S02.E17: Awakening

[Helena Dax]

Like I said about last episode, Katrina has always been shady at best. Also, it seems every time we thought we couldn't see her as part of the team, she was agreeing with us. She never found her place. So while I agree that it should have been done better, it was never unexpected to me.

 

Happy to see Ichabod and Katrina are done for good. 

 

I can't wait for next episode. Since there aren't real  rules for time travel, it could happen anything. Imo, there won't be great changes, though, because Abbie's presence in the past could not  only change the Cranes' lives, it could also change the war, the History, and I don't think the writers will go there. Probably past Ichabod will be the only one knowing about the time travel and I can see his memories being wiped out by a good witch at the end of the episode.

[catrox14]

I rather wish they didn't kill Henry because I do think creepy evil Henry had a valid place in the show and John Noble is so good. But the mistake was making Henry into Jeremy. I could live with a retcon that keeps Henry the Sin Eater around as long as Jeremy stays dead and Katrina stays evil and/or dies.

[TV Juriste]

I agree with everyone -- this episode was a mess.  A big, meta, 'You know why we are doing this, we have to to fix stuff' mess.  But I didn't care.  Because it was all set up and at least it is starting to pull the show out of the crapper.

 

- I liked the beginning with Ichabod and Abbie in the bookstore.  His lamentation that the 'Man out of time' was such a trope and Abbie's name checking Dr. Who and Marty McFly.  It later resonates with Katrina who says she 'never felt right' in this time and now Abbie who is her own 'man out of time' when the show ends.  

 

- When Abbie ends up on oldie Sleepy Hollow.  I loved that whole beginning sequence -- I immediately recognized all the callbacks.  And the 'Sympathy For The Devil' was the cherry on the cake.

 

- It is a shame they wasted an entire season on trying to make Katrina this romantic foil for Ichabod and a spoiler for Ichabbie.  They tried to stuff in one whole episode what they should have been doing all season long.  I wrote in some other long post somewhere else on this forum, that contrasting Katrina's lack of adaptability to this era to Ichabod's fairly easy one, would have been a better plot point than the incessant damseling.  Added to the knowledge that a lot of what she can do witchcraft-wise can be re-created through technology plus the closeness b/t Ichabod & Abbie should have made her more and more bitter so that her turn didn't feel like it was 'Welp, I'm evil now." but something we could see happening piece by piece.  Seeing what they can do when forced to do it, I am even more pissed by the missed opportunities in this season.

 

- I was so pissed they didn't destroy the bell!   Although I did love the utter frustration in Ichabod's voice when he tells Henry he never knew about him.  And Yes, I too added the silent 'Dumbass!'

 

- So glad Henry is dead and Abbie killed him.  SorryNotSorry!

 

- And yes, i think he is really gone.  The cast has been making sure to say that in the interviews

 

- I am so excited for next week.  But I do wonder how it will play out.  Will we get 'our' Ichabod back when all is said and done?  They can't keep Abbie in the 1780s too long, so they have to come back, but what will be changed?  Will Corbin be alive?  I would love for Clancy Brown to be a regular in S3.  Can you imagine Abbie's reaction if she comes back and sees him? What would be perfect would be if they manage to kill Katrina in the 1780s and by default Henry again while in utero!

If they kill Henry-Jeremy in utero that would change several things - for example, Grace Abigail Dixon and her husband would have stayed alive longer, who knows what ripple effects that could have on Abbie.

[phoenics]

Okay, I watched this last night and tweeted a bit, but I needed to get my feelings and emotions together.

 

I agree with what everyone else has been saying on both sides--I both loved it and it frustrated me, because it took the most extreme circumstances for this lazy ass showrunning team to finally pull their heads from their collective asses and WRITE, and we've all suffered unncessarily. This should have been building up ALL SEASON, from the moment they bungled up the Moloch story (they couldn't even allow our team the honor of actually stopping the apocalypse, I will NEVER forgive them for that!), this should have been the path.

 

Katrina thinking that she'd lost Henry for good, slowly causing her to go mad. This would have kept her away from the Witnesses, allowed Ichabod to focus on his job and rebuilding his life, and keeping Abbie front and center as the ass kicking Queen that she was meant to be.

 

The consistent B-plot truly should have been about Irving and the battle for his freaking soul. The fake death, the stupid amulet that made him "human" when the plot called for it, his deteriorating relationship with Team Witness and his family as they grow more suspicious of him, sneaking around with Henry while Abbie is forced to do his bidding because he should have still been her boss--THIS should have been his story! God, I'm so ANGRY that so much time was wasted on demon babies and Hawley, when we had the true meat of the story all along! Lyndie and Orlando have CRAZY chemistry, and this could have been a way for the writers to explore that (giving them the great romance that they seem so desperate to write), and keeping the original cast involved, front and center. 

 

Of course it's too late for all of that now, but I think of the possibilities and all of these wonderful themes and tropes used in last night's episode, and I can't even believe that they wasted so many opportunities. I'm not sure if I can ever trust these writers to do the right thing from here on out.

This would have been a far more believable way to do it - but the writers were hellbent on making Katrina the focus of the show AND making everyone believe in the epic wuv between Ichatrina. The writers never considered Mr. and Mrs. BAMF as much more than a C plot - so they would never have brought the focus up to them more. Even though it was a far more compelling idea.

I love what you wrote and it's exactly what should have happened - but as we all now, the show runner had other plans, which were why Henry, Katrina and Hawley were there. They were looking for another audience, hence Jenny/Irving were sidelined.

I don't like kids on my primetime shows, and that goes for Tweenior Citizens and their Mummy/Daddy issues. There really was no place for Jenry here, and his time was up. Good riddance, burn or don't burn in hell--I simply don't care anymore. BYE.

Tweenior Citizens. Awesome.

 

I'm excited for next week, and I want to see Abbie be the hero and FIX EVERYTHING that the Cranes screwed up. I get from here and on Twitter that people didn't like that Abbie was being so aggressive with her 18th century apprehenders, but for once, I kind of see where the writing team was going with this. It's a very sensitive topic, yet this is still a fantasy show. I know how bad things WOULD have been for her back then, but I don't care to watch it play out, I'm not here to watch Abbie being Solomon Northup'd. No girl, no. Abbie is a natural fighter and it was in character for her to question what was happening and to not be totally submissive and on her knees, kneeling before these dudes. I don't want them to pick THIS story to suddenly decide that historical accuracy is a thing on this show, no thank you.

I felt the same way about this part - I thought the way they played this was realistic for Abbie - even though I'm sure she would have been handled far more roughly - but I'm SO glad in this case they weren't sticklers for accuracy.

Finally, I'm a little bit sad. I get that this had to happen, a reset is desperately needed--but this is the last time we're going to see THAT Ichabod and THAT Jenny and Irving, and no matter what, if/when Abbie gets back to present day, they will be totally different versions of themselves, and that makes me despair. I don't want Abbie to be Marty McFly, and remembering certain events that happened in her life that she won't be able to share with anyone else, because those events never happened to them. I'm hoping that the writers will figure out a way to preserve the first season of this show, while eliminating what happened in the second? Possible?

See - I'm not so sure that's what is going to happen. We know that we get an amazing Ichabbie hug at some point - although I guess it could happen between Past-Ichabod and Abbie - but I feel like it's still going to be between Present Ichabod and Abbie. I don't know how, but that's what I think. Hope.

My biggest fear is that Abbie will get back and Jenny will somehow have died in the alternate time stream if they do that...

[cynic]

I took the comments about the coven to mean that those connected to the coven via bloodline would be effected. I actually like this becuase it adds another layer to Irving's placement on the show. Instead of being a random guy who showed up following Corbin's death and the unfortunate person on the receiving end of Henry's madness, he can now be someone with a deeper connection to the goings on of the mythos of the show and as a result, his character is now more integrated into the storyline. Also, the possibility of latent evil via coven bloodline is interesting.

Along those same lines, Grace Dixon was not a part of Katrina's coven. If I am not mistaken, some mention was made in a previous episode of Grace's magic being handed down by the ancestors, which predates her presence in Sleepy Hollow and means that Abbie and Jenny can have magic without being connected to or effected by that which is designed to awaken the off-spring of Katrina's coven. In addition, such a coven break actually aligns quite well with Season One where there were repeated references to Good Coven and Bad Coven. It can now be retconned that by going back in time and whatever her actions will be Katrina lays the framework for what she and some new characters to be introduced to represent Bad Coven and Abbie/Jenny and any additional characters they choose to add and connect to them represent Good Coven.

...

It still doesn't make sense to me.

When Crane and Abbie looked up the bell, they said it would awaken those with witch heritage. Henry basically said the same thing when he said he was trying to bring back their kind/breed, but that it only effected a few of those with witch blood. I don't think it specifically had to do with a particular coven's bloodline, because Katrina was confused as to why he Henry wanted to awaken witches and then he explains to her that they could have a coven. No one ever mentions that they're only awakening her coven's descendants. Also, the Grand Grimoire wasn't from her coven, so I don't think the spell was specifically for them.

...As for why the bell didn't call Abbie or Jenny. I think it only called those close to the Bell. And I think it only called witched prone to dark magic.

...

Abbie was next to the bell the second time they did the ritual.

Yes, they could have meant they were awakening just dark witches since the Grand Grimoire has dark magic in it, but it would have been nice if the show actually mentioned that then. Also, it makes me sad to think that Macy is a dark witch.

[pcta]

My biggest fear is that Abbie will get back and Jenny will somehow have died in the alternate time stream if they do that...

Yup, we all have trust issues with TPTB. I hadn't even contemplated that. Now, I have something else to worry about. Sigh.

[phoenics]

Yup, we all have trust issues with TPTB. I hadn't even contemplated that. Now, I have something else to worry about. Sigh.

Sorry! I keep thinking about the premiere this year with Jenny and Katrina gone and keep wondering if that was foreshadowing... but since they've killed Henry and probably want to avoid fan backlash, maybe that won't happen.

[JodhaBai]

If you want to see what John Noble can do watch Fringe.   SH writers didn't know what to do with him.    I thought SH was going to be my next Fringe.  Great mythology. Great characters.  Too bad the writers of S2 have been an epic fail. 

[catrox14]

I loved Fringe. One of my favorite shows.  He was so great as Walter Bishop.

[Watermelon]

I don't normally nitpick bad writing, because I don't usually pay enough attention, but I did notice something.

 

When Abbie and Ichy are talking about the Spell of Awakening, one of them says the descendants could number the thousands. The other immediately specifies 1,000.

 

Later, when Henry is talking to Katrina he says the same thing about 1,000 witches.

 

The fact that one Witness and Henry both jump to 1,000 witches, given no information is kind of odd/silly.

[johntfs]

Absent Hessians on dinosaurs next week, I'm done with this show.  Actually, I'm pretty much done with the show now.  It's ruined for me.  It wasn't Katrina or Henry or lack of Irving or Jenny or Crane Family Drama that did it.  It was this episode.  This episode proves that The Powers That Be are officially The Fanbase.  This episode was about "Giving the Fans What They Want" without regard to plot or character or story logic. So, at this point, fan service trumps everything.  Do the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to get married?  Fine.  Do they want Irving, Jenny Ichabod and Abbie to have a sexual foursome?  Fine. 

 

See, fan input seems like a good thing at first.  However, generally the worst movies, TV episodes, etc. are those written by committee.  Those that try to please everyone.  Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands. There is a reason that "fan fiction" is a synonym for "shitty, self-indulgent writing."  We got an object lesson in that this episode.  I suspect the next part of that lesson will come next week.

[phoenics]

Better to be written by thousands who actually watch and bring ratings UP than tens who don't seem to care that their "fan fiction" version of the show brought ratings DOWN.

But that aside - this episode WAS clunky and rushed - BUT it was necessary to prove to the millions of fans who left that Sleepy Hollow wants them back and is prepared to go back to what made it great in Season 1.

If you liked Season 1 - then I think you will like the new direction.

If you loooooved Season 2 - well, you're in the minority.

Sorry?

[savinggrace]

I went back to look at the Akeda episode to see the statue again. I wanted to see what how it was dressed but there wasn't a good view of it in the episode. Ichabod did remark that the resemblance was uncanny.

Something has been bugging me about the whole Witness thing. If the two Witnesses need to be together to fulfill whatever prophecy is in store, why would the Witnesses not be born and living in the same century? Jefferson mentioned that he couldn't interfere or give Crane information until the second Witness was present so why would Abbie be chosen when she wouldn't be born for a couple of centuries? It seems very complicated for a Witness to have to time travel to fulfill his destiny.

[sinkwriter]

 

Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands. There is a reason that "fan fiction" is a synonym for "shitty, self-indulgent writing."

 

I would argue with this because there are always exceptions to the rule. Most of fanfiction is shitty and self-indulgent, but there are authors out there who are talented enough to write a great story that isn't some lame wish fulfillment that destroys the foundation of the actual show. It's rare, but they're out there. You just have to dig through a lot of dirt to get to those jewels buried underneath.

 

And sometimes I think certain fanfic writers (not all, not even most, but some) actually have a better and bigger appreciation for the show and its characters and what works about it than the showrunners do (possibly because the  fanfic writers have time to think about these things and ponder options and play with the possibilities, while showrunners have a small window of time to make decisions and come up with ideas and sometimes I think they are hindered by a lot of bullshit behind the scenes).

 

I think the problem comes when the showrunners don't have a strong enough plan for their own show, or they don't take the time to develop a believable and authentic pathway for that plan. They try to force stories even if they don't make sense. When the plan falls apart, fans balk, and the showrunners scramble to make it "better." Only -- because it no longer has a solid foundation (or never did) -- their alterations make things worse because they're forcing and stretching their stories to directions that they think will make things better but are actually even less believable or less connected to what did work about the show in the first place.

 

Sometimes I'll watch a show and wonder, do the creators even watch their own show? Do they know what works about it? Do they know why this part is endearing and special, and why this part doesn't work as well? Those showrunners that are emotionally well connected to their characters and what makes them sing seem to be the ones who are more successful at creating a well-rounded plan for them.

Edited February 18, 2015 by sinkwriter

[catrox14]

Absent Hessians on dinosaurs next week, I'm done with this show.  Actually, I'm pretty much done with the show now.  It's ruined for me.  It wasn't Katrina or Henry or lack of Irving or Jenny or Crane Family Drama that did it.  It was this episode.  This episode proves that The Powers That Be are officially The Fanbase.  This episode was about "Giving the Fans What They Want" without regard to plot or character or story logic. So, at this point, fan service trumps everything.  Do the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to get married?  Fine.  Do they want Irving, Jenny Ichabod and Abbie to have a sexual foursome?  Fine. 

 

See, fan input seems like a good thing at first.  However, generally the worst movies, TV episodes, etc. are those written by committee.  Those that try to please everyone.  Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands. There is a reason that "fan fiction" is a synonym for "shitty, self-indulgent writing."  We got an object lesson in that this episode.  I suspect the next part of that lesson will come next week.

 

 The relationship between Abbie and Ichabod in whatever manner that materializes, partners, co-witnesses, friends...maybe more one day is what drove the show from the beginning along with all the other batshit shenanigans.  I literally do not understand how going back to what made this show a big hit in s1 is fanservice .

[DJG1122]

I went back to look at the Akeda episode to see the statue again. I wanted to see what how it was dressed but there wasn't a good view of it in the episode. Ichabod did remark that the resemblance was uncanny.

Something has been bugging me about the whole Witness thing. If the two Witnesses need to be together to fulfill whatever prophecy is in store, why would the Witnesses not be born and living in the same century? Jefferson mentioned that he couldn't interfere or give Crane information until the second Witness was present so why would Abbie be chosen when she wouldn't be born for a couple of centuries? It seems very complicated for a Witness to have to time travel to fulfill his destiny.

Maybe the 2nd Witness was Grace and Ichabod died before they could get together.

Edited February 18, 2015 by DJG1122

[vanarnd1]

EXACTLY!

Honestly, SH ALWAYS had plotholes, silliness, inconsistencies.

Trying to recapture an audience by giving them what originally drew them in is hardly plot by committee. As I've said before, this isn't exactly Shakespeare.

In the end, FOX produces a show to make money. S2 was hemorrhaging money, viewers and goodwill.

I agree and ironically I think Season 2 went wrong because TPTB tried to change the show into a more serious drama with the Ichatrina love story and the conflict over Henry instead embracing the craziness that worked in Season 1. It is a shame because all the writers had to do was take advantage of the Ichabbie chemistry and they could have gotten away with the flaws the show had. By forcefeeding the fans the CFD this season the show is being scruntinized much more heavily and it has not held as well. I give credit to FOX for stepping in when they did and using common sense, which is more than I can say for the actual leadership of the show itself.

[CocoaGoddess]

Yes, bringing the show back to season 1 levels of greatness is hardly fan service, it's .... you know, giving the VIEWERS the show that they SIGNED UP FOR.

 

I didn't sign up for Days of Our Cranes. 

[fantique]

Absent Hessians on dinosaurs next week, I'm done with this show.  Actually, I'm pretty much done with the show now.  It's ruined for me.  It wasn't Katrina or Henry or lack of Irving or Jenny or Crane Family Drama that did it.  It was this episode.  This episode proves that The Powers That Be are officially The Fanbase.  This episode was about "Giving the Fans What They Want" without regard to plot or character or story logic. So, at this point, fan service trumps everything.  Do the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to get married?  Fine.  Do they want Irving, Jenny Ichabod and Abbie to have a sexual foursome?  Fine. 

 

See, fan input seems like a good thing at first.  However, generally the worst movies, TV episodes, etc. are those written by committee.  Those that try to please everyone.  Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands. There is a reason that "fan fiction" is a synonym for "shitty, self-indulgent writing."  We got an object lesson in that this episode.  I suspect the next part of that lesson will come next week.

I will sound petty but I'll go ahead anyway because it's simply the truth. Yes, this episode was a mess, next week will be them caught with their pants down because they treated Abbie like a tertiary character. It will probably be awkward, and thinking rationally will probably ruin it for the viewer BUT it's about them proving they know what they did wrong and they've learnt their lessons. Not to be rude, but with your posting history, I think Sleepy Hollow can afford to lose you if for every fan of your persuasion, they get back the tens that said "adios".

Something has been bugging me about the whole Witness thing. If the two Witnesses need to be together to fulfill whatever prophecy is in store, why would the Witnesses not be born and living in the same century? Jefferson mentioned that he couldn't interfere or give Crane information until the second Witness was present so why would Abbie be chosen when she wouldn't be born for a couple of centuries? It seems very complicated for a Witness to have to time travel to fulfil his destiny.

I remember thinking at some point, when I was trying to make it work in my head, that maybe Abbie was actually born sometime around Ichabod and all they needed was to meet. It came from the fact that Washington was fighting back then as if the Apocalypse was coming during the Revolution. Maybe the bad guys realised they were losing and someone from the bad coven sent Abbie to the future. 

 

 The relationship between Abbie and Ichabod in whatever manner that materializes, partners, co-witnesses, friends...maybe more one day is what drove the show from the beginning along with all the other batshit shenanigans.  I literally do not understand how going back to what made this show a big hit in s1 is fanservice .

As has been discussed on ARROW, does fan service always equate bad writing? A TV show is about giving the fans something to consume, if the writers spend time insulting our intelligence telling us someone is awesome while all witness (ha!) is their failure...Well, fan-service might then actually save the damn show. Honestly if you conceive fan-service as a bad thing, you should want Katrina to have been reduced. The most fan-service thing this show has done was stick KW in that corset longer than necessary and have Katrina be praised every episode so her fans feel vindicated. Let's be real here. There was never a legitimate narrative impetus to have everything centre around Katrina, at least with Ichabbie at the centre of the show, they are actually following the damn premise of the show.

[johntfs]

 The relationship between Abbie and Ichabod in whatever manner that materializes, partners, co-witnesses, friends...maybe more one day is what drove the show from the beginning along with all the other batshit shenanigans.  I literally do not understand how going back to what made this show a big hit in s1 is fanservice .

 

Because the journey matters as much as the destination.  It's the difference between realizing you've made a wrong turn and navigating along the roads to get where you want and bulldozing through through trees, houses and people to take the straightest, fastest course back to where you turned wrong no matter how stupidly destructive that might be.

[catrox14]

Because the journey matters as much as the destination.  It's the difference between realizing you've made a wrong turn and navigating along the roads to get where you want and bulldozing through through trees, houses and people to take the straightest, fastest course back to where you turned wrong no matter how stupidly destructive that might be.

 

And TPTB realized they made that wrong turn when they elevated Katrina. This is course correction.

[sinkwriter]

 

And TPTB realized they made that wrong turn when they elevated Katrina. This is course correction.

 

I'll reserve my judgment on whether or not they're "course correcting" enough, until I see next week's episode, but in some ways I fear they're almost resetting to a bigger nightmare, if they're giving Katrina another shot at bringing Henry back into the fold so they can both be evil together. I'm hoping next week she does not succeed and that we see Abbie and Ichabod reunited safely (and ready for whatever comes at them next). 

[johntfs]

The ratings were up this week. That's kind of the opposite of destructive. Next week will be the real test. If ratings increase further. ...

...then we have an awesome new showrunning model, don't we?  We can actually get writing on demand.  Maybe writers can post their scripts online and fans can vote on them.  Maybe even pick and choose the elements they want.  Actors can come in and be voted out like housemates on Big Brother.  No more of that pesky plot, character development or internal logic.  Now shows can effectively be put together like meals from McDonalds. 

[phoenics]

I'll reserve my judgment on whether or not they're "course correcting" enough, until I see next week's episode, but in some ways I fear they're almost resetting to a bigger nightmare, if they're giving Katrina another shot at bringing Henry back into the fold so they can both be evil together. I'm hoping next week she does not succeed and that we see Abbie and Ichabod reunited safely (and ready for whatever comes at them next).

I don't believe she's going to succeed - unless she manages to get away with Henry to live in obscurity and then to eventually die like a normal person. But I don't think she's going to succeed to wreak havoc on anyone. And I'm pretty sure Henry is dead for good - unless you mean she has Jeremy and they come together to be evil going forward. I don't see that happening either.

Honestly I think this is the end of the road for Katrina and Jenry.

[catrox14]

...then we have an awesome new showrunning model, don't we?  We can actually get writing on demand.  Maybe writers can post their scripts online and fans can vote on them.  Maybe even pick and choose the elements they want.  Actors can come in and be voted out like housemates on Big Brother.  No more of that pesky plot, character development or internal logic.  Now shows can effectively be put together like meals from McDonalds. 

 

I'm just not following your train of thought here. Ratings are what keeps shows on the air unless it's HBO.  Showrunners would be complete fools to not pay attention to significant drop in ratings and try to figure out what went wrong.  I think there is enough information and feedback from the audience and critics that they messed up with the Crane Family Drama which is NOT what viewers tuned in to see. 

[phoenics]

...then we have an awesome new showrunning model, don't we?  We can actually get writing on demand.  Maybe writers can post their scripts online and fans can vote on them.  Maybe even pick and choose the elements they want.  Actors can come in and be voted out like housemates on Big Brother.  No more of that pesky plot, character development or internal logic.  Now shows can effectively be put together like meals from McDonalds.

Here's the thing. You're upset because you like Katrina. That's been obvious with your posts - all of them have been about saving Katrina's character at all costs.

And even though the show twisted itself into a pretzel and abandoned everything that made it Sleepy Hollow in Season 2, you were fine with that because you got Katrina.

Her being evil at this point is the ONLY thing that MIGHT save this character. AND her being evil and the show going back to the Season 1 formula is the ONLY thing that might get the show a Season 3 - and that doesn't even mean that she'll be around in Season 3.

So - you've got a couple of choices. Recognize that your view is heavily in the minority (fans AND CRITICS outweigh you) and either 1) accept what's happening now, knowing to continue and try to drag things out to do it the "right way" would lead to the show getting cancelled or 2) quit watching.

Here's the issue: MILLIONS of fans already quit watching because the show (in catering to fans who think as you do) betrayed the original premise of the show. The show didn't have time to write a perfect entry into Awakening. They were still barreling down the path of stupid until the fans and critics (and tanking ratings) forced them to course correct.

So - agree that this episode had some forced parts to it and that it felt rushed. But honestly? Most of Season 2 felt FORCED to me and apparently it felt off to others too because nearly 2/3 of the audience left.

And based on the fan excitement I'm seeing on twitter (minus the epic meltdowns of a few), FB, here and tumblr, I guess the show would go with those fans... /shrug

[DeLurker]

Because the journey matters as much as the destination.  It's the difference between realizing you've made a wrong turn and navigating along the roads to get where you want and bulldozing through through trees, houses and people to take the straightest, fastest course back to where you turned wrong no matter how stupidly destructive that might be.

Yes, this last ep was going off road in the family station wagon. The alternative was continuing straight off the cliff side and plunging Into the rocks below.

[HalcyonDays]

Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands.

 

I think you have it backwards. The high viewership of season 1 was there, because the storylines and focus and main characters of Abbie and Ichabod (and Jenny and Irving). These four characters appealed to a larger fan base.

 

A much smaller fan base preferred Katrina. Starting mid season 1, focus shifted to Katrina, and inherently CFD. It was at this point that ratings started declining. This can be factually proven.

 

Season 2 hit, and the storylines continued to appeal to the smaller fanbase that preferred focus on Katrina. Ratings continued to erode and erode until we are here at this point with threat of cancellation. Reviews almost overwhelmingly stated that Katrina and/or CFD was a detriment to the show. This was the majority opinion by viewers and professional media organizations.

 

FOX stepped in and retooled the show to appeal to the original larger fan base. That is why ratings are now starting to climb again, because the things that were tailored to the much smaller fanbase were removed, resolved and/or eliminated.

 

By going back to focus on Abbie and Ichabod, the show has decided to focus on the larger fan base. A larger fan base means higher ratings and a more profitable show. If the few viewers who preferred CFD and Katrina storylines bail, the impact to the show will be negligible.

 

However, there is already definitive proof that the larger fan base was dissatisfied with season 2 and therefore stopped viewing. It is reflected in the ratings and reviews.

 

Simply put - if more people preferred the focus on Katrina and CFD, then viewership would not have declined so severely. Instead, the show is moving back to appealing to the original larger fan base.

[Miss Dee]

Ordinarily I am in complete agreement with the idea that a show runner and writers should follow their vision and let the chips fall where they may with regards to fans. Person of Interest has done that and is adored in many circles for it - but the ratings aren't what they were. Hopefully still good enough to continue for few more years until the natural end.... if not, well, sometimes that's the price you pay for following your vision.

I said ordinarily I would agree with this. However, there's a point at which it stops being "artistic vision" and starts becoming "stubborn ego." This wasn't a small subset of fans or a rabid shipper group complaining; critics who had loved the show in Season 1 turned on it; more importantly, the show lost a good chunk of audience.

I don't have any illusions about this. If the vision of the Season 2 regime had kept the majority of the audience, Fox would have given them their blessing to continue; Beharie would eventually have been killed in a "shocking twist" and Winters would have been the official new female lead instead of just the unofficial one.

But the numbers show people don't want that; they don't want to replace Jenny and Frank with Henry and Hawley; and most of all they want Ichabod and Abbie as the new Mulder and Scully (and argue among themselves whether it should turn romantic or not). I have no doubt the writers knew they either found some remnant of the old show to build on and bring in viewers again, or they were out.

Obsessively reading boards and building a story around fan suggestions and complaints is fan service, and I agree it's no way to run a show. Aside from an astute few, most fans have no idea how to craft a story; they don't want to go through the pain of enduring what the author knows has to happen. Fans would have saved Sirius Black and Dumbledore. Fans would have had Mulder and Scully together in the first season. Fans (most fans, not all) are like myself; they can't write stories and that's why they sit back and enjoy the ones of people who can.

But taking a second look at what you're crafting to determine if it's going the way you hoped? Listening to people's constructive criticism of your ideas and execution of same? Course-correcting a work made for popular consumption so that people enjoy it again, using your team's best thinking and imagination as best as you can? That's not fan service. That's smart television.

[Dobian]

I thought this episode was a lot of fun, bad acting and all.  I didn't think it was a stretch at all that Katrina would flip and be Henry's ally, I've been predicting it since last season.  Yes, it's hilarious when she rejects Ichabod in the same breathless whisper as when she used to say she loved him.  The only thing that would have made the scene perfect was if Ichabod fished in his pocket and handed her a rescue inhaler in response.  Abbie in colonial New England and set up to meet with pre-witness Ichabod is terrific.  They're obviously going to play down the angle that she's black in 18th century America and just treat her like any other prisoner until Ichabod shows up, but this is Sleepy Hollow not a historical docudrama so that's okay.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Dobian

[DeLurker]

...Now shows can effectively be put together like meals from McDonalds.

I think you mean Burger King where you can have it your way.

[wayne67]

I enjoyed the episode even if it was littered with plot holes and contrivance.

 

That said. I'm confused about Henry being suddenly mortal and turning into weird ash and floating away. What did Crane shoot him with exactly? He said something about greek fire weapons.

 

I was actually rooting for Katrina and Henry to succeed and activate all the witches in Sleepy Hollow/ The State. It would have given season 3 more of a scope where they would recruit good people into a Good coven and depower the bad ones that they could find (with some spell or potion) and it could be a race with The Big Bad of that season to get enough to stop/cause the apocalypse. I assumed it was going to be like the Buffy Slayer activation, people weren't necessarily going to be good or bad because of the power but use it based on their personality leading to all sorts of random conflict as random civilians were engulfed in the apocalyptic battle.

 

Of course I was confused about the importance of that particular bell to activate the spell but whatever. Macguffin of the day I suppose.

 

Instead we're going with more time travel hijinks. *sigh* I might just write my own fanfiction during the hiatus depending on how the finale pans out.

[Jamoche]

With regards to "inadvertently":  I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Well, up till now the interviews with the writers and showrunners have indicated that they thought we should all like Katrina, so unless that was massive misdirection, they didn't intend to make her sketchy and unreliable.

[DeLurker]

Ahhhh...DeLurker was having some reading comprehension issues. Sorry :-(

Edited February 18, 2015 by DeLurker

[Yolapukka]

 

Because the journey matters as much as the destination.  It's the difference between realizing you've made a wrong turn and navigating along the roads to get where you want and bulldozing through through trees, houses and people to take the straightest, fastest course back to where you turned wrong no matter how stupidly destructive that might be.

 

This is actually my biggest quarrel with what the show did with Katrina this season.  Going in I didn't care for the character, but I was open to having my mind changed, I was hoping they would do something interesting with her, tell a compelling story, make her fit into the narrative when previously her appearances had a markedly different tone from the rest of the show, sell it to me that she was important and interesting and most of all, good or bad make her fun to watch. Instead they bent the existing narrative in ways that left me cold to make her significant. They stopped writing secondary characters and B storylines effectively because they were devoting so much time to meandering scenes of relationship drama for her. They told me she was wonderful and powerful, then made her a dreary wet-blanket, with powers befitting a flashlight operating on old leaky batteries and all the depth of the cover art on a romance novel.  She was so Hapless that by mid-season they had me looking at her like she was the Colonial version of Jar-Jar Binks. It wasn't just her, It was also Henry. They made one another worse. There was a really toxic synergy of lazy writing that came from out of the relationship between mother and son that time and time again slammed narrative momentum to a halt about as abruptly as Katrina's Dark Magic stopped that vehicle in the penultimate episode. Yes there are gaping holes in the plot in this episode and there will probably be many more in the finale, however this show has always had those gaps and they've been forgivable when they succeeded in entertaining me. I couldn't forgive the gaps around Katrina and to a similar extent Henry because they annoyed more than they entertained, I never had even a feeling of love-to-hate for them it was more "go away, kid you bore me".

 

Generally, I don't quite follow the complaints I've been reading about this episode concerning Katrina's turn being too abrupt, It's always been there as an accident of writing that she seemed shady and it existed as an intent of writing that she was unreasonably devoted to her son and had a personal agenda that didn't dovetail with the witnesses' inclinations. We've had a few episodes go by that have referenced Katrina's diminished powers being due to her denying her underlying dark side. which effectively gave us actual reasons for her magic failing at key points rather than the "because reasons" we had been given before, In other words they were working with what they had already written and strengthening what they had established rather than destroying or ignoring it. I don't believe they've made irreparable tears in the fabric of the show in order to kill off Henry or have Katrina embrace evil and potentially disappear from the show.

Edited February 18, 2015 by yuggapukka

[tennisgurl]

You know what I feel like has been happening lately, on several shows that I watch, including? This exact conversation...

 

Writers/Show-runners/Powers That Be: I love this show I created, but I especially love this one character. I think they're the very best character ever, and I`m going to write them into as many scenes as possible, so that everyone can love them as much as I do!

 

Fans/Critics/The World At Large: Ummmm, we don't like that character as much as you do. We actually like some of these other, better, more interesting characters. Can we see them more?

 

Powers That Be: What? You don't all LOVE my favorite character! Well, I`ll show you! I`ll write even MORE scenes for them! And I`ll decrease screen time for all those other "better" and "more interesting" characters, so you'll forget all about them, and love my Favorite Character Ever!

 

The World At Large: Well, we now hate that character, and now we hate you. Please put the camera back on the characters that actually work .

 

Powers That Be: *puts fingers in ears* lalalalalal cant hear you! lalalalala

 

Unless the Network pulls their fingers out of their ears... I swear I could copy and paste this onto at least five different boards. 

Edited February 18, 2015 by tennisgurl

[wayne67]

You know what I feel like has been happening lately, on several shows that I watch, including? This exact conversation...

 

Writers/Show-runners/Powers That Be: I love this show I created, but I especially love this one character. I think they're the very best character ever, and I`m going to write them into as many scenes as possible, so that everyone can love them as much as I do!

 

Fans/Critics/The World At Large: Ummmm, we don't like that character as much as you do. We actually like some of these other, better, more interesting characters. Can we see them more?

 

Powers That Be: What? You don't all LOVE my favorite character! Well, I`ll show you! I`ll write even MORE scenes for them! And I`ll decrease screen time for all those other "better" and "more interesting" characters, so you'll forget all about them, and love my Favorite Character Ever!

 

The World At Large: Well, we now hate that character, and now we hate you. Please put the camera back on the characters that actually work .

 

Powers That Be: *puts fingers in ears* lalalalalal cant hear you! lalalalala

 

Unless the Network pulls their fingers out of their ears... I swear I could copy and paste this onto at least five different boards. 

 

ITA. It's always painful as a viewer when TPTB try and force you into liking a character. It seldom ever works and the audience backlash gets massive. I'm reminded of Lana Lang and her ever growing list of skills that made no sense.

 

Unfortunately the converse happens to well liked and useful members of the crew, they get sidelined for the stupidest reasons to further plot or to service a weak/disliked character and their defined characteristics and skills are often overlooked eg Jenny when Hawley showed up, she seemed to forget that she had artifact knowledge and half a decade of artifact retrieval under her belt.

Edited February 18, 2015 by wayne67

[Snookums]

I thought it was an interesting that no one explicitly said the word slave in that final scene.

 

 

It was interesting, to say the least, that they didn't say a lot of things you'd expect two white men to say to a crazily dressed Black woman who's being unbelievably (to them) mouthy and bold. This is why I am super wary of the whole time travel conceit--show/plot wise it may work, but they can't have people treating and talking to Nichole Barie the way she would have been treated and spoken to in that time period by a long shot, since the viewing audience would be quite rightly outraged.

[j5cochran]

I just read the io9 review of this episode (http://io9.com/sleepy-hollow-starts-the-seasons-endgame-with-its-bolde-1686272709).  There's a shot of Abbie, aiming her gun from behind the open door of her car -- the car that Katrina is about to blow up.

 

 

 

 

There's a freaking flamingo in the front seat!  How did I not notice that!  Katrina blew up the Arbor Day decorations!

 

 

[Snookums]

Mr. and Mrs. BAMF running through tunnels in a shoot out that had me holding my breath - when Jenny shot Irving down, I knew he wouldn't die - I was worried she was gonna get shot herself!

 

 

He was so FEROCIOUS chasing her in his punctured sweater! "Jenny, GET OUT HERE! THIS WAS CASHMERE!"

[jhlipton]

I was very happy with the creaking, lumbering Titanic lurching away from the the Katrinaberg.

I have an easy fix for next week -- Crane shows up and tells the soldiers "She's with me" and he and his buds get her letters of emancipation (which also goes back to the pilot when he asked if she was emancipated). Ta da -- Abbie is now free to go anywhere she needs or wants.

Glad we got half of the problem solved -- I hope next week Katrina gers disolved into nothingness (Delurker is right when she said that Evil Katrina, while 1000 times better than Meh Katrina, was still at high school level was dead on!)

With the book-store owner and Goth Girl, we have two more residents who didn't die as soon as the were introduced (as were CoffeeWoman, GamblinMan and Bik Guy, but not as well developed).

 

I join with others in fully trusting Goffman but hopefully someone from FOX will have final say over scripts (the Disney did with the Frozen characters in Once Upon A Time).

 

I'm confused about Irving. Jenny shot him and he recovered because he was all evil, then he coughs the evil out after Henry died and Jenny is hugging him but he goes sort of limp. He didn't revert back to mortal Irving and die right there? I don't know why I thought he did. I'm so glad I came on here to read everyone else's comments because I was so depressed. I just love Capt. Irving!!

 
The one magic spell that tops all others: PLOTio!
 

Katrina's a full blooded witch now? Knew the women folk were witches, but now Dad is a Quaker warlock? Well, isn't THAT convenient (Church Lady voice)?

Maybe witchiness is a gender-based chromosome (like hemophilia) carried on the X chromosome. So a man can only be at most half-witch, but the daughter of a half-witch woman (Xx) and a half-witch man (X-) could be a full witch. SCIENCE!

 

(I had mistyped "dull witch" but there's only one of those that we know of.)

 

=============================================

 

ETA: One advantage of going back in time:  The Fenetrella hasn't been blown up yet.  Abbie can still get at least a glimpse of some of the books.

Edited February 18, 2015 by jhlipton

[fantique]

...then we have an awesome new showrunning model, don't we?  We can actually get writing on demand.  Maybe writers can post their scripts online and fans can vote on them.  Maybe even pick and choose the elements they want.  Actors can come in and be voted out like housemates on Big Brother.  No more of that pesky plot, character development or internal logic.  Now shows can effectively be put together like meals from McDonalds. 

Fans only get vocal to the point of course corrections when the writers have shown they are incompetent and don't know how to develop a character properly. Nothing about the handling of Katrina was artistic integrity, it was all about wish fulfilment. They changed the show they had started to write with no discernable reasons the scripts can denote. If they announce a change in reins and writers (I want season 1 writers back), I'm sure people will chill out. It takes a lot for TV viewers to actively tell the writers they need to change, it's more a measure of the failure of the writing team than anything else.

 

Ordinarily I am in complete agreement with the idea that a show runner and writers should follow their vision and let the chips fall where they may with regards to fans. Person of Interest has done that and is adored in many circles for it - but the ratings aren't what they were. Hopefully still good enough to continue for few more years until the natural end.... if not, well, sometimes that's the price you pay for following your vision.

I said ordinarily I would agree with this. However, there's a point at which it stops being "artistic vision" and starts becoming "stubborn ego." This wasn't a small subset of fans or a rabid shipper group complaining; critics who had loved the show in Season 1 turned on it; more importantly, the show lost a good chunk of audience.

I don't have any illusions about this. If the vision of the Season 2 regime had kept the majority of the audience, Fox would have given them their blessing to continue; Beharie would eventually have been killed in a "shocking twist" and Winters would have been the official new female lead instead of just the unofficial one.

But the numbers show people don't want that; they don't want to replace Jenny and Frank with Henry and Hawley; and most of all they want Ichabod and Abbie as the new Mulder and Scully (and argue among themselves whether it should turn romantic or not). I have no doubt the writers knew they either found some remnant of the old show to build on and bring in viewers again, or they were out.

Obsessively reading boards and building a story around fan suggestions and complaints is fan service, and I agree it's no way to run a show. Aside from an astute few, most fans have no idea how to craft a story; they don't want to go through the pain of enduring what the author knows has to happen. Fans would have saved Sirius Black and Dumbledore. Fans would have had Mulder and Scully together in the first season. Fans (most fans, not all) are like myself; they can't write stories and that's why they sit back and enjoy the ones of people who can.

But taking a second look at what you're crafting to determine if it's going the way you hoped? Listening to people's constructive criticism of your ideas and execution of same? Course-correcting a work made for popular consumption so that people enjoy it again, using your team's best thinking and imagination as best as you can? That's not fan service. That's smart television.

TRUE! THAT!

 

You know what I feel like has been happening lately, on several shows that I watch, including? This exact conversation...

 

Writers/Show-runners/Powers That Be: I love this show I created, but I especially love this one character. I think they're the very best character ever, and I`m going to write them into as many scenes as possible, so that everyone can love them as much as I do!

 

Fans/Critics/The World At Large: Ummmm, we don't like that character as much as you do. We actually like some of these other, better, more interesting characters. Can we see them more?

 

Powers That Be: What? You don't all LOVE my favorite character! Well, I`ll show you! I`ll write even MORE scenes for them! And I`ll decrease screen time for all those other "better" and "more interesting" characters, so you'll forget all about them, and love my Favorite Character Ever!

 

The World At Large: Well, we now hate that character, and now we hate you. Please put the camera back on the characters that actually work .

 

Powers That Be: *puts fingers in ears* lalalalalal cant hear you! lalalalala

 

Unless the Network pulls their fingers out of their ears... I swear I could copy and paste this onto at least five different boards. 

It is a worrying trend, I don't know what the hell is going on. I mean, I get wanting to showcase a character you like but in all those cases, TPTB seem to always choose the absolute worse way to make that character more relevant. I think it comes down to them assuming their loved characters is popular so when they push them at the forefront for no reason, they think people will overlook the mess because it's a popular character. ARROW is learning a bitter lesson about making characters do OOC things because... reasons. Even if a character is liked, when you make them do ridiculous things that have been established as OOC, people will first frown in confusion, then get frustrated at the new pattern emerging and finally start disliking a previously liked character because the new version can only come across as a self-contradictory mess.

 

It was interesting, to say the least, that they didn't say a lot of things you'd expect two white men to say to a crazily dressed Black woman who's being unbelievably (to them) mouthy and bold. This is why I am super wary of the whole time travel conceit--show/plot wise it may work, but they can't have people treating and talking to Nichole Beharie the way she would have been treated and spoken to in that time period by a long shot, since the viewing audience would be quite rightly outraged.

I did think it was weird AND nobody commented on her wearing trousers. Also, while she was standing by that notice board, we should've seen a bunch of extras pointing at her and giving weird/disdainful looks. 

ETA: One advantage of going back in time:  The Fenestella hasn't been blown up yet.  Abbie can still get at least a glimpse of some of the books.

YESSS, silver lining.

 

I have a question for people, why would it be a bad thing for Abbie to be treated the way she would've been realistically treated if she lived in that time period? I'm not saying they should use the bad word or like whip her but there should at least be a certain undercurrent of inequality and conversations that show what her status is in that time period. I know there is this huge concern about being offensive but it's also ridiculous to pretend she would've been treated like an actual citizen even if she was emancipated.

[Indi]

Absent Hessians on dinosaurs next week, I'm done with this show.  Actually, I'm pretty much done with the show now.  It's ruined for me.  It wasn't Katrina or Henry or lack of Irving or Jenny or Crane Family Drama that did it.  It was this episode.  This episode proves that The Powers That Be are officially The Fanbase.  This episode was about "Giving the Fans What They Want" without regard to plot or character or story logic. So, at this point, fan service trumps everything.  Do the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to get married?  Fine.  Do they want Irving, Jenny Ichabod and Abbie to have a sexual foursome?  Fine. 

 

See, fan input seems like a good thing at first.  However, generally the worst movies, TV episodes, etc. are those written by committee.  Those that try to please everyone.  Now, Sleepy Hollow will be a show "written" by a committee of thousands. There is a reason that "fan fiction" is a synonym for "shitty, self-indulgent writing."  We got an object lesson in that this episode.  I suspect the next part of that lesson will come next week.

 

I'm sorry, but before they changed direction to please the "thousands", S2 was a horrible show that had also changed direction from S1 to do fan service to the handful of fans, who could only connect with StruggleWitch and her romantic adventures with the lead and the main villain. The Powers That Be are that smaller fanbase and yet they didn't write the story with more regard to plot, character or story logic, otherwise their fave Katrina would have made sense. FOX decided that the larger fanbase was preferable to cancellation and I definitely agree.

[johntfs]

Here's the issue: MILLIONS of fans already quit watching because the show (in catering to fans who think as you do) betrayed the original premise of the show. The show didn't have time to write a perfect entry into Awakening. They were still barreling down the path of stupid until the fans and critics (and tanking ratings) forced them to course correct.

So - agree that this episode had some forced parts to it and that it felt rushed. But honestly? Most of Season 2 felt FORCED to me and apparently it felt off to others too because nearly 2/3 of the audience left.

And based on the fan excitement I'm seeing on twitter (minus the epic meltdowns of a few), FB, here and tumblr, I guess the show would go with those fans... /shrug

For me, it's not about Katrina or Henry, it's about the precedent set. We've now established that if the fans like or dislike something strongly enough, the showrunners will force that something to occur or be removed regardless of other considerations. A lot of people like the idea of Ichabod and Abbie as a romantic couple. So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple? Is that a stupid abomination of story that betrays the characters' history? Sure. But now it can be done as a "course correction."

Okay, I watched this last night and tweeted a bit, but I needed to get my feelings and emotions together.

I agree with what everyone else has been saying on both sides--I both loved it and it frustrated me, because it took the most extreme circumstances for this lazy ass showrunning team to finally pull their heads from their collective asses and WRITE, and we've all suffered unncessarily. This should have been building up ALL SEASON, from the moment they bungled up the Moloch story (they couldn't even allow our team the honor of actually stopping the apocalypse, I will NEVER forgive them for that!), this should have been the path.

Katrina thinking that she'd lost Henry for good, slowly causing her to go mad. This would have kept her away from the Witnesses, allowed Ichabod to focus on his job and rebuilding his life, and keeping Abbie front and center as the ass kicking Queen that she was meant to be.

The consistent B-plot truly should have been about Irving and the battle for his freaking soul. The fake death, the stupid amulet that made him "human" when the plot called for it, his deteriorating relationship with Team Witness and his family as they grow more suspicious of him, sneaking around with Henry while Abbie is forced to do his bidding because he should have still been her boss--THIS should have been his story! God, I'm so ANGRY that so much time was wasted on demon babies and Hawley, when we had the true meat of the story all along! Lyndie and Orlando have CRAZY chemistry, and this could have been a way for the writers to explore that (giving them the great romance that they seem so desperate to write), and keeping the original cast involved, front and center.

Of course it's too late for all of that now, but I think of the possibilities and all of these wonderful themes and tropes used in last night's episode, and I can't even believe that they wasted so many opportunities. I'm not sure if I can ever trust these writers to do the right thing from here on out.

This. A thousand times this.

Edited February 18, 2015 by OnceSane
over the top

[Indi]

For me, it's not about Katrina or Henry, it's about the precedent set. We've now established that if the fans like or dislike something strongly enough, the showrunners will force that something to occur or be removed regardless of other considerations.

The precedent was already set, when they changed the premise of a show about two Witnesses and turned it into the CFD hour, to please what it turned out to be a minority and to attract more white young male viewers. This was something that didn't work out too well, but I don't think there was any powerful vision behind it, other than a bunch of problematic showrunners wishing to elevate a certain actress/character and very probably get rid of the female lead in the process. Forgive me if I'm happy it didn't work out too well for them and that fan and media criticism stopped this sickening behavior disguised as "artistic views" in its tracks.

A lot of people like the idea of Ichabod and Abbie as a romantic couple. So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple? Is that a stupid abomination of story that betrays the characters' history? Sure. But now it can be done as a "course correction."

Right. Because Abbie and Ichabod could not become a romantic couple in an organic way and be a beautiful love story. It is funny that the scenario you imagine for them to become a lovers is an abhorrent one. I wonder why (not really). It's even more funny, that most of Katrina's character and storylines can be summed up by a series of ridiculous and contrived ways to make her fit in the story and failing spectacularly, but trying to fix that is problematic? Edited February 18, 2015 by OnceSane
quoted post was edited

[DeLurker]

The precedent was already set, when they changed the premise of a show about two Witnesses and turned it into the CFD hour, to please what it turned out to be a minority and to attract more white young male viewers. This was something that didn't work out too well, but I don't think there was any powerful vision behind it, other than a bunch of problematic showrunners wishing to elevate a certain actress/character and very probably get rid of the female lead in the process. Forgive me if I'm happy

The critics weren't supportive of the S2 focus shift either. And a drop in eyeballs watching the show matter to the advertisers.

[chrisvee]

So, how about if we have an episode where they get kidnapped and debauched by satyrs which shakes them out of their hangups and makes them a romantic couple?.

I'll concede your point -- Whisper!Witch is less interesting than Randy!Goat!People.

This form of television is a commercial enterprise. Quite simply, this show would never have been renewed if it had debuted with S2's Katrina focus. There's nothing new or different or magical about getting rid of a direction -- or a showrunner -- that can't deliver watchable product. This isn't about polling fans to write episodes. It's about desperately trying to recapture an audience that's wandered away due to boredom.

ETA: What I liked about this episode Is that it was designed to shake up the status quo. I may not end up liking where they are going but they were clearly not going anywhere interesting or fun for most of the season so I'll give them a few eps to try something new out. Hopefully they can recapture the Beharie/Mison chemistry which I think has been severely undermined by the turn that the story has taken. And hopefully they keep introducing helpful townspeople and we can keep one eventually!

Edited February 18, 2015 by chrisvee

[topanga]

The dialogue on this show is just so lazy.

 

Ichabod: (paraphrasing) Perhaps there's a way to buy time for Frank in order to figure out how to save him

Abbie: "You mean use the Gorgon's head?"

Say what? How would she make that leap? I get Ichabbie has a connection but is mind-reading part of that?

I must admit: I can't remember who the Gorgon is, why they saved his head, or how it could help Frank. I must have fallen asleep on that episode. Besides that, I fan-wanked this particular line of dialogue. It reminded me of a Castle-Beckett exchange: "I know who the killer is!" 

[DearEvette]

Something has been bugging me about the whole Witness thing. If the two Witnesses need to be together to fulfill whatever prophecy is in store, why would the Witnesses not be born and living in the same century? Jefferson mentioned that he couldn't interfere or give Crane information until the second Witness was present so why would Abbie be chosen when she wouldn't be born for a couple of centuries? It seems very complicated for a Witness to have to time travel to fulfill his destiny.

 

I have always assumed/fanwanked that there are two Witnesses born every generation and something happens that prevent them from meeting each other.  Maybe the other Witness in the 1780s was killed off by Moloch & minions.  Or maybe that Witness (an Abbie ancestor most likely) was somewhere minding their own business and would have eventually met up with Ichabod if he hadn't been killed.  And kinda like the Slayers on Buffy, once a Witness dies another is born to take his/her place.  Since Ichabod never really died,  no other Witness could take his place.  Meanwhile Abbie's line kept going and we see how Moloch tried to prevent her from meeting her destiny. 

 

 

Because the journey matters as much as the destination.  It's the difference between realizing you've made a wrong turn and navigating along the roads to get where you want and bulldozing through through trees, houses and people to take the straightest, fastest course back to where you turned wrong no matter how stupidly destructive that might be.

 

 

 

By the time  Deliverance aired the fan and critic grumbling about the show had reach that place where nobody could  ignore that something was badly wrong.  And yet Goffmann kept saying in interviews 'Keep watching it is all going to make sense, mean something.'   I myself said "yeah but, the journey has to be as interesting as the destination."  So even as early as ep  7  they knew stuff was not resonating with the viewers and they were shedding eyes each week. 

 

Sure it was too late to do anything about the eps already in the can, but by then i think only about ep 12, was completely done.  So  they still had time  to take a leisurely detour that would put them back on the right road.  But they didn't. They kept stubbornly to their route, ignoring the warning and danger signs.  So In my opinion  these last couple of episodes aren't the destructive route to their destination, the first 15 were.

[Indi]

My concern is that the show has learned the wrong lesson.  That they've learned that ridiculous fuckwittery is okay as long as it gives the the fans what they says that they want.

But they did that, when they gave us more Katrina! The plan was to kill her off, but then they changed their plans, which resulted in horribly ridiculous "fuckwittery", that they've been trying to fix very clumsily. At least, they finally stopped trying to fit the weakest link with Team Witness. The next step should be to get rid of that weak link forever. They tried to make Katrina happen again and again and they failed every time. I think that's enough.

 

That there'll be a meeting on set where somebody says, "Okay, the fans want Ichabod and Abbie to be a couple, but that'll take time and be hard to write with subtely and nuance.  So, fuck it, let's bring in the goat-people.  As long as we get where they want to go, they won't care how we get there."

That's something I'll worry about if it ever happens. The #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter campaign had concerns based on reality. The goats can wait.