S03.E12: Uprising

[SmallScreenDiva]

I find it interesting that Felicity gets so much shade after this episode for being angry at Oliver for joining up with Malcolm Merlyn and no one ever comments that Diggle holds the same views as she does.  We need a look at the Oliver/Diggle bromance now that Oliver has thrown his stakes in with Malcolm.

 

Yes, please! I'd love to hear what Diggle has to say about Oliver's decision. I think we got a little bit of that reaction when the camera panned to both Diggle and Roy side-eyeing Oliver after Felicity left (or that may have been just a "Damn, man, you haven't been here 2 minutes and you already pissed her off."). I'm crossing my fingers we get a scene with Oliver and Diggle talking about Merlyn in the next episode.

 

I agree with those above who said the show missed a huge emotional moment when it didn't show Digg and Felicity's reaction to Oliver's arrival. I loved the hug, but it did feel a bit too tame. As were Diggle's and Roy's reactions. Hand shakes? Really?

 

But then again, Oliver's whole demeanor was rather subdued when he entered the foundry. That's one of the things that struck me during rewatch. I think he fully expected opposition to his plan to join up with Merlyn. Even the way that scene was blocked with him standing on the far right side of the frame, while Felicity, Diggle and Roy were kinda grouped on the other side set up the conflict, IMO. But I don't think he anticipated the full extent of Felicity's reaction.

[Guest]

I've been trying to logic Oliver's decision to have Malcolm train him and I can't. If Malcolm himself didn't think he could beat Ra's in a duel, why would he think he can give Oliver the skills to do so?! Ugh, this is all so dumb. 

 

 

Yes, please! I'd love to hear what Diggle has to say about Oliver's decision. I think we got a little bit of that reaction when the camera panned to both Diggle and Roy side-eyeing Oliver after Felicity left (or that may have been just a "Damn, man, you haven't been here 2 minutes and you already pissed her off."). I'm crossing my fingers we get a scene with Oliver and Diggle talking about Merlyn in the next episode.

 

I agree with those above who said the show missed a huge emotional moment when it didn't show Digg and Felicity's reaction to Oliver's arrival. I loved the hug, but it did feel a bit too tame. As were Diggle's and Roy's reactions. Hand shakes? Really?

 

But then again, Oliver's whole demeanor was rather subdued when he entered the foundry. That's one of the things that struck me during rewatch. I think he fully expected opposition to his plan to join up with Merlyn. Even the way that scene was blocked with him standing on the far right side of the frame, while Felicity, Diggle and Roy were kinda grouped on the other side set up the conflict, IMO. But I don't think he anticipated the full extent of Felicity's reaction.

 

I agree, I thought Oliver's return to the foundry was completely underwhelming and the hand shakes were lame. There was no sense of urgency to the scene either, it was just 'we thought you died, oh well, shrug.' They totally missed the emotional beat there. The hug with Felicity was nice but even that was lacking in something. I know there was a reason for that but still. That whole scene deserved more. Oliver deserved more, until he had to go and mess everything up. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

I was re-reading that interview with Andrew Kreisberg in which he says they break the stories on Arrow by asking what's the worst thing that can happen to the characters. But there was another quote, that I think ties to the lack of emotional payoff/catharsis in Oliver coming back and reuniting with the team. From the interview:

 

That said, tonally, The Flash and Arrow are still two very different animals. Kreisberg recalled an upcoming scene on The Flash where Barry and Caitlin end up singing karaoke at a bar. "Jake Coburn, one of the Arrow co-EPs, came by, and I was watching [that scene], and he was like, 'Yeah, scenes like this are where Arrow goes to die.' [Laughs] Like characters going out for a drink or going out for fun. Whenever we try that on Arrow, it never works. We either cut it or, unfortunately, it airs. [Laughs] But it's fun with The Flash. You really can have these 'After work, everybody goes out and has a drink and a fun night.'"

 

Source: http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/02/the-flash-arrow-lead-brandon-routh-is-going-to-get-some-help-with-his-atom-suit

 

I think this episode in particular is one of the best examples of the writers depriving the Arrow characters of ordinary moments on purpose. Oliver being alive should have been a happy moment, but it's not because it's been decided that these characters cannot get a break. And I think the breakneck speed in the pacing is tied to it too: if the drama stops even for a second, then these characters might be allowed a little reprieve from all the angst, and that cannot happen because that's Flash, not Arrow.

 

Plus, Arrow lacks the cynicism of a 'life sucks and then you die' kind of narrative. The tone isn't that. The tone is life sucks and it will always suck and we'll grow old in the suckitude.

 

But the problem with devoiding a narrative of catharsis is you take it away from the audience too. And that's a super dumb thing to do to your viewers.

Edited February 6, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I've been trying to logic Oliver's decision to have Malcolm train him and I can't. If Malcolm himself didn't think he could beat Ra's in a duel, why would he think he can give Oliver the skills to do so?! Ugh, this is all so dumb. 

I've read people saying that it's only the student who knows the tricks of the master so that he can defeat him.

 

Yeah, I didn't buy it either.  It makes more sense to me that someone with different tricks would be able to do better.  Go find someone else to train you, Oliver.

 

I forgot to say earlier how much it amused me that Ted Grant didn't think she was good enough yet to be a vigilante either.

Edited February 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I've read people saying that it's only the student who knows the tricks of the master so that he can defeat him.

 

Well, to be fair, that's the general sentiment they kept knocking us over the head with in the show. But point, it is stupid. And Malcolm wasn't even Ra's student, so it's doubly stupid. 

[KirkB]

It's even more stupid than that, actually. If you want to beat the head of the LoA, you don't get training from someone who was taught by the LoA! Malcolm learned to fight either from Ra's. or those Ra's taught. All he can teach Oliver, essentially, is what Ra's taught him. Beating the teacher with his own teaching doesn't work unless you are already better than him, and Oliver has proven he isn't.

[InsertWordHere]

Well, to be fair, that's the general sentiment they kept knocking us over the head with in the show. But point, it is stupid. And Malcolm wasn't even Ra's student, so it's doubly stupid. 

Not to mention that Oliver defeated Malcolm (it counts as a defeat in my book, the same way Ra's defeated Oliver in The Climb even though Oliver survived) and Oliver was never his student. He didn't need any tricks or secret knowledge of Malcolm, unless putting an arrow through himself in order to stab Malcolm counts as a trick. 

 

I was also confused by Tatsu's belief that Maseo would be the best choice in that regard. Didn't Maseo have some fairly impressive sword skills before joining the League? Or is my timeline wrong and Maseo was in the League before working with Oliver and Amanda Waller? Although he's competent and seems to have temporarily pulled one over on Ra's, I haven't seen any evidence that Maseo got some huge skill boost from training with him or that he's privy to some sort of secret weakness of Ra's. He already seemed pretty bad ass in Hong Kong. I still think Tatsu is Oliver's best choice here if we're talking straight up skill and not defeat by three/four generations of student/master (Seriously, couldn't any random member of the League have been trained by someone who was trained by Ra's?) insider knowledge. I hope she decides to rejoin civilization soon.  

[statsgirl]

Tatsu may have had an ulterior motive in pushing Oliver to Maseo in that she wanted Maseo to rejoin the world and her.  Still, a much better alternative than Malcolm.

 

Not to mention that Oliver defeated Malcolm (it counts as a defeat in my book, the same way Ra's defeated Oliver in The Climb even though Oliver survived) and Oliver was never his student. He didn't need any tricks or secret knowledge of Malcolm, unless putting an arrow through himself in order to stab Malcolm counts as a trick.

Exactly!  Oliver beat Malcolm by out-thinking him (killing Malcolm with an arrow through his own body), and he beat mirakuru'd Slade by out-thinking him too.  Why would he believe that the only way to defeat Ra's is to copy his techniques?

 

I get very annoyed when Oliver gets this stupid.

Edited February 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

The only thing I can think of that makes a little bit of sense is Oliver banking on Malcolm teaching him to fight dirty. If he thinks Malcolm knows of some weakness in Ra's.

But then, dirty fighting for real could be solved by one of two phone calls [ARGUS has missiles, Barry Allen has a super sonic punch], so I got nothing.

[AudienceofOne]

When did we start calling this show 'whelming'? And who came up with it? Because that's just... perfect.

Stay whelming.

 

Since every part of the stupid has been covered already, I'll just add this: why did we waste half this episode on a Malcolm flashback to events we already knew about. There was absolutely nothing new in the flashbacks except that he murdered the wrong guy and they could have told us that.

[Actionmage]

Stay whelming, Arrow.

 

Courtesy of dancingnancy from Page 1 of this episode thread!

[GirlWednesday]

I feel like this episode wasted all the important character beats.

Hey writers- don't care about Ted grant, should have used those precious seconds as a proper reunion between team arrow. It was all played so casual.

Too casual for my liking.

Malcolm never showed remorse about the man he became but suddenly we care he killed the wrong person. What about all the people he has killed after. Pfft. I love me some JB but this shite is cray cray.

Was I supposed to feel something when oliver was giving his speech to the crowd and Laurel was hiding and looking all ... Not sure what look she was going for.. Relief, admiration, envy, want for an old lover...Pfft.

Digg. He is a solider, natural born leader and strategist. I sort of understood why he was in the lair, telling arsenal And fauxnary what to do while Felicity had quit last episodes. But she was there in the lair, watching everyone's back so why wasnt he leading the charge in the fight? What a waste.

Felicity was a BAMF sitting in the chair, throwing shade at Merlin. But the suspension of belief required of the audience that IT girl did not notice the camera AT EYE LEVEL and the likelihood of her sweeping for third party signals, bugs etc in the lair since everyone and their dog knows where they are is just stupid.

Sara.. Oh yeah she's still dead. Pity

Oliver has a habit of taking advice quite literally. He took Tatsu's advice about student and teacher literally and thought only of Merlin. NYSSA and Masau are also students and would have made for a much more compelling story. Why are the writers always so obvious?

As frustrating as this episode was, I sort of enjoyed it if I stopped thinking about everything and just watched my fave characters get shit done.

Edited February 7, 2015 by GirlWednesday

[dtissagirl]

Haha, it's my favorite running gag from Young Justice. Dick Grayson says some variation of "stay whelmed" in every other episode. :)

[strikera0]

I find it interesting that Felicity gets so much shade after this episode for being angry at Oliver for joining up with Malcolm Merlyn and no one ever comments that Diggle holds the same views as she does.  We need a look at the Oliver/Diggle bromance now that Oliver has thrown his stakes in with Malcolm.

 

Why should fans criticize Diggle? Diggle didn't blow up at Oliver a mere 30 seconds after he set foot in the Arrow cave. And while we know that Diggle shares Felicity's opinion about Malcolm, we have no way of knowing how he feels about Oliver working with him because Diggle didn't get to say a thing. Who knows, maybe Diggle isn't actually 100% opposed to it after Oliver explained himself?

[statsgirl]

Diggle had already said that working with Merlyn was the first step to becoming him, the end didn't justify the means.

 

Why should fans criticize Diggle? Diggle didn't blow up at Oliver a mere 30 seconds after he set foot in the Arrow cave.

That was on Oliver.    He spent more time talking to Diggle and Roy than he did to Felicity when he got back  (and had spent far more time with Thea and Malcolm).  And then he immediately dropped the Merlyn bomb, knowing that Felicity and Diggle would be mightily opposed.  He could have said "I'm working on that" or "I have an idea" rather than "Malcolm and I are working on that."

 

The way Oliver has jerked Felicity around this whole season (never letting her get close to him, telling her he loved her and immediately walking away from her every time),  he deserved what he got.  Felicity, who tried to keep the honor of Oliver alive even when she thought he had died and dreamed quiet dreams that he would come back and be with her, didn't.

[GirlWednesday]

I didn't think too much of Felicity telling oliver she was disappointed for choosing to involve himself with Merlin, 60 seconds after reunion. Team arrow/lair, one can imagine is a high octane work environment. Everyone's decisions impacts lives, not just them but others, innocents, etc.

The trust has already been earned amongst the three that it shouldn't matter when Felicity charged at oliver for being a disappointment. 2.5yrs ago, oliver was actively killing men like Merlin. To now become his partner ... Is a disgusting choice, knowing what he Did and why. I'm on Felicity's side. Digg always steps back before making a move. He is equally invested in Oliver's mission and soul as Felicity but Felicity is a lot more invested in olivers heart. I thought that last scene was the only scene that made real sense.

[statsgirl]

When Diggle agreed to join Oliver in season 1 he said it was because war tears pieces off you and he was going to be there to make sure that Oliver stayed as whole and healthy emotionally as he could. 

 

Diggle's already said that it would be wrong for them to join forces with Malcolm Merlyn.  If Diggle is written in character, I can't imagine he would be in favor of what Oliver's doing.

[BkWurm1]

Haha, it's my favorite running gag from Young Justice. Dick Grayson says some variation of "stay whelmed" in every other episode. :)

Makes me smile every time I read it used somewhere.  Young Justice is an incredibly underappreciated series.  The first season just built and built and the second season twists just kept coming.  Talk about leaving me wanting more. 

 

When I look back at all the parts to this episode, I remember a lot of important stuff happening but somehow the editing and flow just sucked all the excitement from what should have been big celebratory moments.  Rewatching helps a lot but mostly because the second time around you know to keep your expectations lower.  I was really looking for a WOW or a fist pump moment or at the very least a moment of deep joy but really the only thing that came close was when Diggle laid the facts down on Merlyn.  Every other moment, I would just start to feel something and the episode would shut it down.  Except for the ongoing angst, that they let breath all the time it wants. 

[Shanna]

Haha, it's my favorite running gag from Young Justice. Dick Grayson says some variation of "stay whelmed" in every other episode. :)

It's also a joke from ten things I hate about you. Can you ever just be whelmed? I think you can in Europe. Hee.

[looptab]

 

Laurel wants to team up with Malcolm. Why? " Because I'm actually paying attention!"

That line rubbed me the wrong way too, but then upon rewatching I realized it was a callback to something Dig said to Laurel earlier, when he suggests letting MM deal with Brick, she says "That's dark" and he goes something like "If you didn't think it was dark you haven't been paying attention".

 

So that was Laurel trying to be quippy/demonstrating she is a good girl who can learn. Too bad KC's delivery made it sound like she was telling everyone around her that they were a bunch of dumbasses.:/

[tv echo]

That was on Oliver.    He spent more time talking to Diggle and Roy than he did to Felicity when he got back  (and had spent far more time with Thea and Malcolm).  And then he immediately dropped the Merlyn bomb, knowing that Felicity and Diggle would be mightily opposed.  He could have said "I'm working on that" or "I have an idea" rather than "Malcolm and I are working on that."

Before this episode aired, MG spoiled that while Felicity was going to be "mad as hell', Oliver was going to be "oops".  I think Oliver's 'oops' moment was the way he broke the news to his team about Malcolm.  Saying "Malcolm and I are working on that" sounds like they're buddies.  I understand that he's basically continuing a conversation he started at Thea's loft.  But Team Arrow are coming in the middle of that conversation and don't have the context.  Instead, Oliver should've said something like "Ra's is going to be coming for me.  I'm going to need Malcolm's help to defeat him.  I don't have any other choice."

Edited February 7, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Someone on Tumblr pointed out that the Diggle/Malcolm and the Felicity/Oliver conversation took place outside of Verdant in the alley. I wonder if they set up that parallel on purpose. Diggle/Felicity and Malcolm/Oliver.

 

BTW: I loved that Diggle brought up Thea and Sara specifically. Diggle named his daughter after a woman Malcolm killed. Oliver is aligning himself with that man. So Stupid

[Menrva]

It's also a joke from ten things I hate about you. Can you ever just be whelmed? I think you can in Europe. Hee.

I loved that movie. Plus, my other favorite line from that movie, (and I can't remember it exactly right, sorry):

"She's from Planet Look At Me! Look At Me!"

I think everyone knows who I'm referring to…

 

I feel like everyone is looking to Ra's as the villain when it's pretty clear to me that the bad guy who needs to be taken out is Malcolm. Oliver and Ra's should work together to kill Malcolm. He's the loose cannon here.

I can't figure out what the writers' plan is with Malcolm. He doesn't make any sense. Even if they're trying to portray Malcolm as insane, there's no clear explanation for his actions. Even crazy people have their own warped logic and I'm just not seeing it here. It's just lazy plotting and writing. Is Merlyn trying to make Thea tougher? Is he trying to destroy Oliver by destroying what family he has left? Is he trying to take down Ra's al Ghul and assume control of the LOA? I felt this way with Slade's story last year too.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Menrva

[Ang]

MG has already indicated that any MM redemption that happens will be short lived, so as long as they don't have Team Arrow being blindsided by the obviously inevitable betrayal, it might work. D and F are in the right to be wary and pissed, and I think The Line was actually an interestingly insightful way for Felicity to point out that being loved by Oliver wasn't a healthy, positive thing (inuding for Oliver, I think).

Can I just say how little the Arrow's speech at the fight works for me? I haaaaaaate it. The moment is completely unearned and the whole thing makes as much sense as, well, Oliver making his way from Starling City from a...remote Himalayan mountainside?...and, likewise, back in a matter of minutes instead of days. And I get where they were going with the whole "arrow in the foreground, hopeful look in the background" thing, but did I just spend too long looking at my knitting so that I missed the part where we saw Oliver's presence making an actual difference? And how exactly does Oliver go from barely being able to climb into the back of a truck, to shooting arrows and swinging triumphantly from the top of a van to a rooftop, to falling backwards and cringing mightily in response to a hug?

I didn't hate the episode while I was watching it, except for that stupid speech scene, but I think maybe it was poorly directed? The big fight looked like what it was - a handful of extras on a large lot - and most of the scenes that could have been rife with emotion lacked impact (with the exception of Diggle w/Malcolm, Queen Felicity w/Malcolm, and Felicity's speech/SA's kicked puppy dog eyes).

[kismet]

And the way Felicity hesitates before she continues with "the woman you love" breaks my heart.

Both of those... I know others have mentioned it too. But the sequencing of erb's step back nuh huh & sa response was just so emotionally wrenching considering how space has been used before w/ them. It says a lot that he tried to close the space, she declined and he respected. Sorta spoke a lot without any words. I also wonder what he might have said if she had allowed him closer. Of course, I totally respect her & admire that she made him keep a distance. It was just so heart breaking. I give most the props to ERB & SA cuz they just nailed that scene.

[tv echo]

MG has already indicated that any MM redemption that happens will be short lived, so as long as they don't have Team Arrow being blindsided by the obviously inevitable betrayal, it might work. D and F are in the right to be wary and pissed, and I think The Line was actually an interestingly insightful way for Felicity to point out that being loved by Oliver wasn't a healthy, positive thing (inuding for Oliver, I think).

 

"Ah, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

(Wash, Firefly/Serenity)

[kismet]

And the funny thing is that you could tell Diggle agreed with Felicity. Oliver's sitting there talking about how he and Malcolm are going to figure things out and Digg's looking at him like, "this fucking guy..."

I think one of the biggest problems is that Oliver made felicity's reaction seem about them, he's the one that mentioned "about us" not her. So there for people are taking her reaction as romantic angst when really her reaction is less about them and more about him. If he had never mentioned "us" I think she might have gotten a little bit more of a pass. But yeah, misogyny & chauvinism does run strong in some commenters/reviewers, which is sad. I also think with Roy in foundry scene it was probably hard for diggle to make as many truth smack downs as he used to, the chemistry is different now that there are more than just the core 3.

[statsgirl]

The Arrow speech would have come better in an episode where he, you know, actually did something in the fight other than try to save Malcolm's soul.

 

From The Emancipation of Felicity Smoak review (a great analysis of the power differentials in the lair and a fun read)

 

 

As for Felicity, with Oliver’s reappearance she is left to dwell on the fact that he left her behind without any voice in their relationship. He treated her as a child, not as an equal partner.

---

Felicity storms out of the foundry in disgust. Oliver follows her ready to make what likely amounts to him as a noble choice to break her heart, planning to tell her once again that he must sacrifice his feelings for her in a quest to save his sister.

You just know that with Felicity rejecting him, Oliver is going to see it confirming that Tatsu was right that he had to sacrifice the thing he values, and will double down on his decision to work with Malcolm.

 

It's a pity that so many people see this as a romantic tiff rather than an "Oliver is being an idiot again" thing.  I understand why the ended the episode where they did, on a high dramatic note, but we really  need Diggle to voice his opinion.

 

I find it interesting that in this very modern TV show, Oliver is following the medieval courtly love rules, loving his lady purely and from afar.  Poor Felicity, Oliver's about 1200 years away from where she is.

[apinknightmare]

I think that they're writing Oliver's approach to a physical relationship with Felicity very chaste and non-Oliver to show that it's truly something different for him, not some lust-filled roll in the hay, like...he wants to do things differently with her than he's done them with his previous girlfriends because (IMO) this one is different and means more. He can take her off her virginal pedestal and put her up against the wall soon though. Getting dirty with it doesn't mean you love her less, dude.

Also, I too think it's a shame that conversation they had is being seen in a romantic light, like Felicity's just some shrew harping on him because a relationship isn't the first thing on his mind when he comes back from the dead. Oliver assumed it, and while Felicity didn't directly deny it, the 'the last thing you told me was that you loved me and now look what you're doing to two women you allegedly love. A relationship? I don't even know who you are, dude.' speaks pretty loudly to me about what she was really upset about, and it WAS him teaming with Malcom (even though he tried to deflect that anger like the beautiful idiot he is, bless).

[statsgirl]

You could say that Felicity also put Oliver on a pedestal and it is that Oliver whose memory she was trying to honor that month he was gone.  “I can’t think of a world or a universe or a plane of existence where Oliver would agree to any of this.”

 

Then he came back and knocked himself off.

Edited February 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

It's a pity that so many people see this as a romantic tiff rather than an "Oliver is being an idiot again" thing.  I understand why the ended the episode where they did, on a high dramatic note, but we really  need Diggle to voice his opinion.

 

I find it interesting that in this very modern TV show, Oliver is following the medieval courtly love rules, loving his lady purely and from afar.  Poor Felicity, Oliver's about 1200 years away from where she is.

What struck me the most about that scene is Felicity tells Oliver she's pissed about Merlyn, and HE IS THE DUMBASS who goes "that's not why you're upset". He's the one who makes it about their relationship woes. I guess because he'll preemptively self-sabotage any chance they have, but also because he knows Felicity well enough to know she'll take the bait. And she did. I don't think he expected that much truth tea, but I'm pretty convinced he went after her so *she* could be the one to give up on him. Thus proving Tatsu right. Thus justifying his willingness to be the mission first.

It's still puerile sillycakes storytelling, but it's also the kind of thing I expect from an emotionally stunted dumbass. You're lucky you're pretty, Oliver.

[Ang]

"Ah, curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

(Wash, Firefly/Serenity)

Aw, Wash!

[statsgirl]

When Sin first saw the Black Canary and went up to speak to her, BC just brushed by her, ignoring her.  I assumed it was because Laurel didn't know Sin but now I've remembered that it was Sin, along with Thea and Roy, who took her friend's case to Laurel to look into in connection with Blood's blood drive. What was that about?

 

I think that they're writing Oliver's approach to a physical relationship with Felicity very chaste and non-Oliver to show that it's truly something different for him, not some lust-filled roll in the hay, like...he wants to do things differently with her than he's done them with his previous girlfriends because (IMO) this one is different and means more.
 

I'm sure that's what there doing. But there is a difference between jumping into bed with the girl on the second date, as he did with Helena, and a chaste kiss on the forehead as he's walking away.  Between that and teaming up with Malcolm, no wonder Felicity believes he doesn't love her.

[apinknightmare]

When Sin first saw the Black Canary and went up to speak to her, BC just brushed by her, ignoring her.  I assumed it was because Laurel didn't know Sin but now I've remembered that it was Sin, along with Thea and Roy, who took her friend's case to Laurel to look into in connection with Blood's blood drive. What was that about?

 

I'm sure that's what there doing. But there is a difference between jumping into bed with the girl on the second date, as he did with Helena, and a chaste kiss on the forehead as he's walking away.  Between that and teaming up with Malcolm, no wonder Felicity believes he doesn't love her.

 

I don't think Laurel knows that Sara was close to Sin though. 

 

And yeah, there is a difference. I get why Felicity might have thought he didn't love her at one point, but I also get why he's behaving the way he is towards her physically. And I think she knows he loves her now - she just doesn't think that love is worth much, because he'll sacrifice anything for his mission.

Edited February 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

He'll even sacrifice the people he loves to it.  He loved Sara, but he's okay teaming up with the guy who orchestrated her murder.  He loves Thea, but he's teaming up with the guy who brainwashed her and put her in harm's way and Oliver's still not telling Thea so that she can protect herself from the BSC guy she thinks is protecting her.  He tells Felicity he loves her but he won't give her any say in their relationship or in what he expects of her much less what she expects of him.

 

So if that's what Oliver's "love" is, Felicity is probably thinking she doesn't want any of it right now.

[kismet]

Man, I hope that if the people I love ever think that I'm dead for a month, I'll get more than just hugs when I return to the Land of the Living. The Team Arrow reunion scene was such a non-event that it played more like Oliver returning from a business trip or something.  I was expecting more and it was just meh. 

Isn't it a Queen tradition to have a party? Maybe its coming next week. Maybe that's

why Laurel is getting the Vertigo next episide

? Just kidding... but really you would have thought they would have done something a little more than pull out his skewer sword for a little show & tell? At least bring the DJ back, maybe

thats why they're letting Thea in on the secret... they need someone to help them on their jams.

. But then again Oliver really did kinda zoom past the reunion scene himself, he was all business with his big Malcolm news overshadowing everything. At least they could have broken out the vodka :)

Edited February 8, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't think Oliver really wanted much of a reunion. Seemed like he was ready to get down to business.

[kismet]

Love that they brought back Sin & Ted Grant for one episode, just to remind us they exist... so that if their new projects don't succeed Arrow can always bring them back.

I do think KC & the writers are doing the best they can w/ their accelerated BC plot, but I love that Ted Grant called her out and then Sin burst her little truth bubble. It was fun & karmic in a way.

 

But I would have to say my fav silly scene involving her came during the rumble. Which as someone on twitter remarked, it did sorta feel like West Side Story and at any moment in time they would all break down out into song & fingersnapping. Imagine how JB would have shined in those scenes. But honestly, plz tell me I didn't imagine. But I swear at the start of the rumble, after getting a sprint in, somebody literally picks up Laurel and carries her away. Cuz I swear I saw it and it was hysterical!

[BkWurm1]

I didn't hate the episode while I was watching it, except for that stupid speech scene, but I think maybe it was poorly directed? The big fight looked like what it was - a handful of extras on a large lot - and most of the scenes that could have been rife with emotion lacked impact (with the exception of Diggle w/Malcolm, Queen Felicity w/Malcolm, and Felicity's speech/SA's kicked puppy dog eyes).

 

I don't know who to blame, the director, the editors, the writers or the producers.  I tend to think it's whoever broke the scenes and decided Oliver shows up but no one gets to interact with him until waaay later which automatically pulls a lot of the emotion out of the moment.  The director might have wanted to extend the moment between Oliver's return to the lair and when he drops his Malcolm bomb, but how?  They can only film what's written.  They might have had some more reactions shots that could have upped the emotion that weren't used and in that case, I'd put some blame on the editor, but I assume the editor was following the script too, so we're back to the writers, but the writers are following a general breakdown of the scenes so it might have been out of their hands. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Shanna]

Yeah, I don't think Oliver really wanted much of a reunion. Seemed like he was ready to get down to business.

That's how it seemed to me. He allowed a hug, but he went everywhere else in town before he went to his team, and got himself on tv so they knew he was alive rather than just calling or something, and then he put up that Malcolm thing. Which he had to know would bring down the mood.

[tv echo]

There's been a question floating around as to why Oliver doesn't ask Barry Allen (instead of Malcolm) for help in defeating Ra's.  While I can kinda understand why he didn't ask Barry for help when he went off to duel Ra's on the mountaintop the first time, I'm having more trouble understanding why he doesn't ask him for help this time (now that he's so desperate).  So I've been mulling the possibilities:

 

1.  Oliver is too proud to ask Barry for help.
2.  Oliver wants to keep Barry out of it to protect him from being targeted by Ra's and the LOA.
3.  Oliver has to defeat Ra's in honorable one-on-one combat by LOA rules, or else the rest of the League will come after him and his family.

 

First, if Oliver is so desperate that he has to resort to asking Malcolm for help, then he should be willing to put aside his pride.  Second, the Flash has already been outed due to his very public appearance in a recent Flash episode and due to Iris' internet blog about the Flash, so the LOA should already know about the Flash (unless they're the most clueless group on the planet).  Plus, Oliver's desperate, right?  Third, Barry is so fast now that he can zip into the duel, trip Ra's at a crucial moment, and zip out again without anyone ever seeing him (or even seeing a red streak), as evidenced by recent Flash episodes.  Sure, it's cheating and dishonorable.  But Oliver now seems willing to compromise his principles and be an "end justifies the means' guy.  And is it any more dishonorable than working with a mass murderer who killed his parents, his best friend, his ex-lover and hundreds of Glades citizens?  By aligning with Malcolm, Oliver is arguably dishonoring the memory of his parents, Tommy and Sara (not to mention failing to protect his sister).

Edited February 8, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

How about option 4, "this is my fight" beats chest and grunts.

[KirkB]

Half (or more) of the Arrow's problems at any one time could be solved by Barry. It's for that very reason I bet the EP's, on some level, regret doing the crossover in the first place. We already knew Flash and Arrow existed in the same universe but Caitlin calling Barry from Starling and Barry showing up in the nick of time created a large number of plot induced DUH! opportunities for future episodes. In story, I got nothing.

 

As for Laurel not responded to Sin the first time, between the noise of the fight and Roy's motorcycle I got the impression she just didn't see or hear her. Maybe she was actively ignoring the girl because she didn't recognize or remember her, but it was strange enough for Sin to take notice. I'd think she also might have realized Sara seemed to have grown a few inches too.

[Delphi]

Haha, it's my favorite running gag from Young Justice. Dick Grayson says some variation of "stay whelmed" in every other episode. :)

I just rewatched the pilot this morning, never not funny.

"The boy wonder...I'm underwhelmed."

"Why isn't anyone just whelmed?!"

[statsgirl]

 

Yeah, I don't think Oliver really wanted much of a reunion. Seemed like he was ready to get down to business.

That's how it seemed to me. He allowed a hug, but he went everywhere else in town before he went to his team, and got himself on tv so they knew he was alive rather than just calling or something, and then he put up that Malcolm thing. Which he had to know would bring down the mood.

I wonder if we are supposed to take that as Oliver wanting to be The Arrow rather than Oliver Queen.  He gets the business done first and then he brushed through the messy emotional stuff.  Even his comments to Diggle and Roy were about how they kept the city together in his absence, not about being glad to be back in the lair with them again.

 

If that's the case, I don't feel sorry for him with the sword through the heart he got from Felicity. He was already dissociating that organ from his life.

[BkWurm1]

I just rewatched the pilot this morning, never not funny.

"The boy wonder...I'm underwhelmed."

"Why isn't anyone just whelmed?!"

Fun fact, turns out you can be just whelmed.

 

Definition of WHELM

transitive verb

1

:  to turn (as a dish or vessel) upside down usually to cover something :  cover or engulf completely with usually disastrous effect

2

:  to overcome in thought or feeling :  overwhelm <whelmed with a rush of joy — G. A. Wagner>

intransitive verb

 

3

:  to pass or go over something so as to bury or submerge it

Origin of WHELM

Middle English

First Known Use: 14th century

 

Related to WHELM

Synonyms: crush, devastate, floor, grind (down), oppress, overcome, overmaster, overpower, prostrate, snow under, swamp, overwhelm

 

[+]more

[benteen]

You know, if the people of the Glades want to get rich they should consider suing the city for abandoning them to a bunch of criminals.  Seriously, they refused to allow the police to help them and the state is just as responsible for its own non-action.  That entire storyline was ridiculous.  At least there was a reason for it in The Dark Knight Returns.

[calliope1975]

I think these writers work backwards (I'm pretty sure someone here has brought this up before.) They wanted the cool TDKR citizens rising up scene. Then they have to work backwards to see how they get to that point except it doesn't really make sense in this story's context. So you have the mayor conceding control to Brick which would never happen ever ever. Waller conceding then turning around and nuking the Glades? Sure, I'd believe that. But not some random mayor who would call in the National Guard, etc. 

 

Too much of the story this year seems like it's written this way. I've written like this where I have a scene or ending in mind and then have to find a way to get there. It's really difficult and requires so much rewriting over and over and these guys don't have enough time to do that. 

[Danny Franks]

Fun fact, turns out you can be just whelmed.

 

Definition of WHELM

transitive verb

1

:  to turn (as a dish or vessel) upside down usually to cover something :  cover or engulf completely with usually disastrous effect

2

:  to overcome in thought or feeling :  overwhelm <whelmed with a rush of joy — G. A. Wagner>

intransitive verb

 

3

:  to pass or go over something so as to bury or submerge it

Origin of WHELM

Middle English

First Known Use: 14th century

 

Related to WHELM

Synonyms: crush, devastate, floor, grind (down), oppress, overcome, overmaster, overpower, prostrate, snow under, swamp, overwhelm

 

[+]more

 

That's only in Europe, though.

 

As for Oliver not asking Barry for help, the real reason is quite simple. The writers don't want him too, because that would derail too much of their morally compromising angst shit. Just goes to show how genuinely half-arsed it all is. Set up a shared universe, but don't have the actual commitment to honouring that, so just ignore it whenever it doesn't suit.

[benteen]

I think these writers work backwards (I'm pretty sure someone here has brought this up before.) They wanted the cool TDKR citizens rising up scene. Then they have to work backwards to see how they get to that point except it doesn't really make sense in this story's context. So you have the mayor conceding control to Brick which would never happen ever ever. Waller conceding then turning around and nuking the Glades? Sure, I'd believe that. But not some random mayor who would call in the National Guard, etc. 

 

Too much of the story this year seems like it's written this way. I've written like this where I have a scene or ending in mind and then have to find a way to get there. It's really difficult and requires so much rewriting over and over and these guys don't have enough time to do that. 

 

The Governor would have also overruled the Mayor and sent in the National Guard.