still practice a more classicly traditional curriculum. Once again, I wouldn't use the Duggars as an example to say ANYTHING about the future of anyone except the Duggars.

[mbutterfly]

A lot of public schools do teach cursive long enough for children to read it. I've not come across too many twenty something's that can't read it, although they can't write with it more than a rather shaky signature.

If anything, most homeschoolers I know have significantly better cursive writing as many still practice a more classicly traditional curriculum. Once again, I wouldn't use the Duggars as an example to say ANYTHING about the future of anyone except the Duggars.

I agree. For the most part it just isn't a graded subject in public school. Generally it is taught enough for children to read it. What is so strange to me about the Duggars is that you would think they would embrace a classically traditional curriculum for elementary children. 

[GEML]

Exactly. It's perfect for the Gothard world that tells students that if you change grammar you are being a rebel. And it's a time consuming process that could make a lot of less than well educated families feel as though they were educating their children in something superior by focusing on it. Which leads me to wonder if perhaps JB or Michelle doesn't have very good handwriting, and thus they sort of skipped over it. I know at least some of the Gothard approved workbooks do stress it.

[RazzleberryPie]

The families I know who homeschool for religious reasons are very, very, into the traditional "Reading, Writing, Arithmetic" way of learning, and they focus a lot on handwriting. I do think this is partially because penmanship is one of the "easier" subjects for non-professional educators to teach vs. science or foreign language. If the Duggar kids have bad handwriting, it's because they're homefoolin' teacher Ms. Jessa is too busy curling her hair and schellacking on lipgloss for her selfies.

[WTFFF]

Michelle seems pretty invested in her kids' penmanship - it's the only thing we've seen her "teach" anyone in the last ten years.  Of course, her teaching method was to isolate Hannie in the alcove off the boys' bedroom and leave her there to write thank you notes. 

 

I don't think Kelly much likes the Duggars - she always seemed pretty consistently annoyed by their lateness and constant impositions.  She also seemed to not really want the home extension - presumably because she knew she'd be lving in a construction zone long after the Duggars got bored and went home.  Gil seems to genuinely like JimBob - I think he's annoyed by the Duggar Time but not really bothered.  He seems pretty easygoing in general.  The only Bates/Duggar friendship that seems all that strong is Carlin and Joy-Anna.  Now, if those two started courting, I might start giving a fuck about this show again. 

[DangerousMinds]

Maybe they could do something more interesting than courting! Imagine that.

[BitterApple]

I don't blame Kelly for not being thrilled with the home extension. IMO, that was all about leverage. Anytime the Duggars want to show up at their place or need them for filming the Bateses are pretty much obligated to say yes, because they received a major home upgrade courtesy of Boob's connections. If Boob is about anything, it's control. Most women I know, including myself, are very particular about their homes. I can't imagine someone making drastic structural and design changes to my house without my input. It would really piss me off.

 

Also, from a financial perspective that addition probably came with a hefty increase in their property taxes. I remember reading that many of the families featured on Extreme Home Makeover ended up losing their homes because the renovations bumped up the assessment and they couldn't afford the taxes.

[trimthatfat]

Gil seems to genuinely like JimBob - I think he's annoyed by the Duggar Time but not really bothered.  He seems pretty easygoing in general.  The only Bates/Duggar friendship that seems all that strong is Carlin and Joy-Anna.

 

 I did find it interesting when the Duggar show insinuated that the older girls are close friends with the older Bates' girls (Erin, mainly). I imagine that they don't mind talking and hanging out when the occasion arises, but I don't think they're bffs.

 

Zahdii, even the older kids had a very child-like script. I know even public schools don't teach cursive anymore, but the Duggar kids' signatures looked like they came from a small child just learning to print.

 

Schools aren't teaching cursive anymore?! Wow! I loved cursive lessons in elementary school and still write in cursive pretty often with my work notes.

[JessDVD]

Re: cursive, I don't know what the local public schools are doing but the local private/Christian school actually has kids starting on cursive. They give parents this article that goes on about how it's more natural for kids to do curves than straight lines. My anecdotal experience is that my oldest had a terrible time with G, C, and forget about S but was really good at I and T when she was learning to write, but maybe she's just the exception.

[Libby96]

It might not be nationwide, but in my neck of the woods cursive is not in the official curriculum any more. I think it's kind of sad, but I can understand with the vast amount of material to cover and the amount of assessments given.

[andromeda331]

I did find it interesting when the Duggar show insinuated that the older girls are close friends with the older Bates' girls (Erin, mainly).

 

 

So do I mostly because when you seem them to together, they don't act like close friends. Like when the one where Erin told them she was engaged. The reaction wasn't really a reaction to learning your close friend is engaged. They looked like people you have to put up with. Why I don't know because Michelle and Kelly don't seem to like each other. I'm not sure if JimBob and Gil are friends either. I do think they like to compete with each other. I'm still convinced the only reason Jill and Jessa were allowed to court was because JimBob saw how much attention the Bates were getting with all their courtships, weddings and babies. He can't stand attention not being on him and his family.

[Micks Picks]

At least among the public school kids I know, cursive is not taught.  They can't read it either, although I think with a little effort they could make it out.  When I was little we called it printing or writing.  I don't know why we didn't glam it up by using "cursive".

[lottiedottie]

My kids were taught cursive (12 and 9 years old). They go to a Montessori school, though. I'm not sure what the public schools around here do. Learning cursive helped cure my 9 year old of his mirror writing and other issues with printing. I'm sure he would have eventually gotten his printing correct if he hadn't learned cursive, but learning cursive definitely helped him progress faster.

 

 

I did find it interesting when the Duggar show insinuated that the older girls are close friends with the older Bates' girls (Erin, mainly). I imagine that they don't mind talking and hanging out when the occasion arises, but I don't think they're bffs.

I bet they wouldn't even be allowed to have real friendships, even with people like the Bates girls. Never mind the fact that since they aren't allowed to develop socially, they wouldn't even know how to act like a friend. They only know how to take care of babies and pack for trips and plaster smiles on their faces.

[RazzleberryPie]

I don't think Kelly appreciated the Duggars overtaking and ransacking her home, Howler children running loose, everyone older than the Lost Girls having some degree of smugness (except maybe Jana), throwing everything off schedule from homeschooling to eating to cleaning. She has to take time away from her children to entertain Michelle. I wouldn't like to have to explain all Jimbob's innuendos to my children, or to have Howler behavior rub off on my children.

 

Gil seems to go with the flow and be very welcoming. Kelly is also a genuinely warm person who takes it in stride, but I can see some slight irritation from Michelle's competitiveness and passive aggressiveness. I don't think the Bates are trying to compete with or one up anyone, and when you feel like you're forced to interact with people who make every second a competition, it takes a whole lot of Jesus to stay calm and friendly.

[RazzleberryPie]

The difference I see between Anna and Michelle is that I don't think Anna's body will be able to tolerate that many pregnancies. Both Michelle and Kelly Bates have stocky, sturdy frames whereas Anna is naturally petite. I fear if she keeps having babies in quick succession, something could go seriously wrong during one of the deliveries.

From the looks of that immodest (not really) cheerleading pic of Michelle, she was pretty small, too, and I think Kelly was probably small like her daughters. Anna is/was about the same size, IMO. I don't think she's petite or teensy, like Jana, Jessa, or Erin.

[Libby96]

Do the Bates get some sort of stipend when they appear in the Duggar's show? I certainly hope so, because having 19 kids and planning your daughter's wedding is more than enough to deal with. Never mind another 20 or so people appearing on your doorstep a couple of days before. It literally makes me feel tense thinking about it.

[BitterApple]

Do the Bates get some sort of stipend when they appear in the Duggar's show? I certainly hope so, because having 19 kids and planning your daughter's wedding is more than enough to deal with. Never mind another 20 or so people appearing on your doorstep a couple of days before. It literally makes me feel tense thinking about it.

I'm not sure, but I would assume so. I do know that TLC picks up the tabs for outings and restaurants etc. There was an epi where the Duggars and Bateses went out for dinner and Gil told his kids they didn't have to order water, they could get a soda if they wanted. Way back Gil had said that on the rare occasions they eat out, they don't order any drinks besides water because it would add another $40-50 to the tab. So I assumed he had a change of heart because the TLC sugar daddies were paying for the meal.

[JessDVD]

I'm 95% positive that when it says "Thanks to ______" at the end of the show, that means "These people were compensated for their appearance on the show". Gil & Kelly always get a Thanks to, so I would assume they're getting paid as well. They deserve double for putting up with JB & M.

[ginger90]

They should be paid. Considering a Duggar child climbed up on top of their refrigerator, who knows what else has gone on.

[RazzleberryPie]

Just seeing that $2500 (or close to it) Aldi bill when the Duggars and the bluegrass family (they looked WEIRD) showed up to fix the Bates laundry room, makes me hope TLC picked up the tab for all of that. That's a major expense for a few days.

[Boton]

 

Oh the pity is that they in fact can't read cursive.  I've seen many kids amazed that I could do it, and were totally flummoxed reading it.  That part of the joy of seeing and understanding the original documents is gone for younger kids.  And yes, instead of signing your name, you will be printing your name.

 

I had a student (college age) tell me that she didn't have a signature, meaning that she didn't know cursive.  I told her she needed to sort that shit out before she got her first paycheck that she wanted to endorse.  (I might have been more diplomatic than that.)

 

I also once figured out a math problem longhand in front of my class, then was kind of ashamed and apologized that I still borrow and carry physically in the problem instead of in my head.  Turns out the class was amazed that I could do math longhand at all.

 

Topic?  Yeah, I don't think this show should be taken as representative of anything about homeschooling in general at all.  It is representative only of the Duggars' twisted believe that too much outside knowledge sends you directly to hell.

[Literata]

Stopped by the Bateses' website to see what's new and exciting. Not much, but I took another look at the family photo; I wonder if a Bates has to be engaged to get his/her significant other some photo time. If so, Michael appears to possibly be engaged. 

 

On another note: That is a seriously good-looking family. Some of the Duggars are attractive, but IMO, all the Bateses are cute.

 

http://thebatesfamily.com/

Edited September 5, 2014 by Literata

[Almost 3000]

Kelly Bates pretty much said Michael's relationship was an engagement but they couldn't announce it because her guy worked at Gothard headquarters and they couldn't be in a relationship while there. I guess his situation is considered something like an internship because really how could they restrict that part of his life it was a real job...

[Literata]

Speaking of Michael, I've always been surprised that that's her actual name. Naming a female baby a traditionally male name seems as if it would be something Gothard would frown upon.

[Portia]

Speaking of Michael, I've always been surprised that that's her actual name. Naming a female baby a traditionally male name seems as if it would be something Gothard would frown upon.

There's a female Michal in the Bible, but it has a different spelling. 

[joanofarch4]

In watching more than a week's worth of "19 Kids" reruns (heaven help me), I've noted a few occasions in which the Duggars said something snarky about the Bates family in their THs after a reunion; can't recall specific examples, but I think they once accused them of infecting them with illness and, on another, one of the Duggar boys complained about how loud they were (pot, meet kettle)?  I remember thinking, "Nice!" and wondered how much the Bates family appreciated hearing that on TV.  I think initially it was hoped -- if not planned -- that many Duggar children would marry many Bates children, as they acted like one big happy family and companionable in-laws already, but it doesn't look like that was meant to be, for whatever reason.  I hope there wasn't jealousy about their brief show?  Love the Bateses!

[Fuzzysox]

There will never be a Bates/Duggar wedding Kelly aims higher for her kids. 

[zenme]

I always had a theory that Lawson and Jessa were interested in each other, and that Jim Bob denied a courtship.  Jessa was always really excited when learning they would be convening with the Bateses  I've read rumors on another site that Lawson was leaning towards fundie-lite, so perhaps Jim Bob denied a courtship, as opposed to a courtship with Ben, who drinks the Duggar kool-aid. 

[CarolMK]

For whatever reason, I don't think Jim Bob thinks that any of the Bates are good enough for his family. Something about the way the Duggars treat the Bates, it's almost as if they feel they're inferior to them. Michelle and Jim Bob have both done this to Kelly and Gil. Probably one reason is that the Bates offspring seem to be able to at least think for themselves somewhat, and the Duggars parents don't want anybody in their family that they don't have control over.

[truthtalk2014]

The Bates family pic is great.  Wow!  I'm so happy they abandoned that horrible freaking amish train wreck high hair that most of the girls were wearing when I first saw them.  Erin was so beautiful at her wedding and I was so happy that she did a pink bedroom!  That shows she has some freaking choice!  Go Erin!

 

They are seriously a much more stylish group than J'Chelle Boob.  JC should take some hair tips from Kelly.  And I agree that they seem to think they are superior to the Bates.  

 

If I were Kelly, I would want to snatch a knot in a lot of those children while they were staying at my house.  I hope they got a nice compensation.  Otherwise, OMG- I would kill someone. 

[alt0233]

Speaking of Michael, I've always been surprised that that's her actual name. Naming a female baby a traditionally male name seems as if it would be something Gothard would frown upon.

 

If I remember correctly, her name was originally Michaela, but they later found out that there was a Michaela whose reputation they didn't want to emulate, so they dropped the a. Kelly Bates answered a comment asking about it in her blog at some point, but I can't find it anymore.

 

Edit: Found it!  I was only part right. http://thebatesfamily.com/freedom-sure-aint-free/

 

It is legally spelled Michael. We first named her Michal (after David’s wife). Sadly, I had never read through my Bible. Once I discovered the fate of Michal (She was bitter and barren), I wanted to change her name. Since she was under a year old, we could legally change the spelling by a letter, so we added an “a”…going with the traditional name “Michael” which has a beautiful meaning. I wasn’t creative enough to know to add “y’s” to make a name appear feminine, so later on Christmas cards, I started writing “Michaella,” so people would know she was a girl. As she got older, she preferred to go by plain “Michael” (Her legal name). Her siblings often call her “Michy.” (pronounced “Micky”). Love, Kelly

Edited September 9, 2014 by alt0233

[WTFFF]

It's still weird to me that hardcore fundies would admit to not having actually read the Bible.  I mean, presumably she has now, but they've been fundie for a long time.  Wasn't Kelly a pastor's kid?  Or am I thinking of someone else? 

That said, I did like how they chose Michael because it means "who is like the Lord" and Kelly was saying it fits because when you ask the kids for an example of a good Christian, Michaella is the first person a lot of them will say.  I do like how Kelly seems genuinely happy for her kids when they achieve things or are complimented.  Michelle always seems to quietly seethe at not having all eyes on her.

Michelle seems a little condescending towards the Bateses to me, but...she seems a little condescending towards most people.

[GEML]

One of the worst things about Gothardism, in my opinion, is that he doesn't really want you reading the Bible. He wants you to know this verse and that verse, and then he gives an interpretation of them that is not only completely out of context or reads things into the verse that aren't there, but are oftentimes completely contradicted by the longer passage.

[andromeda331]

It's still weird to me that hardcore fundies would admit to not having actually read the Bible.  I mean, presumably she has now, but they've been fundie for a long time.  Wasn't Kelly a pastor's kid?  Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

 

Yes she was. She says it on the blog under the section about the family so it seems odd that she wouldn't know until after naming her daughter, that Michal was a bad person in the Bible. Pastors, reverends, etc they all seem pretty good at pointing out who the bad people are in the Bible. But this could all the result of after she and her husband found Gothard. A woman in the Bible who was barren? Obviously, she had to be bad. The fact she was bitter, and I think in of her posts she mentions that Michal criticized her husband. Clearly Michal is evil. 

 

That said, I did like how they chose Michael because it means "who is like the Lord" and Kelly was saying it fits because when you ask the kids for an example of a good Christian, Michaella is the first person a lot of them will say.

 

 

 

What's interesting is Michael's middle name is Christian. So she's Michael Christian. 

[lottiedottie]

One of the worst things about Gothardism, in my opinion, is that he doesn't really want you reading the Bible. He wants you to know this verse and that verse, and then he gives an interpretation of them that is not only completely out of context or reads things into the verse that aren't there, but are oftentimes completely contradicted by the longer passage.

Sounds suspiciously cult-like!

[Fuzzysox]

Someone posted this on a FB page for Jessa that ended up being fake. It's about growing up in the Gothard cult. Insightful reading.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/micah-j-murray/growing-up-in-bill-gothar_b_5228166.html

[GEML]

There's been a lot of discussion in evangelical land about whether of not Gothard and his followers are a cult or not. It's been fought out for at least 30 years and in Baptist circles in particular, can be quite contentious.

[lucille66]

I completely agree with you. It's disturbing how Gothard takes the scriptures out of context just to get his point across, which makes all of his followers believe his teachings are truth, the "gospel". And if you don't follow his teachings verbatim, then some sort of calamity or trial will come into your life. Also, Gothard clumps every person together, with a cookie-cutter mentality.

One of the worst things about Gothardism, in my opinion, is that he doesn't really want you reading the Bible. He wants you to know this verse and that verse, and then he gives an interpretation of them that is not only completely out of context or reads things into the verse that aren't there, but are oftentimes completely contradicted by the longer passage.

[GEML]

If anyone really wants to know more about this (and it probably belongs in the Religion thread, and please feel free to move it) there is a good book on the subject called A MATTER OF BASIC PRINCIPLES: Bill Gothard & the Christian Life by Don Veinot, Joy Veinot and Ron Henzel.  It's published by Midwest Christian Outreach, with blurbs by people from Westminster Theological Seminary, Wheaton College, and Dallas Theological Seminary, which I just mention so people know this is the book about the internal debate within evangelicalism, not a secular book attacking from the outside.

[andromeda331]

I still can't figure out what draws people to Gothard. I mean its one thing to explore different religions but what makes people want to listen to him and only him. To follow all of his rules. I mean many of the people that came into it seem to come from normal backgrounds and yet chose to live a lifestyle so restrictive and submissive. What makes them want to do that or what about the life appeals to them? I might understand people might at first think and like the idea of living more simply, maybe wanting to stay home with your kids or maybe a little ego on the men's part to be the breadwinner and have their families think their the best. But you'd think after awhile they would come out of it and move on. I mean when you would think the mothers would reach a point where they need to stop having children because they have all they can handle, that they wouldn't want to turn their kids into submissive obedient kids with no education and no shot at a decent life. You would think the husbands get tired of living near the poverty level, full of stress trying to support his wife and so many kids and both tired of so many rules and restrictions that they would both realize the lifestyle is crazy and leave. 

[DangerousMinds]

The thing is - I don't even think many of Gothard's followers have ever studied other religions in depth. They seem to just have blindly accepted this (IMO) nonsense without any study or real theological knowledge about other religions. It's disturbing and makes them seem very ignorant.

[GEML]

I think two types of people follow him - one is the prodigal son type. That would be someone who fell off the path and perhaps realize they don't have the control to monitor themselves without some kind of outside accountability over them. We don't tend to see these families much because people who lack this control aren't going to be in leadership positions and thus not highly visible. But you could make an argument that this is Michelle.

The second type are those who fit the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal son, interestingly enough. The are people who have never really done anything wrong. They grew up in the same homes as the wild sibling but stayed on the straight and narrow. Why did the other sibling stray? It must be because the parent failed. So they look to someone like Gothard who promises that his followers will never have that happen.

This perfectly describes Jim Bob, his relationship to his father, his sister (and cousin Amy) and perhaps even some of his mother's guilt and why she stays.

[RazzleberryPie]

Most of the people I know who get involved this deep into fundamentalism were: 1) born into it, don't really know what they believe, but don't know anything else. They are content, so they tow the line, but never stop to think what that line is. A few might stop and think, but are then terrified of hell, so they tow the line as well. AKA Most of the Duggar children.

 

2) People who really had no religious upbringing, or a really negative upbringing, see all the smiling, well-behaved children, think that all these rules are how people of faith must live, because the don't stop to compare it to anything else. They're atoning for former bad things/sins, whether they're real or imagined. They're embraced and doted upon until they're fully ingrained. As long as nobody is pregnant (outside of marriage), pierced, in prison, on drugs, etc., the rules work. AKA Michelle

 

3) Control freaks, formerly religious or not, who need all those rules and regulations to feel validated or at least at peace, and what could be more validating than an interpretation of Scripture, direct from God, who justifies their control. Mostly men who need to thump a Bible to feel superior to women, minorities, homosexuals, or basically any shape or form of life/lifestyle that makes them feel insecure. AKA Jim Bob the Dork gets a cheerleader and has authority to bash anyone who disagrees with him and also micromanage his wife, children, take advantage of businesses, tell others how to dress and vote, etc.