S02.E17: Awakening

[HalcyonDays]

But....not all the fans want Ichabod and Abbie together as a couple. It is a mistake that many make, reducing it all down to shipping. Shipping for some people, yes, but not for others. Shipping is a very small component of the rest of the picture.

 

Most of the viewers want to see the two leads on screen in any capacity because they literally create. They are the Mulder and Scully of today, with a few twists. They want engaging storylines and world building. They want certain characters to not be sidelined because those characters are amazing. They want a good scary story with those crazy twists that SH is known for.

 

What they don't want - as evidenced by the ratings - is a character brought in who is poorly written, ill-served by a storyline who literally brings the action and momentum of the show to a screeching halt. They also don't want said character to in turn make all of the other character act stupid and unlike themselves.

 

Again, simply put. No one likes Katrina. If they did, ratings wouldn't have dropped significantly. FOX needed to reverse course and get a ratings boost. A large number of viewers wants that storyline(s) gone. Now those storylines are done. And it has nothing to do with forcing Ichabod and Abbie as a couple.

 

Also, changes could only be made from end of episode 15 and on. That is why it seemed so fast.

 

Look at it this way - lots of people shipped Mulder and Scully, but the show didn't put them together for years and didn't have to. Why? Because the show was written with a good tight interesting myth-arc, interspersed with strong entertaining stand-alone episodes. This is what SH needs to focus on.

[Sparkling Beth]

 

The precedent was already set, when they changed the premise of a show about two Witnesses and turned it into the CFD hour, to please what it turned out to be a minority and to attract more white young male viewers.

Exactly, and that's always a mistake.  I am old enough to remember a show called Here Come the Brides in the late 1960s, which my friends and I loved (we were in junior high) because it was romantic and funny and sweet and had Bobby Sherman in it.  But the audience for it was primarily female, and We Can't Have That.  In the second season, attempting to attract more male viewers, the writers made it into an adventure show, with characters getting kidnapped by mountain men instead of finding their true loves.

 

Ratings plummeted and the show was cancelled.  Male viewers still weren't interested in tuning in, and the audience they did have deserted the show because the writers had changed what that audience loved about the show.

 

It was clear from the beginning that the relationship between Ichabod and Abbie was the primary draw for viewers, and since it was also the premise upon which the show was based, it made no sense for the writers to go another direction.  Viewers feel it as a betrayal.  Next week's episode looks intriguing and I hope it means the writers have learned their lesson and will get back to the focus on Ichabod and Abbie and their mission.  I want Katrina gone once and for all. 

[LeeLeePanda]

I have a question for people, why would it be a bad thing for Abbie to be treated the way she would've been realistically treated if she lived in that time period? I'm not saying they should use the bad word or like whip her but there should at least be a certain undercurrent of inequality and conversations that show what her status is in that time period. I know there is this huge concern about being offensive but it's also ridiculous to pretend she would've been treated like an actual citizen even if she was emancipated.

Honestly, I'd love to see a plot like that, though I don't think these show runners could tell it without screwing up. I feel like the past is romanticized in many time travel stories. Time traveler goes back in time, wacky Hijinks happen, it's all fun and games. Doctor Who and Torchwood are the only shows that I can think of that acknowledged time travel to certain time periods would not be good for POC. I've only watched Human Nature/The Family of Blood once because of how Martha is treated. Likewise, Tosh's freak out about being a Japanese born woman in stuck in World War 2 in Captain Jack Harkness is also hard to watch.

[Dobian]

It was interesting, to say the least, that they didn't say a lot of things you'd expect two white men to say to a crazily dressed Black woman who's being unbelievably (to them) mouthy and bold. This is why I am super wary of the whole time travel conceit--show/plot wise it may work, but they can't have people treating and talking to Nichole Barie the way she would have been treated and spoken to in that time period by a long shot, since the viewing audience would be quite rightly outraged.

I alluded to this above.  I don't think it's so much political correctness as it is simply that Sleepy Hollow is a silly show where the approach to historical accuracy is, "What historical accuracy?"  This is the show where Benjamin Franklin was Dr. Frankenstein and Thomas Jefferson turned himself into a hologram.  They're not going for the tv treatment of Twelve Years a Slave here.  If a modern black woman in full makeup, tight blue jeans, and a brightly colored polyester coat popped up for real in the middle of town in colonial America and started smack talking, Lord help her.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Dobian

[DeLurker]

I have a question for people, why would it be a bad thing for Abbie to be treated the way she would've been realistically treated if she lived in that time period? I'm not saying they should use the bad word or like whip her but there should at least be a certain undercurrent of inequality and conversations that show what her status is in that time period. I know there is this huge concern about being offensive but it's also ridiculous to pretend she would've been treated like an actual citizen even if she was emancipated.

For me, in the right hands it wouldn't be offensive to be realistic.  In the hands of the S2 writers, I don't have the confidence they could handle the balance necessary to reflect such a serious and hurtful scenario even if historically accurate.

 

After the highly questionable decision to place Kantrina in the foremost role at the expense of cast that was consistently knocking it out of the park, they put the spotlight on the race issue.  As far as I can recall, the general consensus prior to S2 was it had a kick ass cast that happened to be diverse and it was awesome.  It was not perfect and there were plotholes, but the viewers for the most part were ok with that in light of the entertaining and unique package it was coming in.

 

Katrina wasn't well written in S1 since she wasn't supposed to survive the pilot, then she turned into the exposition witch.  S2 became increasingly Katrinacentric, but without corresponding effort in developing her character.  After 2 seasons, I have no idea what Ichabod found interesting about her other than her looks.

 

Contrast that with having PoC cast members consistently ignored or used to prop up Katrina.

 

The Katrina Problem doesn't all drive down to race because even Ich and Henry were offered up at their Katrina Altar; granted they faired better because of their relationship to her.  But at the expense of having their scenes be engaging.  TM cranked the acting volume way down to meet KW's level and JN had to scenery chew in hopes of averaging out.  And the writing, especially about Katrina got worse.  She was a great and powerful witch because reasons.

 

So a long winded way of saying that the writers and TPTB completely eroded any confidence I have in them to handle the issue.  I am glad they have taken the position to side step it altogether.

 

Maybe witchiness is a gender-based chromosome (like hemophilia) carried on the X chromosome. So a man can only be at most half-witch, but the daughter of a half-witch woman (Xx) and a half-witch man (X-) could be a full witch. SCIENCE!

I'll buy that!  Thanks.

Edited February 18, 2015 by DeLurker

[Snookums]

I don't think it's so much political correctness as it is simply that Sleepy Hollow is a silly show where the approach to historical accuracy is, "What historical accuracy?"  This is the show where Benjamin Franklin was Dr. Frankenstein and Thomas Jefferson turned himself into a hologram.  They're not going for the tv treatment of Twelve Years a Slave here.

 

 

One one hand, thank merciful God for that. Because Sleepy Hollow is supposed to be a funny, silly adventure fantasy show, not Ken Burns Presents Twelve Solid Hours Of Ultra Depressing Outrage Part One Of Fifty. I'm totally fine with not watching Twelve Years in Sleepy Hollow as far as that goes. 

 

But we are talking time travel, a Black woman being taken to a time where she was less then nothing, not even property. And I cannot trust these writers to deal with that in any context, at all. The only way her situation can be dealt with is to ignore it totally, which is both annoying and insulting. I can handle the most ridiculous things this show chooses to display--Horsemen, Golums, Medusa heads, and enjoy them--but they're really showing their ass by admitting they can't present the realistic consequences of this for Abbie. Good fantasy doesn't ignore the elephants in the room just because they aren't mythical elephants. 

 

Everything delurker said above, basically.

[Captain Asshat]

I have some thoughts of my own about "The Katrina Problem." I'll take those to her thread, because those thoughts don't much touch on this episode.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Captain Asshat

[jhlipton]

For a GREAT story of a modern black woman time-travelled back to pre-Civil War America, I highly recommend "Kindred" by Octavia Butler (with one caveat -- one if three main characters calls the woman a [N-word] for most of the book). I recommend ALL of Butler's works for that matter.

But it is significant to note that Abbie is in the North, which had a large population of free and emancipated slaves (such as Washington's and Jefferson's former slaves). So it's not TOO unrealistic for the soldiers to think that this strange woman might be tetched but not a slave.

[Sparkling Beth]

 

But it is significant to note that Abbie is in the North, which had a large population of free and emancipated slaves (such as Washington's and Jefferson's former slaves). So it's not TOO unrealistic for the soldiers to think that this strange woman might be tetched but not a slave.

And possibly, just to fanwank a bit, her strange attire, strange manner of speaking, and the strange objects that she was carrying, would make them hesitate to just assume she was a runaway slave.  They were confused by what they were seeing and felt safer just locking her up until they could figure out exactly what was going on.  It's safe to say that they had never come across anyone quite like her before. 

[HalcyonDays]

But it is significant to note that Abbie is in the North, which had a large population of free and emancipated slaves (such as Washington's and Jefferson's former slaves). So it's not TOO unrealistic for the soldiers to think that this strange woman might be tetched but not a slave.

 

North versus South is more of a American Civil War division. Instead, it's more English Redcoats versus American Patriots. England was moving to abolish the slave trade and banned slavery as a whole by 1833. Thomas Jefferson did fight against slavery, but did own his own slaves. Washington didn't free his until 1799, his wife early 1800s and only after they both died.

 

Unfortunately, the invention of the cotton gin and economic reasons pushed America to continue to allow slavery, which is why the US eventually went into Civil War 80 years after the Revolutionary War. Also, Canada was involved in the "underground railroad" decades before and up to the Civil War, and at the time, we were under British rule and not a country to our own. Canada reflected the values of England much more than the US.

 

Basically, Abbie might be treated "better" by the Redcoats than the Patriots in certain cases, only because the English public was already very against the practise. But there are bastards on both sides so depending on who she encounters makes a difference.

 

Another thing to consider. Sleepy Hollow is a small town. What is the likelyhood of seeing a black lady (or man) walking around alone, compared to a much larger city like Philadelphia or New York or whatever. Also, I would expect that a lot of people from all walks of life from that time would need papers, depending on their circumstances. Otherwise, how would one know which person was loyal to the Empire or was a Patriot. One could be mistaken for a spy or a traitor or whatever. The people just didn't know and one could be arrested for joining the Patriots, because you were essentially a traitor.

[MissAlmond]

For me, it's not about Katrina or Henry, it's about the precedent set. We've now established that if the fans like or dislike something strongly enough, the showrunners will force that something to occur or be removed regardless of other considerations. A lot of people like the idea of Ichabod and Abbie as a romantic couple. So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple? Is that a stupid abomination of story that betrays the characters' history? Sure. But now it can be done as a "course correction."

 

          No, the showrunner did a course correction because FOX - you know the ones with the real power? - told them to change.  When FOX spoke, the showrunner and writers listened and suddenly these same people managed to once again evoke the feel of Season one.    Why?  Because the boss who mattered, the one who was at the top of the food chain, not only wanted change, they demanded it.  If FOX had said:  give us more cowbell and Katrina, stat, fuck the ratings, that’s what “The Awakening” would have delivered. 

 

But FOX has always been of the opinion that Ichabod and Abbie, together, make the show.  They were hands off because K/O were the beautiful people from Hollywood but when November came with critics barking, ratings slipping and fans bellowing, FOX had had enough.  So, Walden and Newman, decided to remind Kurtzman, Orci, Goffman, critics, Katrina fans, Abbie fans, Henry lovers - all of us -  "Who's the Boss" and said renewal=creative changes.  Not just any creative changes. The creative changes that FOX wanted.  SpoilerTV learned that when FOX yanked their either reworded/or omitted words spoiler.  Did FOX say anything about wanting viewers to think SH was about slavery?  That ended up costing them ratings, when I'm sure FOX made damn sure the "mirrioring" with Ichabod was Abbie needing protecting for being mentally unstable.    These  scripts for the finale have been "network approved."  So if you want to blame somebody, blame FOX.   I’m sure if SH moves forward to Season 3, FOX will make sure this particular mess won’t happen again.  They’re likely to hand out a required guide called:  “FOX’s Non-Negotiable Rules When Writing for Sleepy Hollow”.  And those orders will be obeyed. 

 

And for the record, yes, I want an Ichabbie end game.  But I also  happen to like the new EvilKatrina! and hope she stays while finding Jenny “meh”.  But I’m not FOX.

 

[phoenics]

johntfs,

You're indifferent to Katrina? Is that a new development?

[green]

And a Princess Bride call out - "never get in a land war in Asia".  A Princess Bride reference is always a good thing in my book.

 

Isn't that a General Douglas MacArthur call out?  A pretty famous one too.

 

Nice to see them trying to fix the show.  Hope it isn't too little too late. 

 

I liked Henry when he was the Sin Eater popping in occasionally.  Too bad they ruined the character and had to kill him off.  Rather they killed off Katrina cause I don't want to see her ever again good, bad or ugly.

 

I missed a few episode due to travel.  Did they off that blonde artifacts gopher dude too?  I hope so.

 

I want Abby, Ichabod, Jenny, Irving, HEADLESS Horseman and Andy is it (dead cop with head on backwards a lot anyway).  That's it.  Maybe a few guest visits by former dead sheriff #1 and/or current sheriff #3.  Then the Demon of the Week helping out the HEADLESS Horseman's many plots.  Make sure Headless always brings along both his axe and his AK-47.  That is when the show is at it's best.

[green]

Abbie and Ichabod can absolutely come together in a beautiful, organic way. I am in complete agreement that the Katrina/Henry/Ichabod story was handled in a ridiculous, fuckwitted way. My objection is that instead trying to resolve the situation organically, the show doubled-down on ridiculous fuckwittery. My concern is that the show has learned the wrong lesson. That they've learned that ridiculous fuckwittery is okay as long as it gives the the fans what they says that they want. That there'll be a meeting on set where somebody says, "Okay, the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to be a couple, but that'll take time and be hard to write with subtely and nuance. So, fuck it, let's bring in the goat-people. As long as we get where they want to go, they won't care how we get there."

 

This viewer doesn't want a romance crap thing.  I hate soap operas.  I want a buddy movie with Abby and Ichabod.  So please don't say "fans want XYZ" like we are The Borg and think collectively.

 

As far as fans running a show.  Or rather viewers.  I hate the term fans.  Been that way since the invention of television.  Give the viewers what they want or they leave and you get cancelled.  It's always been about the ratings to keep the sponsors to make money for the network.  Hardly revolutionary.  Just TV biz as usual.

 

If Sleepy Hollow is crashing and burning you either fix it asap or cancel it.  At least they are trying for a fix first which is more than a lot of shows get.

 

(Sorry for two posts in a row.  Me bad).

Edited February 19, 2015 by green

[Miss Dee]

Johntfs, I agree with you in so far as if TPTB decide they can (to continue the Titanic metaphor) keep steering the ship as though they're running away from icebergs, then the show is not going to be a good show in the long run, even if they happen to hit all the beats people have professed to like. Crappily-written Ichabod and Abbie is only marginally better than crappily-written Katrina, and will probably drive away viewers almost as fast.

To use your own road metaphor: I can forgive the erratic drive through fields and houses in the last two episodes because the Sleepy Hollow car was in danger of flipping and going off-road for good; better to drive bizarrely and get back to safe highway as quickly as possible than to continue driving calmly off the cliff.

BUT.... If they get on that safe Season 3 highway and *still* continue to drive erratically through story logic and development and character growth, leaving tons of plotholes and destruction behind, then the fans coming along for this ride have every reason to jump out of the car for good.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Miss Dee

[evilmindatwork]

Tbh, while I loved the S1 IchAbbie relationship, the more recent iteration of IchAbbie professing witness love to one another has only made me wistful for S1 instead of feeling like the ship is righting itself. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by evilmindatwork

[johntfs]

johntfs,

You're indifferent to Katrina? Is that a new development?

 

Not particularly.  I was okay with the character, such as she was, in Season One.  I admit I was somewhat excited about her being "in the flesh" in Season Two.  I believed that something along that line would be a necessary occurrence for Ichabod and Abbie to be an eventual romantic couple.  Ichabod in Season One was a man in love with an idealized ghost.  Katrina had to become a flesh and blood person with human flaws for Abbie to compete.  Add to that I was looking forward to the relationships Katrina would develop with Abbie and Jenny along with the experiences she'd have in the modern world.  Those were my hopes.

 

And my hopes turned to shit.  First Katrina got shuffled into isolation again.  Then it became clear that due to lack of talent or deliberate direction, Katrina was never going to be more than a cipher with contradictory character traits.  I felt a bit sorry for the actress playing her and I played with ideas to turn her into an actual character worthy of interest, but if Katrina had died at any point in the story it wouldn't really have bothered me except for the concern that whatever stupid the showrunners had reserved for her would fall onto Abbie and Jenny instead.

[catrox14]

 

I felt a bit sorry for the actress playing her and I played with ideas to turn her into an actual character worthy of interest, but if Katrina had died at any point in the story it wouldn't really have bothered me except for the concern that whatever stupid the showrunners had reserved for her would fall onto Abbie and Jenny instead.

 

How could Katrina's shenanigans have ended up with Abbie and Jenny?  Katrina's only purpose was a powerful witch...that well not so much and being Ichabod's breathy wife and hopelessly naive mother?  Abbie  already had a very specific purpose established during the pilot and neither of those was witch or wife/mother.  Jenny was in an asylum

[topanga]

I have an easy fix for next week -- Crane shows up and tells the soldiers "She's with me" and he and his buds get her letters of emancipation (which also goes back to the pilot when he asked if she was emancipated). Ta da -- Abbie is now free to go anywhere she needs or wants.

 

But will Crane know who Abbie is in 1781? Will he believe her when she tries to tell him?

 

 

But....not all the fans want Ichabod and Abbie together as a couple. It is a mistake that many make, reducing it all down to shipping. Shipping for some people, yes, but not for others. Shipping is a very small component of the rest of the picture.

 

Most of the viewers want to see the two leads on screen in any capacity because they literally create. They are the Mulder and Scully of today, with a few twists. They want engaging storylines and world building. They want certain characters to not be sidelined because those characters are amazing. They want a good scary story with those crazy twists that SH is known for.

 

ITA., HalcyonDays . It's why most SH fans--even those who are firmly anti-Ichabbie--enjoy scenes with Ichabod and Abbie kicking butt and taking names, hanging out in the bank, or shopping in a hardware store. What makes the difference is their off-the-charts chemistry as friends and partners. Their scenes together just pop, despite whatever plot holes are present in the episode as a whole.

Edited February 18, 2015 by topanga

[Clanstarling]

Aww.. phoenics baby.... just rest and relax and log off this board. Sleep and drug yourself up. We'll be here when you wake!! ;')

 

 

Uh, a Leviosa spell??   (see Harry Potter..)

I laughed at Henry complaining about not being a pure blood wizard, poor Draco wannabe.

[OnceSane]

I deleted several posts which violated our "Don't Be A Dick" policy. Please stop.

[Clanstarling]

I tend to be fairly laid back when I watch a show - I don't delve deeply into every angle, and I have trouble remembering all the plot lines from way back. But eventually, I will get fed up. And I got fed up with Katrina.

 

They told me she was wonderful and powerful, then made her a dreary wet-blanket, with powers befitting a flashlight operating on old leaky batteries and all the depth of the cover art on a romance novel

This, so much. There was a lot of potential with the character. Whether the actress, the script, the directors, or showrunners were to blame. I don't care. I cared that I started not liking the show as much as I had previously. I cared that for some of the cast members, the chemistry, lines and action worked well - but fell flat when it came to Katrina (and Henry).

 

When the teaser for this episode talked about raising a coven of witches I sighed, and didn't really want to watch.  But I'm glad I did. I laughed out loud in several places (Henry's pouting about not being a full blood witch for one). I enjoyed Katrina's turn to the dark (which didn't seem all that abrupt to me, since she'd rarely provided, willingly, useful help for the Scooby gang).

 

I may be in a minority when I say that I think this episode should have been the season finale - and that the episode should have stopped with the old Sleepy Hollow sign (and, naturally, the Sympathy for the Devil over the credits).

 

I'm a little leery of the switch, as much as I like it. It is one thing to have Ichabod moving forward in time - his status as a white man has not shifted at all. Abby's shift will be much trickier, and much more difficult for a show where the key charm is its humor.

[johntfs]

For my part, I don't care that much for the specific realism of Abbie being black in Colonial America.  I don't want to see 12 Minutes a Slave, much less any longer time.  Speaking of being a slave in that time, it's bad enough just pretending to be a slave in Colonial Williamsburg, much less anything more.

 

http://www.askaslave.com/season-one.html

[jhlipton]

 The people just didn't know and one could be arrested for joining the Patriots, because you were essentially a traitor.

 

If you fight for the current regime and win, you are a Patriot.  If you fight for the current regime and lose, you are a traitor.  

If you fight against the current regime and win, you are a Patriot (or a "freedom fighter").  If you fight against the current regime and lose, you are a traitor.

 

The victors make the rules.

 

But will Crane know who Abbie is in 1781? Will he believe her when she tries to tell him?

 

Abbie knows a lot about Crane's history.  "You're best friend was Abraham -- he's the one who convinced you to come to America in the first place.  Gen. Washington has had you carry out several key operations, some of which haven't happened yet.  You helped Jefferson write the Declaration of Independence,and soon after he turned his back on you.  Speaking of that, there's a cool place we've got to go to!"

[HalcyonDays]

If you fight for the current regime and win, you are a Patriot.  If you fight for the current regime and lose, you are a traitor. 

If you fight against the current regime and win, you are a Patriot (or a "freedom fighter").  If you fight against the current regime and lose, you are a traitor.

 

The victors make the rules.

 

That is quite true. I should have said the English and Colonialists. But fact was, if the English found out one of the Colonialists was working against the Crown, well, then you would most likely be considered a spy or at least some type of traitor against the "rightful" rulers of the land.

 

Either way, people had to hide things or prove they were not working against the Crown, hence carrying papers, etc.

And what's that saying - history is written by the victors.

 

I may be in a minority when I say that I think this episode should have been the season finale - and that the episode should have stopped with the old Sleepy Hollow sign (and, naturally, the Sympathy for the Devil over the credits).

 

 

It should have been and would have been, if there was a guarentee of a season 3. *lesigh*

[TV Juriste]

For me, it's not about Katrina or Henry, it's about the precedent set. We've now established that if the fans like or dislike something strongly enough, the showrunners will force that something to occur or be removed regardless of other considerations. A lot of people like the idea of Ichabod and Abbie as a romantic couple. So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple? Is that a stupid abomination of story that betrays the characters' history? Sure. But now it can be done as a "course correction."

This. A thousand times this.

I think what we're seeing is a true failure of the writing team and a network stepping in to correction the ratings free fall. If the course charted by Goffman et al was a ratings (or even just a critical success), it would have continued. For example, David Simon's, The Wire was never a ratings success. But, it was a critical darling and, frankly, it was clearly a coherent story deliberately mapped out by  a true auteur.

 

By contrast, Sleepy Hollow has been a mess. After seeing the ratings free fall, the Network chiefs only needed to watch it to see the problem. This is a show where the writers couldn't remember that they'd established that Ichabod was dead before Katrina knew she was pregnant, dropped the plot requirement that all 4 horsemen of the apocalypse were necessary for Moloch to arrive on earth, have never bothered to explain the mortality/immortality/aging process for witches or the significance of the witnesses, particularly in a post-Moloch world. Oh, and why would the 2 witnesses be several generations apart. The show has potential BUT IT'S A MESS. 

 

The Network execs are stepping in to save their investment and get fans to return. Basically the fans have been saying - return to what was mapped out in season 1. So, I'm not sure the handwringing about precedent makes much sense in this instance. But, maybe the hand wringers would rather see the show cancelled. It's a business - keep that in mind and the choices the network is making to save the show will make sense. No one is trying to serve fans as a goal separate from the desire to keep the current fans and lure more to make money. 

For my part, I don't care that much for the specific realism of Abbie being black in Colonial America.  I don't want to see 12 Minutes a Slave, much less any longer time.  Speaking of being a slave in that time, it's bad enough just pretending to be a slave in Colonial Williamsburg, much less anything more.

 

http://www.askaslave.com/season-one.html

Agree with you on this point. 12 Years a Slave was a great movie, but I'm not looking for that type of realism at 9 pm on Fox after a long day's work.

[TV Juriste]

          No, the showrunner did a course correction because FOX - you know the ones with the real power? - told them to change.  When FOX spoke, the showrunner and writers listened and suddenly these same people managed to once again evoke the feel of Season one.    Why?  Because the boss who mattered, the one who was at the top of the food chain, not only wanted change, they demanded it.  If FOX had said:  give us more cowbell and Katrina, stat, fuck the ratings, that’s what “The Awakening” would have delivered. 

 

But FOX has always been of the opinion that Ichabod and Abbie, together, make the show.  They were hands off because K/O were the beautiful people from Hollywood but when November came with critics barking, ratings slipping and fans bellowing, FOX had had enough.  So, Walden and Newman, decided to remind Kurtzman, Orci, Goffman, critics, Katrina fans, Abbie fans, Henry lovers - all of us -  "Who's the Boss" and said renewal=creative changes.  Not just any creative changes. The creative changes that FOX wanted.  SpoilerTV learned that when FOX yanked their either reworded/or omitted words spoiler.  Did FOX say anything about wanting viewers to think SH was about slavery?  That ended up costing them ratings, when I'm sure FOX made damn sure the "mirrioring" with Ichabod was Abbie needing protecting for being mentally unstable.    These  scripts for the finale have been "network approved."  So if you want to blame somebody, blame FOX.   I’m sure if SH moves forward to Season 3, FOX will make sure this particular mess won’t happen again.  They’re likely to hand out a required guide called:  “FOX’s Non-Negotiable Rules When Writing for Sleepy Hollow”.  And those orders will be obeyed. 

 

And for the record, yes, I want an Ichabbie end game.  But I also  happen to like the new EvilKatrina! and hope she stays while finding Jenny “meh”.  But I’m not FOX.

I posted something down thread, but should have read your post first. ITA - this is a business. Love the cowbell reference!

[Delwyn]

An about face, but like many others (I think; it would take me a week to read all the comments this episode prompted), I can't be mad at the outcome.

My To Do List for this show that they checked off: Irving alive and good, more Jenny, Katrina having some function, Katrina actually having powers, The Witnesses actually being in sync, Dead Henry; well, all know what the grievances are.

So they addressed pretty much everything that bothered me. No complaints here. A great start to recovering themselves, I hope. Not perfect, but made me hopeful that a course correction is happening.

Jenny and Irving hug, when he puffs out her hair: not a shipper, but it made me feel his relief, you know? He was just trying to kill her and is so glad he didn't.

I have hopes that Abbie will come across HH and also Crazy Mother Bear Katrina. It seems that from the circumstances of the time travel that Ichabod and Abraham won't know about the situation? But obviously Abbie and Katrina do.

I hope the network and fans will give them another chance if they are turning things around.

[MissAlmond]

An about face, but like many others (I think; it would take me a week to read all the comments this episode prompted), I can't be mad at the outcome.

My To Do List for this show that they checked off: Irving alive and good, more Jenny, Katrina having some function, Katrina actually having powers, The Witnesses actually being in sync, Dead Henry; well, all know what the grievances are.

So they addressed pretty much everything that bothered me. No complaints here. A great start to recovering themselves, I hope. Not perfect, but made me hopeful that a course correction is happening.

Jenny and Irving hug, when he puffs out her hair: not a shipper, but it made me feel his relief, you know? He was just trying to kill her and is so glad he didn't.

I have hopes that Abbie will come across HH and also Crazy Mother Bear Katrina. It seems that from the circumstances of the time travel that Ichabod and Abraham won't know about the situation? But obviously Abbie and Katrina do.

I hope the network and fans will give them another chance if they are turning things around.

 

"Awakening" received more positive batshit crazy,  fun reviews for Sleepy Hollow than it has in a long time. Even though it was an obvious  course correction, it seems the writers (finally) got things right for the majority of people.  I like the name Crazy Mother Bear Katrina, sounds better than EvilKatrina and certainly better than Love Object Katrina.  Crazy Mother Bear Katrina fits in with the wackiness of SH.  Anyone who has kids has met this crazy lady, if you haven't, accidently misplace her kid's invitation to "the entire class is coming" birthday party, and you will*.  This crazy woman has the potential to be fun and dangerous and is somebody I wouldn't mind seeing on my screen.  Besides, now that SH and I are reconciled, I would hate to lose that wonderful opening shot of Katrina raising her arms on beat.  LOL

 

 

I think the producers also finally found the right person to answer the question "What Makes Sleepy Hollow tick" with Aaron Baiers.  From what I've read of him, he's fairly new in his position with K/O, and yet this newbie production guy has managed to engage viewers and keep his cool.  He seems  to know when to respond and when to ignore those who push things too far.  I really believe it was Baiers who, upon readiang the whole Abbie is a slave rumor, went directly to FOX, who in turn, killed the spoiler.  Alas, the damage was already done, as the ratings fell that week.  But if Sleepy Hollow does go forward, it would be comforting to have somebody in the production seat who understands the show.  Not for pandering purposes either.  I think Baiers has already shown he has the right stuff of judging the fine line of knowing what viewers respond to while understanding writers need the freedom to tell their own story. 

 

ETA before anyone accuses me of being nasty about a child, I'm talking about honest mistakes.  Like the inviation fell on the ground, or the mail carrier delivered it the wrong house (and the neighbor brings it over two days later) or even the kid himself misplaced the inviation - this mother will go for the jugular.  No matter how many times you try to explain "No, no, Henry is invited", they will not believe you.  Even if Crazy Mother Bear Katrina finds the invitation crumbled under Henry's bed at the end of the school year, she will continue to insist: "Well, I was still within my rights to throw that fireball at Abbie's car.  Henry was devasted!"

 

Edited February 19, 2015 by MissAlmond

[Rhetorica]

First, on a shallow note, Orlando Jones looks so good in that black outfit! I'm not sorry to see Jeremy go. It was well past his time. So Katrina is evil. This would have worked a year ago, now I'm just tired of her and fear this just will give her more story. But! Loved the time travel. Abbey will take the lead in this storyline as the witness, while Crane will have to acclimate her to his timeline. 

[DeLurker]

I have always assumed/fanwanked that there are two Witnesses born every generation and something happens that prevent them from meeting each other.  Maybe the other Witness in the 1780s was killed off by Moloch & minions.  Or maybe that Witness (an Abbie ancestor most likely) was somewhere minding their own business and would have eventually met up with Ichabod if he hadn't been killed.  And kinda like the Slayers on Buffy, once a Witness dies another is born to take his/her place.  Since Ichabod never really died,  no other Witness could take his place.  Meanwhile Abbie's line kept going and we see how Moloch tried to prevent her from meeting her destiny. 

Moloch & The Minions should be a band.

 

Was Katrina holding the Grand Grimoire when she cast the Marty McFly Spell?  Cause I don't think she had it when she popped up in the triage tent.

[HalcyonDays]

Moloch & The Minions should be a band.

 

Was Katrina holding the Grand Grimoire when she cast the Marty McFly Spell?  Cause I don't think she had it when she popped up in the triage tent.

 

That's a good question? I don't remember seeing it either. Did it zap back to whoever owned it in that time? Or are there two grimoire's now? That could be interesting.

 

I don't think I've seen any one comment on the awesome expression that Abbie gave, when her, Crane and Jenny were at the precinct. Jenny is saying how a rune as used by Frank to prevent Katrina from realizing he was evil. Cut to Abbie, who just has the best look on her face. It's a combination of "I am so done with this witch" and "of course you couldn't figure out he was evil." Cue Abbie!eye roll. I laughed so hard at that part. Abbie is the best.

[MissAlmond]

 

.That's a good question? I don't remember seeing it either. Did it zap back to whoever owned it in that time? Or are there two grimoire's now?

 

According to the snarky Albert Kim, here's the answer, but first : Yep, Aaron Baiers is the right man for the dealing with fans job!

 

Yes, Katrina used The Traveler Spell from #SleepyHollow 215. That's why it was introduced there--to set up Eps 217/218. We DO have a plan..

 

.

[blixie]

Ooooh Albert, we all KNOW you had a plan, it was the crapassness of that plan we bitched about. LORD.

 

 

Not for pandering purposes either.  I think Baiers has already shown he has the right stuff of judging the fine line of knowing what viewers respond to while understanding writers need the freedom to tell their own story.

 

Definitely I think it's ideal to have someone who loves the show, works on the show, but who is not an actual writer dealing publicly and directly with the feedback (be it good or bad), having said that I'm not buying into the idea that commercial television exists for any other reason than to sell products. The Wire shouldn't service fans, but Arrow or Sleepy Hollow, or Empire? HELL YEAH service the hell out of me, otherwise SHUT UP DORA, I've got better ways to spend my entertainment time, and my subsequent consumer dollars.

[HalcyonDays]

Ooooh Albert, we all KNOW you had a plan, it was the crapassness of that plan we bitched about. LORD.

 

Definitely I think it's ideal to have someone who loves the show, works on the show, but who is not an actual writer dealing publicly and directly with the feedback (be it good or bad), having said that I'm not buying into the idea that commercial television exists for any other reason than to sell products. The Wire shouldn't service fans, but Arrow or Sleepy Hollow, or Empire? HELL YEAH service the hell out of me, otherwise SHUT UP DORA, I've got better ways to spend my entertainment time, and my subsequent consumer dollars.

 

A TV show is a product that people spent time on, that translates into money. Here is another example. Anyone remember a car called the Pontiac Aztec? Some car designer thought it was a brilliant idea. It was designed, built and offered up for sale. Yet the public looked at the thing, wrinkled their nose at it, and sales consequently were low. It was discontinued after a few years. Point being - just because the people in the background think it's a good idea, doesn't mean the general public does. If the general public doesn't like it, sales will be poor and the product will fail. Same applies to TV. A TV writer may think their product is sheer brilliance, but if the general public doesn't, the ratings will dictate that you won't be around long enough to continue your vision.

[Dobian]

For me, in the right hands it wouldn't be offensive to be realistic.  In the hands of the S2 writers, I don't have the confidence they could handle the balance necessary to reflect such a serious and hurtful scenario even if historically accurate.

I'm doing a run-through of Deep Space Nine right now, and watched the episode Far Beyond the Stars last night which is all about racism in 1950s America.  (Sisko is having hallucinations that puts him there as a science fiction writer who writes the story of Deep Space Nine)  It showed how a fantasy-themed show can seriously and intelligently tackle the subject of racism, even better than a show where you would expect to see that subject explored.

[MissAlmond]

 

Definitely I think it's ideal to have someone who loves the show, works on the show, but who is not an actual writer dealing publicly and directly with the feedback (be it good or bad), having said that I'm not buying into the idea that commercial television exists for any other reason than to sell products. The Wire shouldn't service fans, but Arrow or Sleepy Hollow, or Empire? HELL YEAH service the hell out of me, otherwise SHUT UP DORA, I've got better ways to spend my entertainment time, and my subsequent consumer dollars.

 

Whenever I hear "Shut up" now, I picture Danny Trejo in that great Brady Bunch snickers commercial:

 

FOX: "And what do you think is wrong with Sleepy Hollow?" 

 

Goffman and Company: "Um, we need more time for the Crane love story to play out and for viewers to finally understand how awesome Katrina is?"

 

FOX: "SHUT UP!" (slams down machette).  "It's time to teach you guys a lesson."

 

Anyway, ITA I totally agree Baiers works because his from production so he probably understands things more than the creatives.

 

Also, it's not just network TV that wants consumer dollars.  Netflix flat out stated "House of Cards" was totally developed using internal Netflix data on what their subscribers liked.  It was rather creepy and didn't even work for me, because - while I don't mind Kevin Spacey - I've never had a desire to watch HOC or any other streaming show.

 

Now I really must stop "Interneting" immediately.

Edited February 19, 2015 by MissAlmond

[HalcyonDays]

I'm doing a run-through of Deep Space Nine right now, and watched the episode Far Beyond the Stars last night which is all about racism in 1950s America.  (Sisko is having hallucinations that puts him there as a science fiction writer who writes the story of Deep Space Nine)  It showed how a fantasy-themed show can seriously and intelligently tackle the subject of racism, even better than a show where you would expect to see that subject explored.

 

This is a fabulous example. DS9 is hands down the best Trek IMO and Sisko my favourite Captain. This episode was great too, and the whole series did really well addressing the conflicts between the different alien races. Avery Brooks was very adamant about addressing racial issues in the show and had the clout to do it, especially in the later seasons.

 

But this example is perfect is illustrating how the right writers can properly address complex scenarios (racial or otherwise) in a science fiction/fantasy scenario. They even went against Roddenberry's vision and wrote complex myth-arcs and rich conflict in the series. The stories had gravitas, but also had goofy low key fun episodes. Wish some of those writers would head to SH. This is a perfect example of great writers understanding their character and going with what works and also allowing the talented actors bring nuance and life to the character. I mean, both Garak and Dukat (both Cardassians) were fleshed out and became very complex well written characters, all due to good writing but also exceptionally talented actors.

 

Sleepy Hollow can do it. They've done it at times. They have the acting talent to do it. The pieces are there. They are reheading in the right direction. If there is a season 3, there is a huge amount of potential to make it absolutely great.

[BrokenRemote]

I went back to look at the Akeda episode to see the statue again. I wanted to see what how it was dressed but there wasn't a good view of it in the episode. Ichabod did remark that the resemblance was uncanny.

Something has been bugging me about the whole Witness thing. If the two Witnesses need to be together to fulfill whatever prophecy is in store, why would the Witnesses not be born and living in the same century? Jefferson mentioned that he couldn't interfere or give Crane information until the second Witness was present so why would Abbie be chosen when she wouldn't be born for a couple of centuries? It seems very complicated for a Witness to have to time travel to fulfill his destiny.

Maybe it's already been said but I've wondered if Grace was originally supposed to be the other witness but died prematurely. And Abbie (of the inverted same names) was the first of her descendants to be alive at the same time as Crane or his descendants ( of which there were none thanks to Katrina). They made a lot of Grace and her similarities to Abbie at the beginning.

ETA Sorry, DJG1122, you did already say this and I missed it!

Edited February 19, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[Snookums]

It showed how a fantasy-themed show can seriously and intelligently tackle the subject of racism, even better than a show where you would expect to see that subject explored.

 

 

Hell, one of the main reasons SF/Fantasy exists as a genre is that these stories are usually the first to tackle the trickiest, harshest situations in a society.

[BrokenRemote]

I just read the io9 review of this episode (http://io9.com/sleepy-hollow-starts-the-seasons-endgame-with-its-bolde-1686272709). There's a shot of Abbie, aiming her gun from behind the open door of her car -- the car that Katrina is about to blow up.

There's a freaking flamingo in the front seat! How did I not notice that! Katrina blew up the Arbor Day decorations!

Oh, god, that's the sort of thing that made me fall for this show to begin with! And the fact that they didn't point it out and just left it there to be noticed is what makes it so perfect.

[sinkwriter]

I wonder if Abbie bought that flamingo because Ichabod wanted her to (this is the guy who was all, "ooh, batteries!"), or because he was so repulsed by modern commercialism that she bought it to tease and torment him. LOL. Either way, hilarious and a great touch by the props people.

[DeLurker]

OK, the Grand Grimoire question was driving me crazy so I did a rewatch...this time around I noticed:

 

• Henry tried the Awakening Spell on his own before going and getting cozy with Mum.  I'm sure if he had succeeded without her, she'd be toast.
• Henry describes his prior bad acts as "Misguided choices" when convincing Mum he did it all for her.  Gotta love that Henry!
• When Ich was telling Katrina to be careful about what she said meaning it would severe their relationship, all I could think about was the Citizen's Divorce scene in The Man with Two Brains (about 1.20 in)
• When Katrina reached out to caress Henry's face before they were going to do the Awakening Spell, he flinched when she touched him.
• The flamingo was NOT in the car in the ep.  There are two scenes - 1 when Abbie pulls up and then another when she is aiming her gun at Henry while standing beside the door.  Flamingo is in neither.
• Prior to starting the Awakening Spell Katrina says to Henry "Why stop at Sleepy Hollow we can have so much more?"
• Katrina is holding the Grand Grimoire when she does the Marty McFly Spell and is still holding it when she gets absorbed by the vortex; she does NOT have it when she pops up in the Colonial triage tent nor is she seen holding it when she strolls out of there.
• When they first show Ich in the hardware store, I am pretty sure he has both his feet off the ground riding the shopping cart like a little kid.

[BrokenRemote]

OK, I was looking for a reason to rewatch and you've just given me a bunch :D

I just realized I used to watch Season1 Episodes twice at least, and then watched a bunch again over the summer. I haven't done that in a long time with this show and I'm kind of excited to even want to again.

[johntfs]

Maybe it's already been said but I've wondered if Grace was originally supposed to be the other witness but died prematurely. And Abbie (of the inverted same names) was the first of her descendants to be alive at the same time as Crane or his descendants ( of which there were none thanks to Katrina). They made a lot of Grace and her similarities to Abbie at the beginning.

ETA Sorry, DJG1122, you did already say this and I missed it!

 

If anyone "died" prematurely it was Ichabod.  As I recall, Grace was the one who helped Katrina deliver Jeremy at the Frederick's Manor after Ichabod was placed in the stasis spell.

[BrokenRemote]

If anyone "died" prematurely it was Ichabod. As I recall, Grace was the one who helped Katrina deliver Jeremy at the Frederick's Manor after Ichabod was placed in the stasis spell.

Yes, but didn't Grace actually die, at little Jeremy's hand? She could have possibly revived Crane, being a witch herself, and they could have been Witnesses together, if she were alive.

Of course, that brings on the question: do the Witnesses come together when Armageddon is about to happen, or do the two Witnesses coming together bring on Armageddon.

[RiddleyWalker]

Oh man!

Just watched this episode and thought I'd post some thoughts.  Hadn't watched it until just now as I'm binge watching Game of Thrones after @TVJuriste said she might start covering it and… Well, I've avoided reading any posts here until I'd seen the episode, read the first two pages and gave up…. (also, I have to get back to GOT) :)  Much of what I say may have been said elsewhere on the forum so I apologize...

 

1. Despite changes in characters that might not track from previous episodes, I'm willing to forgive and forget. I DON'T CARE if evil Katrina doesn't follow from previous episodes. This is SO much better and I can live with the artistic deficiencies. (Still want Katrina to die, but at least evil Katrina doesn't whisper as much.)

2. Loved the "Man Out of Time" bits early on. Well done! Self-aware without being snarky or cynical. Flint and steel? "Good on ya, mate" as my Aussie in-laws might say.

3. Bobble-head Ichabod? Sign me up! This show could make some serious green with that type of merchandise.

4. Jenny and Irving--excellent! Just what we wanted! (Now twist it a bit--don't want happily ever after too soon.)

5. SH Pilot callbacks? I knew they were coming based on the synopsis of the Finale (as I said in a previous post) , but I really loved the cart going by on the road, the sign with the bird on it and especially the acoustic version of Sympathy for the Devil. If I forget everything else about this episode, I won't forget that. Strong work SH!

 

Has the show dodged the iceberg? I don't know and I've been watching too much GOT to be very optimistic, but I, for one, am looking forward to a Season 3.

[jhlipton]

This is a fabulous example. DS9 is hands down the best Trek IMO.

 

Until they killed Jadzia.  I never forgave them for that.

[TV Juriste]

Oh man!

Just watched this episode and thought I'd post some thoughts.  Hadn't watched it until just now as I'm binge watching Game of Thrones after @TVJuriste said she might start covering it and… Well, I've avoided reading any posts here until I'd seen the episode, read the first two pages and gave up…. (also, I have to get back to GOT) :)  Much of what I say may have been said elsewhere on the forum so I apologize...

 

1. Despite changes in characters that might not track from previous episodes, I'm willing to forgive and forget. I DON'T CARE if evil Katrina doesn't follow from previous episodes. This is SO much better and I can live with the artistic deficiencies. (Still want Katrina to die, but at least evil Katrina doesn't whisper as much.)

2. Loved the "Man Out of Time" bits early on. Well done! Self-aware without being snarky or cynical. Flint and steel? "Good on ya, mate" as my Aussie in-laws might say.

3. Bobble-head Ichabod? Sign me up! This show could make some serious green with that type of merchandise.

4. Jenny and Irving--excellent! Just what we wanted! (Now twist it a bit--don't want happily ever after too soon.)

5. SH Pilot callbacks? I knew they were coming based on the synopsis of the Finale (as I said in a previous post) , but I really loved the cart going by on the road, the sign with the bird on it and especially the acoustic version of Sympathy for the Devil. If I forget everything else about this episode, I won't forget that. Strong work SH!

 

Has the show dodged the iceberg? I don't know and I've been watching too much GOT to be very optimistic, but I, for one, am looking forward to a Season 3.

Ha! Now the site has to cover it. I probably won't write them, Riddley Walker, but I am committed to finding someone who will make them fun (and I need to catch up on last season myself!). If I cover anything directly, it will be House of Cards.  Actually, maybe . . . 

[Happytobehere]

Until they killed Jadzia.  I never forgave them for that.

Don't blame the show, the actress left to "star" in the Ted Danson doctor comedy that fired her. DS9 was stuck becuase no-one would have believed that Jadzia would have left Worf if she had a choice.