Swaig February 19, 2015 Share February 19, 2015 Choo Choo. Yes he provides some comedy, but it doesn't ring true that a supposed organised criminal gang, would associate with someone so "challenged" and who is a major liability. Both Ty and that other guy, can't stand him. They mock him and think he's stupid. So then why have they involved him in their operation? Choo Choo's involvement seems really out of place to me.Choo Choo is a friend. He served with the other guy in Iraq, so there is a level of trust there. He also provides much needed (and apparently very effective) muscle. Don't forget that usually in these operations, especially on Justified, the people within are always looking to screw each other over because everyone's a lowlife. So trust is a big thing. 1 Link to comment
ChipBach February 19, 2015 Share February 19, 2015 (edited) Geez, Raylan, what are you doing? Go ahead and blow another case against Boyd. I know that Elmore Leonard characters aren't supposed to learn anything but I don't find that appealing. I thought this episode was alright. Not great. Actually kind of disappointing, especially the Ava storyline. I liked the returns of Constable Bob and Limehouse. Choo Choo continues to be a hoot. "How about some skim milk? Do you have skim milk?" Here's the only way the Albert stuff makes any sense to me: Albert never actually recanted. The "Albert recanted" stuff was a cover story to fool Boyd, and anyone else, into thinking that Ava isn't an informant. And Albert lost his job - not because he recanted, but because he fled the area after the fake stabbing, and stopped coming to work. Raylan told the other marshals a while back that the stabbing allegations had to be false. The other marshals didn't care much that Ava was framed, either because they're horrible people, or because they knew that Ava had done plenty of other illegal things. When the marshals realized that Katherine was going to track down Albert, they sought him out and told him they knew he was guilty, and that if he wanted to avoid criminal prosecution, he should tell anyone who asked that he recanted. So he did. This. and That. This episode was the very first that left me bored, irritated, and thought none of the characters rang true to what has been thus far developed. - It is obvious to everyone Albert set up Ava. Knowing that it was a set-up, I have a hard time watching Raylan put Ava in such danger when he knows she was falsely imprisoned. I guess he can view her as "has it coming" because she chose a life with Boyd, then why kiss her and put the whole investigation at risk? I don't think Rachel or Tim would take part in a plan that would put a victim in such a dangerous spot... - Boyd is smarter than that. He has to know her "I gotta go hair style" as weird times is suspicious. Regular Boyd would have had her followed continuously since her remarkable prison release. Or - call down to the shop and as Ava's boss why she keeps calling her in... - Seems Raylan is also pretty ham-handed in setting up meetings and meeting in places that he could be seen... Harlan is a pretty small place, seems like Flo the operator can easily see them together and start a little gossip. - The legalized pot thing. I work in Kentucky. There are about a million acres of tobacco land available for an alternate crop, Land that is not on hills that require a two hour drive on country roads to reach... I would think Sam could buy his acreage in parcels of the thousands right on the main interstates... Edited February 19, 2015 by ChipBach 4 Link to comment
Febgirl February 19, 2015 Share February 19, 2015 I posted this idea somewhere else, and something similar was mentioned on the post show recaps podcast I listen to, about the constant references to Ava- how pretty she is, and how she might not be so pretty once Markham and his crew get their hands on her, how she was a cheerleader in high school, etc. That's gotta play some part down the line this season. Somehow, I don't see Ava Crowder becoming as conniving a business woman as Katherine Hale, Mags Bennett, or Loretta Mc Cready, for that matter. For me, and this is just my opinion, I am not in the camp of those who think the actress, Joelle Carter is killing it this season. I find her off putting, and maybe it's because the caliber of the performances of everyone else around her are so fantastic, but she's just meh to me. 2 Link to comment
Dowel Jones February 19, 2015 Share February 19, 2015 You and your 'Aplex' Sure beats "phlox" and "Stygian" for entertainment value. 2 Link to comment
tv-talk February 19, 2015 Share February 19, 2015 Let's not forget that Ava herself is a criminal who deserves to be in jail for numerous different reasons and the fact that Fickus' screwed her over doesnt change that. Ava is a criminal just as much as Boyd and I thought the show did a great job previously of showing that and being sure you really didnt feel sorry for her per se. I really hope they arent going to switch around to the notion she's some sympathetic character that we're supposed to hope gets to live happily ever after if she manages to navigate around the bad people she just happens to be involved with. Nope, the 'real' Ava might just as well kill Raylon when the moment came if it was difference between her and Boyd escaping to Brazil or something just as likely as she's turn Boyd in to save herself and get with Raylon. I hope they dont cheapen her character by playing up any damsel in distess stuff. Just my $.02! 2 Link to comment
ruby24 February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) Well, that's what I've always wanted her to be- a badass, unforgiving female criminal, because most shows let the men be the antiheroes, and the women are always the long suffering or ignorant wives who never get to participate in the bad deeds. I never liked Ava in the first season, but once she got together with Boyd they moved her into the criminal side as an equal and willing partner, and I liked that. But then Graham Yost made a remark in an interview that the writers never want Ava to be preceived as "too bad" and that dashed all my hopes. Now they're fulfilling that by turning her into someone who's scared and desperate, and needs to be saved and is just flailing around instead of plotting either her own escape, or going straight to Boyd and teaming up against Raylan because she long ago made the conscious choice to partner up with him in their life of crime (that's how I had preceived it for the last 4 years- I guess I was snowed by the depiction of genuine feelings between her and Boyd). Edited February 20, 2015 by ruby24 1 Link to comment
queenanne February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 Well, that's what I've always wanted her to be- a badass, unforgiving female criminal, because most shows let the men be the antiheroes, and the women are always the long suffering or ignorant wives who never get to participate in the bad deeds. I never liked Ava in the first season, but once she got together with Boyd they moved her into the criminal side as an equal and willing partner, and I liked that. But then Graham Yost made a remark in an interview that the writers never want Ava to be preceived as "too bad" and that dashed all my hopes. Now they're fulfilling that by turning her into someone who's scared and desperate, and needs to be saved and is just flailing around instead of plotting either her own escape, or going straight to Boyd and teaming up against Raylan because she long ago made the conscious choice to partner up with him in their life of crime (that's how I had preceived it for the last 4 years- I guess I was snowed by the depiction of genuine feelings between her and Boyd). Perfect description. I liked cold as ice Ava, thought it seemed fitting as a story development based upon active decisions she made, and hated what they did at the end of last season. I felt Boyd's giving up on getting Ava out of prison was a dreadful mistake. It gave me the screaming story meemies, actually. "Boyd who worships the ground Ava walks on" (and there used to be no question he does), would move heaven and earth, not reach some "oh well! This seems too difficult, let me run around with another man's wife" point of view instead. I thought his retreat from the field of damsel battle was awfully contrived, specifically to get us to this point where Ava could be turned against Boyd. (I might not be irritated anymore by the time the season ends, depending on how well they tell the story regardless of whether or not they go out in a blaze of glory together, but the summarily dumping us here at this point last season? Not. Pleased.) 2 Link to comment
ruby24 February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 If they had bothered to make a huge rift between Boyd and Ava last season, so that there was no mistake she had officially turned against him and was willing to do this to him now, I could accept it better. But seriously, the last scene of them at the prison was her saying to him that she would always love him but trying to break it off because she thought she was never getting out. I didn't see any point where we were supposed to think she suddenly stopped loving him (unless she never did love him, but I never got that impression at all from the last four seasons- it seemed pretty real to me). 2 Link to comment
Linderhill February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 Did anyone else notice the little scruffy beard that Constable Bob grew to look like Raylan? So cute he's emulating his hero. Link to comment
queenanne February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) If they had bothered to make a huge rift between Boyd and Ava last season, so that there was no mistake she had officially turned against him and was willing to do this to him now, I could accept it better. But seriously, the last scene of them at the prison was her saying to him that she would always love him but trying to break it off because she thought she was never getting out. I didn't see any point where we were supposed to think she suddenly stopped loving him (unless she never did love him, but I never got that impression at all from the last four seasons- it seemed pretty real to me). Yes, that doesn't make much sense, and it's also on the heels of them handing Boyd's ass to him every time he turns around last season (loses all his money and everyone who had his back too). Early Justified works for me because Boyd always manages to land butter side up, and I'm not sure that we should have had a ubiquitous moment to be reminded that he's a hillbilly who's always gonna be one step behind - within the show world he should be the king. Let it sneak up on us inexorably if we must have the revelation, but not Katherine hanging a lantern on it "Boyd, you're a crap drug dealer, but you sure can take safecracking orders with the best of 'em." That should be Ava's sentiment to voice, and then it stings him to action. A substitute resigned "cutting me loose will be better - for you, since clearly I am the only one recognizing you don't have the juice to spring me", is dippy, and neither addresses the real problem nor moves the story forward. Edited February 20, 2015 by queenanne 2 Link to comment
tv-talk February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 (edited) I felt Boyd's giving up on getting Ava out of prison was a dreadful mistake. I always felt she pushed him away completely and had no one but herself to blame when Boyd ended up taking the deal that meant she stayed in prison. Boyd was doing literally EVERYTHING in his power to get her out and would have kept on doing so had she not specifically ended things with him in the fashion she did. If Ava turns on Boyd because she just needs to look out for herself that's one thing but if she resents him for what transpired surrounding her being in prison she really has no one to blame but herself. In the end I think she's much more naturally prone to being with Boyd and the lifestyle they led than she is anything else, the possible fling with Raylon will just serve to complicate matters but it will be horrendously weak writing if there is going to be a real spark between the two. Also Raylon might as well take a bullet in the head at that point, what with his daughter down in Florida and Wynona needing help raising her (obviously) while he futzes around in Harlan. No, I think the Raylon-Ava thing will be a moment that throws wrench into the works rather than an ongoing secretive relationship. I hope anyway! Edited February 20, 2015 by tv-talk 2 Link to comment
Ohwell February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 When Ava laid out that breakfast for Boyd I thought I saw pancakes, biscuits, and toast (in addition to the rest of the stuff) . Seemed like a lot of starch to me. Link to comment
cassandle February 20, 2015 Share February 20, 2015 When Ava laid out that breakfast for Boyd I thought I saw pancakes, biscuits, and toast (in addition to the rest of the stuff) . Seemed like a lot of starch to me. Yeah, I expected some of Boyd's crew to be joining them for breakfast but I guess it was all for him. Maybe Ava was trying to make Boyd logy so he wouldn't be able to catch her as fast. I'd definitely need a nap after eating all that. Link to comment
queenanne February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I always felt she pushed him away completely and had no one but herself to blame when Boyd ended up taking the deal that meant she stayed in prison. Boyd was doing literally EVERYTHING in his power to get her out and would have kept on doing so had she not specifically ended things with him in the fashion she did. If Ava turns on Boyd because she just needs to look out for herself that's one thing but if she resents him for what transpired surrounding her being in prison she really has no one to blame but herself. Thanks for reminding me of that part in the dreadfulness, which must have just made me so mad I blanked. Then I'd say that both characters were sloppily forced by writer's fiat to act against their nature, but it's worse because a woman who glumly sacrifices herself in desperation should be doing so nobly and poignantly to save the man, not hold it against him when she says "buzz off" and he does. Hang of a time, in fact juxtaposed with this beautiful season of self-referential callbacks, to decide that the proper ending to that storyline was not the distaff flip side of prior "Boyd and Ava's joyous reunion after he is sprung from prison". I'm actually mad there isn't more internal conflict about and in Ava as she betrays Boyd. 2 Link to comment
ruby24 February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 Thanks for reminding me of that part in the dreadfulness, which must have just made me so mad I blanked. Then I'd say that both characters were sloppily forced by writer's fiat to act against their nature, but it's worse because a woman who glumly sacrifices herself in desperation should be doing so nobly and poignantly to save the man, not hold it against him when she says "buzz off" and he does. Hang of a time, in fact juxtaposed with this beautiful season of self-referential callbacks, to decide that the proper ending to that storyline was not the distaff flip side of prior "Boyd and Ava's joyous reunion after he is sprung from prison". I'm actually mad there isn't more internal conflict about and in Ava as she betrays Boyd. Yeah, if they would at least address that part, then it would lend some credence to the fact that they've insisted for the last four years that Ava really did love Boyd. But she seemed to have no problem whatsoever betraying him, so I can only buy that attitude if she never loved him to begin with. And that makes me mad, because the show sure had me believing that she did, for many years now. 1 Link to comment
Blakeston February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 What you say makes sense. If Albert did not recant, Ava had to be made aware of this fact. The DA/AUSA cannot state otherwise to trick her into agreeing to be a CI. He might be asked to agree that his answer will be that he recanted out of love, guilty conscience or whatever to anyone who inquires, and this cooperation is voluntary. Ava and her lawyer would agree to say that the guard and cellmate recanted to protect her CI agreement from Boyd. But this is where I am having trouble. Albert is in the predicament he is in because he made a deal, in which case it is logical to assume he has recanted, and his cover story is part of the deal. He cannot be compelled to implicate or testify against himself. Either he recanted or he did not recant. It would seem he has, and it is up to the DA bring those charges and draft a cooperation agreement (which a judge may not necessarily accept). While the feds may not have let on right away to Ava that they have evidence his allegations are crap (maybe they did not have enough evidence at the time that they needed to move her out of prison expeditiouly), they are absolutely obligated to bring this to the attention of the DA, particularly if Albert made an admission/statement, if they have substantial reason to be suspicious, and if they have any exculpatory evidence in Ava's favor. The reason I say bring to the attention of the DA is because the feds (Vazquez) have no control over how the state DA brings, modifies or dismisses any charges, which a judge has to approve. Ava is imprisoned on STATE charges only. She was not in state prison because of past acts, suspicion of past bad behavior or for crimes for which she has not been charged. If Raylan and Vazquez are withholding evidence that could free her for the sole purpose only of scaring her with threats of returning her to prison and ensuring they get her to do what they want, they both will end up indicted quicker than the ink drying on her bail papers. Heaven help them if, in the process, she is injured or killed because of their actions. They will go to jail. Albert cannot be compelled to testify against himself. If he is where he is because he is making/made a deal, then they know he has/will be recanting, and that will come out in court. Ava's case folds and she has to be released on bail pending formal dropping of charges. His allegations will not hold water and even the most zealous prosecutor will not bring present this case to a jury. Any legal eagles or paralegals, help! For whatever it's worth, I'm a practicing attorney. I don't think we're necessarily supposed to believe that the deal with Ava involved Albert. So far, it's come across like the marshals convinced a prosecutor to drop the charges against Ava - and then maybe the marshals convinced a few people to falsely claim that Albert recanted. As for the marshal's conduct, they're definitely violating the law. It wouldn't be the first time, though. Link to comment
panthergirl13 February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I don't know that Doyle, er, Albert actually recanted either. He didn't seem like he was going to after his meeting with Boyd last season from memory? The Raylan/Ava kiss was completely worth it for what Tara called Timothy Olyphant's sex eyes after - good lord! Oh, THIS. 1 Link to comment
AuntiePam February 21, 2015 Share February 21, 2015 I've seen Ava as vacillating about Boyd this season, after feeling like Boyd ignored her plight while she was in prison. If I remember right, there were times when he was actively working on her behalf, but the two of them weren't communicating. He wasn't telling her what he was doing and she wasn't very forthright about what she was going through. I think she was pissed, distrustful, and ready to dump him when she was released, but then those old feelings started to come back. Enter Raylan and the gang, reminding her that it's either betray Boyd or go back to prison. What's a gal to do? If she could totally trust Boyd, she might open up to him, but she knows him too well to trust him 100%. Link to comment
Shriekingeel February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 Danny Strong's success feels like an old Buffy plot where one of Buffy's nerd adversaries consorts with a demon in return for appearances on prestigious cable series and getting screenplays produced to acclaim. Actually, it's the only thing that makes sense to me... 2 Link to comment
TigerLynx February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 I think Ava has also realized that Boyd is a dreamer. He is one of those guys who has lots of plans and ambitions, in his case criminal enterprises, but his schemes never seem to work out the way they are supposed to. Boyd always manages to land on his feet, but everyone around him, not so much. 4 Link to comment
biakbiak February 22, 2015 Share February 22, 2015 Danny Strong's success feels like an old Buffy plot where one of Buffy's nerd adversaries consorts with a demon in return for appearances on prestigious cable series and getting screenplays produced to acclaim. Actually, it's the only thing that makes sense to me... It actually sort of is one, starring Danny Strong! 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo February 22, 2015 Author Share February 22, 2015 When Ava laid out that breakfast for Boyd I thought I saw pancakes, biscuits, and toast (in addition to the rest of the stuff) . Seemed like a lot of starch to me. Yeah, I expected some of Boyd's crew to be joining them for breakfast but I guess it was all for him. Maybe Ava was trying to make Boyd logy so he wouldn't be able to catch her as fast. I'd definitely need a nap after eating all that. In a later scene when Boyd's henchman are at the house having a meeting, you can see one of them in the background getting some of the food that Ava made and then he sits down with the rest of the guys to eat while they talk. Link to comment
Macbeth February 23, 2015 Share February 23, 2015 Choo Choo is needed so that Raylan doesn't seem so dumb in comparison. Of course Ava appealed to Raylan's need to save the woman. (The fact that Raylan threatened Ava last season with instructing the guards to look away should Ava be threatened when she refused to cooperate - well that was last year,)But it was never a good plan to have Raylan handle a CI especially one that is a woman. Art knew better. So of course Raylan wants a "put our balls out on the table" talk with Boyd. I liked the small detail that Tim was ready to go through the doors the second he heard the ex-guard was getting tortured. He didn't say anything - but he was not happy that Rachel didn't give the order, and went through the doors the second Jere Burns et al left. Link to comment
biakbiak February 23, 2015 Share February 23, 2015 Yes, Tim and Racheal know that Ava is a criminal but that doesn't mean that they think she should rot in prison under false charges or a case that no longer exists. Tim seemed especially pissed which in any other show would make me believe that the end game was the two of them getting out of Harlan alive and setting off to some place (they would make a hot couple); but this isn't any other show so I realize that one or both will end up dead. Link to comment
Ohwell February 24, 2015 Share February 24, 2015 In a later scene when Boyd's henchman are at the house having a meeting, you can see one of them in the background getting some of the food that Ava made and then he sits down with the rest of the guys to eat while they talk. I must have missed that scene. Even so, the stuff must have been cold. Link to comment
tennisgurl February 24, 2015 Share February 24, 2015 You know, I`m actually really sad that Ava and Boyd have really gone south. I really liked their smarter, and more well organized Bonnie and Clyde thing. They seemed like they really loved and understood each other, in a way no one else really had before. Ava is at her best when she`s bad, not when she`s needing to be saved by Raylan. One of the show`s greatest villains ever was a woman (Mags), and they have plenty of other bad, or morally ambiguous women, so why not let Ava stay gray? I really want to know more about whats`s going on inside her head. Is she really interested in Raylan again, or just falling into old pattens, or is she manipulating him? Or all three? I really want to know if she feels any guilt at all for turning against Boyd. Like I said, I really felt like they loved each other for quite awhile. Yeah, she`s angry he dropped the ball while she was in prison, but feelings like that dont just go away. I really feel like this is going to come up later in the season, for good or for ill. Link to comment
cassandle February 24, 2015 Share February 24, 2015 Agreed, Season 1 Ava was boring to me because Raylan spent all his time trying to save her and Season 5 Ava was boring because of the whole prison thing. I miss the Ava that smacked Devil in the face with a cast iron frying pan. I've said it here before but I really expected Ava to make the deal with Raylan and then immediately tell Boyd so they could be in on it together, pull some con, and then escape into the sunset together. Instead she's just terrified all the time and it's making her do stupid things. 1 Link to comment
Curious5 February 24, 2015 Share February 24, 2015 Boyd did more than drop the ball when Ava was in prison - he made a deal for himself (good for him) after she dumped him. Now she's still mad about it. I'm hoping that Raylon is smart enough to not get mixed up with Ava again. That would surely mess up the R.I.C.O. case. The pancakes at breakfast didn't seem to fit in -0 yep - too many carbs on the table but then I saw the ad in that segment with pancakes. Maybe Ihop or Denny's? Link to comment
Christina February 26, 2015 Share February 26, 2015 (edited) Okay, the spoiler tag isn't working for me, so I had to delete part of this. Graham Yost's latest postmortem has been linked in the media thread and he discusses the questions surrounding whether the Marshal's are lying to Ava, etc that are being discussed above. Edited February 26, 2015 by Christina Link to comment
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