S09.E07: Bad Boys

[DittyDotDot]

A new chapter in Dean's past is revealed when he gets a phone call from an old friend regarding a possible haunting.

 

I don't know what it is about this episode that makes me love it so. It should really annoy the crap outta me with all the retconning and screwy screw ups, but I think I'm just predisposed to love any Supernatural episode with a good old fashioned dig up and salt 'n burn. ;)

 

I'll never understand TPTBs getting so worked up about that kid looking older than 14 so they changed Dean's age to 16 in ADR. Its easier for me to accept the kid is 14 than for Dean to be 16 in this story. Sometimes the things they get caught up on and overreact to is mindboggling to me. Anyway, since the story was scripted for Dean to be 14 and it makes more sense that way, I'll just always hear those two lines the way they were originally intended.

 

I'll also never understand their need to make things so damn complicated unnecessarily. Why the big lie about Dean being lost on a hunt? Why's there always got to be secrets and lies on this show anyway? I get that some of it was Dean didn't want Sam to think ill of John for leaving him there for what seems like a couple months. And, I don't think Dean wanted Sam to know there was ever a time in his life he considered leaving the life and/or Sam, but the mental gymnastics I have to do to line this up in my head isn't easy. 

 

Plus, a rugaru hunt...really? They didn't even know what a rugaru was till S4, but apparently they did. Whatever.

 

However, the episode actually works for me despite these missteps. I love it being After School Special--Dean version. What I mean is, I love that we get to see the moment in Dean's life where he saw there was another path to take, but instead of moving away from the family business, as Sam did, Dean made the choice to commit to the hunting life and never looked back. It goes to the very core of who Dean is, IMO. I love that Dean was on the wrestling team, taking guitar lessons and when he blurts out that he wants to be a rock star I just fall to pieces! I also adore him talking about how fixing cars are like puzzles. Its one of the few times this show has managed to do some retconning and it actually enriches the story rather than tears it down, IMO.

 

I like Sonny despite me having a hard time believing Dean's been keeping in touch with this guy for 20ish years, but Sam had no idea.  I kinda love Robin, too. The scene at the diner where she pretends not to know Dean is wonderful, IMO, as is the one where Dean says they didn't know everything when they were 16 ::ahem..., I mean 14::. Mostly though, I really like little Timmy, I thought the little actor was good. He and Jensen's handshaking scene is one of my favorites. Plus, the overall look of this episode is a stand out, IMO. I always liked the more desaturated look of the show in the early days and I appreciate that they didn't make the flashbacks so icky yellow like usual. BTW, my general dislike of flashbacks doesn't really factor in here either. I wish they would find better ways to transition to the flashbacks, but I shouldn't expect too much at once, right?

 

Anyway, what is it about ghost stories and this show that makes me lose my mind?

[Demented Daisy]

This episode gets a solid "meh" from me.  I'm not sure what lesson teenage Dean was supposed to learn that he didn't learn before.  Am I supposed to believe that Dean made a conscious choice to stay with his family?  It makes for a nice story, but John had been brainwashing him for 10 years.  It's why he changed his mind as soon as he saw Sam.  He couldn't have chosen to put himself above his family if he wanted to.

 

Ugh, I'm such a cynic.  I should love this episode, but it doesn't tug at my heartstrings like it should.  Maybe I should mourn the life Dean could have had, but I can't.  For the most part, I think Dean's had a pretty good life.  Saving people's lives can't be all bad.  (Since I'm an 18 year military spouse, maybe I sympathize with Dean's life of sacrifice a little too much.)

 

I know, I know, Dean will choose Sam above all.  Even way back when.  But didn't we know that already?  I guess I just don't know what I'm supposed to take away from this episode.

[DittyDotDot]

See, I don't see it as Dean choosing Sam over a better life, but then again I've never thought John actually brainwashed Dean to put Sam first, either--I know, I'm weird. I guess, Sonny saying that Dean needed to be true to himself and make sure the person looking at him in the mirror is the person he wants to see is, for me, the lesson I think teenage Dean actually learns here. So, I don't think Dean gets back in that car for Sam, but for Dean--Dean said it in the episode, it never felt right and it just wasn't him. So, I don't morn the life he never had, nor do I think one life would be better than the other--that's for Dean to decide.

 

So much of the show has portrayed Dean as having no choice in his life, but here we see he had other options, if he had so desired. So, to me, the episode is showing Dean lived the life he wanted in the end, and I kinda celebrate that.

[Demented Daisy]

I can appreciate that.  Maybe brainwashing is too harsh a word, but when you've been told the same thing since you were a very small child ("Save Sammy."  "Protect Sammy."), I don't know what else to call it.

 

I think part of the problem, for me, is that we've never seen John give Dean any other option.  (If so, please remind me.  My memory is not what it used to be.)  So Dean was given an option in this episode, but he still chose the life John had mapped out for him.  

 

Part of it is my own skewed perspective (my parents had a plan for my life, but I rebelled in a somewhat safe manner -- they wanted me to follow a specific educational and career path, but I got married and had a kid instead).  So it's hard for me to imagine Dean taking an honest look at himself and his life and being able to genuinely see any other option as even being possible.  I think there's a difference between being happy with your life and living the life you wanted to.

 

I'm not saying that Dean didn't have a choice, but, subconsciously, maybe he didn't.  Back in The Benders, he tells the cop that he saved Sam's life when they were kids and he's felt responsible for him ever since.  I think that maybe, no matter what, he's always going to feel that way and it colors the choices he's made for his life.

 

I'm not making much sense, sorry.  I know what I'm trying to say but, as usual, it's not coming out the way I want it to.

[DittyDotDot]

You're making perfect sense. And I agree that the moment Sam was put into his arms and he carried him out of that fire was the defining moment for Dean and the "protect Sammy" mindset. That's why I don't see it as John brainwashing Dean as much as Dean took that on himself. Don't get me wrong, I think John did a lot of physiological damage to Dean, but I think Dean did a lot to himself too. I just think a great deal of his need to protect Sam is his own rather than being forced on him by John. But I'm open to the possibility that I could be very wrong too.

 

I think part of the problem, for me, is that we've never seen John give Dean any other option.  (If so, please remind me.  My memory is not what it used to be.)  So Dean was given an option in this episode, but he still chose the life John had mapped out for him.  

 

I guess I look at it that it wasn't up to John to give Dean the choice--John didn't give Sam the choice either--and just because he did choose the life John had mapped out for him doesn't negate the choice for me or make it a any less valid choice. Granted it wouldn't have been easy to for him to stand up to John, but Sonny said he'd stand behind him and help him if that's what he wanted. I realize Dean was only 16-years-old ::ahem 14::, but Dean was also much "older" than most kids his age because of the life he'd lived up till that point.
 

Which. BTW, is another reason that it would've been nice for Dean to remain 14--that's how old Sam was in After School Special and was the time Sam learned he had options and began his trajectory away from the family business.

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, I'm not saying it's not a valid choice, or that Dean made the wrong decision, or anything like that.  I'm just wondering (aloud, sort of) if Dean could have made any other choice.  I don't know, which is kind of why this episode is "meh" for me.

 

Which leads me to think-y thoughts about John and Sam, which I should probably take to another thread....

[DittyDotDot]

Ahh, yes that's a good question. But considering how John basically abandoned Dean for a couple months and Sonny was offering Dean a place to stay and all--I'm guessing there wouldn't be a lot John could've done to stop Dean if he really wanted to pursue that option. John would've run the risk of losing Sam too if he'd tried to make a stink.  It'd all come down to how determined Dean was. But, this kinda ties back into what Sonny said about being able to look at the man starring back at him in the mirror. Would Dean be able to live with himself if he had pushed it so far that Sam got caught in the crossfire? So, maybe it wasn't really much of a choice in the end. I don't know.

 

Its funny because I watched the episode kinda with different eyes this time. I was trying to really pay attention to why they lied to Sam about Dean being at Sonny's. It kinda dawned on me that even though Dean says it was John's idea to lie, I began to think it was actually Dean's. I wondered if teenage Dean didn't want Sam to know Dean had ever considered leaving the family business. Not that I think he didn't want Sam to know he had other options, but maybe Dean didn't want Sam to be saddled with the idea that he'd sacrificed a life that Sam eventually wanted to stay with them. Like he didn't want Sam to feel beholden to Dean or something. Am I making sense?

[Demented Daisy]

Yes, I totally get what you're saying.  And it would be in character for Dean to want to keep that info from Sam.  Especially if Sam was starting to question the life himself.  Sam was either 10 or 12 (which makes Sam "playing" with the plane look ridiculous, but we've had that discussion before) so he definitely knew about monsters and what John and Dean were doing.  He may have even killed a monster by that age, I can't remember.

 

Sorry, I digress.  Long story short, I think you're possibly right about Dean wanting to keep his moment of doubt from Sam.

[Goldmoon]

Really hated this one.  For one thing, I could not get over how the casting department couldn't come up with a 14 year old that was closer in looks to JA.  Jensen is almost a redhead and doesn't have Brooke Shields eyebrows.  WTF?  I thought we had heard that Dean lost his virginity at 14?  The idea of a 16 year old Dean being that naïve was ridiculous.  Also, when I heard that he was abandoned by John, I pictured Dean being the victim of "bad touching" or worse.  I wanted to be right, not to have Dean stumble onto a small rural paradise.  I think he didn't want Sam to know he got caught stealing food for Sammy, because it would have been like telling his little bro that it was his fault. I didn't buy the idea that at either 14 or 16, Dean had to talk himself into going with John and Sam.  And I know JA brings the man tears which I fully enjoy, but I am not sure about young Dean weeping and hugging this other guy.  Suppose the Single Tear of Man Pain was to tie teenage Dean to adult Dean. 

 

I would have just enjoyed the ghost story, and Billy, and Dean's bonding with Billy, if this wasn't something of a revisionist history for Dean.

[catrox14]

Oddly, the only thing about Young Dean here that bothered me was the brown eyes....but I thought Dylan Everett was sooo great as Dean, that I could ignore the lack of physical resemblance.  I thought he was Dean Winchester. I thought Ridge Canipe did a decent job as Wee!Dean but man I loathed Brock Kelly's Dean Winchester . He looked a bit more like Dean than either Ridge or Dylan but gods he was nothing like Dean other than wearing his coat. I just ugh. NO NONO. 

 

Dean was supposed to be 16 here which was stupid but I think they didn't maybe want at 14 year old necessarily to be kissing a girl yet? I don't know why they just didn't make him 15 which would have put him at a good age for being reallly into girls and be more attached to Sam but still wanting a life of his own and would probably still make a lot of mistakes hunting wise and would possibly get caught stealing. I dunno. I think there is a big difference between a 14 year old boy and a 16 year old and 15 is that really weird age that I thought would have worked better.. but then I've never been a teenage boy.

Edited March 18, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Dean was supposed to be 16 here which was stupid but I think they didn't maybe want at 14 year old necessarily to be kissing a girl yet? I don't know why they just didn't make him 15 which would have put him at a good age for being reallly into girls and be more attached to Sam but still wanting a life of his own and would probably still make a lot of mistakes hunting wise and would possibly get caught stealing. I dunno. I think there is a big difference between a 14 year old boy and a 16 year old and 15 is that really weird age that I thought would have worked better.. but then I've never been a teenage boy.

 

Actually, it was originally written for Dean to be 14 and they shot it that way. But, for some reason, they didn't think anyone would buy Dylan Everett as a 14-year-old, so they changed a couple lines in ADR. Personally, I have no issue thinking Dean is 14 here and the episode actually lines up better if he is 14, so I just ignore those two lines they changed after the fact.

[rue721]

Dean was supposed to be 16 here which was stupid but I think they didn't maybe want at 14 year old necessarily to be kissing a girl yet? I don't know why they just didn't make him 15 which would have put him at a good age for being reallly into girls and be more attached to Sam but still wanting a life of his own and would probably still make a lot of mistakes hunting wise and would possibly get caught stealing.

 

I think they should have focused the storyline on this being his first girlfriend, rather than on it being his first kiss. I think that would have made the age thing more reasonable, and I think it would have made more sense as something that was important to him, seeing as he was moving around all the time while growing up and this episode was sort of about him having a chance to settle down and have friends (but not family) and deciding not to take it (and to go back with his family instead).

 

I think it actually could have been a fun if he had been relatively "experienced" when it came to making out (etc), but that he was kind of a rookie when it came to actually having a girlfriend or even just having close friends in general.

 

What I think is kind of funny is that in this episode, imo Dylan Everett looks nothing like Jensen Ackles, and he does look like he's around sixteen years old -- but then in his S10 episode, I think he looks quite a bit like JA and he's pretty convincing as age ~14. So maybe they just got his styling wrong for Bad Boys. Maybe when they cast him, he looked like he could be Dean as a younger kid/teen (which is how he looks again now imo), but when they saw the dailies they figured they'd better age the character up a little bit.

 

Anyway, these flashbacks didn't seem like they could possibly be Dean's, but I liked them alright anyway, and I liked DE as an actor, so I just sort of ignored that they were supposed to be Dean's memories and enjoyed them as their own little story.

 

Oddly, the only thing about Young Dean here that bothered me was the brown eyes....but I thought Dylan Everett was sooo great as Dean, that I could ignore the lack of physical resemblance.  I thought he was Dean Winchester. I thought Ridge Canipe did a decent job as Wee!Dean but man I loathed Brock Kelly's Dean Winchester . He looked a bit more like Dean than either Ridge or Dylan but gods he was nothing like Dean other than wearing his coat. I just ugh. NO NONO. 

 

I haven't liked any of the other kids playing young!Dean until DE. Not that they've been terrible, imo, but they just haven't felt at all like Dean to me. I agree that Ridge Canipe was decent, in that I don't think he was miscast really -- but he wasn't an especially strong actor. And a lot of his scenes were also with Colin Ford, who was meanwhile *owning* his part as young!Sam, so he also suffered from the comparison imo. It's really too bad that the show has gone on so ridiculously long that Colin Ford is now kind of too old to do flashbacks for Sam, because I've always enjoyed seeing him. I even liked his lame "first kiss" episode with Amy, because I just enjoy him as an actor and think he works so well for Sam.

 

You know, though -- I wish they'd use CF again for a flashback storyline of Sam deciding to leave for college. I think After School Special was supposed to be the episode when Sam decides to apply to college, but it was such a "nothing" episode that I don't think that that really registered, and besides, that's not the conflict/interesting part of the storyline (imo). The conflict is with Sam's family not wanting him to go and him leaving anyway.

 

But regarding After School Special -- the resemblance between Brock Kelly and Jensen Ackles is uncanny imo, but teenage!Dean was a douchebag in that episode, which wasn't exactly enjoyable to watch. And Brock Kelly was *too* convincing as a douchebag to be likeable in it, I think! :P (Taking the rest of my babbling about AFS to its episode thread, lol).

 

ETA:

 

I always forget to mention it, but one of my favorite things about the flashbacks in this episode is that Dean is on the school wrestling team and that it's apparently a really fun experience for him. I can completely see him enjoying being on a team, what with all the team dinners, team "traditions," big brother/little brother (Varsity/JV) mentorship stuff -- just all of it. Plus obviously, playing the actual sport is pretty fun, too! :P Idk, I just thought it was a genuinely sweet touch, and one that fit the character pretty well. Being the boring person I am, I actually would have rather the storyline been about him making friends/getting along with the other boys on the wrestling team and their coach, as opposed to this sorta-romance/first kiss stuff. But I'm sure that's an UO!

Edited March 18, 2015 by rue721

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Wow.  John left Dean there for 2 months to teach him a lesson?  And then he dumped Sam off with Bobby?  Father of the year candidate.  [snort]  I wonder if that was when he was hooking up with Adam's mom.   I think they didn't tell Sam because John didn't want Sam to realize too early what a crappy parent he was.  I mean, John said he went off to look for Dean, but he knew all the time where Dean was and just left him there.  But Sam had to think that was heroic of him to search for his brother like that.  At least it worked at pretty well for Dean.  Until John randomly shows up blowing the horn for him like a bad date.  (Seriously, my dad wouldn't have let me out of the door if a boy tried that.)

I liked Sonny.  But Dean's been keeping in touch with him for how many years now?  And has apparently seen him since then also, since at the end, Sonny say, he "always hates to see him leave" which to me implies it's been more than once.  But Sam's never met or heard of him?  Huh.  Maybe the last time he saw him was when Sam was away at college.  

Well, I had no idea that YoungDean was supposed to be 14 originally but they changed it because they thought the boy actor looked too old?  Hahahahaha!  That's too funny, because when I was watching the ep, every flashback, I kept thinking, 'there is no way that's supposed to be Dean at 16.  He doesn't look old enough.'  Not to mention, the first kiss thing - at 16?  Dean?  Who we kidding here?  Pfft.  And like someone else mentioned above, if Dean was 16, that put Sam at 12 hanging out the window with the airplane.  Um...No.  At 10 I could still see it, but not at 12. 

Otherwise, I liked the twist with the ghost mother being tethered to her son.  Timmy was genuinely creepy when we first met him.  I thought he was going to be the ghost.  Liked Dean teaching him the proper way to shake hands.  I really liked seeing Mommy revert back to her young, beautiful self before she took off.  Did anyone else think she looked like young Mary Winchester?  Anyone?  Bueller?

Young Robin also did not look like older Robin at all - not even her coloring was right.  But I did like the parts with older Robin and Dean;especially in the diner and living room when he realizes that she did remember him.  

And Sam was so excited, thinking he was actually going to get something to tease Mr. Suave Dean about in regards to a girl -but then the ghost struck again.

Not sure what the point of this ep was.  It didn't move the big story forward.  And we just kind of had a break from the big story line with Dog Dean, even though it moved the story forward a little bit.  

It was nice to see them digging up a grave again.  And glad to see they finally learned to play with matches instead of trying to be all fancy with the lighters that won't always light.  

Sam did realize at the end what Dean gave up.  You could see it on his face.  And I think Sam realized it was for him also, not because 'it never felt right.'

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam did realize at the end what Dean gave up.  You could see it on his face.  And I think Sam realized it was for him also, not because 'it never felt right.'

To me, this just highlights the differences between Sam and Dean. This is something Sam wanted most of his life--a way out and a normal life--so Sam sees it as something Dean gave up and a real sacrifice. I'm not so sure Dean sees it the same way, though. I mean, I think a part of him wanted to stay with Sonny, but a part of him wanted to get back in that car, too. IMO, that's why Dean decides to get back in that car and what he meant by it never felt right. I'm sure some of it has to do with Sam in the sense that Dean would miss his brother, but I tend to think this is one of the few decisions Dean made that was truly about and for himself. 

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Wow.  John left Dean there for 2 months to teach him a lesson?  And then he dumped Sam off with Bobby?  Father of the year candidate.  [snort]  I wonder if that was when he was hooking up with Adam's mom.

I originally wondered that too, but doing the math it doesn't work. John met Adam's mom in 1990, which would make Dean 12 when John was hooking up with Adam's mom. But hey, maybe Dean was really only 12 in this episode...that could work too! ;)

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I liked Sonny.  But Dean's been keeping in touch with him for how many years now?  And has apparently seen him since then also, since at the end, Sonny say, he "always hates to see him leave" which to me implies it's been more than once.  But Sam's never met or heard of him?  Huh.  Maybe the last time he saw him was when Sam was away at college.  

This and the whole contrivance about the lie are what keeps this episode from being an absolute favorite. I mean, I enjoy aspects of the episode and prefer it to a good chunk of the season, but why everything needs to be so complicated, I'll never understand. Why not just say, "Remember that time I got caught stealing and Dad was MIA; Bobby couldn't spring me, so I got sent to a boys home while you and Bobby went looking for Dad?" It seems like they go out of their way to make it not make sense. 

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not sure what the point of this ep was.  It didn't move the big story forward.  And we just kind of had a break from the big story line with Dog Dean, even though it moved the story forward a little bit.  

Welcome to the Carver years where the point of an episode is simply because they got 23 to fill. ;) 

Seriously though, I think they were trying to give us insight into Dean, but forgot we've known Dean for years. Granted, I didn't know he spent time at a boys home, but I don't think I learned anything important I didn't already know.

Edited August 2, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I think we learned a lot we didn't know. 

I think Dean made the choice to put Sam first even though it broke his heart to leave a place where his life wasn't only about Sam or hunting.

Dean was on the wrestling team. That's HUGE. For me wrestling is kind of perfect for Dean.  It's both an individual and team sport. Dean was able to be part of a team which seemed to be something he really wanted as was shown in Hollywood Babylon when he said "I dunno man, I feel like I'm part of the team". So maybe here he got that taste of being VALUED by the team and he was valued by the crew set as a PA. 

He is accomplished as a wrestler, since he was champion and was valued and appreciated by others for his contribution to the team... and he could in turn support others without ALL the burden that he had with Sam. And he can prove his mettle mano y mano...literally.  I just loved that reveal.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

To me, this just highlights the differences between Sam and Dean. This is something Sam wanted most of his life--a way out and a normal life--so Sam sees it as something Dean gave up and a real sacrifice.

Now, see - I just got more out of your comment than I did from watching the episode!  :)

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not so sure Dean sees it the same way, though. I mean, I think a part of him wanted to stay with Sonny, but a part of him wanted to get back in that car, too. IMO, that's why Dean decides to get back in that car and what he meant by it never felt right. I'm sure some of it has to do with Sam in the sense that Dean would miss his brother, but I tend to think this is one of the few decisions Dean made that was truly about and for himself. 

I'm still not sure I agree with this though.  Just like the story they told Sam - and never corrected - about how Dean was lost on a hunt instead of at a Boy's Home, I got the feeling that when Dean said it never felt right, it was just another little lie so Sam wouldn't feel guilty.  And I think Dean would have stayed with Sonny, at least for the dance, if he hadn't seen Sam in the car.  So it didn't seem like Dean made the decision to leave that night for Dean himself, he made the decision to leave because he knew his dad wouldn't wait for him and would take off and he didn't want to leave Sam.  (That makes way more sense in my head).  I think it was more about Sam than about Dean doing it for himself.  

Which is sad, really.

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean was on the wrestling team.

That was cool.  Dean wasn't just on the wrestling team - he was a CHAMPION.  Sonny said county champ, but I looked at that plaque, and it looked to me like it said State Champion in his weight class, so that's what I'm sticking with.  :)  You go, Dean.  

I thought it was really interesting how Dean seemed to integrate so well into school after not having a stable home life since he was four and consistent education at all.  In fact, I was really surprised - especially since I would think the boys from the Boy's Home would be automatically viewed as Outsiders and Troublemakers and at that age, that stigma is hard to overcome.   I wish we could have seen more of Dean's struggles and triumphs with fitting in at a new high school.

[catrox14]

Yeah for me, Dean left because of Sam and no other reason. He felt he needed to make sure Sam was okay. That's Dean's choice but that choice wasn't really a choice given how he was always Sam's protector since he was 4.  That's just my opinion.

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/2/2016 at 3:06 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm still not sure I agree with this though.  Just like the story they told Sam - and never corrected - about how Dean was lost on a hunt instead of at a Boy's Home, I got the feeling that when Dean said it never felt right, it was just another little lie so Sam wouldn't feel guilty.  And I think Dean would have stayed with Sonny, at least for the dance, if he hadn't seen Sam in the car.  So it didn't seem like Dean made the decision to leave that night for Dean himself, he made the decision to leave because he knew his dad wouldn't wait for him and would take off and he didn't want to leave Sam.  (That makes way more sense in my head).  I think it was more about Sam than about Dean doing it for himself.  

I just see it kinda like Dean's time with Lisa and Ben. There was a part of him who wanted that life, but a greater part wanted to be out on the road hunting. To me, the turning point was when Dean looked out the window and saw his life staring him in the face. That smile said everything to me; as though he suddenly realized how much he'd been missing his life. So, IMO, as much as Dean wanted to go to the dance and be a real boy, he just wanted to get back in that car more.

But, I'm weird in that I don't believe every decision Dean has ever made was about Sam, so that probably colors my assessment here.

Edited August 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just see it kinda like Dean's time with Lisa and Ben. There was a part of him who wanted that life, but a greater part wanted to be out on the road hunting. To me, the turning point was when Dean looked out the window and saw his life staring him in the face. That smile said everything to me; as though he suddenly realized how much he'd been missing his life. So, IMO, as much as Dean wanted to go to the dance and be a real boy, he just wanted to get back in that car more.

But, I'm weird in that I don't believe every decision Dean has ever made was about Sam, so that probably colors my assessment here.

Because I really want your last sentence to be true also - I mean, it's too sad a life if EVERY decision Dean ever made was about Sam - I'm going to have to go watch that scene again and look for that smile.  :)

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Because I really want your last sentence to be true also - I mean, it's too sad a life if EVERY decision Dean ever made was about Sam - I'm going to have to go watch that scene again and look for that smile.  :)

Oh man, I hope I wasn't hallucinating it. ;)

I've been thinking about this today after I posted and got to thinking it could be like going on vacation for Dean? What I mean is, when I'm on vacation all I can think about is how nice it is to get away and see something new and kinda dread heading back home. But, once I get home I look around and am so glad to be home. It's like I needed to step away to appreciate what I had.

That's kinda how I view Dean in this episode. To me, there's nothing in this episode that suggests Dean went back to take care of Sam or because of Sam or anything to do with Sam. In fact, does he even mention Sam at all in this episode? For me the entire episode is an opportunity for Dean to get a chance to take a "vacation" and gain some perspective on his life.

Edited August 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Dobian]

This one gets the top spot from me for this season so far, and one of the better episodes of the whole series.  Just a simple ghost story with no fillers or gimmicks.  Very Stephen King with the flashbacks to when Dean was there, and the actor playing young Dean was terrific.  The scene where he's getting ready to go to the dance with Robin to learn that his dad is outside to pick him up was heartbreaking.  But then seeing him smile at Sam in the back of their car was equally heartwarming.  The sadness I felt as he left his new home and girlfriend to go back to his family and life on the road was many layered.  Well done.

[DittyDotDot]

Okay, I just love Dylan Everett as young Dean. It's the little mannerisms and that youthful vibrancy that really sell this kid as Dean. And, how cute was it that Dean wanted to be a rockstar, like most other 14-year-old boys? That's the part I think I love most about this episode, it reminded me that Dean was in essence like every other boy, at one time, despite being drug allover the country and hunting monsters on the side. I also really loved the way he talked about fixing cars. Very cute!

On 8/2/2016 at 3:06 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Just like the story they told Sam - and never corrected - about how Dean was lost on a hunt instead of at a Boy's Home, I got the feeling that when Dean said it never felt right, it was just another little lie so Sam wouldn't feel guilty.  And I think Dean would have stayed with Sonny, at least for the dance, if he hadn't seen Sam in the car.  So it didn't seem like Dean made the decision to leave that night for Dean himself, he made the decision to leave because he knew his dad wouldn't wait for him and would take off and he didn't want to leave Sam.  (That makes way more sense in my head).  I think it was more about Sam than about Dean doing it for himself.  

Which is sad, really.

Now that I've refreshed my memory, I now remember what it was that also made me think Dean got back in that car for himself. He says to Timmy, "Sometimes you gotta do what's right for you, even if it hurts people you love." I think that's why Dean got back in the car; it was what was right for him even if it hurt Sonny and Robin. I also forgot about Sonny telling Dean that when he looked in the mirror he should make sure the person looking back at him is his own man. I don't doubt part of Dean wanted to stay, I just think a greater part of him wanted to go.

[Myrelle]

"Sometimes you gotta do what's right for you, even if it hurts people you love."

It could be regret at not having done what was right for himself way back then, too. And the parallel within the story was that kid chose to say good-bye forever to his mother because it was right for him.

But yeah, much easier to say good-bye to a mom who one knows is a ghost and already dead, then to your very-much-alive father and the little brother whom you'd watched over for practically your entire life.

I like this type of a layered ending very much. And with Mary coming back, who knows, maybe it will inspire the writers again, as far as that kind of writing is concerned. 

I'm getting some good ideas for re-watches on this site today. :-)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Okay, I just love Dylan Everett as young Dean. It's the little mannerisms and that youthful vibrancy that really sell this kid as Dean. And, how cute was it that Dean wanted to be a rockstar, like most other 14-year-old boys? That's the part I think I love most about this episode, it reminded me that Dean was in essence like every other boy, at one time, despite being drug allover the country and hunting monsters on the side. I also really loved the way he talked about fixing cars. Very cute!

Now that I've refreshed my memory, I now remember what it was that also made me think Dean got back in that car for himself. He says to Timmy, "Sometimes you gotta do what's right for you, even if it hurts people you love." I think that's why Dean got back in the car; it was what was right for him even if it hurt Sonny and Robin. I also forgot about Sonny telling Dean that when he looked in the mirror he should make sure the person looking back at him is his own man. I don't doubt part of Dean wanted to stay, I just think a greater part of him wanted to go.

I took it as Dean saying to Timmy what Timmy should do which was in opposition to what Dean did or at least it was more like a mirror to Dean's choice more than a direct parallel.

I think Dean tries to impart the wisdom he has NOW in hindsight that he didn't at certain times of his own life. I think Teen!Dean may have even forgotten a little bit about Sam which is not bad or wrong or make him a crappy brother because he was a teenager and living this life he never had before. No death, no killing monsters, being sort of normal and participating in a more normal life than he had ever had. Once he saw Sam, he was reminded that his job even then was to take care of Sam.  IMO, he made the choice for Sam and to fulfill that job he's never been able to wrench himself from, which lead him to letting an angel possess Sam to save Sam. 

[Commando Cody]

This is the episode where Dean mentions to Sam about the time their dad was off hunting a Rugaru.  They didn't know what a  Rugaru was until season four. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

They didn't know what a  Rugaru was until season four. 

So much of this episode made little sense.

That even a 14 year old Dean wouldn't have had a little experience with kissing girls was already pushing it, in my opinion, but that Dean was supposedly 16 was laughable. We already knew that Dean dropped Sam off at Plucky's sometimes to chase girls, so I'm supposed to believe that it was a 12 or 13 year old Sam who was getting dropped off at Plucky's? That's a big nope for me.

That Sam - who in this case would've been 11 almost 12 at the youngest if Dean was 16 - was in the car playing with a toy plane and was apparently entirely nonchalant that Dean was coming home, especially considering the horrible lie John told him!... and looked about 7.

That Sam - who snooped and figured out all sorts of things, even finding John's journal at 8 - would've believed the story John came up with about where Dean was (lost on a hunt)  and not tried to do something to find Dean on his own in some way or figured out that it was a boy's home and/or that Dean had gotten caught stealing.

And I'm sort of annoyed that what seemed to be the point here was yet another thing that Dean gave up for Sam. (Or at least that they didn't make it more clear if it wasn't.) It's not like we haven't been being shown this since season 1 and had a huge plot point about it with Benny last season.  I get it, Show. You can stop beating me over the head with it now, geesh. Instead of enjoying the episode, I instead somewhat resented it.

[Katy M]

Random question that just popped into my head for no apparent reason.  Other than I mentioned the closed doors of Heaven on another thread yesterday.  Anyway, the doors of Heaven get closed at the end of Sacrifice.  We know they don't get opened up again until at least after Stairway to Heaven.  We know all Heaven bound souls are trapped in the veil.  So, how was Timmy's mother able to disappear into the white light or whatever?  Where did she go?

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, how was Timmy's mother able to disappear into the white light or whatever?  Where did she go?

I'm guessing she just went into the Veil

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm guessing she just went into the Veil

I thought the veil was what you were in when you were being a ghost.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

Random question that just popped into my head for no apparent reason.  Other than I mentioned the closed doors of Heaven on another thread yesterday.  Anyway, the doors of Heaven get closed at the end of Sacrifice.  We know they don't get opened up again until at least after Stairway to Heaven.  We know all Heaven bound souls are trapped in the veil.  So, how was Timmy's mother able to disappear into the white light or whatever?  Where did she go?

Well, the obvious answer is they hadn't come up with the veil being closed at the time they wrote this episode. But, if you want an actual head canon that could fit into cannon: it could be that the mom didn't go anywhere, but just gave up her hold on Timmy? She's still hanging out in the veil, but gave up her vengeful-ness and that's what the shedding of the burned skin and white light was all about. Not perfect, but if you squint very hard... .

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I thought the veil was what you were in when you were being a ghost.

I think it is. But I think souls who refuse to go with their reaper at their time of death become caught between the veil and the earthly plane and eventually go mad and  become a vengeful spirit, like Dean would have in "In my Time of Dying" . I think in the case of Timmy's mom, she was refusing to leave Timmy and once she let go, she went fully into  the veil to await her reaper.

[bettername2come]

One thing I will give this credit for in this episode, even if it is accidental - Dean being more sympathetic than Sam to the inmates in Folsom Prison Blues makes sense given his history with Sonny. 

John shipping Sam off to Bobby's for a couple months is pretty shocking - wonder if this is when Bobby threatened to pump him full of buckshot. Leaving Dean in jail, leaving Sam, fucking separating the boys, with Sam thinking Dean was lost on a hunt. I think this is when Bobby talked shit, hit a nerve with John, John pulled some of that "you're not their father" stuff and Bobby got pissed off and made threats. The only flaw in this theory is Dean was supposed to have been there when it happened, but John has Sammy with him when they pick up Dean.  Maybe the blow up happened shortly after, because this story sounds like a tipping point.

Wouldn't have blamed Robin for not recognizing Dean - he was short and had brown eyes back then. I like this version of young Dean. He may have eclipsed the one from Supernatural Christmas as my favorite. That laugh through tears when he sees his very immature little brother playing with the plane is just such a sweet moment. They need to let him have some face to face interaction with a Young Sam. Also, we need a good Young Sam.  Agree with the people upthread - Dean being 14 makes so much more sense, especially for Sam being 9 or 10 instead 11/12.

Case of the week is fine, nothing special. Dean's always good with kids, and him teaching the handshake was sweet. Great makeup on Ghost Mom. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Wouldn't have blamed Robin for not recognizing Dean - he was short and had brown eyes back then

Legit. LOLOLOL. That's so funny and true.

[Hanahope]

So a cute episode, but the retcon was strong.  I did get a bit of Dean considering that he could have a regular life, but realizing that it really wouldn't work out.  

I thought the lesson John wanted Dean to learn was 'not get caught.'  But then maybe John also thought Dean needed to have an experience without his family in order to learn how important family was. 

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I thought the lesson John wanted Dean to learn was 'not get caught.'  But then maybe John also thought Dean needed to have an experience without his family in order to learn how important family was.

I think the lesson was either "don't get caught" or "don't lose the money I gave you."  It definitely wasn't "don't steal" because they live almost exclusively on stolen money.  Even the money they win at poker and pool is staked with stolen money.  I don't think Dean needed a lesson in how important family is.

[Pondlass1]

I think it's nigh impossible to find two actors capable and believable enough to portray young versions of Dean and Sam.  If they could - there could be some awesome flashbacks.  A lot needs to be filled in about their young lives.

Yes, ages all wrong.  Especially Sammy at age 12 playing with a toy airplane and I'm pretty sure 16 yr old Dean knew all about kissing girls.  I haven't watched this episode in a while, but I remember I was annoyed that in the script it intimates John didn't tell Sam where Dean was.  Sam must have been beside himself with worry.  It was the longest the brothers had been separated (at that time).  That was cruel of John.

The writers put a lot of complications into a story that could have been fairly simple.

I think Dylan did a fantastic job and I read he studied Jensen's moves ... but yeah... looked nothing like Dean.

[bethy]

50 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think Dean needed a lesson in how important family is.

I don't think Dean needed that lesson either. I think John was basically punishing Dean by taking Sam away from him. I think he thought there probably couldn't be a harsher punishment for Dean - "Look here's what happen if you get caught - you lose Sam, who is everything I've taught you (or at least allowed you to believe) gives you purpose and worth." And ironically, what John came closest to actually teaching Dean was that he, Dean, has worth outside his care-taking role for Sam, that he could have a life outside of his family. John was just lucky that Dean actually simply loves his brother and wanted to be with him. In that moment I didn't feel like Dean's choice to go with his father had anything to do with duty or some obligation to care for Sam or that he was nothing without Sam or John. It was just that he was reminded of his love for his goofy little brother. 

[catrox14]

My head canon is that Dean was lying about being 16. Sonny had no school records to verify Dean's age, and I think he was disinclined to look to hard at it. 

spoilers for s11

Spoiler

It also fits with the Zanna episode wherein Dean couldn't always be there for Sam like for the 2 months when John had dumped him in the boys home.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Edited August 24, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, bethy said:

I don't think Dean needed that lesson either. I think John was basically punishing Dean by taking Sam away from him. I think he thought there probably couldn't be a harsher punishment for Dean - "Look here's what happen if you get caught - you lose Sam, who is everything I've taught you (or at least allowed you to believe) gives you purpose and worth." And ironically, what John came closest to actually teaching Dean was that he, Dean, has worth outside his care-taking role for Sam, that he could have a life outside of his family. John was just lucky that Dean actually simply loves his brother and wanted to be with him. In that moment I didn't feel like Dean's choice to go with his father had anything to do with duty or some obligation to care for Sam or that he was nothing without Sam or John. It was just that he was reminded of his love for his goofy little brother. 

I think it was a lot of things. His love for his goofy little brother, and the complicated parentification issues. Of course, teen!Dan wouldn't have known that he had been parentified by John but I think it factors into most things related to Sam. 

[Iju]

omg! timmy is the boy who plays the doctor in odd squad! he's even smaller here, and cuter. he still has on glasses though, haha. maybe it's less of a character thing and more like he needs them. either way it's great to know that he's been in other stuff.

okay, onto other stuffs:

dean not having experience with girls at 16......just as i did with sam not looking for dean, NOPE. there are just some things i'm not going to accept because it's just too ridiculous.

john leaving dean in the boys correction home....another NOPE. i do not give a single crap how badly the show wants to make john. he wasn't the perfect father, he could have made better choices, but one thing is a fact - he loved his sons to the bone. he wasn't a heartless bastard. at best he was angry at dean. dean is in his teens. teens are troubling. ANYTHING other than "john left him there to make him learn his lesson/revenge". bye on that thanks~

and i didn't really view this as a life dean "could" have had, but thinking on one of the happier childhood memories he had without sam. a sort of bittersweet remembering. nice he met his GF again, and there were no hard feelings.

also i'm sour that the amount of childhood flashbacks of sam and dean the show has seen is enough to count on our hands. instead of making seemingly nonsense filler episodes why don't they just spam that?

PS. kinda off topic but this reminded me of it. out of all the times the boys stopped by motels (or other places to sleep), there wasn't one instance when all the other paired rooms were full and they were forced to sleep in one bed? i can already think of the funny scenarios that would ensue, dean threatening he would kick sam on the floor if he took up took much blanket like that "one time when we were kids". idk, i just thought the situation was obvious and would come up eventually, but never has. huh.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 8/17/2018 at 11:08 PM, Iju said:

john leaving dean in the boys correction home....another NOPE. i do not give a single crap how badly the show wants to make john. he wasn't the perfect father, he could have made better choices, but one thing is a fact - he loved his sons to the bone. he wasn't a heartless bastard. at best he was angry at dean. dean is in his teens. teens are troubling. ANYTHING other than "john left him there to make him learn his lesson/revenge". bye on that thanks~

You can head-canon John as a loving father if you want, but the facts of actual canon support John being exactly heartless enough to leave Dean in the home. He was clearly a proponent of tough love. Their psuedo-military upbringing speaks to that. He had no issues with leaving a much younger Dean alone with Sam for days, then punishing him when this child broke the rules and actually left the motel room for an hour. He was harsh enough that Dean knew he was possessed because he was too nice to him, and that too nice was defined by him not getting mad that Dean wasted a magic bullet to save Sam. This was never contested by anyone in canon. There was a clear implication of punishment when Dean 'allowed' Sam to run away (Flagstaff). Not to mention that Sam, a kid himself, was inclined to run away - implying a life of funyuns and living alone in a dump was preferable to life with Dad. John left Dean behind without a word (Dad's on a hunting trip), later revealed to be another case of doing the hard thing for their own good (as ridiculous as that premise was). So yeah, I have no trouble at all believing that John would leave Dean to pay the price for his 'crime'.

[Katy M]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:08 PM, Iju said:

john leaving dean in the boys correction home....another NOPE. i do not give a single crap how badly the show wants to make john. he wasn't the perfect father, he could have made better choices, but one thing is a fact - he loved his sons to the bone.

I don't doubt that he loved his sons.  But, I think he made stupid decisions, was way too hard on them, and treated them like soldiers instead of kids.

[Iju]

On 19/08/2018 at 11:45 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

You can head-canon John as a loving father if you want, but the facts of actual canon support John being exactly heartless enough to leave Dean in the home. He was clearly a proponent of tough love. Their psuedo-military upbringing speaks to that. He had no issues with leaving a much younger Dean alone with Sam for days, then punishing him when this child broke the rules and actually left the motel room for an hour. He was harsh enough that Dean knew he was possessed because he was too nice to him, and that too nice was defined by him not getting mad that Dean wasted a magic bullet to save Sam. This was never contested by anyone in canon. There was a clear implication of punishment when Dean 'allowed' Sam to run away (Flagstaff). Not to mention that Sam, a kid himself, was inclined to run away - implying a life of funyuns and living alone in a dump was preferable to life with Dad. John left Dean behind without a word (Dad's on a hunting trip), later revealed to be another case of doing the hard thing for their own good (as ridiculous as that premise was). So yeah, I have no trouble at all believing that John would leave Dean to pay the price for his 'crime'.

i think i just stated that in my post though. his parenting wasn't perfect, but without a doubt he loved his sons. that was just a more extensive answer on what he did. it's not my headcanon, it's actual canon lol

[The Companion]

It's funny because I have face blindness so the failure to look alike didn't really bother me. The age seemed off, so the backstory does help make that better for me. Headcannon accepted.

I think this was a great episode. Fairly nuanced and open to interpretation precisely because Dean is a bit of an unreliable narrator here. He definitely doesn't tell Sam everything.

I am surprised the sweet and fairly compelling love story came from this team (though called away the night of the dance does feel like them 🙄). I wish we had gotten some memories of tbe team or friends. This show has a real problem with defining a normal life by having a romantic partner. We are told but dont see that there is more here.

The story itself was also compelling and the actress did an incredible job without words when deghosted to show love and worry and all of these complex emotions without a word. 

I am not sure about the placement of this episode, but I liked it.

[Nick24]

IMO This episode is probably Adam Glass' strongest script (maybe tie with 10.12). That was a very important look into young!Dean's psyche. He wasn't like John at all, he wasn't obsessed with hunting, more than that, Dean said he didn't really like it! Dean had his own thoughts and dreams. He wanted to become a rock star**! It means that back then Dean was able to think about himself. And then we could watch how that ability was fading away as he was growing older. 

**Or a mechanic. Transcript:

Quote

YOUNG!DEAN: Cars are freaking cool as hell. Fixing them is like … a puzzle, and the best part is when you're done, they leave, and you're not responsible for them anymore.

Another very hard moment. At that young age Dean was already carrying on his shoulders too much and he was mature enough to realize and accept that.

On 8/2/2016 at 10:10 PM, catrox14 said:

Dean was on the wrestling team. That's HUGE. For me wrestling is kind of perfect for Dean.  It's both an individual and team sport. Dean was able to be part of a team which seemed to be something he really wanted as was shown in Hollywood Babylon when he said "I dunno man, I feel like I'm part of the team". So maybe here he got that taste of being VALUED by the team and he was valued by the crew set as a PA. 

I love your thoughts here! In both cases Dean got a chance to experience something he had never been able to experience before - being appreciated and respected for being who he was, who he wanted to be, NOT what he could do for them, NOT for being who they wanted him to. 

On 3/18/2015 at 8:18 PM, catrox14 said:

I thought Dylan Everett was sooo great as Dean, that I could ignore the lack of physical resemblance.  I thought he was Dean Winchester.

100% agreed! I was so impressed with Dylan Everett. He did an amazing job with playing young!Dean. The way of expressing emotions was very Dean.

On 9/19/2016 at 6:31 PM, Myrelle said:

"Sometimes you gotta do what's right for you, even if it hurts people you love."

I wish Dean used his own advice at least for once :(

The flashbacks were perfectly done! And once again I want to praise Jensen Ackles for his wonderful acting! We can clearly see, how those memories are reviving inside Dean and how many conflicted emotions he is feeling right now. The last shot on Dean's face before the blackout (after the last flashback) gutted and seriously effected me. It felt like Dean was thinking ''What would my life have looked like, if I had stayed here?''. At this point I felt something in my eyes. Jensen is the only one who can do that. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Nick24