Relationships: Speed Dating

[adora721]

On 4/20/2019 at 6:24 AM, Starry said:

Even with Joe, Caitlin apologized for what she did to him and Cecile conveniently leaving Iris out of her apology and Joe gave her a hug. 

Think about how deliberate that writing was to leave out Iris, Joe's daughter. I've had people say to me on other forums that Caitlin did apologize to Iris because she apologized to Joe. As if Joe is the representative of Iris or Cecile - nope. But even if you look at that apology as an implied apology to Cecile, Caitlin left Iris' name out of that apology completely. So, that "logic" doesn't work. 

If someone were to say that the writers were leaving an apology for the "Girl's Night Out" episode later in the S4, then that also fails since neither Killer Frost nor Caitlin gave Iris an apology in that episode.  Instead, Iris made excuse after excuse for Caitlin and Killer Frost.

The writing is clearly and deliberately refusing to make Caitlin Snow give an apology to Iris West-Allen. And this is separate from any alleged BTS bad blood between the two actresses. So, why is that? It makes no sense.

[adora721]

On 4/20/2019 at 12:04 PM, VCRTracking said:

As I said this the whole KF thing happened at the time we all thought it was caused by Barry messing with the timeline and for Barry to get mad at Caitlin would be seen as really shitty on his part. Ditto, Joe and Iris if they still held it against her when it was shown as a different personality. There

It was all Caitlin in 3x7; Killer Frost wasn't trying to get rid of herself. Caitlin committed at least 11 felony crimes trying to get to Alchemy.

In S4, Caitlin worked for Amunet in slave trafficking and no one said anything negative thing about it.  Barry even told her she was "good person" later in the season. 

Face it, Teflon Cait doesn't get treated like everyone else.

ETA: Even if you make the distinction between Cait and KF,  KF still gets special treatment from Barry. When Barry goes to the future in  "The Once and Future Flash" in S3, it's the timeline in which Iris died, not HR. Barry meets KF, who's imprisoned, and Julian is a caretaker. KF brags to Barry about how great a team she and Savitar were. And what did KF and Savitar do together? They killed the Black Flash and killed Iris. So, Barry is hearing this person actually throw it in his face that she helped murder the love is his life. A reasonable response, even an irrational response, to that would be some form of momentary anger, but it barely registers in Barry's response.  Imagine if Barry had that insipid kind of response to Hunter Zolomon after he murdered Henry or to Thawne.  People would think something was wrong with Barry.

Edited April 21, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

On 4/20/2019 at 8:52 AM, phoenics said:

At least they let Cecile be afraid of KF - it's a wonder Iris never was even after all she did.  I mean - the last thing Iris remembers before seeing HR die was KF blasting HER so hard she knocked her out.  It's unrealistic for Iris to never feel afraid or wary of KF and honestly by extension of Caitlin.  

So much this! The writers have refused to explain KF's animosity towards Iris or Cisco or why KF is evil. We don't even know why Icicle is evil. If there's no rhyme or reason for KF's evil towards Iris, then Iris should always be worried that one day KF will try to harm her again. Even Savitar's reason for hating Iris makes some sense, not so much with KF.

Edited April 21, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

On 4/21/2019 at 11:26 PM, adora721 said:

ETA: Even if you make the distinction between Cait and KF,  KF still gets special treatment from Barry. When Barry goes to the future in  "The Once and Future Flash" in S3, it's the timeline in which Iris died, not HR. Barry meets KF, who's imprisoned, and Julian is a caretaker. KF brags to Barry about how great a team she and Savitar were. And what did KF and Savitar do together? They killed the Black Flash and killed Iris. So, Barry is hearing this person actually throw it in his face that she helped murder the love is his life. A reasonable response, even an irrational response, to that would be some form of momentary anger, but it barely registers in Barry's response.  Imagine if Barry had that insipid kind of response to Hunter Zolomon after he murdered Henry or to Thawne.  People would think something was wrong with Barry.

In that scene Killer Frost realizes that the man in front of her is a past version of Barry because there was no hate in his eyes yet. Future Barry hated Killer Frost. Imagine if this show had killed off Iris for real, they would have retconned Barry's hatred for Frost in order to keep her on the team. I'm shivering thinking about it.

On 4/21/2019 at 11:33 PM, adora721 said:

So much this! The writers have refused to explain KF's animosity towards Iris or Cisco or why KF is evil. We don't even know why Icicle is evil. If there's no rhyme or reason for KF's evil towards Iris, then Iris should always be worried that one day KF will try to harm her again. Even Savitar's reason for hating Iris makes some sense, not so much with KF.

Savitar didn't even hate Iris. She was someone he had to eliminate to ascend to power but he had nothing against her specifically. His beef was with Barry. I don't think KF had anything against Iris either in the sense that she didn't care about what she did as long as she and the others didn't get in her way. I mean, I don't get why KF is evil but as an evil person, she's supposed to antagonize the good guys. It's Caitlin's most recent behavior that makes me wonder. She snapped at Iris and was rude to her when she offered to bring back Frost together. This season the direction focused on her shady faces on two separate occasions. The positive interactions completely stopped. The problem is that I don't think I'm supposed to read into it.

[adora721]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

Future Barry hated Killer Frost

We never got to see that on screen. And we've seen Barry be angry with villains who hurt the people he cares about before. Even just a  momentary "Flash"😁 of anger after she bragged about being a good team with Savitar would have made sense even from that version of Barry.

7 hours ago, Starry said:

Savitar didn't even hate Iris. She was someone he had to eliminate to ascend to power but he had nothing against her specifically. His beef was with Barry. 

At least you can articulate why Savitar, a time remnant of Barry who remembers loving Iris, wanted to kill Iris. The same can't be said of KF. She's just willing to help kill Iris for????????

7 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't think KF had anything against Iris either in the sense that she didn't care about what she did as long as she and the others didn't get in her way.

And yet, in "Girl's Night Out", Killer Frost threatened to freeze Iris' arm off when Iris tried to befriend her. And even after Iris convinced her to turn from the dark side, KF issued no apology to Iris for helping Savitar in S3 or threatening to maime her in that very same episode.  Recall that KF went to Ralph to cheer him up in S4, so it's not like KF is incapable of showing some semblance of kindness or empathy. She just doesn't show it to Iris. What's up with that?

[BeautifulFlower]

About 5x19

The argument between Barry and Iris was so good. It has to be the most realistic one ever. Real couples would argue like this

With that said, there was some dialogue from Barry that bothered med.

When Iris was tearing up while saying she didn't even get to say goodbye, Barry's response did not sit well with me. HE saw his wife tearing up and he says "Dammit Iris she lied to us for months" First, he raised his voice when Iris didn't. That's a no in my book. The way he said this, Barry was basically telling Iris "So what if you didn't say goodbye?" It's like he didn't care.

Moving on. When Iris tells him how he never considers what she would think, Barry's response was "I didn't think I had to." I'm sorry. He didn't think he HAD to consider his wife feelings. Wtf Barry?

Finally, Barry says this "If it was anyone else, you would agree." With these last two dialogues, Barry seems to have this mentality that Iris should agree with him always. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It doesn't sit well with me. Spouse should support each other, but that doesn't equal always agreeing with each other. You will have disagreements in your relationship. One should never expect the other to always agree with them.

[BeautifulFlower]

One more thing. I don't get where people thought Iris was gonna divorce Barry over what he did. I don't get it. They thought she would because of the letter she was writing. Even a few characters gave the impression, WA was heading towards a divorce.

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

The argument between Barry and Iris was so good. It has to be the most realistic one ever. Real couples would argue like this 

With that said, there was some dialogue from Barry that bothered med.

I think both were right AND wrong about certain things. Some of that was the fault of the writing, which was troublesome (out of character, not taking into account their history, etc.) with some of the dialogue, as noted.

All that being said, while I obviously prefer that Barry & Iris don't fight, I still liked that we got that scene (and a make up scene later) it's the meatiest thing Barry/Grant and Iris/Candice have gotten to do in a while. We should have been getting more of that this season - not necessarily big blowups, but more conversations about Nora and parenting.

[adora721]

The one thing I wish Iris had said is, "Ok, Barry. I'll agree with you if you answer me this: If Henry or your mother, Nora, were still alive, can you tell me any scenario or any mistake you could ever make that would make them abandon you?" I'd love to have heard Barry's response to that.

Edited April 27, 2019 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I think both were right AND wrong about certain things. Some of that was the fault of the writing, which was troublesome (out of character, not taking into account their history, etc.) with some of the dialogue, as noted.

All that being said, while I obviously prefer that Barry & Iris don't fight, I still liked that we got that scene (and a make up scene later) it's the meatiest thing Barry/Grant and Iris/Candice have gotten to do in a while. We should have been getting more of that this season - not necessarily big blowups, but more conversations about Nora and parenting.

I still can't believe this episode was by the Nickelodeon writers.

[Trini]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:47 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I still can't believe this episode was by the Nickelodeon writers.

LOL! The episode still had problems, but they exceeded my low expectations.

[Trini]

Kamilla has to make at least one more appearance before the season ends, right? There's been speculation that Cisco's relationship with her could be leading to an exit storyline for him, but I don't think they've built up the relationship enough for that.

[BeautifulFlower]

13 hours ago, Trini said:

Kamilla has to make at least one more appearance before the season ends, right? There's been speculation that Cisco's relationship with her could be leading to an exit storyline for him, but I don't think they've built up the relationship enough for that.

No, they haven't. This show runs in real time. If I'm correct, Kamilla and Cisco have only been a official for a month going on two. This is why I was annoyed with Ralph in 5x17. Like, why were they rushing for Cisco to tell Kamilla his secret about Team Flash and being Vibe?

If they end the season in actual May 2019, they would have been together for 3 months. That is not a deep enough relationship for Cisco to be leaving the team for.

[Trini]

Well, took them long enough to even hint at a love life for Ralph. But will they actually do anything with that in the last two episodes of the season? Kinda late. But maybe it's just a hint for next season.

(If they bring in a love interest for him, they better be deleting at least one other cast member.)

Edited May 3, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

3 hours ago, RedVitC said:

...

I love Joe and Barry talks as much as the next person, but why can't Barry and Iris talk to each other about how they feel? Yes, Joe knows better than either of them how to be a parent, and I get that they wanted more than one person to talk to Barry about trusting Nora to get him to accept, but a discussion about how weird it is to suddenly be a parent to a grown daughter and how it takes time to get used to that emotionally is a conversation Barry and Iris should have had together at some point during this season.

I thought after last episode we would see them working together to get Nora back instead we got another disagreement. I'm really disappointed that since Nora's secret was revealed we didn't have a single scene of Barry and Iris just sitting absorbing the craziness of their life together without trying to make a point. Like I get that children tend to take priority for parents especially when there is an issue, but they also care and worry about each other and I’ve missed that in this arc.

...

The "suddenly parents" trope is not that uncommon, so this is a basic thing one would expect to get out of this type of storyline - especially if it's a season-long theme - but yet only a few lines in the beginning of the season.

I think it's a showrunner fail. To me it seems that Helbing checked out halfway through. The show brought up several ideas/themes that could have been explored more, but it wasn't consistent throughout the season.

And yes, it's disappointing that last season built up Barry & Iris as a power couple, but they seemed more interested in their individual relationships with Nora than how they would handle the new dynamic together.

[RedVitC]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:23 AM, Trini said:

The "suddenly parents" trope is not that uncommon, so this is a basic thing one would expect to get out of this type of storyline - especially if it's a season-long theme - but yet only a few lines in the beginning of the season.

I think maybe it's because they went so fully in on the parents thing from the start. For example, by episode 5 they already had Iris saying things like 'I love Nora with all my heart' and I think  (I actually don't know) around that time they also had Barry say something like he didn't know he could love that strongly. Which means they went from Barry and Iris meeting grown up Nora to being and feeling (to themselves) fully like parents pretty fast.

Not just on an emotional level, it would have been fun and potentially humorous if they played a bit more with the weirdness of it all a bit more.

Not to make excuses, but I feel like this season they had to deal with some changes which could have affected things. Obviously Jesse's temporary break, but also just looking at things that were teased like Wally being back for two episodes, romance for Ralph that didn't end up panning out yet (I made a post a while back about Hartley also teasing something for Ralph he was really excited about around the time of the 100th episode, but I don't think I could pinpoint what that was so maybe that was also changed), I feel like some things didn't go according to plan/had to be changed at relatively short notice for some reason or other.

Edited May 5, 2019 by RedVitC
trying to be more clear + had some more thoughts

[Trini]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

(I made a post a while back about Hartley also teasing something for Ralph he was really excited about around the time of the 100th episode, but I don't think I could pinpoint what that was so maybe that was also changed), I feel like some things didn't go according to plan/had to be changed at relatively short notice for some reason or other.

I feel so bad for poor Hartley. The producers have been telling him that Sue will brought in since last season, and ... then nothing. But I do agree that TPTB lost control of a few things this season, and it shows.

[adora721]

Seems others are noticing the lack of eye contact and dialogue between "BFFs" Iris and Caitlin:

"Just one thing more: Is it too early for Season 6 Wish Lists? Because I now need TPTB to take a firm hand and fix whatever bad juju is happening between Caitlin Snow and Iris West-Allen. In the morning briefing scene at STAR Labs, Iris could barely sustain a glance at Caitlin, much less address her, even during the part where Barry offered Caitlin bereavement time off. I’m dying to know how Iris, a no-nonsense Black woman, really feels about that ice monster, that willing accessory to her near-murder, working at STAR Labs and treating her child and in her home with her husband?! What are the writers even smoking when Eobard 'Oops I Killed Again’ Thawne (!!!) gave Iris effective relationship and family advice and her own maid of honor was nowhere to be found on this issue all season long?! I feel that Season 6’s show runner needs to take a firm hand to address this and if a certain pizza lover doesn’t like it, remind her that she does not own the network, the characters or the show and will do as the script says. "

[Starry]

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

I’m dying to know how Iris, a no-nonsense Black woman, really feels about that ice monster, that willing accessory to her near-murder, working at STAR Labs and treating her child and in her home with her husband?!

This was addressed in season 4. Iris doesn't care. She was the one who reintroduced Frost into the team.

I don't need them to fix anything. The show has problems juggling more than one relationship for each character and after the horrible season Barry and Iris had I'd rather the writers give them more scenes than waste screen time on a one-sided friendship their hearts aren't into. Both Iris and Caitlin have a better friendship with Ralph.

Caitlin has supported Iris two times in five years, when she made her open up about Barry in 2x18 and when she adviced them to try couples therapy. I don't recall anything else. If Kamilla stays past this season, I'd rather she become Iris' friend.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

I feel so bad for poor Hartley. The producers have been telling him that Sue will brought in since last season, and ... then nothing. But I do agree that TPTB lost control of a few things this season, and it shows.

Is there any room for Ralph to get a love interest? The cast is already huge. Hartley didn't even appear in all the episodes and he barely had anything to do in some of the ones that he was in. 

Next season, I really hope they show Barry and Iris reconnecting as a young couple in love, especially with the upcoming crisis. It is ridiculous how they unnecessarily aged them to make this Nora story work.

Edited May 5, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Is there any room for Ralph to get a love interest? The cast is already huge. Hartley didn't even appear in all the episodes and he barely had anything to do in some of the ones that he was in. 

There's always room if they want to do it. (See: Season 3, where literally everyone had a love interest) Whoever it is doesn't have to be a regular.

4 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't need them to fix anything. The show has problems juggling more than one relationship for each character and after the horrible season Barry and Iris had I'd rather the writers give them more scenes than waste screen time on a one-sided friendship their hearts aren't into. Both Iris and Caitlin have a better friendship with Ralph.

Exactly. I wanted Iris and Caitlin to be friends, but then seasons 3 & 4 happened. The writers were never into it, and I'm over it. Caitlin can continue to stay on the sidelines, and they can cultivate both women's relationships with other people.

[adora721]

All I can wish for in S6, besides the removal of one CS, is that Don West-Allen (or whatever his name is) loves his mother like nobody's business. That would make up for how Nora worships her absent father and treats Iris like public enemy number 1.

Edited May 12, 2019 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

On 5/5/2019 at 10:33 AM, Trini said:

There's always room if they want to do it. (See: Season 3, where literally everyone had a love interest) Whoever it is doesn't have to be a regular.

Exactly. I wanted Iris and Caitlin to be friends, but then seasons 3 & 4 happened. The writers were never into it, and I'm over it. Caitlin can continue to stay on the sidelines, and they can cultivate both women's relationships with other people.

This. Season 3 ruined a chance of friendship between Iris and Caitlin. First off, why have Caitlin's alter ego team up to try to kill Iris. Iris never did anything to her. It also doesn't help that in season 3 they basically portrayed that Caitlin and Killer Frost were the same. Caitlin was aware of what Killer Frost was doing. Iris was trying to get Barry to also help Caitlin, but the same couldn't be said for the opposite. The Philosopher's stone thing still pisses me off. At the time she took it, she knew it was risking Iris life. She didn't care at all.

Then season 4 happen. I still hate 4x05. I can't believe they had Iris coddle Caitlin in that episode. I hate that Iris downplayed Cecile's fear over seeing Killer Frost again. Like, what? Cecile had every right to feel that way. Iris should've been mad over seeing Killer Frost again. But nope. She immediately forgave her.

I didn't like Caitlin's "work friends" comment. If she felt that way for a long time, then how come SHE didn't make the first move to hang out with Iris? She came off as if Iris should've been the one to ask to hang out outside of Star Labs. Ugh, and we end up getting just that in the end.

Season 4 failed on the friendship for them , Waiting 4 years is too late. The friendship was one sided anyway. It was always Iris being there for Caitlin, but never vice versa.

I did not mean for this to be long. I'm just glad the writers dropped their friendship this season. I really need them to give Iris a good friend. Linda would've been perfect. Malese wanted to come back at some point. I remember her saying that. Candice has wanted Malese to come back. Get on it writers. If not, can we at least have Iris and Kamilla be friends. They're going to be working together.

[adora721]

The writers  and producers have shown normal friendships or friendly interactions among team Flash members in all seasons, which indicates that showing those friendships is a priority for them. Those strong bonds are what makes team Flash, "a family". This has been a priority since S1.

Here's the thing: Caitlin/KF tried to kill Cisco and Barry, too, but that didn't dampen their friendships at all. If this was the real world, their friendships would have ended once she tried to kill them. The writers and producers wanted to keep them bonded and they expanded these bonds beyond Barry, Cisco, and Cait in several ways. Let's just discuss Iris and Cait's expanding bonds.

With regard to Cait expanding her bonds, she reached out to Joe in 4x1, offered an apology for what she did to Cecile, and hugged Joe. Have we seen Caitlin hug Iris? I don't recall. Caitlin never reached to Iris or apologized for what she did to Iris on Savitar's behalf. Caitlin took initiative to have a Jitters get together with just Joe in S4. Caitlin has asked Joe for his advice.  The only time I recall Caitlin asking something of Iris was about info. on the burning man in S1. In fact, Iris was the initator in most of her "friendship" interactions with Cait in S4, which was very one-sided.

Joe didn't make an excuse for Caitlin when she apologized nor did he coddle her when he outed her manipulating the team to work with Amunet.  The closest Iris has come to putting Cait on blast was for a split moment in 4x1.

Even Cecile and Caitlin have a sorta normal friendly relationship based on Cecile telling her about Thomas in S4, and they shared that side-eyed grin when Nora insulted Iris at the baseball game in S5. And when Nora blocked Iris' calls, she didn't block Cait's number in S5.  Caitlin and Ralph have done the buddy storyline about breaking into Tannhauser Labs and went to the artic together.

With regard to expanding Iris' bonds on the team, since S2, we've seen Iris interact well with Cisco. In S4, we saw Iris interact well with Harry Wells and later, Marlize Devoe. In fact, I think Iris had more friendship chemistry with Marlize in two episodes than Iris had with Cait in 5 seasons.  In S5, we've seen Iris interact so well with Ralph. And of course, Iris interacts well with Cecile; she encouraged the relationship with her father and talked about her personal fears and issues with Cecile.

The only wierdness in all the STAR Labs relationships is between Iris and Caitlin. The only reasons they did any psuedo-friendship between Iris and Cait in S4 was to:

• Use Iris to absolve Caitlin without requiring Caitlin to apologize to Iris.
• Get Caitlin into the WestAllen wedding party.
• Deal with media scrutinity about the lack of friendship between the two women. 

This isn't about writers not being into a Caitlin/Iris friendship. I firmly believe the writers would have written a normal, healthy friendship with an onscreen apology from Cait to Iris (like Cait gave to Joe) if not for some BTS shenanigans (strong dislike) between these two actresses. I suspect, too, that because AJK was in charge through S4.5, he wouldn't allow Cait to apologize to Iris as a favor to DP. These are the only things, IMO, that explain why these two characters have not been consistently friendly on screen since S2. AJK made sure the writing was one-sided; he made sure Iris, Caitlin's victim, did all the initiating, did all the coddling,  and made all the effort to embrace the woman who tried to help murder her without Caitlin ever having to utter one syllable of an apology or be redeemed. 

In S5, the two characters barely speak, rarely make eye contact, and hardly interact in any meaingful way. Think back to  "Cause and XS"; Iris saw Cicada's dagger moving to kill Killer Frost and Iris didn't even look back or yell  to warn her. Like not even to save her life would Iris make eye contact with her.🤣

If a novice watched the show in S5, they'd assume these two were enemies or very new aquaintances, not two people working on a team for 4+ years. With AJK gone, CP probably asked Todd to minimize their interaction; the S5 distancing is the result.

Edited May 12, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

This isn't about writers not being into a Caitlin/Iris friendship.

It would be great if Iris and Caitlin were more friendly, but we might have to disagree about the reasons why they are not. Whatever issue the actresses might have, they don't have as much power over which relationships get focus/scenes/etc. as the writers and showrunners. If the showrunners really doing favors for the actresses, they would have better storylines. The show has never been that into at female relationships in general, and clearly not into Iris/Caitlin as noted by your examples.
 

11 hours ago, adora721 said:

In S5, the two characters barely speak, rarely make eye contact, and hardly interact in any meaingful way.

Same with Barry and Ralph, but somehow no one thinks there's a problem between Grant and Hartley.

Iris and Caitlin hugged in 4.05.

[adora721]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Same with Barry and Ralph, but somehow no one thinks there's a problem between Grant and Hartley.

Iris and Caitlin hugged in 4.05.

S4 was all about Barry and Ralph's relationship; so it doesn't count for S5 that's there's litte interaction. We even know they had a relationship back in Barry's rookie days. Barry and Ralph had more friendship issues, good and bad,  addressed in one season than Cait and Iris had in 5 seasons.  And again, it's all one-sided on Iris' part doing the actual work of friendship.

Thanks for the reminder about the hug in 4.05.

[Starry]

On 5/12/2019 at 7:27 PM, adora721 said:

The writers  and producers have shown normal friendships or friendly interactions among team Flash members in all seasons, which indicates that showing those friendships is a priority for them. Those strong bonds are what makes team Flash, "a family". This has been a priority since S1.

Tell that to the SB fans who complain all the time about Barry not having scenes with Caitlin. In all seriousness, there have been normal scenes between Iris and Caitlin if we are considering the series as a whole.

On 5/12/2019 at 7:27 PM, adora721 said:

This isn't about writers not being into a Caitlin/Iris friendship. I firmly believe the writers would have written a normal, healthy friendship with an onscreen apology from Cait to Iris (like Cait gave to Joe) if not for some BTS shenanigans (strong dislike) between these two actresses. I suspect, too, that because AJK was in charge through S4.5, he wouldn't allow Cait to apologize to Iris as a favor to DP. These are the only things, IMO, that explain why these two characters have not been consistently friendly on screen since S2. AJK made sure the writing was one-sided; he made sure Iris, Caitlin's victim, did all the initiating, did all the coddling,  and made all the effort to embrace the woman who tried to help murder her without Caitlin ever having to utter one syllable of an apology or be redeemed.

The writers never gave me any indication that they were into any female friendship. I think sexism explains why they never cared for a Iris/Caitlin friendship more than any BTS issues between the actresses ever could. These are the same writers that constantly prioritize father/son bonds over father/daughter bonds and daughter/father bonds over daughter/mother bonds. Racism could also explain why in the few friendship scenes they've had, Caitlin is usually on the receiving end of the friendship act. I doubt this has much to do with AJK since the writing was one-sided in the second half of season 4 as well. AJK had no control over the script when they had

• Caitlin yell at Iris in 4x21 and never apologize for it.
• Iris discuss Killer Frost with Caitlin.
• Iris reassure Caitlin that they were going to bring back KF only for Cait to coldly and rudely dismiss her.

Caitlin not being held accountable is also something that goes beyond her relationship, or lack thereof with Iris.

On 5/12/2019 at 7:27 PM, adora721 said:

With AJK gone, CP probably asked Todd to minimize their interaction; the S5 distancing is the result.

I doubt Candice is losing any sleep over Snowest but I don't believe she asked Todd to minimize their scenes. Maybe the lack of chemistry between the actresses didn't inspire the writers to give them more but I remain of the opinion that BTS drama isn't the primary cause for the lack of a Iris/Caitlin friendship. As I said above, they have a horrible track record with positive female relationships in general.

I find this whole argument interesting because while you and others are theorizing over Snowest, I am freaking out about the writers possibly adding insult to injury and forcing a surprise pregnancy on Iris after they had sidelined WestAllen for the entire season 🙄 This season has been such a disappointment, I don't want to rant about that too.

[adora721]

I'll answer in the Lightning Rod... thread

[Katsullivan]

On 5/14/2019 at 7:10 AM, Starry said:

I doubt Candice is losing any sleep over Snowest but I don't believe she asked Todd to minimize their scenes.

DP is definitely the instigator of this. She has enough clout bts to ask for a moratorium on Snowest. Not that Candice will complain.

I can't believe that we're stuck with DP and Snowbarry nonsense for another season.

[BeautifulFlower]

The fact Nora and supposedly her timeline got erased without any resolution to her and future Iris. We never got future Iris POV on anything. The last time she ever saw Nora was Nora mad at her 

[Katsullivan]

32 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

The fact Nora and supposedly her timeline got erased without any resolution to her and future Iris. We never got future Iris POV on anything. The last time she ever saw Nora was Nora mad at her 

I'm sorry but did you really think the producers of this show gave a f**k about Iris and Nora's relationship besides an opportunity to provide hate bait to Iris haters?

[adora721]

When Ralph's love interest shows up, we'll see if the writers make her close friends with Cait or Iris or both. That should be an indicator of the priorities for the show when it comes to female friendships. If Ralph's boo is squarely hanging with mostly Caity Frost and the actress isn't a POC, that'll tell us a lot.

Edited May 16, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

I don't see them doing much with Caitlin and Sue. Caitlin hasn't had enough friendly interactions with any female character. The same can be said for Iris but I feel like it's even worse with Caitlin. The closest she came to having a female friend was Felicity in the earlier seasons. 

15 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I can't believe that we're stuck with DP and Snowbarry nonsense for another season.

Sadly, I can. I never really believed this would be her last season.

I don't have the energy to comment on Iris/Nora. I was naive enough to hope they were going somewhere with their relationship after they got over the drama with the chip but I was proven wrong. The finale had its emotional, beautifully acted moments but it's too little, too late. I will never forget how they botched the West-Allen family dynamic. Iris was made to feel like she would never be enough for Nora. Barry was all talk. He never really acted like Nora made him a better person, taught him how to love someone this fully or whatever it was they made him say to prop up that relationship. I fully believed him when he admitted that he was weirded out by being suddenly pushed into the dad role. Barry and Iris haven't been this distant since season 2 which makes no sense because we are talking about their legacy here.

At least they didn't make Iris pregnant from immaculate conception. Thankful for small blessings.

There were a couple good episodes but there were also instances where I came close to disliking not only Nora, but also Barry and Iris. I don't want to feel this way about my favorite couple and their daughter.

[SimoneS]

Now that Ralph has grown on me, I am looking forward to his romance with Sue. However, I can't imagine that it will be more than a handful of episodes unless they add the character to the cast as a regular. If Helbing was still the showrunner, I would scoff at any discussion about Sue having a friendship with Iris and/or Caitlin, but maybe Wallace surprises us.

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Now that Ralph has grown on me, I am looking forward to his romance with Sue. However, I can't imagine that it will be more than a handful of episodes unless they add the character to the cast as a regular. If Helbing was still the showrunner, I would scoff at any discussion about Sue having a friendship with Iris and/or Caitlin, but maybe Wallace surprises us.

I don't want to get too attached to Sue, if she does make an appearance next season.

Because I know she'll be murdered by that Whackjob, whose name I can't remember, but Blue Beetle's ex-wife? Or this show may just change it up, like they've done with everyone else's relationships on this show.

[Velocity23]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't want to get too attached to Sue, if she does make an appearance next season.

  Hide contents

Because I know she'll be murdered by that Whackjob, whose name I can't remember, but Blue Beetle's ex-wife? Or this show may just change it up, like they've done with everyone else's relationships on this show.

If you mean Jean Loring ... she was the lawyer of Moira Queen and her friend and she is the same age as Moira Queen was. She is played by Teryl Rothery from SG1 fame. So not sure they are doing that SL. Especially knowing they changed LI for Ray Palmer from her to his fiance Anna.

https://arrow.fandom.com/wiki/Jean_Loring

[SimoneS]

I can't imagine The Flash giving Sue the ending of her story in comics. It seems too dark for this show.  

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't imagine The Flash giving Sue the ending of her story in comics. It seems too dark for this show.  

Replying to this in the Lightning Rod thread. It reminded me of something

[Trini]

So they really began and ended the season with Nora.

I thought this was a good scene, and the actors were great; but I think this could have been a more impactful epilogue to the West-Allen's story if the lead up throughout the season had been better.

We've got three talented, versatile actors* here, who do great when given good (or even so-so) scripts and meaty material, but the writing for Nora was iffy half the time, and there wasn't enough of the family adjusting to each other and bonding. The first part of the season wasn't so bad at that, but then things dropped off.

*(Again, shoutout for managing to cast someone who looks like a mix of Gustin and Patton's DNA.)

Considering that it was (probably) always the plan to have Barry & Iris tragically lose Nora at the end of the season, they should have had more throughout of them discussing children, parenting, and their future together. More of them as a couple, not just parents.

There was only so much they could do with Joe because Jesse L. Martin was absent, but I think they could have done more with Cecile as part of the West family. Not to mention poor, neglected Jenna.

I knew that Nora would be a big part of the season, but I don't think anyone expected how much Barry would be a relatively passive player in the season's story, and that the story he had would all revolve around Nora. Barry learning to mentor, love, and trust Nora was mostly good. However, the show ignored Barry's disappearance in the future; consistently alluding to it, but not dealing with it.

Despite everything (missteps, tone deafness, not enough of screentime), I think Iris made out the best out of all the West-Allens in Season 5. She survived a crash course on motherhood, repaired a strained relationship with Nora, grew her business, and had stories outside of STAR Labs/Barry. We got more of her feelings and point of view. I liked that they made an effort to have Iris be more a part of the action this season.

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Despite everything (missteps, tone deafness, not enough of screentime), I think Iris made out the best out of all the West-Allens in Season 5. She survived a crash course on motherhood, repaired a strained relationship with Nora, grew her business, and had stories outside of STAR Labs/Barry. We got more of her feelings and point of view. I liked that they made an effort to have Iris be more a part of the action this season.

I agree about Iris. Her character came out of this season of Nora more clearly defined and stronger overall which is surprising since this season was all about Nora as Barry's legacy. I have always given Helbing kudos for giving Iris a more prominent role the last two seasons (notably this coincided with Kreisberg's departure). The writing and storytelling hasn't always been good, but Iris has become a central character during his tenure. I hope that Eric Wallace continues this trend.

I have been thinking about why Nora as Barry's legacy didn't really work. I think it was because they gave Nora too prominent a role and how they wrote Barry being uncomfortable with her hero worship, something that was never resolved. I never felt like Barry and Nora ever came to an understanding about their relationship as a father and an adult daughter. Which is why Nora's proclamations that she was adult in the final too episodes were so eye rolling. I also think that it would have helped if they had given Barry more intimate scenes with Iris discussing his fears about disappearing, losing her, never having getting the opportunity to raise their daughter, and his legacy as the Flash. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

In other relationships,

Pet peeve: Still annoyed that Joe and Cecile aren't married. Clearly it doesn't change anything narratively for the show; but I think it's out of character for Joe. But I already know that they don't care that much about Joe/Cecile. They're steady, which is good; however, even having an entire new child didn't really change anything about the relationship - in a season with a theme of legacy.

Ralph got to be everyone's friend this season; although he barely spent time with Barry. I guess they thought there was enough of that last year.

Caitlin learned to live and work together with Killer Frost, and reconciled with her mother; but lost her father, again. So some growth there.

Well, I admit they had me fooled with those KillerVibe crumbs earlier in the season. sigh

Cisco still doesn't have any family outside of Team Flash. ::SIGH:: On one hand, I'm glad they gave Cisco a love interest not connected to Team Flash stuff, but then this relationship with Kamilla didn't really get much screentime. And it seemed like it was set up to be reason for Cisco to remove his powers, but she was fine with it, so I'm not sure what the point was. I'm not convinced that the writers are serious about Cisco/Kamilla as a serious, long-term relationship.

Nora and her parents were always going to be the most important relationships for her; but I wish they had also cultivated her relationships with other members of Team Flash too. I mean, outside of Barry & Iris, her most important connections were with the villains of the season.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Trini
aded dropped word

[Trini]

On 5/19/2019 at 7:09 AM, SimoneS said:

I have been thinking about why Nora as Barry's legacy didn't really work. I think it was because they gave Nora too prominent a role and how they wrote Barry being uncomfortable with her hero worship, something that was never resolved. I never felt like Barry and Nora ever came to an understanding about their relationship as a father and an adult daughter. ...

Agreed. It also didn't help that in this latter part of the season Barry and Nora had angst and conflict between them.

Quote

...  I also think that it would have helped if they had given Barry more intimate scenes with Iris discussing his fears about disappearing, losing her, never having getting the opportunity to raise their daughter, and his legacy as the Flash. 

I don't know why they (apparently) decided to save all this for next season. The lightly touched on it a few times this season, but this was the perfect time to start the start the discussion.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Trini

[BeautifulFlower]

If Joe and Cecile do decide to tie the knot, I don't want them to have a wedding. I just want some time jump and they mention getting married offscreen. Why? I wouldn't like a secondary couple getting a wedding. Not after the main couple not only got married on another show but also directly after a funeral. Then, they had to share it with another couple who had no plans to get married before. 

Is this bad? Am I being petty?

[Trini]

I get your reasoning, but I don't agree.

It would nice if Joe and Cecile had a wedding on-screen; but I'm not expecting one -because the writers clearly only care so much about that relationship- so I won't be upset if we don't see it.

I'd love a wedding do-over for Barry and Iris, but I think TPTB consider it done and over with (even if it was a on another show), so a do-over isn't something they even think needs to be done - which is a shame.

[SimoneS]

I will never stop resenting that Barry and Iris got married on another show. I had to watch their half-ass wedding on YouTube. They are the lead couple on the number one CW show, yet they had to share their wedding with another couple. Hell, even their kiss was blocked by Oliver and Felicity. Iris will probably give birth on another show. Anything to raise those ratings and increase the ad revenue. RME.

I don't much care whether Joe and Cecile get married or not. Their relationship just there to me. 

[Featherhat]

I think it's possible iris might give birth during a crossover (maybe the one after Crisis) or find out she's pregnant but it will because it's part of the climax, not to up viewing for a specific show. They don't care enough about a small bump in viewers on say LOT to do it for that reason. Look on the bright side, at least she and Felicity aren't going to have a double birth scene. 😉 and she's likely to have twins.

I would actually like  an anniversary/bowel renewal scene of their own for WA, but the fact that they didn't do anything on The Flash before now (reception, show a "busman's honeymoon") is on this show 's writers.

As for Joe and Cecile I do think it's somewhat out of character for traditional Joe not to want to get married to the mother of his child or at least mention it and have them decide not to but I don't think they care enough about the storyline to bother. If they did have something WA could decide they'd like a do over.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Featherhat

[BeautifulFlower]

I love WestAllen with all my heart, but I won't forget how S1 Barry acted towards Iris.

1. He had no respect for Iris relationship with Eddie. This was proven to me when he dumped Linda in the new timeline. Barry literally thought Iris would breakup with Eddie and get with him.

2. He infantized and gaslighted Iris. I still hate him not letting Iris in on the secret. Sure, Barry wanted Iris to be the first to know about his powers. However, Barry still followed Joe's order. Last time I check, Barry is a grown man. He did not have to listen to Joe.

3. The way he temporarily ended their friendship

[Katsullivan]

On 6/29/2019 at 11:28 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

I love WestAllen with all my heart, but I won't forget how S1 Barry acted towards Iris.

1. He had no respect for Iris relationship with Eddie. This was proven to me when he dumped Linda in the new timeline. Barry literally thought Iris would breakup with Eddie and get with him.

2. He infantized and gaslighted Iris. I still hate him not letting Iris in on the secret. Sure, Barry wanted Iris to be the first to know about his powers. However, Barry still followed Joe's order. Last time I check, Barry is a grown man. He did not have to listen to Joe.

3. The way he temporarily ended their friendship

Well said. It's never addressed and it's so disgusting yet typical of the show to let the white MC get away with murder while the black woman gets ripped to shreds for looking at him wrong. (Or in Iris's case, "looking" at him at all.)

[BeautifulFlower]

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Well said. It's never addressed and it's so disgusting yet typical of the show to let the white MC get away with murder while the black woman gets ripped to shreds for looking at him wrong. (Or in Iris's case, "looking" at him at all.)

I really want to know where it was depicted that Iris was "leading" Barry on. That's mainly what you hear from the antis. 

All throughout season 1, Iris was with Eddie. During the back half, Iris was with Eddie and a little conflicted on what her actual feeling for Barry are. Where did she lead him on? I don't remember Iris promising Barry that they might have a chance during the back half of season 1. Not once did she say that.

[Featherhat]

Iris did the opposite of leading Barry on really. She was firm that she was with Eddie and said "screw destiny" to be with him before he sacrificed himself. Sure she was a bit conflicted but that was nothing compared to Barry meeting and flirting with her as The Flash and then yeah, gaslighting her over the blog etc. I know they put Joe in there purposely but still, how he handled everything is on him.

It just seems par for the course on a lot of shows with the (usually white) guy pining over a girl for years without actually telling her but deserving to get her just because. Like she's a prize, and she's a bitch if she doesn't immediately get that. I often find the trope skeezy even if/when that couple do get together. WA are really cute and have got passed it but S1 Barry definitely was a giant ass to her at times and had some growing up to do. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Featherhat