S01.E03: Where Are They Now? Penny and Tara

[aliya]

The people on the new shows look like terribly sad situations. I think that even after they lose the weight, think of the skin surgeries, the pain, all because of food. That poor young woman sliding down the stairs; I have no idea what they do for legs like that.

[MsVixen]

The people on the new shows look like terribly sad situations. I think that even after they lose the weight, think of the skin surgeries, the pain, all because of food. That poor young woman sliding down the stairs; I have no idea what they do for legs like that.

 

The first time I saw this woman, I noticed that she wore berets in her hair and it looked like ballet flats on her feet.  She reminded me on how circus fat ladies used to dress in the 50s and 60s.

Aliya, that is what would scare me most about being that overweight, the legs never being normal. 

[Miss Chevious]

I think she clearly does have mental issues. In her original episode, when she was in the ambulance getting taken for a post-surgery checkup, they showed her babbling about how she's lost 350lbs since leaving the surgery center, etc. (It turned out she had lost 0lbs since leaving the surgery center). The EMTs had closed-down looks on their faces like they knew everything she was saying was delusional.

 

 

 

And while four large men plus her husband were straining to lift her elephantine body onto the gurney, she said "oh I can pretend I'm Cleopatra". Clearly she is getting off on the whole situation, a deluded narcissist who thinks the world revolves around her. I found myself feeling sorry for the poor men that had to do the heavy lifting. I'll bet there were some stories going around the firehouse that night.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Miss Chevious

[Bellalisa]

My hope is Edgar will leave her alone for a few days to lie in her own piss and shit. And she'd be so hungry that she would get out of bed and walk to the fridge. Maybe even walk to the toilet instead of shitting in her bed. 

 

Another scenario would be to move her into a room with a toilet and tell her you are stopping by 3 times a day with a healthy meal. You will change the sheets once a week. If she needs to pee or shit she better get her ass up to the toilet. 

 

This bitch really has me riled up! It's because of the kid. She doesn't want to get better, she always has an excuse and she is a food addict. As long as she has Edgar bringing her whatever she wants and putting cream on her and wiping her ass she doesn't fucking care. Anyway this kid is scarred for life- imagine watching your mother shit into a bedpan and your father dumping it and wiping her ass. Imagine how big and smelly this feces is the way she eats!!!! ACK! It must stink up that tiny apartment. This is child abuse I am sorry! It is one thing for an elderly person who is unable but this fucking bitch. I hate her with a passion, lying shitstain of humanity.

[Cherrio]

My hope is Edgar will leave her alone for a few days to lie in her own piss and shit. And she'd be so hungry that she would get out of bed and walk to the fridge. Maybe even walk to the toilet instead of shitting in her bed. 

 

Another scenario would be to move her into a room with a toilet and tell her you are stopping by 3 times a day with a healthy meal. You will change the sheets once a week. If she needs to pee or shit she better get her ass up to the toilet. 

 

This bitch really has me riled up! It's because of the kid. She doesn't want to get better, she always has an excuse and she is a food addict. As long as she has Edgar bringing her whatever she wants and putting cream on her and wiping her ass she doesn't fucking care. Anyway this kid is scarred for life- imagine watching your mother shit into a bedpan and your father dumping it and wiping her ass. Imagine how big and smelly this feces is the way she eats!!!! ACK! It must stink up that tiny apartment. This is child abuse I am sorry! It is one thing for an elderly person who is unable but this fucking bitch. I hate her with a passion, lying shitstain of humanity.

It definitely is child abuse.  I know they left out the daily tantrums we all know Penny has.   I agree Liam must see horrifying and disgusting things everyday.

      Also, Liam should not be lying on top on that beast and riding the wheelchair. What is worse is that TLC as always never ever lets a chance go by when they can film a child in the most inappropriate way. Lets just exploit another kid, its what they do best.

Shame on Penny's family for not doing something about Liam. Shame on Maryland for not doing something about Liam.

[scowl]

This reminded me of Robin and Jackie from the "We Lost 800 lbs" show. Jackie was as large as, if not larger than, Penny and also had to be carried in an ambulance a few times, and she was always so gracious. 

 

I read a book written by a paramedic a few years ago. One call he worked began from a report of a woman in front of an apartment building who had been crying for hours. Her family had gotten her a first floor apartment but she was so obese she simply couldn't get up the five steps to get into the building. The author said, "It might as well have been Mount Everest for her."

 

Although this situation was in no way a "rescue", their job is to help people in need. They made some calls and got the help of the fire department to get equipment to lift her safely up the stairs into her apartment. The author said she was sobbing and apologizing to them the entire time they were moving her and couldn't stop thanking them after she finally got into her new living room.

 

And then there's Penny...

Edited January 29, 2015 by scowl

[Thadeeeyus]

Just saw Penny's episode and realized that I'm familiar with where she lives. Kind of crazy. I just wanted to address a couple of things mentioned in this thread.  Her apartment complex is not subsidized but it's a large complex so I guess there could be some units set aside for that. Also, they could very well have a 2BR apartment. There's one 2-BR model that has a bedroom right as you walk in the door.. This would be across from the room where Penny is. The camera never looked in that direction and the layout of the kitchen looked like this particular model. The other BR is down the hall on the other side of the living space. 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Thadeeeyus

[AdorkableWitch]

Just saw Penny's episode and realized that I'm familiar with where she lives. Kind of crazy. I just wanted to address a couple of things mentioned in this thread.  Her apartment complex is not subsidized but it's a large complex so I guess there could be some units set aside for that. Also, they could very well have a 2BR apartment. There's one 2-BR model that has a bedroom right as you walk in the door.. This would be across from the room where Penny is. The camera never looked in that direction and the layout of the kitchen looked like this particular model. The other BR is down the hall on the other side of the living space. 

 

Some apartment complexes set aside X number of apartments that are at a lower rate for folks within a certain income bracket. They tend to either get a nice tax credit or get money when building the complex.

[momofsquid]

What I've been pondering this week: Penny claims to be down to 400 pounds, which is only 18 pounds heavier than our Big Fat Fabulous Whitney, who is able to dance and date and drive and run on the beach. I'd like to hear her explain just what is keeping her fat ass stapled to that bed when other girls her size are out there living their lives. Oh yeah, she has that little sore between her rolls. That must be it. 

[Ocean Chick]

But just like Colin from "The Secret Garden", she doesn't have to be bed bound.  There are plenty of exercises she could do to strengthen her muscles so she could actually walk with a walker instead of using a wheelchair.  She's had a year to do it.  She hasn't, because she doesn't want to.  Her life is fine in her mind.

[Miss Chevious]

As far as Penny being bed bound - she's had a physical therapist come to her house on a regular basis after her surgery, the goal being to get her to get up out of bed and walk. On camera, the PT says after one month of intensive therapy, she made no progress. If a physical therapist can't get her a little more mobile, it's because Penny doesn't want to.

[islandgal140]

 

I agree-I think that Penny probably could walk with effort, although maybe she can't, and I don't want to sound like I'm yelling at a person who has real problems. I also think Penny probably has problems walking because of real muscle weakness, but these problems are caused by her own decisions to not make the effort to practice or try or anything else. I don't think it's a soap operatic condition where someone pushes her into a swimming pool and she swims, revealing it was a ruse all along because I think she believes she can't walk. I also think it's pretty terrifying that someone can will themselves into this sort of state--constant care, constant dependency, unnecessary surgery, etc.

 

It is funny you should mention the swimming example because while I was watching Edgar laboriously push her 600+ lb girth around in that re-enforced wheelchair I was reminded of that episode of Little House on the Prairie where Laura pushed Nellie, who was faking paralysis, down a hill and into a pond. 

 

Penny is probably the quintessential figure of the self-fulfilling prophecy idea. I do believe that Penny can't walk but only because years ago she probably had pain in her joints due to the weight so she took to her bed, refused to get up and walk since it pained her to do so and now her muscles have atrophied to the point that she now physically cannot without extensive surgery and effort, which ain't gonna happen because well.. its Penny. It is a never ending circlefuck with her, ain't it!

 

It is not even just her walking. I find her dependence on oxygen possibly even more infuriating. Not only has she convinced herself and made it true that she is unable to walk but she also now can't breath air like a normal person. 

 

I believe the only real problem Penny has is a mental one. Penny's case made me wish that the show engaged addiction specialists. What I wouldn't give to have Jeff VanVonderen from Intervention call her out on her bullshit and crown her Queen Baby. 

 

Penny was expecting magic with no effort. Dr. Now (the Wizard of Oz) was supposed to wave his magic wand and melt the fat away, the ruby slippers would make her walk without the pain and effort of re-building her leg muscles and Penny could continue to fry and eat wontons & huge bowls of sugary cereal to her heart's content.  Hence the yellow brick road talk. She doesn't want a moment of discomfort or unease otherwise she won't and can't do it. 

[KarmaG]

It is not even just her walking. I find her dependence on oxygen possibly even more infuriating. Not only has she convinced herself and made it true that she is unable to walk but she also now can't breath air like a normal person. 

 

But she doesn't have dependence on oxygen. And I think when the cameras aren't around she doesn't use it as often as she portrays. As someone else pointed out earlier, she doesn't have the typical obvious marks etc on her face, side of her head, ears from the oxygen cord being worn all the time. Her oxygen dependence isn't even something in her head, it's simply a lie she tells.

[lovesnark]

My theory on why Penny insists she needs oxygen is that she doesn't have to make as much effort to breathe. Why expend all that energy breathing like average folks when you can stick a cannula into your nostrils and have oxygen pumped in? 

[Oldernowiser]

Okay , today on the treadmill I watched the rest of the Penny original episode and then the Tara episode just to stop fuming.

Penny is actually pretty damned upfront about why she does what she does. "Actually I do more for my son than most mothers do who have to go to work all day. "

When someone tells you who they are, believe them.

Second...it's driving me crazy, but that gym trainer in Tara's episode is someone I know I've seen on some other show, but the only thing I can come up with is that pseudo-shrink with the really soft, condescending voice who shows up on Hoarders.

Anyone?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Oldernowiser

[Oldernowiser]

Penny thinks she feels lighter, so therefor she is.  In her own mind, at least.  I'll bet if she stepped on a scale she'd weigh just about what she did before surgery.  And she'd say that the scale was wrong.

The hospital scales before her surgery were wrong, according to Penny World. Ooookay.

How can she " feel lighter" if she never stands up? She so rarely supports her own weight, so how the hell would she know?

[Ocean Chick]

How can she " feel lighter" if she never stands up? She so rarely supports her own weight, so how the hell would she know?

 

 

But she's been following her diet to the letter!  She can tell just by looking at it how many calories food has.  And she eats like a bird!

 

Like one of those giant birds from those laughable 50's horror movies, maybe.

[KarmaG]

Penny is actually pretty damned upfront about why she does what she does. "Actually I do more for my son than most mothers do who have to go to work all day. "

 

This is her trying to lift herself up while insulting someone else. This isn't her telling us who she is. This is her insulting working moms. We all know she isn't doing much of anything for Liam from her bed.

[silverspoons]

What "condition" did Penny claim to have to need the oxygen? It doesn't make sense if she was 450lbs and met Edgar at a bar and was able to drive. She also was able to get married and pregnant at about the same weight she is now. I wonder if she got addicted to the care Edgar gave her while pregnant? I would think she would have been on some type of bed rest during the end. I was on bed rest for several months at the end of my pregnancy and while it drove me crazy, I'll admit my husband doing all the cooking and cleaning an getting me anything I wanted was kind of nice. I could not wait to get out and drive again but maybe Penny got addicted to Edgar's care? Maybe Edgar got addicted to be a caregiver? Is there any timeline to how soon after Liam was born that Penny was bedridden?

[Oldernowiser]

This is her trying to lift herself up while insulting someone else. This isn't her telling us who she is. This is her insulting working moms. We all know she isn't doing much of anything for Liam from her bed.

Actually, I was thinking more that she was just flat-out saying that she gets out of having to have a job being this way and that what she's admitting is that she's lazy, not that she was criticizing moms who work.

YMMV, obviously...

Edited January 31, 2015 by Oldernowiser

[KarmaG]

Actually, I was thinking more that she was just flat-out saying that she gets out of having to mave a job being this way and that what she's admitting is that she's lazy, not that she was criticizing moms who work.

YMMV, obviously...

 

Oh no, taken in context when she said it she was very much trying to prove to the viewers she was better than working moms, she's a great mom who does so much for her kid that they can't because *gasp* they are gone to work!! It was the typical stance the do nothing at home, stay at home moms have. Not every stay at home mom is a do nothing but those that are take this stance to show otherwise. And yes, YMMV :)

What "condition" did Penny claim to have to need the oxygen? It doesn't make sense if she was 450lbs and met Edgar at a bar and was able to drive. She also was able to get married and pregnant at about the same weight she is now. I wonder if she got addicted to the care Edgar gave her while pregnant? I would think she would have been on some type of bed rest during the end. I was on bed rest for several months at the end of my pregnancy and while it drove me crazy, I'll admit my husband doing all the cooking and cleaning an getting me anything I wanted was kind of nice. I could not wait to get out and drive again but maybe Penny got addicted to Edgar's care? Maybe Edgar got addicted to be a caregiver? Is there any timeline to how soon after Liam was born that Penny was bedridden?

 

It was said upthread somewhere. Can't remember what it's called but it's also what got her SSI/disability. Also, I (and some others) believe she was already bedridden when Liam was conceived.

[hoosiermom]

Ewwww! So they had sex in the pee/poop bed? Thank God for times I have short term memory loss.

[lchal]

Holy God. I just checked her FB page because I could NOT resist. First of all, as others have mentioned, her spelling and sentence structure is horrible. She is a complete nutjob in her posts. The worst is her Christmas card photo of course taken in her living room...but poor Edgar wasn't even looking in the right direction of the camera. He is also wearing a super classy t-shirt.

[islandgal140]

But she's been following her diet to the letter!  She can tell just by looking at it how many calories food has.  And she eats like a bird!

 

Like one of those giant birds from those laughable 50's horror movies, maybe.

Rodan? Godzilla's sometimes friend and sometimes ally.

[lovesnark]

Well, to get as big as she is, she has been eating  like a bird. Birds eat one quarter to one half of their body weight per day in order to satisfy their metabolic requirements. Baby birds sometimes eat their entire body weight in a day. Difference is, birds MOVE.

 

I wonder what caloric intake in 24 hours would be necessary to just sustain her? Doesn't seem like it would be much since she doesn't move. I don't think a body uses a lot of calories to roll over and have someone wipe it's butt or  type on a laptop or yell. 

[non sequitur]

I wonder what caloric intake in 24 hours would be necessary to just sustain her? Doesn't seem like it would be much since she doesn't move. I don't think a body uses a lot of calories to roll over and have someone wipe it's butt or  type on a laptop or yell. 

It doesn't seem like she would need many but I think she needs a lot more, like over 2500 a day just for her body to function.

 

I had in-laws who were in a similar but less extreme situation than Penny and Edgar, and it didn't end well.

[purpleflowers]

Ugh, what to say about Penny? Everyone has already said it so well. If she was able to go around her neighborhood in the wheelchair, why does she have to be in the bed all day in the home? Wouldn't she rather at least be sitting up in a chair rather than laying in bed? But then, maybe not. She doesn't seem to have a normal thought process going on. To me the worst thing about this situation is how her family is suffering for it. If there is a way her husband could leave the home with the son such that Penny wouldn't be completely isolated or stranded in the bed, I think that might be the only thing that would give her a huge reality check. She needs to be shown that no one is going to put up with this behavior. Even if she has become addicted to his care or addicted to food, she could make the first step to seek counseling. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by purpleflowers

[JunebugTx]

It doesn't seem like she would need many but I think she needs a lot more, like over 2500 a day just for her body to function.

 

I read somewhere recently (in a magazine, maybe) that the average person needs about 1500 calories a day just to function if you don't do anything but sit around all day.  Not sure how that would translate to someone like Penny, who obviously weighs a lot more than the average person.

 

I spent the whole episode wondering when the last time Penny actually saw a medical professional (besides the home health nurse she obviously has).  And when the last time she got on a scale with the capacity to weigh someone of her size was.  I find it sad that she was given the gift of surgery and she hasn't taken advantage of it.

 

It was nice to see that Tara seems to be doing well.  She at least has a good attitude about things, and wants to try to break the cycle with her daughter.

[Muffyn]

In one of the pop-ups, they said Edgar now works at an auto parts store.  He comes home at lunch to help Penny with her toilet needs.  So he may well be working 40 hours a week outside the home.  While Penny is probably still getting disability, she was doing feeder porn.  Edgar was helping her with that.  I don’t know if she still does that (and I’m not willing to search for it – even I have limits).  That may be the $500 per month she now claims to be supplementing by couponing. 

 

Now that Liam’s older, Penny can order him around the way she does Edgar and call it her taking care of them.  If she tells him to brush his teeth and has him bring her his clothes to “help” him dress, etc., in her warped mind she is working hard and being a good mom keeping the family together.  After all, she cleaned him and dressed him.  Of course, it is actually more work for downtrodden Edgar to get her all set up to make them sandwiches than it would be for him to just make them at the kitchen counter. 

 

The miracle is that she doesn’t have a terrible infection, given that she’s pisses and shits in her bed.  While Edgar may not be able to keep everything perfect, it is a testament to the care he provides that she is not septic.  My brother is bed-ridden from a degenerative disease.   At his care facility, they have him sit up every day for as long as possible.  It has made him stronger, and it helps prevent pneumonia, blood clots and skin infections.  Penny’s quarter-sized lesion is not an excuse to lie in bed.  It is a reason to get up.  But that would take effort, something she will not expend.  While I hate the whole “I’m a food addict” mentality, Penny does show addict behavior in the way she manipulates and abuses others to get her needs met.

[auntjess]

 

The next time Jabba the Hut threatens Edgar in a fit of controlling, narcissistic rage, he can fight back by simply refusing to clean her up after she urinates and defecates. He has all the power in their relationship, he just doesn't understand that.

He could just buy healthier food, and in smaller quantities.

I can never understand how these super-huge people can afford all that they eat. 

And with her couponing, it looked like she was stockpiling it.

(I can't watch those couponing shows, because the only reason to buy huge amounts is if you're donating things to a shelter or some charity.  Most of the ones I saw doing it, were just greedy.)

 

[Armchair Critic]

While Penny is probably still getting disability, she was doing feeder porn.  Edgar was helping her with that.

 

What?!? Oh the humanity!

[KarmaG]

EWWWWW @ Penny doing any kind of porn.

[AdorkableWitch]

In one of the pop-ups, they said Edgar now works at an auto parts store. He comes home at lunch to help Penny with her toilet needs. So he may well be working 40 hours a week outside the home. While Penny is probably still getting disability, she was doing feeder porn. Edgar was helping her with that. I don’t know if she still does that (and I’m not willing to search for it – even I have limits). That may be the $500 per month she now claims to be supplementing by couponing.

Now that Liam’s older, Penny can order him around the way she does Edgar and call it her taking care of them. If she tells him to brush his teeth and has him bring her his clothes to “help” him dress, etc., in her warped mind she is working hard and being a good mom keeping the family together. After all, she cleaned him and dressed him. Of course, it is actually more work for downtrodden Edgar to get her all set up to make them sandwiches than it would be for him to just make them at the kitchen counter.

The miracle is that she doesn’t have a terrible infection, given that she’s pisses and shits in her bed. While Edgar may not be able to keep everything perfect, it is a testament to the care he provides that she is not septic. My brother is bed-ridden from a degenerative disease. At his care facility, they have him sit up every day for as long as possible. It has made him stronger, and it helps prevent pneumonia, blood clots and skin infections. Penny’s quarter-sized lesion is not an excuse to lie in bed. It is a reason to get up. But that would take effort, something she will not expend. While I hate the whole “I’m a food addict” mentality, Penny does show addict behavior in the way she manipulates and abuses others to get her needs met.

Food addiction is a legitimate issue. It's called Binge Eating Disorder or compulsive overeating I have struggled with it for many years. It's recognized in medical literature as well as addiction research.

[Oldernowiser]

Okay, I'm sort of afraid to ask but I'm even more afraid to google it...what's feeder porn?

[Oldernowiser]

Thanks...I think.

Also, yikes.

[charmed1]

He could just buy healthier food, and in smaller quantities.

Well Edgar mentioned that when he buys something healthy, she gets angry with him. That's why he was frantically calling her from the store while her phone was going to voicemail. Which I don't see how she couldn't answer the phone because it's not like she got up to use the bathroom, or walked into the kitchen and missed the call. And there was the time Edgar was trying to work with the nutritionist in the kitchen and Penny screamed and berated them from inside her pee/poop lair.

[purpleflowers]

That recipe does not sound like something Dr. Now would approve of. Sodium-laden and about the only thing in it that might be helpful is the beans for the protein factor (if they aren't full fat refried).  I made something similar but with tater tots instead of tortillas and no meat two or three times in a month and actually gained a few pounds. 

I agree that Edgar should refuse to buy her the food she wants. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by purpleflowers

[charmed1]

That recipe requires a sink and an oven. Two things Penny wont get up and use.

[Bellalisa]

If Penny had never met Edgar she would not be in this condition. She would be up and about to feed her own fat face. he is almost more the cause of her condition than she is! She is bed bound and he won't not do what she says ....he won't say no! What can she possibly do? come running after him? he is an idiot. 

[Oldernowiser]

An addict is often an absolute genius at manipulation, even when they don't have a hostage like Penny does with Liam.

Deprive an addict and they will make your life a living hell. Playing the victim card, flattery, screaming, tantrums, tears, threats, lies...there is no tactic too low or too devious. Add in Penny's narcissism...even worse.

If Liam weren't in the picture, I would respect Edgar for standing up or walking out. But since Liam is witness to all of this...I understand why over time and after a thousand nasty scenes Edgar just doesn't fight it anymore.

[Ocean Chick]

That casserole sounds really unhealthy.  Taco seasoning?  Full of sodium.  Condensed Cream of Mushroom soup?  Also full of sodium.  And you know she's using full fat refried beans.  Flour tortillas?  Lots of carbs, no nutrition.  And 2-3 cups of cheese?  For 3 people?  Who needs a full cup of cheese to eat at a meal?  The sour cream is just the cherry on top of sodium, fat and carbs.  Sounds like a recipe from the Duggers.

[Miss Chevious]

A lot of coupons are for processed foods. I buy a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables, boneless skinless chicken breasts and fish. There's never any coupons for those!

[KarmaG]

A lot of coupons are for processed foods. I buy a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables, boneless skinless chicken breasts and fish. There's never any coupons for those!

 

Every coupon she was shown looking at/clipping was for processed food. Production did a horrible (if not on purpose) job of blurring what she was looking at. One page had a very obvious pic of Combos snacks, another for Totino's Pizzas. And I don't for a minute believe any of it was for church. The woman doesn't attend church, she refuses to leave her bed for anything.

[aliya]

1) Along the lines of feeder porn - the other day at work YouTube just happened to pop up a video about a feeder couple. I listen to the internet,at work, but can't look at the pictures too much (for obvious reasons, they are paying me to work). This works pretty well for BBC documentaries or the news, but I swear, every time I couldn't believe what I was hearing and went to look at the video, they were showing a picture, of some huge naked woman. Basically a head and feet. Then you have this guy talking about heeding his woman, weighing her for the Guinness book of records, and being among the first to do feeder porn movies. Good googa mooga. Just when you think you've seen it all...

 

2) Reading all this stuff about Penny in her bed, I remembered having to use a bed pan a few times in the hospital. It is such an unnatural way to go, who the heck would want to do that for years on end? Jeez.

 

3) Penny should be shot for feeding that garbage to her kid.

[momofsquid]

I missed or have forgotten the news that Penny has an adult son. Was it mentioned on the show? The original or the WATN?

[momofsquid]

I saw it on her Twitter

Damn her, she's changed her Twitter to protected! I don't blame her of course. People were telling her the truth and she doesn't want to hear it.

[Cherrio]

That casserole sounds really unhealthy.  Taco seasoning?  Full of sodium.  Condensed Cream of Mushroom soup?  Also full of sodium.  And you know she's using full fat refried beans.  Flour tortillas?  Lots of carbs, no nutrition.  And 2-3 cups of cheese?  For 3 people?  Who needs a full cup of cheese to eat at a meal?  The sour cream is just the cherry on top of sodium, fat and carbs.  Sounds like a recipe from the Duggers.

I agree, its a great thing to eat if you want to gain weight.

[scowl]

I agree, its a great thing to eat if you want to gain weight.

Or if you're running a marathon the next day.

[KarmaG]

Or if you're running a marathon the next day.

 

No way. Too much sodium for that.

[scowl]

No way. Too much sodium for that.

Is that why I'm peeing every two miles?