Dual Survival - General Discussion

[Biosynth]

I have to admit, I was impressed by the cross bow.  But I'm surprised they hadn't whipped that out sooner.  Maybe he just learned it?

 

Speaking as someone involved with the Archaeology community, atlatls are cool!  I remember when Joe had his doubt if it could take down anything.  And my response to the TV was, "Yeah, a Mammoth."

[Biosynth]

I kind of wonder if production told Joe, "Don't screw up this partner.  Be nicer." 

[Biosynth]

I have to admit, I really like Matt.  I like that he is so positive and doesn't see the situation as something to run from, but something to enjoy and get to know.  And I like that he always seems to have a smile on his face.  I'm wondering if that calms Joe down a bit too. 

 

It's nice to see them working as a team.  I wonder how Joe and Dave would have worked together.  Hmmm.

[Biosynth]

I used to really dislike Joe, but I've grown to like him.  *shrug* I like him with Matt a lot.  I think that they more compatible. 

[tv-talk]

Matt's personality makes Joe look like a douchebag. It will be interesting to see to what extent Joe "softens up" and comes off his asinine attitude about so many things. I think Joe seems like a pretty nice guy but he's stuck trying to be Mr.Military Tough Guy about everything and it's incredibly lame. Wasn't as bad when paired with Cody's various lame idiosyncrasies but now that he's paired with someone who is physically his equal or better (note how often Joe asks Matt to slow down) and who has a wide array of great survival skills......suddenly Joe's philosophy really looks brutish and unappealing. The things is, Joe is playing a role. If his actual personality comes to fore a bit it will be a very different show. These two guys could get along fine and do well in almost all situations, wonder if Joe will have to keep up the ultra-macho persona to maintain the 'conflict' between them. 

[tv-talk]

I think, though, that the fact that Matt's view of nature as more utilitarian is one of the reasons he and Joe get along better than Joe and Cody did.

 

 

I think a big part of why they get along better is that Matt is in such vastly superior physical shape to Cody. Because of that he is capable of much more and pulls his own weight and then some to a greater extent. Cody wanted to move 2mph at all times and it did get ridiculous after awhile. Lundin needed to get out of the weight room and do more cardio if he wanted to keep up on this show. Being barefoot is an excuse for being so slow but many times he just didnt have the endurance to properly handle what was in front of them to the extent Joe does.

 

Now the roles are reversed and it's clearly Matt than has to slow down for Joe and is physically more suited to a lot of what they do. It's obvious Joe appreciates that a ton and with good reason. I mean who wants to be the guy that ALWAYS has to climb the tree or hang on the vine? As the show got much more physical (it's way different than when Dave was there) that kind of phased Cody out in a sense. 

[ElleryAnne]

I think Joe seems like a pretty nice guy but he's stuck trying to be Mr.Military Tough Guy about everything and it's incredibly lame.

 

 

I think Joe seems like a nice enough guy, but I don't think he's "stuck" trying to be Mr. Military Tough Guy.  I think that's what he wants to be, likes to be, and essentially is, and that he probably played it up even more for the show - not realizing that it would come across as douchey to a lot of people.  I'm hoping that if the show comes back for another season, he's had time to see how he came across on TV and might try to tone it down a smidge.

 

Wasn't as bad when paired with Cody's various lame idiosyncrasies but now that he's paired with someone who is physically his equal or better (note how often Joe asks Matt to slow down) and who has a wide array of great survival skills.

 

 

I don't see Cody as having "various lame idiosyncracies", though I guess MMV.  He lives the kind of life he promotes, and while he may not be in better physical shape than Matt, Cody's approach to survival is just as valid and Cody is easily as skilled.  Half the time, Joe seemed to be going out of his way to find the most extreme physical approach available -  climbing and rappelling when it didn't seem necessary.  (DS apparently loved it as good TV, because they kept showing it throughout the season.)  Cody took a slower, steadier approach .  I don't think that's lame or limited to his lack of fitness, but rather a reasonable approach to surviving in unfamiliar territory.  In actual survival situations, it would make sense (I think) to go slowly to minimize the risk of injury, etc.  But the show's concept involves seeing how the two drastically different styles work in actual survival, and it's not as if either is actually right or wrong, or that the more physical approach is better.

 

I don't mind Joe having a more military or physically-aggressive approach to survival, but two things about him annoy me - 1) he often seemed disrespectful of Cody's approach, as if only Joe's own way of doing things was good enough; 2) he becomes a show-off sometimes, trying to be sure he gives the camera crew plenty of chance to capture him being awesome.  Hopefully,  if the show comes back again, those issues will be taken care of.

[tv-talk]

I feel like Cody is a bit of fraud. He was always going on and on about eating 5cal bugs and grass to sustain oneself while it's obvious the guy consumes 2800cal/day and spends a ton of time in gym lifting weights. Matt actually has the build and physicality of someone who lives a 'primitive' lifestyle off the land the way you see with tribal or indigenous peoples. Personally I think he is several levels above where Cody or Joe are insofar as he's ready to thrive in the wild rather than just survive.   

[ElleryAnne]

We'll have to agree to disagree, @tv-talk.   Everything I've learned about Cody over the past few years leads me to believe he's the genuine article.  I don't assume otherwise just because he doesn't have the expected physique.  People have different body types for all kinds of reasons.  From what I've read about Matt, he's legit, too, but not by any means would I rank him above Cody.  Matt just seems to walk more. (Literally. Matt has a history of walking.  Cody has spent years maintaining a natural home, but the kind of work that entails is different than what goes into walking long distances.  But walking long distances isn't a special survival skill, however healthful it is.)

 

I do put them both ahead of Joe as far as actual ability to survive in the wild.  Joe's tendency to treat all of Nature as an enemy wouldn't help him long-term if he had to cope in a remote location.  

Edited September 4, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[tv-talk]

People have different body types for all kinds of reasons.

 

 

Sure they do, but it's physically impossible to maintain 220 some odd pounds by eating grubs and dandelions. I dont doubt that Cody spends a lot of time out in the desert, and of course he teaches those classes out there....but he's also at Whole Foods buying steaks and at Gold's Gym lifting weights. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I'm just saying that it would appear (and from what I've read) that Matt has actually spent significant time LIVING way out in the bush. And I'd say the hunting and shelter building skills he displays seem to indicate a person who would actually thrive if dropped alone in the forest. I'm not quite sure Cody (and certainly not Joe) are that, they seem to be more 'i can survive this!' whereas Matt is more "I'd like to live right here." 

[ElleryAnne]

but it's physically impossible to maintain 220 some odd pounds by eating grubs and dandelions.

 

 

But he's never claimed that he eats only grubs and dandelions, and he doesn't pretend that he does.  So I don't see how he's a fraud.  His background is every bit as legit as Matt's; it's just been informed by different survival experiences.

 

btw - We should probably stop hijacking Joe's thread to talk about Cody.  We're not going to agree on Cody, obviously, but if's there's any further discussion of him, it would make sense to take it to his own thread.

[tv-talk]

Well...anyone still watching haha. 

 

I thought this "Into the Canyons" premier episode pretty much solidified nature of issues that Joe and Cody were having with each other. It seems pretty apparent Lundin was the problem and now the show is moving forward in a much more drama free fashion.

 

It's obvious that Joe fully respects Matt and has no problem deferring to him in various scenarios because Matt is such a bad ass at all this stuff. Having Matt rather than Cody on the show is painting Joe in a much better light, he's not the complete gung-ho 24/7 ahole that he often came off as before- the issue previously was that Lundin is a bit of fraud and more deadweight to the scenarios than actually helping effect survival- that's why Teti came off so poorly.

 

Liked a good deal of this episode however there is just no way it is that easy to catch fish with your bare hands. Certainly not on your 1st attempt and while wearing a wristwatch either. Cool technique though and the show is going to be much better now that Mr.Special Forces isnt behaving like every second requires a weapon and attitude like you're in eminent danger. 

 

Matt is very impressive, interested to see what scenarios they get into for which Joe is going to be the lead dog and why.

Edited January 25, 2015 by tv-talk

[ElleryAnne]

I disagree about the problem being Cody's fault, and I strongly disagree about Cody being a fraud.  I've never seen anything to indicate that he's not the real deal as far as his skills go.

 

If we're going to talk about the new episode, we should open a thread for it.  (If you want me to do that, that's fine.  Just let me know.)

[tv-talk]

I would say sure why not but it doesnt seem like anyone is watching the show anymore!

[tv-talk]

So...is anyone still watching this show?

 

At any rate, this episode was really forced mainly by fact they were in the Alleghanys because it's Joe's home turf but had to play up dangers to make the epsidoe dramatic. Joe sleeping up in a tree because of black bears was absurd, in fact the whole episode centered on danger of black bears which is pretty silly. That's not to say black bears dont cause issues and dangers but it was played up like there were man-eating tigers out there.

 

The dynamic on this show has utterly changed and that will probably be the cause of its cancellation haha. Joe and Matt get along fine because they have total respect for each other and trust each other's knowledge. Watching the two of them you cant help but think how grating it must have been for both Joe and Dave to be a stuck with a guy going barefoot. While it seems cool on tv, if you are actually the other person who is wearing shows and is forced to constantly go at a snail's pace- that would tend to get on your last nerve.

 

The other dynamic is that Matt's 10x better at all this than Joe and Joe knows it, so all the macho Special Forces bravado has basically disappeared. That is a welcome improvement to the dynamic, watching Joe behave like every scenario was happening in the mountains outside Peshawar was fairly lame. So in essence the show has improved in a way which will probably be its downfall due to lack of trumped up conflict and personal drama. Ironic!

[ElleryAnne]

You've made it clear numerous times now that you have a personal contempt for Cody, for reasons I neither understand nor would possibly agree with.  At this point, Cody isn't even in the episodes anymore (or even the SEASON), so I'm not sure why he still ends up being sneered at in each thread.  If you want to continue to putting him down and belittling him,  it should be done in his own thread.  

 

As for the episode, I found it dull.  This season, Dual Survival has become the Joe and Matt Show.  Last week we visited Matt's stomping grounds, and this week we visit Joe's.  I feel like the show is spending less time showing survival skills and more time trying to convince me that 1) I'm supposed to think Matt is great, 2) I'm supposed to think Joe is amazing, and 3) I'm supposed to think the bromance between them is awesome.  But I don't think any of those things, because it's so obvious that they're trying to make me think that.  In reality, I think Matt is boring, Joe is full of himself, and there's not much actually survival-skill stuff happening.  

 

The Alleghenys, really?  I've survived the freakin' Alleghenys in the rain.  And I've avoided the bears, and the bear poo.  And I'm not a survival expert.    At this rate, I expect next week's episode to feature the two of them stuck in a campground.  This was by far the weakest episode they've ever done. 

 

The dynamic on this show has utterly changed and that will probably be the cause of its cancellation

 

 

Now that is something we agree on.

[tv-talk]

Of course Cody is relevant, the show today changed specifically because of last season's dynamic and is currently specifically going away from the drama that it had intentionally created previously. Past seasons are certainly relevant in 1)assessing how the show has changed and 2)why it's changed aka different interpersonal dynamics of the participants. 

 

Yeah the Alleghenies were a terrible choice but I suspect they now have the "home turf" thing out of the way and will get back to more challenging scenarios. 

 

In reality, I think Matt is boring, Joe is full of himself, and there's not much actually survival-skill stuff happening.

 

 

I'm surprised you would think Matt is boring if what you're interested in is survival-skills, he seems to bring very informative stuff to table in every episode most especially when it comes to shelter building which is obviously of prime importance in scenarios like these.

Also I dont have any contempt for Cody, just dont think he brought much to the table aside from fire building.

[ElleryAnne]

Of course Cody is relevant, the show today changed specifically because of last season's dynamic and is currently specifically going away from the drama that it had intentionally created previously. Past seasons are certainly relevant in 1)assessing how the show has changed and 2)why it's changed aka different interpersonal dynamics of the participants.

 

 

Then maybe they belong in an All Seasons thread.  

[tv-talk]

Alright fair enough. So as far as this episode goes I thought Matt's hardening of the utterly unnecessary "force protection" spear Joe insisted upon was actually a really cool technique. I'm also liking how often they are just using leaves to insulate for the night when caught in the dark, I think the show would be better served for narrator to say something like "using leaves in this manner can retain body heat X amount more than sleeping uncovered" or whatever. Would like to know just how effective that is.

[gaPeach]

I have not watched this show in some time but saw that the guys had changed so I thought I would see if it was better now.  Caught the last two episodes and enjoyed them somewhat.

 

I do like the different survival skills they show us but I just cannot get over how they can make fire.  Last night it was with Quartz and a carbon knife.  I wonder how long it really takes them to get the fire going.  Hours?  or just minutes?   

 

And they were soaking wet the first night but the next morning they were both dry in the same clothes.  I camp and know at least the basics and if my clothes were wet the night before I froze during the night and the next morning would be wet, cold and tired.

 

And it did not look like they slept in the cool lean to that the nature guy built and I find it hard to believe that one guy slept up in the trees with a pot of hot rocks to keep him warm.  So do they really stay out there or go to the local Best Western for the night?  Not that I care I like watching the survival tips they give.

[PityFree]

 So do they really stay out there or go to the local Best Western for the night?  

That would be a good episode for which they could bring Cody back -- I'd rather sleep outdoors under a pile of leaves than walk on a hotel room floor barefoot. 

[walnutqueen]

I think Joe was just looking for an excuse to spoon with Matt.  ;-)

[tv-talk]

I'm pretty sure they dont actually sleep in all the set-ups they present for the reason you mention. Also notice they bed down in these supposedly harsh situations but then never bother to show any footage of the actual hours endured over night. If you're looking for the real deal it's Survivorman of course, where you can plainly see the ACTUAL miserable aspects of being stuck outside overnight in the elements. Dual Survival is clearly not that at all.

[Scratch]

Can the show producers please spring for some tutoring lessons to teach Joe that it's not correct to say things, "for Matt and I" or "these things will sustain Matt and I?"  The word me is actually quite useful and is used as an indirect object, direct object and object of a preposition. The presence of "Matt and" does not always mean there should be the word I following. 

[ElleryAnne]

OMG, Scratch, I thought I was the only one who found that annoying!   Every time Joe talks, I find myself correcting him in my head.  :)

[Scratch]

Ah, good, I'm glad you agree with me, ElleryAnne. Usually, I'm not very prescriptivist, but for some reason this recent development among English speakers to put I after "<some noun> and" in every case bugs the heck out of me. It sends a bad shiver down my spine. I've also realized that I should listen to a show sometime to see if Joe ever uses the word us. Does it occur frequently because Joe doesn't say us? I don't know. I'll try to listen to the new episode next week.

 

More about Joe actually, he's improved some since his original entrance and some of that I think is because he and Matt Graham get along much better. Joe's more likely to listen to what Matt has to say than he would listen to Cody. But Joe still tends to be an overly macho blowhard. He's not without a sense of humor, but it's not as frequent or as funny as Dave Canterbury's sense of humor. Joe just tends to be always so dire, so serious. Maybe now that I think about it, that may have been the problem some with the relationship to Cody. Cody also tends to be somewhat dour and serious, although not in that overly macho way. But that probably resulted Cody and Joe just not really enjoying each other's company at all. 

 

So that's why Cody and Dave's interaction was always so much fun. Dave helped to keep Cody from being too serious, plus he listened well. The two were receptive to each other. Matt and Joe work better together because Matt has enough sense of humor and uses it frequently enough to keep Joe from overwhelming the atmosphere between them. 

[ElleryAnne]

But Joe still tends to be an overly macho blowhard.

 

 

Yeah, I don't dislike Joe, but I do wish he'd dial back the macho a notch or ten.  He seems to have stopped treating all of nature as the enemy this season, which I appreciate.  I get the feeling he's still waiting for his chance to punch a tiger into submission just to prove he can, but I no longer worry that he'll follow it up by drinking its blood and eating the raw meat while he growls at the sun.

[tv-talk]

More about Joe actually, he's improved some since his original entrance and some of that I think is because he and Matt Graham get along much better

 

 

It's because Matt brings a ton of skill and ability to the table and can do much more than start a fire. I also suspect Joe can sense how absurd he seems when acting like all of nature is about to kill you while the guy he is with seems to be enjoying himself. Cody was very apprehensive about everything which fed right into Joe's macho man persona as both were always consumed with idea of "threats." Matt is much more at ease than either of them and it's taken the edge off Joe's act.

 

So that's why Cody and Dave's interaction was always so much fun. Dave helped to keep Cody from being too serious, plus he listened well.

 

 

Yeah they definitely had a great dynamic, although I suspect if Dave had stayed by now things would have worn thin anyway just due to standard problem of running out of scenarios and places to be that we'd see with a show like this no matter who was on it. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by tv-talk

[ElleryAnne]

A place for discussion of the show throughout the seasons - the hosts, partnerships, locations, all that fun stuff that goes beyond one episode.

 

Title quote by Joe Teti, obviously.

[ElleryAnne]

Here's the impression I get of each of the four of them over the seasons:

 

Cody always seemed to be someone with a respect for nature and an awareness of his place in it. That respect was two-fold, because he had a genuine appreciation for everything around him but also recognized that sometimes you had to do things to survive. But he seemed always to consider what his actions meant for himself, anyone with him, and the environment.  And he lives what he preaches, and has done so for decades.

 

Dave had a practical approach, and was sometimes too gung-ho, but generally seemed to enjoy the world around him. He knew there were risks in being in tough environments, and he had tips for how to survive, but he never made it seem as if all of nature was a terrible place you had to fight your way through. He admits he "embellished" his resume for the show, but he does have both military experience and a lot of outdoor experience.  

 

Joe treats nature as the enemy.  In his first season in particular, everything was about "the mission".  I get the feeling he doesn't respect nature so much as he sees it as a way to prove himself.  During his first few episodes, I attributed some of this to him just being new to television and possibly trying too hard to impress.  But I think it's really him.  Joe has less sense of joy in these experiences than Dave did.  While Dave was occasionally a show-off and even foolishly risky (the bees, the crocodile, the gunpowder in the wound), Joe approaches everything with much aggression and is downright hostile towards the natural world.

 

Matt seems like someone who chooses to make himself a part of nature and live within it.  I get a different vibe from Matt than I do from Cody. Cody always seemed aware of himself and his place in nature, whereas Matt comes across more as someone who chose to place himself in nature and live among it.  Matt has a less holistic, more utilitarian approach to his relationship with nature than Cody had. I believe he appreciates the world around him, and I don't think he's being disingenous - just more deliberate, if that makes sense.

 

During the Cody-Dave seasons, they seemed to honestly like and respect each other - emphasis on respect - even when they disagreed.  You knew there were times when Dave didn't "get" Cody and the barefoot thing, but he wasn't contemptuous of someone else's philosophy for living as Joe was.  Dave and Cody were usually fun to watch, and I attribute that to the fact that they liked and respected each other, the world around them, and the viewer.

 

Also, they - and the show itself - focused more on teaching survival in the early seasons.  The scenarios were played out with the assumption that someone actually trying to survive the various conditions wouldn't have any special skills or knowledge beyond the basics.

 

I thought there were a lot of useful bits of data in those episodes - like braiding or twining material in order to improve its tensile strength, using mud to reduce the effects of poison ivy, looking for jewelweed and other plants that counter poison ivy and which often grow nearby, how right- and left- handed people walking side-by-side can keep to a straight line over distance by keeping their dominant sides towards each other, etc.  That's in addition to the ways to build fires, look for sources of water, rig up shelters, and especially how to choose the best/safest route to move towards rescue.

 

I don't think there was a lot of relationship drama in those seasons - it was just two people with contrasting approaches to surviving but managing to work together pretty well most of the time. Occasionally they'd argue over something, but there was no underlying disrespect in it. It was pretty much what the show advertised itself to be.

 

The Cody-Joe episodes are unpleasant to watch, because the two are at loggerheads all the time.  Joe seemed determined to show how tough he was, and he had little tolerance and even less respect for Cody.  Cody was aggravated to the point of tearing his hair out at some of Joe's suggestions. Neither of them come across well in those episodes.

 

The Joe-Matt episodes seem to be less about how to survive and more about how Joe and Matt survive in various scenarios. With a healthy dose of the producers signaling, "See how well they get along?" in big neon letters in every episode.  The ratio of useful survival ideas vs. big dramatic moments has shifted. 

 

It's especially grating where Joe is concerned, because his survival methods would leave a less experienced person dead.  Most people who are lost should not drink their own urine.  Or head back up a mountain to get snow when they're already looking at thinner oxygen levels due to altitude.  Or think about hauling maggot-infested cattle with them.  Or try to kill a poisonous snake if they can just get away from it instead.   Or try to hunt wild boar.   Or try to get down into a canyon miles below by skidding over large amounts of unstable terrain, especially when they can't see the entire route down (seriously, how Joe didn't end up with two broken legs in the Canyons episode is beyond me).  Most people should not rappel up and down everything in sight as their first option.

 

Matt, on the other hand, doesn't seem concerned with whether he finds his way out of a survival situation at all.  He's always one step away from setting up a permanent home wherever he finds himself.  If Joe and the camera crew weren't there to prod him on, we might never hear from Matt again.  (Of course, it's entirely possible that without the camera crew we wouldn't hear from Joe again either, because he'd be at the bottom of a ravine somewhere, dangling by one foot after a freak belaying accident.)

 

Say what you will about how going barefoot caused Cody to move more slowly, but in fact moving more slowly and carefully is probably the best way to go when first trying to find your way around unfamiliar terrain.  And Cody never advocated other people go barefoot - and in fact explained more than once how it was a long-term strategy of his but not something other people should do without a lot of research.

 

Anyway, I feel the dynamic of the show has changed, not for the better.  But I do still like the rock-button trick from one of the Joe-Matt episodes, so there's hope yet.

Edited February 7, 2015 by ElleryAnne

[walnutqueen]

Excellent post, ElleryAnne!  I totally agree with your assessments of all 4 characters. 

[tv-talk]

This episode was a bit weak and unfortunately is a 2 parter. While I dont expect of DS that it's as realistic and accurate as Survivorman, it's hard to enjoy the constant threat of various dangers they claim are impending but in fact are obviously not happening. Anyone who has spent time in the tropics knows that if you spent all day swimming in the sun, lifting plane wreckage, running around an island, exerting a ton of energy trying to start fire, and didnt drink a drop of water the whole time you'd be cooked. No not dead but you'd be heading toward very bad shape very quickly not parading around flexing your muscles and coming up with new plans to exert another 2000 calories of energy.

 

They're drinking water and probably eating something too, that couldnt be more obvious.

 

Past that- meh. You dont need to drag a 200 pound airplane wing from the ocean just to sleep somewhat under it. Any other survival tehcniques on display yet? Not that i notcied. I suppose they are going to spearfish in the next episode though which should be good, would like to get another read on that atlatl.

Edited February 7, 2015 by tv-talk

[ElleryAnne]

Best part of the episode was Joe saying that it would be a tough decision for people to decide whether to camp near the cenote with the fresh water, or to camp on the other island near the resources and swim back and forth in shark-infested waters to get to water.  This, for me, is not a tough decision.  If I swam over shark-infested waters once to get to fresh water, I'm not swimming back to the first island unless a Starbucks has sprung up over there while I was away. But I didn't really think much of the airplane-wing resource, so maybe I'm just not suitably impressed with the work they did to drag it around and didn't think it was worth my life.

 

I laughed at their separate fishing expeditions.  Matt goes fishing, catches a red snapper, and hopes its soul finds a good place to move to as he pats its little dead body.  So of course then Joe wants to go fishing, too - where he goes after a venomous lionfish so he can explain how all its points are deadly.  The editors must have a good time with this show sometimes.

[walnutqueen]

Did they even end up using that airplane wing for anything?  Because it seemed like a huge waste of energy, and could only provide shade that was easily found under a tree ...

[ElleryAnne]

I don't think they did, walnutqueen.  And I agree - I was thinking as I watched the episode that it seems like a lot of what they did in Part One was a waste of energy.  

 

The plane wing didn't amount to much, and Joe's de-salinator was a flop, and even Matt's fire-making efforts and Joe's time locating the pulley all had very little payoff once they decided to go to the other island.  I do think it was the smart choice to go to the other island, but it made Part One seem less like a survival show and more like a cautionary tale about scouting the land and prioritizing needs.

Edited February 13, 2015 by ElleryAnne

[tv-talk]

Best part of this episode was Joe's tin can spear gun never being seen in use and just casually ignored. Why not show that it failed miserably and doesnt work at all? Seems like something the producers should include if they're more interested in illustrating to viewers what works and what doesnt rather than keeping up appearances. 

[PityFree]

I agree! Great analysis of the hosts, ElleryAnne! I laughed when you got to Matt and his tendency to want to just stay where they are stranded and live there forever.

[tv-talk]

After the somewhat forced hardships of the Alleghenies and Georgia swamps where you knew there had to be people nearby, this episode seemed very down and dirty. Much of that terrain was really dangerous and there are a couple points where I wonder what safety measures (possibly unseen) are being taken. Some of that climbing is flat out life threatening and if they keep doing stuff like that the series could end in disaster. Isnt that the issue Lundin had with the producers that caused the rift? 

 

At any rate, it's more entertaining to watch I suppose than seeing them hiking around foothills of Pennsylvania so there's that.

[ElleryAnne]

Some of that climbing is flat out life threatening

 

 

Yeah, that's something that's been bugging me for the past couple of seasons.  It seems like risky ascents/descents have become a regular thing now, when it would often make sense to try to avoid doing so.  Joe seems fond of choosing climbing-based options. I can understand his point when it's to get a decent vantage point to see from, like he wanted to do in this episode, as long as it's not along unstable terrain and there's a navigable way back down if needed.  But it doesn't always seem worth the risk otherwise, and it seems like it's only chosen to amp up the drama.  It's certainly not something the average person in a survival situation would be safe doing. 

 

it's more entertaining to watch I suppose than seeing them hiking around foothills of Pennsylvania

 

 

Yeah, the cliff they're currently stuck on is part of some beautiful scenery.  Not survival-friendly, but pretty.

[ElleryAnne]

Matt and his tendency to want to just stay where they are stranded and live there forever.

 

 

Seriously, watching him is like watching House Hunters, Outdoor Edition.  I keep waiting for him to choose between trees for shelter based on whether his wishlist includes a location near water or more space for a fire pit.  Or maybe an extra room for when Joe visits.

[tv-talk]

Haven't watched it yet but sounds like there will good measure of the forced drama/conflict the show's producers cant get away from anymore.

[PityFree]

Seriously, watching him is like watching House Hunters, Outdoor Edition.  I keep waiting for him to choose between trees for shelter based on whether his wishlist includes a location near water or more space for a fire pit.  Or maybe an extra room for when Joe visits.

No need for an extra room. We all know that Joe will insist on staying in Matt's bedroom.  

[ElleryAnne]

Did they amp up the douche factor for this episode? 

 

Joe, in his confessional after the swim across the channel:  "Was the risk worth the reward?  Yes. Joe is right again."    As if the arrogance wasn't enough without referring to himself in third-person.

 

Matt, as a feral pig was twitching beneath his hands as it died:  "I was thanking the pig for leaving its flesh behind..."  Really?  Did the pig have a choice?  I know Matt's done that before, with the thank-you and well-wishes in finding a new home for your soul thing as he killed something, but it bugged me this time. Possibly because of the twitching.  I know Matt said the poor pig was already dead, but Matt's little speech just came across as self-serving and smug.

 

I hope the production crew made sure someone took care of those pits Joe dug.  I'd hate to think they just left them there for some unfortunate creature - pig, hiker or other - to fall into and die needlessly.  

[nottopbravo]

I hope the production crew made sure someone took care of those pits Joe dug.  I'd hate to think they just left them there for some unfortunate creature - pig, hiker or other - to fall into and die needlessly.  

 

That was my first thought as well.  But if I recall correctly, as soon as Joe saw that Matt had killed a pig, Joe went back to disarm the traps (not shown).  He (Joe) also said if you set traps and intend to leave the area, you should disarm the traps. 

 

What was amazing was watching Matt make a atlatl and kill a pig with it (in what seemed a first try). 

[tv-talk]

I'd bet Joe didnt even set spikes in rest of pits and for sure that lil pig was a setup, just right there at end of trail with no awareness whatsoever...poor thing was probably domestic. It's just not that easy.

 

HOWEVER, for sure Matt's skill with the atlatl and primitive hunting in general is awesome. The guy puts Cody, Joe, and Dave to shame insofar as these are barely survival situations for him- he's fully prepared and able to just live in these places. I think he's sincere about the "spirit" stuff with the animals, the guy is for real, you dont have skills like that otherwise.

 

Overall episode was ok I guess, mainly love the scenery and geography of the location. The argument over hunting was pretty forced and seemed like made up conflict by the producers. Cody was kind of a deadweight and thus polar opposite to Joe's overly gung-ho way of doing things which made for what seemed to be real conflicts. However Matt is actually better than Joe at most all of what they have to do and Joe clearly respects his abilities so there really isnt much genuine conflict that's going to happen. Producers should just stick to nuts and bolts of survival and focus more on specifics of various techniques put into play.

[ElleryAnne]

But if I recall correctly, as soon as Joe saw that Matt had killed a pig, Joe went back to disarm the traps (not shown).

 

 

You're right, he did.  I'm just not sure whether disarming the traps would include filling in the pits.

 

 

Cody was kind of a deadweight

 

 

No, he wasn't.  

[tv-talk]

re: The Out of Ashes comment that relative to Matt, Cody was basically a deadweight that needed to be carried along. In terms of each guy's survival skills I would rank the order as:

 

Matt- this guys is as advanced as anyone you will see on television when it comes to living from the land. Extremely impressive skillset, can basically do everything well and transition from surviving to thriving relatively quickly. His shelter building skills and hunting ability are really something, very interesting to watch him work. The downside being it's not so much survival skills for the avg viewer with him, I mean you arent going to fashion an atlatl or blowgun and develop skill needed to use them effectively when you are stranded or lost and without resources. You can be sure there was a period Matt had plenty of supplies and a camp as he learned how to do all this stuff- that makes much of his skillset perhaps less relevant to viewer.

 

Dave- this guy was great too. Very realistic blend of woodsman and regular guy, surely the most 'relate-able' of the 4 to the avg viewer in terms of how he perceived situations and how he approached surviving. Of the 4 I would say Dave had by far the most useful skillset in terms of something a viewer would watch on television and then keep in mind for later use. The show has always been too light on that very dynamic, but Dave was very practical and seemed to balance risk/reward quite well aside from some notable exceptions that were probably TV show based anyway.

 

Joe- bull in china shop. Definitely knows a good deal but basically tries to get himself killed for no apparent reasons most of the time. For all the special forces bluster around his character it's actually pretty clear that most useful skills he has probably came from general hunting and outdoor life rather than military background. In terms of gleaning survival tips as a viewer, this guy is a terrible, would have you free climbing a 90' rock wall because you forgot 4" of dental floss at top when you foolishly rappelled.  He's a television character basically.

 

Cody- More image than substance. Very much like Joe he behaved as if Mother Nature is a Relentless, Ruthless Killer but his reason for doing so was to excuse how painfully slow and absurd it was to try and go barefoot everywhere. Go to any 3rd would country and you'll find barefoot people who somehow move much faster and with less problems than Cody. He's a guy who spends as much time barefoot buying steaks at Whole Foods and lifting at the gym as he does in harsh environs. While I appreciate and agree with some of his philosophies on nature, he just didnt offer much in way of real survival skills/tips other than him being a master of starting fires which was pretty great but not unique. Foraging for disgusting 4cal bugs to eat is made for television not actual survival.

 

Dave and Cody really were the best pairing, none of the episodes since Dave left have been as good as the run with the 2 of them imo.

[ElleryAnne]

Cody- More image than substance.

 

 

So I'm curious - why do you think that?  Over the past several years, I've seen and read a number of things about him and he very much seems to be the genuine article.  I know that not everyone gets the shoeless thing, but he is very well-respected for his expertise in primitive skills and he comes by those skills honestly, from the way he's lived for many years.  He's the most "substance" and least "image" of the four hosts, IMO.

 

In his episodes/seasons, he does a lot more than just demonstrate fire-making skills.  He also shows how to build several kinds of shelters, find water in arroyos, use things found in nature to treat skin conditions/injuries/etc.  As for the bug-eating, that has as much to do with survival as anything else.  Hunting for large game expends a lot of calories, while picking up a few grubs doesn't.  The bug-eating wasn't made for television; the hunting was.  (I think there was an article where he explained that difference in rationale in the bug-vs-hunt choices.  I'll try to find it.  ETA:  Found it.  It's roughly half-way through the article.  The article itself talks about several Discovery survival shows.)

Edited March 10, 2015 by ElleryAnne

[tv-talk]

Thanks for the link! Interesting stuff though all of it to be expected. For my money Les Stroud laps the competition as far as these shows are concerned, Survivorman really is the best of the lot and it's not close...yet we see how even there you end up with a "Bigfoot" series of episodes that almost assuredly was related to network pressure for ratings etc.

 

At any rate, when I said more image than substance what I mean was mainly two-fold...one, that by not wearing shoes and talking up how powerful his mitochondria were Lundin was presenting this image of this uber-rugged guy who could simply endure much more than "average" people yet in fact he's the guy who couldnt seem to hack the rigors of the show. He's the one who physically was not up to the tasks and imho generally hid behind the whole barefoot thing as an excuse to do everything at a snail's pace and never confront much physical exertion. I mean the scene where Joe basically towed him across the channel in the tropics was ridiculous on several levels but one was the sheer fact of Cody not even swimming. Second I think the way he looks down on a guy like Dave as not having real skills and kind of accuses others of being focused on TV falls a bit short when you consider the actual skills displayed by these people and the fact that Lundin has been pushing to be on television for years and continues to do so. He's got no standing to look down his nose at others given his own set of skills isnt particularly impressive (relatively speaking of course) and he has a raftload of his own TV ambitions. Just my $.02

Edited March 11, 2015 by tv-talk

[ElleryAnne]

by not wearing shoes and talking up how powerful his mitochondria were Lundin was presenting this image of this uber-rugged guy who could simply endure much more than "average" people yet in fact he's the guy who couldnt seem to hack the rigors of the show.

 

 

I don't think it's that he couldn't hack the rigors of the show.  I think his philosophy of the show, and of surviving, is different than what the show wanted.  Cody teaches survival as something one does carefully, and with a particular understanding of the natural world around him, often using methods and techniques that aboriginal peoples developed.  It takes a different type of strength and ruggedness than the macho-man stuff that Joe tries to embody, but it's absolutely as valid. Also, Cody shows a greater concern for whether someone with less skill and knowledge than he has could use the techniques to survive.  (Also more concern for the production crew, as that article points out.)  

 

He doesn't hide behind the barefoot thing.  That's part of his approach. He believes that part of experiencing and learning about one's environment includes that direct contact with the terrain - not by just occasionally going barefoot but developed over the long term, even in unforgiving environments.  Obviously it's annoying to someone like Joe because Joe wants to attack nature, and fighting requires armor - including shoes.  One of the reasons Joe gets along better with Matt is that even though Matt represents the "primitive skills" side of the equation, he's toned it down and made some pragmatic concessions - like wearing sandals.  (I think one of the reasons Matt's showy "thank you for leaving your flesh behind" stuff is beginning to irk me is that it seems like an easy way for him to make himself feel like he's more attached to a philosophy than he really is.)

 

I mean the scene where Joe basically towed him across the channel in the tropics was ridiculous on several levels but one was the sheer fact of Cody not even swimming.

 

Is that the scene where Cody's on the raft using the pole and Joe's in the water pushing it?  If so, then yes,  I remember that looking weird.  I'm trying to remember if Joe first fell in the water and then continued pushing, while Cody stayed on it and used the pole to guide it?  

 

But I admit that water is not Cody's friend.  Back in a couple of the early episodes with Dave that came up, too.  Cody isn't comfortable swimming. He's said so himself.  Swimming won't be his first choice as a means of getting to rescue, but he will (and has) chosen it if it's the obvious best choice.  OTOH, Joe has mentioned having all kinds of training in the water, so he'll choose it more quickly. Actually, it's one of those situations where the show can use the different mindsets and strengths to its advantage to create "natural" drama rather than the manufactured stuff, because people in survival situations actually do sometimes have to decide whether to cede to a partner's strength or weakness.   (There have been a couple of recent eps that had Joe and Matt make similar decisions, but Matt is so easy-going that there was no drama.  He just let Joe have his way.)

 

the way he looks down on a guy like Dave as not having real skills

 

 

I really like Dave, in spite of his embellished list of skills.  And during the show, Cody and Dave got along really well, in spite of the fact that there were probably times when it was obvious that Dave's skills weren't what he claimed they were.  I don't blame Cody for being angry that the show didn't vet people properly, since a) he's going to be relying on that person's skills and has a right to trust that those skills are real, and b) it reflects on him as a member of the show if the show can be accused of misrepresentation.  I do hope Cody's forgiven Dave and isn't still angry at him, but it is what it is.  FWIW, I do think Dave brought a decent outdoor skillset to the show, even if it wasn't quite the survival skillset that he claimed.

 

 he has a raftload of his own TV ambitions

 

Does he?  I know he's trying to put together an online series about primitive skills.  And I know he's been offered other survival shows and turned them down.  (The beauty-pageant thing he refers to in the article must be a joke, though, right?  Even the Discovery Channel wouldn't try to do a survival show featuring naked beauty contestants?)  I can't fault him for wanting to expand his career.  All four of these guys have done things to get on TV.  Matt's been on other shows before this one, and both Dave and Joe have apparently dressed up their military-expertise résumés in order to be considered for this one.  I don't think Cody looks down on anyone for wanting to be on TV, per se.  I think he looks down on them for being willing to lie or teach faulty or dangerous things in order to do so.

 

For my money Les Stroud laps the competition as far as these shows are concerned, Survivorman really is the best of the lot and it's not close...yet we see how even there you end up with a "Bigfoot" series of episodes that almost assuredly was related to network pressure for ratings etc

 

 

Yeah, I also like Stroud very much. (The Bigfoot stuff would have me rolling my eyes if it was anyone else, but I'll give him some leeway just because he's Les Stroud.) He has many of the same complaints about Discovery that Cody does.  (As does Hawke, according to that article.)  It's a shame that the network feels it needs to amp up the artificial drama, because the circumstances, scenery, and basic survival skills they can teach are enough to make the shows interesting without the addition of unnecessary near-death falls or the threat of visits by mysterious creatures.

Edited March 11, 2015 by ElleryAnne