S03.E13: Hemlock

[sinkwriter]

Poisoning, though... that's taking an awfully big chance, given that his own son is likely to be dining with her and mistakes could be made. I don't know why he would want Joan dead or not care about his own son getting potentially caught in the crosshairs, so I hope it's not his dad.

[fauntleroy]

Two inanely trite observations about the dinner:

 

Andrew's dad is Babu, from Seinfeld! Jerry accidently caused him to miss an immigration deadline and he ended up getting sent back to Pakistan.

 

And, the table at the restaurant seemed about four inches too high. They all looked like little kids.

[possibilities]

Just wanted to say that I know they need to do some exposition, and I usually don't mind. But this week it just seemed to make Joan seem particularly dim. I don't always think that's so. I think they usually handle the exposition much better.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

the table at the restaurant seemed about four inches too high. They all looked like little kids.

It also didn't help that the white fabric behind the booth was so tall. That definitely contributed to the Edith Ann look.

Andrew's dad is Babu, from Seinfeld! Jerry accidently caused him to miss an immigration deadline and he ended up getting sent back to Pakistan.

Very bad man! Edited February 7, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Curious5]

So maybe Andrew isn't dead.  Here is a link for treatment.... http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821362-treatment#a1126.%C2'> Maybe since Watson diagnosed  it so quickly, the correct treatment will be done and Andrew is back in the triangle.

[basil]

So maybe Andrew isn't dead.  Here is a link for treatment.... Maybe since Watson diagnosed  it so quickly, the correct treatment will be done and Andrew is back in the triangle.

I don't see a link in your post, but death by hemlock isn't nearly so quick or neat as the show portrayed it. Watson, in "Hemlock", didn't demonstrably diagnose anything other than that Andrew wasn't breathing nor was his heart beating - she was just administering first aid. If I understand correctly, hemlock kills by depressing the respiratory system. Unless he gets intubated or given mouth by mouth in a minute or two, he'll be really most completely dead. If kept oxygenated until the hemlock wore off, he could survive - but Joan was only working his heart, not giving him oxygen.

 

Poison has always been considered a woman's weapon, so I'm going for Irene or Gina Gershwin's character, using a hitwoman.

 

How did the assassin know where they were going, or was she just following them in hopes for a chance to dose Joan? 

Edited February 7, 2015 by basil

[sinkwriter]

I was curious about the hemlock, so I pulled out an old book I have that I bought back in high school because I wanted to be a mystery novelist. (Who knows? Maybe I could still do it for fun as a hobby. It's a dream. *GRIN*) Anyway, the book is all about poisons and the level of toxicity and how quickly it may kill your story's victim. 

 

I looked up hemlock, and they gave it the highest toxicity rating, which means it's supertoxic and for a 150 pound human being you'd probably need less than 7 drops (less than 5mg/kg) to be lethal. But the book does say that first symptoms usually start in a half hour and "it takes several hours for death." So I'm wondering if they upped the dosage, maybe it would work faster, like it did on Andrew? I don't know that works; I'm not an evil mastermind, LOL. My book says "gastric lavage works as an antidote only if done immediately after ingestion" otherwise you're pretty much screwed because it paralyzes the lungs. YIKES. There's more fun information (LOL) about symptoms and case histories of its usage in books and in real life,, but I'll leave it at that. Anyway, interesting stuff! And again I say, poor Andrew. I really don't think he survived that.

Edited February 7, 2015 by sinkwriter

[shapeshifter]

...Poison has always been considered a woman's weapon...

Good point. And jealousy is a common motive. So perhaps the perp is a woman who is in love with either Sherlock or Andrew.

[basil]

Quite frankly, I doubt any woman is so attached to Sherlock that she'd kill Joan over him. Likewise poor Andrew.

 

We have two female big bads, My bet is it's one of them.

 

So I'm wondering if they upped the dosage, maybe it would work faster, like it did on Andrew? I don't know that works; I'm not an evil mastermind, LOL. My book says "gastric lavage works as an antidote only if done immediately after ingestion" otherwise you're pretty much screwed because it paralyzes the lungs

I'm not an evil mastermind, but I didn't have to look any of that up - a higher dosage does not equal a faster death with hemlock, and as I said above, if Andrew were kept oxygenated until he were put on a respirator until the hemlock left his system, he could survive (it has happened). Joan was giving him chest compressions, but not mouth to mouth, so he probably didn't make it.

 

On the lighter side of things, Sherlock's second lady companion popping up made me spit out my tea.

 

Also, why isn't Sherlock talking to his old pal Angus any more - and why doesn't pate stick guy have a name?

Edited February 7, 2015 by basil

[possibilities]

Do we know for sure that the poison used was hemlock? Yes, that's the name of the episode, but it might be a different actual poison used. At the end of the episode, Joan had just started doing chest compressions, so she hadn't decided he was a lost cause yet.

 

And this does make me wonder: it seemed like his throat had closed up, so what he needed was to get his airway cleared. But would you want to risk giving mouth-to-mouth, or really any unshielded contact, with someone who appeared to have been poisoned? What is the protocol in that kind of situation?

 

It looked like anaphylaxis to me, so I also wondered if it was a peanut-based toxin or something like that. Since Joan was the target, that would depend on someone who knew she had an allergy, and I don't suppose we've heard anything to indicate she does.

 

Maybe he's dead. Probably he is. But I don't think we were actually shown for sure.

[basil]

Do we know for sure that the poison used was hemlock?

Yes, but only because of the promo. Joan says something like "Someone put hemlock in my boyfriend's coffee". Seems like a unreliable poison to use (it's a slow, messy death, onset is slow and the poisoned person can survive), but I think they just liked the Sherlock/hemlock thing, so they took the literary license and ran with it. They've done it before (remember super secret AI Bella computer whose programmer (?) wouldn't connect her to the internet but would download the music from some kid onto her that had some encrypted flash that triggered a fatal seizure in him?). Most shows will ignore the truth if it makes for a better story.

 

would you want to risk giving mouth-to-mouth, or really any unshielded contact, with someone who appeared to have been poisoned? What is the protocol in that kind of situation?

 

 

I am pretty sure, by NYC law, any place that serves food or beverages has those barrier devices to protect the person giving mouth to mouth. I could be wrong, but there is usually a sign announcing their presence somewhere in every place I can recall, not that that device would have assisted Andrew if his throat was closed. It just would have protected Joan. Perhaps an emergency trach could have been performed. Also, we the audience pretty much knew Andrew had been poisoned, but in the immediate seconds after Andrew collapsed, though, there was no real reason for Joan to know. He could have been having some sort of stroke or seizure.

 

Maybe he's dead. Probably he is. But I don't think we were actually shown for sure.

I don't think we were either, even in the promo, but it sure didn't look good.

Edited February 7, 2015 by basil

[cali1981]

Another very enjoyable episode.  I laughed out loud when Sherlock was enjoying the company of one and then two lovely ladies.  You go son!  It was good to see more of the old repartee between Sherlock and Joan.  While the Kitty story arc was very well done with a top notch acting job by Ophelia Lovibond, getting the show back to its roots is most welcome. It was also nice to see Brian George as Andrew's father.  He's a wonderful actor, probably best known for Seinfeld but who has done guest shots on a lot of TV shows over the years. 

[sinkwriter]

I thought the promo had these words interspersed with the images of next week's episode: (put behind a spoiler in case mentioning it ahead  of time is a no-no here)

 

"Can one death give Watson a reason to live?" That indicated to me that poor Andrew is dead.

 

Another very enjoyable episode.  I laughed out loud when Sherlock was enjoying the company of one and then two lovely ladies.  You go son!

 

LOL. It amused me too. But I did find it curious -- this side of Sherlock contrasts greatly with the buttoned up to the neck version we see on a regular basis. I just don't understand the need for Sherlock to be so buttoned up every week. Why can't he be his odd, obnoxious self while also being a bit "rock 'n roll" like this? Has Jonny Lee Miller talked about it? I'd be very curious to hear his take on the character and why Sherlock dresses the way he does.

[possibilities]

I missed the promo, somehow, so that would be why anything in it skipped past me.

 

Sherlock's never been as buttoned up as his wardrobe. I take it as a commentary on how people are not always what they appear to be at first glance.

[sinkwriter]

That's a good point.

 

I do feel like they over-exaggerate it, though. And though I would need to go back and rewatch, it seemed different in season 1 - when he meets Joan, he's not even dressed, and then he's pulling on a t-shirt and is much more relaxed in attire, a little more hip with the scarves and the jackets, etc. Now he's got these shirts that button up to the chin and it throws me. I don't know if they're doing it purposefully because after everything that's happened with Moriarty, they're trying to demonstrate that he's a little (or a lot) more closed up, or if there's even a conscious reason for him dressing so tightly. It's just curiosity on my part... I'm interested in the details!  :)

[jhlipton]

On Bonanza, falling for any of the Cartwrights, including Dad, was usually a death sentence. But the same is true for pretty much any show with an unattached male lead (such as both versions of Hawaii 5-0).

The "Watson is a dummy now" moment for me was when she only remembered one letter of the license plate. The other parts I could hand-wave as Exposition Fairy stuff.

I was pissed with how they handled the bulk of the "Mother Load" files as all or nothing. Neither the wife nor Sherlock had to make an immediate decision. They could go through the files one by one and forgive any or all of each debt.

In spite of this, I really liked the episode -- it was one of their best.

[Curious5]

What we need is Hank Lawson from Royal Pains to run in with a ball point pen and jam it in his throat for an airway.

[basil]

Sherlock's never been as buttoned up as his wardrobe. I take it as a commentary on how people are not always what they appear to be at first glance.

One thought is that he's heavily tattooed. His wardrobe disguises that completely.

 

though I would need to go back and rewatch, it seemed different in season 1 - when he meets Joan, he's not even dressed, and then he's pulling on a t-shirt and is much more relaxed in attire, a little more hip with the scarves and the jackets, etc. Now he's got these shirts that button up to the chin and it throws me.

 

He had left the rehab early and was not expecting Joan upon their first meeting. Someone appearing to be a hooker had just left. In the brownstone, Sherlock has often been partially unclothed, shirtless or in t-shirts - it's only when he ventures out that he's all buttoned up - and I think that's been true from the beginning.

[sinkwriter]

 

He had left the rehab early and was not expecting Joan upon their first meeting.

 

I would question that (the not expecting her part), just because it's Sherlock. He seemed to be very much aware of her based on his father's email; he just didn't care about how or when she showed up or what she thought. Or maybe since he'd already studied her background, he deduced that she'd come looking for him and so he did it to challenge her right off the bat, to see how shakable she might or might not be. She was an invasive stranger and -- to him -- a glorified babysitter, and he didn't want her or need her. (Or so he thought... *chuckles*)

 

 

Sherlock has often been partially unclothed, shirtless or in t-shirts - it's only when he ventures out that he's all buttoned up - and I think that's been true from the beginning.

 

To me it feels like in most episodes these days he's become more buttoned up indoors at home as well, not just when venturing out. The scene in this episode with the two women was the first time I felt we'd seen him that uninhibited in a long time. I just wonder about the reasons for it (for being so buttoned up to the point of looking like a fundamentalist shut-in), that's all.

 

This, for example, is really interesting to me:

 

 

One thought is that he's heavily tattooed. His wardrobe disguises that completely.

 

Makes me wonder about how the captain and Marcus see Sherlock as a person, and if it would surprise them to know he's so heavily tattooed. Would some things make more sense about him, or would they think it was bizarre or rebellious or out of character?

Edited February 7, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Zahdii]

I didn't think Joan was being dumbed down when I was watching the show.  I simply figured that Joan was aware that Sherlock was not only bored, but lonely, so she was deliberately giving him lots of openings to explain things.  Joan didn't really need all those explanations, most of the audience didn't either, but Sherlock was approaching full-blown mania and he needed some kind of outlet. 

 

Sex (even a threesome) hadn't done the trick, chess wasn't helping, even beating up a dummy was futile.  He needed a case, and he needed a qualified partner so he could not only put his racing mind to work, but also use their interaction to bleed off some of that pent up energy.

 

I hope that Andrew survives, but I'd think it'd take a talented hitman/woman to poison Joan's coffee so quickly while she's actually holding the cups, and not have her notice.  Someone that good at their job probably wouldn't take the chance that their target would survive past the first sip of coffee.  And to think that the first time I saw Andrew I was suspicious of him and worried he was either a spy or a hitman.

[jhlipton]

Makes me wonder about how the captain and Marcus see Sherlock as a person, and if it would surprise them to know he's so heavily tattooed. Would some things make more sense about him, or would they think it was bizarre or rebellious or out of character?

 

But haven't we seen Sherlock shirtless (say that three times fast)? Both the character and the actor have a shoulder tattoo: 

But I wouldn't call that "heavily tattooed" by today's standards.

[sinkwriter]

Are those all real? I'm fascinated by the number and by the "mother-father-sister-brother" -- wonder what the significance is?

 

 

But haven't we seen Sherlock shirtless (say that three times fast)?

 

Heeee. I tried; it was pretty comical.

 

I wouldn't say he's necessarily "heavily tattooed" (I was just quoting Basil), but he does have tattoos going down each arm, plus on his back, which is not a simple one or two tattoos. *GRIN* Anyway, I have no issue with them; I find them beautiful. But I do have character curiosity about it. The significance of the tattoos, etc. And since Basil mentioned that Sherlock tends to be more buttoned up when heading outside into the world, it made me wonder if that's how the Captain and Marcus (and most of the precinct) see him, as this odd, sometimes arrogant, brilliant, stiff-shouldered, very buttoned up man. And would they find it interesting and different and see Sherlock in a new light, seeing his tattoos? Would it make a difference, surprise them, amuse them, make them realize -- as Possibilities says -- that Sherlock is not as he may appear to be at first glance. We've already seen them begin to understand him better as they've gotten to know him and know some of his past and about his drug abuse; it's just a mild curiosity on my part to wonder if the tattoos would be yet another interesting and unexpected piece of puzzle about him.

 

I don't think the team has seen his tattoos; just Joan, perhaps?

[Athena]

Are those all real? I'm fascinated by the number and by the "mother-father-sister-brother" -- wonder what the significance is?

 

These are all JLM's real tattoos. The number is 26.2 miles which is the length of a marathon. JLM is a runner and does ultra marathons.

[basil]

I would question that ([sherlock had left the rehab early and] the not expecting her part), just because it's Sherlock. He seemed to be very much aware of her based on his father's email; he just didn't care about how or when she showed up or what she thought. Or maybe since he'd already studied her background, he deduced that she'd come looking for him and so he did it to challenge her right off the bat, to see how shakable she might or might not be.

While I wouldn't argue most of your points, I'm sticking to saying he wasn't expecting her just then. How would he have known she knew that he left the rehab early? I do believe he expected Joan that afternoon, just not at that moment. If he really wanted to shock her, he could have made sure the hooker was still there and he was still handcuffed to the ladder.

 

Makes me wonder about how the captain and Marcus see Sherlock as a person, and if it would surprise them to know he's so heavily tattooed. Would some things make more sense about him, or would they think it was bizarre or rebellious or out of character?

I doubt either would be the least bit surprised, especially the captain. 

 

But haven't we seen Sherlock shirtless (say that three times fast)? Both the character and the actor have a shoulder tattoo:

As Athena said, all of Sherlock's tattoos are JLM's real tattoos, and yes, we the audience have seen them many times. We've even seen him touching up a tattoo on his forearm and offering Joan one - but as far as I know, we haven't seen him expose them outside of the brownstone - so we don't know if Bell or Gregson have ever seen them. My guess? They have - at least the captain.

 

But I wouldn't call that "heavily tattooed" by today's standards.

Hey, YMMalwaysV. I have a lot of tattoos personally. I would call JLM heavily tattooed, but he still has plenty of skin left ;) 

 

I have no issue with [sherlock's tattoos]; I find them beautiful. But I do have character curiosity about it. The significance of the tattoos, etc.

Yes, all real, and the 26.2 tat represents JLM's love of running marathons (Athena beat me to it). There's one down. He often runs for charities.

 

;)

Edited February 7, 2015 by basil

[paigow]

These are all JLM's real tattoos. The number is 26.2 miles which is the length of a marathon. JLM is a runner and does ultra marathons.

Luckily, JLM is not from Harlan, KY. which eliminates any Swastikas or "Ma, Pa, Bro, Sis" artwork because nobody could spell the longer words.

[shapeshifter]

Maybe he's dead. Probably he is. But I don't think we were actually shown for sure

I don't think we were either, even in the promo, but it sure didn't look good.

So there's still a slim chance for us to hear something like:

Sherlock: Where's Andrew staying now that he's been released from the hospital?

Watson: He decided to spend some time in his *Homeland.*

What we need is Hank Lawson from Royal Pains to run in with a ball point pen and jam it in his throat for an airway.

Or MacGyver or any of the other myriad of characters who have performed tracheotomies in that manner. I seem to recall seeing one (fictional) recently in an elevator during a lockdown with murderers on the loose in a conference center.

[dr pepper]

Lots of shows have main characters who can't have relationships, or sometimes any sex at all, without their partner dying; personally i think it's overused.

Agreed on Andrew's father. I did get a villain vibe from him.

Not surprised at the fast death (or at least collapse). "Hemlock" doesn't have to mean that the actual plant was used; it could be a concentrated extract, or even a synthetic analog with greater potency.

[Mama No Life]

Loved this episode. As much as I enjoyed Kitty, it was so nice to have Watson and Sherlock back together again.  Loved his compliment to her about beating someone in the head, and how she didn't skip a beat in accepting it that way.  

"I don't hang out Watson". 

"...or have you taken another lover?" with that smile that shows he hopes she has. 

"Just when I think you know me rather well you go and suggest a roommate (paraphrased)...." 

 

All kinds of love.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Mama No Life

[basil]

Loved his compliment to her about beating someone in the head, and how she didn't skip a beat in accepting it that way.

Yes, in her "Well, that's really weird but he means it" kind of way.

 

"...or have you taken another lover?" with that smile that shows he hopes she has

 

 

....and he is ready to hear all about it.

 

Also loved Watson mentioning that there was no evidence that the missing fire extinguisher had been used and Holmes' dry response:

 

"I expect it was used for off-label purposes".

[pancake bacon]

That's a good point.

 

I do feel like they over-exaggerate it, though. And though I would need to go back and rewatch, it seemed different in season 1 - when he meets Joan, he's not even dressed, and then he's pulling on a t-shirt and is much more relaxed in attire, a little more hip with the scarves and the jackets, etc. Now he's got these shirts that button up to the chin and it throws me. I don't know if they're doing it purposefully because after everything that's happened with Moriarty, they're trying to demonstrate that he's a little (or a lot) more closed up, or if there's even a conscious reason for him dressing so tightly. It's just curiosity on my part... I'm interested in the details!  :)

 

I'd like to see the buttoned-up clothing as a restoration of Sherlock's pre-downward spiral phase. When we first meet Sherlock in the pilot, he is fresh from rehab and we eventually learn that the drugs took him away from his full faculties (which we we learn later, led to his "sloppy" work that led Mycroft to return to MI-6 to rectify things). 

 

As the seasons went on, his buttoned-up fashion style reflects this. Sherlock went from un-wound to re-wound, if you will. 

[Mom x 3]

Unless he gets intubated or given mouth by mouth in a minute or two, he'll be really most completely dead. If kept oxygenated until the hemlock wore off, he could survive - but Joan was only working his heart, not giving him oxygen.

 

Just for clarification, the recommendations for laypersons are no longer to give rescue breaths, as it is believe that just the act of giving chest compressions conveys "passive respirations," because it does force air in and out of the chest.  It has been found to have greater compliance with CPR, as people get all squicky with the thought of mouth-to-mouth.  Joan wouldn't necessary be a layperson, but she could still justify not giving rescue breaths in this scenario.

 

I looked up hemlock, and they gave it the highest toxicity rating, which means it's supertoxic and for a 150 pound human being you'd probably need less than 7 drops (less than 5mg/kg) to be lethal. But the book does say that first symptoms usually start in a half hour and "it takes several hours for death." So I'm wondering if they upped the dosage, maybe it would work faster, like it did on Andrew?

This is the classic "give the psychotic patient an injection of ativan and they go down within seconds."  It is merely for storytelling purposes.  The only thing that often works as frequently as portrayed on TV is a bullet to the head. 

[basil]

Just for clarification, the recommendations for laypersons are no longer to give rescue breaths, as it is believe that just the act of giving chest compressions conveys "passive respirations," because it does force air in and out of the chest.

Very interesting and thank you for that information. Obviously it's time for me to take a refresher class

 

This is the classic "give the psychotic patient an injection of ativan and they go down within seconds."  It is merely for storytelling purposes.  The only thing that often works as frequently as portrayed on TV is a bullet to the head.

Exactly. It's almost as much of a trope of "the car going over a cliff and bursting into flames", or a prolonged physical fight where antagonists walk away relatively uninjured. If Andrew had taken a single sip of coffee with a tiny bit of hemlock in it, it not only would have taken time to manifest, it might not have even killed him, much less within seconds.

 

But Sherlock/Hemlock? How could they resist? 

[sinkwriter]

 

This is the classic "give the psychotic patient an injection of ativan and they go down within seconds."  It is merely for storytelling purposes.  The only thing that often works as frequently as portrayed on TV is a bullet to the head.

 

So true. And "Sherlock/Hemlock" is wonderfully clever.

 

But there are some poisons that are said to be extremely fast-acting, so if they had let go of the need for Hemlock, there were realistic poisons that could do the job. In fact, back when I read that poison book for writery purposes, I jotted down the names of some poisons that seemed to be perfect for my villain to kill someone quickly with no chance of recovery. In fact, there was one that seemed to fit in almost every way: it's odorless, soluble in water, slightly bitter (but could be covered by other flavors), the solution for it could be stored in a refrigerator, its major symptom involves respiratory paralysis (yikes), the reaction time for it is immediate, and there are no antidote or treatments. The only other way it would be "perfect" would be if it was also non-traceable so that the villain could get away with the crime as well, but I think I chose that one because I wanted the murder to occur but some clue to be found eventually that would help the protagonist track the killer, maybe something to do with that refrigerator clue, kind of like the second Elementary episode where they don't find the evidence until they realize a seemingly innocuous bag of rice holds the missing cell phone.

 

Maybe the writers could say he was poisoned by something else, but the use of the name Hemlock as the episode title was just substituted as another name for Poison, for fun.

 

Very interesting and thank you for that information. Obviously it's time for me to take a refresher class

 

Me too! It's been years since the last time I took a CPR class and I've been learning here and there that the rules have changed. I should definitely take a refresher. So many new things I don't know.

Edited February 8, 2015 by sinkwriter

[possibilities]

I think it's interesting that while Sherlock's attire has become more buttoned, he seems to me to be much more emotionally accessible and unbuttoned than he was in the beginning.

[basil]

Maybe the writers could say he was poisoned by something else, but the use of the name Hemlock as the episode title was just substituted as another name for Poison, for fun.

 

 

According to the promo, Joan says Andrew drank from a coffee laced with hemlock. We've already had a title with "poison" in it. Cyanide would have made more sense - acute cyanide poisoning is far harder to treat but doesn't make as cool a title.

[sinkwriter]

 

I think it's interesting that while Sherlock's attire has become more buttoned, he seems to me to be much more emotionally accessible and unbuttoned than he was in the beginning.

 

Yes! That's what I'm seeing too. It's such an unusual contrast.

[Trey]

 

I was pissed with how they handled the bulk of the "Mother Load" files as all or nothing. Neither the wife nor Sherlock had to make an immediate decision. They could go through the files one by one and forgive any or all of each debt.

I didn't like the way they did it either.  I was under the impression that, for a debt to be forgiven, it had to be registered as such, not just having the papers shredded.  So all they did with the shredding was to leave the debt hanging over the debtor.  But I guess they did it that way to let us know that the wife was a good person and wasn't going to try to collect the  debts.

[sinkwriter]

 

So all they did with the shredding was to leave the debt hanging over the debtor.

 

That's what was weird to me, too. Because I do see that if they purchased the debt, and then shredded record of the debt, then the debt no longer exists. But you still need to send a note to all the credit agencies (TransUnion, Experian, etc.). Although I suppose if no one is pursuing the debt anymore, and the person in debt sends a note to the credit agencies saying this debt is gone/forgiven, and the agency follows up and finds the debt collection company no longer in existence, the agency might go ahead and update the records as a "closed" issue? Still... a lot of paperwork and a pain in the butt for those in debt. But if their debt is gone, what's a little extra paperwork? The relief would be worth it, I'd think. 

[johntfs]

I just assumed that Sherlock called one of his Irregulars and had them perform all the legal stuff offscreen at which point he shredded the records.

[johntfs]

I just rewatched the coffee bit:

• They are labeled correctly.
• There are no lids.
• The bumping woman is holding her hand up to her ear as if she's on a cell phone (excuse for bumping?) and looks a bit like Bitsie Tulloch.
• Joan accidentally pushes her cup towards Andrew and he takes a sip, declaring it to be skim milk (not his).
• Neither of them take another sip of either cup before he keels over.

So, the Hemlock poison was placed in the cup labeled Joan.

Oh, yes, I would too. I just meant that she/I would still fee horrible about it.

 

 

I can't imagine it was actually Bitsie.  Bitsie's in Portland doing Grimm and it's be unusual for her go to New York for a (currently) non-speaking part in a show on another network.

[basil]

I can't imagine it was actually Bitsie.  Bitsie's in Portland doing Grimm and it's [sic] be unusual for her go to New York for a (currently) non-speaking part in a show on another network.

You're probably right, but there's no reason it couldn't be her. Such a short scene could have been shot in Portland - or in NYC. Reuben Santiago Hudson used to fly from LA to NYC every weekend when he was on Castle. He only took the job because it was originally to be filmed (as the pilot was) where it was set, New York City.

 

Strange things happen in tv filming. I know of several actors who have had scenes together onscreen who have never even met.

[vesperholly]

he'll be really most completely dead

 

We thank you very sweetly for this hilarious reference.

 

Poor Andrew - the last thing he had to hear was Joan trying to break up with him.

 

I thought the episode was pretty tightly written and funny - excepting for the anvilicious "what's a debt collector?" I mean ...

 

Watson: He decided to spend some time in his *Homeland.*

 

Two shows for me to gaze upon his lovely visage!

Edited February 9, 2015 by vesperholly

[ElectricBoogaloo]

he'll be really most completely dead

Not just mostly dead?

[sinkwriter]

Most sinceeeeeeeerely dead.  ;)

[basil]

You know, I probably shouldn't have been upset when Watson was going to take the insurance job. While I haven't read the books, in the screen versions and the OTHER Sherlock show, it depicted Watson wanting to get away from Sherlock's constant neediness and live a "normal" life with a normal job and a spouse, only to realize those things drove Watson bonkers.

 

In the books, Sherlock is very far from needy. He and Watson become flatmates to save on money. Later, as they grow older and more successful, Watson marries and starts his own medical practice. Yes, his first wife dies, but he remarries and seems quite content with married life and his practice, though he also enjoys his adventures when Sherlock calls on him for assistance ("....and Watson! Bring your revolver!"). He also seems to enjoy chronicling said adventures. 

 

I also agree with others [that Andrew's] dad gave me the same weird vibe as the guy who pretended to be Sherlock's father earlier. He was just so overly accepting and perfect.

 

 

I definitely got the same vibe from the father, but I think it's just the way the actor played it. Andrew did seem a little uncomfortable, though. We shall see. I didn't get a weird vibe from Alastair (Rees) at all, though I never believed he was Sherlock's father for a minute.

 

We thank you very sweetly for this hilarious reference.

;) Just couldn't help myself.

[basil]

Not just mostly dead?

I don't think Andrew will be storming the castle, no.

 

I guess the way the show Sherlock first plays it, they do share a flat to save on money, but there's a distinct vibe that Sherlock is somewhat using it as an excuse to have the company. Then he becomes, as with Elementary, more dependent on having a partner, to the point he'll do anything to get Watson to come back to him. And in Sherlock, Watson has to go searching for some excitement after he got what he said he wanted. Some peace and quiet and to get away from Sherlock. The movie version also depicts the relationship the same way.

Perhaps they're all interpreting the works the same way, but it's quite parallel in all of the versions.

Except the original. The books. True canon. Holmes and Watson become flatmates to save money. Full stop. The needy Sherlock and adventure-seeking Watson are not canon. Those are modern variations.

[basil]

I was pissed with how they handled the bulk of the "Mother Load" files as all or nothing. Neither the wife nor Sherlock had to make an immediate decision. They could go through the files one by one and forgive any or all of each debt.

Literary license strikes again. It was more dramatic that way. Even if a debt is forgiven, it remains on the credit reports anyway, for something like 7 years. I do wonder what would happen in a case like that. Checks would go uncashed, phone calls and letters would go unanswered. If a debt collector refuses to pursue the debt, would it not simply drop off the credit report after 7 years? No one else would have the rights to collect them, I wouldn't think..

 

Except the original. The books. True canon. Holmes and Watson become flatmates to save money. Full stop. The needy Sherlock and adventure-seeking Watson are not canon. Those are modern variations.

 

I know. That's why I said that I hadn't read the books, but every variation I've seen has gone this route, so it seems it's their interpretation.

Apologies, I was just providing clarification. ;)  Since you said you hadn't read the books, I didn't know if you were aware of that. It also isn't true of the Rathbone movies and many other iterations, like the Jeremy Brett version. Frankly, I find a needy Holmes a bit annoying), as I did the unbelievably stupid Watson of the Rathbone movies. I find Sherlock's Sherlock insufferable.

[Texasmom1970]

I am glad to see both Sherlock and Watson were adequately sexed in this episode. Great episode, didn't feel or miss Kitty.

Sherlock must have really missed Joan bringing her a delicious looking breakfast and couture. Instead of waking her with a bugle call. Oh how I love Clyde! Does anyone know does he have a Twitter account like Bear from "Person of Interest?" If not he needs one right away.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Texasmom1970

[basil]

I'm thinking that "back in the day" it probably wasn't manly for one man to admit his emotional dependence on another.

 

It actually was fairly common. Men were demonstrably more physically affectionate in general around the time Sherlock was created. (granted, particularly in America. Lincoln sent what many would consider love letters to a close male friend of his). They even often shared a bed.

 

 

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/07/29/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/

 

The consistent references in Sherlock about them being a couple, with Sherlock never correcting anyone, always amuses me.

 

 

 

I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. I find the idea of Holmes and Watson as a gay couple being played for laughs somewhat offensive. I much prefer the respectful attitude that Elementary has towards gay/trans characters.

 

I am with you regarding the handful of very vocal Sherlock fans that rag on Elementary. Moffat did not create Holmes. They are two completely different shows.

 

Sherlock must have really missed Joan bringing her a delicious looking breakfast and couture.

 

 

 

I like in particular that Watson is so pleasantly surprised that Sherlock chose her clothing well. He's been paying attention to something he normally would not care about. It was a very sweet moment.

 

 

eta for Texasmom: https://twitter.com/clydetheturtle

Edited February 10, 2015 by basil

[basil]

I don't see it just played for laughs [bolding mine]. I see it that they are so close, people think they are a couple, and Sherlock doesn't care people think that. I see that as being respectful. Like he's not getting all offended by it and almost appreciates the thought. I see it almost that Sherlock feels he's the one married to Watson.

 

 

Well, your milage definitely varies. We are in complete disagreement. As even you say, it is at least partly played for laughs. The way I see it, Sherlock's Sherlock definitely doesn't care (for all we know, he might be gay), but  he thinks it's funny that it bothers John - he even taunts John over it. which is not at all (imo) respectful. In fact, it makes John angry, which implies (to me) that he thinks there's something wrong with it. Besides, it's a played out joke. 

 

In any case, this really isn't the place to discuss it. If you'd care to create an Elementary vs Sherlock thread if the mods would find that appropriate, we could discuss it further, but really, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.