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S02.E05: XIII

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Miranda embarks on a journey to save the island. Eleanor opens old wounds. Rackham sniffs around a big secret. Vane must take matters into his own hands.

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I don't get what happened between Flint, Miranda, Thomas and his father. Someone please explain that to me.

Oh, I get it now. Whoa, I didn't see that coming.

Oh and fuck you Charles Vain and your ratty hair extensions.

Edited by Neurochick
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I know no one is gonna believe this, but I thought it, I kept thinking it might be...and then I freaking SAID IT! I knew it!

And yes, I did totally jump out of my chair! Still screaming and my brain is exploding!

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Wow, I have to admit I wasn't quite expecting that. I kind of thought Hamilton might have been gay but I wasn't expecting them basically outing Flint as gay. I thought maybe it would have been a weird threesome type deal like they have with Max/Jack/Anne. However, it does make what Flint saying in ep 1x7 about him not accepting England's pardon, he hasn't forgiven them(England).

 

Vane vs Flint was surprising a little how it started but the preview for next week kind of gives up the result.

 

Who knew a threesome with Anne and Max could be so awkward but the whole sticking her finger in Jack's mouth and all of their reactions was hysterical. Poor Jack, he really had no choice with the crew. The crew should really learn not to fuck with Anne Bonny. I'm sure they will learn soon

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That was a freakin' awesome reveal. I'm beyond impressed that the writers had the balls to tell this story with their main character. I absolutely love this storyline.

 

I was kinda wondering mid-way into the episode if Thomas could be gay, thus his "arrangement" with Miranda where she sleeps with who ever she wishes to. I didn't think they'd reveal that Flint and Hamilton were also involved. So, theories on Flint's sexuality? Bi? Closeted? We've seen him shag Miranda but I think it's clear now it was Thomas he loved. I tend to think he and Miranda have stayed together as some sort of loyalty to Thomas.

 

I'm glad that Billy is back  and I hope he will rejoin the crew soon. Randall is awesome. Maybe Billy will toss Silver into the sea first chance he gets. Hey, I can wish, right?

 

Don't care about Eleanor and her daddy issues.

 

Me thinks Anne is not too happy with the threesome with Max now that she's getting left out in the cold.

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Well cheers to all of you who said Thomas was probably gay; but I didn't that Thomas and Flint were sleeping together.  This makes me want to go back and watch season 1 again.  Now I remember that scene, where one of the Walrus crew was talking to Billy about taking a ship that didn't have such a great prize.  A few of the men were either killed or injured in the taking of that ship and this crew.  When they took that ship, Flint killed someone aboard, then the crew member saw Flint say to Miranda, "they're dead."  

 

I bet that one of them was Lord Hamilton, Thomas' father.  Now I get what Lord Hamilton was saying, he knew his son was sleeping with Flint.  

 

Is Flint gay, bi, or just in love with Thomas?   It seemed like he was sleeping with Miranda too.  Interesting that the episode began with a three way.

 

And Charles Vain had to spoil the mood.  Watching this episode really made me realize how vacant a character Vane is.  Everybody else has layers and Vane just seems kind of masturbatory, like he just wants to sit on the throne of Nassau just to show what a badass he is.   Actually, I find Jack more of a badass because he doesn't swagger around and use his physicality to get things done the way Vane does, Jack is pretty damn smart.  I'd like too see him outsmart Vane.  

 

Regarding Flint's sexuality; sometimes I think that we in the 21st century love to put people in boxes, love to put labels on people.  Who's black, who's white, who's straight, who's gay.  I wonder if back then, were people labeled as much as they are today.

Edited by Neurochick
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Neurochick, absolutely love your last comment. I think a great internal theme of Black Sails is about sexual and emotional fluidity. Not being put into a pretty little box, and owning who we are as people, free of repression and shame.

Each of the characters have varying levels of scars, repression, anger, resentment and shame. A group of outcasts. Of course they are all drawn to this place where they can be themselves. After tonight it is so much more poignant to me.

My all time favorite Flint scene is episode 7, when he grates out 'it's an intolerable sacrifice, to apologize to England'.

No wonder with how he was treated. Berated for who he is, at his core as a man, when all he wanted was what was truly right.

On another note: I'm wondering if Flint was looking at Billy the day of the boat rising was because he reminded him of someone. Yes, I mean that other blonde and noble fellow. Which again makes me think he didn't push Billy.

Do we know just how much was in that letter yet?

The Flint story is always my go to over all, but each of these characters represent so well, relatable stories of anguish. Wow! Such a great show.

Amazing insult the writers wrote for Eleanor to say to her bum of a father. 'Paraphrasing'

About coming from him, and always expecting that stench when he darkens her door.

He did deserve that for openly admitting he ditched her in a war zone because she wasn't a son.

Anybody else think Max knew those particular men had resentments toward Anne, and was waiting to use that and the exchange with Jack at the beginning, to her advantage?

Edited by Sharkatefonz
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I love a gay pirate! I was thinking for awhile that Thomas was gay and there was something off in the Flint and Miranda relationship. I didn't think they were in love and didn't really get a vibe they ever had been. Now it makes sense they both loved Thomas and that's what their bond is. As far as Flint's sexuality it's probably a little fluid but hopefully this means no Flint/Eleanor hookup.

I enjoy Eleanor's horrible father but I find her very boring. And Vane, ugh,
whipping those hair extensions around, please stop.

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This show is fantastic.  

 

I'm thinking about everything that happened in season 1 and how it all makes sense now, Flint's story.  When Eleanor's father saw the portrait in Miranda's home, he made a comment about Lord Hamilton and how his son was institutionalized because of his best friend having an affair with his wife.  Now we know that was the official story, what Lord Hamilton told, when the real story was that Thomas and Flint were involved with each other and Papa Hamilton was an ignorant homophobe.  

 

I think about the sex scene between Flint and Miranda, she's into it but he was just lying there, uninterested, now that scene makes sense; also why Flint wants this gold, why is was willing to kill Gates.  This is a man who lost his true love in a very tragic way.

 

And all these layers of Flint make Charles Vane look like a savage three year old, someone who needs to sit in their high chair while the grown ups are talking.  After watching this episode, I don't even want to watch Vane anymore; to me, he's a non motherfucking factor.  I'm interested in Anne and Jack and Max and Silver and Billy.  Vane's in a completely different story now, he's a fucking caveman; I expect him to beat his chest, grunt, grab Eleanor by the hair and try and drag her into his cave.  

Edited by Neurochick
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Regarding Flint's sexuality; sometimes I think that we in the 21st century love to put people in boxes, love to put labels on people.  Who's black, who's white, who's straight, who's gay.  I wonder if back then, were people labeled as much as they are today.

 

I suspected Hamilton was gay but not gay with Flint.

 

I was just over at another Black Sails forum and the hypocrisy of some of the posters was pretty blatant.  Of course, they don't mind Eleanor, Anne, or Max being bisexual, but Flint having sex with both men and women got their tighty whities all twisted into a wad.  They were saying how the show was now ruined for them and they would never watch Black Sails again.  Like Starz gives a f*&k.

 

My sympathy for Miranda has increased exponentially.   It's clear that she loved her husband despite his sexual orientation and wanted him to be happy.  She also feels the same way about Flint- plus their shared love of Thomas is part of what's keeping them together.  She really is a victim of circumstance like many of the others on

New Providence and is trying to make the best of a terrible situation.  FWIW-the actor who plays Lord Ashe is Louise Barnes' husband IRL.

 

Still not caring much about Jack, Anne, or Max.  Maybe that will change as the series continues.

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I was just over at another Black Sails forum and the hypocrisy of some of the posters was pretty blatant.  Of course, they don't mind Eleanor, Anne, or Max being bisexual, but Flint having sex with both men and women got their tighty whities all twisted into a wad.  They were saying how the show was now ruined for them and they would never watch Black Sails again.  Like Starz gives a f*&k.

 

 

LOL, what did they expect from Starz, the network that gave us "Spartacus."

 

I think a lot of those posters are teenage boys and young men who are very uncomfortable seeing two men kissing.  I have to say that when Thomas was looking at Flint, and then he went in for the kiss, I was like, "no fucking way, Flint's going to slap his face or something," but then when Flint accepted it, I was like, "OMFG, now THIS is a show, wish my mother had Starz, she'd LOVE this."  

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I was just over at another Black Sails forum and the hypocrisy of some of the posters was pretty blatant.  Of course, they don't mind Eleanor, Anne, or Max being bisexual, but Flint having sex with both men and women got their tighty whities all twisted into a wad.  They were saying how the show was now ruined for them and they would never watch Black Sails again.  Like Starz gives a f*&k.

 

What forum was it, if I may ask? That's the usual hypocrite reaction you get from some. it's ok to have the girl-on-girl action with Max and Eleanor or Anne. But two guys? Oh, no! The horror!! I hope the Black Sails creators take a page from the "Spartacus" creator and tells them to fuck off and stop watching his show if they have a problem with it.

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Best lines of the night were Randall's:  "We like him." followed by "We like him too."

 

I'm puzzled by the woman Mrs. Barlow saw walking with an injured child.  Was he supposed to have been injured by shrapnel?  Why would a child have been anywhere near a fort that was the in the center of a huge pirate dispute that everyone knew about?  Was that supposed to be symbolic for the destruction that Mrs. Barlow was foreseeing?

 

So . . . which pirate captain do you think it was that slit the throats of the former Governor's wife and son?  Flint wasn't a pirate yet and Vane looks too young to have been a captain 10 years ago.  Do we think that's how Hornigold took command of the fort?

 

I like Charlotte, the artistic whore.

 

Vane tells his quartermaster that the only way to win this fight is to "cut off its head."  Well, we can't say we weren't warned.  But of course I had forgotten all about him until that last second reveal.  Nice "gotcha!" by the writers.  

 

Eleanor's father is a shit and I can barely stand it when he is on screen.  Which makes the line about him being "the manure from which [she] sprang" incredibly apt.  But when he started spewing all that rubbish about how the people of Whitehall would know her name and all that she had accomplished I just wanted to gag -- it is all so clearly a con job.

 

So . . . it's seems likely that the person Flint was hunting and ultimately murdered during a pirate raid early in his career was Thomas' loathsome father. But a crewman overheard Flint tell Mrs. Barlow "They're dead."  Who is "they"? Who else would Flint and Mrs. Barlow hold responsible for for Thomas' death?

 

I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for Anne right now.  She WAS the primary instigator in the of the murder of 8 of her crewmates.  Jack was completely innocent and took most of the blame (including several beatings.)  Actions have consequences and this is the first we've seen of her suffering any fall-out from betraying her crew.

 

I originally wondered why Eleanor ordered everyone out of the bar when Flint and Mrs. Barlow arrived.  It seemed pointless.  Now I wonder if she did it so Vane could slip in.  Did she and Vane plan this in advance?

 

And last but not least -- the relationship between Thomas, Flint & Mrs Barlow/Lady Hamilton.  Well, I didn't see that coming.  I had Thomas pegged as probably gay but I wasn't expecting another menage a trois in the show.  I have to say I found the scene where Thomas and Flint kiss after Thomas' father storms out to be . . . awkward at best.  I just didn't buy it.  I can't imagine a major moment like that happening in the dining room in front of a woman who is married to one and sleeping with the other.   But as far as unexpected plot developments go . . . yowza!  That's a doozy.

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It's annoying that a great story is getting overlooked in some areas by homophobia. Their loss. FWIW, I think Miranda looked disappointed when Thomas kissed James. To me, it seems as though up until that moment James was all hers. She than shared him with Thomas.

She declares to loving them both and I believe that to be true. I think Thomas was gay and Flint until Thomas made the first move, had not considered loving a man romantically.

I'm of the belief though, that Flint's actions in the love scene with Barlowe last year could be due to him being angry at her, and feeling that her depth of love for Thomas outweighed her affection for him. Her reading from the book she shared with Thomas and her eyes being closed during that scene. She never looked at Flint.

Just because her husband was gay, it didn't prevent her from being in love with him. Perhaps if things didn't unfold so badly, she'd still have Thomas even though she loved them both.

Had to add that even if Flint loved Thomas, it doesn't prevent (IMO) Flint from being jealous of her affections for Thomas so many years later.

Another layer of regret/jealousy- the scene Miranda with the book. She could be so sad that Thomas is taking her lover, but I think she was upset because James was the one true love to Thomas and not her. In a perfect world I think she'd have preferred Thomas could love her that way, and she does also love James. The part that I keep trying to figure out is does she or even CAN she love them both as deeply or truly? Or does her love for one outweigh the love she has for the other?

As for Flint-I think he loves them both, he's heartbroken over Thomas and perhaps wonders as to whether Miranda could ever love him as deeply as she did Thomas.

The way he looked at her when he brought her back the book that first time in season 1. That's a quiet, sincere kindness, that little something extra you do for someone you love, IMO.

And he did it again, even after all the hell he went through at sea this time.

Relationships are very complex and I applaud them for showing the shades. Not just one choice or level of emotions.

Tonight's opening scene demonstrates it so well IMO. Anne was ok with all three being involved, but she didn't want to be the one on the outside; the third.

I think it's opening a fascinating discussion on polyamory.

One of the challenges is in all parties being accepting of their role in the relationship. For some it's more complicated, and fall out results.

Sorry for being so OT. Such a thought provoking episode.

Edited by Sharkatefonz
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I'm of the belief though, that Flint's actions in the love scene with Barlowe last year could be due to him being angry at her, and feeling that her depth of love for Thomas outweighed her affection for him. Her reading from the book she shared with Thomas and her eyes being closed during that scene. She never looked at Flint.

In S1 I thought Flint was angry and felt that Miranda had betrayed the memory of Thomas by reading that book to Guthrie. My working impression in S1 was that Thomas/Flint were very good friends and Flint loved Thomas (brother/best friend) but ultimately betrayed Thomas by taking up with Miranda. Before tonight I figured Miranda/Flint loved each other but it was destroyed by their guilt over Thomas and had just remained together in misery out of necessity.

Now, after the reveal some things change and some don't. I still think Miranda and James loved Thomas although now I know James' love was romantic. I think there is a still a twisted bond of guilt and anger over what they lost holding them together (until tonight).

This reveal works so well and clears up the big mystery while adding so many layers to both Barlow and Flint.

Everything about this episode was brilliant. I lived Jack and Anne but I don't like how Max is getting between them. The one thing I can say is I never doubt Jack when it comes to Anne he loves her and is loyal to her.

I'm really starting to hate Eleanor. I hope they can pull this around because right now I want her gone.

Silver has grown on me so much since S1. I really love his interactions with Flint. Glad Billy is finally free, can't wait to see what happens whem Billy/Flint finally come face to face.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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I can't wait to see Flint's reaction to Billy. Toby Stephens is fascinating to watch. I'm wondering if we'll know without a doubt if he threw him overboard or not, just from the look on Flint's face.

I can't help but keep running over it again and again all that happened tonight. Such a great show.

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I can't wait to see Flint's reaction to Billy.

 I'm interested to learn what Billy meant when he said John should be less concerned about how he got into the water and more concerned about how he got out.  That was ominous.  We know he was fished out by the Brits and tortured by them.  But how did he get back to Nassau?

 

I did love that Billy was sure enough of his relationship with Randall to be able to use it to force John into letting him go.

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LOL, what did they expect from Starz, the network that gave us "Spartacus."

 

I think a lot of those posters are teenage boys and young men who are very uncomfortable seeing two men kissing.  I have to say that when Thomas was looking at Flint, and then he went in for the kiss, I was like, "no fucking way, Flint's going to slap his face or something," but then when Flint accepted it, I was like, "OMFG, now THIS is a show, wish my mother had Starz, she'd LOVE this."  

I really hope that my daughter does this for me when I am old enough for her to pick shows like this for me.

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SO AWESOME. Right before the reveal, like a millisecond, I was like, 'no way! squee!' This was the best television episode of the year. No offense The Walking Dead, which I close out my week on a Sunday night, but no way you'd have the balls for this. Also you're boring and don't take creative risks. This was a huge risk for the show. The main character pirate that gets top billing is into guys. Or at least into one guy. Still. Good job, show. Absolutely I'm 100% in support of this direction. This show went from 'I got to watch Black Sails tonight; to Black Sails is awesome and no one bother me while I watch it.' 

 

Back to tactics, it seemed like Flint shelling the fort was cosmetic. Mrs. Barlowe telling him about the hostage changes the whole scene, of course, and I'm glad she's taking an interest in what's going on.

 

I'm on the side that Flint was down for *all* the Hamiltons. Because when they showed the flashback with Flint and Miranda in the coach, he was very interested and there's no mistaking that. Now he's making out with Lord Hamilton in front of her, and she's smiling. *SO HOT*

 

I'm actually shocked that Rackham takes Max over Anne. I get his reasoning, but no. You go to your crew and you bend them to your will. You don't maintain your position by bargaining with them. That was a poor strategic decision and I have to say, kind of OOC for someone who has proven to be smart.

 

I wonder if back then, were people labeled as much as they are today.

 

The problem is, these people could have been put to death, legally. So in this historical context, this is a huge deal. On the island, I would doubt anyone really cares. Clearly, there's no way in London that two guys would be able to go out together.

 

Starz: Bisexuality is cool. Gladiators. Pirates. Come on down. 

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I did not see the reveal of Flint as a gay / bi pirate coming. Well done writers.  Now I have to wonder if Flint and Barlow having sex in season 1 was only to "keep up appearance" when Eleanor's dad was staying at Barlow's house.  At the time, I could not figure out how Flint looked that bored when someone that hot was riding him :P

Any little hope Eleanor had for bedding Flint is now gone gone gone :P  Well, unless Flint decided that would be the only way to control her. :D

 

I sense a "brown chicken brown cow" moment between Flint and Billy Bones in season 3.  Billy had never touched any girls at the brothel hadn't he? *wink* *wink*

 

Now that the fort is damaged, it makes more sense to move and hide the gold than to bring it back to Nassau *wink* 

 

Did Max just get what she wanted ? Jack gone sailing, leaving Anne all for her to control

 

I did not care about Eleanor's daddy issue either

 

 

ETA: now it made perfect sense why James, Admiral's #1 Lieutenant, could be so enamored with Thomas' batsh!t crazy (for that time period) idea

Edited by DarkRaichu
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Well, that just made Flint 100% more interesting to me. I really thought he was going to politely refuse the kiss, but reciprocating, and the love affair that apparently followed, and the subsequent tragic loss, make much of Flint's actions and motivations thus far so much clearer! Now hopefully he'll fend off Vane and we'll get the meet up with Billy! (Yes, DarkRaichu, Billy did seem extaordinarily chaste last season, at least as far as women were concerned. A guy can dream.)

    Eleanor didn't annoy me at all tonight. She seems to be assessing her situation more realistically than in previous episodes. Like that we are getting to know the brothel workers a bit.

 

I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for Anne right now.  She WAS the primary instigator in the of the murder of 8 of her crewmates.  Jack was completely innocent and took most of the blame (including several beatings.)  Actions have consequences and this is the first we've seen of her suffering any fall-out from betraying her crew.

Even pirates have codes, and they got what was coming to them. I'm still waiting for Jack and Anne to own up to what they did as a good thing.

 

I'm puzzled by the woman Mrs. Barlow saw walking with an injured child.

OI think it was just a reminder that there is collateral damage in any war. The woman I think was in shock and  did not seem aware of the damage done to her child.

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Love Randall!  He's so hilarious.

 

Is Flint gay, bi, or just in love with Thomas?   It seemed like he was sleeping with Miranda too.  Interesting that the episode began with a three way.

It sounded to me as if Flint and Miranda only slept together once.  When Miranda told Thomas she was worried about people finding out and talking about what was going on in the house, Thomas' response was something along the lines of her not being concerned about them saying anything about her taking Flint to her bed that ONE time.  It really stood out to me, because before and during that scene, I was sure that Flint and Miranda were screwing around with the permission of Thomas.  But after he said that, I thought for sure that  that Thomas was also getting into the action, as a call back (or call forward) to the opening scene with Rackham, Bonnie, and Max.  But then, when Flint had the response to Miranda about Thomas being sent away "due to our affair?!?", I realized that she wasn't involved at all and it was just the boys. 

 

Really great reveal all around. 

 

I was so lost in the revelry of the love story, that my practical brain was yelling "It's too quiet.  Something's coming.  Fuck!  It's going to be Vane!  Oh shit, it IS Vane! Fuck!  Shit! No, don't end the scene!"  This fucking show.

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FWIW, I think Miranda looked disappointed when Thomas kissed James. To me, it seems as though up until that moment James was all hers. She than shared him with Thomas.

I did also.  For them, the marriage worked and they didn't care about the gossiping (like some of you, I was thinking Thomas was gay as well).  Then she finds someone for herself, only to realize that James wasn't "just hers".  I felt for her in that scene.  Kudos to the show on my 360 about Miranda - her love and acceptance of Thomas to the point where she confronts James to stop their Nassau plan, knowing that Thomas's secret would be exposed and wanting to stop that no matter what, for what it would do to Thomas.  James and Thomas came across as incredibly naive I thought, with Miranda trying to be the voice of reason.

 

She became fully realized for me finally - an intelligent woman, who loves her idealistic husband and why not be married - they understand and like each other and have a comfortable lifestyle.  Then along comes James, handsome, intellectual and she thinks she has the best of both worlds - only to realize that she doesn't have James at all, or only a small part.  She doesn't express anger then or now at the situation, though for us it us just been revealed, and there is more to show.

 

Now James's father's reaction makes more sense too - when he was giving that speech about "helping a man through his weakness" I'm thinking, well it was just an affair, I'm sure it happens all the time....what's the big deal?  He meant James/Thomas not James/Miranda.  

 

I did not see the James/Thomas love story coming either!  It still doesn't explain for me what Flint's motivations are.  Hopefully we will see more of that in the evolution from James to Flint.  He wants the gold to establish Nassau; does he intend to somehow atone for not trying to rescue Thomas?  He tells Miranda that his shame is due to not trying to rescue him because "I listened to you" - he feels tremendous guilt over abandoning his friend/lover.  So how is his present course of action going to atone for that?  Or maybe he doesn't seek atonement at all, only being angry to be angry, as Miranda says?

 

I think we see the shot of the injured, possibly dead child, as an early reminder that Flint's actions aren't noble.  He is obsessed with his course and the hell with everything else. I don't remember much of his relationship (if any) with Vane last season.  None of them are to be trusted of course but Flint did not attempt to deal with Vane in a non-violent manner except to demand him to abandon the fort, which he must have known he wouldn't do.  I'm sure part of it is that the last time he allowed himself to be swayed - by not trying to rescue Thomas - he has regretted it.

 

Not overly interested in Eleanor and her father either, but was it his wife and son who had their throats slit?  I may be reading too much into that.  I do think Eleanor sent Miranda & Flint into that specific room so Vane could attack there.

 

 

Love Randall!  He's so hilarious.

This!  "We like him".  "We like him too".  Billy has been kind of bland to me but I can't wait to see Flint's reaction to him.  

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Kudos to the show on my 360 about Miranda

I think you mean a 180.  A 360 would put you back where you began.  :)

 

 

I did not see the James/Thomas love story coming either!  It still doesn't explain for me what Flint's motivations are.  Hopefully we will see more of that in the evolution from James to Flint.

I assume that Flint's desire is a hodgepodge of trying to see a part of Thomas' plan finally realized -- the conversion of the pirates to a working (though self-ruled) colony -- and his own desire to find a place for himself in the world.  That scene between James and his father-figure at the Admiralty was heart-breaking.  When he told James he had to "disappear and never be heard from again" what he meant was to ostracize him from polite London (and probably British) society.  In a class-conscious society as depicted in this show, to take away a man's place like that -- especially a hard-won place that he was not born into but had risen into through hard work and success in his profession -- well that was just brutal.  Flint no longer belongs anywhere.  He's too educated and idealistic to be content being a pirate but what else can he do?

 

When Miranda and James were having their tete-a-tete conversation in the flash-back and he talked about Thomas going to the Bahamas as Governor, I felt sure that James was imagining a life where the three of them could be together and they could live their unconventional relationship in peace -- far away from the prying eyes of London society -- living the ideals they discussed in Thomas' salon.  That all ended when Thomas was seized.  But I think James is still clinging to the notion of creating that life for himself and Miranda, in memory of Thomas.  He's still being a hopeless idealist.  Miranda's idea of obtaining a pardon for him and moving to Boston where they could live down their notoriety and have a decent life together really makes much more sense than James' plan to create an independent Bahamas run by him and Eleanor.  I'm beginning to realize that James IS the "mad man on the ship" that Vane's declaration made him out to be.

 

ETA: It's noteworthy that FlashBack Miranda says she loves Thomas for being an idealist and James for being more pragmatic and effective.  But it seems that when James fell in love with Thomas he became (for lack of a better word) infected with Thomas' idealism.  As a result of Thomas' death, James' guilt seems to drive him to cling to that idealism even as his pragmatism drives him to do awful things like murder Gates.

 

 

Not overly interested in Eleanor and her father either, but was it his wife and son who had their throats slit?

I'm pretty sure Eleanor's father was never the Governor.  My understanding is that he's the least-favorite son of a Boston shipping magnate.  His family sent him off to The Bahamas because they didn't want him around and his official job is to do legitimate trade with the plantaion owners while really making his money as the exclusive fence for all the stolen goods acquired by the Pirates of Nassau.  That's the business Eleanor runs for him now.  I think in season one we hear that he had an expectation that he would be made Governor of the Bahamas as result of a lot of well-placed bribes, but he was disabused of that notion when a Man 'o War showed up with a warrant for his arrest.

Edited by WatchrTina
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I did not see the James/Thomas love story coming either!  It still doesn't explain for me what Flint's motivations are.  Hopefully we will see more of that in the evolution from James to Flint.  He wants the gold to establish Nassau; does he intend to somehow atone for not trying to rescue Thomas?  He tells Miranda that his shame is due to not trying to rescue him because "I listened to you" - he feels tremendous guilt over abandoning his friend/lover.  So how is his present course of action going to atone for that?  Or maybe he doesn't seek atonement at all, only being angry to be angry, as Miranda says?

 

I don't know if he'll ever find atonement but I believe Flint feels that if he can make Thomas' vision/dream happen it would make up for running away.  It's like the one last thing James could do to honor Thomas' life/death.  It actually makes Flint's actions regarding Gates and possibly even Billy understandable.  At the same time it makes him very scary because he's driven by passion/obsession/guilt and he won't let anything get in his way.  

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I think you mean a 180.  A 360 would put you back where you began.  :)

LOL, don't want to go around in circles!

 

Thanks for reminding me of the background on Eleanor and her father.  Their story isn't really compelling and I couldn't remember why she hates him so much.

 

 

At the same time it makes him very scary because he's driven by passion/obsession/guilt and he won't let anything get in his way.

Even as James he had anger issues - beating up the other soldier past the necessary point - and was a risk taker.  With a single minded purpose and the ability to get men to follow him, he's indeed very dangerous.

 

 

You go to your crew and you bend them to your will. You don't maintain your position by bargaining with them. That was a poor strategic decision and I have to say, kind of OOC for someone who has proven to be smart.

While this is true of Flint, Vane and Lowe, Jack has to be smarter than everyone else and prove it to this crew to keep their loyalty .  He wasn't bargaining from a position of strength either.  I am curious to see what his next move will be.

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I believe Flint feels that if he can make Thomas' vision/dream happen it would make up for running away.  It's like the one last thing James could do to honor Thomas' life/death.

That's what makes Flint's current dilemma such a thorny one.  He has a few options, none of them good.

  1. Continue with his plan to drive Vane and his crew out of the fort.  Most likely kill Abigail Ashe in the process -- the daughter of a good friend and (potentially) the key to getting the political solution he wanted in the first place.  Leave Nassau vulnerable to the Spanish & the British for up to 20 weeks during the re-build of the fort AND, during that time      find a way to wrest 50 million pesos from an armed crew sworn to protect it. This is his current course and it was already a difficult one before you add the repercussions of the kidnapping (and probably death) of Abigail Ashe.  
  2. Stop the assault on the fort.  Negotiate with Vane.  Offer to tell him where the gold is in return for him giving up the fort AND giving up the hostage.  Take the girl to Carolina and, assuming he isn't executed as a pirate on the spot, work with Lord Ashe for a political solution to Nassau.  Except that he'd never get to Carolina because he crew would have mutinied and killed him when they learned there is no gold and no ransom for them in the plan.
  3. Go into partnership with Vane -- give him a share of the gold in return for him giving up the hostage.  Vane retains his control over the fort.  No, wait, Hornigold won't accept that -- he wants the fort back.  The crews will be angry about the smaller shares of the gold, Flint doesn't trust Vane, and Vane doesn't trust Flint. And Vane will kill Flint if he tries to take more than his share of the gold to set up a government in Nassau.  So partnership won't work.

And then of course there's the issue of Vane and Flint being (literally) at each other's throats when the episode closed.

 

You know what I don't understand?  Why does Flint hate/distrust Vane so much?  He is portrayed as being afraid that Vane will seize the Urca gold if he has control of the Fort.  But why jump to that conclusion? Wouldn't that be a huge violation of the pirate code that "governs" Nassau?  Wouldn't all the other captains and crews have a problem with Vane if he used the Fort to seize a cargo from a fellow pirate instead of using it to defend the pirates from the British and the Spanish? I feel like there is something more to the story -- something we haven't been told yet.  Did some conflict happen between Vane and Flint in the past?  

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I did not see the reveal of Flint as a gay / bi pirate coming. Well done writers.  Now I have to wonder if Flint and Barlow having sex in season 1 was only to "keep up appearance" when Eleanor's dad was staying at Barlow's house.  At the time, I could not figure out how Flint looked that bored when someone that hot was riding him 

 

 

Thinking about that sex scene, I understand that scene a lot more now.

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You know what I don't understand?  Why does Flint hate/distrust Vane so much?  He is portrayed as being afraid that Vane will seize the Urca gold if he has control of the Fort.  But why jump to that conclusion? Wouldn't that be a huge violation of the pirate code that "governs" Nassau?

 

Vane's been shown to be generally unreliable and not quite the business minded person the rest of them need him to be. Flint's said as much this season. I still think the assault was more to get Vane to the table then it was to destroy the fort because that's not in anyone's interests. Of course, Vane takes it personally because he doesn't see the big picture, which kind of proves the point. 

 

If the mafia had been invented yet, Flint would be going to the other bosses to obtain permission to remove Vane. 

Edited by ganesh

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Well, Vane already tried to get Flint removed as captain when the show began so I can see Flint still holding a grudge. There may be some major event that caused their mutual  dislike. However, it could just be as simple as their backgrounds. Flint may have  been low in London society when he was born but he had made a name for himself and his station had risen as a naval officer. He is a educated gentleman turned pirate. He is well spoken, well read, and for a pirate well dressed. Compared to Vane who always looks dirty, doesn't seem to read or write, speaks gruffly and very much a thug. If Flint was lower class than Vane would be a whole different level of lower class.

 

I do think, as mentioned, in my last post was that Flint will never agree with a a pardon because that would like forgiving England for what happened to him and Thomas.

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Well, Vane already tried to get Flint removed as captain when the show began so I can see Flint still holding a grudge.

Okay, I have a vague memory of that.  I recall Vane sitting on the beach, wanting to get a look at Flint after the crew voted him out (which didn't happen thanks to Flint pulling the switcheroo, accusing the other guy of theft, killing him, planting the blank page on him, and Billy going along with it).  And now I think about it, isn't that why Eleanor slapped Vane (and got punched in response) -- because Vane had somehow colluded with Flint's crew to bring about Flint's downfall?  But does anyone remember why Vane wanted Flint out in the first place?  Why would one captain interfere with the command structure on another ship?

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RPJ played 'the gay one' in his previous project with Stephens, Cambridge Spies, but they didn't play gay together.

 

Well played, show! I totally dig how they tiptoed right up to the edge of the water, dropping hints here and there, until I was all, um, maybe? And then boom! Sweet. They make a pretty couple, and a pretty threesome.

 

I wonder if Clara Paget gets a crick in her neck from playing all her lines with her head bowed, twisting her face just barely. Mine gets achy just watching her.

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Starz: Bisexuality is cool. Gladiators. Pirates. Come on down. 

 

So on Starz, instead of the Village People being a policeman, and and Indian etc, it's a Gladiator and a Pirate and ...?

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Here's a thought about the Flint/Vane feud, depending on the timeline.  What if Vane led the assault on Nassau that ultimately led to Hamilton's death?  If he was the one directly responsible for the attack, or was at least a major player in the attack, then Flint would have enough cause to kill him whenever the opportunity came about.

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FWIW, I think Miranda looked disappointed when Thomas kissed James. To me, it seems as though up until that moment James was all hers. She than shared him with Thomas.

 

I felt like her reaction was one of realizing not just that Flint wasn't "her's" anymore but that he would now share something with Thomas that she wouldn't have with either man. I think that, before Thomas, Flint never let himself entertain the idea of being with a man, even if he had been attracted to others. Society said he should be with women so he did as was expected of him. Thomas came along and threw his world for a loop.

 

I'd love to know exactly what Miranda's feelings are for both men. I know she has spoken of loving them but loving isn't the same as being "in love" with them. I've never really gotten to vibe from her (this season) that she was that "in love" with Thomas. I think she adored his goodness and idealism, she admired his honor and decency. She loved him but I didn't really feel that she had a romantic love for him. Thus why their arrangement worked so well. There were no hurt feelings or jealousy that one couldn't return the other's affection.

 

Flint . . . Him I feel like she could've been in love with. At least at first. Not now, though. Too much has happened. Now they're held together by loyalty and love to Thomas.

 

Their sexual encounter in season 1 could've been about keeping up appearances before Guthrie. Or it could be that, hey, she has needs and Flint fills them when he can to keep her from stirring up gossip by having other lovers. Speaking of, I think she invited the gossip in England because she saw herself as protecting Thomas. If everyone was gossiping about her and Flint then they'd be less likely to suspect it was really Thomas and Flint.

 

As for the  woman carrying the dead child -- I felt like that was a reminder of what Flint's actions were costing people on the island. He was hurting/killing people and destroying their property all in his attempt to get rid of Vane at any costs.

 

I also don't have alot of sympathy for Anne right now. I get that it sucks to be the odd man out, but it's largely a situation of her creation. As was already mention, her decision to strong-arm Jack into betraying their remaining crew cost him nearly everything. Jack is a pirate, not a pimp. He wouldn't be happy running a brothel forever. He wants back on the water and if his way of getting that is for Anne to take a backseat for a bit then I guess he feels she can give him that one.

 

The homophobes reaction to this episode is cracking me up. They were ok with girl-on-girl action but two men kiss. Oh, no! Let's cancel Starz NOW! I think many of them resent that they think they were "played". Tricked into liking Flint, rooting for him, relating to him, only to find out he's gay/bi. What does it say for them that they liked a gay character? The horror!

 

ETA: I'd also love to know which pirate it was who killed the guy's family in the event Flint was telling Thomas about. Vane looks a bit younger than Flint so he'd have to have been a teenager if he did it but, still, he could have. It'd explain alot of why Flint hates him so. Or it could've been someone Vane sailed with before starting up his own crew. But I also thought Hornigold since the pirate then took over the fort.

Edited by Garnett7
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What if Vane led the assault on Nassau that ultimately led to Hamilton's death?

 

Hamilton didn't die in Nassau. He killed himself while being held in the asylum in London where his father had him committed.

Edited by WatchrTina

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But does anyone remember why Vane wanted Flint out in the first place?  Why would one captain interfere with the command structure on another ship?

 

I believe Rackham indicated that it was about Flint's crew (and maybe the ship, too) that they wanted. Vane/Rackham put Singleton up to challenging Flint. The crew would soon become unhappy with an idiot like Singleton as captain and would be easy picking for Vane/Rackham to either take over the ship or lure these seasoned, excellent sailor onto their crew.

 

 

So on Starz, instead of the Village People being a policeman, and and Indian etc, it's a Gladiator and a Pirate and ...?

 

Maybe a Highlander, too, since the network has "Outlander" as well.

 

As for Thomas -- I wonder if he's really dead. We know that Guthrie heard the rumor of his suicide in the asylum but it could be just that, a rumor Thomas' father started. We know the other rumors Guthrie heard turned out to be untrue (that Thomas went insane over his wife sleeping with Flint). Perhaps his dad had him shipped off somewhere else and started the rumor he was dead.

Edited by Garnett7
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Hamilton didn't die in Nassau. He killed himself while being held in the asylum in London where his father had him committed.

 

No, I meant the pirates that killed the family in Nassau.  That event led to Thomas Hamilton's fall from grace, and eventual death.  I was wondering if Vane was some how connected to that incident.  Maybe he was a part of the crew of a ship that was involved.

Edited by phane00

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QUOTE

So on Starz, instead of the Village People being a policeman, and and Indian etc, it's a Gladiator and a Pirate and ...?

Maybe a Highlander, too, since the network has "Outlander" as well.

That I can address because I've read all the books.

There are gay characters in the Outlander saga but none (as far as I can recall) are Highlanders. They are all English or, interestingly,  Native American.  So, no gay men in kilts in the future on STARZ (at least in that show).

 

 

I meant the pirates that killed the family in Nassau.  That event led to Thomas Hamilton's fall from grace, and eventual death.  I was wondering if Vane was some how connected to that incident.  Maybe he was a part of the crew of a ship that was involved.

Well, we know Vane used to belong to the crew of that big, mean-looking pirate with the big black beard.  He still has never been named in the show and he might be the show's version of the historical pirate Blackbeard (Edward Teach) but that is unclear.  Let's pretend for a moment that it was the notorious Blackbeard who slit the throats of the Governor's wife and son back in 1705 (10 years earlier.)  I'd find it hard to believe that that could be the basis of Flint's grudge against Vane.  Vane looks too young to have been a person of consequence on Blackbeard's crew 10 years ago.  Why blame him?  Besides, the vibe I got from Vane's visit to Blackbeard's island is that he's kept his connection with that crew very very quiet.  Even Blackbeard didn't recognize him at first.  So how would Flint know about the connection?  No, I think something more is going to be revealed that caused the major mistrust between those two.  I wonder if Flint had something to do with Eleanor and Vane originally ending their relationship? Vane says to Eleanor in the very first episode of the series that she should be careful or he might "forget I ever loved you."  If Flint encouraged Eleanor to distance herself from Vane (and Flint does seem to have some kind of mentor / big brother relationship with Eleanor,) then that might be the basis for Vane's resentment of Flint and why he tried to have him overthrown as captain (or at least one of the reasons.)

Edited by WatchrTina
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I just power watched the whole series. 

 

Toby Stephens is a dish- gay pirate/bi pirate/sad pirate- dish. I've seen him around in stuff and am reminded- his Mr Rochester was the first time I've been attracted to that character in a Jane Eyre movie. I normally find Rochester to be a drag in most productions, but Stephens was hot. I was like "Go get him, Jane."

 

And he's Maggie Smith's son, which is always nice to remember.  Because of course a woman that awesome gives birth to a hot son. 

 

I suspected something was up, I think sometime around the time he told his superior that Thomas insisted on Flint calling him by his first name, I thought of it being romantic. I don't know if his sad sex with Miranda in season 1 meant he's gay (because he is also a sad pirate- he might not be sad because he's having sex with a woman, but because he's generally sad.) 

 

I actually wouldn't mind for the character to be bi, just because I think it would be interesting to show nuance in portraying the complex ways people are in sexual relationships. Eleanor is bi, Max is gay (straight for pay), Anne is bi-

 

I'll be interested to see if they introduce Mary Read into the mix at some point, because I think the historical Calico Jack was with both (they both claimed to be pregnant when they were arrested) and Anne fell in love with the cross dressing Mary.

 

 

And also ha ha to the person who previously noted that all the women were bi and none of the men were. 

 

There was the moment with Eleanor in the first season where he kisses her forehead. There is a weird lingering and hint of a sexual thing, and I'm not sure if that was a fake out or whether it meant something. Speaking of, she needs to pull it together and stop huffing around in a snit. They need to write her stronger, more steely. 

Edited by Pogojoco
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They need to write her stronger, more steely.

 

I think the writing is not the problem here. I think it's New's limitations as an actor. I do agree the performance needs more steel.

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I suspected something was up, I think sometime around the time he told his superior that Thomas insisted on Flint calling him by his first name, I thought of it being romantic. I don't know if his sad sex with Miranda in season 1 meant he's gay (because he is also a sad pirate- he might not be sad because he's having sex with a woman, but because he's generally sad.)

 

I actually wouldn't mind for the character to be bi, just because I think it would be interesting to show nuance in portraying the complex ways people are in sexual relationships.

 

The impression I got of Flint's sexuality is that he was straight until he fell in love with another man. I don't think the awkward sex with Miranda was because he is no longer attracted to women, but because it was Thomas he was in love with, not Miranda, and his attachment to her reminds Flint of the guilt over what happened to the man he loved.  I believe Flint feels a sense of obligation towards her, perhaps even affection, but Thomas was his true love.

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I can buy that. It's not something that's really portrayed on tv. Sometimes there's only that one person who really does it for you. I am all for alternative relationships and sexuality on tv, but usually it's just gay. Which is great, cf. Spartacus. But that's not there is all to it. 

 

In the flashback where Miranda and Flint first bang in the carriage, he was totally into it. I still think they did it a few more times after that. 

 

I think it's also decently likely that the bored sex in S1 with her was because he had a billion things on his mind as well. 

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I would like to register disapproval that with the girl-on-girl, we get all kinds of nudity. With Flint and Hamilton, we get one measly smooch and some meaningful glances. I'm hopeful future flashbacks will give us more skin.

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I think the writing is not the problem here. I think it's New's limitations as an actor. I do agree the performance needs more steel.

I was being generous with New, but yeah, part of it is her. 

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I would like to register disapproval that with the girl-on-girl, we get all kinds of nudity. With Flint and Hamilton, we get one measly smooch and some meaningful glances. I'm hopeful future flashbacks will give us more skin.

 

I would also like to say, the scene with Thomas and James was either poorly acted, poorly directed or both because that kiss could have been between my grandparents!  I find their relationship understandable, based on their common/uncommon beliefs and admiration of one and other, but to me that kissing scene was wooden.  The meaningful glances, though, were believable to me. 

Edited by Fable
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Starz: Bisexuality is cool. Gladiators. Pirates. Come on down. 

 

I will never cancel Starz as long as they're this open minded. This episode blew my mind in the best possible way. Also, props to me for calling out a 3-way scenario fairly early on in the ep, but as my mind tends to jump to HoYay and 3-ways regularly, I laughed it off. I was gobsmacked when it actually happened!

 

There was the moment with Eleanor in the first season where he kisses her forehead. There is a weird lingering and hint of a sexual thing, and I'm not sure if that was a fake out or whether it meant something. Speaking of, she needs to pull it together and stop huffing around in a snit. They need to write her stronger, more steely. 

 

I remember this scene well, because I may or may not have watched it a dozen or so times. There was serious chemistry there, and I sort of secretly started shipping them at that moment. 

 

Poor Flint. If only someone could have told him about The Golden Rule

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I'm picturing the people at Starz like, "Hey Black Sails, the show is rocking. Let's get to the hoyay! I mean, you know this place right?"

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That was a pretty great reveal.  Flint is a woobie, destroyer of worlds.  His love for Thomas and the rage he feels at the injustice they all suffered is what's driving him. Also, it explains a LOT about Flint and Miranda and I'm more sympathetic toward Miranda now. 

 

Starz: Bisexuality is cool. Gladiators. Pirates. Come on down.

 

Yup!  James Flint, say hello to Jack Harkness, Oberyn Martell, and Leo da Vinci, a few of your fellow badass male bisexual action heroes.

Edited by GreyBunny
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