S09.E08: Rock and a Hard Place

[DittyDotDot]

QuoteSheriff Mills calls Sam and Dean about a case involving multiple missing persons and a church chastity group. To figure out what is taking the victims, Sam and Dean go undercover and become born-again virgins.

 

I kinda liked this one better on re-watch--I'm not saying I now love it or anything crazy like that, just appreciate it a bit more than I did before. I never hated it, but really didn't have many feelings about it one way or the other. But, I have to admit I was laughing along a lot more than I remembered doing the first time. Actually, I remember being prepared to absolutely hate this episode the first time around because the promo had used the term "virgins" and this show doesn't have the best track record for such things, IMO.

 

Minus Dean acting kinda pervy and presumptuous before Suzy asks Dean to pray with her, I don't have a problem with the sex talk. In fact, I kinda love Dean's awkward overshare in the meeting--he ain't wrong, it is..sticky. Sam's "confession" is rather funny to me too. I defiantly have no issues with Dean and Suzy having adult consensual sexy times and both seemed to have a good time. Any regrets Suzy has for breaking her vow is all on her, IMO. I didn't care for how Dean didn't seem to respect that she and everyone else in the group had taken a vow--not just to abstain from sex, but be different and/or better people--but I never felt like Dean was trying to coerce or force Suzie to break that vow. He had totally backed off when she started in with the dirty talk, so I can't really see Dean as taking away her agency. Even though I did think he was a little pervy, presumptuous and maybe a bit skeevy with his insisting that he walk her home, lighting candles and such, Suzy made her own choice in the end. And, I'm actually kinda amused by the bad porn reenacting. I'm admittedly weird, though, so...

 

Anyhoo, the actress that plays Vesta is absolutely awesome, IMO. I love her! "I even got a sweater set"  HA! She's kinda in a similar vein to the kooky Christmas Gods--although those two will never ever be topped, IMO. I don't really understand why she was eating the livers, but that's really not important to me today, so whatever.

 

Plus, I do love that delightful Jodi person, so there's also that. "Don't open the door for me or anything" never fails to elicit a hearty laugh out of me. And, I love her saying that she doesn't make promises she can't keep. Which is really kinda the real discussion for this episode. You shouldn't make the vow unless you rally believe in the cause, it'll only end in failure. If you want to change your life and be a different and/or better person, you don't need to make unrealistic promises to make that happen.

 

Oh, and for a second there, I really thought Dean might come clean and we'd be done with this portion of the secrets and lies, but we wouldn't want to do that before the mid-season finale now would we?

 

Which leads me to a little aside: there's a deleted scene on the DVD that I understand why they cut, but actually helps me with what's going on with Sam. Its after Dean almost comes clean and Sam leaves the motel room looking all downtrodden. Jodi is driving away and stops to ask Sam what's with the look and Sam says Dean's doing it again; lying to him. Jodi asks about what. Sam looks away and The-Angel-In-A-Sam comes out, creepily cocks his head and says "Nothing, sheriff. Everything is just fine", and even more creepily smiles at her. So, Sam is aware something is rotten and Dean's story isn't really holding water anymore. Sheds a new light on Jodi and Sam's earlier scene where Jodi says Sam and Dean are something special and Sam looks like he's sucking on a lemon. But I understand why they cut it, it's got a weird tone to it and it also raises questions why Jodi wouldn't jump out of that truck and run over to Dean to tell him something was really wrong with Sam. Jared is especially creepy when the Angel comes out and there's no way Jodi wouldn't catch on to that, plus Sam calling her "sheriff."

Edited January 20, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, I had forgotten about this episode.  I hate it.  

[DittyDotDot]

I know you do, as you have every right to.

[Demented Daisy]

Ah, the beauty of art.  

 

And the beauty of a respectful discussion, even when the participants disagree.  ;-)

[Goldmoon]

I thought it would have worked for dramatic purposes, if the leader hadn't been a beautiful former porn star, or hadn't broken her vows. I guess she and Dean would never have ended up in Vesta's clutches, but I wanted the show to surprise me, and instead I got predictable.  I have heard about some Sam and Jodi shipping in fandom, and every time she comes on the show I look for it.  I wish the powers would go ahead and have them go on a date and see how they fit.

[GirlyGeek]

On rewatch this was a much better episode than I remembered. I laughed quite a bit. Also, I love Jodi. Jodi and Sam have great scenes together and some kind of chemistry, though I don't think I ship them or anything.

Ha ha, I dot think I got to enjoy the humor in this one so much the first time because I frequently watch SPN with my teenager and all the v-card and sex talk made me blush and clear my throat a lot. Lol. I'm such a prude

DDD, I think that deleted scene would have been really helpful for me to understand Sam at this point! I could see why he felt something was off, but I hadn't gotten a clear picture of why he was acting in certain ways re: Dean, so that scene would have been nice to have.

[DittyDotDot]

DDD, I think that deleted scene would have been really helpful for me to understand Sam at this point! I could see why he felt something was off, but I hadn't gotten a clear picture of why he was acting in certain ways re: Dean, so that scene would have been nice to have.

 

I know, and it also makes this whole Angel-in-a-Sam possession thing more heartbreaking now that I saw it. Before this, The-Angel-Who-Calles-Himself-Ezekiel only came out to help, save Sam's life and was healing Sam. So even though Sam was possessed without his knowledge--which I personally think would be awful--and I was sure he wasn't to be trusted, for the most part it didn't seem like much of a real problem. But this scene got me thinking...how many times had the angel taken over and wiped Sam's memories to cover up stuff like this? What else was that angel doing with Sam's body that Dean didn't even know about? It just made me feel really bad for Sam trying to piece it all together and probably wondering if he was losing his mind. I actually wish they'd done more with this part of the possession storyline, I think it would've helped with understanding Sam's POV quite a bit throughout the whole season.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This was a pretty light, fun episode until it got all heavy and serious at the end.  (boo).  I like light, fun episodes, if you can't tell.  :)

I really like both the boys hugging Jodi.  So nice to see them with a 'normal' friend.  :)

The whole part with Dean and Sam at the church and in the chastity group was hilarious!  

Things I learned from watching Supernatural: Sex is sticky. Well, I didn't actually learn that from SPN, but thanks for the reminder, show!  Reminds me of the "Love is Strange" song from Galavant.  (Not the oldie from Dirty Dancing.)  "Love is strange and sometimes kind of gross..."

I can't believe Suzie broke her vow so easily.  Yeah, I know - it was Dean.  But come on - she moved to this small town and changed her name because she didn't anyone to know who she was or what she'd done in the past and was trying to be a different person.  That's serious.  That's a commitment.  Then wham bam!  Along comes Dean and it's Wham Bam!   Eh, well, I'd have rather she been sorely tempted (and who wouldn't be SORELY tempted?) but not cave.  But then, they wouldn't have gotten taken, etc, etc, etc.  

And while I'm on that subject - why the hell did Suzie have copies of her porn movies in a drawer in her apartment so easily accessible?  If she was serious about changing her life, they wouldn't have been there.  If she was only playing a charade, then sure.  But I don't see the point of her playing a charade.  Could they not have had Dean figure it out some other way?

I did not see perky little Bonnie being Vesta.  That makes her earlier behavior when Sam and Dean were signing up even creepier.  

I was really hoping Sam would be the one to open the hatch and let Dean and the others out, cause how often does Sam get to save Dean?  But no - Dean - amazing man that he is (and apparently Supernaturally strong - I mean, did you see the size of that lid?) could bust open the hatch all by himself, with those heavy duty hinge flaps holding it in place.  Right.  He might have some competition going there with Charlie for Sue-type.

 Sam breaks my heart at the end.  He breaks my heart every time he thinks there's something wrong with him because of who he is inside.  

[sniff]  Now I have to go listen to Galavant songs to cheer myself up.

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/3/2016 at 8:21 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And while I'm on that subject - why the hell did Suzie have copies of her porn movies in a drawer in her apartment so easily accessible?  If she was serious about changing her life, they wouldn't have been there.  If she was only playing a charade, then sure.  But I don't see the point of her playing a charade.  Could they not have had Dean figure it out some other way?

Probably like how some alcoholics like to keep a bottle around? She probably opens that drawer at moments she's feeling weak to remind she's trying not to be that person anymore. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Probably like how some alcoholics like to keep a bottle around? She probably opens that drawer at moments she's feeling weak to remind she's trying not to be that person anymore. 

I did not know that this was a thing.  I would think keeping a bottle around (or drugs for a drug addict) would be too tempting and dangerous.  But I've never been in that situation, so I guess different things work for different people?  Still - I guess I could understand having the dvd's in a box in a closet or something - easily accessible, but not too easily - for the purpose you mention.  Having them right there, just seems...I don't know...like she wasn't really ready to let go of that life, not that she used them to bolster some flagging resolve.  But...eh...like I said, different strokes.  

[Demented Daisy]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Probably like how some alcoholics like to keep a bottle around? She probably opens that drawer at moments she's feeling weak to remind she's trying not to be that person anymore. 

And yet, those dvds are what led to her giving up her vow.  *sigh*  I hate this episode so much.

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

And yet, those dvds are what led to her giving up her vow.  *sigh*  I hate this episode so much.

I don't know, I think Suzy gave up her vow because she didn't really believe in it in the first place. To me, this is what the episode is really about. Don't make promises you can't keep, it's only a set up for failure. Granted, usually the failure wouldn't result in a pagan god abducting you and eating your liver...but whatever. ;)

Edited August 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't know, I think Suzy gave up her vow because she didn't really believe in it in the first place. To me, this is what the episode is really about. Don't make promises you can't keep, it's only a set up for failure. Granted, usually the failure wouldn't result in a pagan god abducting you and eating your liver...but whatever. ;)

Well, that certainly was Jodi's opinion on the matter, but I'm not convinced.  I think she wanted to keep her vow -- she seemed to be doing fine with it until someone told her it wasn't a vow worth keeping.  (Not literally, of course.)  I think she struggled more with the person she used to be, not the person she was at that moment.

I just bristle at the idea that someone can tell you what kind of person you should be.  Dean wanted her to be the person she used to be, not the person she currently was.  I mean, what if she had been an alcoholic?  Dean talking her into getting a drink at the bar would have created outrage, I expect.  But because she wasn't explicitly stated to be an addict, convincing her that her old way of life was the life she should be leading is okay?

I keep going back to her remorse after they had been abducted.  She didn't seem particularly proud of what they had done and I don't think it's just because they were kidnapped by a crazy god.  Not to mention, Dean never even notices her feelings after the fact, nor is it ever addressed.  The last thing he says to her -- after she's expressed some remorse to him -- is that she's wrong.  Not another word after that.  It's terrible writing.  It makes it seem like Dean got what he wanted and tossed her aside afterwards.  Not even a goodbye kiss, like so many of his other lovers have gotten.

But, hey, it's my hang up, I know.  

Edited August 5, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, that certainly was Jodi's opinion on the matter, but I'm not convinced.  I think she wanted to keep her vow -- she seemed to be doing fine with it until someone told her it wasn't a vow worth keeping.  (Not literally, of course.)  I think she struggled more with the person she used to be, not the person she was at that moment.

I just bristle at the idea that someone can tell you what kind of person you should be.  Dean wanted her to be the person she used to be, not the person she currently was.  I mean, what if she had been an alcoholic?  Dean talking her into getting a drink at the bar would have created outrage, I expect.  But because she wasn't explicitly stated to be an addict, convincing her that her old way of life was the life she should be leading is okay?

I keep going back to her remorse after they had been abducted.  She didn't seem particularly proud of what they had done and I don't think it's just because they were kidnapped by a crazy god.  Not to mention, Dean never even notices her feelings after the fact, nor is it ever addressed.  The last thing he says to her -- after she's expressed some remorse to him -- is that she's wrong.  Not another word after that.  It's terrible writing.  It makes it seem like Dean got what he wanted and tossed her aside afterwards.  Not even a goodbye kiss, like so many of his other lovers have gotten.

I guess I don't see it as her deciding it wasn't a vow worth keeping until Dean Winchester came along and told her so. I think she was struggling with it long before Dean told her she was the good dreams. And, I'd argue that Dean isn't telling her who to be, but pointing out that being a porn star isn't necessarily something she needed to be ashamed of, nor does it define who she actually is. If Suzy used a "terrible person." as she claimed, I doubt it's because she was in a bunch of dirty films.

I think Suzy took the vow because she thought it would make her someone different if she stopped having sex, but it wasn't the sex she actually disliked about herself. Whether or not she truly believed it was worth keeping or not, she took a vow and broke it, and I'd be disappointed in myself too.  Dean Winchester telling me I'm wrong really wouldn't change much about that for me.

If Suzy was a sex addict, I didn't get that from this episode at all. But, falling off the wagon is ultimately the addict's responsibility. I think Dean's disgusting in his skeevy attempts to get in Suzy's pants, but no one made Suzy have sex. Any regrets she has is hers, IMO. That doesn't excuse Dean's behavior, though, but his responsibility is for his own choices, not Suzy's.

[Demented Daisy]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think she was struggling with it long before Dean told her she was the good dreams.

I don't see this at all.  She was leading the group -- that's not the action of someone who is struggling.  How do you help others when you don't believe in your own vow?  She seemed confident in her vow, even offering to individual counseling to Dean.  But mileage varies, of course.

Just out of curiosity -- what did you see that made you think she was struggling with her vow?

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Any regrets she has is hers, IMO.

Oh, I agree.  I don't think she was trying to shift blame onto Dean, nor am I insinuating that Dean forced her.  Nothing of the sort.  My problem has always been with Dean and his attitude towards her.  Even before he knew she was in porn, he was determined to sleep with her.  He knew that it was not something she wanted in her life, but he was determined.  That's not the act of someone respecting another, IMO.  

In the end, I wouldn't have hated the episode half as much if Dean had been part of this conversation:

Quote

 

HONOR You broke, too, huh?

SUZY Guess I'm not as strong as I thought I was.

HONOR [laying her hand on SUZY's] God forgives. You told me that yourself.

 

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I don't see this at all.  She was leading the group -- that's not the action of someone who is struggling.  How do you help others when you don't believe in your own vow?  She seemed confident in her vow, even offering to individual counseling to Dean.  But mileage varies, of course.

Just out of curiosity -- what did you see that made you think she was struggling with her vow?

Like I said, I think Dean's being skeevy in the episode and I don't care for his attitude one bit. Dean just doesn't get it. It's disappointing for sure, but if Suzy really felt secure in her vow, nothing Dean said would've mattered. She may have led the group, but she can still have doubts. Even priests have doubts. 

I think Suzy took the vow, because she thought being opposite of everything she used to be would fix her somehow. I'm just not sure she was really all that committed to abstinence as much as committed to being a different person. It wasn't overtly stated, but that's the vibe I got off all Suzy's comments anyway.

[Demented Daisy]

At the end of the day, we can agree that Dean was being skeevy.  ;-)

[Dobian]

Dean at the chastity group meeting, hahahahahaha!  That in itself was like a cheesy opening scene to a Casa Erotica porno.

[JunebugWA]

Sam: "I'm a virgin".

Jodi: "No, for this, we need the real McCoy".

Hehehe - to me, that was the funniest exchange of the entire episode. 

[sarthaz]

So, I looked up Susie Abromeit because every time this episode comes on I think I've seen her in something else (no, not Casa Erotica), and under the Trivia section of her IMDb Biography it says: "She was on the Dean's list".  Still laughing ...

[SueB]

TNT Rewatch Relook ... or "how well does this episode age?"

I'm going to have to go "Doylist" and "Watson" on this one. "Doylist" factoring in the BTS stuff, the writers, cast, etc..  Watson being "in story only". Note: NO SPOILERS in this comment.

Doylist:
- This is a Jenny Klein episode. She is the horror trope champion.  All things "squick" is her domain.  And she has a quirky sense of humor (think Ben Edlund - lite).  When I look at her list of episodes, http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Jenny_Klein, I can see how Rock and a Hard Place fits.  The underground vault, the ripped nails in the wall, the human sacrifice.  Right up her ally.  And the quirky humor is right up her ally.  "I'll be a squirrel in a skirt." Well that's a funny line.  It's as out-there as Bonnie's chipmunk faux personality.
- Kripke used to make entire episodes based on a single "gag".  In this case, I'm pretty sure the gag was "Dean sleeps with a porn star turned chastity counselor".  OR "Dean knocks 'porn star' off his bucket list."  But I'd be surprised if that gag was actually Jenny Klein's contribution.  I see that as pure Bob Singer.  Like they set that up as an episode theme, Jenny TOOK that and made a horror story around it.  The somewhat disconnect between the "gag" and "quirky horror story" is part of why there's a bit of choppiness here in the writing.
- Dean is skeevy.  Well who the hell came up with that?  I'm going to attribute MOST of this to Jenny's interpretation of the "gag", her predilection for "Sam is sensitive and Dean is rough around the edges" character understanding.  Ultimately, no matter HOW it's played, Dean encourages the leader of a chastity support group to break her vow.  Maybe at first he thought she wasn't really feeling the "Vow", but after the "pray with me" and her speech, he knew she was serious. Clearly he thought she was misguided (based on dialog) and clearly he did not put her emotional needs first.  That's not usually Dean if he respects the woman (Suzy), which he clearly did.  But I'm also going to give some attribution to Jensen Ackles on this one.  He did a lot of work to show us his "thoughts" via facials.  And it was a little OTT.  Which he does on occasion.  OTOH, he did a GOOD job of conveying that in his worldly opinion, having dealt with REAL monsters, Suzy was a good person and not a monster.  He also did a bit 'overwhelmed fan-boy'.  That helped offset the skeevy to some extent.  So... I'd say this was a slightly uneven "tone" from Dean this episode.  Mostly due to writing and logic fail, some due to actor choices.  A BTS moment: apparently the actress who played Suzy lectured Jensen about not using tongue (as if he WOULD -- it's not something they typically do in acting) and then proceeded to 'dive right in' when the scene was played. So maybe there's a hint of annoyance there for this actress.  Although I can't say anything specific that he did.  Finally, Jenny failed to write (or the director cut) any closure scene with Suzy.  That's just not right.
- John MacCarthy as director. John's a First AD (like Kevin Parks). He's only directed 3 episodes,  http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=John_MacCarthy. The first, I thought, was OUTSTANDING. The second and third were .. misses.  I'd say he failed to compensate for script weaknesses and may have made some choices that made it worse.  If, for example, Jenny wrote a closure scene with Suzy, and he cut it for time... that's on him.  We have no idea about that though.  If was a pretty "by the book" directing job but the final product felt a bit choppy and many logic errors sailed through.  Example: a drop of nose blood on a handkerchief is not enough to truly 'stain' the oak.  He should have asked for a better option.

Bottom Line Doylist: there are "seams" in the story and some poor characterization in this episode that reflects the weaknesses of the writer and episode premise.  On the other hand, the horror, Jodi's involvement, Sam's characterization, etc.. all were pretty good.  This episode's quirky moments (ex: Dean describing sex) were marred by an inconsistent tone throughout.  

 

Watsonian:
- Sam is definitely showing signs of "battery drain" from Ezekiel's healing.  It's a little surprising that Dean took him on a case, but it's Jody.  And Jody is family so he probably thought it would be okay.  
- Dean's 'misbehavior' at the Chastity group is just him blowing off steam.  He tells that story (and gets a little carried away) because he's got zero respect for elevating virginity.  He made that clear when the dragons took the virgins.  He doesn't mind virginity, but he doesn't think being non-virgin is anything to be ashamed about.  He thinks these people are judging him (even if they don't know it). And he toys with them a bit by offering some verbal temptation (and going a bit far) while barely maintaining his cover.  He was having fun at their expense.  A bit mean-spirited. But Dean doesn't have ANY tolerance for "holier than thou" people.  Now Jody being "Churchy" took him by surprise. Because Jody is NOT "holier than thou".  So he doesn't judge or tease her.  
- Sam and Jody team up and do a great job researching the suspect while having a lovely conversation about the special bond the brothers have (which, of course, is something Dean would not be able to swallow... as he's currently lying his ass off to his brother).  But everything about Jody is pretty much pragmatism, compassion, and bravery.  No wonder the boys admire her so much.
- Sam demonstrates that he could STILL pass the SAT's buy calculating (in his head): "If a train leaves Chicago going 50 miles an hour..."
- Dean's intial response to walking the "teacher" home was likely 'don't walk alone', but he immediately turns it into an opportunity for sexual conquest/comfort.  He's sincere when he feels he knows her and besides the fact that she's very beautiful, she's very helpful and kind.  I don't think Dean has any mean-spiritedness regarding Suzy. Dean's life has been pretty shitty as of late and if there is anything Dean seeks when he needs comfort, it's sex and alcohol.  But when Suzy's initially prayerful, sad and very sincere about chastity, he seems to give up his hopes.  Then he finds the porno DVD covers and now, instead of seeing Suzy the 'chastity counselor', he sees a woman that clearly featured in MANY of his fantasies (Carmelita).  He does sincerely try to tell her that she is NOT a monster for having done porn and that she's the stuff of the "good dreams".  In Dean's worldview, she's a hero to him. And so when she changes her tone and says "I'm here now", Dean pretty much stops thinking with the big brain.  It's not a valid excuse, but he's happy to conveniently overlook the emotional impact to Suzy.  He sees "willing woman of his fantasies" and doesn't look back.  It's selfish, but Dean has a certain "absoluteness" to him that doesn't help in this situation.  In his mind, anyone who sees Suzy as a monster is absolutely wrong and he thinks Suzy should be proud of herself.  What he fails to take into account is that clearly Suzy has made a major life change over this issue and it affects her deeply.  Yes, she was absolutely willing, but he probably should have thought about whether or not she would have regrets later given her specific circumstances.  But Dean doesn't do that.  And that's the part that makes him selfish here.  Someone being shamed into virginity (which is how he sees it), is just so wrong in his worldview, he doesn't see pushing them to reject that as remotely wrong.  It's a LOT more complicated than that but not in Dean's worldview.  Now, when Dean said he wanted to join a Mariachi band just to be near her, if Suzy had responded with "I'm glad you appreciated my work and that it meant alot to you... but it's just not who I am anymore." I'm certain he would have nodded and literally backed away to show he respects her choice.  But she clearly showed interest in sex by saying "I'm here now" and he then went into roleplay.  Which is a little TMI for me personally, but hey, I'm not as sexually liberated as Dean.  
- Suzy's actions and subsequent impact are, IMO, one that I think will ultimately be hopeful.  First, given that she, in fact, is VERY familiar with sex, Dean's speech probably reminded her as well how good sex is.  But she's not stupid, her focus is actually on the fact that four friends are missing.  Some of the members of the APU group are very tightly wound and judgemental (Tammy, Vesta). Others are just trying to find answers (sublimation girl, Suzy, Honor) to a conflict they have.  Not everyone in the group is a hypocrite or judgy.  So Suzy steers the group as best she can because she believes this is the correct direction for her life to take and she clearly has regrets from her previous profession.  When confronted by Dean regarding her past, her sense of shame comes out.  So WHY sleep with him?  My answer is that 1) clearly he knew his way around sex if he can heat up a room by just talking about it, 2) he was utterly sincere in his appreciation for her old life (something she probably rarely, if ever, heard from others), 3) he's pretty much a hot dude, and 4) he's not a moron, he seems reasonably intelligent for what little she knows of him.  I suspect it was his sincere hero worship that really caught her attention.  And that probably feels pretty good to someone who has surrounded herself with a sense of shame.  Later, when talking to Honor, she's definitely feeling regret.  She's feeling judged.  Not because she didn't enjoy the sex (clearly she did), but because the supernatural things happening feel like punishment.  But in the end, they are in fact rescued.  The hypocrisy and immorality of Neil is revealed when he argues for throwing Honor to a monster.  When she stops and looks at the events, she'll see that it was an evil being trying to kill them for having sex. Not God.  And that people like Honor, who also liked sex, and Dean are more in keeping with the attitude she admires.  In the end, I think the events will help her to put away some of her shame and start to think about what really matters in terms of good and evil.  Who the REAL monsters are.  Hopefully, she'll assess this information and realize that living with a secret shame is not of value.  She's not likely to go back to porno, but she may stop looking at herself as a former monster.  Which is ultimately a VERY good outcome.
- Honor was exceptionally smart, resourceful, and kind.  I'm kinda bothered that Paster Fred (who looked older), slept with her.  He's in a position of moral authority over her.  I'm not so sad that he's not around to attempt to continue a relationship with Honor. I don't think it was in her best interests.  Hopefully, she'll gain some confidence from surviving this ordeal and she'll also get perspective regarding who are the good guys and who are not.  
- Finally, we have Dean ready to come clean with Sam. Dean is still burdened with guilt, lying to Sam. But when Sam starts to blame himself for being inherently "not right". This is shame for who he is, not guilt over some action. And Dean just won't let him take that on.  Dean is ultimately put between "a Rock and a Hard Place" by Ezekiel.  Sam's life before Sam's emotional well-being.  And now he knows Ezekiel is listening all the time.  He TRUSTS Ezekiel and is willing to let it get a little emotionally worse because Ezekiel is promising it's almost over.

Bottom Line Watsonian: This case was about shame and guilt.  The "virgins" who broke their vows may feel guilty about doing that but they shouldn't feel "shame".  Dean, who is burdened so heavily by guilt these days, immediately rejects any shame associated with sex.  And he also can't stand Sam experience shame OR guilt for something he didn't do.  In the end, when caught between "A Rock (Ezekiel) and a Hard Place (Sam's shame)', Dean takes on MORE guilt by letting Sam feel a sense of shame longer.  

 

Overall: A bit of a swing and a miss.  There's some lofty goals but the script (to highlight the difference between reasonable guilt and debilitating shame) and execution don't really bring home the message.  Too much time spent on the "Dean beds his fantasy" gag and a missing coda with Suzy undermine the message of the episode.  

Edited November 28, 2016 by SueB
ETA: Sam's SAT skillz

[MysteryGuest]

Dean may have offered to walk Suzy home, hoping to score, but I don't think he pushed her into anything.  In fact, he tried to make her feel better about herself.  He'd have absolutely left it at that, if she hadn't made the comment about how he was "with her now".  At that point, she totally came on to him.  And even after they were finished, she's the one who said "I've really missed that".  She didn't sound at all remorseful or guilt-ridden at that point.  I think it was only when she was back amongst the people she'd been trying to help that she began to feel a little bad about giving in to her desires so quickly.  That, and the fact that they were now caught and potentially going to die.  That has a way of making you reflect on your choices a bit.

[bettername2come]

Always happy to see Jody again. I like the reveal that Jody's been going to church since she got hexed. I think we get to see a lot interesting things with Jody and how hunting has changed her life throughout the series and I enjoy that. It seems like a natural progression of events and she still gets to have some semblance of a normal life, unlike most hunters we meet. Definitely see what the Sam/Jody shippers are talking about in this one. They have good chemistry here and the zombie episode. Love her calling Vesta "Lindsay Lohan."

I liked Suzy. I liked Dean at the chastity meeting. I was yelling "trail of dead women, trail of dead women" when Sam was asked why he wanted to make a vow of chastity. Dean having a spare cell phone is one of the smartest things this show's ever done. Like him protecting Honor from Neil. Tammy was great. That hotel room is super-plaid even by Winchester standards.

"Dear boy, you're all duct tape and safety pins inside. How are you alive?" This is such a great line. Poor Sam, not knowing the truth and just wondering why people keep commenting on there being something wrong with him. Also, why do Jared's former horror movie co-stars keep trying to kill him? First Paris Hilton, now Lindsay Booth. 

On 8/5/2016 at 9:14 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Granted, usually the failure wouldn't result in a pagan god abducting you and eating your liver...but whatever. ;)

And it's quotes like this that make episode discussion so fun. I got a good laugh out of this one. 

[Hanahope]

Heh interesting seeing Lindsay Booth, whom I only know from the Librarians, where she has worn sweater sets.  

Another reference to Jesus.  Is he ever going to show up and clean up this mess?

Sam and Dean as born again virgins is fun, especially Dean. Course it didn't last long. 

Jodi is the boss, getting the stick out of her body and getting off the altar very quickly.

and yes another clue to Sam that he's not right , and it sounds like he's not healing much.

[Wayward Son]

And just as I was commenting on finding s9 Dean more tolerable than before this episode came along! Yes, she ultimately consented to sex, which does not make it rape (despite what some of the extreme meta at the time said). However, getting an invite back to a woman’s house under false pretences and rummaging through her private drawers are both still sleasy as hell moves Dean, bleh!  In addition to this, I also hate when either brother ignores a call from the other for the sake of a hook up! Unprofessionalism in their line of work can cost lives for crying out loud. 

 

On a brighter note, the Sam and Jody scenes were delightful! Kim and Jared have such great chemistry :) 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

and rummaging through her private drawers are both still sleasy as hell moves Dean, bleh!

Hold up.

21 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

And just as I was commenting on finding s9 Dean more tolerable than before this episode came along! Yes, she ultimately consented to sex, which does not make it rape (despite what some of the extreme meta at the time said). However, getting an invite back to a woman’s house under false pretences and rummaging through her private drawers are both still sleasy as hell moves Dean, bleh!  In addition to this, I also hate when either brother ignores a call from the other for the sake of a hook up! Unprofessionalism in their line of work can cost lives for crying out loud. 

They were both at the church under false pretenses because they were working a case even though they used their real names. But neither were there to really become born again virgins.

Who the hell would think that was rape? He never actually attempted to seduce her once at her apt, especially once she asked him to pray with her, he didn't pursue it again.

Alps, Dean  didn't just  willy nilly start rummaging through her dresser.  The drawer was partially open already. He set the books down on the dresser to take Sams call and he saw her picture on the DVD. He opened it further to look at the DVD and then talked to Sam explaining he remembered where he knew her face.

Then when she came back to the room he didn't deny seeing her DVD. He teased her about it and she was embarrassed that he caught her secret. He wanted  to make her feel better about her past life and told her there was nothing wrong with her being in porn. And in fact she kissed him first.

Edited October 31, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They were both at the church under false pretenses because they were working a case even though they used their real names. But neither were there to really become born again virgins.

Yes, they were both there at the Church under false pretenses, but that was in order to complete the hunt not to have sex. While Dean went back to the apartment hoping to seduce Suzy while she was simply trying to be a good leader and give him some reading material to help him keep his vows. There is a difference between misleading someone in order to save their life and misleading someone in order to have sex with them. 

 

My reasons for reading the Dean/Suzie situation are as follows: When the topic first comes up they share the following exchange

Quote

SUZY They confide. Abstinence is -- it's really rough without support and education. Hey, you know what? I have some great books on the vow that really helped me. I-I live close. I'll just go grab them.

DEAN Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. With a, uh, with a kidnapper on the loose?

SUZY No, I'll be fine.

DEAN Tell you what -- why don't I walk with you just to be safe, okay? Just give me one second.

The fact she originally intends to go and collect the book herself suggests to me that her offer was genuine and there were no ulterior motives on her part. I don't think her offer was in anyway an invitation for the two of them to have sex on the sly If Dean's motives were pure i.e. he was only concerned with her safety all he had to do was say he didn't need the books, but just needed to talk or something to that effect. In addition to this, he is pretty blunt about the fact he has more than just keeping her safe in mind when he talks to Sam several moments later.

Quote

DEAN [walking up *grinning*] Guess who's taking the teacher home. [gives a straight face] Research.

SAM You really think you're gonna hit that? Dean, she's the chastity counselor.

Now, admittedly, quoting the transcript isn't overly great evidence, but the way Jensen plays it along with the lighting of the candle makes it pretty clear to me Dean (initially at the very least) had seduction in mind. So yes luring a woman back to her home under false pretenses was an extremely sleasy move on his part IMO, but YMMV. 

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Who the hell would think that was rape? He never actually attempted to seduce her once at her apt, especially once she asked him to pray with her, he didn't pursue it again.

 

I saw quite a lot of claims along these lines when the episode  aired. As I said, it is not a belief I hold so I don't have any arguments to support the 'it was rape' interpretation, which I consider a gross over exaggeration of the situation He behaved somewhat sleazily (as I argued above), but Suzy ultimately consented and kissed him first so the actual act of sex was very much consensual. I can only guess the thoughts of other fans, but my guess would be it came down to two main things.

 

1. Fans who dislike Dean and are inclined to see the worst of him wanted to use his behaviour here to support their beliefs about the character i.e. they're the ones who would argue Dean has abused Sam his whole life. This is NOT a belief I personally hold so there's no need to defend Dean ;). I may have my issues with Dean, but this isn't one of them.

2. Fans (and not just the haters) may have been projecting a lot of their general anger at Dean on to the situation. When this episode first aired there were a lot of fans (myself included) who were pretty pissed at Dean for his part in Ezekiel possessing Sam and the non-consensual issues involved there. A lot of fans consider that to be a Supernatural variant of rape and since they saw him as condoning one form of rape they were ready to interpret him as being willing to involve himself in the more traditional sense. Again, while I have my own issues with the possession (which I don't want to get into this thread) I don't see the Suzy situation that way. I'm just considering some of the reasons fans may have jumped to such an exaggerated interpretation of the situation.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I saw quite a lot of claims along these lines when the episode  aired. As I said, it is not a belief I hold so I don't have any arguments to support the 'it was rape' interpretation, which I consider a gross over exaggeration of the situation He behaved somewhat sleazily (as I argued above), but Suzy ultimately consented and kissed him first so the actual act of sex was very much consensual. I can only guess the thoughts of other fans, but my guess would be it came down to two main things

 

I never said Dean's intentions were pure of heart nor did I say he didn't want to have sex with her. The point is that he didn't act on whatever desire he had for her until SHE put the moves on him and that was of her own free will and choice. He didn't even proposition her during his comments about her being "the good dreams". He complimented her on her sexual prowess on the videos she made. She was flattered and came on to him.

I'm gonna nitpick "Ultimately consented". That makes it sound like Dean was hounding her for sex and she relented or something. That's not what happened. Dean didn't sit next to her until she asked him to sit with her and pray as she was crying over her friends. He did give her the once over with his eyes but he literally shook his head as if to say to himself "Put those thoughts away".

IMO, Dean was an ass by joking with Sam about trying to get lucky with the chastity counselor. Yeah that wasn't cool. I do think he violated her privacy by reaching into the already open drawer, which wasn't a dresser now that I think about it. It was the entertainment center in her living room.. Dean fanboyed when he realized who she was and told her that she was the good dreams.  She was the aggressor in their consensual sex. Not Dean. 
 

Quote

 

 

 

DEAN Hey. Or should I say... "Hola"?

SUZY [looking confused] Uh, why?

DEAN No reason. No reason.

SUZY A-are you okay?

DEAN Me? Ah -- I'm great. Why?

SUZY Uh, you seem... I-I don't know, nervous.

DEAN [Laughing nervously] Nervous? No. I'm not nervous... Carmelita.

SUZY [face falls in resignation] So, you've seen my...work. Listen, I don't blame you if you want to be assigned a new counselor. I-I get it.

DEAN No. No, no. Are you -- are you kidding me? I mean, you're -- you're a freaking legend.

SUZY [in a panic] No! I-I am -- I'm not that girl anymore. I moved here. I changed my name. That girl was -- was horrible.

DEAN [interrupting her] Listen, uh, Suzy, I've seen a lot of awful things, stuff of nightmares, okay? But you -- you're the good dreams.

[SUZY smiles slightly]

DEAN And nobody in Hartford knows?

SUZY Yeah, what am I supposed to say? "Oh, yeah, hey, I used to be a porn star. Let's pray"?

DEAN Well... They do not appreciate you. I mean... the things you can do -- the scene with the tacos.

SUZY [smile getting wider] Yeah.

DEAN Made me want to join a mariachi band just to be near you.

SUZY [looking at DEAN enticingly] Well, you are now.

DEAN [suddenly comprehending what she is saying] I am, aren't I?

[SUZY moves in on DEAN]

SUZY You're not like... the other guys in town, are you? You're kind of a... a bad boy.

DEAN I don't know. Why don't you ask me that in Spanish?

SUZY ¿Eres un Chico malo?

DEAN Sí

[SUZY quickly closes the gap between them and kisses DEAN passionately. He pulls her head in and hungrily kisses her back. He lift her up on to his hips while they are still kissing and together they slowly fall out of the camera view.]

 

[Sassyfangirl]

I liked this episode and dean was awesome and his speech was sexy:) susy was lucky and I disagree with wayward son. And come on any woman would be crazy to turn down dean just saying. Plus she wanted him too duh. So I don’t get why it was wrong cause it wasn’t. 

[Iju]

On 1/20/2015 at 10:00 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Which leads me to a little aside: there's a deleted scene on the DVD that I understand why they cut, but actually helps me with what's going on with Sam. Its after Dean almost comes clean and Sam leaves the motel room looking all downtrodden. Jodi is driving away and stops to ask Sam what's with the look and Sam says Dean's doing it again; lying to him. Jodi asks about what. Sam looks away and The-Angel-In-A-Sam comes out, creepily cocks his head and says "Nothing, sheriff. Everything is just fine", and even more creepily smiles at her. So, Sam is aware something is rotten and Dean's story isn't really holding water anymore. Sheds a new light on Jodi and Sam's earlier scene where Jodi says Sam and Dean are something special and Sam looks like he's sucking on a lemon. But I understand why they cut it, it's got a weird tone to it and it also raises questions why Jodi wouldn't jump out of that truck and run over to Dean to tell him something was really wrong with Sam. Jared is especially creepy when the Angel comes out and there's no way Jodi wouldn't catch on to that, plus Sam calling her "sheriff."

omg! that does seem creepy! it must have not fit in the time schedule for the episode, that's why it was cut dangit.

------

setting whether dean should have looked in the drawer or not aside, why tf did suzy have those DVDs if she was trying to forget her past???? and i know dean was telling the truth when he said that she was part of the "good" side according to him, but it's not just the shame she could face as a porn star, it's porn itself, which is a hugely sexually abusive industry. she could be trying to "revirginize" herself because of that, to start anew. but there's still the question: why did she have a DVD (or anything reminding her of her past) in her home? does not compute.

jody is awesome, IF SPN KILLS HER I WILL BOMB THE BUILDING MYSELF. i partly like her because of her connection with bobby, but she is a likable character on her own. i like how more often she is appearing :) 

and as for sam, why is no-one giving jared is freaking due? is he some master at subtle acting or something? for him to not only change his body language and speech  (HAH, child's play for noobs), but even change his facial expressions as zeke is AMAZING, but then he goes right back to sam's normal self so casually and easily it CAN'T be something simple to do. i admire him every single time he goes back and forth. utter awe.

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, Iju said:

omg! that does seem creepy! it must have not fit in the time schedule for the episode, that's why it was cut dangit.

------

setting whether dean should have looked in the drawer or not aside, why tf did suzy have those DVDs if she was trying to forget her past???? and i know dean was telling the truth when he said that she was part of the "good" side according to him, but it's not just the shame she could face as a porn star, it's porn itself, which is a hugely sexually abusive industry. she could be trying to "revirginize" herself because of that, to start anew. but there's still the question: why did she have a DVD (or anything reminding her of her past) in her home? does not compute.

jody is awesome, IF SPN KILLS HER I WILL BOMB THE BUILDING MYSELF. i partly like her because of her connection with bobby, but she is a likable character on her own. i like how more often she is appearing :) 

and as for sam, why is no-one giving jared is freaking due? is he some master at subtle acting or something? for him to not only change his body language and speech  (HAH, child's play for noobs), but even change his facial expressions as zeke is AMAZING, but then he goes right back to sam's normal self so casually and easily it CAN'T be something simple to do. i admire him every single time he goes back and forth. utter awe.

Dude, have you watched all these episodes today? 

[Iju]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dude, have you watched all these episodes today? 

lol no, but i watched them all up to this ep in a span of 2 days. it's not me, it's my mother i tell you. she keeps watching them! she was going to watch even more today and i had already told her to slow down, so i decided to leave and watch in my own time. but she slowed down for now. so right now i haven't seen anything beyond this ep. it just took me a while to comment on all the seasons up to now that's all. sorry for the confusion if that's what you mean lol

[The Companion]

I didn't love this episode. I am not going to sit here and dissect Dean's actions except to say he felt out of character to me because he is usually so good at blending. The fact that he didn't seem to take it seriously and the speech in the meeting bothered me because it didn't feel like Dean.

Beyond that, the show gets a huuuuuge eyeroll from me for the way the members of the group were treated. Look at this woman. She is fat. She eats instead of sex. Look at this woman. She writes poetry and is petty. Ugh. How about even the slightest nuance here? I don't know why, but it bugged me. 

I do love Lindy Booth from The Librarians and did enjoy the horror aspects. I also enjoy Jodi and Sam, so those parts were pretty good.