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S01.E10: 10


Tara Ariano
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This might be a minor thing at this point, but Alison confirmed that Noah fingered her after the town hall meeting from episode 3. That was clearly in Noah's memory, but not in hers.

 

I think what you're saying is that because it wasn't in Alison's filmic memory, it wasn't in her memory. But that's not a warranted assumption.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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This might be a minor thing at this point, but Alison confirmed that Noah fingered her after the town hall meeting from episode 3. That was clearly in Noah's memory, but not in hers.

 

 

I think what you're saying is that because it wasn't in Alison's filmic memory, it wasn't in her memory. But that's not a warranted assumption.

 

In that scene when she was recounting that moment to Phoebe, she was saying how Noah really LOOKED at her--and I presume felt like he could really see her soul or something--some feeling she kept trying to recapture. Interesting that what was a mental connection to her was a physical connection to him.

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This might be a minor thing at this point, but Alison confirmed that Noah fingered her after the town hall meeting from episode 3. That was clearly in Noah's memory, but not in hers.

 

They confirmed this in the following episode 4, when Alison herself said it. Some memories are shared, even of they were shown by one side.

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That is pretty typical behavior when leaving a marriage. The spouses leaving like to rewrite history.

That's why I like this show. I feel it's showing a lot of the reality of affairs and divorce. My own experience with my marriage dissolving and other friends of mine who have gone through divorces shows that there is a "script" that almost everyone follows.

All the cliches about affairs and divorces are cliches because they happen so much.

i agree, i realized that also. people leaving always make it seem like they had it worse than they really did, affair or not. it's like "i wasn't happy" just isn't enough, so they need more reasons to justify what they did.

i must say, it was clear from the start to me that noah & helen had a bad marriage. it was all smiles and peachy but rotten from the inside. you could feel the disconnect between them... it was so weird. with alison & cole, i feel like they had a bit better marriage than helen & noah did.

the one cliche this show does NOT follow is the one that says that the affair partners rarely end up in a relationship that lasts. all of the other cliches are present... including noah's inital reaction and "she didn't mean anything to me" when he confessed everything.

yeah, it's very realistic when it comes to a divorce and an affair... also, that helen's scene when she begged noah to come back home & she was like "i could change and be better" was so heartbreaking and so real.

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i must say, it was clear from the start to me that noah & helen had a bad marriage. it was all smiles and peachy but rotten from the inside. you could feel the disconnect between them... it was so weird. with alison & cole, i feel like they had a bit better marriage than helen & noah did.

 

 I feel differently about this.  I kind of liked the banter between Noah and Helen early on, and felt it portrayed a marriage that was in the 'ebb' stage of the ebb and flow that all relationships experience.  But we did see that Noah, at least, was restless, who knows why?  Men of a certain age fearing death or old age, or WHATEVER.  And somehow sex fixes all of that.

 

When Helen asked him to come back and was crying and he held her and he asked if she had just rubbed snot on his shirt and she said "Do you find that hot?"  I was chuckling because that showed they still had some connection and affection for each other.   

But that got trumped by the Affair.

 

I'm wondering if the Romeo and Juliet that Noah was teaching in an earlier episode is a metaphor for what may be coming.   That was a love too hot to survive...

Edited by cardigirl
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I'm wondering if the Romeo and Juliet that Noah was teaching in an earlier episode is a metaphor for what may be coming. That was a love to hot to survive...

you mean, it might be a metaphor for noah & alison? as in, they may not end up together in the end of all ends, lol? i don't know. honestly, i didn't expect them to get together at all in the end. i really thought alison would stay with cole, for some reason.

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In what ways are Noah and Helen's mom similar, as observed by Helen in the van? Selfish, ... - ?

      I didn't get that either. In almost every way, he turns into her father. I don't really see what he and the mother have in common.

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But that got trumped by the Affair.

 

When his agent asked if he misses Helen, Noah thought of Alison. Noah's marriage failed a while ago, I don't know why he thought going back to Helen was a good idea. Alison was more honest with Cole, she was not interested in fixing the broken marriage anymore because really she'd rather be alone, if she can't have Noah. 

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When his agent asked if he misses Helen, Noah thought of Alison. Noah's marriage failed a while ago, I don't know why he thought going back to Helen was a good idea. Alison was more honest with Cole, she was not interested in fixing the broken marriage anymore because really she'd rather be alone, if she can't have Noah.

i think he went back to her out of fear. i feel like he was afraid of stepping into the unknown? he went into full panic mode & tried to fix things with all "she didn't mean anything to me" speech. he was probably in denial because he realized he might be losing a lot & he might just not be ready.

then he saw alison again and... it happened what happened.

i felt like alison and cole had more honest marriage, that's why she was more direct and honest with him than noah was with helen. with noah, i always felt like he was afraid to tell his real thoughts and feelings to helen, always trying not to hurt or disappoint her.

from the episode 1, i didn't view those marriages as happy marriages. even tho that's what the story tries to tell us, that both noah and alison were happy in their unions before they met each other.

Edited by minimilah
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When his agent asked if he misses Helen, Noah thought of Alison. Noah's marriage failed a while ago, I don't know why he thought going back to Helen was a good idea. Alison was more honest with Cole, she was not interested in fixing the broken marriage anymore because really she'd rather be alone, if she can't have Noah.

 

Marriages have survived affairs and even thrived after them.  I think Noah didn't have time to miss Helen, being so busy with other women and all. Ahem.  

 

Maybe the writers ARE really trying to say that Noah and Alison should have been together all along, but I believe that Noah and Helen's marriage was salvageable.   It takes real work and commitment to go back.  It's hard.  It's not easy.  There is baggage.  It's easier to be in a new relationship, with less baggage built up.   Many people find that the reasons they leave a spouse were not that great of reasons anyway.  It's not like there was abuse, or alcoholism, or illness to deal with in Noah and Helen's marriage.   And sometimes it's worth the hard work.  

 

I hope that Helen's character is shown as happy by series end.  To find someone who can love her fully.  That would be awesome.

 

you mean, it might be a metaphor for noah & alison? as in, they may not end up together in the end of all ends, lol? i don't know. honestly, i didn't expect them to get together at all in the end. i really thought alison would stay with cole, for some reason.

 

Yes, something like that.  In Romeo and Juliet, the main characters  are impetuous and cannot seem to live without each other.  They have no patience to wait.  This desperation leads to the destruction of themselves as well as their families.  So, I'm wondering if that is hanging over our 'heroes.'

 

And we see Noah and Alison together and happy, but it could still be the 'honeymoon' stage.  Noah is still Noah after all.

Edited by cardigirl
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It was a glorious institution of the NYC public education system - no longer in existence by 2012.   It's the airless room where Noah was sitting out his time, writing his best-seller, waiting for his disciplinary proceedings to proceed. And yeah, 2-year, paid stints in that room were quite usual.  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126055157

 

Ah, thank you for the explanation. When Helen said rubber room, I thought it was some kinky sex club Noah had joined. But now I'm wondering, why is Noah facing disciplinary actions?? Was it because he was screwing a woman on school grounds earlier in the episode? 

 

Helen's mom hired a private detective who uncovered that video of Noah and Scotty. Only then does Helen find out that Scotty was the baby father and she wants to press charges. Whitney hears this and runs to the ranch to warn Scotty.

 

I hadn't realized Noah didn't tell Helen that Scotty impregnated their underage daughter. Did he not think that would be information his wife would want to know? He is infuriating. The PI uncovered so many of his secrets and Helen still wants him back? I just can't wrap my head around that.

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In what ways are Noah and Helen's mom similar, as observed by Helen in the van? Selfish, ... - ?

 

Silent resentment, I figured, I think  Helen sees herself as the exceptional one in the relationship to this point, the one bringing in all the money and security even if via her inherited wealth, Noah just attached himself to her to access that wealth and status that big family.

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Was it because he was screwing a woman on school grounds earlier in the episode?

 

Yes. They were seen by a janitor, who (presumably) turned him in. Just another way real life is unlike a porno!

 

Although I'm a little curious as to the punishment the teacher whom he was screwing received -- she was a teacher too, right?

Edited by attica
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The way Noah recalls his first meetings with Alison doesn’t make sense if they are married. He called her "bad news" and doesn’t seem see her as anything but a vampy, trampy piece of ass in his versions, with no other qualities besides sexiness and wanting to jump on his dick. Is the story of how you met your wife/the love of your life really going to sound like it should began with "Dear Penthouse, Before I never thought your letters were true…"

 

Also, this has been bothering me, but on one of the episode’s previouslys they made a point of showing a clip of Bruce being assigned babysitting duties by Helen. I assumed along with Martin’s hatred of him and him complimenting Whitney’s ass that they were setting him up to be a Chester. Now I’m wondering what the point was.

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My bigger issue is that Treem et al are *telling* me this THING between Allison/Noah is genuine, real, "the most powerful erotic moment ever experienced". NOPE. NEIN. NOLO. I did not and do not see it.

 

We have people like Phoebe and Max saying it isn't real, it's temporary, yet we have a furture narrative saying Yes it IS you just don't even KNOW. They are married, they have a kid, they have a lot of money,  your puny value judgements mean nothing to truest real erotic lasting love.

 

Come the entire fuck on.

 

Yeah, when Alison told Phoebe that Noah was the most erotic moment evah and she's been trying to get that back ever since, my eyes rolled so far up in my head I could look down and see my own ass.  I guess thinking erotic = tru wub forevah is indicative of the silly immature me, Me, ME bubble that Alison lives in. Because I'm pretty sure anyone who's lived actual life in the real world knows that that erotic doesn't really last forever or mean lasting love. Its fucking infatuation, literally. That line was so lame it made me cringe for the writers of this show.

 

Regarding the beginning of what we saw as Noah's Festival of Fuckery & Fun, when he sees that young lady at the pool, it's clear they had some sort of sexual liaison, and yet didn't he say in a previous episode that he never cheated on Helen?  I thought he told Alison that. So if he bumps into pool girl within the 4 months after he separated from Helen it appears he did cheat on Helen at some point with this other woman. So yeah, Noah, fuck off you lying sack of shit.

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I feel differently about this.  I kind of liked the banter between Noah and Helen early on, and felt it portrayed a marriage that was in the 'ebb' stage of the ebb and flow that all relationships experience.  But we did see that Noah, at least, was restless, who knows why?  Men of a certain age fearing death or old age, or WHATEVER.  And somehow sex fixes all of that.

 

Same here. They seemed to have a nice rhythm and some even some comedic timing (like when they were having sex and one of their kids called out to them and Noah asked Alison when the kids would be gone and she immediately said “12 years”). The fact that they were having sleepy morning sex with 4 kids in the house already puts them ahead (in certain ways) of couples that age.

 

I'm wondering if the Romeo and Juliet that Noah was teaching in an earlier episode is a metaphor for what may be coming.   That was a love too hot to survive...

 

I think it was a love too immature and fickle to survive (just an hour before meeting Juliet Romeo is pining for the great love of his life; not to mention Juliet was 13 and Romeo not much older). R&J is foreshadowing, I think – Noah and Alison’s immaturity will be what does them in. It's like they say: if someone leaves their spouse to bang you, all you win is someone who cheats on their spouse.

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Yeah, when Alison told Phoebe that Noah was the most erotic moment evah and she's been trying to get that back ever since, my eyes rolled so far up in my head I could look down and see my own ass.  I guess thinking erotic = tru wub forevah is indicative of the silly immature me, Me, ME bubble that Alison lives in. Because I'm pretty sure anyone who's lived actual life in the real world knows that that erotic doesn't really last forever or mean lasting love. Its fucking infatuation, literally. That line was so lame it made me cringe for the writers of this show.

 

Regarding the beginning of what we saw as Noah's Festival of Fuckery & Fun, when he sees that young lady at the pool, it's clear they had some sort of sexual liaison, and yet didn't he say in a previous episode that he never cheated on Helen?  I thought he told Alison that. So if he bumps into pool girl within the 4 months after he separated from Helen it appears he did cheat on Helen at some point with this other woman. So yeah, Noah, fuck off you lying sack of shit.

 

Werd sauce to all of this. I wonder what will happen to them when they do get into the boredom stage. I hope they don't last. Couldn't have happened to better people. 

 

The other thing that bugs me with Noah, and this was something a poster pointed out on another forum, is that Noah does all of these misdeeds and is ultimately rewarded for it. He gets to fuck woman after woman. He uses his disciplinary time to write the book that becomes his biggest success, and gets Alison even though he's being a massive dick to Whitney. For what it's worth though, Noah never slept with the woman from the first episode. They were flirtatious until he put his wedding ring on, then she bolted. Still, it was obvious that he was ready to cheat on Helen.

 

I wonder what Helen is really like because I imagine that a lot of the emasculating she does of him is him projecting his issues onto her and using that as an excuse to nail Alison.

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Yeah, when Alison told Phoebe that Noah was the most erotic moment evah and she's been trying to get that back ever since, my eyes rolled so far up in my head I could look down and see my own ass.  I guess thinking erotic = tru wub forevah is indicative of the silly immature me, Me, ME bubble that Alison lives in. Because I'm pretty sure anyone who's lived actual life in the real world knows that that erotic doesn't really last forever or mean lasting love. Its fucking infatuation, literally. That line was so lame it made me cringe for the writers of this show.

In addition to the eye roll, I also wondered how many times the then teen-aged Alison saw Titanic.

Jack + Rose 4ever

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The way Noah recalls his first meetings with Alison doesn’t make sense if they are married. He called her "bad news" and doesn’t seem see her as anything but a vampy, trampy piece of ass in his versions, with no other qualities besides sexiness and wanting to jump on his dick. 

 

She was bad news because he was married and he couldn't stop thinking about her. Yeah, she wanted him but so did he, he was wanking in the shower with thoughts of her swirling in his head. Also in one of the early episodes he says to her "whatever darkness you think you're hiding is written all over your face. And you know what? I like it".  His recollection of their second encounter should be taken with a pinch of salt, exactly how vampy was she when it was her son's birthday? But they did connect and spent a day at Block Island before they slept together for the first time, so she indeed had other qualities he liked besides just jumping on his dick. 

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Regarding the beginning of what we saw as Noah's Festival of Fuckery & Fun, when he sees that young lady at the pool, it's clear they had some sort of sexual liaison,

 

That was the girl who sort of hit on Noah in the first episode.  She encountered him at the poolside shower rinsing off after swimming and then came down and sat next to him outside, just as he was putting his ring back on.  So he knew she was interested , but when she saw the ring, she immediately apologized and left.  

 

So that's why the whole "I'm separated" thing made the difference (apparently her fiance did not).

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I wonder what Helen is really like because I imagine that a lot of the emasculating she does of him is him projecting his issues onto her and using that as an excuse to nail Alison.

me too. i feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding & miscommunication between them. noah wanted out of that marriage, he just looked for a woman who was good enough for an affair & leaving helen.

i also don't see the true love between noah & alison. i do feel like they're meant to be together... like they compliment each other well, they simply found that connection between their darkest parts... but that's not how i'd define love. i have a feeling that they have a very shallow relationship mostly based on their inner darkness & desire, incredible passion and sex. & i also think they don't want to deepen their relationship, they don't want to "know" each other... i don't know how to explain it. it's like they chose to live in that shallow relationship driven by passion and they don't really want or need more.

and i do want them to stay together just because i think they'll hurt any other person they might end up with. with them together, the rest of the world is safe lol.

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i also don't see the true love between noah & alison. i do feel like they're meant to be together... like they compliment each other well, they simply found that connection between their darkest parts... but that's not how i'd define love. i have a feeling that they have a very shallow relationship mostly based on their inner darkness & desire, incredible passion and sex. & i also think they don't want to deepen their relationship, they don't want to "know" each other... i don't know how to explain it. it's like they chose to live in that shallow relationship driven by passion and they don't really want or need more.

Works for me

 

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In what ways are Noah and Helen's mom similar, as observed by Helen in the van? Selfish, ... - ?

Well yes, particularly in their self-centered disregard of Helen.  Helen had just been hollering about her mother's "Doing whatever the Fuck she wants," without consulting Helen.  Grandma was going full throttle to shape Helen's divorce, against Helen's every wish.  

  

Kinda' like Noah smashing all their lives to bits, without even first telling Helen that he was discontent, and wanted change.  Which Helen discussed in the same arm-waving conversation.

 

In a funny way, both Noah and her mother have overlooked who Helen is.  It was horrible to hear her plead with Noah, asking why he no longer wanted "what I am."  But "what I am" for Helen is not Helen-as-a-person.  It was her money and her status as a mother-of-four.  

  

This Show is relentless in its class fixations.  

Edited by RimaTheBirdGirl
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Helen is like her controlling parents.

 

Even after she begged Noah to come back, showing some vulnerability, at least in Noah's account, it didn't take too long to revert to the raging bitch when he suggested they let it go and she said something like "I don't care what you want, I'm still going to press charges."

 

If she didn't insist on pressing charges, maybe the daughter doesn't run back to the Lockharts and Noah doesn't run into Alison again.

 

 

And everything just turned up roses for Noah until the arrest, didn't it?  He got away from Helen and although Alison didn't take him in at first, he was having the life for a few months.  He got into trouble and went to teacher detention (didn't know there was such a thing) for screwing a fellow teacher on school premises and that gives him the time and focus to finish up his novel, which becomes a boffo hit?

 

So why did he agree to come back home for a time?  He said he didn't miss Helen.  He probably could have boned the PR girl for his agent, could have really exercised his midlife thing.  He seemed to be enjoying himself more than with Alison.  Now with the prospect of money from his book, he could have said "FU" to Helen and the in-laws.

 

Because of the kids?  He didn't think of the kids when he had the affair or decided he needed to leave in the first place.  He had no problems letting Helen and Whitney walk away while he stayed with Alison.

 

You have to wonder what Noah really wants.  Not sure it's Alison either.  In most of his accounts, he's drawn to her for physical reasons, not because she's grieving the loss of her son or anything.  With money and fame, is Alison going to be enough for him?

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With money and fame, is Alison going to be enough for him?

you know, I honestly think she will. even though I wouldn't describe their feelings & connection as love, I think he found in Alison exactly what he needs and what he was looking for.

and I think he got back to Helen out of fear, probably because it wasn't easy to just walk away from the comfort of life with helen & the kids. BUT that moment of initial fear lasted very shortly, he ran back to alison.

I don't think anyone could've prevented his & Alison's relationship. the feelings are just too strong, the desire is too strong... even if that thing didn't happen with Whitney, they would've still ended up together.

they LOOKED at each other and that was IT! it was only a matter of time.

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I forgot to give props to Detective Jefferies for being so damn good with his sneaky investigative skills that he KNEW Noah would try to talk the tow truck driver out of saying anything that he timed the driver to show up at the station wearing a wire! Kudos, Detective Jefferies! You are the true hero of this show, sir. And if by some chance Noah is NOT guilty, well, you're making such a damn good case of circumstantial evidence, that Noah will go away for a long time at this rate anyway. Steven is a lucky man!

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You have to wonder what Noah really wants.  Not sure it's Alison either.  In most of his accounts, he's drawn to her for physical reasons, not because she's grieving the loss of her son or anything.  With money and fame, is Alison going to be enough for him?

 

Noah told Max that "this isn't some mid life crisis bullshit" and after what he's done, should we still question what he really wants? I don't mean to snark, it is a genuine question. This guy has destroyed everything in order to build something new with Alison. At some point we all have to start taking him at his word.

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Noah told Max that "this isn't some mid life crisis bullshit" and after what he's done, should we still question what he really wants?

we should.

didn't max do the same? i'm pretty sure he thought that his situation wasn't a mid - life crisis either. just because noah says it's a real thing... it doesn't mean he will still think the same after 10 years in future or so.

he wouldn't be the first or the last to completely regret everything, eventually. it happens. no one ruins everything for a mid - life crisis, we all think it's a real deal.

and just to be clear, i think noah is definitely soul - mates with alison and should be with her BUT i see why people wonder and question his words. who knows how the story will end.

i have no doubts about alison and her feelings but with noah it's always a little... fishy. i think his charater is just that "expect everything" type of character. unlike alison, who was honest with cole - noah was the one who bullshitted his way through the last days of his marriage.

Edited by minimilah
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Noah told Max that "this isn't some mid life crisis bullshit" and after what he's done, should we still question what he really wants? I don't mean to snark, it is a genuine question.

 

Well, it depends.  I've personally never heard of someone having some midlife-crisis-bullshit who ran around telling people, "this is totally midlife-crisis-bullshit!"  Just like people in denial are not necessarily aware that they are in denial.  In Noah's version he's drawn to her darkness, by his own admission. 

 

 

 

This guy has destroyed everything in order to build something new with Alison. At some point we all have to start taking him at his word.

 

He destroyed everything in his life, but he was also moving quite happily on with multiple partners in the aftermath, suggesting that perhaps it wasn't Alison as much as it was ennui.   Even if he has a genuine love for Alison that will last the rest of his life, I think Noah was dissatisfied with his life, in part because of a life crisis and I think he had some self-loathing issues that he was taking out on Helen.  He was a little grossed out by himself, always taking Bruce's money to clothe his kids, etc.  

 

I don't know that just because someone believes they understand their own motivation, that they necessarily really do.  

 

I think Noah and Alison both had their own reasons for wanting to blow up their lives.  

 

Plus, I think he kept assigning his own insecurities to Helen's view of him, when it was really Noah's view of himself, while with Helen, that became the problem.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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I think Noah and Alison both had their own reasons for wanting to blow up their lives.

THIS. they wanted out, they wanted a change, they were missing SOMETHING... that they found with each other.

i get confused when i read about this show & how noah and alison never wanted to stray from their happy marriages... i just don't see those happy marriages. i think they wanted to stray but they were waiting for the right person. just like noah said - he wanted to cheat on helen many times but couldn't convince himself that it was worth it. alison became someone who was definitely worth it. neither noah or alison didn't bother to fix their marriages BEFORE anything happened. they were "resisting" for a minute but went all in.

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Putting aside my loathing of the soul mates trope for one second it's depressing since I don't belive that there is one person out there for you. Being a soul mate is something you grow into...

Noah and Alison have been together for less time than their previous marriages. What happens it reaches 7 years and Noah gets bored? We've seen his infantile traits

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I still think scenes with just Noah & Allison are the weakest. They do not hold my attention.  I need to have the other characters on screen.

 

Both Noah and Allison tell us that Helen and Cole begged them to come back.  But we only have their word for that.  Of course they both want to think their spouse can't live without them.

 

I found it interesting that Scotty must not have told Whitney that her dad attacked him at the clinic. She was under the impression till that day at the farmhouse that her parents did not know Scotty was the father.  If she had heard about her dad attacking Scotty she would have known her dad knew about Scotty.

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didn't max do the same? i'm pretty sure he thought that his situation wasn't a mid - life crisis either. just because noah says it's a real thing... it doesn't mean he will still think the same after 10 years in future or so.

 

Putting aside my loathing of the soul mates trope for one second it's depressing since I don't belive that there is one person out there for you. Being a soul mate is something you grow into...

Noah and Alison have been together for less time than their previous marriages. What happens it reaches 7 years and Noah gets bored? We've seen his infantile traits

 

To me the proof of a "soul mate" is not how long a marriage survives. It's whether you'll love someone else like that again. Now, love alone is not enough to sustain a marriage, in this show alone we've seen that in-laws, finance or a tragedy can ruin it. IRL they'd be even more examples. Someone could be married for 50 years and still yearn for a long lost love, but it doesn't mean the spouse is not significant, far from it. He or she met his/her soul mate but it didn't work out for whatever reason and so they built their life with someone else.

Not many people would be as brave as Alison and Noah, to blow up an established life like that.

 

He destroyed everything in his life, but he was also moving quite happily on with multiple partners in the aftermath, suggesting that perhaps it wasn't Alison as much as it was ennui. 

 

 

It was both. Alison was not available at that moment, he had left his wife and was single again. Those encounters had no bearings on his feelings for Alison - she simply wasn't available. He went wild, she went yoga - both were happier than inside the marriages but still dissatisfied somehow until they found each other again. By the way, that's the perpetual state of most single people which is why most of us end up getting married for the wrong reasons. 

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E2

Noah: I got married young. Straight out of college. I had a great girlfriend. She was beautiful.

She was rich. She was kind of artsy, and I wanted to be beautiful, rich, and artsy, so I married her. And I loved her. I should mention that. I did love her.

Alison: And now?

Noah: I still love her. But if I had to do it again I... I'd have waited just a little bit longer... given myself a little more time to... see who I might become.

E4

Noah: I've never cheated on Helen. I mean, it's not that I haven't wanted to. Of course I have. I just...I could never convince myself it was worth it.

E10

Helen: I mean, I thought you chose me for the way I am. You did. You did. You wanted a certain life. And I gave that to you. You were tired of being poor.

If someone had shown me the above dialogue, only, involving two adulterers and the betrayed wife, and further told me that the words spoken were not to be taken as exact, but merely represented what the adulterers remembered that they had thought and felt at the time, I would have said Noah and Helen should not have married, at least not right out of college. (Had I also been told that they would adopt a lifestyle dependent upon Helen's father's money, I would have been far more adamant.) This is not to say they couldn't have done (much) worse, or that their marriage was a failure, just that it was built from outset on a shaky foundation.

Alison: Well, I-I used to think it [marriage] meant there was this one person I would put above anyone else. Above myself. Now I just hope I don't kill him.

(I once read a joint interview of an older married couple who were both successful authors. When the wife was asked if they had ever considered divorce, she replied, "Divorce, no. Murder, yes.")

Per Alison, "love" is not what one feels, it's what one does, and for only as long as one does it. It's the person one chooses to be with, and what one does because of that person. At the end of E10 (which I found puzzling and unsatisfying), Alison and Noah have been together for about three years and appear happier than they were in their marriages. Therefore, by my definition, they "love" each other (so far). How long will it last?

Alison: Look, I'll get you out of this. I promise. Do you believe me?

Will Alison keep her promise and, if it comes to that, put Noah above her by admitting that she was driving the car when it ran down the drug-dealing, statutory rapist? Or will she pull a Daisy Buchanan, and let her lover take the fall for a hit-and-run death, while she takes the money and runs? Or will the colluding, cheating, irresponsible, untrustworthy, fornicators pull a "Law and Order" episode, wherein a married couple beat a murder rap by giving carefully contrived testimony that made it impossible for a jury to find either responsible "beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt"? It's all coming down in S2.

  • Love 2
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The issue I have with the portrayal of the affair is how much in turns into women want twu wuv and men want sex.  Noah’s accounts focus largely on his wild monkey sex with Alison, her willingness to do what he wants and his ability to feel like a big man.  In the episode we get to see hum wielding his magical unicorn dick with several more women.  I have no issue with him screwing whoever he wants to.  He never sowed his wild oats so he’s trying make up for it now.  If it’s consensual, go for it.  It is just interesting to me that his remembrances of his times with Alison rarely focus on emotional bonding.  He understands she’s broken.  He follows that up with trying to get anal.  While she seems to agree that the sex is good, she focuses on whenever he says I love you. 

 

Her going off to heal with her mother made little sense to me.  It just seemed like an odd environment for her.  They have so much of their own emotional baggage it would not be a healing environment.  Noah screwing everything that moves at least made sense.  What I am missing is some sense that he treats Alison in a very different way than he does his one-nighters.  He always comes off very emotionally immature to me, with an “ooh, I’m gonna get some” vibe that doesn’t distinguish whether its meaningful or just playtime.  His characterization just feels really off to me, at least given that Alison falls so in love with him that they end up together.

 

Now as to how Noah of the limited imagination somehow writes the great American novel that multiple publicists should be clamoring for – I think we've all learned that his brilliance was being held back by his bitch of a wife and his ungrateful kids who made it impossible for him to reach his real potential; a.k.a. what Noah wants us to believe.

  • Love 5
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Now, love alone is not enough to sustain a marriage, in this show alone we've seen that in-laws, finance or a tragedy can ruin it.

i agree and disagree with you at the same time, LOL! :) i honestly think noah never loved and felt for helen the way he does for alison. same goes with alison and cole. to me... you don't ever stop loving your soul - mate. i believe we all have that one person we still love. we don't know why or how but... you just cannot forget or get over it.

noah loved helen once, definitely & it was ruined by in - laws, routine & money. alison loved cole and it was ruined by tragedy.

now... noah and alison. many things had the potential to ruin them as a couple but instead - it brought them closer. i feel like their bond is so strong, much stronger than either one of them ever had with their spouses - that it cannot be that easily ruined by tragedy, in - laws and other stuff.

i view noah & alison as soul - mates (i believe in soul - mates, i'm a dreamy romantic like that :P) because, IMO, they would easily survive those things that ruined their 1st marriages. instead of breaking them (for example, if their child died)... i think it would only bring them even closer. maybe i'm wrong?

also, when people doubt noah - i think they doubt his true feelings. he might feel like it's fatal and real now but maybe in 5 years he will be like - "what the hell was i thinking?!" you know? it doesn't matter how long it will last but will he feel the same for her after 10 years in future?

i personally, think he definitely will. but i can see why people doubt him.

oh and also - i agree with you, i think both alison & noah are brave. to me, just falling in love in general & exposing your heart to someone else is a brave thing to do - especially when you're leaving your entire comfortable life behind for someone you only knew for a few months.

  • Love 1
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So one issue I have with Treem's email is this:

 

"One rule we did follow in the memory construction is the MORE STRESSFUL THE SITUATION, THE MORE DIVERGENT THE MEMORY."

 

I always thought the opposite was true (and Sarah Koenig points this out in the 1st episode of "Serial" as well)... that the more mundane a situation or day in your life, the less detailed your memory. Also explains why people can tell you exactly where they were on 9/11, when JFK died (us old folks), etc. When something stressful or tragic happens, your memory of that whole day is likely to be sharper.

 

That said, I'm firmly in the camp of "Show not perfect, me likey anyway". And if S2 is from Helen and Cole's POV that's even better.

  • Love 5
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In what ways are Noah and Helen's mom similar, as observed by Helen in the van? Selfish, ... - ?

Silent resentment paired with grandiose self entitlement. I can see it myself and can see how Helen would see similarities in Noah and her mother's persinalities.

Edited by Chaos Theory
  • Love 4
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Had I also been told that they would adopt a lifestyle dependent upon Helen's father's money, I would have been far more adamant.)

I agree; I don't think there's any part of their life that isn't funded by her parents. Private school for four kids in NYC is $150K/year, give or take. (Tuition at Dalton right now, for example, is about 41K a year.) That brownstone they live in is a couple million, and I'd bet they fronted Helen the cash to start her business. They're not just giving their daughter a lift over a rough spot; they're funding their life. And that can be a bitter pill to swallow for some. (My best friend is the primary breadwinner; she has outearned her husband for their entire relationship. It's the single biggest issue in their marriage.)

I can see why and how both marriages failed. Losing a child is very very hard to overcome. (My childhood friend buried her son last month - born and died within an hour, totally unexpected, just a terrible tragedy.) That, coupled with the growing apart element and the sense of feeling stuck that we know Alison experienced (wanting to be a doctor but not being able to go to med school, longing for a traditional family but Coke's coming with a price, etc) is a recipe for "it's broken but I don't want to fix it."

Also, word to what y'all are saying about West. He must be really charismatic in person. His characters fuck ALL THE TIME. McNulty got laid constantly on The Wire - and attractive women, too! (Noah's women are all more attractive than he is.)

Edited by Empress1
  • Love 2
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I've been a proponent of the "people naturally tend to remember the details that are most consistent with their own needs and character-formations" theory, but I too had a hard time believing that having his family threatened at gunpoint wouldn't be on the top of Noah's mind. I totally get that he'd prefer to see himself as a hero beating up Scotty and only being forced to back off because of Cole--that this scenario is more consistent with the view he has of himself or wants to have of himself--but if Alison's memory has any truth to it (a big if, I suppose), he just couldn't suppress that truth.

 

But now that I think about it "out loud" (as it were), maybe that's exactly what people actually do with events that are so traumatic they can't bear to remember them as they happened. It could be that Noah was so scared shitless in that moment that he's repressed the memory and invented a new one. Psychoanalysts have been observing the phenomenon for over a century.

 

The thing is, from what we saw, Noah didn't repress the trauma. He still remembers that he was helpless while Cole pointed a gun at him. (Obviously, with the scene ending there, we don't know if he remembers Cole pointing the gun in Helen and Whitney's direction.)

 

Compared to Alison's memory of how the gun came out, the big difference was that Noah remembers Cole being somewhat justified in threatening him with it. That doesn't sound like a case of Noah rewriting the memory so that it's less traumatizing.

 

Also, we've been seeing that this sort of thing happens all the time. Either Noah or Alison - or maybe both of them - have a habit of fabricating memories like a schizophrenic on an acid trip. It doesn't just happen with the traumatic experiences.

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Her going off to heal with her mother made little sense to me.  It just seemed like an odd environment for her.  

 

I don't do yoga and stuff, so I can't vouch for its veracity but it must have been good for Alison to be in an environment where she's not judged at all. I doubt that she bought the whole lingo and belief system but it must have been such a well earned rest for her. And making up with Athena, her only family left, must have helped too. 

 

Are Noah and Alison married in the present day?

 

Yes. She had a ring during her interrogation, he mentioned "wife" during his.

 

The issue I have with the portrayal of the affair is how much in turns into women want twu wuv and men want sex.  

 

Really? I thought Helen and Alison were both portrayed as very "virile" women. If anything, it was Noah who was constantly holding a candle for his true love Alison, she left Cole to be alone despite Noah being available.

Edited by Boundary
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Sarah Treem, David Simon, along with many other directors/producers, are not complete idiots. The vast majority of men who look anything like male romantic leads in serious dramas can, in fact, seduce a much larger number of women of all ages than the average schmuck. It's even more true of those with bodies that look like they could easily swim 50 laps. No suspension of disbelief is required to find Noah's (or McNulty's) sexual exploits to be fully plausible. It's not being insinuated that he is irresistible to ALL women.

Noah: My father drove a truck. My mom was a waitress. I went to college on a swimming scholarship.

Alison: A waitress?

N: Mm-hmm.

A: Wow. A lot has changed for you.

N: Yeah, it has.

It has and it hasn't. Helen didn't marry her mom, Noah married his. It's Oedipal.

Are Alison and Noah married at the end? She wears a ring, he doesn't. Noah did tell Jeffries his "wife" expected him for dinner, but Jeffries asked for "Mr. Solloway" at the door, not "your husband". Their marital status at the time of Scotty's death could have consequences in terms of allowable trial testiony under rules regarding spousal privilege.

Edited by Higgs
  • Love 1
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"One rule we did follow in the memory construction is the MORE STRESSFUL THE SITUATION, THE MORE DIVERGENT THE MEMORY."

I always thought the opposite was true (and Sarah Koenig points this out in the 1st episode of "Serial" as well)... that the more mundane a situation or day in your life, the less detailed your memory. Also explains why people can tell you exactly where they were on 9/11, when JFK died (us old folks), etc. When something stressful or tragic happens, your memory of that whole day is likely to be sharper.

 

Noah and Alison's memories are very much detailed; the provocative point is that many of these details cannot be true: the divergence.  The details of where we were when we heard about 9/11 or the Kennedy assassination is not the same order of stress as actually witnessing one of those events, or losing someone we loved dearly on that day.  That's closer to what Noah and Alison experienced at the ranch showdown.

 

I'm still agnostic about the way their memories diverged, however.  I understand that Noah's recollection cuts off at the moment Cole's gun is first introduced -- outside when he assaulted Scotty, a moment Alison's memory elides.  (Your husband fires a shot near your lover and then points the gun in his face, and you don't recall?  Or, Noah only imagined that Cole fired off a shot and had him at gunpoint?) But in Noah's memory, Helen and Whitney then leave, without returning to the house, while Noah remains behind.  If Noah is wrong about that, and Alison recalls the scene that follows in the kitchen at all correctly, we would have to believe that Noah does not recall that his wife and daughter were there, also threatened by Cole.  I don't believe it.  Yes I know: only his first wife; only his first daughter.  I still don't believe it.  

 

If Whitney and Helen were there, the best sense I can make of the gun scene in the kitchen is that it was considerably less dire, and that Alison, at most, persuaded Cole to give over the gun to her. I can almost see how she could have fabricated a far more dramatic narrative.  As she recalls it, anyway, she and Cole came straight to the ranch the instant after Alison, after two years, finally asked Cole for the first time, "Why didn't you look after Gabriel?" and Cole told her to get out of his sight.  In Alison's memory, all the events at the ranch are a continuation of that scene, and its culmination: one in which she saves the world.  

 

Alison clearly wants to see herself as someone who finally did save the day (even if too late for Gabriel and herself). It's intriguing that in Alison's savior scenes, Helen is always present: first helpless while Alison saves Helen's child, then actually thanking Alison for saving Helen's child, then being saved herself (along with another daughter).  

 

But what I really don't believe is that the two people who finally found their way to each other that day,never spoke of it again. A traumatic, cathartic, life-changing scene; something it seems to me they would be far more likely to discuss than the details of their romance -- and very soon thereafter.  And do so in a way where one person would be able to guide the other closer to the actual sequence of events: or at very least, a mutually agreed-upon true story.

  • Love 4
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Now as to how Noah of the limited imagination somehow writes the great American novel that multiple publicists should be clamoring for – I think we've all learned that his brilliance was being held back by his bitch of a wife and his ungrateful kids who made it impossible for him to reach his real potential; a.k.a. what Noah wants us to believe.

 

There is that little aspect of time.  It took a lot of time (a lot!) to be a teacher...classroom time, meetings, conferences, reading/grading papers, etc.  Suddenly he was freed from all of that...and placed into an arena that was generally quiet and free from distractions.  Also, he didn't have to deal with the daily life of a large family (for better or worse).

Edited by Former Nun
  • Love 1
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But what I really don't believe is that the two people who finally found their way to each other that day,never spoke of it again. A traumatic, cathartic, life-changing scene; something it seems to me they would be far more likely to discuss than the details of their romance -- and very soon thereafter.

Looking at the entire season, I believe they found their way to each other at the hospital, that Alison abandoned both Noah and Cole in Ep.9, and they found their way back to each other in Ep.10. (Some of this is semantics.)

In episodes in which they were being interrogated, I took their "stories" as memories that played in their minds as they were relating self-censored summaries to the detective. But without the questioning framework, I haven't the slightest idea when these memories occurred, whether it was the same night as the event, years later, or, in this particular instance, the very first time they related their own versions to each other.

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