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S05.E08: Episode Eight

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Actually it's 

Miss Denker who mentions divorce. She says (paraphrasing) that it all seemed like the wedding of a divorced person. Thomas says "I wish them well. I like Lady Rose, me."

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First post on here so bare with me please :)

Am I the only one to notice the increased attention Tom is Gatting from Edith? Mary is already fond of Tom and has had a real revelation / maturing moment when she realised downton is not standing still (the carson conversation).

For me this is pointing to a huge battle between the two sisters for Tom's affections.

Mary would probably be too snobbish to allow herself to for a guy like Tom, while Edith wouldnt care and is more intellectual and so would suit Tom better in that sense.

Tom could stay at Downton if he goes for Edith. If Mary ends up being the match it woulnt surprise me If Tom goes to Boston first for a few years and makes a bucketload of money. When he then comes back Mary would find him a much more viable partner ... Cos money new or not trumps blood!

It's all pointing to a battle between the sisters for Tom IMO. Could play out a few different ways but I think iTS in the pipeline.

Ps

Liked the way Tom took charge when rosé got the photographs. Telling Mary and rosé what to do. Shows his skills as a competent future man of the manor .... Or wel.... Abbey ;)

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As the mother of an autistic child, I'm finding Marigold less special than "special".

The thought did cross my mind but it can be a very touchy thing to bring up so I basically put it out of my head. I'd be lying though if I didn't admit to wondering to myself whether or not something was going on there. I mostly felt this in a couple of scenes where Edith is holding Marigold.

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Marigold looked like a perfectly average toddler to me - placid, to be sure, but they'd have chosen a placid child to play her, for practicality's sake.

 

Besides, I think there were about three different Marigolds over the course of the season!

Edited by Llywela
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My Lord, I thought Mary was bad. Lady Rose's mother is an absolutely vile creature, and Shrimpy will be much, much ,much better off without her! 

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"She reminds me of Michael Gregson." And thank you Mr. Fellowes for reminding us once again how little you care about Edith that not even her father would think of her over her baby-daddy.

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I hate Rose's mom!  Some people are just so miserable and can't stand for anyone else to be happy. So low! 

 

TG for Tom to take sensible control over the scandal and get it nipped in the bud.  If he leaves, the Crawleys are surely going to be screwed. 

 

Awww, Mrs. Patmore.

 

Why do we need a Denker?  Don't we have enough characters on this show to have a mess like her added to the mix?

 

Love Rose's dress at the reception.  Why didn't she have a white dress and veil for the wedding?

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Rose's reception dress was gorgeous. Surely, Shrimpy will learn what his hell-on-wheels soon to be ex did at the registry. I want him to tell Rose her mother was the culprit. Love when Cora mentioned her father to that old biddy.

I teared up several times-- when Mary and Tom talked about memories, when Mrs. Patmore was crying, and when Robert unveiled the plaque. Good on you, Donk!

I'd run away with Prince Kuragan and I'm nowhere near as old as Violet! ;-)

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I hate Rose's mom!  Some people are just so miserable and can't stand for anyone else to be happy. So low! 

 

TG for Tom to take sensible control over the scandal and get it nipped in the bud.  If he leaves, the Crawleys are surely going to be screwed. 

 

Awww, Mrs. Patmore.

 

Why do we need a Denker?  Don't we have enough characters on this show to have a mess like her added to the mix?

 

Love Rose's dress at the reception.  Why didn't she have a white dress and veil for the wedding?

I think it's because she got married in a registry office so it was probably considered best to wear a suit and a hat and save the pretty dress for the blessing.  She was a lovely bride.

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"She reminds me of Michael Gregson." And thank you Mr. Fellowes for reminding us once again how little you care about Edith that not even her father would think of her over her baby-daddy.

That comment surprised me because I didn't think he would have known Gregson well enough to see anything of him in Marigold. I don't recall them meeting more than a couple of times.

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Throwing a flag on Robert's 2014-esque acceptance of Edith's out of wedlock child. No way would that have happened. I did think it was sweet of him to buy the plaque for Mrs. Patmore's nephew. It would have been nice if she thanked him.

Inspector Javert did not pursue Jean Valjean with as much determination as Mr. Vyner came after Anna. What a ridiculous storyline.

I was pleasantly surprised that the Atticus/whore plot was resolved so quickly. Could pictures have been taken so discreetly and developed so quickly back in the 20's? I wouldn't think so.

I think Lady Sinderby and Shrimpie should get together and let their hateful spouses piss up a rope.

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So, the fact that the police were trying to pin Green's murder on Bates for the longest time means that, at the time, the witness didn't know or tell them that the murderer was a woman. Then he remembered that the unseen person was "shorter".  But now he can clearly pick Anna out of a lineup of short women? Wtf?

 

I guess we're supposed to conclude that the police are asking the witness one question at a time at intervals several months apart, like a slow and insanely stupid game of 20 Questions? 

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It's also funny that a toddler would look so definitively like one of her parents that Robert would be able to pick out the resemblance immediately. A lot of children go through phases of resembling one or both parents while growing up - but saying a blond toddler resembles Edith or Gregson for sure? Please. Yes, I took it  to mean that Robert had finally put together Edith's "obsession" with Marigold, her months-long visit to Switzerland, her grief over Gregson's death, and realized who Marigold must be. 

 

Adding to those who loved the costume porn this episode. And the hats! Dear God.

Edited by moonb
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the fact that the police were trying to pin Green's murder on Bates for the longest time means that, at the time, the witness didn't know or tell them that the murderer was a woman. Then he remembered that the unseen person was "shorter".  But now he can clearly pick Anna out of a lineup of short women? Wtf?

 

And btw am I the only one who noticed that all the women were brunette except Anna?

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I feel quite sorry for Mabel Lane Fox. Not only does she only get Gillingham because Lady Mary Crawley has cast him off, but since she has most likely remained virtuous and virginal, she is going to have a husband that is lousy in the sack and she won't know any better.

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I am so sick of the Mr. Greene storyline!  I would like the persistent policeman to arrest the whole story and throw it into prison without a trial and throw away the damn key! 

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I can't believe Robert so easily accepted his new grand-daughter.  It's such a let down.  I mean, there was all this build-up about how scandalous it would be for people to know about Edith's love child, and piff.  Neither Cora nor Robert were the least bit ruffled. 

 

But since he has accepted Marigold, I think it would be kinder to take a moment to tell Edith that she doesn't have to pretend in front of him anymore.  I'm not sure I understood why Cora told him to say nothing for now.

Edited by izabella
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But Mary never said or even implied that was the reason she didn't want to marry him.  She said it was because the more time they spent together, the less she realized th caney had in common.

 

And Mabel did love him even if she did resent him dumping her for Mary but she got over that. It's like the line in "The Women" "No pride at all."  "That's a luxury a woman in love can't afford."

 

Wth the exception of the tiresome Anna gets arrested nonsense, I really liked this episode.  My take on Daisy is that she actually really likes her job but she's realized that there's a big world out there that she's missed out on because she thought art et al were only for the upper classes and not for working stiffs.

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Just to say, it's Flintshire, not Flincher. They take their name from the place - a county in North Wales.

And their surname is MacClere. But it seems that "Merton" is Lord Merton's surname -- Isobel referred him to last episode, I think, as "Dickie Merton." We've heard of "Larry Merton" before this season. Why is Dickie's title not the name of his seat?

Edited by jschoolgirl
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Inspector Javert did not pursue Jean Valjean with as much determination as Mr. Vyner came after Anna. What a ridiculous storyline.

At this point I can only assume the police are so interested in the death of this valet because he really was a British super spy undercover in Ripon.

So Edith is okay with sleeping with a married man but draws the line at a stag prank that gets out of hand. Interesting moral judgments there.

Loved all the clothes!!

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"Was very disappointed that David Robb had little more than a cameo at the memorial's dedication"

Did anyone notice how utterly dashing Dr. Clarkson looked in his uniform and medals at the memorial dedication? Even though the camera passed over him and the moment lasted a millisecond. I still have hopes that Isobel and the Doc will romantically re-kindle their mutual interest in syringes and whatnot.

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Dickie, Lady Sinderby and Thomas for the win!

 

 

So Edith is okay with sleeping with a married man but draws the line at a stag prank that gets out of hand. Interesting moral judgments there.

It wasn't a prank, the impression from the pictures was that Atticus was spending time with a prostitute on the eve of his wedding.  I know of few women who would handwave that.

 

I was pleasantly surprised that the Atticus/whore plot was resolved so quickly. Could pictures have been taken so discreetly and developed so quickly back in the 20's? I wouldn't think so.

 

I was expecting to see a flash go off in the hallway . How was there enough light there to get such good pictures?

 

It's also funny that a toddler would look so definitively like one of her parents that Robert would be able to pick out the resemblance immediately. A lot of children go through phases of resembling one or both parents while growing up - but saying a blond toddler resembles Edith or Gregson for sure?

It's one of the interesting things that at 18 months of age, a child most resembles it's father. Anthropologists think that its so that he doesn't kill the child in case another male was the father.  After that, they grow to develop their own looks.

 

Mary to Tom:  Rose is leaving, you're leaving and I'm left alone with [that drip] Edith. If you read that I've murdered her, it's your fault.

 

Cora: Do you think you'll like your new grandchild?

Robert: To my surprise, I think I will.

 

Why, Robert? Did you think you wouldn't like a child of Edith's?  What utterly foul people Mary and Robert are.  Imagine Edith growing up with hearing that every day as a young child and a self-conscious teenager.  She must have strength that she's not a psychopath or in a mental asylum rocking, rocking, rocking.

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I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.  Rose and Atticus are sweet, and there is a need in this troubled world for sweet!  (Even the Dowager agrees that love can conquer a great deal!)

 

It was a pleasure watching Thomas use his powers for good.

 

Way to go, Carson!  Mary can do better than Tony.

 

Robert is not perfect, but he does have a heart, and his solution to the question of how to honor Mrs. Patmore's nephew was a good one.

 

I agree with whoever noted above that Shrimpie and Atticus' mother should run off together.  I applauded when she shut down his father.

 

Susan should be sentenced to life imprisonment on a desert island with only Miss Bunting for company.

 

The fashions were a treat.  I LOVED Rose's gown for the wedding, but it was only the tip of the iceberg.

 

Tom, Tom, Tom, listen to Sybbie.  Why on earth do you want to leave Downton?  You have become a beloved member of the family, your child is happy, secure, well cared for, and loved, and you have a position of authority.  How is selling tractors a step up from managing the estate?  You wanted to be a journalist.  Well, Edith owns a newspaper.  Or you could run for Parliament.  And given the shortage of men in England after WWI, you could certainly find a nice young woman from the middle class (or even the ruling class) who would be happy to live on the estate. (After Miss Bunting, anyone will look good to the family!)

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All the clothes this episode were fantastic.

 

Susan is the most wonderful kind of awful, and I'd watch an entire series about Lady Sinderby.

 

I might be the only person on the planet who still cares about Anna, so...GOOD GOD, SHOW. The woman has suffered enough. ENOUGH. I was commenting to my friend how cute her little hat was when she and Bates were at the police station and then it was like OOH SURPRISE LINE-UP, MOTHERFUCKER. And I'm not going to even pretend that I didn't enjoy Mary attempting to throw her weight around. It was pompous and arrogant, but so is Mary. And her relationships with Tom and Anna are her only saving grace, so I appreciated her trying to help.

 

Aww, Mrs. Patmore.

 

I'm very confused by the whole Thomas/Denker/Andy plot. I thought Andy was being set up as a potential love interest for Thomas (a consenting, non-asshole love interest, for once) and then she kinda jumped in and idk what happened. Though I did enjoy her dancing around drunk.

 

Yeah, I think Donk's "she reminds me of Michael Gregson" was his way of cutting to the chase regarding Marigold. But I guess it's good to know that Edith stomped all over two innocent families for nothing. Thanks, Show.

 

Please tell me they're not setting things up for a Mary/Tom/Edith triangle. Ew ew ew ew ew. But what kind of time waste was Mary/Tony/Blake anyway? Lordy.

 

Daisy + Molesley + Baxter = #squad

 

Donk's reason for selling the Della Francesca was oddly sweet and so un-Donk of him. And getting the separate memorial for Mrs. Patmore's nephew. You have your moments, asshole. Still calling you Donk for the rest of forever.

 

Do they change Marigolds every scene? I swear there's been like six of her by now.

 

I think the final scene of the walk back to the house was symbolic. So many people talked about leaving Downton this episode, but at the end of it, pretty much everyone was on their way back to it.

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And their surname is MacClere. But it seems that "Merton" is Lord Merton's surname -- Isobel referred him to last episode, I think, as "Dickie Merton." We've heard of "Larry Merton" before this season. Why is Dickie's title not the name of his seat?

Dickie's sons have the last name of Grey. Isobel says Dickie Merton because that is also correct. Robert is a Crawley but he could also go by Grantham and he and Cora can together be referred to as the Granthams in addition to Lord and Lady Grantham or the more formal Earl and Countess of Grantham. (Obviously they're Crawleys too.) The kids though aren't Granthams and only go by Crawley. Same for the Grey sons not being Mertons. 

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And btw am I the only one who noticed that all the women were brunette except Anna?

 

 

I first assumed that it was a lineup of Greene's known and suspected victims. How can anyone hope to prove murder when nobody saw a fatal shove? Greene could have been so startled by someone's unwelcome presence that he backed or ran into traffic.

 

Cora: Do you think you'll like your new grandchild?

Robert: To my surprise, I think I will.

Why, Robert? Did you think you wouldn't like a child of Edith's?

 

 

Maybe he was just surprised that Marigold's illegitimacy wasn't a deal breaker.

 

Marigold had her old stuffed toy in that last scene.

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My (charitable) take on "Marigold reminds me of Gregson" was that it was Donk's way of taking the shortcut to say he knew the entire story at once. She looks like Edith and that's what he noticed, but he realized the most likely father was Gregson, so asking Cora if a resemblance to Gregson was correct was asking about the entire set of relationships at once (and without saying out loud what Edith had done). I actually saw that as a more subtle, gallant way to broach the conversation.  

 

         Agreed. I thought it was nicely underplayed. No histrionics or tantrums. Just Robert's face as he studied Edith and Marigold together, then the look of recognition as he figured it all out. And the way he brought it up with Cora was very gallant-especially since he couldn't be quite sure how much Cora knew. It was nice to see those two in sync again.

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The episode of anti-climaxes:

 

- Mary/Tony/Blake: Built up over 2 seasons ends in... nothing. Tony is not a murderer, not sinister, not broke not suicidal. He just marries someone else. And Blake goes to Poland never to be seen again? Ok, we don't know that, but it looks like it.

What a waste of time!

 

- Edith and her illegitimate child: Drama, drama, drama ends in ... nothing. The child lives at Downton now. Everyone of the family will eventually know. Everyone is happy.

Yet another waste of time.

 

- Tom and America: He started saying he thinks he should leave in S4. Built up over 2 seasons where NOTHING happened besides him saying "I don't belong here, I think I should leave." And now surprise! It looks as if he will do just that!

What a waste of time!!!

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I don't think Denker had any cougar-y intentions towards Andy.  I think she had some kind of deal with the club owner where, in exchange for free drinks, she would bring in easy marks to lose at the card tables.

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We've been explicitly told hat daddy Aldridge care about the Jewish community, he's entirely right that Jewish children are matrilineal and their grandkids won't be Jewish.

That appears to be all Fellowes knows about Judaism, that, and antisemitism.

He doesn't know that at a Jewish wedding the groom isn't waiting for the bride but is escorted by his parents. Since this was a registry why then did it feel so goyishe?

Also forgive me, since rose doesn't care very much about religion and its very important to Atticus family why doesn't she convert? It certainly was not unheard of in 1924 and since papa Aldridge cares so much then why not!

Another point, why was the engagement so short? Two months??.

Edited by lucindabelle
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Why, Robert? Did you think you wouldn't like a child of Edith's?

I don't believe that's what he meant. I think he'd always imagined a grandchild born out of wedlock as the worst imaginable thing that could happen to one of his daughters, something he could never accept...yet now that it has, to his surprise he finds that, having seen Edith and Marigold together, he doesn't care about the illegitimacy and potential scandal the way he'd assumed he would, instead feels nothing but love.

 

I don't think Denker had any cougar-y intentions towards Andy.  I think she had some kind of deal with the club owner where, in exchange for free drinks, she would bring in easy marks to lose at the card tables.

Yes, that was the arrangement. It was explained quite explicitly in the episode.

 

Another point, why was the engagement so short? Two months??.

Perhaps because those crazy kids saw no reason to wait - and, indeed, have no reason to wait, if they're sure about one another. They don't need to spend months saving up to pay either for the wedding or a house, or waiting for the right venue to become available. They already have the funds, the venue, the home - everything they need. And they wanted to be together now, not in a year's time. So they went for it.

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Why, Robert? Did you think you wouldn't like a child of Edith's?

I don't think this is what Robert meant at all. I think he's surprised that he isn't as bothered by the illegitimacy issue as he might have thought he'd be.

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Yeah I guess they wanted to do it right away but I thought in those days a year long engagement was the norm and considering they hadn't known each other long and the whole religion thing..,

However, didn't bother me to the point of implausibility or anything,

If Isobel hasn't formally ended her engagement is it weird that Merton wasn't there? I mean maybe not since its not her invite.l.

I loved maggie smiths sudden expression of excitement,

So glad sprat got caught trying to get denker in trouble, why is he not fired?

Edited by lucindabelle

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I wonder why Edith wasn't included in the scene where Rose is trying on her going away outfit? It's also a little odd Anna was there to help assist Rose instead of Madge, right?

 

Favorite scene hands down is Sybbie playing Chutes and Ladders with Donk. "Hurry up, Donk, it's your turn!" *love* Interesting that Sybbie seems to be closer to Robert than Cora. I wouldn't have predicted that back when she was born. 

 

Mary and Rose definitely seem closer than Mary and Edith do. I also liked the little moment between Rose and George where we see that George is quite comfortable with her. 

 

 

So glad sprat got caught trying to get denker in trouble, why is he not fired?

Reliable help isn't as easy to find at this point in the story. Violet is set in her ways and hates change. Spratt probably kisses her ass 98% of the time in spite of Violet's claims that she panders to him. 

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The VILLAINS (Poppa Aldridge and Susan) are cracking me up.  Maybe they should get together and adopt Lord Mertens' adult sons and live in Meanieville.  Meanwhile, Shrimpy and the former Mrs. Aldrige can honeymoon in Niceville.  So OTT!

 

Daisy, Daisy give me your answer, do.  I'm just crazy when there's a scene with you . . . And yet, people continue to bend over backwards to please her, why?

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Boring season that really spun its wheels and went nowhere. Hoping Fellowes will throw Edith a bone and finally allow her happiness and a fulfilling career. Also, I just love Shrimpy. That is all.

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So what the hell was the purpose of Denker?  I was totally puzzled by her in this ep.  First we get a sordid implication (to me) she was sexually panting after this temp footman, who's a fraction of her age.  And then the real explanation was so convoluted, I was still baffled.  So is that the end of Denker?  Too bad.  I thought she was a good foil for Spratt, who I find a ridiculous a-hole.  I remember what a dick he was to Moseley.

 

The very second Andy came onto the scene, Thomas was just a walking boner.  Sheesh, could he have been any more obvious?  Ew, he was particularly skeevy in this ep.  He gave me the chills, he was acting like such a predator.  Oh sure, Andy wasn't completely clueless about Thomas.  He looked very uncomfortable with the way Thomas was being so chummy.  For such a handsome man, Thomas surprisingly has no game (in hooking up), does he?  Or maybe he's just super horny.  

 

Look, Thomas, I realize Grindr didn't exist then, but just go to the nearby park & get your rocks off with strangers who are into it -- not dumb straight boys who happen come into your path of vision.  That just ain't right.

 

Now, wait a minute -- could I be wrong bout Thomas?  Were his motives pure & he actually wanted to be a nice guy & help poor dopey Andy out?  Nah, not believin' that for a sec.  This is Thomas after all.  And while Andy isn't even especially so hot or cute, he's young & has a pulse & he's nearby, so I still question Thomas's motives.

Edited by ScoobieDoobs
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From the top, in an episode that started tying up loose ends:

 

* Rose and Atticus get married. Eh...

 

* Anna arrested. They did the perp walk with Bates a few seasons back. They did the perp walk with Anna this time. Interesting how they find all these witnesses. Is Green dead? If so, why not the story? Or, if it is meant to linger, couldn't it be done with more...interest? Seriously, this storyline has moved with the speed of an 18th-Century funeral procession.

 

* Bates waxing menacing

 

* Susan Flintshire returns. Another cardboard cutout villain, a shrew. Meh. Fellowes really doesn't like his blackhats very complex. They are never more than a cliche.

 

* Mary alone. At least Carson was there to express Fellowes's view that she is BETTER than Gillingham.

 

* Gillingham and Mabel. They were on-screen for 20 seconds. It would have been excellent if Mabel had said, "Sorry, Mary, we have invitations for Edith, and Branson, and your parents..."

 

* Did anyone really think that Daisy was going to leave the Abbey?

 

* Edith happy. I was growing tired of Mopey Edith. This was Edith as she should be, mostly.

 

* Mary being a SUPREME B**** toward Edith. How unusual. "We'll all go out to lunch, even YOU, Edith." Fellowes likes his favorite child unlikable. 

 

* Branson starting pack-up for Boston. See ya, Sybbie.

 

* Robert being more like the Lord of S1 than the Lord of the past few seasons. I think Fellowes finally got it that The Lord of the Manor had become The Boor of the Brits to the audience.

 

* And Robert putting together that Marigold is a love child.

 

* Thomas saves the day AGAIN! Against the Evil Denker. Wonder if the new footman will be the new "Uncle Thomas" love interest. Uncle Thomas. A name from Uncle Julian.

 

All in all, not a bad episode, not a great one, either.

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The thought just came to me: I wonder if Susan is the result when you have a Mary-Edith dynamic that bleeds down to the next generation. Violet is Susan's aunt, right? So it could be that Susan's mother is Violet's younger sister, and Violet and her sister had a Mary-Edith thing going, and all of the Edithian resentment and outrage at mistreatment got communicated to her daughter as a sense of the world being against them and everyone else being terrible, and boom, there you get someone as nasty as Susan. 

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I loved that Thomas used his powers for good this time around.  

 

And I am now an even more enthusiastic Baxter/Moseley (Baxley?) shipper!

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Mary and Carson will forever and always be my favorite couple on this show.  He knows she isn't perfect, but he absolutely adores her and is always there for her.  Love them!

 

As always, Mary's disdain for Edith warms my heart.  As does her love for Tom.  I thought it was interesting how quick she was to do exactly as he instructed at the restaurant with Rose.  Clearly she has great respect for him and sees him as a beloved brother.

 

And because I do believe that Fellowes hates Edith, I have to wonder if they picked a kid who is....well, let's say a little less traditionally adorable than perhaps George and Sybbie, on purpose to play Marigold.

 

Also, Spratt amuses me.  I don't know why, he just does.

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Look, Thomas, I realize Grindr didn't exist then, but just go to the nearby park & get your rocks off with strangers who are into it -- not dumb straight boys who happen come into your path of vision.  That just ain't right.

 

Now, wait a minute -- could I be wrong bout Thomas?  Were his motives pure & he actually wanted to be a nice guy & help poor dopey Andy out?  Nah, not believin' that for a sec.  This is Thomas after all.  And while Andy isn't even especially so hot or cute, he's young & has a pulse & he's nearby, so I still question Thomas's motives.

 

My take on the New Nice Thomas is that we're seeing him "Choose his own Path."   That was the point of Baxter talking about what he could achieve if he used his powers for good rather than evil.  Which is similar to what Dr. Clarkson said about his carving out the best life he can given the circumstances.  It wouldn't surprise me if he slowly started morphing into a Carson type where he is the one who takes care of the house as his family (and eventually becomes Butler when the series ends.) 

 

Although personally, I'd love for him to get a love interest, the more realistic ending for his character will be to find happiness in the love of surrogate family.  

 

PS:  I love Rose and Atticus together.  They are sparkly.   And I love the Bitchy Mary - Edith dynamic.  It's fun.

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