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32 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Apparently Kripke told Jensen he liked the ending and it made sense, and Jared liked it, so I still reckon a rehash of 5.22 🤮

I have never seen an actual quote from Kripke regarding the ending other than(and I paraphrase) All shows come to an end and that he is proud of the show, the actors, the fans and the ideas that the show led to for him, personally.

The only other reference to Kripke, was Jensen Ackles saying he sought clarity and said Kripke thought the ending was ok.

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5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can see Sam moving on.  We've seen him do it when Dean went to purgatory.  Sam didn't even look for Dean.

That was written completely out of character, though. 

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So, if you tie all this together and combine it with Jack's return...

Amara absorbs, not Sam or Dean, but Chuck. Because of new canon or something otherwise improbable. This allows them to coexist, yet, neutralizes their powers, while maintaining balance.

Jack, our hero, becomes the new acting God and brings paradise to Earth, as invisioned by Castiel. 

Sam and Dean have been reduced to sub-class heroes. Further rendered insignificant, as Jack has destroyed all evil. Sam and Dean part ways, which satisfies the "some" sad. Everyone lives which satisfies the happy. Sam finds love and life with Eileen. Dean drives off in the Impala with Castiel by his side to go to the beach.

Edited by Shannonsspirit
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5 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

So, if you tie all this together and combine it with Jack's return...

Amara absorbs, not Sam or Dean, but Chuck. Because of new canon or something otherwise improbable. This allows them to coexist, yet, neutralizes their powers, while maintaining balance.

Jack, our hero, becomes the new acting God and brings paradise to Earth, as invisioned by Castiel. 

Sam and Dean have been reduced to sub-class heroes. Further rendered insignificant, as Jack has destroyed all evil. Sam and Dean part ways, which satisfies the "some" sad. Everyone lives which satisfies the happy. Sam finds love and life with Eileen. Dean drives off in the Impala with Castiel by his side to go to the beach.

I can see this happening but I would dislike everything about it.

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3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can see this happening but I would dislike everything about it.

Yes, me too. Although when I think of all the missed opportunities, botched explanations, Chuck-blaming, Jack-worshipping,  nonsense of the last 3 years...Combine that with the unimaginative loosely constructed and shallow story telling and diminished characters arcs, while adding the need to "satisfy," this what we are left with.

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2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I can see this happening but I would dislike everything about it.

Every. Single. Thing.

It would shit all over the legacy of the show, completely and utterly.

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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It would shit all over the legacy of the show, completely and utterly.

So basically perfectly in line with the Dabb years as they have been so far.

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On 11/25/2019 at 1:47 PM, juppschmitz said:

I hatehatehate asparagus! And here in Germany in the summertime they have those roadside foodstalls selling both strawberries (yum) and asparagus (yuck). How dare they!

Agg! My husband is always asking me if I want asparagus. No. I do not. I will eat it because it's good for me. But DO NOT expect me to look forward to it, to like it, or to be happy about it.

This is also how I feel about the episodes this season.

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About Dabb and the 30% liking the ending--he was joking(badly perhaps)...he admitted so later.   He said he wants to please as many as possible but knows he won't please everyone in the diverse fan base.

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1 hour ago, Jakes said:

About Dabb and the 30% liking the ending--he was joking(badly perhaps)...he admitted so later.   He said he wants to please as many as possible but knows he won't please everyone in the diverse fan base.

Maybe, it would have been best to just write the story, flowing naturally to an organic conclusion. Without trying to please anyone, the ending would be what it is and no one would question it. Not everyone would like it, perhaps; but it would make sense.

I didn't see good story telling last season. Other than Jack being sick, sicker, dying, dead, in danger of losing his soul, may have lost his soul, ad infinitum, while Sam, Dean and Cas were wringing their hands, nothing happened and no character or story was developed. Additionally, Jack repeatedly saved the day.

So, when Dabb references happy viewers, to whom is he referring? When he feels the need to tease what "fan favorite" is returning after x number of years, is it about the story? No, it's about Kevin, Becky, Ketch, Eileen, Lilith etc. and anyone else they can bring back that doesn't move the story forward, because they die or disappear within the blink of an eye, while furthering the ridiculous retcon of Chuck. Why the retcon of Chuck? So, Jack can replace him as God and make paradise on Earth.

This isn't Sam and Dean's story, anymore. They are aging heroes reduced to running in a maze "until they become boring or die." This is a meta extravaganza to reduce the importance of Sam and Dean, rendering everything they did over the years meaningless, as well as, nullifying major themes. 

Furthermore, the stories are trite, without nuance or substance because Chuck is a bad writer. Apparently, this will continue until...Jack Returns.

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Did you guys know that before Dabb became a co-writer on Supernatural that his work was limited to writing graphic novels? Maybe this explains the shallow stories, lack of character development and stilted dialogue. I always wondered why Jack never spoke more than 5 words in one sentence. "I can raise the pencil. I want to be good." You can only fit so many words in a comic book bubble.

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9 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Did you guys know that before Dabb became a co-writer on Supernatural that his work was limited to writing graphic novels? Maybe this explains the shallow stories, lack of character development and stilted dialogue. I always wondered why Jack never spoke more than 5 words in one sentence. "I can raise the pencil. I want to be good." You can only fit so many words in a comic book bubble.

Dabb also wrote the comics and they were very similar to what we see on screen.

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38 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb also wrote the comics and they were very similar to what we see on screen.

I thought graphic novels and comic books were synonymous.  Yes, that is why it feels like a comic book.

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51 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I thought graphic novels and comic books were synonymous.  Yes, that is why it feels like a comic book.

I believe she means the Supernatural comics.

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On 11/27/2019 at 12:01 AM, Shannonsspirit said:

Unfortunately, I think the only sector he can be absolutely sure of satisfying is the Jack enthusiasts. They would love to see him as The Hero, and are the ones who embraced incongruously evil Chuck as "The Big Bad. They aren't old enough to have watched the show unfold over the years and most likely do not have a feel for the story or primary characters.

Additionally, I think the long term audience wants two entirely different endings. The brothers to die, guns blazing or to live in peace and happiness.  

On 11/27/2019 at 1:23 PM, Jakes said:

About Dabb and the 30% liking the ending--he was joking(badly perhaps)...he admitted so later.   He said he wants to please as many as possible but knows he won't please everyone in the diverse fan base.

I think the folks they are writing to are the binge watchers.  Those that watch the show in one sitting and don't have any patience to wait for the new season or just joined in the last few and caught up by binge watching.

If you aren't looking for the details, it might be satisfying.  For me the worst part is that I no longer look forward to speculating what might happen.  It use to be fun but now it just feels like a waste of time.  Sam hasn't grown any lately, Dean's character is a shadow of what it once was.  I started out as a brother's fan.  I didn't start watching until the end of season 3.  Then I watched season 4 live.  I admit I like Dean more than Sam as I relate to him more but I wanted a strong send off.  I guess I'm now joining the binge watchers on the last season.

I don't think I will feel much for their ending because God as the big Bad is a major fail for me.  I wish Chuck was the AU Character and that the real God shows up at the end.  But that would mean that they could surprise us and well they haven't lived up to that in a very long time.

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17 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I think the folks they are writing to are the binge watchers.  Those that watch the show in one sitting and don't have any patience to wait for the new season or just joined in the last few and caught up by binge watching.

If you aren't looking for the details, it might be satisfying.  For me the worst part is that I no longer look forward to speculating what might happen.  It use to be fun but now it just feels like a waste of time.  Sam hasn't grown any lately, Dean's character is a shadow of what it once was.  I started out as a brother's fan.  I didn't start watching until the end of season 3.  Then I watched season 4 live.  I admit I like Dean more than Sam as I relate to him more but I wanted a strong send off.  I guess I'm now joining the binge watchers on the last season.

I don't think I will feel much for their ending because God as the big Bad is a major fail for me.  I wish Chuck was the AU Character and that the real God shows up at the end.  But that would mean that they could surprise us and well they haven't lived up to that in a very long time.

Wow, you expressed so many similar sentiments. 

The Chuck retcon into an evil, bored manipulative writer completely pulled me from the show. Not just the meta aspect, but the disregard for the creator of human souls and the destruction of free will. These major themes have underlined Supernatural and were destroyed in the blink of an eye. I, too, looked for theory and explanations of an extended test or an imposter.

Yet, when I consider how Sam and Dean's characters and stories are so  weak or sidelined, in the past year or two, I realized I know longer engage.

I can see the teen and tween hyper watchers cramming season upon season into a month, alternating between the play and fast forward buttons. They don't feel the nuance or track the evolution. The brain can't process it before moving on to the next episode, season. So for them it is "big bad" and big thrills. Throw in young Jack with his awesome comic book super powers and put the old men on the bench.

With the change in lore and canon, explained away because writers lie, anything can happen. Therefore, nothing matters as all becomes disconnected and meaningless.

Sad way to go. 

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On 11/30/2019 at 11:39 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I think they write for the squee groups on twitter who are always wanting tissues while they watch. So annoying. 

Omg. I know. A couple weeks ago, I inadvertantly entered a live episode discussion, rather than a post episode discussion and they were actually asking one another to pass the tissues around. They were also asking others to pass the popcorn. Who yacks away during an episode missing all the finer points? Kids. 

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2 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Who yacks away during an episode missing all the finer points?

Probably the same people who sit behind you and talk during a concert. I always wonder why someone would pay $60 - $100 or more for a ticket just to yack throughout the concert. Sadly, this has happened to us enough that I actually look for tickets with no seats in the row behind us when I buy tickets.

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11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Probably the same people who sit behind you and talk during a concert. I always wonder why someone would pay $60 - $100 or more for a ticket just to yack throughout the concert. Sadly, this has happened to us enough that I actually look for tickets with no seats in the row behind us when I buy tickets.

Yes. We do the same. It's the "fan" thing. Fans are only interested in one thing, being fans. Well, that and "look at me being a fan." Lol. Which is actually the same thing.  

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On 11/27/2019 at 4:18 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

Maybe, it would have been best to just write the story, flowing naturally to an organic conclusion. Without trying to please anyone, the ending would be what it is and no one would question it. Not everyone would like it, perhaps; but it would make sense.

I didn't see good story telling last season. Other than Jack being sick, sicker, dying, dead, in danger of losing his soul, may have lost his soul, ad infinitum, while Sam, Dean and Cas were wringing their hands, nothing happened and no character or story was developed. Additionally, Jack repeatedly saved the day.

So, when Dabb references happy viewers, to whom is he referring? When he feels the need to tease what "fan favorite" is returning after x number of years, is it about the story? No, it's about Kevin, Becky, Ketch, Eileen, Lilith etc. and anyone else they can bring back that doesn't move the story forward, because they die or disappear within the blink of an eye, while furthering the ridiculous retcon of Chuck. Why the retcon of Chuck? So, Jack can replace him as God and make paradise on Earth.

This isn't Sam and Dean's story, anymore. They are aging heroes reduced to running in a maze "until they become boring or die." This is a meta extravaganza to reduce the importance of Sam and Dean, rendering everything they did over the years meaningless, as well as, nullifying major themes. 

Furthermore, the stories are trite, without nuance or substance because Chuck is a bad writer. Apparently, this will continue until...Jack 

Edited by Castiels Cat

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I can’t wait to see Adam.  The boys got some ‘splaining to do. Death took out Sam: I get it, pick one.  But then they released LUCIFER.   Why not ask Chuck for Adam back in S11?   Just saying, if Adam is bitter, he’s earned it. 

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3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Wasn't there a spoiler about an episode that is supposed to take place in the bunker that is five stories within a story?

From this interview with Andrew Dabb:

Quote

In the back half of the season, our guys are going to uncover some secrets about the bunker, that will kind of allow us to do five episodes in one.

This is the only mention I could find about it.

Now that we know that the key to Death's library is somewhere in the bunker, I was thinking that maybe this episode has something to do with that?

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Kind of sucks that Dean killed himself in s13 to find the ghosts only and up in Death's library when all he had to do was rummage around the bunker....lol.

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4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Kind of sucks that Dean killed himself in s13 to find the ghosts only and up in Death's library when all he had to do was rummage around the bunker....lol.

Kind of like Crowley, Castiel and everyone else running around for an entire season trying to find Purgatory when there's a perfectly good door to it in Hell--right near Bobby's cell, as a matter of fact.  Not to mention rogue reapers who apparently knew about it all along.

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12 hours ago, Bergamot said:

This is the only mention I could find about it.

Yes that was the one I was thinking of, thanks.  I couldn't remember exactly what it was just something about the bunker and the about five things. 

I wonder if it might be a glimpse of everyone's potential endings. 

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13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yes that was the one I was thinking of, thanks.  I couldn't remember exactly what it was just something about the bunker and the about five things. 

I wonder if it might be a glimpse of everyone's potential endings. 

And then they can run a campaign of "vote for your favorite ending" on Twitter, say the ending they already wrote won by a landslide which proves that the majority of fans wanted that ending, and answer any complaints with "we gave you what you wanted."

Edited by ahrtee
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7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yes that was the one I was thinking of, thanks.  I couldn't remember exactly what it was just something about the bunker and the about five things. 

I wonder if it might be a glimpse of everyone's potential endings. 

Probably. Which I dread.

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12 hours ago, Bergamot said:

From this interview with Andrew Dabb:

This is the only mention I could find about it.

Now that we know that the key to Death's library is somewhere in the bunker, I was thinking that maybe this episode has something to do with that?

Maybe they could each read their death story...

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1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Maybe they could each read their death story...

Hmmm... if Chuck is writing drafts endings might be changing...

I was thinking that this season there have been mentions of Death, her library,  Michael and now next week... Adam! This of course makes me think of Death's prophecy of Dean's death written in every book save one that the archangel Michael uses his body as a vessel to burn this world. If Adam is out where is Michael?

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On 12/6/2019 at 6:38 PM, SueB said:


I can’t wait to see Adam.  The boys got some ‘splaining to do. Death took out Sam: I get it, pick one.  But then they released LUCIFER.   Why not ask Chuck for Adam back in S11?   Just saying, if Adam is bitter, he’s earned it. 

Because they had their hands full with the world ending. ????

I never get the Adam love. The ghoul version was the one that they actually bonded with. Their actual brother was a jerk and was out for his own interests. They had no relationship with him.

However Bringing him back is more than fan service because it means Michael is out and about and that interests me for obvious reasons... 

Hint loads of references this season... Michael + Dean + Death +  Death's library = is Death's prophecy going to happen with this Michael?!

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3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Kind of like Crowley, Castiel and everyone else running around for an entire season trying to find Purgatory when there's a perfectly good door to it in Hell--right near Bobby's cell, as a matter of fact.  Not to mention rogue reapers who apparently knew about it all along.

Rogue reapers! Gotta love the Nepotism Duo. Five episodes in one... that does not sound mytharc to me. That sounds like everyone touches an artifact and has an adventure. Dean, Sam, Cas, Jack and Eileen equals five.... However they could be searching for the key because maybe Sam has stopped having visions... or maybe Michael is whispering to Dean or Dean is seeing John and they are looking for the key.

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2 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Maybe they could each read their death story...

Dean supposedly only had/has one death story that tied with Michael.    And given the volumes and volumes of stories that are in that library how would they ever know which was the "REAL"  true death? 

I do kind of wonder with OGMichael/Adam coming back if Dean might end up making another Michael deal?  Unless of course Chuck has rewritten all of these books which...well then fuck it all in the end.  Sigh.....:(

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10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean supposedly only had/has one death story that tied with Michael.    And given the volumes and volumes of stories that are in that library how would they ever know which was the "REAL"  true death? 

I do kind of wonder with OGMichael/Adam coming back if Dean might end up making another Michael deal?  Unless of course Chuck has rewritten all of these books which...well then fuck it all in the end.  Sigh.....:(

As I remember it she said all of your books have been rewritten with the same ending except one. That ending was thst he is possessed by Michael and burns the world.the one she shows him was one in which he was possessed and locked in a Malek box at the bottom of the ocean which is why he built the Malek box presumably. So the one she showed him was the only way that the world does not burn.

Dean could still end up in the Malak box. It was made to hold Michael not super special Jack.

Edited by Castiels Cat

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3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

As I remember it she said all of your books have been rewritten with the same ending except one. That ending was thst he is possessed by Michael and burns the world.the one she shows him was one in which he was possessed and locked in a Malek box at the bottom of the ocean which is why he built the Malek box presumably. So the one she showed him was the only way that the world does not burn.

Dean could still end up in the Malak box. It was made to hold Michael not super special Jack.

Billy said "They all end the same way now. With the archangel Michael escaping your mind and using you as his vessel to burn down this world."

And I doubt Michael will be locked in his mind again. But they can still retconned it. 🙄

Edited by starfishka
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Based on the puffy jacket on Kim, I think this is a nightshoot set picture and Jack is back on the show in EP 12. 

If the date is accurate, I bet he’s in a final scene.  

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43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2019/12/10/supernatural-spoilers-season-15-episode-8-jake-abel-returns-adam-michael/

Sneak peek.

If Alex has a similair contract to Misha, this probably means we are stuck with Jack in every ep until the finale.   I'm guessing the focus will now be on him for the rest of the series

It's a shame that I can't figure out how to do sound effects, because I just blew a big old raspberry

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ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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