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Zuleikha

S03.E11: Going Home

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It's my birthday tomorrow, and I feel like this episode was a little present to me. It was so good, I actually legitimately cried at the end with Rumple/Pan and Regina/Henry/Emma. Neverland wasn't perfect, but it ended up being pretty darn good. I thought all the major character beats were earned and satisfying. 

 

Despite the obviously pregnant Mary Margaret, I loved the scene of Mary Margaret giving Henry the book. I've never understood how or why that would have happened, but I thought it was perfect. Other highlights for me were making it absolutely canon that Emma and Henry were both wrong in S1 when they thought Regina didn't love him, Regina and Rumple both making meaningful sacrifices, Emma/Henry at the end, and everything Robbie McKay (except his eyebrows when he was playing Henry... they work for Pan but not for Henry).

 

Despite my rooting for Hook/Emma in Neverland, this episode almost switched me to Tink/Hook. Their chemistry was a little too good for the storyline! I guess now that she's a fairy again, though, it's off the table. 

 

The lows for me were the coconut/shadow destruction and the Rumple/Pan simultaneous killing because I didn't understand either. I missed the explanation for how the coconut candle traps the shadow or why the fire would have killed it, but also the shadow wasn't evil. We saw that. It was just the primordial spirit of Neverland, which also wasn't evil. I don't know why they couldn't kill Peter Pan and then let the shadow return to guard Neverland and keep Neverland as a place for unhappy children to escape to in their dreams. Rumple said over and over that he would have to die for Pan to die but it was never explained why. And I still don't understand why! But it was a great scene.

 

Also... a minor low, but still a low for me... why on earth did the others let Rumple keep the black fairy wand after the swap? I know he's "dead" and all that now, but they didn't know he was going to die and we all know he's not staying dead. Don't leave Rumple with powerful magic like that!

 

 

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Happy birthday Z!

This was one of my favorite episodes of the season and definitely top 10 of the show. It was a great way to end the arc. It was moving.

I liked all the characters in this one. I felt that Regina earned her chance at redemption in this episode. In the past, I felt everyone was expected to treat her well because she wasn't killing/hurting others. Here she made a huge sacrifice for others and finally put Emma and Henry above herself.

I felt bad for the Charmings. Emma is so upset and they all did an excellent job at the town line.

I liked how Rumple finally had a moment of bravery. There is another discussion in another thread about Rumple's act in this episode. I firmly believe that at his base Rumple is a coward. He has always been ruled by his cowardice, but I think he was able to overcome it in this one instance. I think everyone has it in them to have one shining moment and hopefully that moment is the start of better choices. Rumple was backed into a corner he knew that his father would destroy everything and knew the prophecy that the boy would lead to his end. I think knowing that he was doomed no matter what, he was able to confront Pan. There was probably some anger at his father driving him as well.

I did want to see rumple cut off his hand to escape the cuff. I was shocked when it looked like Rumple might do it.

I love Pan. I think Robbie did a great job. I just wish he wasn't Rumple's father. It made him go from psycho interesting creepy to dirty old man creepy. I don't think it was necessary. They could have made Pan a close friend or brother to Rumple and not dragged out the reveal. I felt robbed that we didn't see Hook or Neal's reaction to find out Pan was Rumple's father. Both of the men had suffered for centuries under his rule.

I love Tink too. I will always wish we got Neverbacks of Hook, Pan and Tink. These are the classic Peter Pan characters and we hardly saw them interact. (Heck we didn't see any interaction between pan and Tink) and to me it is a shame given how great the chemistry between all three characters. Back to Tink. I love that she doesn't take much guff from anyone. She calls out Regina and hook. I ship CS but Pirate Fairy was my crack ship.

Edited by kitticup

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I did not like this episode upon first watch (and still don't) because while I enjoyed parts of it, it was poorly paced, full of retcons and the blocking on some scenes was just so weird. What the hell was up with Snow asking Regina if she's okay while Belle is sobbing on her knees on the road? No one gave a second look at Belle. The random flashbacks also showed the Continuity Fairy failing big time - especially with regards to Hook & Tink. And where did this Black Fairy come from? And how come her wand can do all kinds of awesome things? Why wasn't this an option when Cora was in town?  I did love the ending where Emma's eyes were just so happy as she drove along the road. Finally the girl got her happy ending. Too bad they're back to screw it up again just a year later. I gave serious consideration to stop watching the show at this point as it would've worked very well as a series finale. My curiosity with where they were going with Captain Swan in NYC and the potential for what occurred in the intervening year in terms of everyone's return to the Enchanted Forest kept me going. I should have quit while I was ahead. At least my liver would have thanked me for it.

 

 

Rumple said over and over that he would have to die for Pan to die but it was never explained why. And I still don't understand why!

 

I believe that at that point Pan was immortal. The only way it worked to kill him was by stabbing himself through Pan so it was like Pan stabbing Rumpel to become the Dark One. Since Pan was now the Dark One, the dagger in him killed him too. Since Rumpel was wearing the cuff, his powers were still locked to him and didn't transfer upon his death. The Dark One powers then just went wherever along with their bodies. They don't really spell that out, but that's how it worked in my head. That way when Rumpel inevitably rises from the dead (he's a lot like Shady Blue in this regard), he'd still have the Dark One's powers. It doesn't totally track, but sometimes it's best never to think too hard about this show and its very fluid rules of magic. The writers were confused when people asked about this new reverse curse and applied it to Cinderella's baby since it had been born in this world, but apparently it went back too because it was conceived there. They have zero care for their use of magic.

 

Also, given all the hope speeches we get on this show, I went back and read the TWOP thread for this episode and laughed at the commentary on the Blue Fairy and her hope chat with the Charmings. She's just full of wisdom and helpfulness. "Snow, I have something you don't have - Hope... Good luck!" 

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Going home also gives me mixed feelings in the sense that I enjoyed it, then not so much upon re-watch.  Robbie Kay as Peter Pan was just absolutely awesome.  Robbie Kay as Henry was so very bad along with those scenes where he hugs Emma and Regina because he is as tall as they are, that was just plain weird.

 

I still wish they hadn't made Pan Rumple's dad.  I wish they'd stop doing that with every other character they bring in.  They could have made Rumple a Lost Boy, his back story was good for that.  Pan could have still be looking for the heart of the dumbest believer.  Bring in the boys and then send them back because they're not what he's looking for all the while keeping track of  those family trees that would spring from them. 

 

About Regina, she might have loved Henry in Season 1, but she also treated him like a possession.  I get that seeing your son's biological mother come back in the picture can be jarring but at the same time she put her happy ending (the curse and keeping the whole thing intact) ahead of her son's well being.  Regina has always been a selfish character.  She's trying to change (the character and her snowflake status annoys me to no end).

 

I hated that Regina's price to pay became everyone else's price as well.  Everyone was heading back to the Enchanted Forest.  The Charmings were going to be separated from both Emma and Henry.  Neal, no matter how much I disliked him, was heading back to the Enchanted Forest, a place that held nothing but bad memories for him.  He was going to be away from the son he had just found.  Hook looked completely broken at the idea of being away from Emma even though he had made the decision to not pursue her.  These people, they all paid Regina's price and there was nothing fair about that.

 

Emma realizing she was going to lose her parents was heartbreaking.  I'm not gonna lie, I cried and I still got choked up when I re-watched it.  

 

And my absolute favorite scene during Going Home was when Hook went up to Emma to speak to her.  That scene said a lot without saying much and it was what made me look forward to the second half of the season.  This show has a way sometimes to write something that makes me say, that's how it should be done.  That scene is still one of my favorite ones on the show.

 

Also, Happy Birthday Zuleikha!  Hope you have a brilliant one :)

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Happy birthday, Zuleikha!

 

About Regina, she might have loved Henry in Season 1, but she also treated him like a possession.  I get that seeing your son's biological mother come back in the picture can be jarring but at the same time she put her happy ending (the curse and keeping the whole thing intact) ahead of her son's well being.  Regina has always been a selfish character.  She's trying to change (the character and her snowflake status annoys me to no end).

 

This. I've long thought that Regina thought that she loved Henry a lot more than she actually did. Because let's be honest, here, it was the way she treated Henry that led him to think she was the Evil Queen in the first place. And it was the fact that she was trying to make him think he was crazy rather than tell him the truth about the Curse and the fairy tale characters that led him to bring Emma to Storybrooke. And let's not forget that like, a week and a hald ago, TV-time, she was trying to kill Henry's family so she could have him all to herself. I thought her line at the beginning of season 2 -- that she didn't know how to love very well -- was much more in line with what actually transpired onscreen during season 1, and that was something I could get behind -- Regina learning how to love better. I do consider Regina's giving Emma and Henry happy memories of a life lived together probably the nicest thing she's ever done, and I liked that gesture so much more than Henry's "I wish I had never gone to get Emma" bit.

 

Emma realizing she was going to lose her parents was heartbreaking.  I'm not gonna lie, I cried and I still got choked up when I re-watched it.

 

That whole thing, with Emma's look of panic at her parents and Hook when Regina tells her she's going to forget them makes me misty just thinking about it. Because Emma finally has her family and now she not only has to give them up but she won't even remember that she had them.

 

And my absolute favorite scene during Going Home was when Hook went up to Emma to speak to her.

 

This. So much. And I still remember how much my Captain Swan loving self freaked the hell out when Hook showed up at her door at the end, because finally, Emma had her own "I will always find you."

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Happy birthday, Zuleikha!

 I do consider Regina's giving Emma and Henry happy memories of a life lived together probably the nicest thing she's ever done, and I liked that gesture so much more than Henry's "I wish I had never gone to get Emma" bit.

 

 

This is the nicest thing Regina's done--at least since saving 10-year-old Snow.  The thing is, I don't see it as nearly the sacrifice or amazing, unnecessary gift that some seem to.  I'm about to be the curmudgeon in the group.  Sorry?

 

Shortly before this, we learned that Regina has absolutely no remorse at all for anything she did, because she got something she wanted out of it  (Henry).  She doesn't regret torturing anyone, she doesn't regret killing or raping anyone, or cursing anyone, and she doesn't even regret abusing Henry.

 

At this point in time, Henry's not a even person to her--you'd regret abusing a person, if you actually cared about him and thought of him as a person instead of an ego-boosting accessory.  And it's canon that she doesn't regret it--that tree she was tied to?  It wasn't the "Tree of Stuff I've Crammed Down and Pretend Isn't There", it was "The Tree of Regret". 

 

Why would she give Henry and Emma good memories?  Well, Henry's a possession.  Emma will take better care of Regina's possession if Regina gives her a good motive---and good memories would definitely improve the chances that Emma would make a special effort to take care of Regina's possession, Henry.  Plus, giving them pleasant memories cost her absolutely nothing; the way the episode framed it, Regina was not going to be able to give them memories of any of the Enchanted Forest people they lost--which would include Regina giving Henry memories of herself.

 

There was nothing Regina could do to stop the new curse, except tearing up that paper and undoing the original curse.  And, again, I don't see it as particularly heroic that Regina tore it up.  What other choices did she have?  Pan might've been dead, but he'd already started the curse, and he'd made a special point of telling everyone how unlovely their new life would be.  Regina wasn't able to save herself without tearing up that paper--is it good that everyone else was saved at the same time?  Yes.  But it's not a big, redemptive, heroic gesture if your goal is to save yourself.

Edited by Mari
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This episode seemed so bittersweet. It honestly felt like it could have been the series finale (ending as a downer) I also liked at the time how it was acting sort of parallel with the Wonderland series (it's midseason finale was titled "Home" if I remember correctly).

It had me tear up a little. I liked how Regina finally seemed to be doing something good for the sake of others. Robbie Kay's run as Peter Pan was fantastic. He made the most of what material he was given. He is forever cemented as THE Peter Pan for me. All other Peters pale in comparison.

I liked the Hook/Tinkerbell dynamic, although I prefer them as a brotp. It also makes me sad that we'll never get any Peter/Tink/Hook Neverland flashbacks. Missed opportunity.

Loved the final CS scene. Emma's "Good" cemented the CS for me. Loved it.

"Going Home" had me genuinely psyched for 3b.

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At this point in time, Henry's not a even person to her--you'd regret abusing a person, if you actually cared about him and thought of him as a person instead of an ego-boosting accessory.  And it's canon that she doesn't regret it--that tree she was tied to?  It wasn't the "Tree of Stuff I've Crammed Down and Pretend Isn't There", it was "The Tree of Regret".

Why would she give Henry and Emma good memories?  Well, Henry's a possession.

I'm not sure how to reconcile The Tree of Regret with all of the other canon Regina moments, but what I've come to is that Regina processes her guilt quickly and then moves on from it. I don't buy that Regina didn't regret falling for Snow's trick and killing Cora, for an example of something that she could go back in time and change without having to lose Henry. But I can buy that she processed it, externalized it into anger at Snow, dealt with it that way, and moved on from the actual emotion of regret quickly. Emma and Snow, by contrast, dwell with it. So I think I can buy that Regina didn't feel any regret in that moment with the tree because she doesn't let emotions like regret or sadness take root in her; she turns them into anger or moves past them. But I don't buy that Regina has never felt regret because I think we've seen it on screen.

 

I don't think the way Lana played the Regina/Henry/Emma scene was indicative of someone ensuring safekeeping of a possession. The emotions were too raw and real. She could have written herself into Emma/Henry's memories so that at least the memory of her would be present in Henry's life (something like Emma gave Henry up for adoption, Regina raised him until he was 10 but then had a fatal illness and heroically tracked down Emma to reunite biological mother and son, Emma has been happily caretaking for Henry ever since). But she wanted them to be as genuinely happy as possible and to have the happiest memories she could give them, even at the cost of completely erasing herself from Henry's life. Regina hasn't always achieved loving Henry unselfishly because she hasn't always known how to do that; she's had zero models for how to do that; and she has a broken moral compass (remember, she also was willing to erase her OWN memories so that she could love Henry better). But I think she has always tried, and with Emma's arrival, Regina's finally learned how.

 

What the hell was up with Snow asking Regina if she's okay while Belle is sobbing on her knees on the road? No one gave a second look at Belle.

I cannot lie. I loved that. I know in story it was weird, but I like to imagine that it's a sign all of the other characters have as little patience with Rumpbelle as I do, and also think Belle's a dingbat. 

Edited by Zuleikha
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And my absolute favorite scene during Going Home was when Hook went up to Emma to speak to her.  That scene said a lot without saying much and it was what made me look forward to the second half of the season.  This show has a way sometimes to write something that makes me say, that's how it should be done.  That scene is still one of my favorite ones on the show.

This is still my favourite CS moment. The way Emma is looking at Hook and her "good" were the first time her true feelings for him were shown.

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Shortly before this, we learned that Regina has absolutely no remorse at all for anything she did, because she got something she wanted out of it  (Henry).  She doesn't regret torturing anyone, she doesn't regret killing or raping anyone, or cursing anyone, and she doesn't even regret abusing Henry.

At this point in time, Henry's not a even person to her--you'd regret abusing a person, if you actually cared about him and thought of him as a person instead of an ego-boosting accessory.  And it's canon that she doesn't regret it--that tree she was tied to?  It wasn't the "Tree of Stuff I've Crammed Down and Pretend Isn't There", it was "The Tree of Regret".

 

I still tend to disagree. She regretted abusing Henry. It's also canon that she realized she was wrong and she apologized. She also changed her ways and gave her son to someone better fitted to take care of him because of how remorseful she was. That doesn't negate her flip-flopping later, but when it comes to Henry I think she realized gaslighting him all those years was wrong.

 

 

It wasn't the "Tree of Stuff I've Crammed Down and Pretend Isn't There", it was "The Tree of Regret".

 

I don't trust A&E's worldbuilding or magical elements. They're plot hole prone. It was only called the "Tree of Regret" because it was the site where Pan abandoned Rumple. Pan was the one who said it was holding onto the regret inside, and honestly I don't trust him either.

Edited by KingOfHearts

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I still tend to disagree. She regretted abusing Henry. It's also canon that she realized she was wrong and she apologized. She also changed her ways and gave her son to someone better fitted to take care of him because of how remorseful she was. That doesn't negate her flip-flopping later, but when it comes to Henry I think she realized gaslighting him all those years was wrong.

 

 

I don't trust A&E's worldbuilding or magical elements. They're plot hole prone. It was only called the "Tree of Regret" because it was the site where Pan abandoned Rumple. Pan was the one who said it was holding onto the regret inside, and honestly I don't trust him either.

Oh, it's absolutely crap world building.  But it is the world they built.

 

The problem is, did she regret her actions, or regret that she didn't get what she wanted?  Because the way the story's been written so far, she gives absolutely no figs what happens to other people, as long as she gets the result she wants--and she wanted Henry to want her back.

 

And don't forget--she might be a blunt instrument most of the time, but she did grow up with Cora, and manage to manipulate Leopold (probably not that tough) for years and manipulate Sidney, as well.

 

And I don't trust Pan, either, but he had no reason to lie in that situation--and Regina herself busted out a list of her crimes and then proudly proclaimed she had no regret because she got what she wanted.  For her, remorse/regret was apparently tied to whether or not she got her shiny thing.

 

If it's just a matter of quickly processing guilt?  Well, in-show, less than five days ago she was planning on killing everyone in Henry's family who wasn't her.  That's a pretty hideous thing to do to Henry, let alone the rest of his family (and village)--and she's processed all of that, already?   Um . . .

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Well maybe not the one with Neal, but I didn't like Neal.

 

But with Neal is was like sorry your dad died and you have to go back to the EF, here's a hug, oh well!

 

That still stands out as an unintentionally funny moment. Belle was having a breakdown in the middle of the street and everyone just ignored it.

I expected Neal to drop next to her and hug her or something, but nothing.  He had also just lost his father and she just lost Rumple and they're sharing the same pain, and he just stood there.  But that's Neal for ya, I guess...

 

But that one and her very simple, "Good," was just perfection for me.

It was like all the hope in like 20 seconds of scene and then completely taken away because she won't remember.  Knife through my heart and I wasn't even fully on that bandwagon.

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That's a pretty hideous thing to do to Henry, let alone the rest of his family (and village)--and she's processed all of that, already?

 

I think she did, though, because she planned to die and was able to stop it. I think one of Regina's strengths is that she doesn't dwell on sadness or guilt. Of course, that's also her main weakness since she often externalizes it as homicidal vengeance instead, but when channeled for good instead of evil, it makes her effective. 

 

Oh, another favorite moment was when Hook told Neal that he (Hook) was going to stop pursuing Emma for a bit to give Neal a shot for sake of Henry but then made no secret of the fact that he expected Neal to utterly fail with Emma. I love how Hook was able to combine respect for Neal's place as Henry's father with respect for Emma as someone who makes her own decisions with complete confidence in the strength of his connection with Emma. It's why Hook/Emma is so much better than Neal/Emma, even if I will always root for the what-might-have-been of Hook/Tink. :) (although a Tink/Neal pairing could be referred to as Fairy Fire, which is a pretty name and reminds me of foxfire). 

 

I was sad, though, that in the goodbyes, Snow/Charming didn't tell Emma that they would find her, they they will always find her. I'm generally sick of that particular Charming family line, but if ever there was an appropriate moment for it, it was then. It seemed like a strange omission in an otherwise perfectly written set of goodbyes.

 

(and thanks for the birthday wishes!)

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Happy birthday!

 

Well maybe not the one with Neal, but I didn't like Neal. But that one and her very simple, "Good," was just perfection for me.

 

Everyone has their preferences. I like Belle and Neal, so I felt bad that they sort of got shoved aside in a moment of sadness. I generally have no tolerance for Regina, but was impressed that she did right by Emma and Henry when the chips were down. I hate Captain Swan, so my favorite moment wasn't "Good." It was when she kicked him in the balls.

 

But hey, at least there was something for everyone.

 

I expected Neal to drop next to her and hug her or something, but nothing.  He had also just lost his father and she just lost Rumple and they're sharing the same pain, and he just stood there.  But that's Neal for ya, I guess...

 

Can't remember if it was here or on TWOP, but wrote a whole rant on badly I thought that entire scene was written and blocked. It was clear that the director wanted them to stay where they were after Rumpel and Pan vanished (even Belle sort of fell in place). I'm sure this was to indicate being frozen in shock, but it came off weird.

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I cannot lie. I loved that. I know in story it was weird, but I like to imagine that it's a sign all of the other characters have as little patience with Rumpbelle as I do, and also think Belle's a dingbat.

 

Oh I hate Belle too and have zero understanding of Rumbelle, but it was just so strange and awful that no one bothered to even give her a hug. And Neal was just so non-reactive it was weird. But then, Neal never has any real emotion which is one of the reasons it's so hard to reconcile him with Baelfire.

 

I was sad, though, that in the goodbyes, Snow/Charming didn't tell Emma that they would find her, they they will always find her. I'm generally sick of that particular Charming family line, but if ever there was an appropriate moment for it, it was then. It seemed like a strange omission in an otherwise perfectly written set of goodbyes.

 

HA! Snow's so done with Emma. This couple who is all about hope and finding each other never even bothered to fight for their daughter. Unlike Emma who was desperately trying to find a way to stay together and had fought to do so even in Neverland while they were planning their treehouse, they didn't even try to tell her they would move heaven and earth to find a way to get back to her. Snow can just go home and forget about her daughter and work on making Baby Do Over to fix all her mommy needs that Emma was never going to meet. I admit it, I hate Snow White. Go away and leave your daughter to her happy normal life, Snow!  You and everyone in that group (with the exception of Hook since he wasn't there) were the reason her life has sucked balls. Stay away unless you want her for herself and not some Saviour who'll fix everything for you. Note that Neal, that's right Nealwas the one who told Emma that it wasn't over and that he'd find a way back to them. A&E can tell me that Snow loves her daughter til their faces turn blue, but this is exactly the kind of crap writing that says she can take her or leave her until she needs Emma to save her ass. And why is it that Hook shows up at Emma's door? Oh that's right. Her family needs her to save them. 

 

I think one of Regina's strengths is that she doesn't dwell on sadness or guilt. Of course, that's also her main weakness since she often externalizes it as homicidal vengeance instead, but when channeled for good instead of evil, it makes her effective.

 

That woman spends her entire existence dwelling on what makes her sad. And since life isn't perfect, she throws a freaking pity party every five seconds. She said straight up that she'd killed and tortured countless people, but that she didn't regret any of it because it got her Henry. That's not a heroic moment or a sign of redemption; that's a villain who won and doesn't even feel bad about the innocent lives she's destroyed to do it. Look, I don't need Regina apologizing to everyone or flailing about with anguish or whatever, but I do need her to feel bad about what she's done. She's been massively rewarded and never punished for any of her heinous deeds. Hundreds if not thousands of people are dead because of her. So what if she's past it, it's not for her to get past. She's fucking won all the prizes while those people rot in their graves and their families suffer. Regina rejoices in her spoils and doesn't feel a bit bad about it. Then they have endless Woegina oh my life is so hard scenes and it makes me want to hurl (it's why I drunk watch this show because I just look at the pretty colors when Regina is whining). 

Edited by KAOS Agent
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That woman spends her entire existence dwelling on what makes her sad. And since life isn't perfect, she throws a freaking pity party every five seconds. She said straight up that she'd killed and tortured countless people, but that she didn't regret any of it because it got her Henry. That's not a heroic moment or a sign of redemption; that's a villain who won and doesn't even feel bad about the innocent lives she's destroyed to do it.

Yeah, I think that's a lot of my problem with the "no regrets" thing. She's incapable of putting slights committed against her by other people behind her. She devoted her entire adult life to getting revenge for a mistake made by a child. But then she gets over the stuff she's done to other people quickly and easily. I don't care how compartmentalized you are, if you have no regrets about murdering your own father in order to get something that turned out to be empty and meaningless, then you're a bad person. A good person who was truly redeemed would be loaded with regrets.

 

And that "I have no regrets for the bad things because something good came of it" thing isn't supposed to work that way. Usually, it's something said by the victims, not the perpetrators, as in "I don't regret the horrible things that happened to me because something good came out of it." It's not supposed to be "I don't regret the suffering I caused other people because I got something good out of it." Again, someone who can feel this way is not a decent human being. That's a pure villain kind of attitude. Emma is allowed to say she doesn't regret what happened to her because otherwise she wouldn't have had Henry. Regina is not allowed to say she doesn't regret the bad things she did because otherwise -- if Emma hadn't grown up alone because of the curse so that she was a vulnerable teenager who ended up being taken advantage of by a creep who left her pregnant in jail -- she wouldn't have Henry.

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Spoiler

 

Well... Just rewatched... As a CS shipper that "good" was glorious! Specially now after S5, needed sime sugar!

I understand from a mother point of view it is really hard regret anything that happened and gave you the child. Is there any Switched at Birth viewers out there? Remember Kathryn at the court? How can you say you wished not to have one daughter for the other? 

But usually for most people (Emma, Snow) thinking about the regret of leaving your child for a better chance was hard because they lost their kids for years, even though they did not murder no one for that (well, Snow has killed but in self defense, usually). In Reginas case was darker, she should not regret having Henry, but she should feel sorry for the lives she took, the unhappiness she created. 

Plot reasons someone needed to not feel guilty. I wish it had been Emma or Snow. 

Belle on the ground was ugly. Those people are suppossed to be heroes, good people. It was not going to kill them to help Belle (even me, I hate that sick Rumbelle). 

Neal could vanish, dont care about him. But it is really good he is there and we can see even so CS is happening, for me it is a sign theyvare real, that Emma was capable of seeing Neal and realizing "father of my son, old love, there will always be a place for you in my heart, but you are not the one I want as my partner" . because Killian, that develish handsome pirate is amazing, good hearted indeed, smart, and always puts Emma first! <3

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^ That "good" scene is still one of my favorite CS moments, despite all the great stuff we've gotten since then. That one word had a lot of weight to it, imo.

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That's also the whole reason he tried to kiss her when he found her.

That scene at the town line is definitely awesome. One line, one word, more than enough to show where both characters were. This is why I'm convinced that Emma already knew who she wanted to give a chance to. Between her standing Neal up for that would be date, and "good", you don't actively encourage someone to think of you if you don't want them to.

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I think the "good" was Emma finally voicing what she had realized for some time--that Hook was the one she had chosen. In a way, this was like any other of Emma's about-to-die I Love Yous. I also can't help thinking that, on some level, Emma was hoping to motivate Hook to do the impossible and find her and Henry and reunite them all. Hook took that and ran with it. 

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That's unquestionably what it was and meant from her end. The speculation, I think, has more to do with Hook's interpretation of it. In retrospect, it would certainly be clear to him that yes, she wanted him to think about her and find a way to bring them all back together, but at the time, he had to have spent at least some time agonizing over whether that's really how she meant it, or if it was just his own wishful thinking that made him believe that.

I can also imagine him getting frustrated with himself over his obsession with that one word, as XrystalPond said, and then finally deciding to say screw it, choose to believe in the interpretation he wanted, and go for it.

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I still love this episode. (Sue me.) Even if the random flashbacks were pointless (and in Rumpbelle's case, a plot hole), it was still nice to see so many character moments jam-packed into one episode. The cliffhanger still ties for my favorite in the series, sitting next to the S1 finale. I don't think the writers ever really topped the stakes and the potential for long-term consequences. There's still a decent amount of BS in this episode (like Henry telling Regina he never should've went to find Emma, or how contrived the whole situation is) but it's outweighed by some of the show's best grandiose dramatic scenes. Rumple's sacrifice, Regina giving Henry/Emma good memories, and the disappearance of the town line rank high on my list of favorites. 

The setup for 3B is perfect. There's no way they can screw this up.

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This could have been a real turning point for Regina-- actually making a sacrifice, admitting that she made people miserable under the curse, doing something good for Henry and by extension Emma. Too bad they effed it up in the very next half season. 

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I was really anti-Snow in my last post in this thread. Apparently, I had strong feelings post 5A. This episode wasn't quite that bad to Snow, although I am still annoyed at them for once again disrupting Emma's life to fix their problems. They told her that she could get her wish and be happy living a normal life as a family with Henry. Then they want to rip that away from her to solve their problems once again. Their predicament better be damn dire or they need to have been exploring ways to reunite with Emma long before being told that she's the one needed to save them. Otherwise, Emma's happiness is being sacrificed once again not because they love and miss her, but because they need the Saviour.

This episode does highlight how little attention was paid to the timeline. Somehow Hook arrived in Neverland about the same time as wingless Tinkerbell. Those events only happened at least a century apart. It's distracting to see these obvious errors. 

Honestly, the end of this episode was the only time in the entire run of the show where I felt like Emma and Henry really were given their best chance at happiness. Given the situation we see them living in when Hook knocks at the door, they were definitely in the best situation I ever saw them in. They were happy, healthy and enjoying their lives.

Edited by KAOS Agent
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When I first watched this episode, I didn't like that Hook showed up at Emma's door at the end with dire warnings  I think it would have been more intriguing if it ended with Emma receiving a message from a bird saying "Help us" or something to that effect.  I would have had more anticipation hoping for a few episodes with just Emma and Henry somehow ending up in Storybrooke, or even better, in Oz or the Enchanted Forest.  

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23 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

This episode does highlight how little attention was paid to the timeline. Somehow Hook arrived in Neverland about the same time as wingless Tinkerbell. Those events only happened at least a century apart. It's distracting to see these obvious errors. 

Maybe this was supposed to have been later, when Hook's getting frustrated about not being able to reach Rumple? Because if it's soon after he arrived in Neverland, it's also right after Milah's death, and I'd hope that if he was going to devote more than a century to avenging her death, he'd wait more than five minutes after she died before he started flirting with anyone else. True, "flirt" is kind of his default state, but you'd think that a man that deep in mourning wouldn't be making bedroom eyes at the next woman to come along.

They really can't be consistent about Snow's character. In the same episode, they have a flashback with her being utterly despairing and other people having to give her the hope speech as well as a flashback with her giving a hope speech. The second was Mary Margaret, but given that Henry had a glimpse of seeing her as Snow, I think that was supposed to be Snow leaking through from beneath the curse. And yet no real time had passed between the two scenes, since the first was right before the curse and the second was during the curse.

The pointless and confusing flashbacks aside, I do like this one. It's mostly an ensemble piece, which is rare on this show. I guess even the scattershot flashbacks reflect that. Everyone has a role to play and something to contribute to the outcome, except maybe Emma, though her contribution came in the lead-up to this, with her being the one to figure out the Panry switch.

It's interesting that they have a convent and this large church in town, but never a mention of religion, other than Hook's quip about needing to prepare his soul for the afterlife. The fairies seem to be following the Catholic traditions, with the Mother Superior being laid out in the church, so they don't seem to have dropped all that when they got their real memories/identities back.

I think after this episode was when I got really into the show. I'd been watching it all along, but it was on that cliffhanger that I got really excited and was anticipating the following arc.

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57 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Maybe this was supposed to have been later, when Hook's getting frustrated about not being able to reach Rumple? Because if it's soon after he arrived in Neverland, it's also right after Milah's death, and I'd hope that if he was going to devote more than a century to avenging her death, he'd wait more than five minutes after she died before he started flirting with anyone else. True, "flirt" is kind of his default state, but you'd think that a man that deep in mourning wouldn't be making bedroom eyes at the next woman to come along.

The whole scene was full of holes, but here's the relevant content that essentially states it's a recent arrival:

Smee: Don't you think we should head back to the ship?

Hook: Not until I've found a way off this accursed island. We've dawdled here for too long. Now that I know there's a dagger to end the Dark One, we must return to our land.

Hook learned about the Dark One's dagger from Bae. Since he and Bae met up soon after his arrival in Neverland and he refers to this being new information which renews his purpose, as well as talking about "dawdling" (not something one would call a century of living in Neverland), this occurred very early in his time there. He hadn't even left to do cake runs for Pan yet.

Then there was Tinkerbell, who told Hook that she used to be a fairy "a long time ago" and then her wings were taken away.  It's just frustrating to watch when these errors are so off. On top of the ridiculous continuity errors, it also highlighted to me how stupid it was to tie Tinkerbell to Regina because it only places Tink in Neverland for at most a few years pre-curse and Hook was wandering around the Enchanted Forest for a while before the curse was cast. Their time in Neverland couldn't have overlapped much at all. 

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8 hours ago, Camera One said:

When I first watched this episode, I didn't like that Hook showed up at Emma's door at the end with dire warnings  I think it would have been more intriguing if it ended with Emma receiving a message from a bird saying "Help us" or something to that effect.  I would have had more anticipation hoping for a few episodes with just Emma and Henry somehow ending up in Storybrooke, or even better, in Oz or the Enchanted Forest.  

I would've loved to see Henry and Emma just wandering Oz. It would've been a fresher way for Emma to get her memories back, being thrown into a fantasy world. (And one that isn't where she was born to boot.) 

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8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would've loved to see Henry and Emma just wandering Oz.

I would have loved her reaction to Glinda showing up in a bubble.  Maybe Glinda could have been Blue's twin sister Glue.

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On 12/7/2018 at 12:46 PM, KingOfHearts said:

like Henry telling Regina he never should've went to find Emma

This bothers me enormously, this is when I started to dislike Henry a lot. 

Outside of this I love this episode. I get teary eyed at the town disappearing. Hook’s declaration that he’ll think of her is still swoon worthy. I appreciate that he could get her to smile even in such terrible circumstance with a little joke about her car.

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1 hour ago, daxx said:

This bothers me enormously, this is when I started to dislike Henry a lot. 

I don't hold this too much against Henry. He was still a little boy who was about to lose everything he'd ever known including his mother. I may have serious issues about how they have suddenly turned the Regina/Henry relationship into this perfect thing, but Henry is blaming himself for this whole thing now and that's a very understandable reaction for an 11 year old. 

What makes it less palatable is the response to his remark. It started out okay with Regina admitting that she was wrong and that it's all her fault because she cast the curse out of vengeance, but then it went to blaming the whole "villains don't get happy endings" idea instead of continuing with the acceptance of responsibility and consequences for bad deeds. What makes Henry's comments particularly sad is that he said that he should have lived under the curse with her and none of this ever would have happened. We saw in Henry's flashback for the episode just how sad and lonely he was. His feeling like he needed to sacrifice his happiness so that Regina could continue to "win" and everyone else would suffer needed to be addressed instead of simply calling herself a villain who isn't allowed a happy ending.

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1 minute ago, KAOS Agent said:

It started out okay with Regina admitting that she was wrong and that it's all her fault because she cast the curse out of vengeance, but then it went to blaming the whole "villains don't get happy endings" idea instead of continuing with the acceptance of responsibility and consequences for bad deeds.

I think that comment works better in this context, since Regina knew she was a villain because she did bad things. It wasn't because the "universe" placed her in a column arbitrary, like what's insinuated later in the series. She has a lot more remorse here than...

Spoiler

... in 4A where she's crying like a child behind a door. 

At least here she recognizes everything that's happening is partially her fault.

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2 hours ago, daxx said:
Spoiler

Maded all the more poignant that he kept his word and also appears to have not slept with any other women while poor clueless cursed Emma is getting bedded by a monkey man.

Hook’s declaration that he’ll think of her is still swoon worthy. I appreciate that he could get her to smile even in such terrible circumstance with a little joke about her car.

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1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

I may have serious issues about how they have suddenly turned the Regina/Henry relationship into this perfect thing, but Henry is blaming himself for this whole thing now and that's a very understandable reaction for an 11 year old. 

But I think the suddenly turning their relationship into a perfect thing is what makes his reaction not work so much. There's no indication in season one that Henry and Regina were ever all that close. We even see in the flashback in this episode how lonely and miserable he was. He hasn't even lived with Regina since the very beginning of season two. Being separated from Regina wouldn't have been all that traumatic to him. Not that he'd be celebrating, and maybe there would be some "might have been" about being separated just as she was starting to turn her life around, but I don't know that he'd be wishing he hadn't brought Emma to town. If he was going to blame himself, it should have been more for having been duped by Pan, that if he hadn't gone so far as to hand over his heart and had listened to his parents, maybe they'd have made a clean escape from Pan and wouldn't have been in their current fix.

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I agree that Henry should be blaming himself for being a dumbass and handing his heart to Pan rather than helping to free countless people from a curse and reuniting families, but the writers wanted to tie it all back to Regina and their theme of villains not getting happy endings, so they went with this. Never mind that the heroes aren't getting a happy ending either. I still wonder if they even considered that Snowing were actually paying a much bigger price than Regina. Claiming that it was Regina's price to pay was awful. If this show truly had villains paying a price for their magic, Regina would have been returned to the Enchanted Forest by herself or had everyone's memories of her relationship to Henry wiped away. The way this was done, Snowing once again lost their daughter and lost a grandson as well as being stuck with the knowledge that their daughter had gone back to thinking that they had abandoned her.

Who knows if the other people were super thrilled about returning to the Enchanted Forest, which was overrun by ogres, overgrown and a total shambles when Emma/Snow left a couple of months ago. Do Gus Gus's friends really want to be mice again? Is Archie cool with being a cricket? Just whose price was this again?

Edited by KAOS Agent
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10 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Who knows if the other people were super thrilled about returning to the Enchanted Forest, which was overrun by ogres, overgrown and a total shambles when Emma/Snow left a couple of months ago. Do Gus Gus's friends really want to be mice again? Is Archie cool with being a cricket? Just whose price was this again?

Yeah, Hook and Neal were thrilled to be back in the EF again separated from Emma end Henry. But you know it was Regina's price. Smh 

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Maybe the price should have been Regina being sent back and separated from everyone else, but I guess then we'd have had a whole "Save Regina!" arc, and no, please.

It still makes no sense to me that Neal and Hook had to go back, too. It was all about undoing the curse, but their presence had nothing to do with the curse. Undoing the curse shouldn't have changed anything about them. Ditto with Tink and Ariel and the surviving Lost Boys. They were never cursed, so undoing the curse shouldn't have affected them. It might have been bad for them if they'd been in Storybrook when the curse was reversed and everything was destroyed, but if they'd crossed the town line, they shouldn't have been affected.

Especially since we later learn ...

Spoiler

That Ursula and Lily were in our world and weren't sucked back by the curse reverse. Hook and Neal were in the same position as them, having come over apart from the curse, so if Ursula and Lily didn't go, Hook, Neal, Tink, and the Lost Boys shouldn't have.

Then there's the clothing. Everyone seems to have been put back in the clothing they were wearing when the curse hit. Hook was already wearing clothing he'd brought over from their world. Why would the curse reverse have changed the color of his vest? I somehow doubt Neal was wearing the clothing he'd been wearing in the Enchanted Forest, so did it just give him random local clothing? What about the kids who've grown about a year since the curse broke? Did the clothing adjust to fit them?

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2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Especially since we later learn ...

Also...

Spoiler

What did Ingrid do? Did she just hang out in the Enchanted Forest and start a franchise there for her ice cream shop using her ice powers? 

 

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It still makes no sense to me that Neal and Hook had to go back, too. It was all about undoing the curse, but their presence had nothing to do with the curse. Undoing the curse shouldn't have changed anything about them. Ditto with Tink and Ariel and the surviving Lost Boys. They were never cursed, so undoing the curse shouldn't have affected them. It might have been bad for them if they'd been in Storybrook when the curse was reversed and everything was destroyed, but if they'd crossed the town line, they shouldn't have been affected.

This would have too many interesting consequences for these writers to handle. All they cared about was separating Emma and Henry from everybody else. It would've been vastly more intriguing if Neal and Hook had to deal with Memoryless!Emma in spite of their love triangle. Maybe they'd have to live together in New York.

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4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:
Spoiler

What did Ingrid do? Did she just hang out in the Enchanted Forest and start a franchise there for her ice cream shop using her ice powers? 

 

Spoiler

If she was like everyone else, she would have been reverted to her Ice Queen clothes, even though she didn't come over in the curse, so surely they'd have noticed the Ice Queen in their midst when they got back to the Enchanted Forest.

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would've been vastly more intriguing if Neal and Hook had to deal with Memoryless!Emma in spite of their love triangle. Maybe they'd have to live together in New York.

Now I'm picturing Neal, Hook, and Tink having to escape with the Lost Boys on the Jolly Roger before the curse reverse kicked in, since they wouldn't have been taken back by the curse, but they'd be in danger if they were still around the town. Ariel would have swum away to get back to the Enchanted Forest so she could be with Eric once the curse returned him. Hook and Neal would have become competitive about playing "dad" to the Lost Boys as a way of showing who'd be a better father to Henry. They'd have had to figure out where memoryless Emma went

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14 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This would have too many interesting consequences for these writers to handle. All they cared about was separating Emma and Henry from everybody else. It would've been vastly more intriguing if Neal and Hook had to deal with Memoryless!Emma in spite of their love triangle. Maybe they'd have to live together in New York.

Did you read my fic. That's exactly what happened. 😂 

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22 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would've been vastly more intriguing if Neal and Hook had to deal with Memoryless!Emma in spite of their love triangle. Maybe they'd have to live together in New York.

It just occurred to me -- Emma would have remembered Neal. She wouldn't have remembered the stuff about him being Rumple's son or him having "no choice" but to let her go to jail for his crime because she was the Savior, but she would have remembered him as Henry's deadbeat dad who let her go to jail for his crime and who utterly abandoned her.

Spoiler

In fact, she and Henry talk about this in the subsequent episode. This Henry has been told the story and is primed to think of his dad as a jerk who screwed over his mother.

So I don't think Neal's reunion with Emma would have gone the way he hoped. She'd probably punch him, and his story about why he had no choice but to abandon her wouldn't work if she didn't know about the curse and had no reason to believe.

But I have caught myself musing on the idea of Neal, Hook, Tink, and the Lost Boys sailing the Jolly Roger down the east coast, searching for Emma. They'd have to put in at a port to get supplies, which Neal would have to deal with, as the only one familiar with this world. Hook would be baffled at why he got water in all those little bottles when Neal brings in a flat of bottled water. Eventually, people would notice the ship named the Jolly Roger, with a crew including a guy with a hook for a hand, but they'd assume it was a publicity stunt involving actors who are very committed to their roles. Neal might come up with the plan to get on TV and hope that would jog Emma's memory, but he'd make Hook be the spokesperson because Neal should still be wanted and getting on TV would be bad for him. I doubt Emma getting caught got him off the hook, since there was video evidence (how long is the statute of limitations on larceny?). The media would love the younger, hotter version of Captain Hook, sailing his tall ship around, looking for his lost love. Meanwhile, Emma sees the report and rolls her eyes, maybe talks about how cheesy it is, but she also DVRs it and finds herself rewatching it and getting a bit of a celebrity crush on Captain Hook.

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I agree that everyone else had just as much price to pay as Regina, perhaps more. The show painted it as Regina having the biggest price to pay, or the only one paying the price. That's simply not true, because Snow and David are not only losing their daughter AGAIN, they're losing a grandson to boot this time. And Neal just discovered he had a son, and had just rescued Henry. Then Henry is separated from him again. And there's tons of other characters (who aren't covered as much on the show) who are losing loved ones too, I'm sure. I know Regina loves Henry, but she's not the only one paying a price, far from it. Which does suck, because Regina was the one who committed the act (casting the curse) that needed a price paid to begin with.

Spoiler

It also sucks that Regina conveniently forgets this when tantruming to Emma about "consequences" in the first half of Season 4 (between pointing the finger at Emma and sulking that the book didn't give her a happy ending simply because she doesn't commit evil acts anymore, that was an insufferable batch of episodes)

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4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It just occurred to me -- Emma would have remembered Neal. She wouldn't have remembered the stuff about him being Rumple's son or him having "no choice" but to let her go to jail for his crime because she was the Savior, but she would have remembered him as Henry's deadbeat dad who let her go to jail for his crime and who utterly abandoned her.

Which would've made it all the more complicated. Would it be more difficult for Emma to trust Henry's deadbeat dad or a strange pirate with eyeliner?

Edited by KingOfHearts
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7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It just occurred to me -- Emma would have remembered Neal. She wouldn't have remembered the stuff about him being Rumple's son or him having "no choice" but to let her go to jail for his crime because she was the Savior, but she would have remembered him as Henry's deadbeat dad who let her go to jail for his crime and who utterly abandoned her.

This is exactly what I did in my fic where Hook and Neal didn’t go back. And yes, Emma wasn’t happy to see Neal. 😂 

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3 hours ago, daxx said:

This is exactly what I did in my fic where Hook and Neal didn’t go back. And yes, Emma wasn’t happy to see Neal. 😂 

I think I've given up on the rewatch, as I know it (IMO) is mostly downhill from here, but I'd love to read this fic. Link?

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7 hours ago, daxx said:

This is exactly what I did in my fic where Hook and Neal didn’t go back. And yes, Emma wasn’t happy to see Neal. 😂 

Do you have a link? I'd love to read it. 

ETA: Sorry, I posted before I read @companionenvy's post. Didn't mean to nag :)

Edited by profdanglais

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5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

think I've given up on the rewatch, as I know it (IMO) is mostly downhill from here, but I'd love to read this fic. Link?

Here. My beta for this goes here Dianthus. Without her input it wouldn’t be half the story it turned into since I’m really not a writer but the way they pulled Neal and Hook back to the EF really bugged me.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/3408677/chapters/7463360

Edited by daxx
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