Winner Edit vs. Loser Edit: Discuss Amongst Yourselves

[ByaNose]

I was fooled by the edit since I thought David was going to make the Final 3 & win. I know Adam had the personal story but I thought David had the Survivor experience story and I just thought he was a shoe in. Well, I was wrong about that one.

Also, I had no clue that Bret was gay until he confessed it to Zeke. Somehow, I missed all of Bret's pre interview where he mentioned it. I was pleasantly surprised to be surprised about something from the show. I was blindsided. Get it? I was blind......um, never mind. Happy Saturday everyone and see everyone back here in March. Sandra is going to win. It's so obvi. LOL!!!!

Edited December 17, 2016 by ByaNose

[peachmangosteen]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I was glad to read over this and see that all the "winner's edit" talk (which inevitably leaks over into other threads--if it didn't, I wouldn't come here and bother you if you just played nicely in your own sandbox) is about as predictive as astrology.

The editing has gone very willy nilly in recent years. There really isn't a 'winner's edit' anymore. Unless there is lol. Sometimes they still do more traditional winner's edits (like say with Jeremy in Second Chances). And back in the day the winner's edits weren't always so clear either. So basically, yea, the edit isn't really a reliable way to predict who will win or even get far. But I still find it interesting to discuss for sure.

[ByaNose]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

The editing has gone very willy nilly in recent years. There really isn't a 'winner's edit' anymore. Unless there is lol. Sometimes they still do more traditional winner's edits (like say with Jeremy in Second Chances). And back in the day the winner's edits weren't always so clear either. So basically, yea, the edit isn't really a reliable way to predict who will win or even get far. But I still find it interesting to discuss for sure.

Even with a winners edit  I still can't pick the winner. LOL!! The only person I knew who was going to win was Kim Spradlin. I think I called that by episode 3 or 4. That said, even though I talk about a winner edit I don't know how It started or if it even has. I only know that "phrase" from RHAP. I think several people get a lot of airtime with a lot of stories being told. In theory, they could all have a winners edit. 

[waving feather]

Most winner's edits means the story is told from the POV (point of view) of the winner. I really thought David was going to win but I should have known it's Adam. David had a lot of story told from his POV before the merge but considerably less after the merge. After the merge, it was all Adam all the time. But I still didn't think he was going to win because his game was such a mess.

In hindsight, Jay got a lot of airtime but less POVs than David or Adam.

[gator12]

Adam games was a mess b/c he made a dumb mistake with Taylor but after that, he flew under the radar with the people there so I don't think it was much of a mess.

Watching the first episode, who would have known paranoid, messy David would have become the Kingpin of this season.

Its funny that David, Jay and Adam games were messy at one point but I wanted them to be in the final 3 together because they played hard.

[thehepburn]

3 hours ago, waving feather said:

Most winner's edits means the story is told from the POV (point of view) of the winner.

 

No. When Fishbach talks about winner's edit, he is really talking about winner's edit as defined in Edgic. Which is a story that the editors is telling in which they slowly hint at the winner. Winner's edit is not usually the narrator edit, altho it can be. Winner's edit is never the growth/journey edit and it turned out to be true once again this season with David.

[Eolivet]

Thinking about this in greater detail, in retrospect, what should've made this winner's edit abundantly clear is the sheer amount of time spent on what I will call "the reward steal arc."  Contrast it with the matter-of-fact portrayal of the legacy advantage (given from a post-merge boot to the 3rd place finisher).

Compare this to the metric ton of airtime spent on the reward steal:

-The dramatic way it was found by Adam, similar to the importance of a hidden immunity idol

-Adam confiding to Taylor about it

-Taylor sharing it at tribal council as an argument to keep him in

-The sturm and drang over Adam not using it at the family reward

-The scene of Adam giving it to Jay, thus laying the groundwork for the hammock conversation where Adam told Jay about his mother's illness

-Jay finally using it for himself

The reward steal got more freaking airtime than some contestants!! I mean, if we were talking about 6th and 5th place players here, you get rid of all of that except Adam finding it, giving it to Jay and Jay using it. You seriously don't even need the hammock conversation (even though it was great TV). That's...30 minutes of airtime that could've been used on other things or people. It just made no sense why this stupid, stupid advantage had its own freaking subplot, unless it was laying groundwork for Adam's win.

In the future, it's going to make me more cognizant of what I will call "sidetracking" from the game -- stuff that is only tangentially related to the game, that one is kind of wondering "....why is this necessary?" It's probably context to a winner's edit.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Eolivet

[Trick Question]

I actually thought the reward steal storyline was getting so much play because the producers were patting themselves on the back for coming up with this BIG NEW TWIST.

[gator12]

2 minutes ago, Trick Question said:

I actually thought the reward steal storyline was getting so much play because the producers were patting themselves on the back for coming up with this BIG NEW TWIST.

I thought it was getting so much airtime b/c it was foreshadowing Adam's fall from the game, especially after that TC with Taylor. So how much I know

[ByaNose]

The reward didn't really have that much of an impact. Adam was outed for having it. Then Adam gave it to Jay. Then Jay used the "advantage" for himself, David & Adam and then..........................nothing. Hopefully, this twist won't be played again. Gen vs Mill was filmed before Game Changers so I'm assuming Probst and crew saw how bad a twist it turned out to be. Let's chalk it up as another Medallion of Power and have it never to be seen or heard from again.

[Guest]

I thought the reward stealing twist was really interesting, unlike the legacy advantage.  It was nice to see Adam recognize it was potentially as much a disadvantage as an advantage if he played it wrong, which you guys saw right away, too.  And then we see him play it right.  We often don't see players who are willing to do their homework and think things through and play things strategically.  I wouldn't be surprised if how he handled that advantage tactfully really helped him get the win.  

Ken had an advantage as well but unlike Adam's, his had no real strategy involved, besides being aligned with the person who found it.  And it didn't even really benefit Ken.  I haven't really thought it through but could Ken have done something with that immunity besides just burning it on himself on a night when he didn't need it?  It may have said it couldn't be played on someone else's behalf but I wonder if he could've somehow gotten others to believe it had more power, to get something he wanted?  A la Tony?  I don't know but I felt like he needed some resume points besides voting out his closest ally while running on the loyalty platform.  

[waving feather]

I think the original intent of the reward steal is just production trying to drum up drama among the castaways. Someone stealing someone else's reward, tantrums thrown, people fighting, etc. Unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, this is one of the nicest casts in 33 seasons. Everyone is civil to each other. The worst blow ups are the Michaela/Figgy, Adam/Jay/Taylor over the stolen food and David/Zeke/Bret over the crying comment. And those aren't even half bad compared to some of the arguments we had in other seasons.

I thought both Adam and Jay used the reward steal wisely. Adam choosing not to use it and got the reward anyway. Jay choosing to use it to speak to Adam and David privately to plead his case not to vote him out (even though it didn't work, his intention was correct).

[Special K]

I thought the Reward-Steal Advantage was kind of stupid at first and I thought the way Taylor tried to use it was dumb.  But both Adam and then Jay played it really well.  If Jay had been able to sway Adam and Dave to his side on that reward, which I think was his intention, it would have been successfully played.

ETA:  Or what waving feather just said.

As far as I can tell, the success of the Legacy Advantage was that it allowed us viewers to see Ken put it into and then take it out of his boot in a most alluring way. That's a win in my book!

Edited December 20, 2016 by Special K

[ByaNose]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought the reward stealing twist was really interesting, unlike the legacy advantage.  It was nice to see Adam recognize it was potentially as much a disadvantage as an advantage if he played it wrong, which you guys saw right away, too.  And then we see him play it right.  We often don't see players who are willing to do their homework and think things through and play things strategically.  I wouldn't be surprised if how he handled that advantage tactfully really helped him get the win.  

Ken had an advantage as well but unlike Adam's, his had no real strategy involved, besides being aligned with the person who found it.  And it didn't even really benefit Ken.  I haven't really thought it through but could Ken have done something with that immunity besides just burning it on himself on a night when he didn't need it?  It may have said it couldn't be played on someone else's behalf but I wonder if he could've somehow gotten others to believe it had more power, to get something he wanted?  A la Tony?  I don't know but I felt like he needed some resume points besides voting out his closest ally while running on the loyalty platform.  

It is funny how uneventful Ken pulling out the Legacy Advantage was. He pulled it out of his boots that I had never seen before (I was more shocked by that. LOL!!!) and, you saw Jessica with a look of, um, I'm not really sure....was she upset?......heartbroken?.......shocked? Anyway, he made it to the next round and nobody seemed to really care since they weren't going to cut him. Usually, he's the challenge beast you try to get rid of but no one seemed to be threatened by him.

[Rachel RSL]

33 minutes ago, ByaNose said:

you saw Jessica with a look of, um, I'm not really sure....was she upset?......heartbroken?.......shocked? 

Her reaction annoyed me. She almost seemed irritated that Ken got such a great advantage (not that he needed it) instead of her. Well, suck it up, buttercup. Pick the correct rock next time.

[anthonyd46]

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought the reward stealing twist was really interesting, unlike the legacy advantage.  It was nice to see Adam recognize it was potentially as much a disadvantage as an advantage if he played it wrong, which you guys saw right away, too.  And then we see him play it right.  We often don't see players who are willing to do their homework and think things through and play things strategically.  I wouldn't be surprised if how he handled that advantage tactfully really helped him get the win.  

Ken had an advantage as well but unlike Adam's, his had no real strategy involved, besides being aligned with the person who found it.  And it didn't even really benefit Ken.  I haven't really thought it through but could Ken have done something with that immunity besides just burning it on himself on a night when he didn't need it?  It may have said it couldn't be played on someone else's behalf but I wonder if he could've somehow gotten others to believe it had more power, to get something he wanted?  A la Tony?  I don't know but I felt like he needed some resume points besides voting out his closest ally while running on the loyalty platform.  

It said he could give it to someone else. It just said it couldn't be stolen. Wasn't much point of giving it to anyone else though it was pretty unanimous Jay was going home. If Jay had a real idol then no votes would have counted.

[anthonyd46]

On 12/17/2016 at 1:14 PM, waving feather said:

Most winner's edits means the story is told from the POV (point of view) of the winner. I really thought David was going to win but I should have known it's Adam. David had a lot of story told from his POV before the merge but considerably less after the merge. After the merge, it was all Adam all the time. But I still didn't think he was going to win because his game was such a mess.

In hindsight, Jay got a lot of airtime but less POVs than David or Adam.

Regardless of this story POV whatever, we were given that Adam was brought to the end to avoid a David win. We weren't getting anything that Adam deserved to be brought to the F3 over David. I just think for someone 10-0-0. They should get something more anything.  He shouldn't be looking so much like a chicken with his head cut off. I'm given the impression the only reason Adam won is because Ken turned on David. I shouldn't feel that way over a 10-0-0 winner. Adam just seems like #1a instead of #1. I didn't feel that way when JT won over the Final Juror (Erinn), I didn't feel that way when Cochran won over the final juror (Eddie), and I didn't feel that way when Jeremy won over the final juror (Kelley). I can't comment on Fiji I was watching then, but I didn't start looking at the edit till Gabon. I wasn't looking at the edit closely in Fiji so I dunno if Earl winning over Yau-man (the final juror) holds the same weight as this or not. Nor did I feel that Stephen, Sheri, Dawn, Spencer, Tasha, Dreamz, or Cassandra were the #1 and above winner. My main gripe is he won 10-0-0. Someone that wins 10-0-0 shouldn't feel like a 1a winner. 

A winner should leave me with the feeling that they won, because of the way they played. Take out some of Adam's arrogance, and his misplays and this just looks a lot less messy.  They left all that in for whatever reason.

Edited December 20, 2016 by anthonyd46

[ByaNose]

I swear I'm going to watch the first episode of Survivor: Game Changers really, really, really close and pick the winner due to the Winners Edit. HAHAHAHAH! I crack myself up. They could have a neon sign over the head of the winner and I would still be like, "Nah!". LOL!!!

[thehepburn]

There are ppl who think that you should be able to pick the winner from the first ep but I cry BS. I remember reading the edgic thread after the first ep of South Pacific and everyone was like - Coach is getting a good edit! - and I was like - huh? I remember noticing Sophie in her exchange with Coach but I wasnt thinking in Winner's Edit then.

For One World, Jonas was my pick from the first ep but a lot of ppl took Kim and Kim turned out to be one of the most dominant winners, including in the edit.

For Cagayan, Sarah was my pick from E1 but I switched to Woo by E2 bc of his "This is what Survivor is all about, baby! Woo!" scene. Made me realize that I had a nose for the First Juror Edit. Oh well.

For Second Chances, I thought Spencer has like a perfect ep in E1 editwise.  Made me realize that now I am falling for the Runner-Up Edit all the time. Oh well.

For MvGX, Ken was my pick based on E1 but I knew after the merge that he wasnt winning. I just didnt care enuff to pick anyone else. 

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, thehepburn said:

I remember noticing Sophie in her exchange with Coach but I wasnt thinking in Winner's Edit then.

I have only successfully guessed the winner in the earlier eps three times: Kim, Michele and Sophie. Apparently I can really suss out the 'the audience won't really get how you won and will think the person against you should've won' edits. 

[piequinn35]

On 12/12/2016 at 9:31 PM, Lingo said:

This is all very interesting. To me, it's very clear that Adam is going to win based on the edit, and I expected to see a bunch of posts saying the same thing here! I just base that on the increasing amount of airtime he's gotten in recent episodes, particularly the last few, where he's getting a lot of talking heads explaining his strategy and pointing out how he's a pivotal swing vote. But I've had a feeling he's going to win since he got his idol. I just feel he's gotten so much airtime, even aside from the drama with his mother (I was gonna write "mama drama" but that seems disrespectful!).

David's gotten a lot of airtime too, but I don't think he's getting the winner's edit. He's getting more of the Spencer or the Kelley Wentworth edit, of the dynamic player who will fall just short. (Similar to Jay, who's getting the "popular challenge beast who will just fall short" edit.) I just say this because the last few episodes haven't really focused on David's strategy.

So yeah, I really think it's Adam. Then again, I was totally shocked by Michelle's win!

You nailed it dude!

[violet and green]

Yeah. I just thought he was getting the annoying narrator edit. The chap who tells us everything we already know, in  a really annoying tone and manner, and then mercifully gets the boot when his narration job is severed.

I can't begin to tell you how bummed out I was when I twigged he was actually going to win.

[MissEwa]

8 hours ago, ByaNose said:

It is funny how uneventful Ken pulling out the Legacy Advantage was. He pulled it out of his boots that I had never seen before (I was more shocked by that. LOL!!!) and, you saw Jessica with a look of, um, I'm not really sure....was she upset?......heartbroken?.......shocked? Anyway, he made it to the next round and nobody seemed to really care since they weren't going to cut him. Usually, he's the challenge beast you try to get rid of but no one seemed to be threatened by him.

I think a big problem with the Legacy Advantage is that we never had any of it explained to us. The edit wanted to surprise us with it at TC and so we never got a talking ahead about how it actually worked (and it going to Ken, who isn't exactly a strategic or narrative gem didn't help). Was it for that TC only? Was it transferrable? Was it supposed to stay a secret or could he have told people? 

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I have only successfully guessed the winner in the earlier eps three times: Kim, Michele and Sophie. Apparently I can really suss out the 'the audience won't really get how you won and will think the person against you should've won' edits. 

I hoped for (but didn't dare expect) a Kim win and am still confused by Michele, but somehow picked Sophie halfway through the first episode. The only other winner I've picked that early was Denise (and I only 50% picked her - I knew when they showed her and Malcolm forming an alliance not long into Ep1 that one of them would win, but I wasn't sure which). I don't think there's such a thing as a 'winners edit' as such, but looking back you do quite often get those little scenes that I don't think you wouldn't get otherwise. As much as I was pulling for a Hannah win there was a bonus clip of her at one point this season where she was talking to Ken (not the sunrise one) and then had a confessional about how she was working to quietly gather the quirky oddball players onto her side, and I remembered thinking that she obviously didn't win because if she had that would have made the episode. 

[ByaNose]

I remember thinking Jeff Varner was going to win Second Chances. He was getting so much air time, so many confessionals and was narrating the show. I later realized that he was so good in the confessionals that the show had to use him because there really wasn't anyone else to use that early in the game. Yeah, I was fooled early in the the game. 

[waving feather]

2 hours ago, violet and green said:

Yeah. I just thought he was getting the annoying narrator edit. The chap who tells us everything we already know, in  a really annoying tone and manner, and then mercifully gets the boot when his narration job is severed.

I can't begin to tell you how bummed out I was when I twigged he was actually going to win.

Lol yes. He gave so many shouty annoying (and pandering to the producers) confessionals early on, I'm like no way this guy is the winner. Little did I know. 

In terms of edit (not necessarily winner's), I thought David and Jay got the most favorable edits because they were the most likable to me at the end of the season. They were the only two who got extra time shown after they were voted out, giving brief gracious speeches to the castaways left. Other players may have done so but they weren't shown.

Edited December 21, 2016 by waving feather

[anthonyd46]

2 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I think a big problem with the Legacy Advantage is that we never had any of it explained to us. The edit wanted to surprise us with it at TC and so we never got a talking ahead about how it actually worked (and it going to Ken, who isn't exactly a strategic or narrative gem didn't help). Was it for that TC only? Was it transferrable? Was it supposed to stay a secret or could he have told people? 

 

The note contradicted itself. 

 

 

So it says you have immunity at the next tribal council, yet it says the advantage cannot be stolen, but it can be given to another player at any point in the game. So why does it say any point when the first paragraph makes it sound like its null and void after the next TC?

[Rachel RSL]

5 hours ago, anthonyd46 said:

So why does it say any point when the first paragraph makes it sound like its null and void after the next TC?

It makes sense to me unless I'm misinterpreting it. Ken (or Jessica) could have given the LA to anybody at any time during the game but that person wouldn't have been allowed to open it until Day 36 and could only use it at the next TC .

[Eolivet]

16 hours ago, ByaNose said:

I swear I'm going to watch the first episode of Survivor: Game Changers really, really, really close and pick the winner due to the Winners Edit. HAHAHAHAH! I crack myself up. They could have a neon sign over the head of the winner and I would still be like, "Nah!". LOL!!!

I found myself really curious about this, as I've never picked a winner from episode 1, ever, in my entire 32 1/2 seasons of watching the show. So I took advantage of my CBS All Access and rewatched the premiere:

In retrospect, (hindsight being 20/20 and all), it's pretty darn obvious. Adam is the first millennial that Jeff talks to, who calls him "Probst," who gets to state the thesis of the season: "May the best generation win" and also confidence that his tribe will prevail. He does not get the first confessional of the game, but he does get the first one when they find...Millennial Beach, or whatever. He's not...exactly the narrator, more like the "I'm sooooo glad to be here!" guy. Zeke gets those, too, but in a personal context (I'm from Brooklyn and I take the subway! What is this wilderness thing?). Adam's are more like...the show's messages (This is awesome! Best game in the world!)

Adam also (coincidentally?) gets the first treemail for his tribe. Most of the Millennial camp first episode is focused on "The Triforce" (FigTayls + Jay) and not the nerds (Mari gets more time in that respect), but he sort of...is occasionally seen. He also gets the "OMG cyclone!" confessional ("Never before in the history of Survivor!")

Now there are a couple grains of salt to take with this -- one, that Adam was sort of a Survivor dream winner (superfan + underdog + super good personal story) -- to the point where my husband expressed skepticism that this season was actually rigged for him to win. I don't buy that myself, but an Alpha male or a stealth woman is certainly not going to get the edit of a nerdy superfan. But maybe everyone gets those "Survivor is awesome!" confessionals in the beginning, and they only use the winner's.

The other thing I will pay more attention to (again, anecdotally) are reaction shots. Adam had a lot of those. Everything that was directed at a group, the camera would somehow find his perspective. The only "top-tier" reality winner I've ever picked was Carrie Underwood, and I remember she had reaction shots all. the. time. It was like they were showing "The Show, According to Carrie" (odder, as that was a week-to-week show).

In the second and third episodes, I noticed Adam got a lot more "larger perspective" confessionals. While other contestants would get "plot-based" confessionals about the goings-on at camp or this particular vote, Adam was the first one to talk about how dangerous it was to leave a supercouple in the game. The first tribal council was his "I feel like I've crawled into my TV set!" line (which I remember finding endearing at the time). They also included footage of him being extremely good-natured about the Mari vote, while Zeke was more petulant and Hannah was more anxious. He also got the "I'm at the bottom now, and I have to fight my way back up" confessional -- all but declaring himself the underdog.

He did not mention anything personal about himself ("I've wanted to play this game since I was 9 years old!") until episode 3.

He did not mention his mother until episode 4, when he found the idol. I actually thought it was earlier, so I was (almost) pleasantly surprised.

TL; DR...next season, I'm going to look for a contestant who is spouting Survivor's messages, gets a lot of reaction shots and is chosen to offer "the larger game perspective" instead of "this episode's plot." Also, one who ironically may not even share their personal story until later episodes (I'd love to look back and see if Jeremy did the same thing on Second Chances -- I bet he did).

[ByaNose]

14 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I found myself really curious about this, as I've never picked a winner from episode 1, ever, in my entire 32 1/2 seasons of watching the show. So I took advantage of my CBS All Access and rewatched the premiere:

In retrospect, (hindsight being 20/20 and all), it's pretty darn obvious. Adam is the first millennial that Jeff talks to, who calls him "Probst," who gets to state the thesis of the season: "May the best generation win" and also confidence that his tribe will prevail. He does not get the first confessional of the game, but he does get the first one when they find...Millennial Beach, or whatever. He's not...exactly the narrator, more like the "I'm sooooo glad to be here!" guy. Zeke gets those, too, but in a personal context (I'm from Brooklyn and I take the subway! What is this wilderness thing?). Adam's are more like...the show's messages (This is awesome! Best game in the world!)

Adam also (coincidentally?) gets the first treemail for his tribe. Most of the Millennial camp first episode is focused on "The Triforce" (FigTayls + Jay) and not the nerds (Mari gets more time in that respect), but he sort of...is occasionally seen. He also gets the "OMG cyclone!" confessional ("Never before in the history of Survivor!")

Now there are a couple grains of salt to take with this -- one, that Adam was sort of a Survivor dream winner (superfan + underdog + super good personal story) -- to the point where my husband expressed skepticism that this season was actually rigged for him to win. I don't buy that myself, but an Alpha male or a stealth woman is certainly not going to get the edit of a nerdy superfan. But maybe everyone gets those "Survivor is awesome!" confessionals in the beginning, and they only use the winner's.

The other thing I will pay more attention to (again, anecdotally) are reaction shots. Adam had a lot of those. Everything that was directed at a group, the camera would somehow find his perspective. The only "top-tier" reality winner I've ever picked was Carrie Underwood, and I remember she had reaction shots all. the. time. It was like they were showing "The Show, According to Carrie" (odder, as that was a week-to-week show).

In the second and third episodes, I noticed Adam got a lot more "larger perspective" confessionals. While other contestants would get "plot-based" confessionals about the goings-on at camp or this particular vote, Adam was the first one to talk about how dangerous it was to leave a supercouple in the game. The first tribal council was his "I feel like I've crawled into my TV set!" line (which I remember finding endearing at the time). They also included footage of him being extremely good-natured about the Mari vote, while Zeke was more petulant and Hannah was more anxious. He also got the "I'm at the bottom now, and I have to fight my way back up" confessional -- all but declaring himself the underdog.

He did not mention anything personal about himself ("I've wanted to play this game since I was 9 years old!") until episode 3.

He did not mention his mother until episode 4, when he found the idol. I actually thought it was earlier, so I was (almost) pleasantly surprised.

TL; DR...next season, I'm going to look for a contestant who is spouting Survivor's messages, gets a lot of reaction shots and is chosen to offer "the larger game perspective" instead of "this episode's plot." Also, one who ironically may not even share their personal story until later episodes (I'd love to look back and see if Jeremy did the same thing on Second Chances -- I bet he did).

Great job. So there are some hints but not. Now, I don't feel as dumb that I wouldn't have automatically picked him to win. I will be looking for your analysis next season. Of course, I will do after the season ends. I wouldn't want to be spoiled. LOL!!

[thehepburn]

1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

I found myself really curious about this, as I've never picked a winner from episode 1, ever, in my entire 32 1/2 seasons of watching the show. So I took advantage of my CBS All Access and rewatched the premiere:

In retrospect, (hindsight being 20/20 and all), it's pretty darn obvious. Adam is the first millennial that Jeff talks to, who calls him "Probst," who gets to state the thesis of the season: "May the best generation win" and also confidence that his tribe will prevail. He does not get the first confessional of the game, but he does get the first one when they find...Millennial Beach, or whatever. He's not...exactly the narrator, more like the "I'm sooooo glad to be here!" guy. Zeke gets those, too, but in a personal context (I'm from Brooklyn and I take the subway! What is this wilderness thing?). Adam's are more like...the show's messages (This is awesome! Best game in the world!)

 

 

Isn't Will the one who says - May the best generation win - which happens to be the title of the episode?

 

ETA: I just checked and it was Will.

Edited December 21, 2016 by thehepburn

[Eolivet]

Thanks for catching that, @thehepburn!  I suppose I was thinking of the "speaking to the group," and forgot about the confessionals. Thanks! Now I don't think he does speak to Adam first then, but Adam addresses him and says something (I think) about different generations. OK, the one thing I'm sure of is Adam calls Jeff "Probst." That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

ETA: AHA! I remembered the confessional that I confused with Will's: it's Adam disproving the thesis of the season. He says something like "Everyone thinks millennials are lazy and don't work, but we're here to blah blah blah." Which ended up being true -- it wasn't "a war between generations," it was quite the opposite: it was a generation...collaboration that got to the end.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Eolivet

[KimberStormer]

19 hours ago, Eolivet said:

The other thing I will pay more attention to (again, anecdotally) are reaction shots. Adam had a lot of those. Everything that was directed at a group, the camera would somehow find his perspective. The only "top-tier" reality winner I've ever picked was Carrie Underwood, and I remember she had reaction shots all. the. time. It was like they were showing "The Show, According to Carrie" (odder, as that was a week-to-week show).

I'm not convinced that any of the things you've mentioned are especially winners-edity, except maybe this one.  But what I really want to mention is that I called Carrie Underwood too!  During her first audition!  I have never seen more than a minute or two of American Idol in my life, but my sister was watching her do her first audition and I said "Oh that girl wins."  I just knew it, absolutely without doubt.  I still wish I had bet some money on it somehow, because I knew it.

I do think they've gotten a lot better about editing more evenly so it's harder to guess.  The ultimate nadir was Caramoan, where it was 90% certain Cochran would win from his first "Coral Throne of Neptune" confessional and 100% certain the moment Andrea went home, which was at Final 7 -- not so much because he had such an obvious winner's edit as that nobody else had one, or much of an edit at all (except Dawn who had a 'no chance in hell' edit).  I'm glad they've done a better job of spreading the love lately.  Jeremy said it best: "any one of us could win this thing, so show all of us. Show as much as possible. I don’t care how much you show me — just show me the check afterwards."

Edited December 22, 2016 by KimberStormer

[MissEwa]

15 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

The ultimate nadir was Caramoan, where it was 90% certain Cochran would win from his first "Coral Throne of Neptune" confessional and 100% certain the moment Andrea went home, which was at Final 7

Yep, but that one was so tediously obvious it felt like it couldn't possibly be a winners edit, until that point at F7 where you realised it really couldn't be anybody else. I felt similarly about Tyson the following season - he got so much screen time throughout that I was sure it had to be a fake-out, until about that same point (maybe later - they spent a little bit of time on Ciera) when everyone left was either invisible or a buffoon. 

[peachmangosteen]

Quote

Castaways who get the villain edit aren't snowflakes.  And in fact, the one "villain" moment [Zeke] had was against the editors' snowflake that season, so of course he himself wasn't.

I completely disagree on all of this. 

Zeke was definitely one of the editors faves. We saw SO much of him. He was the narrator, or at least co-narrator with David. And he didn't get a villain edit ever imo. But even if he did, Russell got a villain edit and he was 100% the special snowflake of Production. They loved him.

Edited March 11, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[KimberStormer]

So who do we think is even in the running this time?  I feel like so many people have been invisible, partly because the green tribe is invincible in challenges, I suppose.  But like I keep forgetting Aubry is even there and she's been part of every single vote.  I feel like Brad and Hali and Troyzan and Sandra are the only people with any edit at all at this point.  Am I forgetting someone?

Sandra has been the unqualified star of the season so far and she gives out million-dollar quotes all day long, but maybe that's just a sort of Varner in Cambodia / Jeremy in SJDS kind of thing, someone who's great TV so you gotta use them while they're there.

[Hera]

It's easier for me to think about it in terms of who's been invisible: Ozzy, Cirie, Andrea, and Zeke. I don't think any of them are winning this season. Troyzan and Sarah are the only ones on their tribe who have been getting airtime (especially Troyzan), which makes me think they'll go far. I think it's notable that they got airtime during this episode, where they had nothing to do with the vote. Clearly there's going to be a larger story about the two of them working together or betraying each other.

Sierra is the only one on her tribe who hasn't gotten much airtime, though I don't think the attention Debbie has received means she's in the running to win. I also don't think Tai will either. I can't quite put my finger on why (aside from the fact that I don't think he's a very good player generally). There's something about the stuff they show him saying—they don't sound like winner's sound bites. That leaves Brad and Hali as contenders, though neither one seems to be lighting it up in terms of number of confessionals.

Aubry and Michaela have been pretty invisible on their tribe (until this episode for Michaela), and I don't think they've shown much of Jeff Varner either. Sandra's edit has screamed, "This is the story of how The Queen gets taken down" to me, so I don't think she wins either. Basically, I think this is the tribe of cannon fodder.

So I guess by process of elimination, I think the winner is one of Sarah, Troyzan, Brad, or Hali, with a slight bias towards Sarah and Troyzan.

[peachmangosteen]

I don't think Ozzy's been invisible. I guess they're showing him less than I figured they would because he's such a fave of Production and the audience, but I feel like we've seen/heard a fair amount from him.

I got a different take from the Troyzan/Sarah scene than it seems most others did. It gave me serious, "Sarah is going to get booted spectacularly, just like she did last time" vibes. She is coming off so smug and to me it feels like the editing is setting her up to look like an idiot. 

But really at this point I don't have any guess as to who's going to win. I do believe it will end up being someone from Original Nuku though. ETA: The only Original Mana I could see winning is Hali. Or honestly Sandra, but that's probably just wishful thinking!

Edited March 30, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I got a different take from the Troyzan/Sarah scene than it seems most others did. It gave me serious, "Sarah is going to get booted spectacularly, just like she did last time" vibes. She is coming off so smug and to me it feels like the editing is setting her up to look like an idiot. 

I never got smug from Sarah so much as desperate to not be taken for a fool again like she was with Tony.  I took that scene with Troyzan to mean that they'll probably be partners going forward.  Whether it leads either one to a win or not is anyone's guess, but that did feel like they're here for the long-term.

[SVNBob]

Now that I think about the season thus far in the terms of this line of discussion (or at least how I think in terms of this line of discussion), there seems to be a distinct lack of long-term Narrators.  It's been a series of different Spotlights.

However, given the nature of this season, that kind of fits.  We know all these players, so we don't need them to spell as much out for us in the long term.

[MissEwa]

On 31 March 2017 at 9:26 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I got a different take from the Troyzan/Sarah scene than it seems most others did. It gave me serious, "Sarah is going to get booted spectacularly, just like she did last time" vibes. She is coming off so smug and to me it feels like the editing is setting her up to look like an idiot. 

This is my feeling too. She's getting some airtime but the only bits I remember are her talking about her 'phenomenal' social game and how good she is at lying to people, with absolutely nothing to back up either claim. I almost expect her to go in the exact same way she did last time - thinking she's the kingpin and being voted out unanimously. 

Of @Hera's other three picks - I could see a Troyzan win (I wouldn't like a Troyzan win, at all, but based on the edit, it doesn't seem unlikely). Brad's getting a much kinder edit this season than he did last time, which bodes well for him - I suspect if he goes all the way he doesn't do so as a goat. Hali is an interesting case - she's getting a reasonable edit AND she's got that Amber/Parvati thing where she's come into the game as a bit of a 'why did they even cast her?' element. I can see her sliding under the radar as a non-threat all the way to F3.

[simplyme]

10 hours ago, MissEwa said:

This is my feeling too. She's getting some airtime but the only bits I remember are her talking about her 'phenomenal' social game and how good she is at lying to people, with absolutely nothing to back up either claim. I almost expect her to go in the exact same way she did last time - thinking she's the kingpin and being voted out unanimously. 

Or she could be hitched to Troyzan as a duo and make it pretty far, but only as a goat. I feel like her edit set up the two of them working together and also showed how abrasive her personality can be. Whereas Troy, as much as he ended up annoying me when he lost his stuff his first season, has both a social and physical game. Of course, I also thought Zeke would do well last season, so my predictive ability works best in hindsight. :P

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

That whole tribe is basically invisible and it has two absolutely huge Survivor characters in Cirie and Ozzy.  It's too functional and athletic to get much attention. 

This made me think about BBB2 because the Beauty tribe was too functional and athletic to get much attention and yet they did, which was precisely why I thought very early on that Michele (or Julia) would be the winner. 

I actually disagree though that Cirie and Ozzy are practically invisible, but considering they are such popular characters that might not mean anything. I do think Zeke and Andrea are pretty invisible so I would be surprised if they won.

Edited April 3, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[KimberStormer]

I sort of feel like, with Sandra gone, maybe the real edit starts tonight.  They wanted to get as much of her as possible, a decision I support, but maybe now the rest of the gang will be less invisible.  We'll see?

[Star Aristille]

Even though the season's over, it was clear to me that Sarah was getting the winner's edit.  It started for her when she was still on Tavua, I think, and was more subtle at that point.  But it really seemed to kick into gear post-merge, at least from Debbie's boot episode and on.

It was probably the most aggressive winner's edit for a female winner since, like, Kim from ten seasons before her.

[simplyme]

8 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

It was probably the most aggressive winner's edit for a female winner since, like, Kim from ten seasons before her.

To be fair, though, how aggressive a game people (especially women) are able to play depends on the cast, and I think that gets reflected in the edit. Returning player seasons tend to have more aggressive players cast to begin with, and women don't seem to be as likely to immediately be voted out for being too threatening if they don't play dead strategically the first half of the game as they are during new player seasons. 

In recent returning player seasons, targets are chosen based on threat level and alliances, not on what they bring to the tribe. So strong males are more likely to go home earlier than they seem to be in new player seasons, where the focus at first is on the tribe winning immunity. Tribes focused on winning immunity often prioritize keeping the men in TC votes and that can give the men an outsized voice in who goes home. The women who get kept around around are often the ones who cozy up and play the least aggressively.

Obviously, there are exceptions to this. But it's certainly something I've noted happens fairly often as a dynamic in new player seasons, either because of the game structure or the personality types casting favors.

I'd note that the two most aggressive female edits mentioned happened during slightly abnormal seasons (if there is such a thing as a normal season): one a returning player season and one where the tribes were initially separated by gender.

Edited June 29, 2017 by simplyme
Grammar and clarity

[MissEwa]

17 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Even though the season's over, it was clear to me that Sarah was getting the winner's edit.  It started for her when she was still on Tavua, I think, and was more subtle at that point.  But it really seemed to kick into gear post-merge, at least from Debbie's boot episode and on.

It was probably the most aggressive winner's edit for a female winner since, like, Kim from ten seasons before her.

I felt like it could have gone either way for Sarah - it was either a winners edit or a delusional buffoon edit. There were a few early confessionals where she talked up her game before she'd even done anything that I remember tweeting with an 'yeah, okay, if you say so...' and later the comments about her amazing superior powers of car-registration-expiration and advantage-spotting, which felt like they walked that line. I spoiled myself not long after so I knew she won but until then I half-expected her to go down in a blaze of dimmness. 

[peachmangosteen]

Even though they're not really as much of a factor anymore in determining winners, I'm always still interested in the confessional counts.

Ashley: 13
Joe: 14
Devon: 8
Desi: 7
Jessica: 15
Lauren: 13
Ben: 11
Cole: 10
Mike: 8
Ryan: 24
Chrissy: 15
JP: 4

Ryan having 9 more confessionals then the next two players is ridiculous. He's not that fucking interesting!

4 of the highest counts are women, which is astonishing to me. 

Ali actually had the second highest count. I'm so confused by that lol. It's not like she was really saying/doing anything that Production is a big fan of, like with Ryan.

[Nashville]

50 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Even though they're not really as much of a factor anymore in determining winners, I'm always still interested in the confessional counts.

Ashley: 13
Joe: 14
Devon: 8
Desi: 7
Jessica: 15
Lauren: 13
Ben: 11
Cole: 10
Mike: 8
Ryan: 24
Chrissy: 15
JP: 4

Ryan having 9 more confessionals then the next two players is ridiculous. He's not that fucking interesting!

4 of the highest counts are women, which is astonishing to me. 

Ali actually had the second highest count. I'm so confused by that lol. It's not like she was really saying/doing anything that Production is a big fan of, like with Ryan.

Maybe most of the rest just give really bad Talking Head.  ;>

[Wings]

43 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Maybe most of the rest just give really bad Talking Head.  ;>

I believe this. They are editing a show for entertainment first.  The talking heads have to contain something interesting or witty.  I am not into doing the research but it is likely that some winners have a low TH tally. 

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Ali actually had the second highest count. I'm so confused by that lol. It's not like she was really saying/doing anything that Production is a big fan of, like with Ryan.

Probst has already said he wants to see Ali back again, too. I think she was a player they liked and someone they thought was a good narrator, even if her actual game didn't go that great for her (which was probably partially the swap's fault).

Personally, I'm seeing this right now as Ryan getting a narrator edit and Ben getting the winner's edit, but lots to go yet.