S03.E05: Salang Pass

[Auntie Anxiety]

 

 

From Wikipedia:

American spies are exposed by observation of their out-of-place forking technique in at least two American movies — O.S.S. (1946) and The Big Red One (1980).

The first time I really paid attention to it was in an episode of Turn(?), the show about the first spies during the American Revolution.  

[scowl]

 The context of Soviet culture really needs to be understood here. The show takes  place only 30 years removed from the death of Stalin, when it was quite common for children to be encouraged to inform on parents, leading to the parents being sent to the gulag, or even murdered by the state. That's the formative environment that created Elizabeth.

 

Soviet history is not at all linear. In those years there was Khrushchev's massive deStalinization program in which hundreds of thousands of prisoners were released and there appeared to be a real relaxation of oppressive measures and a new sense of freedom. If I have the timeline right, this is the environment that created Elizabeth. The Soviet Union didn't go back to complete oppression until Khrushchev was deposed and P&E were already in America.

[Bannon]

Elizabeth is truly hideous but it isn't quite right to call her a sociopath. She's capable of feeling guilt, for instance, but the source of the guilt is most likely to be a sense of having fallen short of what the Soviet State requires. Frankly, I'd prefer to have to deal with a sociopath. A sociopath might kill some people, or steal from them, or just backstab (figuratively) some co-workers, when they see it as serving their desires. The completely fanatically ideologically committed human being, like Elizabeth, however, is more likely to help effectuate corpses being stacked to the horizon, because that is the logical result of lots of people predictably not being willing to toe the ideological ine. The run of the mill sadistic guard at Buchenwald may have been a sociopath. It took ideological fanaticism to be Heinrich Himmler (whom I'm sure could be made to feel guilty for failing his boss), and kill millions.

[PinkRibbons]

I don't know if it will make anyone feel less squicked, but I looked up Julia Garner (the actress who plays Kimmie) and she's 21.

[Bannon]

My sense of things is that Elizabeth is closer to forty than thirty, which means that she was about 7 or 8 when Stalin died, and Khruschev doesn't make his secret speech denouncing Stalin until she is 10 or 11. By then, I think Elizabeth is pretty much Elizabeth, even if she has yet to begin her formal training. 

[5cents-worth]

Yes, Philip was going to have to learn to seduce men, but just as his seduction-in-training began with an attractive woman and worked its way to the elderly lady, certainly he could have started with some mega-hottie from the Bolshoi and then worked his way up to fat naked guy. 

 

So, sort of like levels in a video game? Congratulations!  Sex with an old lady: Achievement Unlocked! 

 

The whole storyline with Phillip and Kimmy is pushing my limits.  When I was a teenager, girls I knew wouldn't have dated anyone older than about 21 or so (although many looked older and lied about their age.)  Someone as old as Phillip looks wouldn't have been attractive at all.  They can't put an end to this plot soon enough for me.

 

 

 

 

[Umbelina]

I always try to flip the script, and think of THOSE times, and imagine how I would feel if Philip and Elizabeth were portraying the good guys (USA!  USA!) spying in the Soviet Union during the late seventies, early eighties.  I think schools were still having kids duck under their desks for bomb drills.

 

Nuclear war.  Crazy assed leaders.  Horrid human rights.  Gulags.  Torture.  Very little food.

 

The good guys, (USA!) Phil and Liz, American spies, infiltrate Russia and try to prevent advances in Soviet nuclear weapons, are appalled by the social norms Russians accept, etc.  Would we still root for them?  Which one more?  The true-blue American Liz?  Or the seduced by Russia, softy Phil, who may compromise national security because of his emotions? 

 

I disagree that Philip and Elizabeth always have it easy.  They've had SEVERAL very close calls, but the nature of them being the leads may lessen the feeling of danger, but only because we, the viewers, know they are the leads, and without them there is no show. 

 

I love that this show makes spying messes, and cold, and that death, sex, whatever it takes is all business.  We are not in a romanticized James Bond world here, and the line between sides is murky.  For just one example, look what both sides did to Nina!  Lie, make promises, but the FBI didn't give one shit about her life, didn't mind lying to her, using her, knowing full well she'd probably be killed in the end.  Does that make them bad, or just doing their jobs?

 

Both sides have a greater goal, and both sides believe in those goals.  Oleg and Philip has doubts, and in some ways, so does Stan, about their orders.

 

I love the complications, and much of it feels real emotionally to me.  "Assets" are completely expendable.  What's more important?  One person's life, or stopping "Star Wars" and "Stealth?"  which could kill millions? 

Edited February 26, 2015 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

Remember that that Kimmy is already having affairs with older men; that's how Phillip and Elizabeth decided to go after her. It isn't usual, but not unheard of.

[FormerMod-a1]

The whole storyline with Phillip and Kimmy is pushing my limits.  When I was a teenager, girls I knew wouldn't have dated anyone older than about 21 or so (although many looked older and lied about their age.)  Someone as old as Phillip looks wouldn't have been attractive at all.  They can't put an end to this plot soon enough for me.

 

And to make matters worse (at least for me) is "Jim" looks older than even Phillip does to me.  

[Umbelina]

I don't know if Kimmy has had affairs, or just tried to.  Did the show specify and I missed it?

 

She has daddy issues, as we saw last night.  He's not there for her, he's always either at work, or with his new wife.  She's attracted to the older guys, probably partially to fill that void in hers.  ?

[beeble]

So, sort of like levels in a video game? Congratulations!  Sex with an old lady: Achievement Unlocked! 

 

You almost owed me a new keyboard there! I nearly spit out my ginger-ale trying not to laugh!

[Bannon]

The reason why Elizabeth and Phillip have had close calls, instead of being caught, is because they have it really easy with regard to the stupidity of their opposition. I almost gave up on the show due to the ridiculous season 1 finale, where the FBI can't manage a stakeout. I'm glad I didn't, and the writers haven't gone so far astray again, but the FBI and CIA in particular are still portrayed as being more stupid than what is credible. 

 

I don't mean this as especially harsh criticism; as noted above, the requirements of 1 hour dramatic television must be served, and a real true to life story about Soviet espionage would mostly entail greedy American weirdos like Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen becoming traitors completely of their own volition. You can make a decent two hour movie with that, but not a series that runs for several seasons. 

I thought Elizabeth and Phillip's bug of the brief case in the open house revealed that Kimmy was babysitting for the divorced CIA agent in the Afghan group, and having an affair with him as well.

[BW Manilowe]

My sense of things is that Elizabeth is closer to forty than thirty, which means that she was about 7 or 8 when Stalin died, and Khruschev doesn't make his secret speech denouncing Stalin until she is 10 or 11. By then, I think Elizabeth is pretty much Elizabeth, even if she has yet to begin her formal training.

I think we figured, in S1, Elizabeth was around 40 or 41 (in S1). This is because (as I remember), when Elizabeth tells Philip her Russian name is Nadezhda (S1, in or somewhere close to the Pilot), she also gives him other small details about her Russian life (which they were expressly told they were not to talk about at the meeting where they were "paired" & met before being sent to the US; they were told they were only to talk to each other In English, about Elizabeth's & Philip's lives, as if they'd always been American & always been Philip & Elizabeth Jennings).

Besides her Russian name, she tells Philip her father died when she was 2, in a battle in a place whose name at least then ended in "grad" (at least some Russian cities changed their names after the fall of Communism); I wanna say Elizabeth said it was the Battle of Stalingrad, which sounds right to me, but I'm no longer positive it's right & have no videos/DVDs to check with. If it wasn't Stalingrad, it might've been Leningrad. Based on the year the battle involved happened in real life, & Elizabeth (then Nadezhda) being 2 when it happened, it was somehow determined she was around 40 or 41 in S1 of the series.

Umbelina--I was in school (Start of Kindergarten through College Graduation) from Fall 1968-Spring 1985. I live in an Indiana city that is still home to an Air National Guard Tactical Wing Fighter Base & was, when I was in school, but maybe not so much currently, home to a number of national businesses & industries--including many defense contractors.

At any rate, at the time I remembered it being said, or having read somewhere that, because of this, my hometown was likely to be hit in a Soviet/US nuclear war (though probably after the bigger, more likely, target cities... NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.). Despite this, we only had the standard fire drills & tornado drills; no "duck & cover" drills for nuclear attack, ever, all the way from Kindergarten-College.

Edited February 26, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[Quando]

 

So, sort of like levels in a video game? Congratulations!  Sex with an old lady: Achievement Unlocked!

LOL!!  I am picturing Philip running around the room picking up all the spinning gold coins that suddenly come flying out.

[Bannon]

If Elizabeth is forty in season 1, then she definitely was formed by Stalinism, given she would have been about 16 when Khruschev made his secret speech denouncing Stalin. I think it is really hard to understand how warped one's view of human relations can become, if one's first 16 years are lived in the sort of society that Stalin created. 

[Ellaria]

I don't know if Kimmy has had affairs, or just tried to.  Did the show specify and I missed it?

 

She has daddy issues, as we saw last night.  He's not there for her, he's always either at work, or with his new wife.  She's attracted to the older guys, probably partially to fill that void in hers.  ?

 

Maybe I missed it also. We know she was flirting with another older man and is certainly trying to have an affair but I'm not clear on whether or not she actually did. She clearly has "daddy issues." At least Philip seems to be aware of those issues. I don't need to see that relationship go any further than it did last night. I am curious to see how he will circumvent it.

[Bannon]

Yeah, I may have misinterpreted what Philip and Elizabeth heard on the bug of the brief case. Elizabeth's reaction made me think that she heard something which indicated sexual activity actually was taking place between Kimmy and the CIA agent.

[Umbelina]

I really think they have had several close calls, and had to think on their feet to get out of them.

 

I also wonder about the whole FBI/CIA thing.  I would think the CIA would be better at combating embedded KGB spies, and understand their tactics and methods FAR more than the FBI, which is domestic stuff.  There has always been that division between the two, and rivalry, and in many ways, that's working in the KGB's favor with Philip and Elizabeth.

 

CIA guys are not even allowed to carry guns on US soil, something I learned from listening to Robert Baer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baer, during his RED commentary, and in his books.  They are extremely limited on US soil.  The FBI doesn't really listen to them, or visa versa (especially back then.)  Honestly, since the CIA is far more familiar with what we think of as spies, they would be much more equipped to "catch" Phil/Liz than the FBI.  Because that's what THEY do, overseas.  No one in the FBI has ever "been there" or in their shoes. 

 

Supposedly, after 9/11 there is more inter-agency cooperation, but back then?  Nope.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't root for Elizabeth or any character on a television show but that doesn't mean I don't find her fascinating. I never understood the concept of rooting for a character.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[CarpeDiem54]

I was in school (Start of Kindergarten through College Graduation) from Fall 1969-Spring 1985. I live in an Indiana city that is still home to an Air National Guard Tactical Wing Fighter Base & was, when I was in school, but maybe not so much currently, home to a number of national businesses & industries--including many defense contractors.

At any rate, at the time I remembered it being said, or having read somewhere that, because of this, my hometown was likely to be hit in a Soviet/US nuclear war (though probably after the bigger, more likely, target cities... NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.). Despite this, we only had the standard fire drills & tornado drills; no "duck & cover" drills for nuclear attack, ever, all the way from Kindergarten-College.

You're about 10 years younger than me. I grew up near an Air Force Base and Minutemen missile silos in Montana. The first day of school we were fingerprinted and turned in some information cards filled out by our parents. A couple of weeks later we were issued dogtags we were required to wear. Many people had small bomb shelters in their backyards, including us. They had water and food provisions in them among other supplies and Army cots. We had "duck and cover" drills all the time in school and everyone knew where the Civil Defense shelters were throughout town. The Soviets were seen as a real threat who could/would attack us at any time.

When I was in 4th grade, we moved to Nebraska. I was looked upon as a freak with my dogtags. I was told I didn't need to wear them to school there. The biggest threat was from thunderstorms and tornadoes. The only people who had shelters were rural folks or those without basements or crawl spaces. It was a totally different atmosphere and mindset. The Soviets were regarded as a vague threat instead of something to worry about on a daily basis.

[RedHawk]

They've had SEVERAL very close calls, but the nature of them being the leads may lessen the feeling of danger, but only because we, the viewers, know they are the leads, and without them there is no show.

 

 

I think the most frightened I've been was this week when Philip was in Kimmie's house. All I could think was: He is so going to to get caught with this underage girl. Every minute I was tense with expectation that CIA Daddy would walk in the door. Loved how Philip blasted out of there and made his getaway. 

 

I thought Elizabeth and Phillip's bug of the brief case in the open house revealed that Kimmy was babysitting for the divorced CIA agent in the Afghan group, and having an affair with him as well.

 

 

The CIA agent that Philip and Elizabeth overheard was saying "no" to Kimmie's advances. It was hard to hear most of their dialogue (probably on purpose) due to "static" but she was saying she liked older men and that sort of thing and his response made it clear to me that he wasn't interested and was gently discouraging her from talking to him in that way.

Edited February 26, 2015 by RedHawk

[Bannon]

I really think they have had several close calls, and had to think on their feet to get out of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that they did not have close calls, or that the hadn't shown quick thinking. It was more along the lines that the quick thinking would have been irrelevant, if the FBI and CIA had not been so inept. In this most recent story arc, the CIA would know (they really do have a large counterespionage unit) that their Afghan group was very likely blown, and react accordingly, even if we accept that a CIA agent would be so careless to leave his briefcase out as his Realtor has an open house. I like the show, but it isn't perfect, and the way the FBI and CIA personnel are portrayed is the weakest element, it seems to me. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bannon

[Trillian]

I remember this, too. In my high school class (1980) two girls started dating teachers(!) when they were 16-17 and the guys were about 30 and 32. They of course had to hide the relationships although many classmates were aware by senior year. Both married the guys and had kids and solid marriages -- one is still married and one was widowed recently!  

 

 Same thing happened n my high school (class of 81). At least one young woman (I.e. teenage girl) eventually married the almost-30 year old teacher - they are still married, seemingly quite happily. These days, of course, he'd have been arrested.

Interesting how Philip talked to Elizabeth about having sex with Kimmie. In the end he seemed to want her to give him the order to do it. Made me realize that she basically is his commanding officer in their hierarchy. (I got this before but the scene really underscored it.)

Great take on the scene. I took it as well as Philip's trying to goad Elizabeth into admitting that his sleeping with Kimmie is gross and immoral, with the thought that, if she can admit that, maybe she can see that bringing Paige into that life would mean Paige would have to do gross and immoral things too. I think he *was* trying to get her to give an order - one way or another - so that she could see the reality of what he - and also Paige - is being asked to do.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Or get screwed by him and make it seem like he wanted it, enjoyed it, and was enthusiastic about it? Yikes. At this point I think the KGB "trainers" were capable of anything.

As bad as I felt seeing Phillip's sex training flashbacks, it's difficult for me to feel it was worse than Elizabeth's violent rape by her training officer. Male spies having to pretend they are enjoying sex with people they don't find attractive? Hey, something they have in common with the female agents!

[BW Manilowe]

You're about 10 years younger than me. I grew up near an Air Force Base and Minutemen missile silos in Montana. The first day of school we were fingerprinted and turned in some information cards filled out by our parents. A couple of weeks later we were issued dogtags we were required to wear. Many people had small bomb shelters in their backyards, including us. They had water and food provisions in them among other supplies and Army cots. We had "duck and cover" drills all the time in school and everyone knew where the Civil Defense shelters were throughout town. The Soviets were seen as a real threat who could/would attack us at any time.

When I was in 4th grade, we moved to Nebraska. I was looked upon as a freak with my dogtags. I was told I didn't need to wear them to school there. The biggest threat was from thunderstorms and tornadoes. The only people who had shelters were rural folks or those without basements or crawl spaces. It was a totally different atmosphere and mindset. The Soviets were regarded as a vague threat instead of something to worry about on a daily basis.

I'll be 52 this July, for what it's worth. I also made a small math error in my scholastic history. I actually started Kindergarten in 1968, not 1969. My college graduation year of 1985 is still accurate though.

If anything, my Mom may have had to do "duck & cover" drills in school (but I'm not sure, since she actually lived in a pretty rural part of Alabama, between Huntsville & Birmingham). My Dad may not have had to do anything. He was born/grew up in the Philippines. My parents are both about 27-28 years older than me, if the age difference between us has an effect on the whole "duck & cover" drill thing.

Edited February 26, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[3girlsforus]

I don't know if it will make anyone feel less squicked, but I looked up Julia Garner (the actress who plays Kimmie) and she's 21.

I looked her up too and that really didn't make it any less squicky for me. Matthew Rhys is over 40 so while it isn't illegal or anything that is a huge age gap and is probably a little weird for them too. I know many couples with large age gaps but usually they meet when the younger one is 30+, not barely out of being a teenager. Of course maybe having a 20 year old daughter (close to 21) I am completely grossed out at the idea that she would date someone my age. 

 

But as far as the show goes, if they have them sleep together I'm going to have a big problem with the show. Not only is it gross and something I don't want to see, to me it would be pretty much out of character for Philip. They've developed Philip as the one with a conscience who does some bad things but weighs decisions on more than what Mother Russia wants. He's tortured by some things. As has been pointed out, Elizabeth is the one closer to a sociopath. To me it would take a sociopath for a father of a teenage girl to sleep with another teenage girl just for access to information.

[Umbelina]

Male spies have to be able to get it up.  I think it's a wash on who has it worse.

 

;)

 

The show touched on the uncooperative relationship between the CIA and FBI, the CIA being powerless really, on USA soil, while having the most experience in "on the ground" spying.  I do think it was, and probably, in spite of 9/11 reforms, a problem with cases like this, and many others.

 

Threats are from abroad (CIA) but become domestic when on US soil (now FBI.)  Rarely did the twain meet then, and probably not all that well now.  They didn't trust or respect one anothers' agencies.  So it becomes a little Keystone coppish, not just on the show, but in reality. 

 

The head of the FBI was a lawyer back then, for example.  http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/directors/webster

The head of the CIA, also a lawyer, but with significant overseas "spy" experience.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Casey

 

There were also a bunch of other issues between the various heads of both agencies throughout the years.  Also, neither had hands much cleaner than the KGB.

 

Anyway, my point was mostly that because they didn't work together on a case like this, both sides kind of had their hands tied a bit, enabling embedded spies to last quite a while without being caught.  Not to mention the moles they had!

 

ETA, it's interesting to speculate on if, and why, it's more uncomfortable that Kimmy may be manipulated in a  sexual way by an older spy, but the son of their friends, who killed his parents, was also manipulated in the same way, but no one stopped watching.  Maybe because it was off camera, but I think it feels more like "because he was a boy."

Edited February 26, 2015 by Umbelina

[RedheadZombie]

Yes it was. Right now, I'm trying to get past a lot of things about Elizabeth: recruiting Paige, dropping the car on the poor guy. I know that she is a true believer but it gets harder and harder to have any sympathy for her. I wish that Philip would defect and run off with Paige and Henry. (And yes, I know that wouldn't end well.)

 

If the show had the courage to go the Breaking Bad route, versus a borderline soap opera, your storyline would be incredible.  I don't doubt for a minute that Elizabeth would hunt Philip down like a dog.  I even think she could justify killing him, but it would probably destroy her.  I know Gabriel is trusted and loved by P/E, and I love the actor.  But I am finding him increasingly sinister.  He clearly favors Elizabeth over Philip, and I think he would sacrifice Philip without hesitation.  Philip notices this and I hope he's watching his back.  Elizabeth has betrayed him in the past by reporting him to their superiors.  I want Granny back. 

 

I don't think Elizabeth could kill her own children, but she's already justifying bringing Paige into the business.  A mother who herself was raped, and knows first hand the damage this job does to the soul, yet is drooling over the opportunity to throw her daughter to the wolves.  It will be handled slowly and incrementally, kind of like how an abuser grooms their victim.  First, Elizabeth seemed to agree with Philip regarding Paige.  Then Elizabeth said they should consider it.  Now it's happening no matter what.

 

First Paige will only be expected to get a great education and get placed in a valuable governmental position.  Then it will be - just flirt with the guy and find out what he knows.  Then Elizabeth will be advising her to have sex with the guy to get a hold on him.  Then it's - overdose him so he won't talk.  Finally, if Paige shows weakness or unwillingness to be a fanatic, Elizabeth will fail to intervene to save Paige's life.  We saw all of that with Lucia.  And the whole time, Gabriel will be whispering in Elizabeth's ear, helping her justify every move.

 

The murder of the guy tinkering with his car bothered me in a way I can't really put into words. It was so ... tangential? It wasn't "this guy is about to blow our cover, so we have to kill him for self-preservation", it was "the asset we're working would like a shorter commute, so we'll kill an innocent human being who had nothing to do with anything so that she can get a transfer".

 

I think the show deliberately makes the marks unsympathetic - usually.  They at least get sex, and Elizabeth gave that one guy a hand job in the car.  So usually the marks get something out of the situation, or they're so unlikeable it's hard to care.  We knew nothing about that guy underneath the car, yet he seemed sympathetic and vulnerable.  It's harder to distance myself from the horror that Philip and Elizabeth do when I'm not given a reason to dislike the mark.  I'm also having a hard time with Lisa.  She's such a nice lady, and when Elizabeth's done with here, she'll probably go to death row for espionage/treason.  Her life will be ruined, and her children will be motherless. 

 

My two cents is that I think they will move it down that path, taking it so far as for them to engage in foreplay. I'm willing to bet our little Kimmy is a virgin on top of everything else, and Philip is going to realize that is a line he just can't cross and will stop everything. When I thought she was 18 with daddy issues I didn't think the sex issue was as huge a deal and figured she had already done it. A 15-year-old with daddy issues? Talks a big game, likes to play the part, but when it comes down to it, we -- and Philip, who is already struggling with it -- are going to see a scared 15 year old admit she's a virgin and not as worldly as she's trying to portray. There will likely be tears and Philip switching from a potential paramour to a consoling adult male acting as more as a father than a lover. 

 

I may have misinterpreted the scenes between Philip and Kimmie, but this is how I saw it:  After Kimmie told the story about the garden, Philip saw that Kimmie was craving a father figure, not a boyfriend.  He seemed to change strategies and became very playful (versus seductive) - food fight, etc.  Even the way they were cuddled together watching TV is something you may see between a father and child.  I also think he felt for her, in a nonsexual way, and that's why he carried her to bed.  Kimmie is the one who initiated the kiss, and I'm disappointed we couldn't see Philip's reaction.  I just don't think he is going to be able to go there.  There's a reason Kimmie is the same age as Paige.

 

I would be surprised if Kimmie was a virgin.  The way she came on so strong and pushy to her father's friend was bizarre, and she seems fixated on older men.  I think she acts like a girl who experienced sexual abuse - most likely incest.  It makes the whole situation that much more disturbing to me.

[Umbelina]

Gabriel  IS scary!

 

I think he "likes" Elizabeth best because she will do whatever the KGB tells her to do, hell, she even ratted out her own husband to them.  Philip?  Could be in danger of being eliminated, I think the KGB has doubted him for a long time, and now he's blocking the whole Paige plan.

 

Actually, I think they are pieces on a chessboard to Gabriel.  I think he could take either of them out without shedding a tear, and he also is probably suspicious of both of them, since they are so buddy-buddy with Stan.

 

As for killing the guy under the car?  It honestly didn't bother me at all.  Maybe I've read too many spy novels, and spying history. 

 

To stop Stealth?  That's a pretty damn good reason, ditto the whole Afghanistan war issues (and our hands were so not clean there, or elsewhere at that time.)  One life verses hundreds, or thousands, or millions?  I seriously doubt the CIA would hesitate either.  It's the nature of spies.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Umbelina

[CarpeDiem54]

I'll be 52 this July, for what it's worth. I also made a small math error in my scholastic history. I actually started Kindergarten in 1968, not 1969. My college graduation year of 1985 is still accurate though.

I started Kindergarten in 1959 and graduated college in 1976, so about a 10 year difference. I think the difference was the area of the country. I know those missiles were aimed at Russia so I'm sure they had some aimed at us. Nebraska probably wasn't seen as much as a threat except for the Strategic Air Command in Omaha, which was clear across the state.

In the late 50s/early 60s there was a real Soviet fear frenzy, especially around the time of the Bay of Pigs. I was a little kid, but I remember my Dad was worried. In the mid-60s Vietnam got most of the attention. After that, the Cold War became more prominent again.

[benteen]

Elizabeth was 40 in the Season 1 premiere.  She said her father was killed at Stalingrad when she was two, which was 1943.  Stalin died in 1953 and Khrushchev gave his speech denouncing him in 1956.  Elizabeth was recruited by the CIA at the age of 16, so that would have been 1957.

 

Philip and Kimmie is pushing my limits too.  I seriously hope they don't go there.

[gwhh]

In the Soviet Union, during the Cold War to be found guilty of homosexual acts. Would get you sent to the gulag for 5 years of hard labor!

The KGB had there pick of the best (looking) homosexual from that group. They were called: Ravens. There no real reason for Phillip to do homosexual things for the KGB! None at all!

[Umbelina]

There are many reasons. 

 

For example:

 

To train him to be able to have sex with anyone at anytime.

Because a homosexual is suddenly involved with an asset he's running, or promoted to a sensitive position in his location.  A senator they need to use who is in the closet.

There are any number of reasons a homosexual might enter Philip's orbit, there aren't THAT many long term embedded spies in Washington.

[Helena Dax]

I agree with this 100%, but let's stop and observe that in this episode Elizabeth dropped a car on a 100% innocent person.  Are we still rooting for her?

I am. I think they're absolutely fascinating. And there's something so  tragic about them, too, because their work as spies is destroying them slowly. I have the feeling that we're going to see Philip losing it at the end of this season. And the worst part is they're doing it for a lost, wrong cause. 

 

Philip's training broke my heart. No wonder they're so messed up.

 

I'm not sure I like this new relationship between Stan and Oleg but I loved the shot where they were on a bridge. Oleg, with black hair and dark clothes. Stan, with fair hair and light clothes. Very interesting.

 

When Kimmie was telling Philip about his dad having a secret second family, it's like he realized Elizabeth could be right about the consecuences of lying to Paige and Henry. And I don't think she's completely wrong about that. Stan's relationship with his family was also hurt when he went undercover. I'm not saying Elizabeth is right about Paige becoming a spy, just that Philip and her are in a situation where they can't win. They're probably going to lose their children one way or another.

[RedHawk]

Kimmie is the one who initiated the kiss, and I'm disappointed we couldn't see Philip's reaction.

 

I think his "reaction" was to have flashbacks to his sexual training.

When Kimmie was telling Philip about his dad having a secret second family...

 

 

I also thought Philip was thinking about how he does (nearly) have a second family: Martha and foster kid! As Kimmie said about her dad, Philip is gone a lot and Paige and Henry have no idea what he's doing. So many parallels.

Edited February 27, 2015 by RedHawk

[ruby24]

I think Philip is getting closer and closer to defecting himself. I just hope the show lasts long enough to see how that would play out.

[Chaos Theory]

And this is long before don't ask don't tell and I might be wrong but homosexuality could still get a person dishonorably discharged from the army. So I am thinking getting fired from a DOD job was not a reach. Being able to seduce a dude would be helpful for someone in Philips position. He could later blackmail the hell out of them with very real repercussions.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

I think the flashbacks were when he was in bed with Elizabeth.

 

He seemed to be trying to detach with Kimmy, and frankly, pretty sickened by the whole job, in that scene, and in others.  His daughter is the same age, and his wife and boss are hell bent on putting Paige in this world.  It has to be awful.

 

I kind of hope that when this show DOES end, it shows them back in Russia, miserable.  Maybe found out and chased first, even captured, but somehow traded for someone valuable to the USA, or a USA spy.  Final scene, a cranky, freezing Elizabeth in a babushka, coming home in bad boots with aching feet for standing in a line for groceries for hours, she returns with a frostbitten cabbage, and some kind of bone with a bit of meat on it, opens the almost empty icebox and retrieves one potato.  "I can make soup."

 

Philip drinks Vodka and stares out at the cinder block high rise view nearly obscured by the snow, and wraps his scarf tighter.

[CarpeDiem54]

I kind of hope that when this show DOES end, it shows them back in Russia, miserable.  Maybe found out and chased first, even captured, but somehow traded for someone valuable to the USA, or a USA spy.  Final scene, a cranky, freezing Elizabeth in a babushka, coming home in bad boots with aching feet for standing in a line for groceries for hours, she returns with a frostbitten cabbage, and some kind of bone with a bit of meat on it, opens the almost empty icebox and retrieves one potato.  "I can make soup."

 

Philip drinks Vodka and stares out at the cinder block high rise view nearly obscured by the snow, and wraps his scarf tighter.

With Paige in a gulag for spouting Christian rhetoric and Henry hiding his Levis smuggling operation.

[Umbelina]

Oh man, that reminds me.  That older couple I mentioned before, released from the Soviet Union, and their son and his wife were retaliated against?

 

Brief recap, released on a Jewish political deal, both scientists in some kind of nuclear field, son and his wife the same.  As soon as they got out, son and wife were fired.  They tried to go home, but someone else was living in their Moscow apartment, all of their things were just gone.  They had the clothes on their back, she was very pregnant, no money, winter, below zero temps, etc.  I dealt with the Russian embassy in SF for them, since I still spoke fair Russian, and the embassy people were telling them they could only talk to them in English, so with me, if they switched, I could still talk to them.

 

Your Levi comment reminds me that they (and their son!) were considered smugglers, and I think he was even arrested for a short time because one of the things in the care packages they kept trying to send, and their son never got, was Levis.  I was on the phone with the embassy when I learned that, and I tried to get them to send a list of what was permitted to send, but they refused.  Basically, they weren't about to let anything through.  You want to leave?  Your relatives and friends will suffer.

[RazzleberryPie]

This was a really good episode. Philip remembering Baby Paige as all sweetness and innocence, and Elizabeth resenting her for remembering her as clumsy and clueless........Philip being reluctant to seduce Frizzy Blonde Teen, bc he's thinking she's a lot like Paige, while Elizabeth telling him he has to seduce her, because like Paige, their cause is more important than anyone's trust or innocence. Also, make Paige the seducer instead of the one seduced.

 

Philip's flashback to learning how to seduce/be seduced, or whatever you want to call it was just tragic.

 

Someone upthread mentioned it seeming strange that Philip would chose a colorful baptismal gown, so here's some clarification: Catholics, Episcopalians, etc., that usually baptize infants almost always put them in white. A lot of Protestant churches who Baptize older children or adults use white robes, but mostly for tradition and modesty, but it isn't mandatory. Southern and/or black churches often wear white robes, but it isn't mandatory. Many, many churches, especially evangelical churches who only Baptize older kids or adults who've made a profession of faith within their own timing (vs churches who automatically Baptize at a certain age, or after confirmation classes, etc.) usually wear whatever they want.

 

A church like Paige's, which is a younger, progressive, hippie-ish, probably non-denominational, evangelical, Protestant church wouldn't be very traditional, so most likely wouldn't require certain clothing for a Baptism. Paige in a non-white outfit twouldn't be an issue.

[shura]

I may have misinterpreted the scenes between Philip and Kimmie, but this is how I saw it:  After Kimmie told the story about the garden, Philip saw that Kimmie was craving a father figure, not a boyfriend.  He seemed to change strategies and became very playful (versus seductive) - food fight, etc.  Even the way they were cuddled together watching TV is something you may see between a father and child.  I also think he felt for her, in a nonsexual way, and that's why he carried her to bed.  Kimmie is the one who initiated the kiss, and I'm disappointed we couldn't see Philip's reaction.  I just don't think he is going to be able to go there.

 

My take was very similar to this. The food fight and carrying her to bed was definitely much more friendly and fatherly than seductive. I don't know if Philip necessarily changed how he views Kimmie (as opposed to adopting a second view), but I certainly did. To me, she stopped being, as someone put it last week, just a horny Goldylocks and became a girl looking for human interaction she is not getting in her family. Does it really sound so bad? Especially if we don't label it "daddy issues" (even though that's what it is). 

 

Philip really is the ultimate people pleaser, isn't he? Maybe that's what makes him a good spy. He has his own motives and this is all kinds of objectionable, but the fact is, he is giving Martha and now Kimmie what they want despite not wanting any of it himself. They ask for something and he gives it to them and makes them feel good. I suppose a con artist does the same to his marks, but a con artist makes them want something. Philip didn't make Martha want to marry him or adopt a child (and you know that one is happening, although I have no idea how). And the whole seduction of Kimmie isn't really anything more on his part than letting her have what she wants, as bad as this sounds.

Edited February 27, 2015 by shura

[sistermagpie]

It is very interesting how the show portrays them in showing us their pre-spy days or training in that Philip's recollection and flashbacks are more emotional, sensitive and gut wrenching.

 

 

Philip's had practically zero flashbacks and really only this one has been gut wrenching. Even the emotions were all in the viewer, not Philip. He was just a machine. His flashbacks with Irina barely told us anything about him.

 

What was the significance of Phillip forgetting that Paige was a clumsy toddler?  Maybe he idealized their childhood?  He looked exhausted in that scene - black circles around his eyes.

 

 

I think the significance may just have been a real moment the way parents talk about their kids. They both remembered different things so it took two of them to get it right. And yes, maybe Philip was thinking of Paige as beautiful and graceful because she is now.

 

They must have purposely chosen unattractive people for him.  Very interesting that he had to fake it with Elizabeth in the past.  I assumed he was in love with her by the time they became sexually active.

 

 

Being in love with her, or even just finding her attractive, doesn't mean he would necessarily want to have sex with her in that moment. He seemed to dread it in the flashback of their first time.

 

I'm not a Christian, but I thought the person that's being christened can only wear white? I know they ultimately selected a cream-colored dress, which is close enough, but the scene of Philip suggesting various colored dresses to Paige rang false for me.

 

 

as others have said, no it doesn't have to be white. Paige herself suggested one that looked dark grey. I love that Philip ultimately chose the one she wanted--it was Yaz again, but this time he guessed it himself. I think before that he was mostly just playing around.

 

I think the show deliberately makes the marks unsympathetic - usually.  They at least get sex, and Elizabeth gave that one guy a hand job in the car.  So usually the marks get something out of the situation, or they're so unlikeable it's hard to care.

 

 

Do they? I know they've had some, but we've had longer term marks who were perfectly sympathetic imo.

 

Kimmie is the one who initiated the kiss, and I'm disappointed we couldn't see Philip's reaction.  I just don't think he is going to be able to go there.  There's a reason Kimmie is the same age as Paige.

 

 

I, too, totally saw Philip keep slipping into the dad role (which Kimmie seems to really want underneath it all) instead of a boyfriend. But that made the ending make all that much more sense. I mean, Kimmie kisses him and he just kisses her back automatically and we later see that it's been trained into him to do that. He doesn't have to feel a real attraction to do what he has to do. So when he came home he was thinking about that part of it and really didn't know what he should do.

 

I kind of hope that when this show DOES end, it shows them back in Russia, miserable.

 

 

I honestly don't think they'd be miserable--except for reasons like that they miss Paige and Henry or regret their work coming to nothing. I think both of them would adjust back to their life there if it came to that.

 

Re: the homosexuality it's certainly possible that P wouldn't be expected to have sex with men in reality (though perhaps the KGB wouldn't use gay men as Illegals so it would change things), but I think it's definitely correct for the show to play it this way. Much as I don't want the Jennings sitting around for long periods because that's real spywork, I don't need them avoiding that for reality's sake when dramatically it gives them more to play with with gender roles and identity etc.

 

About Elizabeth's age, I think her claims about her father's death in the pilot can be considered suspect because all the other numbers add up to her being 39 in the pilot.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2015 by sistermagpie

[PinkRibbons]

Blackmailing powerful homosexuals was definitely A Thing during the cold war, I remember hearing that in college history class. They just needed one encounter on tape.

 

The way I'd like this show to end is with Philip and Elizabeth back home in Russia, but not with the kids -- they were old enough to stay behind and make their own decisions after being thoroughly questioned by the FBI. And they're not necessarily suffering some horrible Russian life, they'd be too highly respected. But they're watching the Berlin Wall fall down on TV, or riots in Moscow, or hearing official announcements that the Soviet Union is no more. And that everything they did was pretty much for naught.

 

(Mama said the only time she wished she had been back in Lithuania before The Fall was when the people pulled down this huge statue of Lenin that had been standing in the middle of an otherwise beautiful central Vilnius park. She wanted to help pull him down with her own hands and had to settle for watching it on TV in America.)

[Umbelina]

It would depend on how they ended as spies here I think.  If the KGB wasn't happy with them, they would be lucky to be living a normal life (which many did, even though mine sounds bleak, I think that was very close to middle class life in Moscow, not really extreme.) 

 

Ha!  If they were no longer useful, or had given up information under interrogation, or even been suspected of doing so, they'd be in prison, or possibly dead.  Everyone had to have a job to have a place to live, right?  So what job would they get once they returned? 

 

Anyway, it's fun to think about.

[shura]

If they didn't betray but simply ended up burned, and then returned to Russia, they would most probably be teaching in the KGB or other spy academy, what with their incredible experience in the field. 

 

Some former illegals also become models ;).

[DrSpaceman]

Well it makes sense now why Kimmie is attracted to older men. Looking for a father figure. Luckily for her Phillip views her like his daughter and I don't think will take advantage of her. I felt so bad for Kimmie after she explained what her home life is like now.

Really disturbing to see what Phillip had to go through in "training". Makes me wonder what elizabeth was put through

I can only speak for myself. In answer to your question, I've had a hard time with Elizabeth since she has been vocally commitment to recruiting Paige for the KGB. It seems to be the complete opposite of what any parent wants for their child. (I prefer Philip's choices for Paige.) However, dropping the car on that poor soul is one of her most depraved acts.

 

 

When Stan realizes who Philip is and how he has been used, it won't be pretty. I really want Stan to start suspecting Philip sooner rather than later. The Stan that entered the Jennings' garage in the middle of the night was a much more compelling character than the one that retrieves Milky Ways for a supposed defector.

I don't think Phillip is completely using Stan. I do think he views him as a friend. In fact I think Phillip enjoys being with stan, even though he is in the FBI, because he for the most part does not have to "act" like a character around him and he is not trying to put anything over on Stan. He would certainly use any information he can gain from him, but there is no need for a blatant con or a long con on Stan, he can just be his friend and whatever comes of it is fine, he does not have to work any angle, use Stan in any way and Phillip does not have to be someone he is not.

[dr pepper]

 

So what job would they get once they returned?

 

Trip scheduling and guidance for US citizens at Intourist. I still want to see Stan go to Moscow around 1992. He walks up to traveller's aid desk and-- "Hey, neighbor!".

 

Later they all get smashed together at the bar of the Bolshoi Theater.

[JennyMominFL]

And this is long before don't ask don't tell and I might be wrong but homosexuality could still get a person dishonorably discharged from the army. So I am thinking getting fired from a DOD job was not a reach. Being able to seduce a dude would be helpful for someone in Philips position. He could later blackmail the hell out of them with very real repercussions.

I was in the process of getting a security clearance in the Marines in 1988. I was asked a lot of questions about sexual activity, especially when it came to same sex  issues. If  person is high up in the DoD they would have had the same sort of questions.  Yeah, it could turn out badly for you. It could give Philip ammo

[Shriekingeel]

We are not in a romanticized James Bond world here

But sometimes we are. Last season's Bond-like raid on the Sandinista camp was ridiculous in the context of the show. Great spies like P&E are incredibly valuable; they would never, ever participate in shoot-em-ups in the real world.