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Tara Ariano

S04.E05: At The First Clear Word

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Bay spends a night drinking with Tank, but she can't remember all of the details the next morning, so she tries to piece together what happened. Elsewhere, Daphne's invited to a small gathering at her professor's home; and Lily offers assistance to Toby.

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Group project for intro chemistry? On an element? With a meeting with the professor for each group in the professor's office? Teach them something party at the professor's house with students who are in her class the same semester?!? Seriously, get an academic advisor!!! So bogus. And I absolutely refuse to believe that there were only five girls in an intro chemistry class of a hundred. Not even. Intro to engineering, sure. But chemistry? Not even. Because bio majors take intro chemistry, and there are a lot of women in biology. Heck, nursing majors have to take intro chemistry.

 

When Daphne yelled "You think I have it easy becuase I get advanced notes because I can't hear the lecture?" I wanted the other girl to say "I don't know why you need the notes, you sure seem to read lips perfectly.".

 

Once again we get the contrast: Daphne is having some wacky adventure with her classmates at her professor's house of mental wackiness, while Bay is realizing she got raped by a friend. Great job, show. 

 

Well, ok, good on the show for showing Regina and what's his name with clearly communicated consent right after Tank said people don't do that.

 

What worries me is that it feels like they're spending more time on Tank's reactions to this than Bay's. I understand having the show model how a guy who thinks he's not a rapist figures out that he is one, and that they show his thought process and evolution. But what that seems to mean, again, is that Bay gets ignored. I hope next week is more about her. 

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I didn't watch during the cycle where Tank was introduced and he was Bay's boyfriend or whatever, so the only real frame of reference I've got is what we saw of him this season and the last half season. But, I don't like him. Maybe it's not a real fair assessment, but he comes across as a 'nice guy' to me rather than an actual nice guy.

 

I don't like Daphne's chemistry group mate, nor do I like Toby's girlfriend.

 

What I do love is Toby's concern for Bay. Their relationship is consistently the best thing about this show imo.

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Ohhhh boy. Here we go.

 

Touchy subject, gray rape. The episode did a decent enough job of showing the he said/she said nature of it.

 

I’m not a supporter of the new “affirmative consent” laws that were just adopted in California, and maybe that colored my perspective on Bay’s storyline. I was sympathetic, but to a point. Tank did have a point about how no one stops and asks “is this okay? …Is this okay? …Is this okay?” over the course of a sexual encounter. Very odd that the much-hyped storyline got a very small sliver of episode screentime.

 

Do I think Tank is a rapist and should be prosecuted? No. Do I think Bay exercised some bad judgment and do I feel bad for her? Yes.

 

Other thoughts:

 

I liked Travis and Bay sharing a scene together. Vanessa Marano was very good throughout the episode in general.

 

Eric the Interpreter turned into Eric the Really Hot Interpreter. If this show is good for something, it’s unrealistically attractive actors.

 

Did I mishear or did the alleged English teacher actually say “overdramatical”? Not a word, lady.

 

A college chem 101 class is doing group projects on…the elements? Do they also have to do a diorama? Maybe dress up as chemical elements and put on a little play? And the professor inviting students over to fiddle around with liquid nitrogen…to prove a point? Also, an INTRO class of hundreds of students has only 5 girls? NONE OF THIS IS REALISTIC, SHOW.

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First off I feel horrible for Bay, I would feel horrible for anyone in that situation. 

 

From a storytelling point of view, I like that they showed both "scenarios" regarding what happened. From a legal perspective if Bay was as drunk as they were portraying her to be, she was not capable of consenting, however, I could see Tank believing that she was capable of consenting (if that makes sense) if his scenario is actually how it occurred. 

 

Does any one think Bay was possibly drugged or just too much alcohol? 

 

Tank's reaction- I know someone accused of committing a crime would be defensive, but Bay did not come at him aggressively- she wanted to know what happened (the first time they talked about it afterwards) I am not a man, but I would THINK a guy, especially a guy who claimed to be my friend would be scared and confused that he had possibly HURT me, rather than all upset that I didn't "remember" our night of "passion". He would be HURT not angry, and ask how i was DOING if I was asking questions like Bay was, from a purely physical level than anything else. 

 

From what we have been given, I do not think Tank consciously or unconsciously used Bay's incapacity to force her to have sex with him. I think (based on what we have seen with them and their relationship so far), that he wanted to believe that she was into him, and would cheat on Emmett with him, and being drunk too wasn't a rational being- he would take any sign (not necessarily a sign he would interrupt as "consent" if he weren't drunk) that she wanted it as much as he did. I do not believe he would force himself on a blacked out Bay, or a Bay that said "no", at least I suppose I don't want to believe that. 

 

But that doesn't change that Bay cannot remember consenting and cannot remember what happened. 

 

I am eager to read what other viewers have to say about it. I want Bay to get some counseling if nothing else, for her own piece of mind. 

Edited by Scarlett45
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Tank did have a point about how no one stops and asks “is this okay? …Is this okay? …Is this okay?” over the course of a sexual encounter.

Except that guy Regina was with did just that.  Maybe most people don't because it's not part of the general culture, but the general culture can change. It doesn't have to be a rote "Is this ok", it can be a sexy "Oh, so you like it when I do this?"  etc. That's the point of the affirmative consent guidelines - to change the way people view sex to make sure that they don't barge right over the other person's stop line without realizing it. 

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That's the point of the affirmative consent guidelines - to change the way people view sex to make sure that they don't barge right over the other person's stop line without realizing it.

 

Why can't the other person say "no" or "stop"? No Means No, it was a simple slogan. Women (men too, but let's generalize and say women since rape happens most often to that group) should be taught to stand up for themselves and assert their boundaries, not expect other to suss out what they are thinking or feeling, IMO. When alcohol and/or drugs are in the mix, it does get trickier. If she can't say YES or NO, then yeah you're raping someone. Then again, what if you too are drunk, like Tank was, and reading consent into the other person participating in sex? It's tough, no question.

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Then again, what if you too are drunk, like Tank was, and reading consent into the other person participating in sex?

That's why "Yes means Yes" is just as simple, but covers those cases. "No means no" didn't seem to stem the tide of rape cases, especially the ones that are a situation like this one. So far, campaigns based on "yes means yes" have had some pretty good results

 

I was kind of surprised that Toby and the teacher got back together at the end of the episode. Hopefully he does get his act together and starts doing some real work, or going to school. You can go to school for music engineering and the like, after all. 

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Also, an INTRO class of hundreds of students has only 5 girls? NONE OF THIS IS REALISTIC, SHOW.

 

If I cared, I would go back and watch the episode where Daphne runs into class and slams the door, and everyone turns around to look at her.  I'm sure they showed a wide shot of the class and we could count the girls.  But maybe the girls are all the ones that failed the midterm and already dropped the class?

 

They should have said Daphne got AP credit for science and was jumping right into an advanced Chem class.

 

Does any one think Bay was possibly drugged or just too much alcohol?

 

I thought of that when she mentioned not drinking that much.  But it could also just be she was too drunk to know how much she was drinking.

 

You can go to school for music engineering and the like, after all.

 

I thought of that when John was making cracks about studying "DJ-ing."  He wasn't serious, but there are degrees in music engineering and even music business.  It may not be the most practical major, but it would be a degree and I think John and Katharine should be encouraging him to pursue that.   It's interesting that the two kids they raised both are not in college.

Edited by KaveDweller
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Given Bay's "hypothetical" scenario to Regina, I wonder if viewers would have a more objective view on the subject if it was one of the myriad of secondary  or tertiary characters having this situation happen to them with Bay being a supportive friend. I think this would've been more effective if it were Daphne, Mary Beth or even Iris: girls actually in college. They've painted a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If this was happening to Daphne, she would be resented even more for being fawned over in an hour of need, but with Bay it's another "kick the dog" moment. Did anyone else cringe when they showed both her/his perspective scenarios?

 

I think both characters were wrong:

 

Bay should not have agreed to drink as much as she did the day after her house arrest, especially when her previous encounters with alcohol have never been positive experiences (and she's underage). I'd have rather her tag a random building in the dead of night if they were going the impetuous route. Although I suspected before this episode that the "jungle juice" had been spiked.

 

Tank has been in a fraternity with guys who had probably hooked up with girls for less (he stopped one from trying to take her to his room) so the signs were there.  I don't think he committed assault intentionally, but with either of them unable to clarify their stories I can see him still being held liable. There is a difference between giving consent and getting consent.

 

 

"And by the way, I'm 20 years old, I don't need to think about my future!" -  Toby Kennish

 

Another LOL-tastic quote from the Tobe-ster :)

Edited by Eri

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Does any one think Bay was possibly drugged or just too much alcohol?

I can't help but wonder if that's not why they showed her hitting her head on the wall after their chair races. Had she hit her head hard enough, could she have a minor concussion which made the effects of the alcohol that much more serious?

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I also thought they were pretty deliberate about showing Bay hitting her head, joanne3482. Isn't memory loss a side effect of a concussion? That could be why Bay isn't remembering the night if she didn't have that much to drink.

 

I don't think I'd like them to go that way. It would stop being the realistically common scenario of "two college kids get drunk and have sex under uncertain circumstances" and would turn into something resembling "guy screws girl with a head injury". That'd be too black-and-white.

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I'm pleasantly surprised by the route they took. They showed both perspectives realistically. I think Bay handled it very well, and I agree with her decision to just drop it. Based on the two flashbacks, he didn't do anything wrong. He's right, no one keeps asking is this OK? The only reason Regina's friend did was because she expressed regret over their last encounter. 

 

My hope is that the family supports Bay, but leaves Tank alone. He doesn't deserve to be threatened and certainly not prosecuted and labeled as a rapist. They both made pretty much the same bad decision, and its unfair for him to bear all the responsibility for it.

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I'm pleasantly surprised by the route they took. They showed both perspectives realistically. I think Bay handled it very well, and I agree with her decision to just drop it. Based on the two flashbacks, he didn't do anything wrong. He's right, no one keeps asking is this OK? The only reason Regina's friend did was because she expressed regret over their last encounter.

My hope is that the family supports Bay, but leaves Tank alone. He doesn't deserve to be threatened and certainly not prosecuted and labeled as a rapist. They both made pretty much the same bad decision, and its unfair for him to bear all the responsibility for it.

I feel the same way. I feel like Bay made a bad mistake by drinking so much, and as a result she had sex with Tank and regretted it in the morning. It happens and sucks, but that doesn't make it rape. Seems like Tank was just as wasted as Bay, and if she gave him signs that she was into it then he wouldn't have been in the state of mind to question it.

From the previews for next week though, it seems that ita gonna be a witch hunt against Tank. Which ticks me off because I don't think he did anything wrong.

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That's why "Yes means Yes" is just as simple, but covers those cases. "No means no" didn't seem to stem the tide of rape cases, especially the ones that are a situation like this one.

 

I don't know if that would help in this situation where Bay doesn't remember what she said.   She could have said Yes, as even she acknowledges.  She could have even kept saying yes right up until they were done, too.  But not remembering what happened means she was too drunk to say yes and didn't need to say no.  Yes means Yes doesn't make it any simpler in these cases.  It just makes it rape no matter what she says to the guy, just like statutory rape for underage teens.  I'm not sure how I feel about that.  (I think the California law cuts off funding to universities that don't implement affirmative consent policies, but is not a new statutory rape or rape law).

 

I am sure, however, that Katherine totally fell down on her mom-job while talking with hungover Bay.  Um, hello?  Bay is underage and should not be drinking, so she should have been all over her case for drinking at all, much less getting drunk!!  I'm surprised she didn't whip up some hangover cure from her sexy baseball musical days.

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First of all, I just want to point out that as a tenured college professor, I would never DREAM of requiring students (undergrad or grad) to come to my home. That would get me fired, pretty damn fast.

 

I'm very confused about something in this Bay/Tank scenario. She says that she doesn't remember anything at all--that it's a total blank. But then when she and Tank start arguing about how things went down, with the different versions of who kissed who, etc., it seems that they are both relating their own memory of what happened. So DOES she have a memory of it? She seems pretty adamant about insisting that she pushed him away... but I thought she said she remembers nothing? Why is this so inconsistent in the writing?

 

 

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Bay is the biological child of an alcoholic -- and getting blackout drunk is an indication of having to take care of the issue now. She's lucky it was only sex with a "friend". (Putting this in quotes because Tank knows enough about her family not to encourage her drinking and, if he cared for her, would actually be looking after her and getting her home. I don't give Daphne a pass either. She shouldn't have abandoned her sister.)

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The "yes means yes" educational campaign makes it clear, though, that consent when drunk isn't real consent. If the person wouldn't want to have sex with you while sober, getting drunk doesn't change what they really want. Even Tank jumped right to saying he assumed that she regretted it and had only said yes because she was drunk. Why would anyone have sex with someone knowing that person is only doing it because they're too drunk to care? Especially if they're a friend? If "drunk consent is not real consent" becomes the norm, that would prevent a whole lot of Bays from happening, and the worst result would be that people in the situation of having drunk too much at a party and met someone they literally could not ever see again in their lives wouldn't have sex with that person. If they can meet up with that person again in the future, they can have sex sober. I'd rather see a society where some people miss out on some sex some of the time than the one that ends up with a lot of people feeling like Bay does after. And I'll stop there - I'm already becoming repetitive.

 

 

I am sure, however, that Katherine totally fell down on her mom-job while talking with hungover Bay.

 

Oh yes. That look on Bay's face? Katherine should have been all over that. It was very out of character for her to not immediately notice something was very wrong. Heck, Daphne realized it right away. 

 

In other parenting failures - Regina saying "Oh, I don't know why I didn't ask you to do this with me to start with!" made me kind of mad. Dude. It's a mural. Bay is kind of well-known in the family as being an artist, and one who specializes in murals at that. I don't know why you didn't ask her to either, since it seems like the most common-sense thing in the world if you're paying any attention to your kid. Since Bay has been stuck there with nothing to do, Regina should have brought her in to the decorating business right away - I know she couldn't have gone on site, but Regina could have brought her swatch books, pictures, gotten Bay's opinion on color combinations. Heck, she could have commissioned Bay to do artwork for the places she's decorating, period. You know, help give her a business skill so she won't end up moping around borrowing money like Toby.

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I'm pleasantly surprised by the route they took. They showed both perspectives realistically. I think Bay handled it very well, and I agree with her decision to just drop it. Based on the two flashbacks, he didn't do anything wrong. He's right, no one keeps asking is this OK? The only reason Regina's friend did was because she expressed regret over their last encounter.

My hope is that the family supports Bay, but leaves Tank alone. He doesn't deserve to be threatened and certainly not prosecuted and labeled as a rapist. They both made pretty much the same bad decision, and its unfair for him to bear all the responsibility for it.

I don't think Tank should be prosecuted criminally or labeled as a rapist either (assuming he didn't intend to use Bay's incapacity to get around consent which I don't think he did), but I don't blame Bay if she doesn't want to be friends with him any more, and as I said up thread I hope she gets some counseling. Also Tank should probably think about his own personal rules regarding sex while wasted. And yeah, if you think someone is only consenting to sex with you because they are drunk then they probably arent into you. A part of me feels that Tank was eager to get back at Emmett for "stealing" Bay back, but I don't think he was trying to hurt Bay in the process. If that makes sense.

I think that for Bay she is emotionally upset because 1. She can't remeber (which would freak me out) and 2. She doesn't want to be someone who would consent to drunken sex with someone she wasn't into just to get back at Emmett. (I'm not saying that she is but that is a possible scenerio) I love this discussion because I think it's an important one to have especially for college kids.

Edited by Scarlett45
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Tank was nearly as drunk as Bay.  If she was too drunk to consent, isn't it also reasonable to assume that Tank was too drunk to form the intent to rape?  I don't like victimizing one of them when both were judgementally impaired.  I agree with the poster upthread who said he wanted to believe she was into it because he's still into her, and so that's how he read her signals.  I don't know what Bay did and didn't want at that time, and Bay herself says doesn't know what she did and didn't want at that time; at worst, Tank misunderstood her signals.   Not rape.  Both people are wrong and nobody's right.  And that's the way the real world usually works, in gray areas rather than in black and white.  She said she woke up feeling something was wrong.  I think that getting blackout drunk and waking up naked in bed with your old boyfriend, knowing your new boyfriend won't understand it -- that's enough to give me that uh-oh feeling right there.  

 

I really loathe Katherine.  Bay is sitting there looking absolutely forlorn and miserable and Katherine, as usual, does nothing but talk about herself.  When Bay said Mom? in that tone and looking like she's about to cry, and Katherine just singing some crap at her that is important and interesting only to Katherine, I felt so bad for Bay.  And Katherine: if something writes itself, that means it's already a cliche.  Trust me.

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Also Tank should probably think about his own personal rules regarding sex while wasted. And yeah, if you think someone is only consenting to sex with you because they are drunk then they probably arent into you. A part of me feels that Tank was eager to get back at Emmett for "stealing" Bay back, but I don't think he was trying to hurt Bay in the process. If that makes sense.

 

 

Absolutely. I shouldn't have said Tank didn't do anything wrong, he did. But so did she, and I think Bay's confronting him should be as far as it goes. That conversation should be enough to make them both think twice in the future.

Edited by MyRealName
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I thought the show handled date rape really well. The characters explained a lot of the current issues that have arisen in recent months without it being unnatural and of all the characters I think Bay, even though she's not in college, will be illustrating how a victim's life and previous choices can be dragged into these cases. I'm sure her recent felony, as well as her previous relationship with Tank and fight with Emmett will all be brought up as evidence against her trustworthiness.

Vanessa M was great in this episode, and I liked the final scene between her and Daphne.

I have been impressed so far, and i look forward to seeing how next week will go when more characters find out.

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Even Tank jumped right to saying he assumed that she regretted it and had only said yes because she was drunk. Why would anyone have sex with someone knowing that person is only doing it because they're too drunk to care?

 

Tank and Bay had that conversation in the light of day, so after he had some time to think about it and think about the fact that Bay completely snuck out of the room, without saying anything to him, and may or may not have replied to his texts.  I presume waking up by himself and realizing that she snuck out let Tank know she regretted it. 

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I'm pleasantly surprised by the route they took. They showed both perspectives realistically. I think Bay handled it very well, and I agree with her decision to just drop it. Based on the two flashbacks, he didn't do anything wrong. He's right, no one keeps asking is this OK? The only reason Regina's friend did was because she expressed regret over their last encounter. 

 

My hope is that the family supports Bay, but leaves Tank alone. He doesn't deserve to be threatened and certainly not prosecuted and labeled as a rapist. They both made pretty much the same bad decision, and its unfair for him to bear all the responsibility for it.

Agreed. I can see where Tank was coming from, I can see where Bay is coming from. I don't know what the right thing to do in that situation is.  While they both definintey appeared drunk from the flashbacks, I do fault Tank a little more because he knew she was dating Emmet and he knew she wasn't interested in him. Tank just saw an opportunity for something that he had wanted but hadn't previously been able to get and jumped on it.  That said, I completely understand how easy it is to think "YES!! It's finally happening!" when you're in a drunk situation like that

 

Does anyone have any idea of how old Toby's girlfriend is?  I couldn't believe she said something like "when I was your age I was already student teaching". If a significant other said something about "when I was your age" to me I'd be so angry and annoyed.  Toby was right to refuse her offer to pay his rent. That was ridiculous and I wished he had stuck to his guns. Yeah, maybe now isn't the time for Toby to be buying new DJ equipment but they aren't married, their finances aren't intertwined, it's really none of her business what he spends his money on.

 

I was so excited when Daphne's classmate said "You aren't the only one who has it hard and but she is the only one who is getting special breaks and second chances". I wonder if they know about Daphne's extra credit.  Then when they made up at the end? Ug. 

 

And can someone explain to me why Daphne thinks this Chemistry teacher is so great?? I don't get it. We've heard Daphne mention it in at least the past two episodes.

Edited by heythere
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I really, really hope we don't have to deal with Bay pregnant now after sleeping with Tank.  The point is made: when you make bad choices, you pay the price.  We get it.  It's beaten into us every time Bay complains about working on a chain gang.  I really don't want to sit through baby drama.

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I really, really hope we don't have to deal with Bay pregnant now after sleeping with Tank.  The point is made: when you make bad choices, you pay the price.  We get it.  It's beaten into us every time Bay complains about working on a chain gang.  I really don't want to sit through baby drama.

Tank did seem very adamant that they used protection so I think/hope we're in the clear on that one.

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And can someone explain to me why Daphne thinks this Chemistry teacher is so great?? I don't get it. We've heard Daphne mention it in at least the past two episodes.

 

Because she could be teaching at an Ivy League (or something) and she chooses to teach at UMKC.  They're very lucky to have her. I wish this show understood "showing" not "telling." I can't even focus on Daphne's college story because it is so ridiculously wrong. 

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The writers seem to enjoy a "lesson of the day" episode and after her pregnancy scare with Emmett (the lesson being "think before you sink"), one is enough. That's probably why they made him stress that they were safe.

Edited by Eri
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Because she could be teaching at an Ivy League (or something) and she chooses to teach at UMKC.  They're very lucky to have her. I wish this show understood "showing" not "telling." I can't even focus on Daphne's college story because it is so ridiculously wrong. 

 

And she raised her kids as a single mom, and she's pretty. Who cares Daphne. I'm sure plenty of professors could be teaching at Ivy Leagues but prefer to be at a lesser known/less prestegious college because of location, being close to family, enjoying their co-workers, whatever.  I wouldn't be so annoyed with it if her reasoning was something more along the lines of "I've been learning so much!" or "She makes a really hard class really interesting, easy to understand and fun!".

 

I just want Daphne gone at this point. But I don't want something terrible to happen to her because then we'd have to deal with everyone being all sad that their patron saint has died or left them.

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Tank was nearly as drunk as Bay.  If she was too drunk to consent, isn't it also reasonable to assume that Tank was too drunk to form the intent to rape?  I don't like victimizing one of them when both were judgementally impaired.  I agree with the poster upthread who said he wanted to believe she was into it because he's still into her, and so that's how he read her signals.  I don't know what Bay did and didn't want at that time, and Bay herself says doesn't know what she did and didn't want at that time; at worst, Tank misunderstood her signals.   Not rape.  Both people are wrong and nobody's right.  And that's the way the real world usually works, in gray areas rather than in black and white.  She said she woke up feeling something was wrong.  I think that getting blackout drunk and waking up naked in bed with your old boyfriend, knowing your new boyfriend won't understand it -- that's enough to give me that uh-oh feeling right there.  

 

I really loathe Katherine.  Bay is sitting there looking absolutely forlorn and miserable and Katherine, as usual, does nothing but talk about herself.  When Bay said Mom? in that tone and looking like she's about to cry, and Katherine just singing some crap at her that is important and interesting only to Katherine, I felt so bad for Bay.  And Katherine: if something writes itself, that means it's already a cliche.  Trust me.

  

Tank did seem very adamant that they used protection so I think/hope we're in the clear on that one.

Personally, I think that the fact that Tank remembers the evening so well that he is positive that they used protection, indicates that he was not close to as drunk as Bay. Also, intoxication does not absolve a person from criminal responsibility. If it did, people would not be charged with DUIs

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Personally, I think that the fact that Tank remembers the evening so well that he is positive that they used protection, indicates that he was not close to as drunk as Bay. Also, intoxication does not absolve a person from criminal responsibility. If it did, people would not be charged with DUIs

 

I get it and it makes sense, but I get stuck with how being drunk somehow does absolve Bay from responsibility and puts it ALL on Tank.

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I was so excited when Daphne's classmate said "You aren't the only one who has it hard and but she is the only one who is getting special breaks and second chances". I wonder if they know about Daphne's extra credit.

I so thought that's where they were going, especially when she said "We all know you got a D on the midterm". But then they pulled that one back and didn't go with it. I really wanted them to go with it.

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I noticed that Daphne's accent appears different.  Maybe I'm just projecting this because of hearing her normal voice in the holiday episode, but I swear she appears to be using more of her normal voice lately.  I can't stand the character of Daphne, so maybe that's part of my problem.  

 

During the preview for next week's episode I saw Travis take a swing at someone.  It is possible that he finds out that Bay's cup was spiked with something else?  She certainly did seem more impaired than Tank.  I loved the scene with Toby and Tank.  I love how Toby consistently sticks up for his sister.  I do wish, however, that he would dump the teacher.  She has to be at least a few years older than him and she at times treats him like her little brother. 

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So DOES she have a memory of it? She seems pretty adamant about insisting that she pushed him away... but I thought she said she remembers nothing? Why is this so inconsistent in the writing?

 

I thought maybe it started coming back to her after talking to Travis and Tank.  But it was kind of jarring that they just had her suddenly remember things.

 

I was so excited when Daphne's classmate said "You aren't the only one who has it hard and but she is the only one who is getting special breaks and second chances". I wonder if they know about Daphne's extra credit.  Then when they made up at the end? Ug.

 

I thought she was talking about the extra credit too, but then it ended up being about her getting advanced notes? Or maybe that was Daphne being clueless?

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I get it and it makes sense, but I get stuck with how being drunk somehow does absolve Bay from responsibility and puts it ALL on Tank.

 

THIS so much.  As a mother of 2 daughters AND a son I just cannot wrap my brain around the fact that both were drunk and because Tank was drunk and "remembered"  (which I will use loosely) but Bay didn't then he somehow has the full responsibility.  At what point are we going to hold females as accountable as the males. She should bear equal responsibility because he was NOT pouring drinks down her then tricking her into going in the room.  In both scenarios she invited him into the bed.  Which many  young men would take as an opening to the next level.  Right or wrong they cannot be compared to a 40 something couple giving consent because that 40 something couple has a lot more experience in life than two college age kids.  Yes, kids because I have a kid Tank's age and they do not have the life skills I have a 45. 

 

One of the things Bay said to Daphne toward the end was along the lines of she woke up and just felt like something was wrong.  Daphne clearly took that as you were raped.  Whereas I took that as well you did just cheat on your boyfriend with your ex which could be what you are feeling.

 

I watched this with my almost 14 yr old, it was certainly a PSA for THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT DRINK at their age. 

Edited by CoolMom
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I watched this with my almost 14 yr old, it was certainly a PSA for THIS IS WHY YOU DO NOT DRINK at their age. 

 

Which is why I am so pissed that Katherine pretty much giggled past the fact that underage Bay who had JUST come off house arrest had been drinking so much she was hungover.  She said absolutely nothing except that it was good Bay hadn't driven home, and should text her when she isn't coming home because she's too drunk to drive.

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Which is why I am so pissed that Katherine pretty much giggled past the fact that underage Bay who had JUST come off house arrest had been drinking so much she was hungover.  She said absolutely nothing except that it was good Bay hadn't driven home, and should text her when she isn't coming home because she's too drunk to drive.

 

If my college student was living at home and did not come home from a party, embarrassing or not, I would go out to find her (or him).  It was kind of inferred that they knew she was at Daphne's dorm but I would NOT be able to sleep not knowing where my child was or if they were ok.

 

My daughter did note that I would have known something was wrong just by the tone of her voice.

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One of the things Bay said to Daphne toward the end was along the lines of she woke up and just felt like something was wrong.  Daphne clearly took that as you were raped.  Whereas I took that as well you did just cheat on your boyfriend with your ex which could be what you are feeling.

 

Yes! When Bay woke up she wasn't traumatized or hurt or ashamed - she was worried because she cheated on Emmett. The idea that she was "raped" didn't even cross her mind until Regina said she was (or Bay's fictional friend was). That's pretty telling to me. Assault wasn't on Bay's radar until someone put it there.

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Or maybe it's as simple as she felt something was off, but couldn't place what exactly it was so she assumed it was just because she might have cheated. 

 

Exactly.  

 

She can be worried that she might have cheated on Emmett, but she can also be scared that it's not that simple and that she was violated by someone who she thought was her "friend."  Especially when that "friend's" story isn't adding up and goes against what she knows inherently about herself.  She knows she's never wanted to have sex with Tank, but here he is saying all this stuff that doesn't make much sense to her.  It doesn't add up.

 

And Bay's cheated before. She knows what that feels like.  This ain't that.  Regina just unwittingly provided a possible explanation for why she is feeling the way she is.  Not that Bay was looking for some "out" for cheating on Emmett.  

 

And Tank should do himself a favor and admit to the possibility of wrongdoing on his part.  Bay has.  His incredulous attitude that Bay somehow doesn't like the fact that she slept with him is off-putting.  He knows damn well that she was never into having sex with him before, so his attitude now is sort of gross.  Like, "how DARE she try to act like she wasn't totally into being with me!"  It's close to "you know you wanted it" territory.  The writers keep talking about how he "cares so much" about Bay, but if he did, he would be horrified that she's hurting and he may have been the cause.

 

He frankly looks like a fool.  I can possibly buy that at the drunken moment he really believed his fantasy that she was going to break up with Emmett to run back to his open arms, but to continue to act in the light of sober day like that was remotely plausible makes him look sketchy.  Unless he's supposed to be sort of slow, he knows that was never going to happen.  I don't know if he's embarrassed, trying to save face, or if he's so desperate for Bay to want him that he really believes it, but he needs to give it up.

 

Not that I ever bought it, as he does have a history of being quick to anger and aggressive when he doesn't get his way, but that "nice guy" shtick is done. 

 

Why was he surprised that Toby was sticking by his sister? 

 

And no. Bay didn't rape him.  He clearly doesn't have an issue with HIS consent.  

 

Someone on Tumblr, can't find it at the moment, posted a screenshot of Bay looking at the ceiling in the room and a screenshot of Tank looking at the same ceiling.  The shot from Bay's POV was all blurry and out of focus, but Tank's was normal and clear.  I don't know if it was intentional or not from the writers or the director, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Edited by KBrownie
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The writers keep talking about how he "cares so much" about Bay, but if he did, he would be horrified that she's hurting and he may have been the cause.

KBrownie exactly. If they are supposedly friends, wouldn't he be concerned that if she was acting that weird maybe she had some adverse affects to the alcohol? Wouldn't he ask how she's DOING- medically if she can't remember the evening?

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KBrownie exactly. If they are supposedly friends, wouldn't he be concerned that if she was acting that weird maybe she had some adverse affects to the alcohol? Wouldn't he ask how she's DOING- medically if she can't remember the evening?

 

Yep.  But instead he's calling her "crazy." What a pal, that Tank.

 

It's such a warning sign how he gets so angry and aggressive with her whenever he doesn't get the response he wants from her.  It happened the first time she refused to sleep with him and when he found out that she talked to Emmett about the Ty not cheating thing as well.  "Nice guy" my ass.  It's a cover.  No, I don't think he's some violent serial killer or anything, but there are definite signs of a not-so-nice guy under all that lovable, goofy exterior.

 

I still can't believe he, or even Travis, didn't call anyone in her family, that they know so well, to come and take care of her.  They didn't even need to call her parents.  It's re-established that he's still living with Toby, so why couldn't he call him?  She falls and hits her head, but nothing.  Bad decisions all around.

 

Tank is no victim here.  

 

Bay is trying to find out what happened.  No harm in that.  He's pissed that she isn't taking his version of events as gospel.  Says a lot about that supposed "friendship."  Tank was always an escape for Bay, not a real friend.  It started as an escape from Ty and Emmett and her previous bad experiences with boyfriends, and he was a convenient escape after her fight with Emmett and feeling as if she had nothing going on in her life while everyone else had changed.  A mistake on her part to interact with him in that way, sure.  But Tank doesn't get excused for his behavior.  He got what he wanted.  Too bad he doesn't see anything wrong with the fact that he could only sleep with Bay when she was falling down drunk and how that makes him look.  Even if Bay did clearly consent.  And now he's upset that Bay isn't following along with his idealized version of it.  What. A. Pal.

Edited by KBrownie
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I'm very confused about something in this Bay/Tank scenario. She says that she doesn't remember anything at all--that it's a total blank. But then when she and Tank start arguing about how things went down, with the different versions of who kissed who, etc., it seems that they are both relating their own memory of what happened. So DOES she have a memory of it? She seems pretty adamant about insisting that she pushed him away... but I thought she said she remembers nothing? Why is this so inconsistent in the writing?

 

I thought that Bay was imagining how things could have happened based on what Tank was saying.

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I thought that Bay was imagining how things could have happened based on what Tank was saying.

 

Or it jogged her memory and she started to recall what she remembered.

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It was suprisingly well done. From trailer i expected 40 minutes of brainwashing about "yes mean yes", but it was well balanced. Needless to say i am full on Tank side, it is unfair he is solely blamed just because he was maybe slightly less drunk (and because he is a guy). Regina pissed me a lot, she know nothing about what happened, but it is clear rape for her. If i was Tank i would be angry at Bay for suggesting me being a rapist, that is not cool way how to handle drunken sex between friends. But as a viewer i felt sorry for her, she tried to resist pressure of others to blame it all on Tank, she just wanted to know what happened and to figure out her own feeling. I wish her luck to explain it to her melodramatic  boyfriend.

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It doesn't matter if you're male or female, the less drunk person should not take advantage of someone who is obviously impaired.

 

It was clear Tank had clear memories of his evening, he apparently prepared for and performed protected sex in a stranger's bedroom, and was delighted that he finally had sex with a girl who had previously turned him down. Bay had a few fuzzy memories of the night before and woke up uncomfortable at the thought of possibly having had sex with Tank.

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I did note that the stars on the ceiling were clear in Tank's version and blurry in Bay's.  But I saw that as their specific point of view: Tank felt they were both thinking clearly even though there was a lot of drinking involved.  Bay on the other hand didn't.  Both scenes showed her talking to Tank awake and aware.  She invited him into the bed in both points of view. Here's a question: if the same exact situation had played out with Emmett, would Bay have felt the same way when she woke up? No she wouldn't have. .  So then is it really rape or remorse?

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I did note that the stars on the ceiling were clear in Tank's version and blurry in Bay's. But I saw that as their specific point of view: Tank felt they were both thinking clearly even though there was a lot of drinking involved. Bay on the other hand didn't. Both scenes showed her talking to Tank awake and aware. She invited him into the bed in both points of view. Here's a question: if the same exact situation had played out with Emmett, would Bay have felt the same way when she woke up? No she wouldn't have. . So then is it really rape or remorse?

I think the show is demonstrating that the most telling thing for Bay is that she can't remember. Had she remembered consenting to sex with Tank (no matter how drunk she was), her only concern would be how to break it to Emmett. But because she can't remember what happened, (again a scary thing) and she knows she wouldn't consent to sex with Tank in the cold light of day she is all mixed up inside. With Emmett she wouldn't question what her memories were because she feels/knows she would want to sober, drunk, whatever.

Im not mad at Regina- Regina is a recovering alcoholic who has seen more much than I have. If someone told naive ME, they were so drunk they could remember what I happened, I would assumed they blacked out before intercourse. Having sex with someone who's knocked out is rape, even if earlier in the night they consented to foreplay or whatever but I don't know how memory loss works with alcohol.

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Yep. But instead he's calling her "crazy." What a pal, that Tank.

It's such a warning sign how he gets so angry and aggressive with her whenever he doesn't get the response he wants from her. It happened the first time she refused to sleep with him and when he found out that she talked to Emmett about the Ty not cheating thing as well. "Nice guy" my ass. It's a cover. No, I don't think he's some violent serial killer or anything, but there are definite signs of a not-so-nice guy under all that lovable, goofy exterior.

I still can't believe he, or even Travis, didn't call anyone in her family, that they know so well, to come and take care of her. They didn't even need to call her parents. It's re-established that he's still living with Toby, so why couldn't he call him? She falls and hits her head, but nothing. Bad decisions all around.

Tank is no victim here.

Bay is trying to find out what happened. No harm in that. He's pissed that she isn't taking his version of events as gospel. Says a lot about that supposed "friendship." Tank was always an escape for Bay, not a real friend. It started as an escape from Ty and Emmett and her previous bad experiences with boyfriends, and he was a convenient escape after her fight with Emmett and feeling as if she had nothing going on in her life while everyone else had changed. A mistake on her part to interact with him in that way, sure. But Tank doesn't get excused for his behavior. He got what he wanted. Too bad he doesn't see anything wrong with the fact that he could only sleep with Bay when she was falling down drunk and how that makes him look. Even if Bay did clearly consent. And now he's upset that Bay isn't following along with his idealized version of it. What. A. Pal.

I feel both Bay and Tank are equally at fault for this situation. I say this as a mother to a 14 year old son and two daughters, but if you were in Tank's shoes and your friend that you had drunk sex with implied that you raped her how would you take it? This situation can ruin Tank's life and label him a sex offender for life.

They were both drunk and if Bay claims she can't remember, how can she be certain she pushed him away? Why is it just the males responsibility to make sure she was ok to have sex with? Both made a bad choice, but if Tank was drinking then his decision making was impaired and if Bay was leading him on then I can see how they ended up having sex. It was both their faults, so for Bay to act like a poor victim of Tank the rapist is ridiculous.

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