S05.E08: Episode Eight

[photo fox]

 

Preparations are under way for Rose's wedding, but family tensions on both sides threaten to derail proceedings. Edith's arrangement with Marigold is happily working out, but how long can she and Cora conceal the truth from Robert? Denker reveals an unexpected side to her personality, which causes trouble for more than one of the servants. With the war memorial due to be unveiled, Mrs Patmore is still upset, but Robert has something up his sleeve. Branson comes to a heart-wrenching decision, and the storm clouds that have been gathering over Anna and Bates finally burst.

 

[DeepRunner]

Having seen the recaps, all I can say is...


REALLY?????? Can't Julian Fellowes do something besides torture the Bateseseseses-izzzzzzz? 'Fraid not...

I know there are many in the community who believe the Bates have overstayed their welcome, and who knows, maybe they have. But come on, Anna Bates as a killer? Unoriginal and retread...Next thing you know, Mary will be slamming Edith for no reason at all...oh, wait...

This is one of the reasons I am alternately eager to see the show when it comes Over Here (nod to one of the best Fringe episodes ev-uh) and feel dread in equal measure because it appears more recycled than a soda can.

Oy, VEY!!!!

[bluebonnet]

Well good lawdy, this show managed to shock and awe me by creating a completely new and fresh storyline.  They allowed Edith to be happy.  Not cliffhanger happy, but legitimately happy.  The yellow labs were probably the reason for the "everything bad always happens to Edith" curse.  Good riddance Isis.  

[panthergirl13]

Well, in spite all the issues I have with this show... Mrs. Patmore brings the waterworks for me every time.

[Asha124]

Bates in a prison? Check. Someone learns someone else's secret? Check. Thomas trying to be nice? Check. Someone acting spiteful and then being smacked down? Check. Carson stroking Mary's ego? Check. Somebody talking about leaving? Check, check and check.

Honestly, if Tom really leaves in the CS I will have one less reason to watch next year.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Asha124

[DianeDobbler]

The episode did hit the usual points - disappointed that Rose met someone two episodes ago and marries him in the finale. Great.

 

I got this weird Edith/Tom/Mary vibe. "I'll miss you!" "Mary says she's going to be devastated but I'LL miss you as well!" Oh geez. That said, I did enjoy the foursome scenes, played on more or less equal terms, and I felt that Mary's "Even Edith" was cheap (not on Mary's part so much, but the writing). Edith looked good AGAIN in this episode, particularly in her outfit at luncheon. And it least it wasn't an episode where Mary was the principal character. I actually felt most of the women looked better than Mary in this episode. That hair is just too severe. Mabel looked adorable, Edith wore clothes that were gorgeous for her coloring, some of Rose's clothes were a little mumsy (as she said) but her blessing gown was nice, and Mary just looks SO colorless. If she were more of a goth type character, had more of an edge, in her life or attitude, it might be carried off better, but she's just a wealthy aristocrat with pretty mainstream interests, and I think the severity of her wardrobe helps to flatten out her character, who hasn't been helped by somewhat one note acting and bad storylines this series. Matthew always warmed her up a bit, even despite herself.

 

I always like nice Thomas and since I usually have to wait a really long time to GET nice Thomas, I'm glad to get two episodes or whatever it was. Not such a fan of Denker. I gather the actress is meant to be a coup but for me she lacks the charisma and chops of the other mature ladies on the show, Maggie Smith, Penelope Wilton, Rachel Cassidy, Leslie Nichols, Phyllis Logan.

 

Atticus's dad reminded me distractingly of Yul Brynner. It's so striking I think the actor must cultivate it intentionally.

 

Oh. Totally forgot the Bates. Do Not Care. I think Fellowes knows it. He might have planned it to be a big deal by the finale, but it was written in a somewhat cursory way, not nearly amped up a la previous Bates dramas such as the original murder mystery and Anna's rape. Now it's, well, we set this up so we have to play it, but we're going to try to just get through it without spending too much time.

Edited November 10, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[CofCinci]

I couldn't give two shits about the Bates being torn apart by prison drama again, but I did get a case of the feels at the thought of Mrs. Patmore and Daisy breaking up.

 

Was that Thomas' nephew?

[DianeDobbler]

Andy wasn't Thomas's nephew - it was just an expression I guess signaling the audience that Thomas's intentions towards Andy are honorable and he's long past the days of sneaking into footman's bedrooms and making a pass.

[Dust Bunny]

That was ok. Nothing exceptional. Patmore was great, though.

 

I feel like this show is perpetually marking time. At least with Matthew there was a feeling of forward progression - a young, promising person growing into the role of a leader in the midst of a changing world. With Dan Stevens' departure, this show has been spinning its wheels. Mary could have taken the place of Matthew. Instead, it's all about her stupid suitors. Tom could have taken that role too, but he was reduced to unnecessarily apologizing for Bunting.

 

Such squandered potential. This show is a shell of what might have been. 

[spottedreptile]

I really enjoyed the episode. I've probably lowered my expectations a fair bit since Season 1, but I still love anything with Tom in it, he's become such a strong character I can't believe they're going to write him out. I can lose the Bates any time. Honestly isn't there anywhere else for them to go but rehashing this silly mystery every season? Surely nobody's on tenterhooks any more.

 

Rose has been a delight, wish we'd had more of her rather than Mary and her one note waspishness these days. Even the "even Edith" comment sounded clumsy. 

 

Mary just looks SO colorless.

Perhaps that's what they are trying to say, but she's getting too boring for me to care now. Like her father. 

 

I want to see Edith as a successful publisher away from her AWFUL family, Tom as the master of Downton, Violet and Isobel with their December happinesses, and Mary left behind wondering why she's not the flavour of the month any more. Oh, and Anna finds a dashing fella and dumps her morose partner. Daisy sets up a catering business in Yorkshire with Mrs Patmore, and Carson and Mrs Hughes set up a cottage and live HEA. The rest of 'em - meh.

 

P.S. I'm betting that Bates will try to take the fall for Anna now. That "she won't be convicted" sounded a tad too declarative. Sigh.

[Tardassian]

Welp, there wasn't a single episode in this season's series that didn't have me shouting, "FUCK YOU, LADY MARY!" Can she be killed off for the Christmas special?

[Tetraneutron]

 

I feel like this show is perpetually marking time.

Yup. That's the fundamental problem with this show. It's both about how awesome Downton is, but also How The World Is Changing and the old life is dying out. So in order for the characters we like to be happy, everyone has to leave. There really is no reason for Tom not to go to America. The only one I cuold think of is if they made Sybbie a character and made it so he doesn't have any other family. And they didn't. Same with Edith. She has a job she's allegedly good at in London, and no place at Downton, which will soon belong to her sister who she hates and vice versa. Why is she even there?

 

And Daisy. What are they even doing with her? I like the idea of her wanting to move to London and make something of herself. The show hasn't done that. Everyone who leaves the Downton employ just has a similar helper-type position but in a business rather than a house. (When Thomas tried to be a businessman it blew up in his face). Or sell jams off a tenant farm or whatever it was that Mr. Mason proposed. What if she wanted to be a professional of some kind? How would that even work? Even the naive Daisy has to realize that chances are the days of running a kitchen in a great house are done, and she better plan for a different future. I thought giving Moseley a backstory out of nowhere about wanting to be a teacher but not having the opportunity would be setting that up. But I suppose they have to keep someone at Downton or there's no season 6.

 

And Bates and Anna - at this point, you expect the rest of the house to not even be surprised one or the other is getting arrested. The charcters on this show are entirely too nice. It makes conflict impossible. Even Thomas. I like scheming, self-interested Thomas. I miss him.

[Badger]

I think this was my favorite episode of the season and I didn't that would be the case when I first read the spoilers.  I wasn't thrilled about the Anna storyline getting dragged out but that was about the only thing I didn't like.  And actually, I think it's going to be about her acknowledging publicly what happened to her.  By "publicly", I don't mean she's going to alert the media, but I do think she is going to tell someone besides the people who are closest to her: Mr. Bates, Lady Mary and Mrs. Hughes.

 

I knew Robert would figure out the truth about Marigold but it was funny that it was that she reminded him of Michael Gregson.  

 

Loved Thomas using his skills for good rather than evil.

[Llywela]

Also, I am SO glad they are not dragging out the Marigold mystery, though I couldn't help but laugh when Lord Grantham was like, "She reminds me of someone... Michael Gregson." Dude, what about her looking like your own daughter? Oh well, at least it was some fun comic relief. Donk is always good for that.

Robert was hilarious to me in that scene. He finds out his daughter has had an illegitimate child - scandal, scandal! - and has brought said child into his own home to be raised as a foundling, and we've had all that 'Papa must never find out!' business, and then he does find out...and his only reaction is, 'There's a secret and I'm in on it for once! I'm one of the cool kids now!' :D

[Tetraneutron]

Which I'm sorry, is not realistic.

 

Not that I expect this to be a documentary, but can we have SOME drama? SOME conflict? Not everyone being instantly understanding and having 21st century mores all the time. What's the point in setting the show in the 1920s if no one is going to act like it? Not even lip service to the idea that the entire family is expected to lie to Marigold's face about who she is, and her life is going to be very hard. It's even worse because Robert doesn't even know Edith and Gregson were actively planning to be married and only slept together once. For all he knows she's been his mistress for years. Or glossing over the fact that no one suspects that the "ward" of the Earl's daughter is really her child. When Mary had the Pamuk situation everyone was paranoid because they knew the damage it could do to her rep, and therefore, her life - and the rest of the Crawley family as well. No one's even thinking about that with Edith. No one's worried that word will get out, that Mrs. Drewe will be so angry she blabs, that someone figures it out.

 

I suppose a big theme of the show is Robert having mellowed - going from having a heart attack when his daughter wears pants to dinner to seeing his working-class Irish son in law as a member of the family. But come on.

 

Also, I hope Isabel accepts the proposal. It's ridiculous for a character whose only real trait is loudly sticking up for the liberal, modern viewpoint, to suffer and lose out because of some aristocratic dicks.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As I was watching this episode, it occurred to me how little happened this season. Isis died, Rose got married, Edith has Marigold living at the house with her cousins, Anna got arrested for murder, and Tom has decided to go to Boston. That's it?

 

I hope that both Violet and Isobel marry their respective suitors (but of course retain their independence and their friendship with each other). It's great whenever people find love but especially when they are older. I find Violet and her prince much more compelling in that they have a history (as opposed to Lord Merton very sweetly declaring that he loves Isobel, only because he doesn't seem to know her very well yet).

 

I liked Tom's conversations with both Mary and Edith. When Tom asked Mary if she thought she would feel this way back when he drove her to her dress fittings in town, I found myself wondering the same thing about Violet and Isobel. I am glad that Edith verbalized her feelings about how Tom is the only one who seems to get that she is still mourning for Gregson and that Mary doesn't get the monopoly on missing him when he goes.

 

I like that Barrow's niceness was linked to being aware of people's shadiness. Takes one to know one!

[penelope79]

 

but I still love anything with Tom in it, he's become such a strong character I can't believe they're going to write him out.

 

Don't worry, in the Christmas Special episode we will find out he is not going anywhere, he will either end up with Mary or Edith: the "hints" are anvil-sized by now. :)

[Andorra]

I couldn't enjoy the episode at all, since I'm too worried about Tom being written out. Even though I hope (and expect) that he's going to stay, I won't be able to watch the show without a heavy heart.

 

I also know if he would leave the show would be definitely over for me.

 

I didn't care much about the Atticus/Rose wedding. It was nice eye candy etc, but seriously? Who can care about a wedding with a guy we have met 3 episodes before? The whole thing felt so rushed and I couldn't find it in me to care.

 

I'm also completely neutral about the whole Banna mess. It was clear as the day for the whole series where this would end and so I wasn't either surprised nor bothered. I bet she will be out on Christmas and next year we'll have the next catastrophy in store for them.

 

It was nice to see so many brother/sister scenes between Tom and Mary and Tom and Edith. Their relationship is the best in the show and I hope we will see much more of it in the future.

 

Other than that I loved Mrs Patmore, I'm getting fed up with revolutionary Daisy, I loved Thomas and I thought drunk Denker was a hoot.

 

I don't like the prince and his storyline with Violet. To give Violet a romantic storyline is just crazy IMO. She needs to be the independent matriarch of the show and really doesn't need romance in her age, seriously! That said I hope Isobel marries Merton. I liked them so much more than the whole Rose/Atticus romance.

[DianeDobbler]

I feel like this show is perpetually marking time. At least with Matthew there was a feeling of forward progression - a young, promising person growing into the role of a leader in the midst of a changing world. With Dan Stevens' departure, this show has been spinning its wheels. Mary could have taken the place of Matthew. Instead, it's all about her stupid suitors. Tom could have taken that role too, but he was reduced to unnecessarily apologizing for Bunting.

 

Oh God, it completely is marking time. But Matthew's story only lasted a couple of seasons. By Series 3 they were clearly "Tom"ing him - he was still living at the main house, which was meant to be a temporary situation, and when he had his crisis of conscience of the inheritence, he ended up using the money for Downton. He was going to be Downton-neutered himself. His forward progression was already halted.

 

In this episode I was thinking that wouldn't it be nice if they switched out Lord Merton for Shrimpy and he and Isobel got together.

 

Not crazy about Violet and the prince -think it's there so she doesn't look TOO pathetic over losing Isobel, having some action of her own. But I don't really care about it in its own right

 

Susan (Mrs. Shrimpy) is as OTT as the Merton sons.

 

I expected the Marigold situation to turn out exactly as it has - well, not EXACTLY, but it being no big deal. There's no worry about lying to Marigold as she grows up; the situation will long since have been resolved so she knows who she is.

 

Felt there were two awkward bits of dialogue - one was Mary's "Even Edith." - just shoehorned in there, very contrived. And tiring. Mary's allowed to suggest all four have lunch on a Tuesday without reminding US that she's not crazy about Edith. It didn't feel like a natural thing, but swung straight at us. The other was Cora asking Robert if he'll love Marigold. I know she meant even though illegitimate and all that (and perhaps even though he hasn't known her since birth), and him saying "I think I will" and "Surprising even myself." but something about it came off as gee, he thinks he might be able to love a child of Edith's - that's not something he ever expected.

 

Mosley used to get on my nerves something terrible, up to as recently as when he dyed his hair. But Baxter has done wonders for him, and so has the revelation that he wanted to be a teacher. I love all the museum stuff, and the three of them having that outing.

 

I expect Daisy and Mrs. Patmore will never part -  she'll inherit the farm, Mrs. Patmore will have her local cottage, she'll be a surrogate mom forever. I'm not quite sure what Daisy WANTS. It's great she wants to get on with her studies, but towards what end? Is it all so she manages the farm properly down the line?

 

Totally agree about the Tom/Edith/Mary anvils. OY!

 

Didn't even find the Atticus/Rose wedding much in the way of eye candy. Don't know why. Maybe everything looked overly fussy or something.

[Cramps]

Did anyone time how many seconds Robert got onscreen devoted to the reveal of Marigold's parenthood? Was it over a minute or less than a minute?

I'm so glad they didn't play it out longer as that might have meant taking time away from Mary's haircut or Isis the dog.

Mr. Fellowes I love you, but you really need some help with your plotting and pacing

Edited November 10, 2014 by Cramps

[kpw801]

Don't worry, in the Christmas Special episode we will find out he is not going anywhere, he will either end up with Mary or Edith: the "hints" are anvil-sized by now. :)

I think Tom will end up with Edith.  He admires her writing and seems to be protective of her.  He "rescued" Sybil from the superficial posh lifestyle and I think he will be the one to "rescue" Edith from her own lack of self esteem.  All three (Tom, Edith and Mary) share the experience of being bereaved too young and too soon, but Edith and Tom share the experience of not quite belonging and I don't think Mary will ever be able to understand what that feels like.  Tom is extremely perceptive.  He is the only one in the family (as another poster mentioned), that "gets" how and why she is still grieving Michael Gregson.  I don't think he would judge Edith for having a baby out of wedlock because he knows what it is like to be driven by passion and love that you cannot always control.  Surely that is the only reason he dared give voice to the longing and love he felt for Sybil so long ago.  I think he and Edith getting together would NOT be a case of them "settling" but a case of Providential pairing of two souls with a lot of love to give and an appreciation for the unique qualities they could both bring to their children.  I think he admires the way Edith wants to be a hands on Mom.  He talked about how he really wasn't comfortable with the 1 hour tea time visits with children who know their nannies better than they know their parents.  Mary would not be the kind of mother he would want to raise Sybbie.  We'll see how it goes.  That is what I think, but I wouldn't gamble on it.

[Llywela]

I expect Daisy and Mrs. Patmore will never part -  she'll inherit the farm, Mrs. Patmore will have her local cottage, she'll be a surrogate mom forever. I'm not quite sure what Daisy WANTS. It's great she wants to get on with her studies, but towards what end? Is it all so she manages the farm properly down the line?

I think the point this episode was trying to make is that Daisy doesn't know what she wants, because she's never been aware of having any real options before. Yes, the farm has been on offer for quite some time, but it's always been a 'some day' thing rather than a concrete plan. It offers her a secure future, but isn't something she's chosen for herself. Daisy's education ended when she was very young and she's spent much of her life since then as a skivvy, so she's never had the opportunity to broaden her horizons, which is a good part of the reason she couldn't contemplate going to America when she had the offer. She's now a trained cook, but she's grown into that role so gradually, as an extension of what she already did, that it's hard for her to see it as the skilled profession it is, since it still keeps her chained to the kitchens at Downton, where she's been since she was a young child. She said it in this episode - it had never occurred to her that fine things like reading for pleasure or viewing art could ever be within her grasp, they were things that rich people did. But now she's had a bit of learning and is striving to continue that, her eyes have been opened to the possibilities out there...but she has no idea what to do with that knowledge. She simply knows now that she is capable of more than she ever realised, and that art and literature have suddenly become accessible to her. That knowledge is thrilling and liberating, bringing with it tantalising possibilities, but at the same time she is still tied, if only by her love for Mrs Patmore and Mr Mason.

[kpw801]

Anna/Bates. I JUST CAN'T!

 

Me too.  I streamed it and recorded it on my computer.  I just fast forwarded through the Banna mess.  I can't deal with it  Too tiresome!  Too repetitive.  Mrs. Hughes mentioned they were shadowed by sorrow... if that is supposed to entice the viewers into some kind of sympathetic voyerurism to see where they end up, no thanks.  I just don't even want to watch those two anymore.  Someone else mentioned earlier that it didn't even make sense for Scotland Yard to put so much manpower into investigating the death of this guy based on someone saying he said "what are you doing here?" or some such nonsense.  It just seems that JF is doing to Banna what he has so relentlessly done to Edith and I just can't watch anymore.  Again, like someone else mentioned, Monica Jones of the Grand was hanged for killing her rapist.  You know what? if they hang Anna, I don't care.  I hope Bates jumps his crippled butt off a bridge somewhere.  I like the characters but this story line has ruined it for me.

 

Wonder if Downton will be lost eventually in the storyline, and that gives us the next spin off of Tom, and everyone going to America.

 

I lol at Violet having to sit down at the Prince's suggestiveness! Her face. She is just gold.

 

Where are Rose and Atticus going to live. I enjoy her character I hope we'll see her still.

Edited November 10, 2014 by kpw801

[Andorra]

I would see Edith Tom as complete settling for both sides. He had the most beautiful Crawley sister and then would get the grey mouse instead. He had the one who was confident and passionate and optimistic and would get the pessimistic one, who always stood in the shadows and who let life (and her family) push her around all the time. How could Tom ever feel for Edith what he felt for Sybil? The thought is beyond me.

 

And Edith? She would get a nice husband. Someone who would treat her well, but who would always think of her beautiful sister first when it came to his one true love. She doesn't deserve that. She needs someone who loves her above all and not as the consolation prize.

[darkestboy]

Okayish finale. Nice that Rose and Atticus tied the knot, even if the former's mother did try to stop proceedings.

Rose's father and Atticus's mother are likeable. Rose's mother and Atticus's father are not.

Robert figured out that Marigold was his granddaughter was a little unexpected but in a good way. The sooner this Edith plot is done with, the better.

I have a horrible feeling this Mary/Gillingham stuff is going to be continued to drag out.

Tom is clearly off at Christmas then.

Andy is nice. Can he come back? Was it me or was there a vibe with him and Thomas?

Couldn't care less about Denker or even Anna being arrested now, 7/10

[saki]

I really don't want to see either Edith or Mary with Tom.  After Sybil, I don't think he could settle for either of them - Edith is nothing like as strong as Sybil and Mary is so cold.  Tom couldn't possibly be happy with someone who didn't have the guts that Sybil had (which Edith just doesn't) or someone whose parenting style is as aloof as Mary's (I doubt George would even recognise Mary at this point.)  I think Edith would be the better fit - like Sybil, she has interests outside Downton, and I think Tom would need that - but neither of them are right for Tom. 

 

Mary didn't love Matthew enough to marry him if he wasn't going to be the Earl - I don't see her loving Tom enough to overcome him being an Irish Catholic land steward.  I think Edith is the type of person who is capable of loving almost anyone who loves her but I think she would struggle too much with the idea of Sybil - I think she would be always comparing herself with Sybil.

 

I don't understand why Tom's storyline is all about Boston or Downton.  There are other options here!  He could go and live in Liverpool or London, places with Irish communities.  Sybil should grow up with contact with her Irish side as well as the Crawley side. I also don't think it is healthy for her to grow up in the same manner as George when their future prospects are so different.  She won't have that much money and her origins will limit her marriage prospects, he is the heir to an Earldom.  At the very least, Tom should insist on moving into the steward's cottage on the estate - Sybbie can still spend time at the Abbey, even share a nanny with George, but it would be better for him to put a little distance between them.

[Superpole2000]

This was certainly worth watching for typical Downton reasons, but of course, there were typical Downton annoyances. In particular, Rose's mother lacked any subtlety or realism whatsoever. Every single line from her was cringeworthy, to the point where it lost its effect. It reminded me of Michael Scott fake-shooting his acting partners during his improv classes in The Office.

 

I liked that Robert figured out the Edith mess, but the resolution was way too quick to be worth the season of buildup. If you take 7+ episodes to build up drama, do not release the tension in 7 seconds.

 

Mary's line of "Even Edith..." simply had to be followed by one of the other three people in the group firing back at Mary for being a jerk. Who would just stand there in silence while another person in their presence was attacked for no good reason? That took me right out of that scene, which is a shame because I liked the premise of the four of them getting together outside of the house.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Superpole2000

[DianeDobbler]

I think we were meant to take Mary's "Even Edith" as sort of sardonic or wry - a comment on her own historical attitude towards Edith, and not really an insult directed at Edith herself. It was just so terribly forced and awkward. Fellowes can't let go of his set pieces. Shoehorning the Dowager witticism/bon mot in whether or not it's organic is one thing he does all the time, and spending a good part of this episode showing the four "siblings" and unable to NOT have Mary say something about Edith. It's such juvenile writing. This was one instance where I didn't take it as an insult but rather the reverse, sort of an acknowledgment of her past attitude rather than a real example of her doing it again. It just played in an awkward way, but not, IMO, because Mary meant it. I wish he'd give the audience some credit. I much preferred the bits before that, when Edith asked Tom and Mary if they worried about their children when away from them. That exchange achieved two things - showed the attitudinal/emotional divide still existed between the sisters but at the same time, showed they were becoming more peers/sibling like because Edith actually asked the question in the first place. I also took Mary's remark about "don't leave me here with just Edith" as another thing she didn't entirely mean, but was using to express her distress over losing Tom and even Rose.

 

Re the Bates, I thought it was funny that after everything washed out, only poor Mrs. Hughes got tagged with showing distress over the Bates, and after the requisite catch in her voice, Carson was all "Oh come on now, everything's going to be fine, we've got better things to talk about!" Rewind back to S1 or whenever it was, every conversation seemed to center on Bates and his predicament. Here, there was drama when the arrest was made, but after that nobody seemed terribly preoccupied with them. At all.

 

I HOPE that the way this season played out - uber focused on Mary and her suitors, short shrift to other characters, just some obnoxious writing - followed by a final few episodes where Fellowes' writing appeared to adjust to some negative feedback - augers well for Season 6.

[Cramps]

Could someone tell me what religion Atticus's family is? The show never really mentioned it.

And seriously, if you're going to do a story about how important Judaism is to the family, maybe incorporate it in some way into the show other than by mentioning it constantly and cryptically saying that you can't just have a blessing.

By the way, I've always thought the original three Crawley sisters marrying atypical grooms was basically a re telling of Fiddler on the Roof!

[charis]

Atticus' family is intended to be Jewish, Cramps, but the show can't seem to decide which way it wants to handle them.  In the timeframe of the show, reform Judaism was already well-established (Berlin had a female rabbi, for goodness' sake), and the Aldridges seem to be more of the wealthy liberal "we're British first and then Jewish" mentality that would've pervaded the less-observant Jews.  But then they throw in something like "because Rose isn't Jewish their kids won't be!", which while strictly true doesn't jive with my understanding of historical reform-Jewish attitudes.  (Granted, my reading for the time period has been more central/eastern Europe, so take it with a grain of salt.)

 

IDK, I have a lot of cringe at the handling of the Aldridges.  I expect some of the stereotypes are deliberate lampshade hanging (Mama Aldridge's comment about "but we're Jewish so we pay our servants well" struck me as 95% snark), but still, kind of ham-fisted.

 

(That may be me being overly sensitive because it's getting too close to home, but still. With everything else going on that's vexing me about the show lately, and the feel that it's all gotten more ham-fisted and heavy-handed and anvilicious and focussing more heavily on Mary/Bates/Anna, who are the three characters I care about least of all ... yeah, it's really killing my desire to keep watching.)

[kpw801]

I would see Edith Tom as complete settling for both sides. He had the most beautiful Crawley sister and then would get the grey mouse instead. He had the one who was confident and passionate and optimistic and would get the pessimistic one, who always stood in the shadows and who let life (and her family) push her around all the time. How could Tom ever feel for Edith what he felt for Sybil? The thought is beyond me.

 

Not necessarily it would sort of be like the splendor in the grass thing.  No one is ever going to be the same after the first love.  Everyone Mary loves after Matthew is going to be second best.  We want to see Tom happy but people are like snowflakes.  Everyone is different.  We keep thinking of Edith as the "little grey mouse".  That might have been her in season 1 and 2 but she is growing as a person.  What Tom wants is someone who could be a mother to Sybbie, who would make it possible (I think) for him not to have to leave Downton and take her away.  They could get away from the abbey by taking a house in the village or moving into the manager's house.  I think them working out their relationship and possibly some jealousy on Mary's part would be very interesting.

 

And Edith? She would get a nice husband. Someone who would treat her well, but who would always think of her beautiful sister first when it came to his one true love. She doesn't deserve that. She needs someone who loves her above all and not as the consolation prize.

[Avaleigh]

I don't suppose there's any way that Prince Kuragin is working Violet so that he won't have to live in that set up for the Russian refugees anymore? I hate to sound cynical but I just don't get it. If they'd wanted it to seem sweet and innocent to me they would have shown the two of them develop an easy relationship where they're always chatting, playing games, reading, making the other laugh, etc. Violet could have asked him and one or two others to stay and they could have developed a comfortable routine with the two of them worrying about how best to formalize the arrangement without it becoming awkward or embarrassing. I feel like this could have been interesting but JF chose to write this for characters who are a lot older than he seems to think they are. Ugh, I hate putting it this way because I don't see myself as ageist at all I just think that there's a more realistic way of doing something like this.

 

I'm glad that Isobel isn't giving up on Merton. I wonder if JF wanted to have some sense of fan reaction before he committed the story one way or the other. 

 

I think we were meant to take Mary's "Even Edith" as sort of sardonic or wry - a comment on her own historical attitude towards Edith, and not really an insult directed at Edith herse

 

 

I thought Mary was just joking. Tom and Rose seemed to get it and they both smiled and had amused expressions on their faces. In fact, in a different scene I noticed that Tom was even chuckling when Mary had the line about Edith acting as though she'd invented motherhood. I feel like Tom, Rose, and even Edith (see what I did there ;-) ) seem like they get Mary's sense of humor.

 

I really liked the scenes with the four younger people of the house. I also lol at Rose's comment about how she plans on leaving all of her children to nanny. All of the comments about how Mary doesn't spend enough time with George and I can't help but think that this attitude was fairly typical for most aristocratic women. George just isn't getting that much attention from the script, I've never felt that Mary is being a neglectful mother but more that she's behaving as someone who is living in a particular time and setting. Her relationship with Sybbie seems sweet and natural IMO. I thought the scene of Robert playing with Sybbie and Mary calling out to him to let Sybbie win was cute and touching. To me it seems like they've really established a family dynamic and I can see why Tom is hesitant to want to leave it all.

 

As for the potential Tom/Mary/Edith triangle--

 

I definitely feel like seeds were planted on both sides.

 

How could Tom ever feel for Edith what he felt for Sybil? The thought is beyond me.

 

 

I don't think Tom will ever feel what he felt for Sybil again. If Tom is trying to recapture what he felt with Sybil then he's going to be alone forever because IMO that's impossible. 

 

That being said I don't think there's any reason to think that Tom can't have a fulfilling marriage with either Crawley sister. Do I think Edith is the one? No, I don't think she's right for Tom at all and I don't really think they have much in common. At the same time I don't think it would be the worst idea for Tom and even though it wouldn't please me as a viewer I can see how it might be able to happen under the right circumstances. 

 

With Tom and Mary it seems like they were shown to be alone together or standing together and I feel like they seem very comfortable with one another in general. I haven't seen any signs of passion yet though. I'm curious to know if the CS will touch on the possibility between the two of them. 

 

Other Stuff--

 

One of my favorite lines was Mary saying that Lord Sinderby is "as stiff as a board". Seriously, can we imagine this guy ever genuinely laughing?

 

Lol that Susan's single comment to Atticus was "What an unusual name."

 

I liked the scene where all of the women are viewing Rose's going away outfit. It reminded me of Mary showing off hers before her own wedding. I also love that all of the women were included no matter their age.

 

I thought Susan's behavior in certain respects felt very real. The way she demanded to have her own room (or an undoubtedly posh hotel) rather than share with Shrimpy while knowing that her circumstances have changed so much that she no longer even has a personal maid? That felt genuine and in line with stories of real life fallen aristocrats who would still behave almost as though their hosts are doing themselves a favor by having them to stay.

 

(Mama Aldridge's comment about "but we're Jewish so we pay our servants well" struck me as 95% snark), but still, kind of ham-fisted.

 

 

I cringed here.

[bluebonnet]

 

IDK, I have a lot of cringe at the handling of the Aldridges.  I expect some of the stereotypes are deliberate lampshade hanging (Mama Aldridge's comment about "but we're Jewish so we pay our servants well" struck me as 95% snark), but still, kind of ham-fisted.

This seemed like Mama Aldridge was simply taking the insult away from Mama Rose.  Mama Rose was being a twat and Mama Aldridge was calling her on it.  Sort of like "yes you mean to insult me but eff you because I know all the insults and so I'll take away your ability to insult".  

[Cramps]

Charis- even with very reform upper class assimilated Jews the Matrilineal passing on of Judaism would definitely have been an issue. I'm actually surprised that since it was of such importance to the family that conversion was never discussed on the show. (Of course that would have taken time away from discussions of Mary's hair).

Bluebonnet --I didn't mind the "We pay our servants well," response--as I too felt it was a snarky retort made to say "You are embarrassing yourself with your disgusting anti-Semitism -- and by the way, unlike you we can still afford servants, now do shut the hell up ."

Edited November 10, 2014 by Cramps

[abbyzenn]

I enjoyed the episode as well as the whole season.  So much much better than last year's - which I think was the worst.

 

I'm  surprised no one has mentioned Mary's remark about "when you read in the paper I've been arrested for murder.  You'll know it's your fault" (or so)  I thought that was quite funny.  I do like Mary and Tom's relationship this season.  But I do not want him to marry her.

 

Thought it odd that Tony and Mabel showed up at the reception. 

 

I'm surprised Shrimpy stayed with Susan for so long.  Boy is she awful.

 

Sorry to see Tom leave since he's my favorite character.  I'm surprised the actor wants to leave.  I've looked on line and can't find where he's been working on anything this break so I don't know why he'd want to leave a sure thing.  But then I just read a post in the spoilers thread where someone posted an interview of him and Matthew Goode and he said he'd had an offer this year while they were filming Downton but he couldn't get released and he was really frustrated about that. So maybe that led him to make the decision to leave.  But it's odd that Hugh filed Monuments Men while working on Downton, and McGovern filmed something in June/July of this year.  I can't imagine what would happen on the show that would make Tom change his mind other than Robert dying.

[kpw801]

Well good lawdy, this show managed to shock and awe me by creating a completely new and fresh storyline.  They allowed Edith to be happy.  Not cliffhanger happy, but legitimately happy.  The yellow labs were probably the reason for the "everything bad always happens to Edith" curse.  Good riddance Isis.  

Well I wonder if they will change the opening credits - the dog butt in the next series.

[DianeDobbler]

We don't know that Tom is leaving or Allen Leach being written off. This is just story.

 

I'm  surprised no one has mentioned Mary's remark about "when you read in the paper I've been arrested for murder.  You'll know it's your fault" (or so)  I thought that was quite funny.  I do like Mary and Tom's relationship this season.  But I do not want him to marry her.

 

 

I thought it was wry but also completely off-tone, because there's no reason (save Pamuck, lo these how many years later) that Mary would want to murder Edith but plenty for Edith wanting to murder Mary. However, I don't believe any of Mary's Edith barbs were meant to be taken seriously, rather, they were purposefully written to NOT be stinging, IMO, to sort of protect Mary from some of the reaction to her prior, nastier Edith remarks. When you have her do the same thing but the spin is different, it may urge people to receive these lines less seriously. I thought the whole effect was unearned, and pretty cheap. I don't think anybody would say "Where did Mary's barbs about Edith go?" If Fellows backed off them. He can show the dynamic simply in other ways, such as the exchange about worrying about your kids.

Edited November 10, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[Anoia]

Loved the fanservice (?) from the detective:

Detective: Miss...

Mary: I am Lady Mary Crawley.

Detective: I wouldn't care if you were queen of upper egypt.

 

Cringed at the scene between Tom and Mary regarding him moving to America. Looked like another foreshadowing of them being together.

 

Realized (yeah, I'm slow) that Mary is basically Rose's mom. Only Rose still had her dad.

[ZoloftBlob]

Lord Grantham had to be shipped off to America to accommodate the Monuments Men production, though.

 

Yeah for all the talk that it should be easy as pie for the actors to do side jobs, I get the impression that filming eight episodes of Downton isn't as simple as people want to think it is. Highclere is pretty far north of London, and its not like actors who want to do things can just skip down.

[Glade]

This season has been stunningly pointless and dull--much like the aristocracy themselves, who's problems and consequences are a far, far away place from the people they employ, like the sad-sack Bates's who are filled with tragedy/farce.  I didn't care about Mary's suitors (neither does she), but seeing them all vanish into thin air wasn't satisfying either.  All of these time jumps are obnoxious.  I do hope that Violet and Isobel get their new husbands/paramours.  It's too bad Shrimpy and Atticus' mother weren't at Edith's wedding, all that was needed were some sharp words to shove Anthony back to the altar, instead of Robert and Violet cheerleading his departure and otherwise voicing their disapproval at every possible oppurtunity.  I want Thomas to have a lover, not be an uncle to an uncomfortable straight lad.  I missed Rosamund this episode.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Glade

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As tired as I am of the Anna/Bates murder plot, I laughed and laughed when Mary tried to get totally imperious with the police telling them that she was forbidding them from taking Anna to jail. She has such a high opinion of what she thinks her position entitles her to that I loved when the police told her that he didn't give a crap who she was. It's about time someone told her that being the daughter of an earl doesn't make her the boss of everyone. I think she genuinely likes Anna, but all I could imagine was a thought bubble over her head saying, "But who will fasten my buttons and procure birth control for me if Anna's in jail?"

[Tetraneutron]

Is that true, though? Wouldn't the local big shot throwing his weight around really get the police to back off? It's one thing to bully a servant on zero evidence, it's another to do it when the Earl and the heiress decide to back her against you.

 

 

I want Thomas to have a lover, not be an uncle to an uncomfortable straight lad.

It might be cool to explore that. The closest we got was the Pilot, where we learned about his affair with the gold-digging Duke. I always thought something like that would have both comic and dramatic possibilities. There's the inherent danger in not being able to let anyone know. They could blackmail each other. Thomas could try tpo leverage power somehow, which, let's face it, is the best thing Thomas does. Maybe one of Mary's next batch of suitors could prefer Thomas. Or maybe some big aristocrat Robert respects.

 

Unrelated, why was Robert so eager for Mary to marry Gillingham specifically? I get that he'd want it in general - he has money and position, and there are few men now after the war, but there's no real rush, and Mary has so many other suitors it's not like she won't have another chance. For that matter, why Tony over Blake? They both inherit estates and they even look alike.

[tapplum]

Is that true, though? Wouldn't the local big shot throwing his weight around really get the police to back off? It's one thing to bully a servant on zero evidence, it's another to do it when the Earl and the heiress decide to back her against you.

 

I was wondering the same thing. While obviously the officer said what a lot of fans have been wanting to say, it seemed a very clumsy way for him to handle the situation. We don't know exactly how the case looks, but it does seem odd for a him to be so blatantly disrespectful to people whom he must realise could make his life very difficult if they put their minds to it.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I have no issue with the police doing their jobs. They interviewed people and got an eye witness who picked Anna out of the lineup. Arresting her is the next step. What should the police do? Let her go free because her boss is the daughter of an earl? That is a perversion of justice. Even if the audience knows that Anna didn't kill that guy, the police are investigating a murder and they think they have enough evidence to arrest her. If the police had said, "So sorry, milady, I didn't realize that she is the maid of a very important person so we will be closing this case," I would have been seeing red. If anyone was being disrespectful and out of line, it was Mary. But of course, she's Mary Crawley so she thinks everyone in the world exists for her benefit.

 

Of course, anyone can ask for special treatment, whether it's not arresting your maid or asking for an upgrade on your flight, but you aren't entitled to it. Mary thinks she is though because she wears her cloak of privilege wherever she goes. Even Robert knew better than to be a dick to the police and COMMAND them not to take Anna. Heh, it's a rare occasion when I think that Robert is being more rational and less snobby than anyone, least of all Mary.

Edited November 10, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Pogojoco]

The theme of this season seems to be "Let's invite people over for supper and see them be jerks to each other. And to us." It was a whole motif. 

 

I love it when they make Robert smart....but only fleetingly smart. And that Marigold reminded him of Gregson. 

 

Also, damn it, Patmore! Made me cry, just because it meant so much to her. It was a nice touch to do it right before our Remembrance Day, too. 

 

I enjoyed the cop telling Mary off, too. Heeeeeeee. Also, the bit about how Green only raped "quiet women who kept to themselves", as opposed to those slutty ones who ask for it, I guess. Carson being horrified, too. 

 

Unrelated, why was Robert so eager for Mary to marry Gillingham specifically? I get that he'd want it in general - he has money and position, and there are few men now after the war, but there's no real rush, and Mary has so many other suitors it's not like she won't have another chance. For that matter, why Tony over Blake? They both inherit estates and they even look alike.

Maybe Robert doesn't realize there are two people. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Helena Dax]

Loved the episode, I think it was great. The only thing I didn't like was the Bates drama but it made me laugh because everything was so ridiculous. Why are the writers unable to write any other kind of plot for them? 

 

Everything else was fun. Loved to see Thomas using his powers for good and we had a conversation between lady Mary and Carson, whose relationship is one of my favourite things in this show. Also, Robert was very nice, especially when he understood who Marigold really is. Although it wasn't very  realistic, tbh.

 

Molesley and Baxter's relationship is adorable and I really like what they've done to him this season.

 

I can't wait to see what happens between lady Violet and Kuragin. To tell the truth, I don't think she should accept his offer, she's got more to lose than him if they become lovers and the truth comes out. 

[tapplum]

I have no issue with the police doing their jobs. They interviewed people and got an eye witness who picked Anna out of the lineup. Arresting her is the next step. What should the police do? Let her go free because her boss is the daughter of an earl? That is a perversion of justice.

 

Yes, I quite agree, I never meant to suggest otherwise. However, it's not news that everyone is in fact not equal before the law, and it must have been obvious that Mary and Robert are the kind of people who can pull strings. Tom in all likelihood would have faced severe consequences for his involvement with those Irish aristocrats - only then the Crawleys got involved, and suddenly that was no longer the case.

 

But really I wasn't surprised that he made the arrest, but rather that he chose to be so abrasive about it. Given the lack of hands-on involvement from the Crawleys when Bates was imprisoned, I doubt this will actually occur, but surely the officer must realise there's a very real risk that his behaviour could have unpleasant consequences for him. Making an enemy of rich, connected people does run the risk of ruining one's career, then and now.

 

All that aside, the resolution of the Marigold storyline is the embodiment of anticlimax. All that buildup, tediousness and heartbreak for what? And Robert, whose slutshaming both Mary and Edith have lived in terror of, who was aghast at the notion of his family dining on food prepared by a servant who'd had a child out of wedlock - he's immediately and completely fine with his own daughter raising a bastard, begotten by a man Robert didn't even deem fit to have legitimate children with her, under his roof? Really?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

For that matter, why Tony over Blake? They both inherit estates and they even look alike.

Maybe Robert doesn't realize there are two people.

Ha, finally something that Robert and I might have in common. Honestly, whenever one of them is on the screen, I have to squint and think to figure out which one it is. They're both such bland non-entities that I can barely tell them apart and even then I always hope for Mary to say their names. Gillingham briefly got the cuckoo personality change where he refused to let Mary break up with him (making Mary the Costanza in this relationship) and then he was like oh, right, Mabel Lane Fox is okay too so I guess we'll get married instead!

 

It was nice to see Mrs. Patmore admit that she is going to miss Daisy, but part of me wishes that Daisy hadn't changed her mind, if only so she could leave Downton and see what else is out there. I really don't know what her ultimate goal is, but I don't mind education for the sake of education. She can learn math and art history and not have a job that requires either. I just like that she is learning and expanding her universe beyond the day to day of her job. Not that there's anything wrong with her job. She has gotten very good at it and she seems to enjoy cooking and baking. I just think it's good for anyone, regardless of their position or job, to look up from what they're doing and see what else is out there. It's much easier for us to do that nowadays since we have the internet at our fingertips, but back then the options were a lot more limited, especially for the working class, so I like seeing Daisy just taking classes and learning more.

[Avaleigh]

I can't wait to see what happens between lady Violet and Kuragin. To tell the truth, I don't think she should accept his offer, she's got more to lose than him if they become lovers and the truth comes out.

 

 

In some ways I don't really get the point of this story but I am still rooting to see Isobel and Violet both quietly marry and enter a different period in their lives while still being close friends. We wouldn't need a new location, we'd just see Isobel when she was visiting either Downton or the Dower House.  

 

I feel like it's unlikely that anything will happen though or else why would the writing be so that the Princess Kuragin is likely still alive? I'm assuming she's going to pop up at some point and then Violet and Kuragin will have a final goodbye. I'd like it to turn out differently though. I just can't shake the feeling that he's all gungho about this because he wants to get back to being in posh surroundings on a regular basis. Didn't he say something about how he wants his world to be beautiful again or something like that?

 

Too bad that Lord Merton didn't go to the wedding with Isobel. 

 

What the hell, I'm feeling way more invested in the love lives of the senior citizens on this show than I am with the younger characters! I can't imagine that's what JF wants from the typical viewer but there it is.

[Tetraneutron]

Yes, I quite agree, I never meant to suggest otherwise. However, it's not news that everyone is in fact not equal before the law, and it must have been obvious that Mary and Robert are the kind of people who can pull strings. Tom in all likelihood would have faced severe consequences for his involvement with those Irish aristocrats - only then the Crawleys got involved, and suddenly that was no longer the case.

That, and we saw the same thing happen when the police wanted to arrest Thomas for kissing Jimmy, and backed off when Robert told them to. Sure, by modern eyes Thomas did nothing wrong but according to the laws of the time he should be in jail. They had hard evidence and one word from Robetr and they go away. Now they're going after Anna on nothing but one eyewitness years after the fact?

 

That's why I don't get people acting like Mary was a smug snob when she tried to pull rank. That was the nicest thing she could do under the circumstances. It probably would have helped Anna more than anything else would have done. Well, at least until the deus ex machina next season that exonerates them. Just in time for Bates to have a brain tumor and Anna to be kidnapped by pirates.

 

 

All that buildup, tediousness and heartbreak for what? And Robert, whose slutshaming both Mary and Edith have lived in terror of, who was aghast at the notion of his family dining on food prepared by a servant who'd had a child out of wedlock - he's immediately and completely fine with his own daughter raising a bastard, begotten by a man Robert didn't even deem fit to have legitimate children with her, under his roof? Really?

I couldn't agree more. It's insane, especially since Robet doesn't know the circumstances. Sure, the audience knows Gregson loved and respected Edith, wanted to marry her so badly he was willing to move to Germany for a year and risk ostracism by getting divorced, and they only had sex once. But to Robert, Edith is still that same loser who chased a dull old man for years because she was so desperate to get married, was so unappealing she was dumped at the altar. And all he knows of Gregson is he had a relationship while married and is a card sharp. For all he knows he's a sleazebag, Edith is one of his many sidepieces, and he ran away to Germany after she told him she was pregnant, and the rest was Edith deliuding herself. On the other hand, it's not exactly unheard of for the aristocracy to have diiferent standards for servants as for themselves.