Xander January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 If they can have an amazing platonic relationship, why can't they have an amazing romance? 4 Link to comment
bluebonnet January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 (edited) Hmm, so my perfectly good and logical reasons don't count because....it's just my opinion? Yet your opinion totally counts because...you say so? Alrighty then. I'll refrain from detailing how illogical that argument is. Moving on. Look, if you don't have a problem with the show altering canon to make Iris and Barry siblings (not going to quibble with anyone here, they are foster siblings no matter how you try to argue it), then there shouldn't be a problem with Iris and Barry being really good friends and superhero partners. You can't have it both ways. Either you hate changing canon in any way, or you are ok with canon being changed if it makes for a good and coherent story. The story of Iris and Barry being siblings is a good one. The story of them being best friends is amazing. The budding story of Iris being the superhero blogger has some promise to it. This story of the unrequited love Barry has for his sister is a dark spot, especially when it's set up in such a way that makes the object of unrequited love be presented as someone who just needs to learn to love the unrequited lover. It's gross. I don't care that the father of the girl is all for it, especially considering this is the same father who campaigns to keep her ignorant. What's worse is that when Iris "finally learns" (ugh, gross), it's going to make a good character look like shit because they are setting it up in a way that Iris will suddenly fall for Barry just because he's a superhero. That makes her look shallow. I don't want that for Iris. I think they've created a good story and I would like it if Barry no longer makes his childhood love of Iris an issue so that the workable relationship the writers have written - the one where they are best friends, siblings, and partners in the superhero business - can continue to flourish. Perhaps in the future they will write in a good reason for Iris and Barry to form a romantic attachment, and not just one where Iris falls for Barry because he's a superhero, not one where she's 'learned' to love the guy everyone wants her to be with. Nothing stops the writers from working their way back to canon just because they choose to ignore canon right now. If they can have an amazing platonic relationship, why can't they have an amazing romance? Why do they need to? I mean, the obvious answer is because Iris isn't romantically interested in Barry. But seriously, why do they need to? Amazing platonic relationships do not somehow automatically translate to amazing romantic relationships. T Edited January 22, 2015 by bluebonnet 2 Link to comment
Xander January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 (edited) Why do they need to? I mean, the obvious answer is because Iris isn't romantically interested in Barry. But seriously, why do they need to? Amazing platonic relationships do not somehow automatically translate to amazing romantic relationships. T Unless you want Barry to never get into a romantic relationship, he will be with someone who wasn't romantically interested in him at some point. Of course amazing platonic relationships don't always translate to amazing romantic relationships but they don't even have an amazing platonic relationship given that Barry has always been interested in her romantically. And to make matters worse, he's currently hiding a big part of himself from her. This is an amazing friendship? Edited January 22, 2015 by Xander 3 Link to comment
lilithred January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 (edited) Hmm, so my perfectly good and logical reasons don't count because....it's just my opinion? Yet your opinion totally counts because...you say so? Alrighty then. I'll refrain from detailing how illogical that argument is. Moving on. Maybe you're confused about what "logical" means in this case. Let me clarify: what is stopping Barry and Iris from having a perfectly healthy, and working relationship that ends of up being good for the both of them? Because I've never heard a reason beyond them having lived in the same house for a period of time. If THEY don't consider that a good enough reason to stop them, why should any one in the audience? I think a romance between Barry and Felicity would be boring because they are too similar, but that's a not a logical reason why the two characters shouldn't be together. It's why I don't like them. Take Laurel and Oliver for example. They have too much of a soiled history together, and have been shown to bring out the worst in each other. They can't make a healthy relationship work. That's a logical reason they shouldn't be together that has nothing to do with how I feel about them as a couple or their dynamic. Either you hate changing canon in any way, or you are ok with canon being changed if it makes for a good and coherent story. It's not about canon. I don't know how many times that needs to be said. Whether this show was an original story or not, I still wouldn't think that Barry needed a different love interest. I don't care about the comics. I'm looking at the show. Why shouldn't Barry be with someone who constantly reassures him that he's an amazing person and deserves to be loved? Someone who goes with him to dorky movies and science events that she has no interest in just to be a good friend to him? Someone who went through all the trouble of finding the Flash just to save his faith? Why shouldn't Iris be with someone who loves her the way that Barry does? All of that shouldn't matter because they're "foster siblings", which neither of them consider themselves to be? This show has done a nice job of setting up Iris as the love of his life. He had a chance with someone who was literally the perfect girl for him in the form of Felicity, and was still not interested because for him, it's Iris, or it's no one. This was laid on so thick, even in just the first few episodes, that him being with anyone else wouldn't sit well with me. So forget the comics. I'd feel this way with or without them. This story of the unrequited love Barry has for his sister is a dark spot, especially when it's set up in such a way that makes the object of unrequited love be presented as someone who just needs to learn to love the unrequited lover. It's gross. I've never liked stories like that either, but what makes this one different for me is that Iris already loves Barry. She loves and supports him so much. She's not some girl who doesn't know he's alive or couldn't care less about him and just needs to "wake up". She's a girl who loves her best friend but has never considered if she loved him in that way. Amazing platonic relationships do not somehow automatically translate to amazing romantic relationships. If one party has spent the majority of the friendship in love with the other, it was never really platonic. Caitlin and Barry are platonic. Cisco and Caitlin are platonic. I wouldn't consider Barry and Iris as such. Just like Caitlin said, their friendship was never "normal" because Barry was always in love with Iris. Even if in your eyes, "platonic" means they've never touched body parts, I wouldn't consider it an "amazing" platonic friendship when one person was hiding so much from the other. Edited January 22, 2015 by shar 4 Link to comment
Shanna January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 (edited) The logical reason they don't work for me is because they are siblings (which is a canon change, yes?). I think they have great on screen chemistry....as siblings and as friends. I don't need the show to force some unrequited love plot and perhaps a future marriage plot just because Barry Allen and Iris West exist as a romantic pairing in the comics. Barry and Iris on the show work amazingly well as foster siblings, they are wonderful as friends, they have potential to be awesome partners in the superhero business. I don't actually need Barry to be paired with anyone, but I definitely don't need to be bludgeoned over the head with Iris and Barry love story at the expense of an amazing platonic relationship between the two.This where I am too. I don't know where you look for these things, but sentiment in iris and Barry together seems to be mixed. And of course as I mentioned we haven't seen them romantically involved at all yet. We have seen them as friends and pseudo siblings. That works. I know I was not enjoying the Barry moaping over iris stuff at all, especially with her unaware, so at least that is over. But iris and Eddie seen to have a mature adult relationship. I like that. That works for me, and as I don't see any romantic chemistry yet between iris and Barry I wish they would just leave it alone for a while. But sadly we all know where this is going because canon! I swear series based on books don't seem to be nearly as concerned with canon as comic books, even though my understanding of comic book canon is that there are multiple versions of everything so I'm not sure why it would be so important. Anyway, We will see what happens when they actually go for this relationship onscreen. I do wish they would give us more of what is going on in Iris's head because as it is I have no idea what she thought of Barry's declaration. Btw, the number one thing stopping them from having a relationship right now is that iris is completely uninterested! So yeah, that's a problem. Number two is the lying Barry has been doing. (I forgot to add number three that iris is already in a commutes relationship) Big hurdles I'm sure they'll just handwave and jump over but I don't have to like it it doesn't work. My main problem has been that iris seemed uninterested and Barry seemed pathetic. That's not my favorite way to began a relationship! Edited January 22, 2015 by Shanna 3 Link to comment
phoenics January 22, 2015 Share January 22, 2015 I'm trying to understand the viewpoint some have that Iris/Barry are too much like siblings to ever be romantic, but I just don't see it. Iris and Barry are not siblings. She is not his sister. Joe did not adopt Barry. He merely took him in. They do have a relationship like a father and son, but they are not father and son. Iris and Barry may (to some) have a relationship like sister and brother, but they are not brother and sister and the two of them consider themselves best friends. And Barry has been in love with Iris since BEFORE he moved in with them - I love how the show lightly batted down the "sibling" complaint some have - Barry crushed on her before he moved in with them and has loved her since before he even knew what love was. That's enough for me. I think calling Iris Barry's sister makes about as much sense as calling Caitlin Barry's mother because she constantly mothers him. If we're judging this based on "behavior" then I think there is more than enough of that from Caitlin to Barry to just call her his mother and leave it at that. But I guess I see Caitlin and Barry the way another poster upthread said they saw Barry/Iris - as platonic. I too don't understand the shipping of a couple that isn't a "couple" yet... and in this case, neither Caitlin nor Barry have expressed anything beyond friendship. But Barry has been very clear that Iris is the love of his life. As for comic canon couples - well - that comes with the territory of the genre. When you watch a comic story being adapted onscreen, it comes with certain things. Sure, they can change things - but if they were going to do that, then they wouldn't have bothered to cast Iris at all and just done it like the Flash series from years ago. And Westallen is actually pretty popular - someone upthread listed a few statistics about it that elevated it even above Captain Swan in a recent poll. And I know it's "popular" now to cite Olicity as a show breaking from "canon" but I don't think that's a good example. Green Arrow and BC are not comic royalty. In fact, their relationship (as the Oliciters often reminded Lauriver fans) was rocky and kind of a hot mess in the comics, so it was rather easy to step away from that when the two actors lacked heat in the tv show. So Arrow/BC aren't canon in the same way that Iris and Barry are, or Lois and Superman. Those are comic royalty couples. And the CW had another show (Smallville) that had clamoring to make Chloe the "love" for Supes, but it didn't happen. They stuck with canon, which was Lana in Clark's early years and then Lois as the love of his life once he grew up. And given that Geoff Johns (who basically created much of the modern day flash work) is a producer and writer for the show and says it will be the most faithful adaptation - well, that says a lot. He was the reason Iris was cast as a black woman - because he made Wally/Bart black in HIS Flash comic. 3 Link to comment
quarks January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 And given that Geoff Johns (who basically created much of the modern day flash work) is a producer and writer for the show and says it will be the most faithful adaptation - well, that says a lot. Geoff Johns is also the writer who had Superman and Wonder Woman hook up, thereby at least temporarily cancelling DC's all time most iconic couple. Sure, they can change things - but if they were going to do that, then they wouldn't have bothered to cast Iris at all and just done it like the Flash series from years ago. As this thread and another thread have noted, that show did cast Iris, introducing her as the love of that Barry's life; he even proposed to her post his accident. Then she vanished from the show. Granted, the show vanished after one season as well. Link to comment
phoenics January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 Geoff Johns is also the writer who had Superman and Wonder Woman hook up, thereby at least temporarily cancelling DC's all time most iconic couple. Only in the new 52 - which this Flash universe (currently) is not in. So... and nothing says that Lois and Supes won't eventually get together - the whole WW/Supes pairing isn't exactly catching on from what I've seen. It's like stunt casting - I expect it to wear off fairly soon. Especially given how WW is treated in that pairing... she's almost invisible... WW is my fave comic super heroine, so I'm sensitive about the new 52 actually. As this thread and another thread have noted, that show did cast Iris, introducing her as the love of that Barry's life; he even proposed to her post his accident. Then she vanished from the show. Granted, the show vanished after one season as well. True - that show kinda mashed up multiple versions of the Flash... I'm not sure it's a good example to draw from... but I do see your point. 1 Link to comment
quarks January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 the whole WW/Supes pairing isn't exactly catching on from what I've seen. It's like stunt casting - I expect it to wear off fairly soon. I'm not fond of the pairing either, but it's been going for about two, three years now, I think, and they gave the two their own book. Reviews of that seem to be pretty mixed, but that's true for most of the new 52. Link to comment
phoenics January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 I'm not fond of the pairing either, but it's been going for about two, three years now, I think, and they gave the two their own book. Reviews of that seem to be pretty mixed, but that's true for most of the new 52. Totally agree with you there... I'm not a fan of the new 52 honestly. Link to comment
Oscirus January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 Though love life and sex life don't really need to be one and the same. I doubt he's seriously dated anyone before, but his interest in Felicity tells us that he is attracted to other people. There could have easily been random hook ups here and there. From everything they've shown us, Barry's been too busy pining after Iris to even think about having sex. Hell, Iris had to tell him about the signals that Felicity was putting out and those should've been obvious. Plus, I doubt he's the playboy/casual sex type. He could've done something in college but I doubt it. As for the canon/ non-canon argument, in my opinion it fits the same rules as adapting any other written works to screen. If you don't want the canon argument to come up then don't put Iris in the show. You could've had Candice playing somebody by a different name and it would've been the same story. That being said, I'm quite glad that Caitlin's getting the first crack at Barry. I want Barry far away from Iris since the only thing he tends to do is sexualize her to the point that she's a walking vagina in the story. It's no surprise that "The Flash is Born," was easily Iris's best episode since those two barely talked in it. Maybe I'll feel different once Barry matures and once the writers bother developing her, but for now, keep them apart. Link to comment
Enero January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 (edited) From everything they've shown us, Barry's been too busy pining after Iris to even think about having sex. Hell, Iris had to tell him about the signals that Felicity was putting out and those should've been obvious. Plus, I doubt he's the playboy/casual sex type. He could've done something in college but I doubt it. Iris thought Barry needed her help to see the signals and be clued in to when a girl liked him, but what she didn't know was that he was already clued in. Barry wasn't showing interest in Felicity when she visited him in CC because they'd already danced that dance when he visited SC the previous year. They even sort of had a date, but things changed when he saw that she had feelings for Oliver (I'm sure his feelings for Iris came into play too). With regards to his sex life, anyone who complains about his drinking days being over at 25 and that he can't get drunk anymore makes me think he's not as innocent as some might like to think. I'm betting he's had sex. I don't think he's Oliver Queen, but I think he's had a hook up or two. That being said, I'm quite glad that Caitlin's getting the first crack at Barry. She is? Though it could most certainly happen, I have not seen any evidence that the show is going in this direction. It was interesting that in this week's episode, the writers had a perfect opportunity to explore Barry/Caitlyn being a possibility with her being kidnapped by Barry/Flash's ongoing nemesis Captain Cold. However, instead of having her rescued by Barry/Flash, which is a trope TV shows (especially the CW) cannot resist when it comes to a potential pairing, she was rescued by Joe and Cisco. Then on top of that, there was no follow up to her kidnapping. We never saw Barry checking in with her to make sure she was okay, which is also another TV trope for potential pairings. Barry/Caitlyn have had some really nice scenes, but at this point all I see is genuine friendship, which is actually quite refreshing. As I've stated before, just because two attractive people of the opposite sex share a bonding moment or two doesn't mean there needs to be a romance. Sometimes a friendship is just a friendship. I want Barry far away from Iris since the only thing he tends to do is sexualize her to the point that she's a walking vagina in the story. I respectful disagree. In what episode did Barry express his POV of Iris being a walking vagina? It is obvious that he cares very much for her, being as she was the first person he ran to see when he woke up and continues to try and protect her (unreasonably) from his Flash identity. He has stated over and over that she's his best friend, which has been evidenced by her support of him and his ease in talking with her about all his nerdy interests. We've seen him pine for her and express frustration at her relationship with Eddie, but he has always been respectful towards her and has never IMHO expressed a POV that indicates she's a sexual object that he wants to conquer. Edited January 23, 2015 by Enero 6 Link to comment
FurryFury January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 (edited) I respectful disagree. In what episode did Barry express his POV of Iris being a walking vagina? I think the poster meant that the show treats her as a love interest for Barry, not as a character in her own right. And it's true. Even Laurel in s1 of Arrow had a friend, a romance with an actual character (Eddie, while cute and nice to look at, is basically a walking cliche - your classic romantic false lead, I have no idea what the show will do with him after the inevitable break-up, because his relationships with Joe and Barry are very weak so far), a job and her own motivations. Of course, Iris is still much better, mostly thanks to her actress, who is very charismatic and, frankly, deserves more opportunities from the writing. Personally, I'd prefer it if the show put the breaks on Barry/Iris for at least a season and gave Iris her own storyline and development, because thus far, the romance hasn't been "earned" on her side, at all. All she's done was be interested in Eddie and be awkward with Barry. Edited January 23, 2015 by FurryFury 2 Link to comment
Trini January 23, 2015 Author Share January 23, 2015 The CW Youtube channel put up a video with Grant talking about the awkwardness between Barry and Iris in the last episode, and it emphasizes how everything is from Barry's point of view. Do the writers not see how one-sided this 'relationship' is? What does Iris think?? This is another reason why I'm not in a hurry to see them together soon -- like FurryFury said, they have issues to fix on Iris' side. 1 Link to comment
phoenics January 23, 2015 Share January 23, 2015 I think writers sometimes only know how to tell a story like that from the pov of the "pining" character - which is why I think we'll get some of that from Iris when she ends up being the one pining for Barry after the whole Linda Park thing. 1 Link to comment
lilithred January 24, 2015 Share January 24, 2015 We're only half way in so they still have a chance to fix this one sided thing. I'm under the impression that they're purposely holding out on giving Iris a POV. I think they're waiting for the green eyed epiphany trope to come about in the form of Linda Park before they explore her side of things. Cliche to the max, but what are you gonna do? 3 Link to comment
Oscirus January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 She is? Though it could most certainly happen, I have not seen any evidence that the show is going in this direction. There have been breadcrumbs all over the place this season. The whole "nobody's made her that mad since her fiancée," the almost kiss, her repeatedly trying to get Barry to stop butting into Candice's love life, this episode having her give Barry love advice. If we only had one incident I might be able to write it off as they're being friends with possibly mixed up signals, if this was normal life, it might be nothing. But from a writer's point of view, they're building a narrative towards Snow-Allen, especially, once she reveals her feelings for Barry. In what episode did Barry express his POV of Iris being a walking vagina? In what episode hasn't he? Even in the mid season finale, he couldn't come up with a better reason then "I've loved you since we were kids." Not you're kind, no you're smart, nothing but I've loved you for a long time cuz you've been pretty for a long time. Also on the friendship tip, they really need to sell the friendship better. I get it from her but from him, I just get girl he has a crush on. He never talks to her about any of his problems. She's initiating contact ninety percent of the time and almost everything they do together is things that he likes to do. But yea, I do agree that they have to fix Iris while this show is in the "honeymoon" phase. The writers can only isolate her from the rest of the crew ( she's not even allowed to have a decent relationship with her father and that should be easy) for so long before the audience starts to turn on her. Luckily She starts her job at the paper this week so she should at the very least have an outlet 1 Link to comment
driedfruit January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) There have been breadcrumbs all over the place this season. The whole "nobody's made her that mad since her fiancée," the almost kiss, her repeatedly trying to get Barry to stop butting into Candice's love life, this episode having her give Barry love advice. If we only had one incident I might be able to write it off as they're being friends with possibly mixed up signals, if this was normal life, it might be nothing. But from a writer's point of view, they're building a narrative towards Snow-Allen, especially, once she reveals her feelings for Barry. What feelings? Caitlin has never shown the slightest bit of attraction towards Barry. Her disapproval of his romantic manipulation of Iris was never shown as her being jealous, but as another instance of her being the gang's mother hen. It's super easy to fanwank romantic intent anytime attractive people share a tender moment onscreen (and sure actors are chemistry tested all the time) but that's not proof of the direction of narrative. If we were headed for Snow-Allen, we'd be getting much bigger moments. For example, I'd have at least expected a Barry rescue scene with obvious signs of sexual tension. But instead, Cisco came to her rescue and in a scene so shippy a good chunk of the fandom is suddenly very intrigued by the potential of Caitlin/Cisco. There are at least as many breadcrumb/vague shippy moments between Caitlin/Cisco as there are between Caitlin/Barry, and I don't think either indicates an intended direction. In what episode hasn't he? Even in the mid season finale, he couldn't come up with a better reason then "I've loved you since we were kids." Not you're kind, no you're smart, nothing but I've loved you for a long time cuz you've been pretty for a long time. Also on the friendship tip, they really need to sell the friendship better. I get it from her but from him, I just get girl he has a crush on. He never talks to her about any of his problems. She's initiating contact ninety percent of the time and almost everything they do together is things that he likes to do. Barry is obviously going through a difficult patch due to his extraordinary circumstance, and we know his being distant isn't normal for their friendship, because Iris never fails to mention it. It bothers me that he hasn't been honest with her, but nothing that has been shown makes me question how much he values the part she plays in his life. It took him what, ten minutes to be out of his coma before he dashed off to see her. As to why he loves her... I don't need Barry to list what's apparent to see. The fact that Iris is warm and accepting, supportive, fun to be around and clearly his dearest friend and the love of his life has been shown every episode this show has aired. Edited January 25, 2015 by driedfruit 7 Link to comment
phoenics January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) There have been breadcrumbs all over the place this season. The whole "nobody's made her that mad since her fiancée," the almost kiss, her repeatedly trying to get Barry to stop butting into Candice's love life, this episode having her give Barry love advice. If we only had one incident I might be able to write it off as they're being friends with possibly mixed up signals, if this was normal life, it might be nothing. But from a writer's point of view, they're building a narrative towards Snow-Allen, especially, once she reveals her feelings for Barry. I disagree with this utterly and entirely. I think a lot of what you're seeing as crumbs, I'm seeing as the writers trying to illustrate how Caitlin is projecting her feelings for Ronnie and it's making her overly motherly to Barry. As in overbearing. Caitlin is literally like a mother hen to Barry - nothing romantic about that. And the "almost kiss" wasn't an almost kiss at all in my opinion - as in, there is no way Barry was thinking that... and as for Caitlin, it looked more like she was going to say something else - not go in for a kiss. And Barry definitely wasn't thinking that way. Not from what I saw. What you see as breadcrumbs, I cannot even see as crumbs. It's just non-existant. Even the upcoming Linda Park story is so she's a foil for WestAllen - still the central relationship here - SnowBarry (I think that's what their fans call it) isn't even being set up as a foil for WestAllen - they instead brought in a whole other character to push it. It's kinda like what's happening now on Arrow - Olicity has the foil in the form of Raylicity... making Olicity the central coupling. Same thing with WestAllen. SnowBarry isn't even on the radar. In what episode hasn't he? Even in the mid season finale, he couldn't come up with a better reason then "I've loved you since we were kids." Not you're kind, no you're smart, nothing but I've loved you for a long time cuz you've been pretty for a long time. I didn't get this at all from the scene... I think what's nice about WestAllen is that the writers have SHOWN us why Barry is so in love with Iris - you SEE her doing things to warrant that love from the beginning. That Barry didn't necessarily say that means little - especially since Iris already knew Barry loved her as a person - they both love each other that way. The only difference was that Barry was "in love" - not much more to it than to just say that. So - I can't see what you mean there. I think that if Barry was expressing those feelings to someone he'd known a shorter time (like Linda Park), then yeah - he'll have to be a lot more specific... but with Iris since we already SEE the reasons he loves her and we assume she knows why he loves her that way - that adding in the "in love" part shouldn't take such a huge declaration. For Barry - just getting it all out was the hurdle. Also on the friendship tip, they really need to sell the friendship better. I get it from her but from him, I just get girl he has a crush on. He never talks to her about any of his problems. She's initiating contact ninety percent of the time and almost everything they do together is things that he likes to do. Well, aside frome the fact that Barry mentioned times they have connected over things before and there were scenes this season so far of Iris actually talking with Barry about problems (sometimes she didn't even know they were flash problems), I think a lot of this is because Barry's father has inserted the Flash wedge between them... We learn a lot about Barry/Iris via others talking about it or them reminiscing, but we see less of it because most of Barry's interaction right now with anyone revolves around The Flash. Now that I think about it, the ONLY thing non-flash related that we EVER see Barry talk about is Iris. I think the divide between them (that Iris has asked about repeatedly) is BECAUSE Joe won't let him tell her about this. I do think she's going to be really hurt when she finds out - at both her dad and Barry. And she'd be right. I'd be especially angry that the 3 musketeers in the lab knew and I - his best friend - was left out of it and THAT's why he'd been giving me so much grief about the blog. Because that's such a HUGE part of who he is now - it's unfair to leave his best friend out of it. But according to Tom Cavanaugh, I don't think that secret will last much longer. But yea, I do agree that they have to fix Iris while this show is in the "honeymoon" phase. The writers can only isolate her from the rest of the crew ( she's not even allowed to have a decent relationship with her father and that should be easy) for so long before the audience starts to turn on her. Luckily She starts her job at the paper this week so she should at the very least have an outlet While I don't believe Iris needs to be "fixed", I am excited that she's about to start her journey as a reporter. I think that alone should bring her into the main action a lot like more, a la Lois Lane. Edited January 25, 2015 by phoenics 2 Link to comment
quarks January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 If we were headed for Snow-Allen, we'd be getting much bigger moments. Not necessarily. I feel like a bit of a broken record here, but, again, we're only ten episodes into a show that the producers are hoping will last at least five years (115 episodes) and possibly ten (230 episodes.) Given Smallville and Supernatural, that's not an unreasonable hope. If the idea is to keep Barry/Caitlin as a long term future option, there's no need to plant big moments now - just a few moments here and there. Exactly what the show seems to be doing, even if those moments aren't necessarily convincing viewers. Regarding Barry not running off to rescue Caitlin - very true; but just a few episodes back, Iris was in a hostage situation, and Barry spent that episode bonding with Caitlin. I don't think either incident means much either way: at most, they cancel each other out. Agreed that breadcrumbs have been planted for Cisco/Caitlin, though once again, I have no idea if that will get played out, or just teased. 2 Link to comment
phoenics January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) Not necessarily. I feel like a bit of a broken record here, but, again, we're only ten episodes into a show that the producers are hoping will last at least five years (115 episodes) and possibly ten (230 episodes.) Given Smallville and Supernatural, that's not an unreasonable hope. If the idea is to keep Barry/Caitlin as a long term future option, there's no need to plant big moments now - just a few moments here and there. Exactly what the show seems to be doing, even if those moments aren't necessarily convincing viewers. I don't think I'd use Smallville as an example here - given that the show ran ten years and still kept BOTH canonical couples, even with many fans screaming for Chloe/Clark. Lois/Clark as endgame is not something you can just knock off - not on tv.. not even with the new 52. Comic book fans might know of new 52 stuff, but most fans don't. And it's odd - somehow SnowBarry gets all of the benefit of the "moments" by its fans, but those same fans discount similar moments (even bigger and far more numerous ones) when speaking of westallen. Also - quite a few moments aren't "moments" to me. When Showbarry fans hold onto "pee in this cup!" as a "moment", well I don't know what to say to that. You might as well count Cisco playing Barry music as a "moment". Both had exactly the same weight. The hazards of shipping I suppose. Regarding Barry not running off to rescue Caitlin - very true; but just a few episodes back, Iris was in a hostage situation, and Barry spent that episode bonding with Caitlin. I don't think either incident means much either way: at most, they cancel each other out. That - imo - is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. Barry lost his powers and spent much of that time trying to get his powers back (the moment he found out Iris and Joe were in trouble he was FRANTIC to get his powers back) - he also bonded with the villain in an attempt to get the villain to stop going after them. He also bonded with Wells and Cisco. He also seemed to get his powers back fully when Wells was threatened. He was not just sitting around bonding with Caitlin while Iris was in danger - he wanted to save all of them and to do that he needed his powers - hell - to save Iris he needed his powers. Also - Caitlin's dialogue in the episode around not wanting to lose someone else she cared about - if any breadcrumbs are being left, they are Fire and Ice breadcrumbs - Caitlin is still in love with her fiance - and much of what we've seen with her heavy mothering of Barry and the team stems from her projecting her feelings of loss onto the rest of them. Anyway - the moment Barry got his powers back, defeated the villain and saved the team, his first word was "Iris". So - again - I think the way you presented that is a gross misrepresentation of what aired. If the writers were trying to leave crumbs, I think they would have had Barry rescue Caitlin. And even still, there would have been a scene afterwards for him to assure himself that she was okay. None - NONE of that happened. The writers didn't even ATTEMPT to leave any shipper bait - in fact, they just left KillerVibe bait. Contrast that with how Barry is with Iris and it's just not even close. All I see between Barry, Cisco, Caitlin and Wells, is friendship. They are a team. But that team is going to break up eventually - first with Wells and then even possibly with Caitlin. The fellowship of the flash won't last forever. This isn't Arrow. Agreed that breadcrumbs have been planted for Cisco/Caitlin, though once again, I have no idea if that will get played out, or just teased. I really love the name KillerVibe - but I don't even see Cisco/Caitlin as romantic - I just see a deep friendship. Edited January 25, 2015 by phoenics 5 Link to comment
Enero January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) Regarding Barry not running off to rescue Caitlin - very true; but just a few episodes back, Iris was in a hostage situation, and Barry spent that episode bonding with Caitlin. I don't think either incident means much either way: at most, they cancel each other out. True. But then at the end of the episode he rushed to the police precinct to see if Iris and Joe were okay and was beside himself until he found them. He then had that encounter as Flash with Iris in the hallway of the hospital, telling her she was worth being on time for. So I feel the writers did add a few more bones to the Iris/Barry ship, which greatly out weighs what has been done with Caitlyn/Barry. I just don't see a set up for Caitlyn and Barry right now. All I see is friendship. Edited to say phoenics broke this down much better than I could. Agreed that breadcrumbs have been planted for Cisco/Caitlin, though once again, I have no idea if that will get played out, or just teased. I have nothing against Cisco and the actor who plays him, but despite his bonding moments with Caitlyn I cannot see them having a romantic relationship. He looks like her little brother. I feel a friendship/sibling vibe with them, nothing more. Edited January 25, 2015 by Enero 3 Link to comment
Shanna January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 The writers have definitely pushed iris and Barry, IMO, it's just that it's all from Barry's side and I just haven't enjoyed it. I am also irritated by the heavy similarities between iris and Lois. I don't want to see another journalist falling for the Heros alter ego. The familial vibe is the new thing which I very much enjoy if they are going to be just friends but not as much with the idea of a relationship looming...and if they get together, there is no surprise. I don't actually see too much romantic chemistry either. Eh. His interactions with Caitlin I feel like I could see something happen there, but it obviously hadn't yet. But I think a lot of my preference for watching Caitlin and Barry together is that I like to watch a relationship develop onscreen. Established relationships are just different. Btw, I adore Caitlin and Cisco together but they seem extremely platonic to me. I haven't seen anyone shipping them yet, but I don't follow this show all over creation. Link to comment
Trini January 25, 2015 Author Share January 25, 2015 they are Fire and Ice breadcrumbs - Caitlin is still in love with her fiance - Yep. The show keeps bringing this up again and again. This would be the main reason I don't see anything happening (now or in the near future) with Barry and Caitlyn. 1 Link to comment
Oscirus January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) And the "almost kiss" wasn't an almost kiss at all in my opinion - as in, there is no way Barry was thinking that... and as for Caitlin, it looked more like she was going to say something else - not go in for a kiss. I'm not at all arguing that Barry was going to kiss Caitlin. I guess it comes down to how each person interprets the scene but IMO when she approached him, I saw it as her definitely going in for a kiss. What feelings? Caitlin has never shown the slightest bit of attraction towards Barry. It's super easy to fanwank romantic intent anytime attractive people share a tender moment onscreen I believe almost kissing somebody is a pretty big indicator that you like them. If I was trying to fanwank them together I would've included the hand holding scene in that episode but I separated that as it could easily be dismissed as her being scared. As for why he wasn't the one to rescue her complete with a tender moment last episode, I believe it was more important to establish that the rest of Star labs/ Joe West was competent enough to do things without Flash. I'm not saying Snow-Barry is somehow going to become the canon couple, I'm saying the writers planted more then enough evidence that something is going to happen between the two in the future. As to why he loves her... I don't need Barry to list what's apparent to see. fact that Iris is warm and accepting, supportive, fun to be around and clearly his dearest friend and the love of his life has been shown every episodethis show has aired. I get why he loves her, I just don't get why the writers didn't have him say that. "I've loved you since the moment I've saw you," pretty much states that he liked the way she looked and all the things you point out enhanced his feelings, The scene was written fairly lazily written for a moment that was supposed to be so pivotal. And while you guys do raise good points about their friendship, I still have a hard time completely buying it on his end. Especially when he starts off one episode talking about how lonely he is. Cisco-Caitlin is a hard sell since interest in such a thing isn't coming from either person. Edited January 25, 2015 by Oscirus Link to comment
driedfruit January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) I have nothing against Cisco and the actor who plays him, but despite his bonding moments with Caitlyn I cannot see them having a romantic relationship. He looks like her little brother. I feel a friendship/sibling vibe with them, nothing more. That's what I think about Caitlin/Barry. He even looks a bit like he could actually be her little brother. LOL I get why he loves her, I just don't get why the writers didn't have him say that. "I've loved you since the moment I've saw you," pretty much states that he liked the way she looked and all the things you point out enhanced his feelings, The scene was written fairly lazily written for a moment that was supposed to be so pivotal. But Barry never said that. He only said he loved her before he knew what the word meant, as in he was in love with her while they were playmates at 11. And before he moved in with her. And while you guys do raise good points about their friendship, I still have a hard time completely buying it on his end. Especially when he starts off one episode talking about how lonely he is. There's a Grant interview where he pretty much spells out that Barry is lonely because he can't share his secret with Iris. That he knows she would understand in a way no one else could. Which sounds about right. Not necessarily.I feel like a bit of a broken record here, but, again, we're only ten episodes into a show that the producers are hoping will last at least five years (115 episodes) and possibly ten (230 episodes.) Given Smallville and Supernatural, that's not an unreasonable hope. If the idea is to keep Barry/Caitlin as a long term future option, there's no need to plant big moments now - just a few moments here and there. Exactly what the show seems to be doing, even if those moments aren't necessarily convincing viewers. Smallville had way, way bigger shippy moments for Chloe/Clarke, going so far as to have Chloe in love with him, and yet that ship never happened. If Flash is using that model, then Caitlin/Barry aren't even on the radar. Edited January 25, 2015 by driedfruit 1 Link to comment
lilithred January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 (edited) Iris was in a hostage situation, and Barry spent that episode bonding with Caitlin. Right, and then as soon as he got his powers back, he whispered Iris's name and ran off to make sure she was okay. And then he apologized for not saving her in the form of The Flash. The point is not that Barry didn't save Caitlin, it's that the writers wrote no resolution for her hostage storyline when they easily could have if they were interested in them as romantic couple, the same way they did with Barry and Iris. If Caitlin has feelings for Barry, my channel has been on the wrong station this entire time and I've been watching a different show. I was so confused for a moment about what this "almost kiss" was that was being referred to, and then I thought surely we're not talking about that brief moment in the power outage episode where Caitlin looked as if she wanted to say something to Barry right before Cisco interrupted them? Surely we don't think that ANYONE in their right mind would choose that moment to make a move on a man they've just met and started working with, someone they know fully well is in love with someone else, and surely if there was such an awkward, inappropriate individual, it wouldn't be glacial, icy exterior-ed Caitlin Snow? When Barry got mean with Caitlin while he was under the metahuman affects, we never even saw a resolution for it on screen. In fact, Barry apologized to everyone for his behavior EXCEPT her. But who was the main person he wanted to make sure would forgive him? Iris. Barry got all of his coworkers gifts for Christmas and we saw him hand something to Cailtin...what was it? We'll never know, but his necklace to Iris was a pretty big deal and the whole episode pretty much revolved around it. My point is that if they were laying the groundwork for Snowbarry, they've let plenty of possible romantic opportunities come and go. They're focus right now seems to be Barry and Iris. I see him building a friendship with Caitlin, and I see that they're using her interactions with Barry to help develop her character. For example, her crying to Barry about Ronnie wasn't about the two of them. It was to let us in on Caitlin's backstory and the pain she was holding on to regarding her dead fiance. Them bonding over it was just a plus. No one is saying it that Snowbarry could NEVER happen. The writers can do whatever they want, all it takes is a stroke of the pen, but I completely disagree that they're laying down the groundwork for them as a romance. I see two people forming a friendship. And if we're all so concerned about preserving platonic friendships on TV, how about we start with their's? That's what I think about Caitlin/Barry. He even looks a bit like he could actually be her little brother. LOL They do look like brother and sister. And am I the only who thinks she seems to old for him? Not that Danielle looks significantly older or anything, but the way they both carry themselves and act around each other make them appear to be in the two different age ranges. He and Felicity look fine together, even cute, but the thought of romantic Caitlin/Barry makes me laugh for some reason. It would be like an adult with a teen. Edited January 25, 2015 by shar 7 Link to comment
phoenics January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 The writers have definitely pushed iris and Barry, IMO, it's just that it's all from Barry's side and I just haven't enjoyed it. I am also irritated by the heavy similarities between iris and Lois. I don't want to see another journalist falling for the Heros alter ego. The familial vibe is the new thing which I very much enjoy if they are going to be just friends but not as much with the idea of a relationship looming...and if they get together, there is no surprise. I don't actually see too much romantic chemistry either. Eh. It's so interesting how differently people see chemistry. I don't see any - zero - with SnowBarry, but the Iris/Flash interaction was like a taste of what Barry/Iris could be like in the future and that scene with them on the roof gave me goosebumps. Literally. Goosebumps. As for the similarities between Iris and Lois - well, that's kinda part of the character. Iris is meant to be a little spunkier than Lois and less "acclaimed" so to speak, but she is supposed to be kinda like Lois. One major difference between Iris and Lois is that Lois fell for Superman first. And she never really - not in the comics at least - fell for "just Clark". Iris is special in that she (from a comic perspective) did fall in love with Barry Allen and not the flash. I think that's exactly why the writers had Caitlin warning Barry not to break up Eddie/Iris as "The Flash" (and not due to them trying to drop SnowBarry bait) because Iris really is - if she falls at all - supposed to fall for Barry Allen... not The Flash. I do think that the writers are trying to illustrate through Barry's story that he's the most of himself with he is The Flash. He's more confident. He's more honest. He's less fearful. I think Barry Allen has been living in fear most of his life due to Reverse Flash killing his mom and his fear of RF. In the mid-season finale, we saw Barry Allen take steps to remove fear from his life and LIVE by telling Iris he was in love with her. We saw him start to live some of that confidence that The Flash gave him. I think Linda Park will be good for him in that he'll be able to be himself - more confident and less guarded. It's hard to be yourself when you're hiding your feelings for a woman from said woman. With Linda he won't need to do that and he'll be more confident. I think Iris will see that and start to wonder... and when Iris/Barry do eventually get together, I think she'll be in love with Barry - and The Flash will just be a "job" to her - until she finds out. I do wonder if the show will start showing us some of that Iris/The Flash chemistry that we saw on the rooftop between them with Barry and Iris instead... Either way - looking forward to what comes next. I think a lot of my preference for watching Caitlin and Barry together is that I like to watch a relationship develop onscreen. This makes a lot of sense to me. But I guess for me, I am watching a relationship (romantic) develop between Iris and Barry - it's just watching one develop out of a friendship, when one of them is already pining for the other. A ton of people shipped Chloe and Clark - when the setup was nearly the same. Chloe was in love with Clark - and they'd been best friends for like, ever. But that didn't stop a lot of folks from shipping them hard - so hard that the Lana hatred (and then Lois hatred) was kinda legendary in the fandom due to both of those characters blocking Chloe from Clark (in their minds). But I do get what you mean - it's very satisfying to see a couple start off as nothing and then develop a relationship from there... I guess since I saw Clark on "Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman" pine away for Lois for an entire season and then half of the next season, I'm used to this trope... it didn't hurt that the show kept Lois & Clark joined at the hip on the show so we could see their friendship a lot. I do think The Flash is headed there to have Iris and The Flash "work more" together - not quite like Lois & Clark though... Like I said above - a major difference between Iris and Lois is that comic spoiler: Iris completely falls in love with BARRY, not The Flash - she marries him and doesn't even find out about his secret identity until their wedding night when he talks in his sleep. I don't think that's what will happen here - I think Iris will figure it out on her own - but I do think that when Iris falls for Barry, it will be for BARRY, not The Flash... 2 Link to comment
phoenics January 25, 2015 Share January 25, 2015 Right, and then as soon as he got his powers back, he whispered Iris's name and ran off to make sure she was okay. And then he apologized for not saving her in the form of The Flash. The point is not that Barry didn't save Caitlin, it's that the writers wrote no resolution for her hostage storyline when they easily could have if they were interested in them as romantic couple, the same way they did with Barry and Iris. If Caitlin has feelings for Barry, my channel has been on the wrong station this entire time and I've been watching a different show. I was so confused for a moment about what this "almost kiss" was that was being referred to, and then I thought surely we're not talking about that brief moment in the power outage episode where Caitlin looked as if she wanted to say something to Barry right before Cisco interrupted them? Surely we don't think that ANYONE in their right mind would choose that moment to make a move on a man they've just met and started working with, someone they know fully well is in love with someone else, and surely if there was such an awkward, inappropriate individual, it wouldn't be glacial, icy exterior-ed Caitlin Snow? When Barry got mean with Caitlin while he was under the metahuman affects, we never even saw a resolution for it on screen. In fact, Barry apologized to everyone for his behavior EXCEPT her. But who was the main person he wanted to make sure would forgive him? Iris. Barry got all of his coworkers gifts for Christmas and we saw him hand something to Cailtin...what was it? We'll never know, but his necklace to Iris was a pretty big deal and the whole episode pretty much revolved around it. My point is that if they were laying the groundwork for Snowbarry, they've let plenty of possible romantic opportunities come and go. They're focus right now seems to be Barry and Iris. I see him building a friendship with Caitlin, and I see that they're using her interactions with Barry to help develop her character. For example, her crying to Barry about Ronnie wasn't about the two of them. It was to let us in on Caitlin's backstory and the pain she was holding on to regarding her dead fiance. Them bonding over it was just a plus. No one is saying it that Snowbarry could NEVER happen. The writers can do whatever they want, all it takes is a stroke of the pen, but I completely disagree that they're laying down the groundwork for them as a romance. I see two people forming a friendship. And if we're all so concerned about preserving platonic friendships on TV, how about we start with their's? ICAM. They do look like brother and sister. And am I the only who thinks she seems to old for him? Not that Danielle looks significantly older or anything, but the way they both carry themselves and act around each other make them appear to be in the two different age ranges. He and Felicity look fine together, even cute, but the thought of romantic Caitlin/Barry makes me laugh for some reason. It would be like an adult with a teen. I agree with this - plus Caitlin just has "mother hen" all over her. The only time I've seen her look "right" with a dude is with Ronnie - especially that scene after The Flash/RF fought and Ronnie Firestormed all over RF and Caitlin stepped OVER an injured Barry to get to Ronnie. Do people not like Fire & Ice because that's already "a relationship"? Or because Firestorm isn't "the star" of The Flash? I just think they are going to have some really good and angsty stuff coming up... the whole Firestorm angle is just angst-filled to begin with... I think that could drive Caitlin to try something really dangerous... that might lead to you know what... Link to comment
quarks January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 To address just two quick points: I don't think I'd use Smallville as an example here While yes, Smallville is a good example of a show sticking with comics canon, it's also a good example of exactly what I'm talking about, since Clark didn't end up with either of the girls who were on the show with him in episode ten. The endgame love interest was introduced in season four, not season one, and Lana, the character Clark was pining over in the first few seasons, wasn't even in the final season. I think you've misinterpreted my argument about the kidnapping, but we'll leave it there. Do people not like Fire & Ice because that's already "a relationship"? I don't think anyone's arguing that they don't like it? At least not on this thread. At most, people are arguing that we haven't really seen much of it. Once they interact on screen more, who knows? At the moment, I'm totally neutral on it, but that's entirely because I really haven't seen enough to judge. It could be awesome. It could totally suck. Link to comment
Shanna January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 I have pretty much zero opinion on "fire an ice" because we barely met firestorm and I have no identification of Caitlin as ice. She was grieving in the first few episodes and now she's confused. That's pretty much it. As for other points..I can't judge this show based on stuff that happened in the comics. I think they started showing iris getting a crush on the flash, and flirting together with him is the flash. Now, they may be changing that in the future but at this point we have literally no clue what iris thinks of Barry now!!! She is still moving in with Eddie. I actually like her together with Eddie and have seen how they interact in a relationship. I am not opposed to the idea of her getting together with Barry but all we've see so far is mopey unrequited love Barry and oblivious, BFF iris. I guess I don't identify enough with Barry to want him to have iris just because he wants her. They need to give me something more than that and so far they haven't. Btw, in Lois an Clarke I did think that counted as building a relationship because I don't think Clark was actually pathetically moping all the time, they were always working together (kind of like Caitlin and Barry, and felicity/ Oliver) even though Lois didn't know his secret. As for smallville, I think people hated Lana regardless of their opinion of Chloe and Clark. 1 Link to comment
phoenics January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) While yes, Smallville is a good example of a show sticking with comics canon, it's also a good example of exactly what I'm talking about, since Clark didn't end up with either of the girls who were on the show with him in episode ten. The endgame love interest was introduced in season four, not season one, and Lana, the character Clark was pining over in the first few seasons, wasn't even in the final season. Still not a good example, sorry. I was never talking about Lana vs. Lois - because BOTH are comic canon love interests of Clark/Supes. So I knew from the beginning that Clark/Lana were not endgame - but I enjoyed them while they lasted... but in my heart, I'm a definite Chlois fan - because they ARE endgame. Just like (from a comic canon perspective), West Allen is. My argument - which you seem to have either misunderstood or twisted - was that CHLOE and Clark were never - ever - made canon and instead the show stuck with the two canon couples from the Superman mythos (Lana and Lois). I stated that upfront - did you miss that part of my argument? Because that was kinda the point. Chloe and Clark are essentially equivalent to SnowBarry - as in something fans have latched onto but that doesn't exist in comic canon. Using Smallville to support Snowbarry happening falls apart because Smallville stuck EXACTLY to comic canon where the relationships were concerned, even if they played around with the timeline a bit. Hell - I'd even argue that a lot of folks loved Chloe/Clark because Chloe acted more like a young Lois Lane than Lois did when she first showed up. Lois had to "grow" into being Lois - but fans gave her the time and space to do that. Hopefully it will be true with Iris as well. But back to my point: From my perspective, I NEVER thought Lana/Clark were endgame because I knew about Lois/Clark. The ONLY way I would think Lana/Clark would be endgame is if Lois never showed up. Then I'd think, well, okay, they might end with Lana/Clark - or they might just have Clark go off to Metropolis in search of his "future". Your example actually proves my point. The Lana/Clark/Lois love triangle was HUGE in the 70-80s in the comics and it wasn't until the 90s that the comics finally had Superman choose that it was Lois once and for all. From a comic canon perspective - Westallen is endgame. Iris IS basically like Lois is to Superman. Now they may decide to drop it on the show, but given Geoff Johns' involvement and his love/ownership of The Flash, I doubt it. Edited January 26, 2015 by phoenics 2 Link to comment
LindaBelcher January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) In terms of shipping, the two biggest ships on the Flash are definitely SnowBarry and WestAllen. Barry/Caitlin- I kind of see the show leaving breadcrumbs for Barry/Caitlin. The most obvious shipper bait was them holding hands in Power Outage. I think Barry/Caitlin care about each other. Caitlin is definitely protective of Barry but I feel a lot of that ties back to Ronnie. I think in some ways Barry is a place holder for Ronnie. Barry kind of references that in the crossover ep when tells her she's needs to stop treating him like he's Ronnie. After Barry's fight with Reverse Flash, he's lying there bruised and broken. Caitlin runs straight past him to Ronnie's side. I won't say they won't happen because it's the CW. While Caitlin could develop feelings for Barry, I don't think Barry will ever fall out of love with Iris. I could see them dating down the line but not ending up together. Barry/Iris- I love their friendship. I easily see why Barry is head over heels in love with her. She's fun and bubbly. She does nothing but encourage him and tell him how amazing he is. People compare them to Clark/Lana but it's surface level comparison. Barry isn't the lonely geek in love with the popular cheerleader he in reality doesn't know. They have a deep friendship. They know each other's strengths and weaknesses. They've have seen each other through the highs and lows. I want more insight into Iris' feelings. I'm not sure what her feelings are for Barry. I'm not sure Iris knows what her feelings are either. She hesitated when Eddie asked her if she had second thoughts. I do think it's interesting that that she never felt the need to have a relationship until Barry was conveniently absent from her life. Eddie/Iris- They're okay. The relationship doesn't seem deep to me even though they've exchanged i love you's and moved into together. I buy that they love each other somewhat but I don't see them as being in love. Iris got him a shirt for Christmas and didn't even know his shirt size. There seems to be small seeds of doubt growing within Iris. She'll ignore them until something forces her to acknowledge them ie Barry dating someone else. The relationship is on borrowed time. Caitlin/Cisco- Besides Barry/Iris they have gotten some of the most shippiest material. He's the one to save her. When he does he tells her she's not going to die on his watch. He's the one to comfort her about Ronnie, holding her while she cries. Very shippable material very few seem to be on that boat. Edited January 26, 2015 by LindaBelcher 2 Link to comment
Trini January 26, 2015 Author Share January 26, 2015 What about Barry/Felicity? I'm still keeping hope alive. :-) 2 Link to comment
lilithred January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) You know, if they ARE purposely dropping romantic hints for Snowbarry, I'm not okay with that at all. It weakens and undermines the actual foreground, love story they are trying to sell. If they eventually want to take that route, cool, but don't do it while simultaneously telling me that Iris is the love of his life. Either commit to writing one romance at a time, or go the full blown triangle route. I would feel this way even if Barry's main love WAS Caitlin. Don't play the "Barry only has eyes for one girl...or does he?" game. It's cheap. Edited January 26, 2015 by shar 3 Link to comment
driedfruit January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 A part of the problem with the relationship hopping with Flash is the time-travel nature of the show. Unless the writers bend themselves backwards trying to keep the mystery, Barry's endgame should be clear for storyline purposes. I guess I just don't see the appeal of relationship drama when it messes with important stuff so much. 1 Link to comment
Enero January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 What about Barry/Felicity? I'm still keeping hope alive. :-) They're adorable, but I fear if they hooked up we'd all go into sugar shock due to all the sweetness and positivity. Lol. Plus I like her with Oliver. 2 Link to comment
FurryFury January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) I'd say Iris is way sweeter than Felicity, actually. Felicity's an experienced crime fighter and a hero in her own right, even if she's not an action girl. She has stood up to real villains and handled it admirably, she's had her losses and trials too. Anyway, Felicity/Barry would never happen because of Olicity, so what's the point of discussing it? I'd still take it over any other Barry pairing because she's the only one he has strong romantic chemistry with AND she's a interesting character in her own right already (we'll probably have to wait a season or two for Iris to develop a personality, and Caitlin isn't exactly brimming with it too). Edited January 26, 2015 by FurryFury 1 Link to comment
driedfruit January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) I'd say Iris is way sweeter than Felicity, actually. Felicity's an experienced crime fighter and a hero in her own right, even if she's not an action girl. She has stood up to real villains and handled it admirably, she's had her losses and trials too. So has Iris. I find the comparisons between Felicity and Iris/Caitlin so tiring. Especially since Felicity is pretty poorly developed. Emily is a cutie though. I honestly think the comparisons come down to people preferring the actress over the others (and often for the purpose of finding fault with Candice and Danielle). Because if we're talking about complex female characters with interesting arcs, Felicity shouldn't really be used as an example. (we'll probably have to wait a season or two for Iris to develop a personality, and Caitlin isn't exactly brimming with it too). They both have very distinct personalities that became apparent within the first few episodes. Neither of them are fully developed yet, but the personality complaint seems really random and baseless imo. Edited January 26, 2015 by driedfruit 5 Link to comment
Xander January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 Comedic characters often have fans plus Felicity is always in the thick of things when it comes to crime-fighting. Plus she's been around longer. Link to comment
phoenics January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 I think there is a lot of hero worship with Felicity as a character. Fans were desperate for some character to save them from the darkness that is Arrow and Felicity swooped in a did it. But honestly - the character is a bit of a Mary Sue - way too perfect and a bit of a fan self-insert. And I disagree obviously that Felicity is the only one Barry has chemistry with. I think it's pretty clear from a story perspective that Candace and Grant play the Barry/Iris chemistry differently than they do the Flash/Iris chemistry - which is to say the B/I chemistry is being held back on purpose and that it will be held back until they finally have Barry finally be honest about him being the Flash AND until they have him have full confidence in himself as Barry Allen. I did like Barry/Felicity's interaction onscreen but I prefer Olicity. 2 Link to comment
FurryFury January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) I definitely don't hero worship Felicity or think she's the best thing ever. She isn't even one of my favorite Arrow characters (that would be Sara and Moira). She's just better than Caitlyn or Iris, so far - much more dynamic (which was obvious ever her since first appearance), more funny, yes, and still better developed (mostly because she has had much more screen-time). Iris and Caitlyn can become better, of course, but I'm comparing the characters at this point, and Felicity is just more interesting, no contest. And no, she's not a Mary Sue. Laurel is a much better candidate for that, honestly. How many characters were killed or sidelined to make her a superhero? Such an unearned development. Chemistry is a very subjective thing. I could have probably seen more between Iris and Barry if the show had spent at least a few episodes on developing her side of story, her POV, her opinion on Barry. But I've already written about it. As it stands, they have OK friendship chemistry (better than Barry and Caitlyn, that's for sure), but nothing special. Edited January 26, 2015 by FurryFury 1 Link to comment
quarks January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 did you miss that part of my argument? No. Here's what I said, bolded: While yes, Smallville is a good example of a show sticking with comics canon, This is why I'm getting the impression that you are misquoting and misinterpreting my posts. I was not using Smallville to support Snowbarry. I was using Smallville to point out that Westallen might not be endgame, which is not the same argument, and is not the same thing as saying that Snowberry will be the replacement for Westallen. Smallville is, however, just one of many television examples where for whatever reason the original love interest isn't the final one. For what it's worth, it usually has nothing to do with original plans, but rather actors leaving the show. In some cases, a new love interest is brought in (Downton Abbey, OUAT, Parks and Recreation, Buffy, Angel), in some cases, the show decides not to bother to replace the love interest (Cheers) or kills everyone off (Game of Thrones, kidding). And that's the problem with using Smallville as an example here. You can use Smallville to argue that Flash will stick with comics canon. You can also use Smallville to argue that Flash will drop the original love interest. Since Barry and Iris are both - comics canon and the original love interest - I think the arguments cancel each other out. The Lana/Clark/Lois love triangle was HUGE in the 70-80s in the comics and it wasn't until the 90s that the comics finally had Superman choose that it was Lois once and for all. Ah, comics history. Lana Lang was created in 1950 partly to avoid further issues with Jerry Siegel, who had successfully sued DC for copyright violations with Superboy. DC did not want to worsen matters by putting Lois Lane into that comic, so, Lana. Later, DC brought Lana into other Superman comics, turning her into Lois's rival during the 1960s and early 1970s, though Lois remained the main love interest. In the late 1970s and very early 80s, however, thanks to the Superman films, which featured Lois, Lana retreated from the love interest role for the adult Clark – until, that is, Margot Kidder, who played Lois in the films, fought with the director and the studio. As a result, Superman III used Lana, not Lois, as the main love interest – and to bolster that, the comics started focusing on Lana again, creating the Lana/Clark/Lois triangle you are referring to. (This is discussed at length in multiple studies of Superman and the films.) So this is more an example of the films influencing the comics, rather than the other way around. What is a good example for your argument: with this love triangle, sales for the Superman comic flagged in the 1980s, part of why John Byrne and DC decided to drop Lana and focus on Clark and Lois, which eventually led to Clark and Lois getting engaged and married in the 1990s. But not, as it turned out, "once and for all." Just until 2011, when the comic was rebooted again. In 2012, Superman was dating Wonder Woman, not Lois Lane. Which brings me to: Now they may decide to drop it on the show, but given Geoff Johns' involvement and his love/ownership of The Flash, I doubt it. .....maybe? Because as I pointed out earlier on this thread, Geoff Johns is also the one who hooked up Superman and Wonder Woman. And he's the guy who married off the third Flash, Wally West, to Linda Parks, who is coming to this show soon as Barry's love interest, suggesting that he's willing to break canon there. Given that the television Barry Allen has some elements of the Wally West character, it's possible that Linda Parks will end up being the canonical love interest for this show I agree that Johns loves Flash. It's just that I haven't seen any indication that he's absolutely dead set on following comics canon. But going back to Smallville briefly, yes, Smallville and Lois and Clark, both shows about DC's best known character, Superman, stuck with comic canon for their endgame pairing - though I think it's significant that Lois and Clark was launched without a single possible love rival. Meanwhile, looking at other comics TV shows - the 1970s Wonder Woman show ended up abandoning Steve Trevor; the 1978 Incredible Hulk never even introduced Betty Ross; the 1990s Flash introduced Iris, but went with Tina McGee as the love interest; Agents of Shield has dropped the canonical Mockingbird/Hawkeye, at least for now; Arrow is going with Oliver and Felicity, not Oliver and Laurel, again at least for now; and Smallville hooked Oliver Queen up with Chloe, not Dinah Lance. In other words, there's examples of shows sticking with comic canon, dropping comic canon, and sticking to canon in some places and dropping it in others. [Cutting this into a second post because it's getting a bit long.] Link to comment
quarks January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 Focusing on the show, instead of comics: In favor of Barry/Iris: They clearly care about each other; Barry rushed to her after he woke up; his gift of her mother's wedding ring shows significant understanding and caring; Barry's shown clear jealousy; several characters have stated that they can see how much he cares about her; Iris said that she was investigating the Flash stories for the sake of her best friend (the shippiest moment we've had from her); they laugh together and she's willing to pay attention to his interests; and she's come to visit him a lot. Also, big: he said "I love you" to her. Unfortunately, that big moment is also the biggest mark against them: in general, in U.S. television, the undeclared but endgame couple does not say "I love you" just nine episodes into the first season; indeed, if an undeclared couple does do this, it's almost always a sign that they aren't endgame and may be going very bad places, or that the show isn't getting a second season. Even endgame couples that do get together in first season get together later in the season, and most endgame couples wait at least until the end of the first season, if not much later, before saying anything - and that anything is often just an acknowledgement that the interest exists. Some endgame couples weren't even around in the first season. To be fair, one exception does happen to be on the CW - Reign - but assuming that show remembers that it's supposed to be loosely inspired by history (which is, granted, the biggest assumption I've made in this entire thread), that pattern is going to hold true since Mary still has two more husbands to go. Flash could certainly break the mold here, and I see a few people on this forum arguing that it should, and saying "Don't do all that setup for no payoff." That's the best argument so far for Barry/Iris, but alas, television has been known to crush our little hearts before this. Against Barry/Iris: Yep, Barry started off in love with her - but started flirting with Felicity the second they met, backing off from that only after realizing that she had feelings for Oliver - though, to be fair, on her side, she backed off after she saw that Barry had feelings for Iris. Barry's been lying to Iris for months about his secret, despite telling eight other people, two of whom he barely knows (Roy and Lyla) the truth. (In comparison, at the same point in his show, Oliver had told two people - Diggle and Helena. Over on Forever, which is pulling the similar stunt of not telling the love interest the truth - but also making sure that only two people on the show know. One is Henry's family, the other one shares Henry's abilities.) With the exception of the "I love you" conversation, his deepest, most honest emotional conversations have all been with other characters - his father, Joe, Wells, Oliver, Felicity and Caitlin - and here, the "well, she doesn't know the truth" argument doesn't really apply, since his father doesn't know the truth either. Iris was horrified when Flash attacked her boyfriend. When Barry told Iris he loved her, she chose to stay with Eddie. Which is to return to the point I've been making all along: as of the last episode, the setup allows this show to go in a number of different directions - one of which is Barry/Iris as the ongoing main romance/endgame. Another is "Boy thinks he loves A, but finds out he loves B, C, or D." That might be Barry/Caitlin - they've been given a few long term, slow burn romantic beats (the meet cute,the significant handholding complete with the camera sweeping in, the "I don't want to lose someone else I care about," Caitlin, not Iris, joining the team first, that sort of thing), but just a few. Or it might be another pairing entirely. Or it might be Barry/Iris. I think it's going to be fun to watch, regardless. On a different note, I'd argue that all three women - Felicity, Caitlin, and Iris - could do with more screentime and character development, and in Iris' case a lot more backstory (what's up with her mother?). I hope we get that. At least we've been given a solid reason for Iris to go into journalism; that's a plus. 1 Link to comment
Shanna January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) I'm baffled by the idea that iris is currently more well developed than felicity, because I don't see that at all. Iris so far as we know her is nice and pretty and cares about Barry as a friend and that is kind of it. Felicity has been much more developed than that at this point, professionally and personally. She is no Mary Sue, you can dislike her character without saying that. That said, I never saw all that much chemistry between felicity and Barry, mostly because he seemed rather young for her. Maybe this was highlighted by his comparison to Oliver? Idk. I like them as friends. Quarks, the problem with all your pro iris/Barry stuff for me is that all the romantic feelings are coming from Barry. Everything from iris is explained by their siblingesque upbringing. I have yet to see any romantic inclinations from iris towards Barry. We really need to see what is going in in her head. [btw thanks for all the comic book background! It makes me think things are really up in the air, which is good for a show because it is more fun to not know the outcomes] Edited January 26, 2015 by Shanna 1 Link to comment
Enero January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 I think there is a lot of hero worship with Felicity as a character. Fans were desperate for some character to save them from the darkness that is Arrow and Felicity swooped in a did it. But honestly - the character is a bit of a Mary Sue - way too perfect and a bit of a fan self-insert. I enjoy Felicity but I kind of agree. I'd also argue that EBR's charisma is also what helped her stand out. When you look beyond Felicity's lightness and EBR's charisma, there's not much complexity in the character of Felicity. I don't think she's ever made a collasal mistake, did anything controversial or even been wrong (except maybe once). She doesn't have the complexity of Moira Queen or even Thea or Laurel (sacriledge, I know). So I can see where some might see her as Mary Sueish. I already think the writers are off to a great start with Caitlyn. We are getting more information on her background than we ever got from Felicity in her first couple of years on Arrow. And I think this is only going to get better as this season and future seasons progress. Iris needs work though. She's been neglected, but considering her role in the Flash mythology I'm thinking (and hoping) that we will soon start to see a lot more story for her. On a different note, I'd argue that all three women - Felicity, Caitlin, and Iris - could do with more screentime and character development, and in Iris' case a lot more backstory (what's up with her mother?). I hope we get that. At least we've been given a solid reason for Iris to go into journalism; that's a plus. ICAM! 3 Link to comment
phoenics January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 No. Here's what I said, bolded: I saw that - I disagree with your premise. This is why I'm getting the impression that you are misquoting and misinterpreting my posts. I was not using Smallville to support Snowbarry. I was using Smallville to point out that Westallen might not be endgame, which is not the same argument, and is not the same thing as saying that Snowberry will be the replacement for Westallen. Smallville is, however, just one of many television examples where for whatever reason the original love interest isn't the final one. For what it's worth, it usually has nothing to do with original plans, but rather actors leaving the show. In some cases, a new love interest is brought in (Downton Abbey, OUAT, Parks and Recreation, Buffy, Angel), in some cases, the show decides not to bother to replace the love interest (Cheers) or kills everyone off (Game of Thrones, kidding). And that's the problem with using Smallville as an example here. You can use Smallville to argue that Flash will stick with comics canon. You can also use Smallville to argue that Flash will drop the original love interest. Since Barry and Iris are both - comics canon and the original love interest - I think the arguments cancel each other out. No - you can only do this if you agree that Smallville was going against it's comics canon by having both Lana and Lois. My argument is that is WITHIN Comics Canon. Ah, comics history. Lana Lang was created in 1950 partly to avoid further issues with Jerry Siegel, who had successfully sued DC for copyright violations with Superboy. DC did not want to worsen matters by putting Lois Lane into that comic, so, Lana. Later, DC brought Lana into other Superman comics, turning her into Lois's rival during the 1960s and early 1970s, though Lois remained the main love interest. In the late 1970s and very early 80s, however, thanks to the Superman films, which featured Lois, Lana retreated from the love interest role for the adult Clark – until, that is, Margot Kidder, who played Lois in the films, fought with the director and the studio. As a result, Superman III used Lana, not Lois, as the main love interest – and to bolster that, the comics started focusing on Lana again, creating the Lana/Clark/Lois triangle you are referring to. (This is discussed at length in multiple studies of Superman and the films.) So this is more an example of the films influencing the comics, rather than the other way around. The Lana and Lois triangle was always there in comics canon - as you stated, this was already written in the comics in the early 70s-late 70s... so it makes sense that it would be in Superman III. It's not like the movies just made up the character and inserted her. So - still comic canon... What is a good example for your argument: with this love triangle, sales for the Superman comic flagged in the 1980s, part of why John Byrne and DC decided to drop Lana and focus on Clark and Lois, which eventually led to Clark and Lois getting engaged and married in the 1990s. This isn't entirely true - as I state below, Lois & Clark as a tv show likely influenced the decision to finally cement Lois and Clark in the comics - but that still happened first. They wrote that into the comics BEFORE they allowed Lois and Clark to be written as married on the show. Also - Lana wasn't dropped - she was just demoted in a sense and kept as Clark's high school crush rather than endgame. Smallville did not deviate from that - and that was all set in comic canon before Smallville came into being. But not, as it turned out, "once and for all." Just until 2011, when the comic was rebooted again. In 2012, Superman was dating Wonder Woman, not Lois Lane. Well, that remains to be seen, lol. The new 52 sales aren't doing all that well. And I really can't stand to the WW/Superman story. It kills a lot that is/was special about Superman/Clark and is too much "sameness" between a couple. There is no real balance. .....maybe? Because as I pointed out earlier on this thread, Geoff Johns is also the one who hooked up Superman and Wonder Woman. And he's the guy who married off the third Flash, Wally West, to Linda Parks, who is coming to this show soon as Barry's love interest, suggesting that he's willing to break canon there. Eh - I don't think this means we won't see Wally on the show actually, so I'm not sold that this will break canon. It's too soon to tell. Given that the television Barry Allen has some elements of the Wally West character, it's possible that Linda Parks will end up being the canonical love interest for this show I agree that Johns loves Flash. It's just that I haven't seen any indication that he's absolutely dead set on following comics canon. Hmmmm I think he is wrt to WestAllen, ;) But going back to Smallville briefly, yes, Smallville and Lois and Clark, both shows about DC's best known character, Superman, stuck with comic canon for their endgame pairing - though I think it's significant that Lois and Clark was launched without a single possible love rival. Meanwhile, looking at other comics TV shows - the 1970s Wonder Woman show ended up abandoning Steve Trevor; the 1978 Incredible Hulk never even introduced Betty Ross; the 1990s Flash introduced Iris, but went with Tina McGee as the love interest; Agents of Shield has dropped the canonical Mockingbird/Hawkeye, at least for now; Arrow is going with Oliver and Felicity, not Oliver and Laurel, again at least for now; and Smallville hooked Oliver Queen up with Chloe, not Dinah Lance. In other words, there's examples of shows sticking with comic canon, dropping comic canon, and sticking to canon in some places and dropping it in others. I think the 1990s version of Flash definitely mixed Wally/Barry and mixed quite a bit up - not sure it's a great example here. Lois/Clark/Lana - as I've stated over and over again, Smallville stuck to canon on that one. Lana was always the first love and Lois was always the endgame. Barry doesn't really have that - he only has the endgame - Iris. I feel confident that since the CW has shown us that they stick to comic canon when it's necessary. The other examples you've shown? Of other comic couples? None of them are comic royalty like Lois/Clark or Iris/Barry, as has already been said. To recap because we're going in circles: I'm not misunderstanding you - I'm disagreeing with your premise that the decision to have Lana as the love interest first and then Lois second was due to the tv show changing things up, when what Smallville did was in line with the comics. The tv show didn't switch things up. It followed canon. Smallville was written after all of the decisions about Lois/Clark/Lana were made in the comics. It was based on that. Check Secret Origins for more on that - Lana is widely known and understood to be Clark's first love/crush... while Lois is endgame. Before Smallville began, that canon was set. Thus, that Lana was the first couple interest of Clark and that Lois later came onboard has nothing to do with a "television show starting with one love interest and then ending with another". That's simply untrue. The comic canon was ALREADY established. I think this comes down to me looking at comics as driving the other media. Not the other way around, as you appear to be suggesting (especially since based on timelines it just isn't true). The ONLY time media might have had an influence on the comics is Lois and Clark marrying - but even then they wrote it into the comics first. Going to read your other post, :) Link to comment
phoenics January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 (edited) quarks - with respect to your last post.. I think the time travel aspect of the show changes things a bit. I think that the show could very easily consider Barry/Iris endgame, but still explore alternate stories where the audience knows the show's pov is that Barry/Iris as endgame, but Barry has other relationships due to an altered timeline. I'm kinda expecting that actually - it's part of the reason why I think the show is being so firm in presenting Iris/Barry as endgame. That's so that any altered timelines illustrate how any other Barry pairing won't be endgame. I think that's how we can get to "unexpectedness" and things seemingly up in the air - without abandoning the comic canon of Barry/Iris. Also - I have to put in the optics here: a show casting it's first black woman to play the lead role and the love interest of an iconic character - that's a big deal. It's never ever been done. It would be really bad optics to run over that. That's why Geoff Johns and other producers told CP to avoid social media (in order to protect her from the hate - which came out as soon as she was cast). It's also why they've tried so hard to bat down as many Iris and WestAllen criticisms as possible in the writing. I think they expected each and every last one of them. Laurel/Oliver and Lana/Clark were good examples of what not to do, lol. Iris is a damsel! Iris punches Girder and then shoots the Clock King Iris only cares about Flash! Iris writes the blog to give Barry hope and show him he wasn't crazy all those years he believed in the impossible. There are more - but you get my point. They know. They know the kind of scrutiny and criticism Iris and as a result Iris/Barry will get. And of course there will be fans who just prefer to see a couple grow onscreen (like Felicity and Oliver) rather than the best friends becoming more when one pines (like Lois and Clark)... that's normal I think with regard to shipping... but I think the writers are up to the challenge of winning (reasonable) folks over. Some folks will never be won over - shipping aside. But maybe some from the show read this board - maybe they will listen to our pleas for more development for Iris and not to just leave her out there ... I hope her upcoming story will be that additional development for us. Edited January 26, 2015 by phoenics 2 Link to comment
Trini January 26, 2015 Author Share January 26, 2015 So I'm going to touch on a small piece of this lovely discussion: It's not really equal when it comes to comparing The Flash to Lois & Clark (the shows themselves, not how they're related to the comics canon), only because one show has one lead and the other had two. And with Lois & Clark, the relationship between the leads was a main theme. It's there in the title. So Lois got way more development, screentime, and purpose than Iris has now (or will ever get, since the show revolves around Barry). 2 Link to comment
phoenics January 26, 2015 Share January 26, 2015 That's true Trini... although Candice Patton is the female lead on The Flash. But I agree with you there on how we can't expect Iris to be like Lois was on L&C - because that was a different show - although I do really truly hope and wish that they give Iris and Barry stories like in the comics where Iris routinely worked with Barry to solve crimes... similarly to Lois and Clark, actually... 3 Link to comment
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