S04.E09: Episode Nine

[xaxat]

Dear producers, thank you so much for Carol's gratuitous partial nudity.

 

xaxat

 

Kathleen Rose Perkins is so good on this show (gratuitous partial nudity aside). You just knew it wasn't going to end well for Carol. She is such a sympathetic character. But, as we've seen before, she's a survivor, so I'm not too worried about her.

 

The actor playing Helen Bash has a great "death stare".

 

Is "The Box" based on a real show? It seems like such a ridiculous concept, but the whole reality TV industry is based on ridiculous concepts.

 

 

Season finale?!?!? It went by far too fast!

[Fisher King]

OMG, this episode is just too good.  I won't post any details right now because I want to see what others think and the ep may not be available OnDemand yet.

 

I will say that with the developments that there's no way the show will not be renewed for season 5.

 

I think this show has always been consistently good but this season really shines.

[Inquisitionist]

Hopefully available On Demand this evening.  You have piqued my interest even more than usual!

[maraleia]

 

It's show time for Matt and "The Box"! Season finale.

[WearyTraveler]

I saw this last week and have been waiting for you guys to catch up for SO long!

[joelene]

I saw it last week too and it was glorious! When are renewals usually announced?

[Fisher King]

Showtime announced  in April last year that there would be a season 4. So maybe we'll get a confirmation of S5 soon.

[Ailianna]

It's not on demand on Showtime for me yet. Any idea why the delay?

[ganesh]

I'm not so pleased that Carol is still kind of a punching bag. Though I understand that she felt the need to leave the network after what happened. I thought adding Tim to run the show was a little too contrived, but in character for Helen. The only problem is that Helen knows well enough from Sean's outburst that Tim isn't the creative force behind the show. As much as she wants to fuck Bev over, at the end of the day, it's a network exec's job to put out shows that will sell ads. Helen was clear in that the script was so good that they optioned immediately to a series. It seems likes she's shooting herself in the foot. 

 

There's only so much "pushoverness" you can do with Sean and Bev too. Sean had his moment a few episodes ago when he challenged them to let Tim run the show, knowing he didn't have the creative input that he claimed. It seemed that Episodes dropped the ball with giving Bev a similar moment to put Helen down about her delusions of Bev/Carol. Unless they're saving it for next season. 

 

Seriously, how hilarious were the pregnancy scenes? I mean, come *on*!

 

Matt looked good with the vest. I wear a vest with when I wear a suit. I actually thought he did a good job on the game show. Episodes seems to exist in a tv universe that isn't what we're actually in right now. Like, his agent can't find him work? So he's doing a game show. Netflix, Shotime, HBO, Starz, *Amazon* are all putting out original content now. A lot. I can't imagine there's not some role over all these platforms that he can't get involved with. 

[HelenBaby]

Poor Carol!

[whiporee]

I don't see why Sean and Bev's threat is any different now than before. You can't make creative people be creative. They may be under contract, but she can't make them write well. . 

[catrox14]

Oh poor Carol.  I kind of hope that she ends up with a job at the CW anyway and hires Matt to just pop round all the CW shows for a guest visit.  I may or may not be envisioning him as a foil for Dean Winchester....oh the pretty would kill me.  Or he could be a superhero on Arrow....

 

I laughed a stupid amount at Myra giving birth.  Oh my gods. The way she "coo'd" with her baby was hysterical. 

 

I love this show.

[Sakura12]

Myra and her baby making the same noises was hilarious!

 

Helen is one vindictive possessive woman, Carol's lucky she got away now before Helen removed the engine from her car so she couldn't visit anyone (that's a Twilight reference). Poor Carol everyone moving away from like she has the plague to keep their jobs. Although can't Bev and Sean walk away from the show? Tim doesn't have the creativity to write the show so it will tank, therefore hurt the network. 

 

Also come on Carol, at least check that crazypants is telling the truth first. I was screaming at the tv the whole time with he's still crazy don't believe him!!

 

The In the Box game was more awesome then I thought it could be. I'd watch Matt hosting that show, now complete with Merc being an unwilling contestant. 

[slowpoked]

So I was in and out of watching the show and didn't quite see it entirely, but did Casto Sotto play a mean prank on Carol, or was he still that delusional that he is the head of the CW?

 

Poor Carol! The woman can't get lasting happiness. And if I were Bev and Sean, I'd just walk away from the show entirely rather than working for slimy Tim. Let he and Helen have their soon-to-be-sucky show. They already walked away once so it's not like it can't be done. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by slowpoked

[iMonrey]

I think Castor is just still crazy and delusional. Carol should have known the CW couldn't afford to pay twice the salary she's making at a (fictional) major network.

 

Am I crazy or does The Box actually seem like it could be a real show? I think I would actually watch it. The first one anyway. Release the bugs!

 

My one and only gripe about this show is that the seasons are too short and too far apart. They better renew this thing.

[ganesh]

Although can't Bev and Sean walk away from the show?

 

I would think they have to buy out their contract, and I am guessing that they don't have the cash for that. Additionally, they might *really* be in love with their show and couldn't bear to just hand it over to Tim.

 

I suppose irl, they would sue. 

I think this is pretty risky for the show. Bev *loathes* Tim and I can't see every week watching them snip is going to be funny. 

[Dandesun]

Yeah... this is going to be tricky because, at this point, they've split up the main team completely. Sean and Bev are doing the show (at the moment); Matt is doing the game show; Carol is... somewhere else. It should be interesting to see what happens with Carol but I'm already gritting my teeth regarding Sean and Bev's predicament.

 

If the show wants me to loathe Helen, they succeeded with flying colors. Merk was one thing. He was so ridiculous that when he pulled something like screwing over Matt (who, yes, was screwing Merk's wife even though Merk was having a five year long affair with Carol) you kind of dug it. Helen... I guess she couldn't remain the awesome person she started as. Now she's a paranoid tyrant. That being said, I did enjoy her turning the screws on Merk. Merk kind of deserves it but Sean and Bev don't. That's the real issue for me here. Beverly didn't do anything wrong and neither did Carol. Carol wasn't cheating on Helen but as far as Helen's concerned they're guilty.

 

I have to think that Helen is going to get hers for this because I just don't see the torture of Sean and Bev dealing with the likes of Helen and Tim being a hell of a lot of fun for the long haul. I got my sister into the show this season and after this episode she just went 'Yeah... this is about to get really annoying.'

[Sakura12]

Who would've thought that Merc was the most normal person Carol dated (and by normal, I mean normal by Hollywood standards). 

 

I think they can turn it around, this show has been consistently pretty good compared to other shows I watch. So I'm not worried.  

[TV Anonymous]

What kind of idiot really to resign from current job without a written confirmation from the new one?

[catrox14]

What kind of idiot really to resign from current job without a written confirmation from the new one?

 

Carol made the decision based on emotions when Helen had her kicked off the set of The Box. Carol was going to be fired anyway IMO

[ganesh]

I don't think Carol had a choice. Not her fault though.

 

Merk kind of deserves it but Sean and Bev don't.

 

No, they don't. Their script was widely regarded as really good. Their demands weren't unreasonable, and Sean was correct in calling out Tim on his lack of real creative work on the project. It seems like Helen it shooting herself in the foot by shitting on a good show for a meaningless vendetta. 

[kieyra]

Regarding The Box: Episodes is really good at coming up with their show-within-a-show concepts. The trajectory of Pucks from "respected British comedy" to "crappy American network comedy" was perfect. The Box sounds like it should/does exist. Even "The Opposite of Us" sounds like something I'd check out. 

[Muffyn]

All day long I've wanted to shout "Release the bugs!"  

[jbrecken]

The Box seems like a combination of Fear Factor, Solitary, and Who's Still Standing?

[Pallas]

This season was a triumph.  The writing, the acting, the character and plot development -- all in the service of bringing the funny, rooted in people we've come to love in themselves and with each other.  

 

Matt in particular was hilarious and effortlessly real in scene after scene, moment after moment. Then Kathleen Rose Perkins actually wounded me with Carol's pain, which she was gutsy enough to play small and poignant.  Carol as what Danny Franks earlier called "a baby animal who imprints," with Perkins giving us every little bit of being abandoned by her mother and her herd.  

 

As Beverly said last season, it's a sorry day when Matt looks like her hero.  But Matt's awareness that the star and not the suit is the show -- which along with his nature, galvanized him to imprison Merc and release the bugs -- may in some way come to inspire Bev, Sean and even Carol.  That and his heart, which is bigger than his ego or his gut.  

 

There are certain things that Matt, no matter what, would never knowingly do to colleagues, friends or family.  He would host Merc's game show first.  He would wreck Merc's game show first.  He would sell his plane first. Bev and even Sean, Sean and even Bev, still have things to learn from him.  I think they will.  He'll show them how to ride the elephant -- and it will be a joy. 

[Mama No Life]

Nine episodes?  What kind of season is that??

 

Good episode. I love Carol and love hating Helen.  I thought Matt looked delicious and he is smaller than last season when they ignored his weight gain so it's funny to see them ragging him about it this year.  He was good on that game show, haha!

 

Poor Carol.  Poor, poor Carol.  I wanted it to be true but felt sure it wasn't.  :(

 

Nine episodes? What?

[Sakura12]

The first season was only 6 episodes, so we should be happy to get 3 more for the rest of the seasons. It's from a British production company, it runs on their shorter series. They made a joke about that in the first season, Matt asked how long their show ran in England, Sean answered 4 seasons. Matt replied their few episodes 4 seasons are 1 season in an American show. 

[ganesh]

I found that line about the 4 seasons = 1 season because it's really not true. UK seasons are more serialized and have a tighter narrative direction, much like this show. One season of 20+ episodes isn't going to be like that, and there's invariably forgettable, filler episodes. 

[iMonrey]

The only thing about The Box is I don't know how it could last 17 weeks when there are only 7-8 contestants and one of them has already quit in the pilot episode. Otherwise, yeah, it does look like something you'd see on Fox.

 

I wonder if Carol would have been OK if she had simply politely refused Helen's advances from the start, or whether Helen would have just relentlessly pursued her and then punished her for not responding the way she wanted. Helen is starting to look as crazy as Castor.

[Sakura12]

American shows go by episodes aired during one year. British shows air 6 - 9 episodes per year, while American shows air 20 - 25. Quality has nothing to do with that joke, the fact is you can fit 2 - 3 seasons of a British show in one American season. 

 

However I do agree that British shows are better because they are shorter and have less room for filler. The downside is waiting almost a year between series, instead of 4 months with American shows. American shows have tried doing shorter 13 episode seasons, then ultimately add more episodes when the show gets picked up again. 

[Cramps]

Release the bugs!!!

[calico]

The overhead view of Merc when the bugs were released was the funniest thing in this episode followed closely by Myra's labor noises (and faces).  If the actress was pregnant in real life that was a really clever and original way to deal with it.

 

I'm going to miss this show especially since I only found it a couple months ago and didn't have to wait too long for the new "season". 

[Fisher King]

I wonder if Carol would have been OK if she had simply politely refused Helen's advances from the start, or whether Helen would have just relentlessly pursued her and then punished her for not responding the way she wanted.

 

Carol cannot resist a boss.  I think that's just the way she's written.

[ganesh]

Carol needs validation from authority figures. Which is ridiculous because she's like the only exec that's actually good at her job. 

[Milburn Stone]

If the show wants me to loathe Helen, they succeeded with flying colors. Merk was one thing. He was so ridiculous that when he pulled something like screwing over Matt (who, yes, was screwing Merk's wife even though Merk was having a five year long affair with Carol) you kind of dug it. 

 

Funny thing...as long as Helen's vindictive, sadistic shit was aimed at people we also loathed, like Merc, we all thought it was the bee's knees. Now that the same vindictive, sadistic shit is hurting people we like, it's a different story. But she's remarkably consistent--a vindictive, sadistic, sack of shit from the beginning. I always knew there was something about her I didn't like.

[lucindabelle]

I was kind of unsatisfied... I like that British shows typically are planned out to the end and agree it makes thei tighter. But I liked the Hapoy endings in prior years. The way the whole series began at the end and flashed back was so greatl and last year's happy ending....

I found Helen's sudden shift into jealous crazy after she'd been smart and self aware a bit of a cheat. It just didn't seem like the same woman who knew she liked people who were slightly damaged etc. honestly it just was more interesting to me when she was nice, it's like for once they ran out of ideas on how to move the story forward that way.

I miss the other agent. she was hilarious. Small things like her pretending to be on a plane.

Bringing back Tim is funny but nonsensical. Beverly and Sean can just quit, the network could sue but they might well lose as sean could say honestly that he told the network his conditions before signing and they reneged. Plus it would be horrific pr for the network, maybe that's the plot line. Another crazy boss down in flames, carol rehired.

I think castor was just nutso. He has no reason to seek revenge on carol. But that scene at the CW was very funny I admit.

[Ailianna]

I do feel bad for Carol, but it's also the kind of thing in general that was sort of an accident waiting to happen. Bev may be the only relationship in her life that isn't about her desire to please authority. And I'm starting to wonder if the show isn't making some comments about the kind of crazy needed (or preferred?) to run a network. It's about the connections and politics and manipulations of it; while the underlings have the actual talent to make the shows and keep the thing going, the bosses are playing power games on each other and their staff.

But Sean's comments to Matt about what people are willing to do for money and to be on (or part of) TV was really something that is coming to bite all the characters. Sean and Bev couldn't walk away and just go back to London--and it leaves them open to the Tim gambit. Matt--obvious, as is Merc. Tim is so desperate he's willing to go where he's not wanted and work with someone he hates who hates him back just for the chance.

I love this show so much, and I'm confident that it will be worked out in some awesome way, but it is a long wait between seasons. I actually waited this long to watch this episode just because I couldn't bear it to be over.

[ganesh]

Making Merc take on Matt as the host isn't *that* sadistic, as Matt is still a fairly talented actor, and as we saw, he was a good host. Plus, Helen green lit the game show because she felt she owed Merc something based on actual past events. 

 

Throwing Tim into Sean and Bev's new show is basically torpedoing the show because it was already established that Tim wasn't contributing creatively to the show, and Sean clearly communicated why. This was also based on something that didn't actually exist: Carol/Bev. 

 

It's not OOC, but it's a little different imo. 

 

I found Helen's sudden shift into jealous crazy after she'd been smart and self aware a bit of a cheat.

 

It totally was. They already did the 'network interference' plot with Pucks. I think they made the new script *too* good. Because nothing went wrong and they got all their demands; casting unknowns, etc. So they painted themselves into a corner and kind of had to come up with a contrived way for Tim to be thrown in there. 

 

The Pucks pilot actually tested high, and then the show sucked. So, maybe it would have been interesting if the Opposite of Us pilot didn't test well, and Sean and Bev would have to figure out how to make the show better, since they are on the hook for a series. 

With Pucks tanking, if this new show doesn't do well, they probably won't get another look in the US. 

I just don't think introducing Tim was necessary in order to introduce new conflict on the show. 

[iMonrey]

 

The Pucks pilot actually tested high, and then the show sucked.

 

Actually, it didn't test well as I recall. It was just that everything they had was crap and Carol pulled for Pucks because she liked Sean and Bev and thought the kids in the show were cute. The green-lit the show because they didn't have anything better to put on the schedule. It seems like something that would have been pulled off the air after only a few episodes in today's world but this is a fictional network. 

[ganesh]

No, it actually tested well. The show about the Talking Dog ended up killing them in the ratings. 

 

Like its pilot, the "Pucks!"' premiere was a hit, despite dismal reviews from The New York Post ("'Pucks!' sucks"), Entertainment Weekly ("LeBlanc shoots a le blank") and even The Huffington Post ("I was totally prepared to hate tonight's new comedy, 'Pucks!'. Well the good news is, I was prepared.") And even though Carol (Kathleen Rose Perkins) tried to reassure Sean, telling him "no one cares about TV reviews," I will continue to type (though my pride was a tad hurt).

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/denette-wilford/episodes-season-2-review_b_1647108.html?

[LuciaMia]

 

Now she's a paranoid tyrant.

Sounds like the perfect description of a Network executive head.   ;-)

 

Very bummed out as well that this is the season finale.  Damn, all these cable original shows go by so fast.

 

Hmmm, but they don't specify what KIND of bugs.

[xaxat]

I was imagining a whole bunch of ladybugs.

 

And then I felt bad because Merc would be stomping on the cute little things.

 

Look! Matt managed to sell "his" home!

 

Edited March 22, 2015 by xaxat

[Dandesun]

Well, there was loud buzzing like a swarm of bees when the bug POV camera was descending on Merc. I would imagine that most shows would have harmless bugs due to stinging type bugs being ripe for litigation but here? Who the hell knows?

[WearyTraveler]

I'm hoping it's roaches, tons and tons of roaches!

[DianeDobbler]

Renewing this thread a bit because I just finished binge watching a couple of seasons.

 

I didn't think Helen's transition to evil, paranoid tyrant was too abrupt. The seeds were there from the first, with this incredibly charming, self-effacing youngish woman who also happened to be a hugely powerful, highly paid executive running major broadcast networks. You don't get to be in the latter position at her age and her gender without there being another shoe ready to drop. She was too charming, too accessible, too fast, right away. There was no ebb and flow with her. It was almost as if the charm made her impenetrable. For me, her initial personality with her job made me think "What's the catch." Contrast it to Bev/Sean first meeting Carol and Matt. Plenty of awkward, plenty of openly conflicting agendas, plenty of getting-to-know you space that made the ultimate friendships believable.

 

A couple of thoughts: wouldn't Carol have a discrimination case against Helen? They were in a relationship, and Helen fired her strictly to retaliate over the relationship. It's pretty tricky to launch a lawsuit in that business because you don't want to alienate anybody, but I think Carol absolutely has a case.

 

As to the bugs, I thought the scenario with Merc was hilarious and completely worked despite being totally unlikely. Again, lawsuits. Even The Box itself would have to be able to do the bug thing without actually hurting anybody. I'm pretty sure the show Survivor had to set itself up so nobody was in danger of actually starving, dying, becoming ill while participating.

Edited August 29, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[Ailianna]

A couple of thoughts: wouldn't Carol have a discrimination case against Helen? They were in a relationship, and Helen fired her strictly to retaliate over the relationship.

 

Except that Carol quit, she wasn't fired.  She might have a sexual harassment claim (not a discrimination case--what protected class was being discriminated against?) over the change in her assignments, but all we really saw was a freeze out, which is hard to prove is a negative work situation.  Carol didn't let it go long enough to show a pattern.  Basically she had one bad day on set and quit for what she thought was another job.  She jumped the gun so fast that there's really no evidence that it was more than a one day issue.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Ailianna

[WearyTraveler]

Except that Carol quit, she wasn't fired.  She might have a sexual harassment claim (not a discrimination case--what protected class was being discriminated against?) over the change in her assignments, but all we really saw was a freeze out, which is hard to prove is a negative work situation.  Carol didn't let it go long enough to show a pattern.  Basically she had one bad day on set and quit for what she thought was another job.  She jumped the gun so fast that there's really no evidence that it was more than a one day issue.

 

While I agree that Carol's case is one of harassment and not discrimination, there are a few errors of fact in your post.

 

Discrimination is not only for a class segment, there can be sexual discrimination (a person who is treated differently because of his/her sexual preference), age discrimination (someone doesn't get a job because he/she is too old), gender discrimination (a woman is paid less than a man for doing the same job), religious discrimination, racial discrimination, social discrimination, and so on. Also, there's no such thing as a protected class.  Everyone is protected under the law; even criminals on death row have rights.  The system may not always work or live up to the ideals that set it up, but that's for another day.

 

As for Carol's case, harassment cases are almost always highly circumstantial, but she does have enough to prove a pattern.  Some of her co-workers had noticed the perks she was getting for sleeping with her boss, and Beverly can testify to the weird behavior she observed (the boss showing up in their hikes, Carol having to speak to her in secret, the boss' out of control jealousy, etc.).  Lawyers can argue that it's circumstantial, or hearsay, but, generally, a company would rather settle than go to court over these things; so Carol could still benefit from suing them.

 

What that would do to her career in Hollywood is something else.  She might end up not being able to get another job because she was the woman who sued the studio, and although no other studio would admit it, they would not want to hire a person who could end up being litigious, and they wouldn't know any of the details we, as the audience, know.  They would just see her as a woman who sued a studio once and could do it again.

[Ailianna]

Also, there's no such thing as a protected class.

 

Protected class is a legal term.  Almost everyone will fall into various classes, but there is absolutely such a thing.

 

In United States Federal anti-discrimination law, a protected class is a characteristic of a person which cannot be targeted for discrimination.[1] The following characteristics are considered "Protected Classes" by Federal law:
Race – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Color – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Religion – Civil Rights Act of 1964
National origin – Civil Rights Act of 1964
Age (40 and over) – Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Sex – Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
Pregnancy – Pregnancy Discrimination Act
Citizenship – Immigration Reform and Control Act
Familial status – Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
Disability status – Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
Veteran status – Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
Genetic information – Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

Individual states can and do create other protected classes, which are protected under that state's law.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

 

It's a legal term of art.  It doesn't mean people outside the class are not protected. 

 

As for Carol's case, harassment cases are almost always highly circumstantial, but she does have enough to prove a pattern.  Some of her co-workers had noticed the perks she was getting for sleeping with her boss, and Beverly can testify to the weird behavior she observed (the boss showing up in their hikes, Carol having to speak to her in secret, the boss' out of control jealousy, etc.).  Lawyers can argue that it's circumstantial, or hearsay, but, generally, a company would rather settle than go to court over these things; so Carol could still benefit from suing them.

 

She didn't actually get any perks--no raises, no special assignments, no bonuses.  People saw and interpreted a relationship--but they were careful at first that it was just them getting along and it didn't affect the work.  The walks and Carol's paranoia about being on the phone with Bev, et cetera, are all either outside work or Carol's doing. The only downside she ever got was social--she was asked to step off a stage during a taping.  Not exactly a negative consequence other than Carol's hurt feelings.  She's  not going to win, because she is going to have a hard time finding a marginally competent lawyer who would take the case and she would get thrown out on a summary motion if she tried to file.

[WearyTraveler]

I stand corrected on the class.  Thank you for the new information.  Always good to learn new things.

 

I still think she got perks and they were noticeable.  She could skip work, she was invited into major decisions, she got clothes and presents, she was practically living with the boss, etc.

 

I'm not saying she would legally win, but she has enough to go to court.  Lord knows people have gone to court with a lot less.  The power relationship was there.  Had any other employee but Carol been there, he/she would not have been asked to step off.  She was asked to step off because the boss was basically exerting her power at work over Carol in order to influence their personal relationship.  That's sexual harassment.

 

And I think there probably are plenty of lawyers out there willing to take the case with the intention of settling out of court, which a studio might do in order to avoid the media controversy that would ensue with a trial, even if they think they can win it.

[DianeDobbler]

I agree there's plenty to go to court and make noise in the media; it would depend on if it were worth it for Carol. I've seen flimsier lawsuits. As far as whether it would hurt Carol in the industry, I think it depends on Helen's reputation, and if she's gone crazypants in previous relationships. I think Carol *is* really good at her job, the sort of #2 anyone would want if they can keep themselves from literally screwing her. Whether or not she'd prevail in a lawsuit, she has a story for her lawsuit - gets involved in a loving relationship that increasingly becomes possessive with Helen getting paranoid, affects work environment, here's a dramatic example of Helen confronting Beverly and Carol on their walk, the walks they've been taking since long before Helen/Carol. Helen's increasing demands on Carol in the office for private interaction - Helen is the one in the power position and Carol can say she never felt as if she could say no in those circumstances. Also the golf cart behavior. Even if a situation is a little ambiguous, people put it in lawsuits anyway.