Small Talk: Which Way to Sleepy Hollow?

[Miss Dee]

Yay! I don't watch it either, but I'm glad they went there.

[Enero]

I watch TWD and even after reading the spoilers I just could not believe they'd have the balls to go there. Imagine my joy when I saw it actual go down.

Rick Grimes is arguably the hottest, most popular alpha male lead on TV right now. For the writers to do Richonne and then for the EP to back up what happened by saying this wasn't a fly by night moment but was the culmination of what's been building between these two over the last three years, was epic and frankly unprecedented.

[spaceghostess]

CooperTV said:

 

Well, the fictional Sleepy Hollow is not a real Sleepy Hollow, hence it has 140,000 population, several Starbucks' and a FBI filed office. The show's world-building made Sleepy hollow into big town. I'm just saying.

 

You're absolutely right to take the 140,000K population in the context of the show's "world." I just have trouble with that context sometimes--which is pretty ridiculous, considering all the other nonsense I'm willing to buy from this and any other fantasy show I watch! I hereby vow that if it gets another season, I'm going to focus my nit picking on more worthy subjects in the Sleepy Hollow-verse. ;-)

Edited March 22, 2016 by spaceghostess

[phoenics]

The ending to SH has actually made me wish I could quit TV in general. I can't even get excited about The Flash anymore because I'm so worried they're going to pull a Sleepy Hollow on Candice Patton. I mean - they've already kinda done that - she was heavily sidelined in the first half of S2a... but even if she's getting more time now - it's not because of her, per se, it's because it appears they are going to try for Westallen. I think.

That the show might finally do WA should make me happy - but all it does is make me fear that they will eventually kill Iris off and screw us again.

It feels like Fox/CW/NBC/CBS and everyone except ABC only does diversity as "a great experiment" and aren't committed to it like they seem to be on ABC. And ABC has a LOT of shows - and it's trying to be more diverse overall. Good for them. Guess I'm going to go back to that network with a vengeance. I need to catch up on Quantico, Scandal and HTGAWM. And Blackish. I'm sure there are other diverse shows too to watch.

I'm even considering giving up Empire, but I can't because of Taraji. She's finally treated like the star she is and I want to support that, even though I think Fox likes Empire because it's got stereotypes that they agree with (LBW, Ghetto, etc), even though I do think the show tries to present its characters with more depth than the caricatures they could be - but Fox doesn't like any diversity that doesn't touch on stereotypes.

I wish I could write a book that got turned into a tv series where I had creative control. But I'm sure they'd just take that control away eventually anyway.

[LeeLeePanda]

The ending to SH has actually made me wish I could quit TV in general. I can't even get excited about The Flash anymore because I'm so worried they're going to pull a Sleepy Hollow on Candice Patton. I mean - they've already kinda done that - she was heavily sidelined in the first half of S2a... but even if she's getting more time now - it's not because of her, per se, it's because it appears they are going to try for Westallen. I think.

That the show might finally do WA should make me happy - but all it does is make me fear that they will eventually kill Iris off and screw us again.

It feels like Fox/CW/NBC/CBS and everyone except ABC only does diversity as "a great experiment" and aren't committed to it like they seem to be on ABC. And ABC has a LOT of shows - and it's trying to be more diverse overall. Good for them. Guess I'm going to go back to that network with a vengeance. I need to catch up on Quantico, Scandal and HTGAWM. And Blackish. I'm sure there are other diverse shows too to watch.

I'm even considering giving up Empire, but I can't because of Taraji. She's finally treated like the star she is and I want to support that, even though I think Fox likes Empire because it's got stereotypes that they agree with (LBW, Ghetto, etc), even though I do think the show tries to present its characters with more depth than the caricatures they could be - but Fox doesn't like any diversity that doesn't touch on stereotypes.

I wish I could write a book that got turned into a tv series where I had creative control. But I'm sure they'd just take that control away eventually anyway.

I'm an semi professional actress who mostly does stage stuff. This mess is why I have almost no desire to act in films or tv. The theatre world is by no means perfect, but I've played so many cool characters on stage that I know I'd never even be considered for on screen. It's so depressing.

[Julia]

from another thread, about representation in Eureka (I think)

Did they add it properly or was it some general nonsense. I'm done with the nonsense.

I'm not sure what your question is? It took place in a (diverse) community which was built around having a very high minimum IQ and working on top-secret government projects. The woman in charge and the man who was recognized to be the greatest brain were both african american, and the badass stalwart muscular white law enforcement POV hero was frequently condescended to about not being as smart as everyone else, including his teenaged daughter. They challenged a lot of lazy stereotypes.

I have no idea what offends you, so I can't guarantee that it wouldn't. I thought it was smarter than most.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Julia

[jhlipton]

The 2 lead Black characters on The Underground are being shown falling for each other.

I'm thinking actually zero for black men. .

I forgot about the black female cop on The Family had an (icky) affair with the dad, but I think that has ended.

Re black men: There's Special Agent Edgar Reade (black) and Sarah Weller (white) on Blindspot.  There's Clive Babineaux: and Dale Bozzio as well as Dr. Ravi Chakrabart and Peyton Charle (off and on) on iZombie.  There's Captain Holt and Kevin Cozner on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.  I don't watch Rosewood, but I think the lead has 2 romantic interests. There are two black recurring characters on The Catch , but again, I don't watch it so I don't know what they're doing. 

 

I'm not sure if these are "epic" love stories (other than Holt and Cozner, which very definitely is), but they are there.

 

Did they end it properly or was it some general nonsense? I'm done with the nonsense.

I think what Sparger was asking is if there was a good series finale, or if it was a fizzle.

[snarktini]

 

I think what Sparger was asking is if there was a good series finale, or if it was a fizzle.

Eureka had a lovely final episode, but IMO at least half of the last season got eaten by an annoying character, so ... depends on your perspective. 

 

Totally delightful show, though! One of my all-time favs. Smart, funny, and charming.

[Sparger Springs]

I forgot about the black female cop on The Family had an (icky) affair with the dad, but I think that has ended.

Re black men: There's Special Agent Edgar Reade (black) and Sarah Weller (white) on Blindspot.  There's Clive Babineaux: and Dale Bozzio as well as Dr. Ravi Chakrabart and Peyton Charle (off and on) on iZombie.  There's Captain Holt and Kevin Cozner on Brooklyn Nine-Nine.  I don't watch Rosewood, but I think the lead has 2 romantic interests. There are two black recurring characters on The Catch , but again, I don't watch it so I don't know what they're doing. 

 

I'm not sure if these are "epic" love stories (other than Holt and Cozner, which very definitely is), but they are there.

 

I think what Sparger was asking is if there was a good series finale, or if it was a fizzle.

i was asking if the series ended on a good note or just fizzled out.  Also I would like to see 2 black characters have an epic romance on a television show. Minority characters aren't allowed to be with other minorities in a meaningful way. I actually think there is a law in TV land that says if a gay character is black the partner has to be white. Someone in a different thread said black women only have black men. Generally black women have no one. Not in a way that is front and center and obvious.  Taraji on POI flirted with Reese got one kiss and died. I will admit POI wasn't exactly a romantic show. I still have no idea what the idiots that run Sleepy Hollow thought they were doing. There were a lot of love declarations from everyone except the main characters. Abbie like Taraji got one kiss in 3 years and died, and not even from Ichabod. 

 

I

Edited April 13, 2016 by Sparger Springs

[C76]

The ending to SH has actually made me wish I could quit TV in general. I can't even get excited about The Flash anymore because I'm so worried they're going to pull a Sleepy Hollow on Candice Patton. I mean - they've already kinda done that - she was heavily sidelined in the first half of S2a... but even if she's getting more time now - it's not because of her, per se, it's because it appears they are going to try for Westallen. I think.

That the show might finally do WA should make me happy - but all it does is make me fear that they will eventually kill Iris off and screw us again.

It feels like Fox/CW/NBC/CBS and everyone except ABC only does diversity as "a great experiment" and aren't committed to it like they seem to be on ABC. And ABC has a LOT of shows - and it's trying to be more diverse overall. Good for them. Guess I'm going to go back to that network with a vengeance. I need to catch up on Quantico, Scandal and HTGAWM. And Blackish. I'm sure there are other diverse shows too to watch.

I'm even considering giving up Empire, but I can't because of Taraji. She's finally treated like the star she is and I want to support that, even though I think Fox likes Empire because it's got stereotypes that they agree with (LBW, Ghetto, etc), even though I do think the show tries to present its characters with more depth than the caricatures they could be - but Fox doesn't like any diversity that doesn't touch on stereotypes.

I wish I could write a book that got turned into a tv series where I had creative control. But I'm sure they'd just take that control away eventually anyway.

 

 

Now that you've mentioned it, maybe SH should move to ABC. (Though I think they'd have more fun on cable.)

 

In another thread I responded to your mention of SH's creator. From what I understand, taking creative control away from newbies is one of Hollywood's favourite sports. 

[jhlipton]

Also I would like to see 2 black characters have an epic romance on a television show.

 

Welcome to Shondaland, where black women have romance (epic or not is a matter of definition) with black and white men -- race doesn't seem to be much of a consideration as to who hooks up with whom.  So Annalise (on HTGAWM) had a pretty good romance with her (white) husband until

the baby died

and her romance with (black) Nate has been  up and down but almost always passionate.  Michaela had an epic romance with her fiance until they both realized he was gay/bi (the way it was written, he was a bit more "gender-fluid" than anything), then had a pretty good romance with Phillip (considering they were both using each other...)  (This is Shondaland after all.

 

There have been shows with black couples (there's been a couple of shows with a black cop who has a black wife, for example).  On The Shield, Forest Whitteker was married to Gina Torres (lucky boy!), but the less said about that the better..

 

There are so few shows with black women that finding any minority couples is tough!

[Helena Dax]

I can also add Roberta, from Z Nation; she had a relationship with a white guy and now she's in a relationship with a non-white guy. And on Legends of Tomorrow, Hawkgirl is in a relationship with a white guy. 

[Julia]

His wife is more of a recurring character, but Sam Hanna on NCIS LA counts.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Julia

[Sparger Springs]

Welcome to Shondaland, where black women have romance (epic or not is a matter of definition) with black and white men -- race doesn't seem to be much of a consideration as to who hooks up with whom.  So Annalise (on HTGAWM) had a pretty good romance with her (white) husband until

the baby died

and her romance with (black) Nate has been  up and down but almost always passionate.  Michaela had an epic romance with her fiance until they both realized he was gay/bi (the way it was written, he was a bit more "gender-fluid" than anything), then had a pretty good romance with Phillip (considering they were both using each other...)  (This is Shondaland after all.

 

There have been shows with black couples (there's been a couple of shows with a black cop who has a black wife, for example).  On The Shield, Forest Whitteker was married to Gina Torres (lucky boy!), but the less said about that the better..

 

There are so few shows with black women that finding any minority couples is tough!

All of that shondaland stuff you mentioned sounds awful. I tried her shows and I couldn't stand them. I know I'm being picky. We need way more than Shonda, like we need way more than Tyler Perry.

[DearEvette]

i was asking if the series ended on a good note or just fizzled out.  Also I would like to see 2 black characters have an epic romance on a television show. Minority characters aren't allowed to be with other minorities in a meaningful way. I actually think there is a law in TV land that says if a gay character is black the partner has to be white. Someone in a different thread said black women only have black men. Generally black women have no one. Not in a way that is front and center and obvious.  Taraji on POI flirted with Reese got one kiss and died. I will admit POI wasn't exactly a romantic show. I still have no idea what the idiots that run Sleepy Hollow thought they were doing. There were a lot of love declarations from everyone except the main characters. Abbie like Taraji got one kiss in 3 years and died, and not even from Ichabod. 

 

I

 

Eureka ended on a very positive happy note for everyone.  Added bonus, the finale gave pay-off to a season one episode that, at the time, seemed like wishful thinking on the part of the main character Jack (and shippers who were rooting for him and Allison).  So it did a couple of very nice call backs.  The overall series was uneven (I hated season 3 and pretty much bailed on 3B) but the re-set they gave it in the Season 4 premiere breathed new life in the show and set up the last two seasons beautifully.  I do agree they introduced a 11th hour character that kinda took over in a rather annoying way, but I was pleased with how the series ended up overall.

 

Interestingly, the Season 4 Reset button on Eureka also set up a major African American couple Henry and Grace, whose romance develops on through the rest of the series.

 

Speaking of AA couples, they may be twisted, toxic  and the worst parents on the planet but you can't deny Cookie and Lucious' love  is kinda epic.

 

Outside of that I think unless they commit to a predominantly AA casted show or make the MC Af-Am in an largish ensemble with a diverse cast, the likelihood of getting a hot-chem black couple is slim.  Since the casting for diversity is usually one POC, then their options for romance is someone else in the cast, so usually a non-POC.  If they do happen to cast two POC then the issue will be, are they a believable couple?  Do they have the chemistry or will the audience believe they were put together just because of race?  It is an argument for wider diversity amongst casts.

[jhlipton]

All of that shondaland stuff you mentioned sounds awful. I tried her shows and I couldn't stand them. I know I'm being picky. We need way more than Shonda, like we need way more than Tyler Perry.

 

Ugh.  Tyler Perry.  Do not get me started on Tyler [ugh] Perry!

 

Speaking of AA couples, they may be twisted, toxic  and the worst parents on the planet but you can't deny Cookie and Lucious' love  is kinda epic.

 

So true in all regards.

[phoenics]

True - like JR Ewing and Sue Ellen Ewing (with more of a backbone) epic!

[HalcyonDays]

Now that you've mentioned it, maybe SH should move to ABC. (Though I think they'd have more fun on cable.)

 

AMC. They are one of the channels that can show the grit and violence and sex without restriction (for the most part). I watch more shows on AMC and FOX, than any other network.

 

In another thread I responded to your mention of SH's creator. From what I understand, taking creative control away from newbies is one of Hollywood's favourite sports. 

 

For some reason, I really love this line. It totally tickled me pink!

[topanga]

All of that shondaland stuff you mentioned sounds awful. I tried her shows and I couldn't stand them. I know I'm being picky. We need way more than Shonda, like we need way more than Tyler Perry.

I hear you, although I think Shonda is a more talented writer and creator than Tyler Perry. For me, her shows start out really interesting and compelling, but by season 2 or 3, they veer off into Crazyland and become sensationalized and unrealistic. Shonda begins to focus on Shocking Things! happening to her characters for the sake of being shocking, not because they add anything to character development or storytelling.

 

But I still have respect for Shonda and the shows she creates, with diverse casting and diverse characters of color who are allowed to be complex and flawed.

 

On SH, Abbie was always an interesting character, although I don't think we ever got to the heart of what makes this mysterious woman tick. Season 1 started to unravel who Abbie is by looking at her teenaged experience with Moloch, her relationship with her sister, and even her prior romantic relationships. Of course, she had little to no character development in Season 2, and in Season 3, we all (at least I did) tried to figure out her true feelings for Crane and wondered if the show would finally reveal them. Unfortunately, it did not. Oh, no, it did. My bad. Abbie feelings for Crane were summed up in her statement that she was only put on earth to help him on his journey. So that's who Abbie ultimately became. Crane's magical Negro. My only morsel of consolation is that I don't think the show's original creators saw Abbie that way. 

[phoenics]

For all of you Forever Fans... guess who's coming to S2 of Lifetime's UnREAL (I love that show)?

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/ioan-gruffudd-unreal-season-2-cast-lifetime-1201752718/

[Yolapukka]

 

guess who's coming to S2 of Lifetime's UnREAL

 

 

Funnily enough I found him kind of repulsive after Fantastic Four, because those movies were so damn bad and all the actors seemed dreadful, even though I'd liked them in other things previously . Then years later I heard stories about  the value the director placed on acting, specifically that he discouraged it if actors pulled unattractive faces as a consequence.

[Ananayel]

Well, I've never watched it, but I will now! I just yesterday checked Ioan Gruffudd's IMDB page, to see if he'd landed anything since Forever. I've loved him since Horatio Hornblower.

[frenchtoast]

From the media topic:

I'm siding with your husband on the Watson issue, though.  Suppose we had a story where Watson was too ill to take part in a case and had one of the Irregulars chronicle it.  Would it still be a Holmes story?  I think so.

Twice Holmes penned a story and it didn't feel right at all. Unbalanced and weird. Watson humanizes Holmes, makes him accessible. The best example of this is in the show Elementary. They both support and care for one another. They also irk and irritate with their own foibles. But Sherlock would be unbearable without Joan. Because it's not the mysteries, it's the shared adventure and the joy they have being together.

 

But no, I don't think it would be the best Sherlock Holmes story if someone else told it. At least, going by the canon of stories. Fan fiction is something else entirely. Heck I consider the Guy Ritchie's as essentially fan fiction. I think they're great fun, and Jared Harris is perfection as Moriarty, but they feel like a Holmes story because it's the two them off on and adventure, each bringing something that's needed.
 

[phoenics]

^^^Watson humanizing Holmes is the SAME in how Abbie humanizes Ichabod.

*weeps silently in a corner*

[C76]

I wish I were a fly on everyone's wall in the midst of this storm. I'd love to know what the cast vs the crew, producers, etc., are thinking. 

[Sparkling Beth]

Has anyone here ever read the Mary Russell books by Laurie R. King?  The first one is called The Beekeeper's Apprentice, and introduces a teenaged Mary Russell who meets Sherlock Holmes in the early 1900s and impresses him with her powers of observation and deduction.  She becomes his protégé, later his partner, and eventually his wife.  Watson is mentioned in the books but almost never seen, having retired before Holmes and Russell met.

 

I really enjoy these books, and find this version of Holmes completely believable without the presence of Watson.  The books focus more on Russell than on Holmes but he is still the same very smart, very astute character that he was in the original stories.  I don't know if others would agree, but to me it's an example of how an author can take a well-known character and successfully give his life a different spin.  It really does come down to the writing (which is why I don't expect season 4 of SH, if it happens at all, to be successful). 

[phoenics]

Has anyone here ever read the Mary Russell books by Laurie R. King?  The first one is called The Beekeeper's Apprentice, and introduces a teenaged Mary Russell who meets Sherlock Holmes in the early 1900s and impresses him with her powers of observation and deduction.  She becomes his protégé, later his partner, and eventually his wife.  Watson is mentioned in the books but almost never seen, having retired before Holmes and Russell met.

 

I really enjoy these books, and find this version of Holmes completely believable without the presence of Watson.  The books focus more on Russell than on Holmes but he is still the same very smart, very astute character that he was in the original stories.  I don't know if others would agree, but to me it's an example of how an author can take a well-known character and successfully give his life a different spin.  It really does come down to the writing (which is why I don't expect season 4 of SH, if it happens at all, to be successful).

It sounds like they replaced Watson with Russell to humanize Holmes. Same thing - just with a romantic partner this time.

[bobbysgurl]

Has anyone here ever read the Mary Russell books by Laurie R. King?  The first one is called The Beekeeper's Apprentice, and introduces a teenaged Mary Russell who meets Sherlock Holmes in the early 1900s and impresses him with her powers of observation and deduction.  She becomes his protégé, later his partner, and eventually his wife.  Watson is mentioned in the books but almost never seen, having retired before Holmes and Russell met.

 

I really enjoy these books, and find this version of Holmes completely believable without the presence of Watson.  The books focus more on Russell than on Holmes but he is still the same very smart, very astute character that he was in the original stories.  I don't know if others would agree, but to me it's an example of how an author can take a well-known character and successfully give his life a different spin.  It really does come down to the writing (which is why I don't expect season 4 of SH, if it happens at all, to be successful). 

 

 

This sounds like the movie my husband and I saw the other night called "Mr. Holmes".  Holmes moved away from Baker Street, and he kept bees.  That is all I'm going to say, because someone may want to see it.  My husband was thoroughly pleased with it.  He is the true Sherlock Holmes fan in the house.

 

The last time he watched SH in a TV series was when the late Jeremy Brett played Holmes.  He is has never and now will he ever watch "Sherlock" or "Elementary".  He's seen Robert Downey Jr's Holmes, because he loves the actor.  Other than that, no Sherlock Holmes for him.

 

Anyway, I made the comparison of Abbie to Watson because I wanted to jab at him for calling SH fluff TV, which it is, but I needed to make him understand how deeply the killing of Abbie Mills would be the same as killing off Watson.  He wasn't buying it.

[DearEvette]

I really enjoy these books, and find this version of Holmes completely believable without the presence of Watson.  The books focus more on Russell than on Holmes but he is still the same very smart, very astute character that he was in the original stories.  I don't know if others would agree, but to me it's an example of how an author can take a well-known character and successfully give his life a different spin.  It really does come down to the writing (which is why I don't expect season 4 of SH, if it happens at all, to be successful). 

 

This sounds interesting.  But as you describe it here, I can see how in Ruseel's own in-universe canon the absence of Watson doesn't have an impact since he doesn't really have a presence.  And since he isn't present ever really, his loss isn't felt.  I imagine the reaction would be very different if Watson had been integral to the story in the beginning and was lessened over time.

 

I think when creators adapt other characters or use other creators' source material, readers & viewers will accept modifications and look at the new creation as an entity unto itself.  But once you've created that new entity, you have to be faithful to what you've created and thus it becomes its own canon.

 

This reminds me of True Blood.  Book Lafayette and tv show Lafayette couldn't more different.  And actually book Lafayette

dies early in the second book 

.  But even people who read the books accept that tv show Lafayette is a separate creation and accept him as part of the tv show canon in a way they don't in the book canon.

[jhlipton]

For all of you Forever Fans... guess who's coming to S2 of Lifetime's UnREAL (I love that show)?

 

I watched most of the first season and liked it, but didn't come back for some reason.

 

It sounds like they replaced Watson with Russell to humanize Holmes. Same thing - just with a romantic partner this time.

 

This, I think, makes my point.  You don't need Watson per se to have a Hoilmes story (I almost wrote SH story, but realized this the wrong forum for that!), you just need someone to take his role.

[phoenics]

This, I think, makes my point.  You don't need Watson per se to have a Hoilmes story (I almost wrote SH story, but realized this the wrong forum for that!), you just need someone to take his role.

I don't think this is true. The Sherlock books have endured far longer and been far more revered/loved than the other book mentioned that replaced Watson. Pretty sure if they cut off the original books early on in their popularity and replaced them with the books we mentioned, things would not have gone well.

[Miss Dee]

I agree you don't need Watson to write a Holmes story as long as the "humanizing" role is there. But for that reason, I don't think the Holmes/Watson analogy works for Abbie and Ichabod.

I can't even think of anything, to be honest, where both halves of a partnership are so vital that the piece of art is destroyed if one is removed. That's what happened here. Maybe that's why SH felt so unique. Because it really was.

[C76]

Random Thought: In the days ahead I hope to see what I've missed of S2 and 3. Now more than ever I want to make sure I know SH inside and out. The more I learn, the more confident I'll feel defending it.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Shonda Rimes.

After the mess she's made of Scandal and Olivia, she gets my side eye.

I tapped out after S3.

Got tired of Liv being man handled, marginalized and called slut/whore.

Shonda too busy propping up Mellie and shoving Noel from Felicity down our throats.

Plus political intrigue took a back seat to Alias 2.0

She destroyed that show.

[jhlipton]

Great answer!!!

There are probably people here who would want to know about a great FaceBook group I'm proud to be part of: The State of Black Science Fiction

https://www.facebook.com/groups/blackscifi/

[DJG1122]

I just saw a black Impala with Ohio plates headed north to Atlanta. They will figure things out. They always do.

 

 

(smiling)

Edited April 17, 2016 by DJG1122

[LeeLeePanda]

Great answer!!!

There are probably people here who would want to know about a great FaceBook group I'm proud to be part of: The State of Black Science Fiction

https://www.facebook.com/groups/blackscifi/

I just joined! I'm so happy this group exists!

[3dog]

I don't even know where to post this, but it reminded me of the Sleepy Hollow dumpster fire:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/stana-katic-castle-part-season-162025539.html

 

Apparently powers-that-be who think that the female lead is expendable is contagious. I'm not even a Castle fan, but this story makes me angry.

[MizArk]

So, they've killed Abbie, Lizzie from Blacklist, Beckett (I bailed on that show a while ago), and a woman character from the 100 (I don't watch that one, but read about it). Are there any more? Will there be any women left on TV next fall? Oh, yeah -- two broke girls. Because they're such strong, powerful role models. smh. then smh again.

[DeLurker]

Well, Lizzie from Blacklist made the show unwatchable for me...But SH without Abbie?  Not going to work for me.

[Julia]

Yeah, I kind of see Lizzie as being put out of everyone's misery, although I'm still mad at them for killing Parminder Nagra's character. But Sleepy Hollow and Castle? Not so much.

 

Although, at least Tom Mison doesn't seem to have lobbied for it. I'm sort of looking forward to the schaedenfreude of Nathan Fillion at fifty cornering fans at conventions to talk about how awesome it was to have tight pants on purpose, and I wish better things for Stana Katic.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Julia

[Sparger Springs]

So, they've killed Abbie, Lizzie from Blacklist, Beckett (I bailed on that show a while ago), and a woman character from the 100 (I don't watch that one, but read about it). Are there any more? Will there be any women left on TV next fall? Oh, yeah -- two broke girls. Because they're such strong, powerful role models. smh. then smh again.

Lizzie isn't dead. I am hoping and praying she is, but I know the dullness of Lizzie will be back next season.

[jhlipton]

So, they've killed Abbie, Lizzie from Blacklist, Beckett (I bailed on that show a while ago), and a woman character from the 100 (I don't watch that one, but read about it). Are there any more? Will there be any women left on TV next fall? Oh, yeah -- two broke girls. Because they're such strong, powerful role models. smh. then smh again.

 

It's not certain from that article that they're going to kill Beckett, although the odds are NOT in her favor.  Hopefully, this once, they'll leave the female lead alive.

[Three]

I stopped watching Castle a while ago, in part because I got so bored with the love story and partly just bored.  Why do they think they have to turn relationships into a drama?

They did a similar thing with Beckett that they did to Jenny. She fell in love and became all soft and vulnerable and had trouble dealing with it. Dealing with her "feminine" feeelings that she'd pushed down for so long.  That may have changed on Castle, as I said I stopped watching, but all of a sudden a BAMF woman falls in love and loses what made her great because feeeelings turn girls all conflicted and soft.

This is not thought through, you can tear me down, I may be wrong, but why can't BAMF women just love and get on with things? I'd be up for that.

[bobbysgurl]

I stopped watching Castle a while ago, in part because I got so bored with the love story and partly just bored.  Why do they think they have to turn relationships into a drama?

They did a similar thing with Beckett that they did to Jenny. She fell in love and became all soft and vulnerable and had trouble dealing with it. Dealing with her "feminine" feeelings that she'd pushed down for so long.  That may have changed on Castle, as I said I stopped watching, but all of a sudden a BAMF woman falls in love and loses what made her great because feeeelings turn girls all conflicted and soft.

This is not thought through, you can tear me down, I may be wrong, but why can't BAMF women just love and get on with things? I'd be up for that.

Eve Dallas fell in love with Roarke, but she is still one BAMF. But alas, she's written by a woman. (JD Robb's In Death . . . Series.)

[C76]

I stopped watching Castle a while ago, in part because I got so bored with the love story and partly just bored.  Why do they think they have to turn relationships into a drama?

They did a similar thing with Beckett that they did to Jenny. She fell in love and became all soft and vulnerable and had trouble dealing with it. Dealing with her "feminine" feeelings that she'd pushed down for so long.  That may have changed on Castle, as I said I stopped watching, but all of a sudden a BAMF woman falls in love and loses what made her great because feeeelings turn girls all conflicted and soft. This is not thought through, you can tear me down, I may be wrong, but why can't BAMF women just love and get on with things? I'd be up for that.

 

This is how I felt (feel) about Ichabbie. I'm convinced it's no accident TPTB never went through with writing Abbie and Crane as love interests. I think they kept dancing around it because they honestly couldn't figure out how to write it properly.

***

After yesterday's wonderful announcement about Nikki Beharie's new film (it's in the media thread) I think I'm done speculating about this show. Or at least, sharing my predictions about how SH can be salvaged. This past week or so has driven me 'round the bend.

[jhlipton]

[W]hy can't BAMF women just love and get on with things? I'd be up for that.

 

Buffy (one of the original BAMF women) and Cookie (one of the latest BAMF women) don't let love, romance or anything get in the way of their BAMF-ness!

[C76]

Buffy (one of the original BAMF women) and Cookie (one of the latest BAMF women) don't let love, romance or anything get in the way of their BAMF-ness!

Ha!

 

I keep getting an inkling that I should watch Buffy. One day I'll have to follow through.

 

As for SH, I'm catching up on S3. One episode in, and I can already see why people might've had problems.

Edited April 20, 2016 by C76

[jhlipton]

I keep getting an inkling that I should watch Buffy. One day I'll have to follow through.

 

People keep trying to tell me they made two more seasons after Joss left, but as far as I'm concerned, Buffy ended at Season 5. 

[LeeLeePanda]

Guys, this month sucks so much. I just started feeling less mopey about the Sleepy Hollow finale, and then Prince died. I'm all up in my feelings right now.