Philizabeth, aka Мишежда

[scartact]

I think it's tricky to use sex and physical intimacy as something Elizabeth gives Philip because that in itself it continually complicated in their spy lives and the fact that they often must use their bodies to achieve desired results.

However, I think Elizabeth does give Philip as much as she can. Her jealousies with Martha definitely reflected her own insecurities about Philip, but I also believe it's supposed to also be a marker for is of how much she's come to really love Philip that even in the face of a very personal and professional betrayal, she still does all she can to find Martha and bring her back to the safe house. That conversation between her in Philip is incredibly important in contextualizing her feelings during the entire Martha storyline this past season. Plus, she's never accused Philip of loving Martha, but she has attempted in so many ways to try and speak about Philip's feelings toward Martha and acknowledge it to him. He's often deflected her inquiries, much to her own frustrations.

Then, there is also last season where upon learning about Mischa Jr and him serving in Afghanistan, her first response is to ask Gabriel if there's anything they can do about him for Philip. Mind you, this is the very same child Philip had with his first love, who he later had an affair with; this affair nearly destroyed any chance they had at being real during the first season until Elizabeth got shot.

Edited May 28, 2016 by scartact

[madam magpie]

Quote

I think it's tricky to use sex and physical intimacy as something Elizabeth gives Philip because that in itself it continually complicated in their spy lives and the fact that they often must use their bodies to achieve desired results.

I think that's one of the reasons it's such a big deal, actually. Philip and Elizabeth are trained to use sex as a weapon and a means of gathering information. For a long time, that's what sex was to Elizabeth, nothing more than a means to an end as related to her job: she blows marks for intel, she sleeps with Philip to produce children, etc. She probably liked it with Gregory, but the primarily goal was retaining him as an asset. We saw in the pilot how she initially reacted to Philip touching her in an intimate way in an effort to show her he loved her, with no work goal: she turned around with a knife in her hand. But after he showed her he loved her in a way she understands, by ruining his chances of defection and killing Timochev, going against their govt for the sake of avenging her, everything changed. Then we saw them shifting into using intimacy and sex with each other as a way of communicating how they felt. On some level, Philip probably always tried to do that with her, but for Elizabeth, it was a complete shift in understanding. It all kind of comes to a sobbing head in that episode where she wants him to role-play Clark. Had a mark tossed her, grabbed her, slammed her around from behind, I don't think she'd have been wounded. It would have been work, a means to an end, so be it. Her guard would be up, her emotional wall as a defense in place, she would be in control. But she had no defenses or wall with Philip. She was literally and figuratively naked, she trusted him, she knew he knew who she was and what had happened to her, and so she went in blind and relinquished control, which meant she was vulnerable to being seen and to having to confront what had happened to her. It was too much, it overwhelmed her, and it felt a lot like her experience of being raped (when she was young, vulnerable, had no defense, wasn't in control), even though she clearly understood the difference intellectually. So she cracked. But she only cracked because it was Philip and she loves and trusts him. And then after that, the way she is with him shifted again. Later, they had that conversation where she asked if he had to "make it real" with her, a super vulnerable moment where she wanted to know if he was playing her when it came to sex, the implication being that she's not playing him.

I really think that being open, gentle, loving, etc. is inherent to her but severely suppressed and stunted because she believes so much in the value of strength, power, and control. That's how she managed to survive doing the job she does. So when she relinquishes that and has sex with Philip to comfort him or feel close to him or when she lets him touch her simply for the sake of touching her, I think that's Elizabeth at her most loving, and it's her letting him see who she really is, which she does with no one else...except a little bit now with Paige. And the more she falls for Philip, I think the harder it is for her to compartmentalize sex for work. (Him too.)

ETA: I totally agree about Martha and the son. It's kind of remarkable how Elizabeth reacted to the son actually. She felt so betrayed when Philip lied to her about Irina, but we've seen no jealousy or betrayal as related to the son, and she tried to help him. She seems to implicitly understand how much this matters to Philip. Maybe from knowing him for so long and seeing him relate to their own kids? She was nothing but supportive about that.

Edited May 28, 2016 by madam magpie

[Loandbehold]

Elizabeth has also revealed a lot more about her life before joining the KGB than Philip has. He's been very vague (I used to have run away from bullies when I went for milk across town), while she was the first to tell him her real name and talked about her life with her mother. One can say that is showing trust, but I think there's definitely love being shown there. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

ETA: I totally agree about Martha and the son. It's kind of remarkable how Elizabeth reacted to the son actually. She felt so betrayed when Philip lied to her about Irina, but we've seen no jealousy or betrayal as related to the son, and she tried to help him. She seems to implicitly understand how much this matters to Philip. Maybe from knowing him for so long and seeing him relate to their own kids? She was nothing but supportive about that.

Also I think she understood that it meant something that Philip told her about it after he learned about it. He was basically making it something between the two of them, bringing her into it. So even though this is "his" son, it's something he's making about him and Irina, like it's their private secret. (It had been before that, though to be fair Philip was probably not yet sure whether he was going to accept it as reality until Gabriel put it on the table.) I'm sure she would prefer he not have any kids besides the two he has with her (she did refer to Irina as "the woman who had your son" in their fight recently so she does seem to resent that) but she clearly made the decision to be make this kid part of their family. I think that at least partly is about wanting to share it with him and be a support to him about it. She doesn't like being shut out of things about him and I think she's aware that she often is because it's just his nature.

[madam magpie]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Also I think she understood that it meant something that Philip told her about it after he learned about it. He was basically making it something between the two of them, bringing her into it. So even though this is "his" son, it's something he's making about him and Irina, like it's their private secret. (It had been before that, though to be fair Philip was probably not yet sure whether he was going to accept it as reality until Gabriel put it on the table.) I'm sure she would prefer he not have any kids besides the two he has with her (she did refer to Irina as "the woman who had your son" in their fight recently so she does seem to resent that) but she clearly made the decision to be make this kid part of their family. I think that at least partly is about wanting to share it with him and be a support to him about it. She doesn't like being shut out of things about him and I think she's aware that she often is because it's just his nature.

Interesting read. On some level, I agree with that: I don't think Elizabeth likes to be shut out of Philip's life either. She wants to know everything, but I think some of that has to do with her needing to feel in control. If she doesn't have all the information, she's at a disadvantage. But I also think she wants to have pieces of Philip that belong to them alone. That's why she was so upset about him letting Martha see his real self, and why she seemed thrown about Martha and the foster kids. But with the son, she mostly seems sad and wistful about it. I don't think she so much resents the son, actually, though I'm sure you're right that she'd prefer Philip's only children were theirs. I'm not even sure she especially resents Irina. I think she yelled that at Philip because of how betrayed she felt about Philip looking right at her and lying. That's what she resents. He used spy skills on her, and she bought it, which shakes her. First of all, she should be able to read him better than that. But more importantly, she doesn't want him to do that because then it isn't real with them, and she very much wants it to be real. When it comes to emotions and trust, she's all in or all out; I don't think she can do halfway. So now that she does love him so deeply, she struggles when she falls into insecurity about what's real and what's not with them. That's when we've seen her at her most raw and vulnerable. When she kisses him after that conversation about how she'd understand if he wanted to leave with Martha, that's her using physical intimacy to affirm the realness of their relationship. She doesn't say, "I love you too" because she can't. She's not able to express how she feels with words, but she can do it with action. She relinquishes what he knows she wants (for him to come home to THEIR family), tells him to stay, to do what's best for the job, and then she kisses him. That's Elizabeth showing Philip that she loves him.

Edited May 28, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, madam magpie said:

But with the son, she mostly seems sad and wistful about it. I don't think she so much resents the son, actually, though I'm sure you're right that she'd prefer Philip's only children were theirs. I'm not even sure she especially resents Irina. I think she yelled that at Philip because of how betrayed she felt about Philip looking right at her and lying. That's what she resents.

Yes, I agree. I haven't seen her ever seeming really immature or irrational about Irina, it was the lying she didn't like. At most I think the fact that Irina was somebody he chose for himself maybe added to her anxiety, the same way that the fact that he didn't choose her for himself probably added to the anxiety she felt about Martha. But it struck me that she brought up the son in that conversation, and I thought it was just a little way of her reminding him that he had a person in his life, too, that couldn't be completely shared with her. She doesn't seem to think he's in love with Irina or anything, so I think the son was the thing she came up with to show how important she was to him just as the mother of that son. It made his lying about Irina even more hurtful.

But back when he told her about Irina he did exactly the opposite of what he'd done back then. He brought her that information before he even had to--at the time it seemed to me like Gabriel was partly giving that information to Philip to isolate the two of them a bit and I was sure he was very surprised when he realized Philip had gone right home and shared it with Elizabeth. That showed him putting a lot of trust in her and I think she understood it as such especially since it was during a time when they were fighting.

He was never able to do that with Martha, which I think always made her feel very anxious. Though I think that was mostly a case of the two of them being on very different pages. If Philip had felt about Martha the way Elizabeth thought he felt I think he would have behaved differently and tried to be honest about it. But since to him it wasn't any sort of competition between them he read her pressing differently.

Also I think the fact that when it comes down to it the only kids Philip really has are hers, and the fact that they've raised them together so closely, she really can't help but react to the news of his son somewhat the way he does. She knows him as a parent, knows herself as a parent. She's not going to react to this kid like a jealous girlfriend.

[madam magpie]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I agree. I haven't seen her ever seeming really immature or irrational about Irina, it was the lying she didn't like. At most I think the fact that Irina was somebody he chose for himself maybe added to her anxiety, the same way that the fact that he didn't choose her for himself probably added to the anxiety she felt about Martha. But it struck me that she brought up the son in that conversation, and I thought it was just a little way of her reminding him that he had a person in his life, too, that couldn't be completely shared with her. She doesn't seem to think he's in love with Irina or anything, so I think the son was the thing she came up with to show how important she was to him just as the mother of that son. It made his lying about Irina even more hurtful.

But back when he told her about Irina he did exactly the opposite of what he'd done back then. He brought her that information before he even had to--at the time it seemed to me like Gabriel was partly giving that information to Philip to isolate the two of them a bit and I was sure he was very surprised when he realized Philip had gone right home and shared it with Elizabeth. That showed him putting a lot of trust in her and I think she understood it as such especially since it was during a time when they were fighting.

He was never able to do that with Martha, which I think always made her feel very anxious. Though I think that was mostly a case of the two of them being on very different pages. If Philip had felt about Martha the way Elizabeth thought he felt I think he would have behaved differently and tried to be honest about it. But since to him it wasn't any sort of competition between them he read her pressing differently.

Also I think the fact that when it comes down to it the only kids Philip really has are hers, and the fact that they've raised them together so closely, she really can't help but react to the news of his son somewhat the way he does. She knows him as a parent, knows herself as a parent. She's not going to react to this kid like a jealous girlfriend.

Agreed, re: the kids, but I think she may have reacted differently under previous circumstances, before her relationship with Philip changed. Granted, he may just never have told her about the son then, but if he had, I'm not sure her reaction would have been the loving acceptance we've seen. I think she'd have been cold and detached. At this point, though, if the son turned up on their doorstep, I'd expect Elizabeth to welcome him and embrace him as part of their family.

The handlers have definitely tried to detach them from each other, now that they see how the relationship has changed. Claudia did that with telling Elizabeth about Philip and Irina too. From the KGB's perspective, they'd be less reliable if they have such loyalty to each other. The govt wants them working together as agents of the state; they won't put the state first if they've really fallen in love, though. Their first loyalty will be to each other and their kids. That's already happened, in fact, and I've started to wonder if what will eventually turn Elizabeth is that the KGB tries to split them up. At this point, I don't think she'd sacrifice Philip and the kids for the "greater good," though I'm not sure if she knows that yet.

I agree with your take on the thing with Martha. It got convoluted because they had such different reads of the situation and because they (Elizabeth especially) have a really hard time telling each other what they want. They make a lot of assumptions.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, madam magpie said:

Agreed, re: the kids, but I think she may have reacted differently under previous circumstances, before her relationship with Philip changed. Granted, he may just never have told her about the son then, but if he had, I'm not sure her reaction would have been the loving acceptance we've seen. I think she'd have been cold and detached. At this point, though, if the son turned up on their doorstep, I'd expect Elizabeth to welcome him and embrace him as part of their family.

Oh absolutely. I definitely meant for all of this to be in the context of their relationship now. I can't imagine her acting this way before. Really, back then she just would have felt that was his thing that had as little to do with her as possible. Her actually considering this person part of her too is I think connected to her loving Philip. It's not just a responsibility that comes with being his partner or wife legally. It's totally personal.

[scartact]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

The handlers have definitely tried to detach them from each other, now that they see how the relationship has changed. Claudia did that with telling Elizabeth about Philip and Irina too. From the KGB's perspective, they'd be less reliable if they have such loyalty to each other. The govt wants them working together as agents of the state; they won't put the state first if they've really fallen in love, though. Their first loyalty will be to each other and their kids. That's already happened, in fact, and I've started to wonder if what will eventually turn Elizabeth is that the KGB tries to split them up. At this point, I don't think she'd sacrifice Philip and the kids for the "greater good," though I'm not sure if she knows that yet.

Honestly, I'm really itching for a moment where this most tangibly comes to a head and Elizabeth has to make a choice between Philip and the KGB in some way. I don't know either if Elizabeth realizes how much she would give up for Philip and her family, but I also wondered too earlier this season if there would ever be a point where Philip and Elizabeth would somehow get split up from one another and to me that seems almost like the absolute worst case scenario for them.

[madam magpie]

18 minutes ago, scartact said:

Honestly, I'm really itching for a moment where this most tangibly comes to a head and Elizabeth has to make a choice between Philip and the KGB in some way. I don't know either if Elizabeth realizes how much she would give up for Philip and her family, but I also wondered too earlier this season if there would ever be a point where Philip and Elizabeth would somehow get split up from one another and to me that seems almost like the absolute worst case scenario for them.

Yeah, I don't think either would make it alone or with another partner. It's the idealized commitment in marriage, though set in an extraordinary circumstance. 

[sistermagpie]

I am willing to give this show a lot of rope.  It hasn't disappointed me yet.  There were a few slow stories.  Nina in Russia never took off....but the ending!  Wow!.  So I am willing to wait and see on the Mischa story and let the writers fill in the missing details as they go.   We don't need to know everything right now.  Maybe we will find out more about Irina as we go or maybe she will stay a vague reminder of who Philip was once.

One of the things I always found so frustrating about Irina is how she totally didn't say anything about who Philip once was because in their flashback he couldn't have been more generic and neither could she. It was a standard "Young man going away for a while promising to come back for his girl" scene. In fact, one would probably never guess seeing just that scene that Irina even has career prospects herself. Even now her father can't give the kid any insight into him except to say "he was a boy..." so it seems almost like the point was that he was unformed at the time. Even their meeting is so generic romcom you don't need to see any more than her sitting down near him at the train station and shyly asking if there's room on the bench. I remember re-watching those scenes once and thinking they were actually far more about Irina than Philip. He could be Clark, playing the role of boyfriend and later revising that role as "old flame." (In the NYC scene I think he explicitly is doing that.) This despite the fact that everyone on the show seems to agree that Philip would have been in sex training while he was dating her.

Maybe that's supposed to reflect his whole "but at that age you don't know who you are" but he still would have had a personality like anybody else. In fact, a lot of what we see or hear of him in the past is him being much like he is now--staunchly loyal to a girl, lashing out at threats, plotting ambushes, watching out for tails etc.  Irina even shows up 20 years later with apparently some hope that he'll want to run away with her, the girl who dumped him for some other guy (as far as he knew) when they were still teenagers and he ought to have gotten over years ago, before he had two children. I don't think you can take a job that's this extreme and suggest that only Elizabeth has a story for how she embraced it while guys like William and Philip just thought it sounded neat to see the world.

Just think of the contrast to Elizabeth/Gregory who are so clearly written as not only fitting each other, but fitting each other at a specific time in Elizabeth's life. She wasn't just "a girl" when she was with Gregory, she was a very specific person, just as she's always been. Her whole backstory is carefully doled out to explain her pov and how she is who she is.

Of course Philip's whole character has him retreating into the shadows and focusing on other people and defining himself by what those people need him to be. Only Elizabeth seems to really naturally push him to be more of himself. But that again just makes me want to rather see him learning to be that way and this relationship was not it.

[qtpye]

I love reading all these comments, but I think it was simply, he liked her the minute he saw her.  It probably was nothing more then lust, but I remember the actors did a great job of conveying their emotions perfectly at the moment they first meet.

His eyes light up and he is interested in her.  Phillip wants to know more about her and is happy that this is going to be his partner.  She wearily looks up at him and just categorizes that he is okay, no excitement, just another thing she must endure for the motherland.

Maybe he just was not her type or perhaps she was still traumatized by the rape.  There really is no rhyme or reason to attraction.  She was just not into him and he was into her.

This seemed not to change after many years of marriage.  He liked her as his wife, loved the family, liked the American lifestyle a little too much, and was patient with her coldness.

She did not take to being an American as easily, loved her family but maybe was not always the greatest communicator with children she did not understand, and was totally devoted to the motherland and the cause.  She was distrustful about the way he put their family ahead of the agenda.  Elizabeth did not look at Phillip as a companion and that is why she had the affair.

I guess think about being set up on a blind date with a person who rightly or wrongly, does nothing for you emotionally or physically and then being told you have pretend being married to that person.  They do not offend you, but you are just not into them.  As time goes by, you realize they do not have the same viewpoint as you do on many things and perhaps you even start resenting them a little bit.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Maybe he just was not her type or perhaps she was still traumatized by the rape.  There really is no rhyme or reason to attraction.  She was just not into him and he was into her.

But I think you lose something if it's got no rhyme or reason like everyday attraction.

I mean, I don’t think there’s any doubt that Elizabeth’s trauma after the rape is central to what she’s feeling with Philip when she first meets him. Sure on the surface it’s just a case of a slightly goofy guy learning he’s going to work with a gorgeous young woman and being pretty happy about that, and a young woman who has no interest in the goofy guy. But even at that point, from Elizabeth’s side, we know there’s a ton more going on. She’s got tons of issues with consent, having been raped and now being forced into marriage and family she doesn’t want. I think at that point she’d be literally incapable of judging a guy based on whether he did it for her physically or was charming. She’s got to be terrified of the guy no matter what package he comes in.

Yet Gabriel claims she had already turned down one guy before accepting Philip. Which could just be Elizabeth rejecting the first guy on principle to feel like she had a choice before accepting the inevitable. But if she did actually consider rejecting Philip too, then he’s not just somebody she’s not into. She actually chose pretty wisely, actually, if she chose him because this is a guy who’ll respect all of her issues with consent. This is actually the first guy she chooses to sleep with when she decides, in her own time, to have a kid. And she could have picked up on that in the first meeting, since even then Philip was probably pretty good at reading people and giving them what they wanted. He gets right away that she’s not pleased with him.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Elizabeth did not look at Phillip as a companion and that is why she had the affair.

Yeah, but I think that’s more complicated too than just saying Elizabeth didn’t think of him as a real husband so she had an affair for that. Her relationship with Gregory gave her all the control and he was everything she was “supposed” to want—he was committed to the cause, bragged about being ready to sacrifice family (like her mother did), only saw her when Elizabeth arranged it, didn’t live with her day to day.

Meanwhile, for all Elizabeth’s saying that Philip isn’t trustworthy and weak and not someone she has any connection to beyond the job, this is the guy she’s surely getting a lot of daily support from. They’re trusting each other in the field, raising children together. And in the end, it’s actually some of the stuff Elizabeth claimed was terrible about Philip (putting the family before the cause) that pushes her over the edge into loving him.

So yeah, on the surface what you’re saying is true. Elizabeth doesn’t want to be married to this guy but she’s stuck with him (or somebody who’s potentially worse). She’s already got reason to resent him for that. That would make her look for other reasons to dislike him. Then he doesn’t conform to her very rigid ideas for correct behavior. But I think it’s just as important that he always was somebody she could count on and was good for her even from the beginning, she just didn’t want to admit it. She had reason to want to dislike him even when she didn't.

And on Philip’s side, while we don’t have as much insight into him, I think he, too, saw things he could actually love. He didn’t just imprint on her because she was beautiful. If Elizabeth truly was the person Gregory claimed she and Gregory were, someone who was willing to sacrifice her family, I don’t think Philip would love her so much. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But I think you lose something if it's got no rhyme or reason like everyday attraction.

I mean, I don’t think there’s any doubt that Elizabeth’s trauma after the rape is central to what she’s feeling with Philip when she first meets him. Sure on the surface it’s just a case of a slightly goofy guy learning he’s going to work with a gorgeous young woman and being pretty happy about that, and a young woman who has no interest in the goofy guy. But even at that point, from Elizabeth’s side, we know there’s a ton more going on. She’s got tons of issues with consent, having been raped and now being forced into marriage and family she doesn’t want. I think at that point she’d be literally incapable of judging a guy based on whether he did it for her physically or was charming. She’s got to be terrified of the guy no matter what package he comes in.

Yet Gabriel claims she had already turned down one guy before accepting Philip. Which could just be Elizabeth rejecting the first guy on principle to feel like she had a choice before accepting the inevitable. But if she did actually consider rejecting Philip too, then he’s not just somebody she’s not into. She actually chose pretty wisely, actually, if she chose him because this is a guy who’ll respect all of her issues with consent. This is actually the first guy she chooses to sleep with when she decides, in her own time, to have a kid. And she could have picked up on that in the first meeting, since even then Philip was probably pretty good at reading people and giving them what they wanted. He gets right away that she’s not pleased with him.

Yeah, but I think that’s more complicated too than just saying Elizabeth didn’t think of him as a real husband so she had an affair for that. Her relationship with Gregory gave her all the control and he was everything she was “supposed” to want—he was committed to the cause, bragged about being ready to sacrifice family (like her mother did), only saw her when Elizabeth arranged it, didn’t live with her day to day.

Meanwhile, for all Elizabeth’s saying that Philip isn’t trustworthy and weak and not someone she has any connection to beyond the job, this is the guy she’s surely getting a lot of daily support from. They’re trusting each other in the field, raising children together. And in the end, it’s actually some of the stuff Elizabeth claimed was terrible about Philip (putting the family before the cause) that pushes her over the edge into loving him.

So yeah, on the surface what you’re saying is true. Elizabeth doesn’t want to be married to this guy but she’s stuck with him (or somebody who’s potentially worse). She’s already got reason to resent him for that. That would make her look for other reasons to dislike him. Then he doesn’t conform to her very rigid ideas for correct behavior. But I think it’s just as important that he always was somebody she could count on and was good for her even from the beginning, she just didn’t want to admit it. She had reason to want to dislike him even when she didn't.

And on Philip’s side, while we don’t have as much insight into him, I think he, too, saw things he could actually love. He didn’t just imprint on her because she was beautiful. If Elizabeth truly was the person Gregory claimed she and Gregory were, someone who was willing to sacrifice her family, I don’t think Philip would love her so much. 

I totally agree with you.  Their strange dynamic is much more then, she was a pretty young girl and he walked in and mentally said "jackpot". 

She was just not ready at this point for commitment and it would not have mattered if the was the most handsomest and kindest man in the world.  She was a woman who had long been oppressed by a male patriarchy and he was an extension of that to her.  Some part of her resented not being in control of her destiny and rightly or wrongly, she brought that baggage into the relationship.

The man she chose was an African American male, who understood how it was like to be oppressed by things out of your control, like race and gender.

Of course Phillip was also oppressed.  However, he was happy with her and ready for the partnership.  Phillip did not have the resentment, but he also did not have her loyalty to the cause.  She had the resentment, but was fiercely protective of the prime objective.

[sistermagpie]

Philip and Elizabeth's marriage is inscrutable. Their separation in season one made little sense considering they faked it up until a few months before they separated, they were still partners in a travel agency, still spy partners, and would never be allowed to pursue legit romantic interests. 

I think they explained it pretty well. They'd faked it, but now it was real and Elizabeth wanted to punish Philip by going back to faking it. So he called her bluff and pointed out that in 1981 they would no longer stand out if they were divorced. So she had to go for that to prove that she didn't care about him at all, that she really did want to make everything about the mission. They could still be spy partners and business partners, but Elizabeth felt she had to make a statement about not being a couple. Which is also why Philip wouldn't come back until she made the opposite statement about being a couple. 

No reason they couldn't pursue romances for fun in that case, following the same rules they'd have as a married couple. That is, don't tell anybody who they really are unless it's another person in the know already like Gregory.  Of course they'd know the romance would never lead to, like, living together with somebody else. But neither of them was saying they wanted to marry other people, ever.

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they explained it pretty well. They'd faked it, but now it was real and Elizabeth wanted to punish Philip by going back to faking it. So he called her bluff and pointed out that in 1981 they would no longer stand out if they were divorced. So she had to go for that to prove that she didn't care about him at all, that she really did want to make everything about the mission. They could still be spy partners and business partners, but Elizabeth felt she had to make a statement about not being a couple. Which is also why Philip wouldn't come back until she made the opposite statement about being a couple. 

No reason they couldn't pursue romances for fun in that case, following the same rules they'd have as a married couple. That is, don't tell anybody who they really are unless it's another person in the know already like Gregory.  Of course they'd know the romance would never lead to, like, living together with somebody else. But neither of them was saying they wanted to marry other people, ever.

But their separation/dissolution of a relationship they were okay with faking for over fifteen years hurt the people they love the most, their kids, the worst. They could've slept in separate rooms (that house must have lots of hidden rooms), pretended to be married, and not upset the children. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

But their separation/dissolution of a relationship they were okay with faking for over fifteen years hurt the people they love the most, their kids, the worst. They could've slept in separate rooms (that house must have lots of hidden rooms), pretended to be married, and not upset the children. 

Yes, but Elizabeth had to call for a separation because she had to put her money where her mouth was. She said that Philip was a distraction from the job, but she wanted to keep him around so she could rely on him as always. When he called her bluff and refused to let her keep him around as a duty she had to agree to it because to her that was the way a person totally committed to the cause would act. I mean, she'd never wanted to be married, and now was her chance to have what she wanted. 

She didn't want to upset the children, but then neither do most couples who separate. This was 100% about their relationship and making it real or not. They separated the way all couples separate, not as two spies worried about their cover. They had to get rid of the idea that being together was a job to really choose to be together imo.

[Erin9]

The more I think about it, Lotus was a fantastic Philizabeth episode. All of it was wonderful and really demonstrated how far they've come in their relationship.

Considering how heavy things got, it's nice we got the comedic reactions to Henry being good at math. It was cute watching them react to a positive, for once, surprise.

Elizabeth calling Philip JUST to tell him she missed him was huge. Sure, she's done it once before, after the fight over her informing on Philip/when she knew he was on the op with Irina. It was big then, but this is big now for a different reason. She just missed him. There was no argument; she's not jealous. She's not trying to fix something. She just wanted to hear his voice and tell him she missed him. Philip was practically stunned speechless. He was fully expecting her call to be an emergency. But, when she opened up and made herself vulnerable to him, he opened up to her about his memories that he doesn't understand. And, she was so compassionate and patient with him, trying to help him understand what they were about. It was a lovely emotional scene between them. I was rather shocked by it myself. I'm still waiting for her to tell him she loves him though. This show can't end without it imo. 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I loved how when Elizabeth got home you could tell she was thinking about telling him that they'd killed an innocent man based on bad intel. But as soon as she saw Philip, her face lit up. I don't know that I remember seeing her so visibly light up like that. And, for his part, he tossed the laundry basket aside to hug her. Good stuff. That long hug was great too. You'd think they'd been separated for weeks. 

Finally, the last scene at the house was powerful. Elizabeth essentially ran after him to try and help him deal with the news. Then, she tried to take some of the burden off him. Yet, Philip insisted on trudging forward as the team they are. I realize his final words are open for interpretation, but Philip saying "It's us" to Elizabeth tells me that he's sticking with her every step of the way... whichever way that is. Even though he's also clarifying he doesn't ever want something like that to happen again and that he's tired of this. That fits Philip's loyalty streak though; he's very loyal and protective of those he loves. 

This is a little off the subject, but that final conversation reminded me of Philip's "joke" about being fired by the Centre, Elizabeth responding that it wasn't funny, and him seriously acknowledging the truth in that. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Finally, the last scene at the house was powerful. Elizabeth essentially ran after him to try and help him deal with the news. Then, she tried to take some of the burden off him. Yet, Philip insisted on trudging forward as the team they are. I realize his final words are open for interpretation, but Philip saying "It's us" to Elizabeth tells me that he's sticking with her every step of the way... whichever way that is. Even though he's also clarifying he doesn't ever want something like that to happen again and that he's tired of this. That fits Philip's loyalty streak though; he's very loyal and protective of those he loves. 

And the more I think about it, it's great the way that's basically having to sink it with Elizabeth. This is the way it's been going for her, that more and more she has to face her personal responsibility. Like I always remember the scene in the first ep of S2 after they go to the amusement park and the Connors were killed. Philip is kicking himself for using Henry when doing the drop pass and Elizabeth says "You had no choice" and he says "Yes, I did." That just struck me as so huge because it was when Philip started to think about all this as a series of personal choices rather than just letting the mission dictate what he did. That, of course, has led to him getting crushed under the weight of those choices.

Elizabeth is still faithful to the cause so it doesn't hit her the same way. But it is starting to hit her. Young-Hee was one of the first times she felt the personal responsibility of hurting someone. Part of that was because she allowed herself to have a real relationship with her. But even that probably wouldn't have happened if she hadn't loosened up via her relationship with Philip and her family. All the stuff with Paige and Philip I think has started to show her that she can't just think of it as the Cause or herself. She's starting to get that the choices she makes are also choices she's making for them because they love her.

It's really a great move of the show to figure out how to re-frame it for her. She herself had a mother who sacrificed her for the cause without blinking in her own words. She's always told herself that she aspired to be like that--that way she can see what was done to her as the only way a good mother/good person could be. Her mother, imo, seemed to tell her that since her father had failed the cause he wasn't worthy of mourning. But now that she's got her own daughter and a husband that puts her (Elizabeth) above everything I think she's starting to feel what she couldn't let herself feel before--how much she wants to be cared about. And with that opening up she can't escape the fact that she's now in her mother's place choosing pain for people who love her because she values the Cause more--not because she has no choice. 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's really a great move of the show to figure out how to re-frame it for her. She herself had a mother who sacrificed her for the cause without blinking in her own words. She's always told herself that she aspired to be like that--that way she can see what was done to her as the only way a good mother/good person could be. Her mother, imo, seemed to tell her that since her father had failed the cause he wasn't worthy of mourning. But now that she's got her own daughter and a husband that puts her (Elizabeth) above everything I think she's starting to feel what she couldn't let herself feel before--how much she wants to be cared about. And with that opening up she can't escape the fact that she's now in her mother's place choosing pain for people who love her because she values the Cause more--not because she has no choice. 

This is well said.  I have made comments in the Eilizabeth thread about how "putting the cause above all else" is a method for different types of patriarchies to control women.  You and the people that love you are not worthy of having your own needs and your only value is doing things for the greater good.  Women are the primary targets for this mind set, because they were considered to be more easily manipulated and eager to please.

I appreciated your comments about how this is what is ingrained into her and now she is just beginning to see herself as someone worthy of having her own life.  The cause is not some infallible greater good, but just another belief system that is starting to show its cracks.  I think E is still very loyal to the Soviet Union, but perhaps she is finally beginning to see that sacrificing everything for an ideology is a very rigid and limiting mindset. 

[crgirl412]

It is interesting to watch Elizabeth evolve.  She is much closer to having it be a true choice if it ever came down to Cause or Family.  I think it's clear that Philip would now choose family. 

[Erin9]

2 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

It is interesting to watch Elizabeth evolve.  She is much closer to having it be a true choice if it ever came down to Cause or Family.  I think it's clear that Philip would now choose family. 

I've felt all along that Philip would choose family. That's always been Philip's throughline- his love for Elizabeth and his children. (Appealing to his concern for the wellbeing of his people is another.) The question is would Elizabeth choose family over the cause? I think she's slowly getting there. I read an interesting comment that if/when Elizabeth tells Philip she loves him, the USSR has lost her. I think that may be accurate. I think she does love him, but saying it out loud, acknowledging it is a totally different thing. And maybe that's why we're having to wait so long for her to state the obvious. I wonder what it would take for her to say it. Those aren't words Philip has used often or lightly either, for that matter- they've been in stressful, emotionally charged sItuations. 

I also find it interesting that as much as Gabriel and Claudia worry about Philip- and the cracks are more obviously there- they should worry about Elizabeth too. Because she does love her children. And her husband. If, for instance, the centre hurt Philip in any way, I don't think she'd take it lightly. And if Elizabeth falls, Philip will go with her. No question. He sees them as in this together with their family. 

[crgirl412]

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I've felt all along that Philip would choose family. That's always been Philip's throughline- his love for Elizabeth and his children. (Appealing to his concern for the wellbeing of his people is another.) The question is would Elizabeth choose family over the cause? I think she's slowly getting there. I read an interesting comment that if/when Elizabeth tells Philip she loves him, the USSR has lost her. I think that may be accurate. I think she does love him, but saying it out loud, acknowledging it is a totally different thing. And maybe that's why we're having to wait so long for her to state the obvious. I wonder what it would take for her to say it. Those aren't words Philip has used often or lightly either, for that matter- they've been in stressful, emotionally charged sItuations. 

I also find it interesting that as much as Gabriel and Claudia worry about Philip- and the cracks are more obviously there- they should worry about Elizabeth too. Because she does love her children. And her husband. If, for instance, the centre hurt Philip in any way, I don't think she'd take it lightly. And if Elizabeth falls, Philip will go with her. No question. He sees them as in this together with their family. 

I think that you are probably right.  By the time we got to meet the Jennings he would've chosen Family and probably for many years if not from the moment he loved Elizabeth.  

[Umbelina]

This comes from something we were discussing in the Philip thread.

I've been thinking about it, and many people who watch like Philip so much more than Elizabeth, understandably, since most of us are Americans and Philip seems to like Americans.

But when I really think of it?  Elizabeth is doing something for a cause she really believes in, she's patriotic, and steadfast, a very good soldier in this "cold" war.

Why does Philip do it?  People keep saying "for his family" but I don't buy that at all.  He ignores Henry completely, and Paige is devastated because he's allowed her life to turn into total shit.  He COULD save her, but he doesn't. 

Why?  Because he believes in a cause?  Because he is patriotic and loyal to his country?  Because he's a good soldier? 

No.  He only does it because of Elizabeth.  She's the one he actually cares about, not his kids, not what is right or wrong.  When push comes to shove, he lets the kids go, abandons right and wrong, and chooses her. 

So when Elizabeth kills?  She kills like a soldier, a patriot.  When Philip kills?  He does it all for a woman. 

Which is really the more honorable?  Especially if you change KGB to CIA, or the USSR for the Soviet Union in this?

Edited April 8, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is doing something for a cause she really believes in, she's patriotic, and steadfast, a very good soldier in this "cold" war.

I think both of them are a mixture of impulses that include being a good soldier. I especially don't think, for instance, that Philip killed that bug guy because of Elizabeth. He believed in what he thought that mission was about. In fact, one could even argue that if her focus was so much on making the world better she ought to be asking the same questions as Philip does. If it's about being the most loyal, it doesn't matter.

But also, if Philip's instinctively choosing Elizabeth over everything as doing everything for a woman, isn't Elizabeth instinctively always choosing to prove she's the best? Handing Paige over to the people who have betrayed her doesn't bring peace to the world or bring food to Russia. It's more about Elizabeth's personal character being tested. It just makes her strong like her mother (and keeps Paige close to her without having to admit that she wants her close). It hides her doubts and perceived weaknesses.

If he can't face the idea of turning his back on Elizabeth maybe she can't face the idea of being seen as weak. When you really dig down both of them are, I think, most strongly motivated whatever hurt children they used to be. I mean, that's not the only thing motivating them, but I think it's the most basic.

[Umbelina]

Except he wouldn't even been at the bug place except for Elizabeth.  He'd have defected years ago.

Everything that's happened has happened for one reason. 

Philip's "love" for Elizabeth. 

Elizabeth doesn't do things out of love for Philip, she does it for the Soviet Union.  It doesn't matter what she has to sacrifice, her children, her life, whatever it takes for that.  For Philip though?  She won't even give up her day job.

If she were American and fighting for our flag, we would probably admire her the most.

Philip is just another "Martha" in this.  He doesn't believe in any of it, but he does it for the one he "loves."

Maybe I'm just not as romantic, or at least not in a way that justifies murder and ruining his own children's lives.  If he was doing it out of patriotism, however misguided?  I'd have more respect for him.  As it is?  He's pathetic.

If this were reversed and Liz was the guy, Philip the woman?  I'd feel the same way.  It's almost like an abuse situation in that way, when people question why wives who are beaten don't simply walk away, or when their children are beaten, WHY didn't they leave to protect them?  "I LOVED him!  He's a good person most of the time!"

No.

Philip's ignoring his own, and more importantly, his children's well being.  No wonder he's having nightmares!  It's wrong in every sense of the word to continue this, love or not. 

She's much less wrong in my eyes, at least she has a reasonable excuse, or as much as an excuse as any loyal patriot has for the things that happen in war.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Umbelina
when not we

[sistermagpie]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Except he wouldn't even been at the bug place except for Elizabeth.  He'd have defected years ago.

Yeah, but that doesn't change his feelings in that moment. Without Elizabeth he also wouldn't have had any kids to worry about and he might be doing his job with that same ease as he was doing in season 1.

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth doesn't do things out of love for Philip, she does it for the Soviet Union.  It doesn't matter what she has to sacrifice, her children, her life, whatever it takes for that.  For Philip though?  She won't even give up her day job.

I can see Elizabeth's motives as just as pathetic, though. She's still the child who wants to the most approval to the masters. Only she's actually an adult who has plenty of information to tell her that the Centre is not who they say they are. Yet she just doesn't question because then she'd be taking responsibility for her choices instead of just seeking the approval of her authority figures. She couldn't hide behind them to get what she wants personally.

Characters like that actually aren't usually admired in fiction when they're working for the US imo. I'm sure there are some examples where they are, but in general when I think of those kinds of characters they're objects of pity or scorn. Sometimes they're the villain to the more independent-thinker hero who questions authority. 

So to me I honestly don't see a big difference in the level of pathetic when it comes to what they cling to or the ways they justify it. Elizabeth doesn't even seem particularly more patriotic to me. I think they're both a mixture of some of the same impulses, just in different quantities. What they tell themselves they're doing it for (family, the USSR) I think in both cases covers up something more personal and they compromise accordingly. And maybe most importantly, neither of them is aware that they're doing this, because they're completely unself-aware people.

Edited April 9, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Again, I just don't buy that Philip is doing anything at all for his "family."  His family is a mess because of his decision to let Elizabeth make all the rules, and because he decides Elizabeth is the only thing that matters to him.

I'm not a fan of patriotism either, yours, mine, or theirs.  Nonetheless, many people are, and they support the flag of their country and follow the rules of their leaders, and are admired for that.  Support Our Troops! Elizabeth considers herself just another, more highly trained soldier in this war.   Gabe and Claudia are her commanding officers, and "Center" consists of the generals in her war.

Would I love it if every soldier in the world just laid down their weapons and said "War is bullshit, I'm not doing it anymore!"  Yes, I would.  That's not the world we live in though, and as far as I know, we can still legally shoot soldiers for desertion.  Soldiers follow orders, for a paycheck, for country, for whatever reasons they have, people get killed all the time, every single day in our world, for various bullshit wars that only really benefit arms manufacturers or rich people who want what someone else has.

Why is Philip doing it?  Why is Elizabeth?

One is doing it for reasons bigger than herself, ideology, patriotism, a belief this will make the world a better place, and she's loyal to that above all.

One is doing it for "love."

If "love" was such an honorable reason, Stan should have giving up those documents and saved Nina's life, gone ahead and been a traitor.  Would everyone had admired that?  I don't think so, yet somehow Philip is admired for going against every instinct he has of what is right for him, and for his kids, and probably society as a whole? 

Love of one person doesn't cut it for me as an excuse.  Patriotism and believing one is doing for the good of the world, even if they may be mistaken?  At least isn't selfish.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Love of one person doesn't cut it for me as an excuse.  Patriotism and believing one is doing for the good of the world, even if they may be mistaken?  At least isn't selfish.

I guess for me I just don't see their motivations as that different, with one being more selfish. They both just seem like people with one thing they can't face because it would mean being alone. For Philip not having Elizabeth is being alone. For Elizabeth it's being a traitor, because traitors are unworthy and rejected. Those things have been the same thing in her life probably since she was a baby.

They both started out with very little and sacrificed what little they did have at a very young age. They had formative experiences that are wildly different from the people around them and then lived a crazy life for 20 years. For them this crazy secret is normal, and their source of intimacy. I think that's always a huge thing to remember when it comes to the kids. Both Philip and Elizabeth, imo, see this shared secret as something like a sacred bond.

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth's sacred bond is to the KGB, so far anyway.

Philip's love life isn't the only thing in the world that's important, and he needs to wake up and realize that, starting with his ignored son and his nearly suicidal daughter.  They matter too, and frankly, so does he, and his own desire to stay in America, and live a peaceful life.  You have kids?  You needn't give up your life to them, but you have a responsibility to keep them safe, at least until they are adults.  That's a sacred bond as well.

I hear what you are saying, I'm just not as romantic I suppose, Philip is doing something he hates, something he knows/feels is wrong, something that makes him feel like shit all the time. 

If Elizabeth actually loved him, she wouldn't want that.  If she actually loved Paige, she would protect her from the kind of life she and Philip lead. 

I also agree their lives are complicated, and that they were warped from an early age.  Philip though?  Apparently got through that warping enough to know he wanted to defect, enough to know he wanted to keep his children out of this kind of fucked up life.  Now?  He's making a choice, and it isn't from his training...he got past that already, obviously.

 

Philip and Martha have a lot in common, they both do/did things they hate, things they know are wrong in their gut, for "love."  Philip is worse though, because he is sacrificing his own children as well.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

I don't see Philip's motivations as somehow worse than Elizabeth's. He's not a true believer. And, yes, Elizabeth is a big part of why he's still doing this. But I don't think he sees her as the only thing that matters. That's too simplistic imo. 

Philip is in a situation where there are no good choices left.....based on choices he made at 17. 

They're a family. The 4 of them. He takes that seriously. The family is not in a good place right now, but defection and /or running sure isn't magically going to fix anything for anyone.  For many reasons. For starters, Elizabeth won't agree as it stands. I don't think Philip sees his kids being motherless as a small price to pay for getting out of the KGB. And he won't leave his kids. 

Philip truly loves his home country and his people. That is a strong motivation for him to stay. We've seen Elizabeth and Gabriel use it on him over and over and over again. It's not all about her.  I don't think he's just dying to knock on Stan's door and give him info that could be used to hurt his people. It's no small thing. I've heard him talk about wanting to run away, but only under the highly stressed circumstances of the pilot has he ever suggested going to the FBI. Probably because he really doesn't want to for many reasons- like betraying his people. 

Plus, he then has to hope the KGB doesn't grab them first anyway- remember Anton-  or just shoot them for talking. Talking to the FBI is not exactly a safety guarantee by any stretch. And, while Philip likes aspects of America, I don't believe he really trusts the US government either. That much was made clear when he asked William if he trusted the americans. 

He knows good and well that running with the kids is likely to fail- much as he may like the idea in theory. He betrays no one overtly in that scenario anyway,. But, it is likely to fail and he know it. See: Irina. And it was just her running, much easier to escape notice. Not to mention that upends their lives- the kids friends, school, church, etc. They'd be thrilled. 

I thought the exchange between them when he joked to her about getting fired and both acknowledging that there is NOTHING funny about it is also Philip noting how serious it is if they wind up making enemies out of the centre. That will happen if they do anything other than what they're doing now. 

What Philip would really like imo is an option he doesn't have: to retire in the US with his family and live a normal life. One that doesn't include looking over his shoulder waiting to be caught and killed. 

I'm looking forward to seeing where this journey takes Philip. He really has no good choices imo. But it'll be fascinating to see how this wraps up for him, Elizabeth and the kids. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I hear what you are saying, I'm just not as romantic I suppose, Philip is doing something he hates, something he knows/feels is wrong, something that makes him feel like shit all the time. 

 

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If Elizabeth actually loved him, she wouldn't want that.  If she actually loved Paige, she would protect her from the kind of life she and Philip lead. 

For for me it isn't about romance, exactly. It's a more general love--he might have formed a non-romantic bond with the right person too. I also Elizabeth does love Philip and Paige. But both of them associate love--and life--with sacrifice. Not just their own, but other peoples'. Because this is what life is about for them.  They don't think (or maybe won't admit they think in Elizabeth's case) they weren't loved because of all that was demanded of them. They're not even asking as much from their kids as they gave/give. But for Elizabeth expecting your kid to devote themselves to the Cause is totally reasonable, just as for Philip asking a kid to protect the family is, even if he doesn't enjoy her suffering for it.

 

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip truly loves his home country and his people. That is a strong motivation for him to stay. We've seen Elizabeth and Gabriel use it on him over and over and over again. It's not all about her.  I don't think he's just dying to knock on Stan's door and give him info that could be used to hurt his people. It's no small thing. I've heard him talk about wanting to run away, but only under the highly stressed circumstances of the pilot has he ever suggested going to the FBI. Probably because he really doesn't want to for many reasons- like betraying his people. 

Agreed--and I think he sees Elizabeth being ready to go home (and the kids grown up with their own lives) as a real possibility that's worth holding out for. It's similar to the way he takes on more and more dangerous things--he thinks he can just keep that up for long enough to be safe, plus the more he takes on the more invested he is in succeeding. He doesn't actually hate Elizabeth's devotion to the cause.

I was listening to the commentary on an old ep of another show and something similar was said by the showrunner, that the character being caught in a lie had a point when they were saying they didn't set out to hurt people, but they made one choice that led to a series of choices that got them in deeper and deeper. I think Philip and Elizabeth both started out in denial about how things would work with the kids and since the start of the show they've made a series of choices that have gotten them in deeper. And so has Paige, actually.

[qtpye]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:59 PM, Umbelina said:

Except he wouldn't even been at the bug place except for Elizabeth.  He'd have defected years ago.

Everything that's happened has happened for one reason. 

Philip's "love" for Elizabeth. 

Elizabeth doesn't do things out of love for Philip, she does it for the Soviet Union.  It doesn't matter what she has to sacrifice, her children, her life, whatever it takes for that.  For Philip though?  She won't even give up her day job.

If she were American and fighting for our flag, we would probably admire her the most.

Philip is just another "Martha" in this.  He doesn't believe in any of it, but he does it for the one he "loves."

Maybe I'm just not as romantic, or at least not in a way that justifies murder and ruining his own children's lives.  If he was doing it out of patriotism, however misguided?  I'd have more respect for him.  As it is?  He's pathetic.

If this were reversed and Liz was the guy, Philip the woman?  I'd feel the same way.  It's almost like an abuse situation in that way, when people question why wives who are beaten don't simply walk away, or when their children are beaten, WHY didn't they leave to protect them?  "I LOVED him!  He's a good person most of the time!"

No.

Philip's ignoring his own, and more importantly, his children's well being.  No wonder he's having nightmares!  It's wrong in every sense of the word to continue this, love or not. 

She's much less wrong in my eyes, at least she has a reasonable excuse, or as much as an excuse as any loyal patriot has for the things that happen in war.

 

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:34 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, but that doesn't change his feelings in that moment. Without Elizabeth he also wouldn't have had any kids to worry about and he might be doing his job with that same ease as he was doing in season 1.

I can see Elizabeth's motives as just as pathetic, though. She's still the child who wants to the most approval to the masters. Only she's actually an adult who has plenty of information to tell her that the Centre is not who they say they are. Yet she just doesn't question because then she'd be taking responsibility for her choices instead of just seeking the approval of her authority figures. She couldn't hide behind them to get what she wants personally.

Characters like that actually aren't usually admired in fiction when they're working for the US imo. I'm sure there are some examples where they are, but in general when I think of those kinds of characters they're objects of pity or scorn. Sometimes they're the villain to the more independent-thinker hero who questions authority. 

So to me I honestly don't see a big difference in the level of pathetic when it comes to what they cling to or the ways they justify it. Elizabeth doesn't even seem particularly more patriotic to me. I think they're both a mixture of some of the same impulses, just in different quantities. What they tell themselves they're doing it for (family, the USSR) I think in both cases covers up something more personal and they compromise accordingly. And maybe most importantly, neither of them is aware that they're doing this, because they're completely unself-aware people.

 

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 1:17 AM, Erin9 said:

I don't see Philip's motivations as somehow worse than Elizabeth's. He's not a true believer. And, yes, Elizabeth is a big part of why he's still doing this. But I don't think he sees her as the only thing that matters. That's too simplistic imo. 

Philip is in a situation where there are no good choices left.....based on choices he made at 17. 

They're a family. The 4 of them. He takes that seriously. The family is not in a good place right now, but defection and /or running sure isn't magically going to fix anything for anyone.  For many reasons. For starters, Elizabeth won't agree as it stands. I don't think Philip sees his kids being motherless as a small price to pay for getting out of the KGB. And he won't leave his kids. 

Philip truly loves his home country and his people. That is a strong motivation for him to stay. We've seen Elizabeth and Gabriel use it on him over and over and over again. It's not all about her.  I don't think he's just dying to knock on Stan's door and give him info that could be used to hurt his people. It's no small thing. I've heard him talk about wanting to run away, but only under the highly stressed circumstances of the pilot has he ever suggested going to the FBI. Probably because he really doesn't want to for many reasons- like betraying his people. 

Plus, he then has to hope the KGB doesn't grab them first anyway- remember Anton-  or just shoot them for talking. Talking to the FBI is not exactly a safety guarantee by any stretch. And, while Philip likes aspects of America, I don't believe he really trusts the US government either. That much was made clear when he asked William if he trusted the americans. 

He knows good and well that running with the kids is likely to fail- much as he may like the idea in theory. He betrays no one overtly in that scenario anyway,. But, it is likely to fail and he know it. See: Irina. And it was just her running, much easier to escape notice. Not to mention that upends their lives- the kids friends, school, church, etc. They'd be thrilled. 

I thought the exchange between them when he joked to her about getting fired and both acknowledging that there is NOTHING funny about it is also Philip noting how serious it is if they wind up making enemies out of the centre. That will happen if they do anything other than what they're doing now. 

What Philip would really like imo is an option he doesn't have: to retire in the US with his family and live a normal life. One that doesn't include looking over his shoulder waiting to be caught and killed. 

I'm looking forward to seeing where this journey takes Philip. He really has no good choices imo. But it'll be fascinating to see how this wraps up for him, Elizabeth and the kids. 

All of you make excellent points that I have considered myself.  On the Elizabeth thread I have talked about how patriarchal institutions thought women could be more easily manipulated then men and often used guilt and duty to inspire blind devotion.  I have also thought that Phillip is unhappy and only the all consuming love of this woman keeps him going on with this lifestyle.  This makes E the power player in the relationship and people always resent the power player.  I think it is a good point that Phillip motivations are much more complex then just romantic love.  However, the main defining trait of the Phillip character is his love of E and how he does not like or trust some of the things the Centre forces him to do.  It has been mentioned that the show has given us very little about his background compared to E.  We know that he was very gifted from a young age, he was forced to kill someone as a child, his father dies when he was very young, and probably grew up in extreme poverty.  It seems like he had very few choices in his life, particularly for being so gifted and talented, and this was, what he thought was the best option.  That has died a long time ago.  Yes, defecting would bring its own problems, but does he really think when its all done, he and his family are going to retire to a nice life in Russia, like E does?  Heck, they probably know too much and the Centre might just kill them, then leave them alive...always a risk in the spy game.  He does not have many good choices, but the choice to continue with this life style is not smart and he is a smart guy.  That is when "blinded by the only women who has struck him with love since first sight" comes into play.  It's silly, but really is the only thing why has this guy not defected, particularly after realizing that child murdered his family after the Centre botched contacted him.  It is something that is central to the character, as E's blind loyalty and patriotism is central to understanding her.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Yes, defecting would bring its own problems, but does he really think when its all done, he and his family are going to retire to a nice life in Russia, like E does?

Doesn't he? He seemed to be longing for that last season. It's Elizabeth that resisted even that. He's got no reason to think the Centre would murder them rather than let them retire, even if he's not letting himself dwell on how hard it would be. (He does the same with Witness Protection.)

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This makes E the power player in the relationship and people always resent the power player.  I think it is a good point that Phillip motivations are much more complex then just romantic love.  However, the main defining trait of the Phillip character is his love of E and how he does not like or trust some of the things the Centre forces him to do. 

It's funny...this reminds me of the little I read about that show Allegiance. From what I read, the husband started spying for the Russians because his wife was a Russian spy. I remember thinking well, I already have no interest in that guy because somebody betraying their country because they're in love just seemed ridiculous. I mean, Martha did that, but her situation seemed more complicated. (The guy in that show may have also been more complicated, but I didn't know him.) Elizabeth might have been a big reason Gregory stayed loyal too. That is, without Elizabeth he may have developed into a very different man whose ideals took a very different shape. He wouldn't have been working for the USSR (she recruited him). He might have even have lost interest in working for them by the time we met him without his relationship with Elizabeth. He says he's as loyal as ever, but by that's also the basis for his relationship with Elizabeth. So it's always complicated.

In Philip's case I think it's also important to remember that while Elizabeth is obviously his reason for staying, it wasn't his reason for joining. People sometimes talk about the situation was if any character, if they stopped fighting it, would revert to being American, but Philip's inertia goes the other way. This is who he was born, who he was raised to be, who he had been his whole life. Which is why his ideal dream is to continue his life, just without having these jobs to do. Even the secret aspect of it all would continue in Witness Protection. 

[qtpye]

35 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Doesn't he? He seemed to be longing for that last season. It's Elizabeth that resisted even that. He's got no reason to think the Centre would murder them rather than let them retire, even if he's not letting himself dwell on how hard it would be. (He does the same with Witness Protection.)

I think his faith in the Centre is getting shaky again, because of the wheat fiasco.  Also, look what the Centre is doing with Misha.  I do not know if P thinks the KGB will kill them, but he is smart enough to know that they do not care what is best for him and his family.  Elizabeth knows this too, but she is always willing to sacrifice for the greater good.  Phillip is beginning to suspect "the greater good" is a corrupted and inefficient power structure.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think his faith in the Centre is getting shaky again, because of the wheat fiasco.  Also, look what the Centre is doing with Misha.  I do not know if P thinks the KGB will kill them, but he is smart enough to know that they do not care what is best for him and his family.

Oh, I think he definitely doesn't think they care about them that much. Even back in S1 Philip wasn't so bothered by the Centre's kidnapping thing because he doesn't expect them to not do that to find out who's a traitor. Elizabeth was offended by it as a breach of trust but Philip doesn't (he's betrayed by Elizabeth, not the Centre). 

But I don't think he has any reason to think they wouldn't allow him and his family to live on in Russia as retired Illegals. And I think he's right in that. 

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

But I don't think he has any reason to think they wouldn't allow him and his family to live on in Russia as retired Illegals. And I think he's right in that. 

I think it is my paranoia.  Anytime, I read about spies or see them on my screen, it is the first thought that pops into my head.  How do you trust an organization whose main duty is subterfuge?  What do they do, if you are no longer useful or just want to quit?  Perhaps, all spies just end up retired like the move Red.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think it is my paranoia.  Anytime, I read about spies or see them on my screen, it is the first thought that pops into my head.  How do you trust an organization whose main duty is subterfuge?  What do they do, if you are no longer useful or just want to quit?  Perhaps, all spies just end up retired like the move Red.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  We know that many retired CIA officers, and KGB officers aren't really killed though, they go on to help write scripts for TV, for movies, and to publish books, show up on CNN, etc.  Or they quietly go on with less stressful lives managing some chain stores, etc.

Did you listen to the DVD commentary on RED?  It's so good!  Bob Baer, former CIA, and now author and frequent commentator on news programs, consulted on that movie, and did the commentary.  What was true, what was outrageously false, like killing former agents...etc.

However, would the KGB kill Philip or any other illegal that was about to defect and share all the illegal program secrets?  Oh, hell yes.  The moment an agency thought an agent was sharing secrets, they would kill or capture them.  Here?  Probably prison.  For the KGB at that time, it would be a Nina situation at best, but more likely, since Philip is in the USA?  They would just kill him.  He knows much too much, and he would compromise dozens of other agents.

They killed Irina, and she didn't even defect...she just ran.

 

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

In Philip's case I think it's also important to remember that while Elizabeth is obviously his reason for staying, it wasn't his reason for joining. People sometimes talk about the situation was if any character, if they stopped fighting it, would revert to being American, but Philip's inertia goes the other way. This is who he was born, who he was raised to be, who he had been his whole life. Which is why his ideal dream is to continue his life, just without having these jobs to do. Even the secret aspect of it all would continue in Witness Protection. 

I think calling it "joining" doesn't quite work.  That's a free country word, not a Soviet Union word, or even concept.  You did whatever job they assigned you to do, there was no choice in the matter, and "joining" implies a choice, and probably also a desire.  His "reason for joining" was primarily that he was told to join, he was given a job, a relatively good job, with food, and decent clothing, and school, and it was also quite an honor to be chosen.  He excelled and was picked for the illegals program.  His only way out was to deliberately be bad at things--but what would that get him?  Perhaps a one way ticket back to that hovel with nothing to eat. 

Perhaps though, he knew too much, and he wouldn't even get that.  I wonder what happened to the trainees who failed?  Maybe they just became agents like Nina?  Working in an embassy because of their language comprehension, though not the ability to speak without an accent?

Edited April 11, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think calling it "joining" doesn't quite work.  That's a free country word, not a Soviet Union word, or even concept.  You did whatever job they assigned you to do, there was no choice in the matter, and "joining" implies a choice, and probably also a desire.  His "reason for joining" was primarily that he was told to join, he was given a job, a relatively good job, with food, and decent clothing, and school, and it was also quite an honor to be chosen.  He excelled and was picked for the illegals program.  His only way out was to deliberately be bad at things--but what would that get him?  Perhaps a one way ticket back to that hovel with nothing to eat. 

Okay, but whatever his backstory--and we do at least know that there was some choice involved since Elizabeth had one and Irina thought her being pregnancy would make him decide to stay--when the show started he was an officer doing his job with no problem, even if his fears for his children made him see defection as the safer choice now. He was motivated to do the work and even recently has been motivated by the idea that they're doing something important. Even a kid who was honored to be chosen was just that, honored to be chosen. He didn't start out with different values than Elizabeth, he just doesn't weight them the same way. So his loss of faith is a loss. 

[Umbelina]

Maybe, we really don't know that much about Philip's reasons yet.

Either way, his opinions have changed, if he ever even actually had the super loyalty/belief of Elizabeth.  I think we may find out more this season, and it sure feels like this will have a great deal to do with how the show ends.  Propaganda and indoctrination can wear off to those with open minds.  Elizabeth has her father's cowardice to motivate her as well, but we don't know how Philip's dad died yet.

Philip, so far, is willing to be miserable all the time for Elizabeth, but will he honestly be willing to have his daughter "feel like shit all the time" as he does?  We shall see.  When love is destructive, sometimes grown ups walk away, and his love for Elizabeth is destroying not only him, but also Paige.

Many Americans hated Reagan, hated, and still hate many American policies and actions, from killing Lumumba and installing Mobutu in the Congo/Zaire, to our despicable support of Apartheid, to our disgusting acts in Central America, and Americans have a history of protesting and fighting our government while Liz and Phil were living there, Vietnam for example.  They weren't (all) killed, and they still considered themselves Americans, even when they disagreed with their government policies.  Look at Preacher Tim, he's out chaining himself to fences to protest nukes, and he spent what?  A few hours in jail, then out, and free to protest more.

Philip knows that couldn't happen in the Soviet Union.  He knows he shares many beliefs with other actual Americans, and he could still live in this country and hate policy, protest it, try to change it.  He wouldn't be alone, or thrown in a gulag, or an insane asylum because he wanted change.  He knows there are problems with both countries, the main difference being that in America he would have CHOICE, and in the USSR, he has none, and certainly no ability to try and change things.

Love that destroys you inside, that makes you feel sick all the time, isn't real love.  Love that destroys others you love isn't "real love" either.  Or, to put it another way, it's not healthy, it's not good or true.  Philip KNOWS this, and I think that's why he's so torn up inside, along with murdering innocent people for a government he increasingly distrusts, for what?  For one reason.  Elizabeth. 

Does he miss Russia?  Sure.  Everyone misses home at times.  Does he feel a responsibility to his fellow Russian citizens?  Probably a bit, even though we haven't seen any happy memories of them from his flashbacks, his boss tried to rob him for example, he killed the kids that stole from him, his parents look miserable and we know his dad died when he was 6.  Still, he misses icicle sword fights, and the cold...  Does he miss the Soviet Union or really want to return?  I sincerely doubt that.

At this point he's lived as long in the USA as he lived in the Soviet Union.  Where is "home?" 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Umbelina
typos

[crgirl412]

Congratulations to the Bride & Groom!!! 

[BW Manilowe]

I'm hoping I'm not about 5 seasons late in bringing this up but, while I was posting in the thread about the pending Royal Weddings--of Prince Harry & Meghan Markle & Harry's Cousin, Princess Eugenie & John Brooksbank--& Royal Scandals, it suddenly dawned on me (when I mentioned Queen Elizabeth &Prince Phillip while posting) that our protagonists' American first names are also those of the British monarch & her husband. Do you think that was on purpose--Would the Russians do something like that in naming their operatIves?--or was it just an interesting coincidence? 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Do you think that was on purpose--Would the Russians do something like that in naming their operatIves?--or was it just an interesting coincidence? 

This actually just happened to come up on I think Alan Seppinwall's site. The showrunners said it was just a coincidence. They wanted to choose names that were standard English names but weren't so bland that it sounded *too* bland--iow, they didn't want Philip to be called John etc. They just landed on these names because they sounded unique enough and I guess only later realized that it mirrored the royal family.

They also apparently said that the biggest discussion early on, like into the first season, was about whether it was Philip or Phillip. 

[BW Manilowe]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This actually just happened to come up on I think Alan Seppinwall's site. The showrunners said it was just a coincidence. They wanted to choose names that were standard English names but weren't so bland that it sounded *too* bland--iow, they didn't want Philip to be called John etc. They just landed on these names because they sounded unique enough and I guess only later realized that it mirrored the royal family.

They also apparently said that the biggest discussion early on, like into the first season, was about whether it was Philip or Phillip.

That's for sure. When we were at the previous discussion site, I remember it seemed the spelling, on episode descriptions & other official stuff from FX, used 1 L 1 week; 2 L's the next, & went back & forth. For a long time, I used the 2 L's as I thought that was right. Then I gradually went to 1 L because other posters said that was the correct spelling after all. (Shrugs)

[SusanSunflower]

wrong thread

Edited February 20, 2018 by SusanSunflower
wrong thread

[scartact]

Was unable to keep up with season 5 last year because of life (and also, it was kind of a slog), but I finally caught up this week and I loved when Phil and Liz got "real" Mikhail/Nadezhda married! I missed doing in-depth watching, but I thought it was interesting in one of the episodes when Paige asked them if they thought of themselves by their real names or as Philip and Elizabeth now, because now I'm remembering when Elizabeth gave Philip her real name in the Pilot. At one point, those names weren't even on the table. It makes me think about what this means in terms of their own Americanization, since much of the last few eps of season 5 involved them trying to work out this whole idea of retiring back to the USSR. I'm gonna sit on that thought since I just binged the latter half of season 5 and have no real coherent thoughts, but excited/curious for season 6 and I am very curious to see how their new dynamic will shape up.

[Umbelina]

Not sure where to put this but because Elizabeth's father was executed/arrested/whatever as a deserter and it has influenced her life until present time?  I decided here.

I've been reading a trilogy of books by Paullina Simons.  The Bronze Horseman, Tatianna and Alexander, and Summer Garden.  What is most fascinating about these books has been the description of WWII in Russia, specifically the Siege of Leningrad, which is brought to horrifying life by the author, as the city freezes and starves to death for nearly 900 days.  Also, the Stalin rules for his armies were horrifying. 

Basically he threw bodies, including children, in front of German tanks, or soldiers out of ammunition/supplies/reinforcement or vastly outgunned.  Care for the wounded was not available in many cases.  ANYWAY, my main focus for this point, aside from the lack of food which has been discussed in the show, is that Stalin had different rules for "desertion" and "cowardice" than other combatants in the war, or perhaps any other war in modern times.  Surrender of any kind was desertion/treason/cowardice.  If taken alive as POW?  You were a deserter, a coward, and a traitor.  It didn't matter if your ammunition was gone, and you were outnumbered 40,000 to 10, hadn't eaten for weeks, or were almost frozen.  Surrender and you are dead anyway, because you were a coward and a traitor.

After the war, indeed, any captured Russian soldiers that were returned were either shot, or put in re-purposed German concentration camps, which became part of the Gulag system, run by the NKGB, precursor to the KGB.  In most cases, the conditions were as bad or worse than for captured Russian soldiers under German control.  IF they lived through that, which most did not, they were sentenced to many years of prison in work camps / Gulags in Siberia and elsewhere where most of the rest, of course, died.

Side note, Stalin refused to sign the Geneva Accord for POW's so treatment of captured Russians was much worse than for other allied countries. 

The books have a romantic story that is OK, somehow the author makes it believable for the most part.  But if you want a flavor of the world that produced Elizabeth and in some ways Philip if they expand his Gulag childhood?  I recommend them.

@madam magpie What cities are Phil and Liz from again?  I used to care and know, but last season drove it out of me, and you have a great memory!

For others interested in history and what led Gabriel, Claudia, as well as Elizabeth and Philip to this point?  This video is both horrifying and illuminating.  It talks about the NKGB (KGB) and starvation specifically in Leningrad, but applicable in some ways in other places, and purges, etc.  Russian with English subtitles. 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[FormerMod-a1]

I always wondered if Elizabeth's father was actually a deserter (as we'd define it), or if that's what they were told and her mom smartly agreed and "ran with it" for survival purposes.  And then after saying it for so long you believe it.  And Elizabeth being so little at the time, and being told noting else, always believed it.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

@madam magpie What cities are Phil and Liz from again?  I used to care and know, but last season drove it out of me, and you have a great memory!

 

Elizabeth is from Smolensk (wonder if they were evacuated during the war) and Philip is from Tobolsk. :-)

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I always wondered if Elizabeth's father was actually a deserter (as we'd define it), or if that's what they were told and her mom smartly agreed and "ran with it" for survival purposes.  And then after saying it for so long you believe it.  And Elizabeth being so little at the time, and being told noting else, always believed it.

You mean maybe he was really just captured or something? I would totally believe that--the mother might not even know the details. But she'd probably accept Stalin's definition of it regardless and just be properly shamed. 

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I always wondered if Elizabeth's father was actually a deserter (as we'd define it), or if that's what they were told and her mom smartly agreed and "ran with it" for survival purposes.  And then after saying it for so long you believe it.  And Elizabeth being so little at the time, and being told noting else, always believed it.

 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

You mean maybe he was really just captured or something? I would totally believe that--the mother might not even know the details. But she'd probably accept Stalin's definition of it regardless and just be properly shamed. 

As I said, capture or surrender, no matter the circumstances, was considered treason and desertion then.  Stalin was insane.  He just threw thousands of bodies at Germany, equipped, not equipped, trained or not, and while that may have worked in Napoleon's time, it had no place in modern war, with modern weaponry.  Bodies don't work well against tanks and planes.

So Liz's mom wouldn't need to "agree" because those were the rules.  As for how she'd know the circumstances?  That would be problematic in many ways, run into a survivor?  She probably only knew what she was told. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Smolensk_(1941)

Quote

In the end, about 300,000 men were taken prisoner when the encirclement was re-established and the pocket eliminated.[6][7][19]

hmmm, those men taken prisoner, if they didn't die under Germans, would be disgraced and shot or sent to Gulag's later, as well as branded cowards and traitors and deserters.  Also, since Stalin didn't sign the Geneva Accord, those taken prisoner would probably die in camps, but if they survived?  Stalin would have them killed anyway.  Even retreating was considered a crime.

Photos here:  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/press-releases/warfare-ages-tank-museum.html

It sounds like Smolensk would have undergone many of the issues Leningrad had as far as starvation, but since it's not as big of a city, haven't found the documentation yet, or how long they were occupied (which Leningrad was not.)

It sounds like Stalin was mainly concerned with keeping the Germans out of Moscow, and Smolensk was key to that.  I'm listening to more tapes right now, and apparently, some quietly think that because of a rivalry between Leningrad an Moscow, Stalin didn't do all he could.  ??  Or at least, some people felt hat way. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina