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S02.E08: XVI

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Flint and Miranda prepare for the worst. Silver has his eyes opened. Eleanor discovers Max's secret. Vane makes his move.

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Ugh, Vane why doesn't he just die already? And I wish someone would take that dead animal off his head. What a horrible douchebag.

I wish someone would explain to me the appeal of Vane. To me he's like a nasty boil and I feel the show would be more interesting with him gone.

He reminds me of guys I've met who, 30 years later, still complain about some dumb bullshit his ex girlfriend did to him.

Edited by Neurochick
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Daymun, Vane is a BAMF. I love it when he makes Eleanor suffer. Mwahaha!

 

Buh-bye, Richard Guthrie. Sorry you had to die but i'm willing to sacrifice you in the service of making your daughter miserable.

 

I love that we got some backstory on Billy. I always felt like he didn't quite fit into the pirate world, nice to know how he came to be with them. Definitely some eye-sexing with him and Abigail. It's time Billy got some loving, if only to see him take his shirt off again. (Yes, I'm shallow, sue me.)

 

I think we all guessed that it was Thomas' father that Flint hunted down and murdered all those years ago. Ironic that that was what turned Ashe against all pirates. I wonder if his feelings will change any once he knows who did it and why.

 

Poor Jack, lamenting on the woes of women. LOL!

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Like I said before, please explain to me the appeal of Vane. He looks like he stinks. Though I'd probably like him better if he looked like john Silver.

I can't stand Eleanor though.

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The appeal of Vane, for me, is his straight forwardness. He's no nonesense. No BS, no games, no lies, no back-stabbing, no double-crossing. He says what he means and means what he says, something that can't be applied to many characters on this show.

 

He's a very dark, hardened man but still capable of feelings, dare I even say "loving" someone (as much as he can understand love). Although right now he seems to want to make Eleanor suffer as much as I want to see her suffer so that helps add to my liking him.

 

And, to be honest, I think ZM is one fine looking man. I'm the  opposite when it comes to Silve, I find him totally unattractive. I'm like, "Someone explain the appeal of him to me". LOL! He's too smarmy to me. And I HATE his hair. I'd kill to get a bottle of Dawn dishing washing detergent ahold of it because it looks so oily all the time. After that, maybe a weed eater.

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This episode was going along just fine.  Then we have to not only see the character of Vane doing the impersonation of Willard in Apocalypse Now but listen to that hilarious phony sounding voice.  Everytime I see or hear this character, it feels like an insult.  It takes the show down notches.  A badly written character played poorly.

 

The rest was solid from the crush on Billy to Max's handling of the situation to the wonderful portrayal of Silver.  But seriously can something be done about the Vane problem.  This show can be so much better than that kind of pandering.   It has wonderful characters such as Flint, Silver, Billy, Max, Jack, Anne, and even Eleanor.  Then it has this Vane character and it feels like the show is aware he is a repugnant joke but still can't control itself. 

Edited by dohe

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Well, that was just all kinds of fun.  Loved the ending.  I'm #TeamVane all the way.  I'm just delighted to learn that Vane more forward-looking than I had given him credit for.  I also liked the confirmation that he WAS a slave in his past (which probably explains the brand on his chest.)  

 

Yay Abigail for being honest with Flint & Mrs. Barlow about the peril they were walking into and for confirming to those of us who called it that, yes, it WAS Lord Hamilton's awful father than Flint had hunted and murdered. 

 

So, that WAS Vane & Co. who were lurking in the road at the very end of the last episode.  I love it.  And I'm not sorry at all to see Eleanor's Daddy Dearest left for the crows.  Never trusted him anyway.

 

But I'll be damned if I can figure out what Vane & Co. are doing hiding in the water off Charlestown, masquerading as  swamp grass.  More importantly, HOW DID  THEY GET THERE?  Didn't Jack say that Vane's ship (the one he took from Ned Low) was still in the bay?  if so -- how did he and his minions get to Charlestown?

 

My favorite line of the night was Silver's saying, of Charlestown: "That, son, is a town resolved never to be fucked with."

 

Oh and Silver?  That look you gave co-conspirator #2?  It totally said "Kill co-conspirator # 1".  Don't try to play the innocent.

 

So . . . where the hell did Anne go?

Edited by WatchrTina
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He reminds me of guys I've met who, 30 years later, still complain about some dumb bullshit his ex girlfriend did to him.

 

One of the reasons why I like participating in online forums is because your disdain of Vane is so awesome. Because that's who he is. 

 

The appeal of Vane, for me, is his straight forwardness. He's no nonesense. No BS, no games, no lies, no back-stabbing, no double-crossing. He says what he means and means what he says, something that can't be applied to many characters on this show.

 

Unlike pretty much every major character, however, Vane fails to see the big picture. To be fair, he doesn't want to be a slave again. As it's been said here, he'd rather die. Elanor, Flint, Miranda, Rackham, Max, Silver, would clearly *not* rather die. So he's in the way. 

 

Oh and Silver?  That look you gave co-conspirator #2?  It totally said "Kill co-conspirator # 1".  Don't try to play the innocent.

 

I took this all, which was hilarious, was that Silver doesn't quite know his influence. 

 

I'm really pleased they got to Charleston so fast, and I like Flint and Miranda basically in cahoots. (It's ok with me Miranda is wearing some of those busty outfits, but dat ass you know?)

 

Seriously, the actor is gorgeous.

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In the flashback where Flint killed Thomas Hamilton's loathsome father, did I imagine it or was there a woman in the room?  Did Flint kill her too?  I ask because I could swear that when Gates told Flint that he knew about Fiint's having used the ship and crew to hunt someone down and fulfill a vendetta, he said that he had overheard Flint tell Mrs. Barlow "They're dead."  Who are "they"?  Are we to assume That Flint killed Thomas' mother as well?

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I think my problem with Vane is in the execution, not the character.  Vane as a character is interesting.  I can understand why he wouldn't want reconciliation with England because he feels the citizens of Nassau would end up as slaves of England; the problem with him is he'd rather die than be a slave, but that doesn't mean he should take everybody else with him.  

 

Actually, last season didn't Flint want to use the Urca gold to purchase guns and cannons so England couldn't mess with Nassau?  I thought that he wanted Nassau to be independent.  I thought it was Miranda who pushed reconciliation.  

 

Flint and Vane have two different, but interesting points.  Vane's like, "If we're badass enough, England wouldn't dare fuck with us."  While Flint's like, "If we reconcile with England, we'll be independent and they won't fuck with us."  Instead of them fighting each other, they should put their heads together and realize that a free Nassau can support itself AND be badass at the same time.  

 

The execution of Vane makes him gross IMO.  The bare, waxed chest, the Batman voice and every time I see him, I wonder who sewed those extensions into his hair.  Every time he comes on screen, he takes me out of the show, I feel like he's doing a Saturday Night Live sketch.  Zach needs to tone the shit down.  Toby's doing a much better job as Flint.

 

I think Flint killed both of the Hamiltons because he wanted to leave no witnesses.  

Edited by Neurochick
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I don't mind Vane, but what I find annoying about him is his voice, not so much the sound of it, but his manner of speaking.  It seems like he is trying to come across as menacing, but often times, it sounds more like he is narrating from a book or something...I don't know.  Also I find his previous blind adoration of Eleanor mind-fuckingly dim.  Other than that, I like him just fine. 

 

I too am wondering how he and his men followed Flint without use of their boat because that was a pretty slick maneuver. 

Edited by Fable

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I was asking last week why Vane & Flint were opposed to one another from the very beginning.  The show kicks off by putting them in opposition in the very first episode by having Silver "steal" Flint's "rightful" plunder (the page with the time-table for the Urca) and then Silver & Max try to sell it to Vane's crew via Jack.   We all know how that went down and understand why that set up Vane to hate Flint but I got the impression that the enmity between the two men pre-dated the start of the show.  I had chalked it up to just two alpha males, each seeking to be viewed as the biggest, the baddest, the meanest mo-fo in the Republic of Pirates.  That made sense in season 1.  But now i'm enjoying seeing the conflict between the two men mature into something more ideological.  Flint seeks reconciliation with Great Britain while Vane sees that as submitting to enslavement.  The other ideological difference I see is that Flint is one of those "the ends justify the means" thinkers.  He genuinely expects Lord Ashe to overlook his years of piracy because it was all in service of trying to preserve Lord Thomas' vision for Nassau.  Vane's reasoning is much less convoluted.  He's a pirate.  The weak are meat which the strong do eat.  Vane eats.  And he wants to keep it that way.   I can't help preferring Vane's point of view, even though he is a criminal, even though he is a murderer and a thief, because his world view is more honest.  He makes no excuses for his behavior the way Flint does.  That's why, for now at least, I'm firmly #TeamVane.

 

Also Vane is the single scariest person in the BlackSails-verse right now.  I enjoy a good frisson of fear.

Edited by WatchrTina
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But I'll be damned if I can figure out what Vane & Co. are doing hiding in the water off Charlestown, masquerading as  swamp grass.  More importantly, HOW DID  THEY GET THERE?  Didn't Jack say that Vane's ship (the one he took from Ned Low) was still in the bay?  if so -- how did he and his minions get to Charlestown?

 

I believe Vane is going to try stealing the Man Of War from Flint while Flint is in Charles Town. I think that's what he is there for. How he got there . . .I confess to knowing nothing about sailing but would a smaller, lighter ship be faster than the big war ship?

 

Wasn't Richard Guthrie watching Flint's ship depart at the end of last week? If Vane killed him, then set sail with his crew immediately after (on what ship, I dunno, maybe one they stole, did Guthrie have a ship in the bay?) they could've arrived very soon after Flint did.

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And he wants to keep it that way.   I can't help preferring Vane's point of view, even though he is a criminal, even though he is a murderer and a thief, because his world view is more honest.

 

 

That is a good point.  I wonder why Flint doesn't share Vane's worldview considering the shit that England (Lord Hamilton) did to Flint.  I mean England kicked Flint in the balls, so why does he want to reconcile?  

 

I think it's like this, Flint has lived in England, he's lived like a human being, while it seems that Vane has lived like an animal for most of his life.  It's like this, Flint would take his time, while Vane would give you a "wham bam thank you ma'am," well, I don't think Vane would say "thank you", he'd just grunt.  

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The last ludicrous image and dialogue by Vane defines how inept the characterization is but the degree of pandering involved in the presentation of the character.  The tough, strong, never backs down, ripped bad boy with a soft but firm heart for a woman is not a new fantasy.  While in real life, the aggressive, tough, refuses to back down bad boy is well more often than not just bad, in various artforms the bad boy is redeemable and part of the trek is how a woman's love redeems him.  How sweet and how often inauthentic.  Yet the rough part is how to depict such a character without coming across as a cartoon.  A fallback seems to be the Clint Eastwood voice.  Yet this was Eastwood's natural voice.  When Christian Bale, in Batman, or Zach McGowan use it, it seems artificial. 

 

So while the character is a walking, talking cliché designed to reach that audience that loves the bad boy, McGowan never seems convincing.  He may look the part but when that mouth opens or he attempts to look scary tough, it provides laughs more than anything else.  And on a show with complex characters, this sketchily drawn character comes across as a parody. 

Edited by dohe
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I agree dohe.  When Vane talks, he takes me out of the show, it's like he's in another show entirely.  And I DETEST the "bad boy woobie" bullshit.  Bad boys are just that Bad.  Just because someone says what they mean and means what they say doesn't make someone any less a douchebag.   And on "Afterbuzz TV" those two young women who talk about Black Sails are so hot for him.  YUK,  Grow up girls!

 

The problem to me is that all of the other characters have some depth to them, they seem real to me, while Vane is one note, gravelly voice, bare, waxed chest, hair extensions, Batman voice; a brunette Fabio, a parody of a pirate.  I don't get why anyone with half a brain would follow him.  

 

BTW, who wrote that note?  Can Vane read or write?  

Edited by Neurochick

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I confess to knowing nothing about sailing but would a smaller, lighter ship be faster than the big war ship?

I also know nothing about sailing but I'm reading a book set in the same timeframe (The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson) and last night a galley rowed by slaves was able to out-distance French man-o-wars when the winds were favorable because they made use of both wind and oars.  So the only thing I can figure is that Vane & Co. rowed / sailed to Charleston in the same longboats that they arrived in after Vane first recruited them.  I just looked at a map and it does appear to be a possibility, with the long boats following the Florida coast north and putting in frequently to take on water.  But damn, if that's what they did that's pretty amazing.

Edited by WatchrTina

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Another good episode.  I was not expecting a to see Vane at the end, so kudos to the show for the surprise.  I was also surprised to see that Eleanor was using the former madam as a spy - so she (Eleanor) is still trying to keep up with what's going on.

 

I like that we jumped right into everything - on Flint's ship, and the Max/Jack pairing - which I am very thankful for, as it provides some humor which we don't have in Flint's scenes (unless Silver is around).  The partnership needs their planner Silver; no story to tell the men about why they're emptying the hold, no plan for when they come back with the gold.  Of course people will talk.  I'm interested to see what Eleanor might do about this.  

 

 

Unlike pretty much every major character, however, Vane fails to see the big picture.

 

I think Vane sees the big picture - he just sees a different picture than Flint does.  I think we are looking more at class differences.  Remember Flint's story about Billy being pressed into service by the Royal Navy?  That was a common tactic, sort of a draft by physical force; a kidnapping, as Flint says.  You were dragged off to serve on a ship and that was that.  Vane doesn't want to be ruled by a king, doesn't want anything to do with the Royal government.  He talks about being a slave in his letter; I don't know if he was the victim of impressment as Billy was, or if it was some other form of slavery.  He doesn't believe those in power can be trusted and he's probably right about that.  I do wonder what the other citizens of Nassau would want - probably just to be left alone to live their lives.  Granted, if the Navy decided to take the island by physical force, there's not much the inhabitants could do, but there's no guarantee that Flint's plan of essentially drawing their attention directly to the island will improve their lives either.

 

Flint is going by what he wants, knows and has experienced; so is Vane.  We don't know which is right or wrong.  Both men have been shown to be effective leaders, driven by what they want, and brutal when they don't get it or need to take it.  

 

It's interesting to read comments that some view Vane as a romantic hero - I don't see the show doing that at all.  He is (was?) obsessed with Eleanor but not so much that he didn't have a contingency plan in case she betrayed him.  One that his men are on board with, because Vane has been a successful captain in the past and they are looking for a payday one way or the other.  I think he's a very interesting character and has his own particular layers (even though we don't know a ton about his past, other than Eleanor and slavery) but his behavior has been too vicious to be classified as "misunderstood bad boy" IMO.  I feel the same way about Flint - I can sympathize with his loss, but his extreme actions in the wake of that loss are just so excessive, it's hard to feel any more sympathy.

 

 

He genuinely expects Lord Ashe to overlook his years of piracy because it was all in service of trying to preserve Lord Thomas' vision for Nassau.

This just seems so naive of Flint; I hope he has more to his plan.  The piracy wasn't just stealing, it was killing.  Abigail says that Flint was viewed as the most vicious pirate, how does the Royal government overlook that?  Does Flint think he can become McGraw again?  I wish we knew more.

 

Eleanor and Flint shouldn't have overlooked the possibility that Vane would have his own plans.  He was expecting a huge amount of money for Abigail and now views that as stolen.  They should have planned better for him.

 

Though Silver is entertaining, I find his story with the men the weakest - I don't see why the men would follow him.  I can understand that they accept him as part of the crew, and he's good with stories, but he hasn't proven anything.  If he comes through with the gold, OK.  

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I don't get why anyone with half a brain would follow him.

 

He did have Rackham as a q-master, and you know Vane can beat the shit out of most other captains and fight well. So they were probably pretty successful. Hey, Vane's a dbag, but if you crew with him you're making money. Now, not so much, but he's in charge of the fortress. 

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I think [Vane's] a very interesting character and has his own particular layers (even though we don't know a ton about his past, other than Eleanor and slavery) but his behavior has been too vicious to be classified as "misunderstood bad boy" IMO. I feel the same way about Flint - I can sympathize with his loss, but his extreme actions in the wake of that loss are just so excessive, it's hard to feel any more sympathy.

This was the problem I had with the show at the very beginning. Who do you root for when just about everyone is a self-serving, ruthless, criminal? That's what they all looked like to me for most of the first season so I just sort of watched the action without getting too emotionally involved in the outcome. I didn't really care who "won" in any of the conflicts. I think the writing has improved in season 2 and as a result I find myself liking two characters I didn't care for last season (Vane & Silver) and the revelations about Flint & Mrs. Barlow's past are certainly interesting (though, like you, I'm having a hard time sympathizing with James McGraw's decision to become Captain Flint.)

Watching this show reminds me of the experience of watching the Sopranos. I "liked" Tony and Carmella and all the rest and I liked it when they triumphed over other mob figures. But when any of them encountered the general public, that's when I remembered, "Oh yeah . . . these people are AWFUL." I liked it when Vane killed Ned Low (so did Abigail.) I felt for him when Eleanor betrayed him. But if, for example, Vane killed Billy or Abigail I'd have a hard time getting over that. I still haven't gotten over Flint killing Gates or Eleanor arranging to have all of Anne & Jack's crew-mates killed or Anne killing Charlotte.

Edited by WatchrTina
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The show has done a decent job of getting me to root for some of the character actions and then reminding me of what else they do (for example, showing Flint killing Thomas's father and I assume-mother).  We don't know anything about the mother (if that was her) and the father was horrible, but look at how they protrayed Flint - crazy with anger and looking for revenge, slashing away - with Abigail's VO that the Hamiltons were hunted, traveling under an assumed name; Flint was a predator.  Flint wasn't really shown in a heroic light, rather we're seeing more of what he's capable of, in case we forgot Gates.  Plus didn't he order a ship sunk so as to leave no witnesses, killing everyone aboard?  

 

If we go by Abigail's age - 18ish?  McGraw has been Flint for 13 or so years, since Miranda mentions she remembers Abigail at 5 years old.  So he's been carrying this anger all that time?  I'd like to see more of his transformation to Flint.  That's the thing about the show, it's keeping me interested, plus all the twists and turns that make sense - i.e., Eleanor using the madam as a spy, etc.  I can't predict what'll happen next.

 

Maybe we can root for Miranda, LOL, though she said she was responsible for giving up the Hamilton's location to Flint.   I like that they're showing us what real pirates were like and not Pirates of the Caribbean fluffy pirates.

Edited by raven
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If we go by Abigail's age - 18ish?  McGraw has been Flint for 13 or so years, since Miranda mentions she remembers Abigail at 5 years old.

I think it's only been 10 years since I'm pretty sure the "present" is set in 1715 and the flashbacks were set in 1705.  Perhaps Miranda had not seen Abigail for 3 years before she and James had to flee.

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He genuinely expects Lord Ashe to overlook his years of piracy because it was all in service of trying to preserve Lord Thomas' vision for Nassau.

 

I think he hopes Lord A will overlook his years of piracy because of their shared past (he's One Of Us, which is kind of a deal amongst the Brits esp. back then), and will leverage that into the future.

 

I snorted hard enough to sting when Rambo Vane showed up at the end all submerged and camo-painted. No. 16th C warriors are not about the face paint. I might be able to fanwank Wode Blue, or maaaaybe Native American war paint if they'd done any time on the American Colonial plains, but variegated green and black? Nope. Nope. Nope.

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Long time lurker finding a Black Sails Forum here, yes, finally some action :), hello everyone

There is no way she didn't know he would react this way, perhaps not to what extent, but she had to know he would take it very, very badly and she knew what he was capable of. Come on, he basically beheaded Lowe making a spectacle out of it the way a cat leaves a dead mouse on the doorstep. She butted heads with him often enough, and her "playing him like a fiddle" had to turn sour at one point or another. First, back in Season 1, she slaps him in front of basically whole Nassau at the tavern, then after some "cold war" jumps him in the tents, to right after having had her way with him, depose him of his captaincy because of the Max-Affaire. Helping Anne with Haumund certainly did not help either and I am probably forgetting a dozen other events that had them clashing. So let's face it, she had it coming thrice over...

I loved how we got another glimpse on who is Captain Vane, though I still wait to finally find out how he ended up as a slave on the Island I call "rape-island", because no way the expression he had when Albinus (was it Albinus or what was that huge, bearded creep called?) put his hand on the boy's shoulder meant nothing happened. That was a knowing expression, not only did the boy wear the same scar/mark (I don't think all the men on the island did), but he probably was like ol' creepus' favourite toy or something. So the "slave" term could mean as much being a physical slave than being a psychological one, memories, burdens, the British lurking around, etc.
He is the most honest of the whole bunch, you get what you see and you reap what you sow, Jack did when he sided with Anne, Lowe did when (poor Lowe, would have loved to see the psycho interact some more with everyone, that was one of the honest ones too, just a tad more on the crazy side than Vane) when he decided to find a nemesis in Eleanore 'I always need a male to save my butt' Guthries, and now Eleanore finally crossed the lines too. Though I can imagine her finding yet again a way to wind him around her little finger.

Flint, what to say about the man's ideas, he'll follow through with them until the end, since this is Treasure Island and he can't leave us too soon he is pretty safe I would say, even if the beating he received probably is only the beginning of what to expect for his and his little groups entourage in the near future. Can't wait to see how things unfold on their end, though being a Team-Vane member since day one I have to say I am more curious as to perhaps learn how the hell he managed to get his guys there so quickly.

Did they show how he got out of his cell, can't remember? I mean he had to get out, get daddy, kill daddy, and then follow Flint as swift as the wind.

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I believe Vane is going to try stealing the Man Of War from Flint

I think you are right.  His "price" for giving up Abigail was the man o' war and I think he's come to claim it.  If so, that raises an interesting question.  Have Vane and Silver ever met?  I don't think they have.  The transaction between them regarding the stolen page in Season 1 was handled by intermediaries (Max & Jack).  After that deal went south Silver was pretty much a prisoner of Flint's until he got back from the hunt for the Urca, by which time Vane was installed in the fort.  Hmmmm. Now I hope that Vane & Co. do take the man o' war if for no other reason than to see those two come face-to-face.  How will always-be-scheming Silver and do-not-bullshit-me Vane get along?  I can't wait to see.

Edited by WatchrTina

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I was thinking it's been over ten years since the past happened with Thomas/Flint. If they're going to put Billy with Abigail I'm sure she will be aged to her late teens/early twenties. Billy is probably in his 20's as well.

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I think you are right.  His "price" for giving up Abigail was the man o' war and I think he's come to claim it.

 

I was rewatching last night and the Man O' War is definitely his target. Vane said in his letter to Eleanor that he told them his price for the girl. So he's going to get it now. But also Flint ordered all the ship's gun ports closed and told the men not to return fire if fired upon. So he unwittingly set them up for a perfect ambush by Vane. By the time they realize it's Vane attacking them and not neb of Charles Town, it will likely be too late.

 

I suspect that Flint and Ashe will be on the verge of an agreement when Vane will take the Man O' War and fire on Charles Town. Then it will all fall apart. Ashe may even die himself, further complicating Flint's life.

 

In the Vane vs Flint view on England debate -- Flint lived among the upper class in London. He knows the bad but also the good, good men like Thomas and Ashe. He feels that he can work with men like that. Vane views British rule as brutality, having never been on the inside as Flint was. All he knows is their harshness towards men like him. He sees working with them as folly.

 

The fun of a show like Black Sails to me is that you can love and root for the "bad guys". Obviously none of the main characters are good people. They're pirates who had stolen and killed their way to where they are. But you get to see more depth to them than just that. Vane is no romantic hero (although I confess to finding ZM attractive) but, as far as theives go, he's pretty honest and up front with who he is. Not a backstabber like Silver is. You know where you stand with Vane which isn't common in this world of double dealing.

 

Abigail is probably 17-18ish. I'd put Billy around 25. Perhaps a problematic age different by today's standards but for the 1700's, not at all. Fourteen year olds were married off to old geezers in that day. It was probably odd to find a nobleman's daughter who wasn't married by at least her early 20's.

Edited by Garnett7
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I love the way this show deals with the very real logistics of piracy. It's not enough that Max and Rackham know where the Urca gold is, they have to deal with a) emptying the ship so that there's room for it (without arousing suspicion) and b) finding a place to put it all once they've got it. Nothing is ever simple!

 

I also like the way characters are allowed to be cunning without being omniscience. The old madame of the brothel had deduced that Charlotte and the Flint crew member were dead (correct), that Max had her killed because they knew about the location of the Urca gold (incorrect) and that they were planning a voyage to retrieve it (correct). She didn't connect all the dots, but it was enough.

 

I'm used to things always going wrong for Flint, so I was holding my breath when Abigail was reunited with her father. That was beautifully shot: I loved that the father/daughter reunion took place in another room, and the way Mrs Barlowe nervously smoothed down her hair. When Lord Ashe ended up smiling I thought "no way, that's far too easy", and sure enough - Vane is waiting in the water to snag the Man O War.

 

Could have done without Abigail's continuous prattling (when will writers learn that on-screen narration is NEVER a good idea?) but at least she came through for Flint in the end.  

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In the Vane vs Flint view on England debate -- Flint lived among the upper class in London. He knows the bad but also the good, good men like Thomas and Ashe. He feels that he can work with men like that. Vane views British rule as brutality, having never been on the inside as Flint was. All he knows is their harshness towards men like him. He sees working with them as folly.

 

 

I think this is spot on.  Flint is middle class, while Vane is probably lower class.  That has a lot to do with it.  At that time the class system in England was iron clad, I guess it was somewhat like Jim Crowe was in the South.  Vane knows that if England takes over he'll be royally screwed.  I detest Vane, but I can see his point.

 

I think Eleanor is also middle class and when it came down to it, she chose her own class (Flint).  I don't get Vane as a romantic hero (I don't get the woman on Afterbuzz who swoon over him, I don't even find Zach attractive...his nose is too big for my taste), but I do understand where he's coming from.  He's a pirate, that's all he knows how to be.  If Nassau reconciled with England, he'd have no place in that world.  

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Flint is middle class,

 

Probably not. Since we know he's (or was) a naval officer, he's at least professional class, and maybe even lower aristocracy. The British Navy was not a meritocracy.

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Probably not. Since we know he's (or was) a naval officer, he's at least professional class, and maybe even lower aristocracy. The British Navy was not a meritocracy.

 

I meant that Flint isn't nobility.  He was probably upper class, but in that scene in the bar, didn't one of the bullies in the bar tease Flint by saying that his father was a tailor or something?

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I don't even find Zach attractive...his nose is too big for my taste),

Neurochick...I had no idea ;)

 

He has an interesting face; sometimes attractive, sometimes not.  His eyes are kind of close together.  I think Toby Stephens is very attractive as Flint, the clean shaven McGraw is cute but I prefer the Flint look - plus, he reads, always attractive.

 

I think you're right about the scene in the bar, Flint is upper class but not one of the nobles.  

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He has an interesting face; sometimes attractive, sometimes not.  His eyes are kind of close together.

 

Taken one part at a time, ZM's features are not great. But put them all together and his face works for me. :)  And he's got a rocking body.

 

With Flint -- I usually like scruffy men and Flint looks good with the beard but I like him so much better clean shaven in the flashbacks. He's gorgeous in those. And when he smiles it completely transforms his face.

 

I don't really find Rackham or Silver attractive though. The best looking man on the show to me is Billy, actually. But I'll stop being shallow now.

 

I believe it was said that Flint's father was a carpenter. I see him as someone who'd be "middle class" by today's standards. Not "poverty" like Vane or "the one perfect" like the British nobility (Ashe, Hamiliton, Miranda, etc.). I think he worked his way up in the Navy, impressing his superiors along the way, and was chosen for the assigment with Thomas because the Navy felt he wouldn't be swayed by Thomas' idealistic views. Little did they know.

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Shallow time: Billy is by far the hottest guy on the show. Now, I think pretty much everyone on the show is attractive in their own way, but Billy....dang. And Max is definitely the hottest woman. If they had a scene together, the screen would just melt. 

 

Shallowness over momentarily. 

 

Vane would be pretty low on the social hierarchy in Britain I would think. He was an indentured man at some point, to Captain Creep right? We don't really know where he was before that, but I cant imagine it was anywhere good.  Whereas Flint was more from a respectable, tradesmen background. I think that really is a big part of their beef with each other. they just don't get how the other one thinks, or if they do, they don't like it. And I think a lot of that is their backgrounds. 

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Shallow time: Billy is by far the hottest guy on the show. Now, I think pretty much everyone on the show is attractive in their own way, but Billy....dang. And Max is definitely the hottest woman. If they had a scene together, the screen would just melt. 

 

Shallowness over momentarily. 

 

I think it says something about just how attractive these people must be, that they're still attractive despite being covered in layers of grime and sweat.

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I'm kind of surprised at all the Vane dislike. I don't really like him either, but that's because physically he is super duper not my type. He doesn't really take me out of the scene or more grimy or anything than the other pirates are at times. And Flint is neck-in-neck with him in the "who is trying their hardest to sound like Batman" competition.

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Add me to the list for Team Vane, love his character, and can't wait to see him take the Man-o-War next season. This episode was my favorite, so many reveals, payoffs, great action, and loved Vane and Flint together. It's been so long since I've read Treasure Island, but way to remind me how Silver gets his peg leg! Like tennisgurl, I would love to see Billy and Max together. The actress who plays her is absolutely stunning, almost makes me want to switch teams ;)

Finally, good riddance, Eleanor, so sick of her simpering, have fun in the London gaol.

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