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mariah23
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The singer at the piano bar eavesdropping and then singing "You lie" to him as he was leaving with Doris Day was cheesy but cute.

 

That's one of my favorite scenes.  That's the first thing that comes to mind when I think about Pillow Talk.  

 

My favorite Doris Day movie is That Touch of Mink.  I just adore Cary Grant in just about anything, and he and Doris had great chemistry.  Plus, I love that scene where the guy (Tony Randall?) asks the secretary to take off her glasses and take her hair down and is disappointed she doesn't suddenly look glamorous just like he's scene in the movies.   I love the willingness to play with cliches.

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I agree about Hudson. I wouldn't say he was vapid or lacking all charm, but he always seemed just a bit too Ken for me.

 

Mostly I agree but the one Doris movie in which I think he breaks out of the Ken mold and shows real comedic chops is Send Me No Flowers. He's quite convincing and funny as a 24-carat gold neurotic. Even Tony Randall comes off more well-adjusted than he does!

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My favorite Doris Day movie is That Touch of Mink.  I just adore Cary Grant in just about anything, and he and Doris had great chemistry.  Plus, I love that scene where the guy (Tony Randall?) asks the secretary to take off her glasses and take her hair down and is disappointed she doesn't suddenly look glamorous just like he's scene in the movies.   I love the willingness to play with cliches.

That  would be the much abused (in that movie) Gig Young.  This is another movie that has a great supporting cast, Audrey Meadows, John Astin, John Fielder, Dick Sargeant, Richard Deacon.  Lots of "Hey, It's that guy!" characters.

 

And the clothes, love the scene at Bergdorf's.  I'm always disappointed that she chose the beige color for the mink coat.  (not that I would want a mink coat, but the other colors are so rich)

Edited by elle
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Of related interest, just stumbled across this YouTube of the opening twenty minutes of the 1970 Oscars. It begins with a historical montage of actors of the past and near-present of 1970 (including many of our favorites, Doris among them) arriving on the red carpet, sitting at their tables, etc.--working its way chronologically from the earliest footage forward. (Then, there's a Bob Hope monologue which is…interesting.)

 

http://youtu.be/hEnAY6tqSBA

Edited by Milburn Stone
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That  would be the much abused (in that movie) Gig Young.  

 

and Young at Heart, and Desk Set, and Teacher's Pet... 

 

I feel kind of bad for him. It's not like another actor was going to beat out Cary Grant, Frank Sinatra, Spencer Tracy and Clark Gable. At least Tony Randall looked like he was enjoying himself when he played that part. 

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I'd love to join in the convo,--I love old movies,  but I'm afraid of doing a spoiler by accident.  How do you all decide what's a spoiler?

 

It's pretty much a judgment call. If it's some twist that would ruin the film for someone who'd never seen it--I don't know, somebody dying who you'd never expect to die--you probably ought to spoiler-tag it. With lesser stuff, most posters seem to find it not necessary to do. (My own feeling, which is that spoiler tags should never be required on a thread like this, is irrelevant.) I suggest you go ahead and participate in the conversation using your judgment based on this guidance, and if you make a mistake, someone will point it out to you, you'll learn from it, and it won't be the end of the world.

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I'd be more concerned about twists from lesser known movies, like [what happened to the doctor in A Matter of Life or Death]. It's not a big enough cultural reference for everyone to know it, and the movie is much more fun if it comes as a surprise.

 

Maybe a good rule of thumb is if it would have been less fun it you'd known ahead of time?

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I'm sorry! When I created the thread, I opted for the No Spoiler rule. I've spoiled some movies to my friends and they didn't like that. I know these movies have been out for years, but some people still get miffed if the movie was spoiled for them. I just wanted to cover all bases!

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We can always change it.  I would vote - wholeheartedly - for making this a "regular" thread, since I think it's silly to spoiler tag something that has not only already aired on television, but been around for 80 years, and I think excessive spoiler tags make a post/thread annoying to read.  But having said that, with our practice of only spoiler-tagging major plot points, we haven't had excessive spoiler tags so that hasn't been an issue. 

 

(Of course, there have also been posts in which people seem to be speaking in a deliberately vague manner to avoid the "spoiler or not?" issue altogether.  And obviously at least one person who hasn't joined in the discussion for fear of not handling the spoiler issue properly.)

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We can always change it.  I would vote - wholeheartedly - for making this a "regular" thread, since I think it's silly to spoiler tag something that has not only already aired on television, but been around for 80 years...

 

+1

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Though I've been able to live with the thread as is, I too would prefer, on the whole, to have this thread assume that "spoiler" is not a relevant concept for classic old movies. My impression is that those who seek out this thread are not, on the whole, those who shrink from knowing the stories of older movies.

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To make an analogy, the death of Romeo and Juliet packs a wallop for those who see or read the play for the very first time, but it is generally accepted by society that we are free to discuss Shakespeare without the need for spoiler alerts.

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I've used one spoiler tag in my numerous postings here, for the very end of San Francisco. Even at my advanced age, there are many old films I'm not very familiar with, and I would appreciate not being spoiled.  Of course, the sort of It Was His Sled stuff need not be sheltered behind a tag. But I appreciate the option. 

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I think this thread has been very good about it so far. I know Dave is working on a more cohesive site wide spoiler policy, but this is more of a special case. I think for some of the more 'obscure' classic movies, the big twists could carry a spoiler. I do agree that those who come into this thread will not be too sensitive about being spoiled for movies 50+ years ago. Just ping/PM me for help. I could also pin a post if you guys have a clear idea of what you want in this thread.

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 I could also pin a post if you guys have a clear idea of what you want in this thread.

Athena, I was just about to ask if this was something that we could do, that is have a pinned post that states that this thread does not use spoilers.  Then as I am typing this I also realize that the need to be considerate to those just falling in love with this channel and old movies. I know that there are those out there who have not seen "Witness for the Prosecution" or "Stage Fright" and for them maybe we should add the warning that plot points may be revealed in a conversation.

 

For example, I had a question for those who read the source book for "Suspicion", Francis Iles's novel Before the Fact.  Both would have twists that are spoilers, so should I simply add - *spoiler ahead* before asking the question?  (which is, I thought in the book Lina sent a letter to her mother or friend while she was sick in case she didn't recover from the flu.)

 

Watching "Summer Stock", I think Judy Garland and Gene Kelly made the best team.  Watching Judy stumble about trying to learn the dance, I thought of how good of a dance she was to make it look like she couldn't dance.  Sad that this was their last pairing.

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For TV series, once an episode has aired there is no need to spoiler tag any discussion of it; anyone who isn't caught up on the series knows to either avoid the thread until they have or risk being spoiled.  So how about not needing to spoiler tag discussion of a movie once it airs on TCM, but if we're using discussion of such a film as a jumping off point to compare/contrast another film (a remake, a similar storyline, other works of the director, writer or actors, etc.) that hasn't been shown on TCM, then we should spoiler tag major plot twists?

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I think I'm changing my "vote." I have been on the side that spoiler-tags in this thread are ridiculous--and I still feel that way. However, if there are even a few posters who appreciate certain plot points being spoiler-tagged--and there do seem to be a few--then I think their innocence should be protected. How I feel right now is, I'm willing to put up with the pain in the ass that thoroughly unnecessary (IMO) spoiler-tags represent if it means others will enjoy the thread more.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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I watched Summer Stock for the first time today. It was perhaps a little overly long and Judy sang a bit too loudly in parts while Gene could have stood to sing a little more loudly but overall, I really enjoyed it. I was worried at first like, is this whole movie going to be singing about tractors and farming but once Gene showed up the movie really kicked in. In the first 30 minutes I was nervous that everyone was going to be an asshole other than Judy but tension also went away when they bought her a new tractor. The real positives for me are that now I can genuinely say I like a Judy Garland movie that isn't In the Good Old Summertime (to review, I've also seen Meet Me in St. Louis, The Harvey Girls, and Easter Parade recently and had mixed thoughts) and I can finally say that there is a movie where Gene Kelly has real chemistry with his romantic lead. They're well-paired as dance partners and as scene partners. Phil Silvers grates though. There's part of me that wonders if I should be offended, like, is he the 50's version of a "wigger"?

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If you enjoyed the chemistry between Gene and Judy in Summer Stock, try to see For Me and My Gal (his first movie) the next time they show it. The gender assumptions and the politics are kind of ucky, and you'll have to ignore George Murphy some, but the two of them have chemistry to spare and both of them are ridiculously young and gorgeous.

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Gene and Judy were a good match, both in the way they sang and the way they danced -- whereas with Fred (whom I do prefer in general) she didn't really work out. But my favorite pairing for Gene Kelly is Rita Hayworth; when the two of them plus Phil Silvers get going in their trio in Cover Girl, it's just a joyous few minutes.

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But my favorite pairing for Gene Kelly is Rita Hayworth; when the two of them plus Phil Silvers get going in their trio in Cover Girl, it's just a joyous few minutes.

I really need to rewatch Cover Girl. I'm planning to eventually review all of these movies on my blog. I think I'd probably find a lot of the sequences self indulgent on a repeat viewing and I don't think there's ever going to be a time when I don't find the fashion show or Ziegfeld Follies style posing sequences (like when they do all the magazine covers) boring but I remember enjoying that movie. And Long Ago and Far Away is such a dreamy song. I love the Jo Stafford version. I think height helps with Judy and Gene. Their physiques are well-matched which is important for dancers. 

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If you enjoyed the chemistry between Gene and Judy in Summer Stock, 

And I will finish this sentence by saying that one should see "The Pirate"!  I've always enjoyed the movie because it seems as if both Gene and Judy are having fun. Yes, it is silly, but is is supposed to be silly.

 

Phil Silvers grates though

Phil Silvers is a comedian you either like or hate, you can hate him but like him in *one* movie or not like him at all.  He was the original "Sergeant Bilko" on his TV Show in the 50s.

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Summer Stock is pretty slight, but if it only had "Get Happy" it would be of historic value.  It has more--Kelly and Garland together, Kelly's dance on newspaper.

Rita Hayworth was a lovely, very watchable dancer, and she and Kelly are well paired.  Tonight and Every Night is a vehicle of hers I like a lot, and it features the brilliant dancer Marc Platt, who died recently.

 

Eli Wallach is a true loss.  A long life and career to be sure, and an extremely versatile actor. These indelible "Character actors," a term I've always struggled with, are indeed a disappearing breed.

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Wallach is kind of a dying breed. He may in fact, be the last guy out. Great actor who could play likable and bad ass creep with equal aplomb. A New York actor through and through.  98 years is a great ride. 

 

Are there any more Method actors left?  Not counting the more modern day Method -like ones like Pacino and DeNiro.

 

Re Phil Silvers, the guy was tailor made for TV in its infancy. Where anything goes, no holds barred and let's try something new were what made that era so "golden" Bilko is such a funny series and so many of the actors later became the voices of cartoon characters,Top Cat in particular.  I didn't love him but he was good.

Edited by prican58
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Summer Stock is pretty slight, but if it only had "Get Happy" it would be of historic value. 

 

The movie has many pleasures, but to me the greatest of them all--and far more than slight--is the gorgeous Warren-Gordon song "Friendly Star," Garland's performance of it, and Charles Walters' direction of it.

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And boy is Kathryn Grayson screechie.

You know how everybody has (at least) one major star that they can't stand? Kathryn Grayson is mine. She must have had something to appeal to audiences in the heyday of MGM musicals, but I'm damned if I can see it in her case. Couldn't act, cutesie-poo mannerisms, and a real nothing vocally. (I'm an opera fan and I like lyric-coloratura sopranos, if they're good...) Admittedly my viewpoint was spoiled by my first encounter with her, onstage in Chicago in the national tour of my then-favorite musical Camelot. Unforgivable in every way, and still one of the most unprofessional "professional" performances I've ever seen.

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The movie has many pleasures, but to me the greatest of them all--and far more than slight--is the gorgeous Warren-Gordon song "Friendly Star," Garland's performance of it, and Charles Walters' direction of it.

I loved the challenge dance. It's rare that someone who isn't a dancer pulls focus from Gene Kelly, but Judy did a great job.

You know how everybody has (at least) one major star that they can't stand? Kathryn Grayson is mine. She must have had something to appeal to audiences in the heyday of MGM musicals, but I'm damned if I can see it in her case. Couldn't act, cutesie-poo mannerisms, and a real nothing vocally. (I'm an opera fan and I like lyric-coloratura sopranos, if they're good...) Admittedly my viewpoint was spoiled by my first encounter with her, onstage in Chicago in the national tour of my then-favorite musical Camelot. Unforgivable in every way, and still one of the most unprofessional "professional" performances I've ever seen.

I liked her in Kiss Me, Kate. I'll admit, a lot of her work left me untouched (particularly Show Boat and Anchors Away), but I've seen an interview where she talked about how embarassed she was by her turn in Ziegfeld Follies, which I think turned out to be written by the producer, so I cut her a lot of slack.

The Big Star I don't get is Ruby Keeler. She wasn't particularly beautiful or talented (JMO, of course), so I've never gotten what made her a star. I think it may have been some era-specific girl next door thing, but it's always eluded me. I feel bad for the awful time she had personally (Al Jolson: Not A Nice Man, and the guy she left for him was apparently less nice than that), but I don't get it. Usually, the movies she was in weren't good enough for her to hurt, but Shanghai Lil was an amazing (if racially insensitive) number in Footlight Parade before she showed up.

ETA:

Admittedly my viewpoint was spoiled by my first encounter with her, onstage in Chicago in the national tour of my then-favorite musical Camelot. Unforgivable in every way, and still one of the most unprofessional "professional" performances I've ever seen.

I really need to hear this story, if you can tell it.

Edited by Julia
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You know how everybody has (at least) one major star that they can't stand? Kathryn Grayson is mine. She must have had something to appeal to audiences in the heyday of MGM musicals, but I'm damned if I can see it in her case.

 

She had two major assets. If you know what I mean. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

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[Kathryn Grayson] had two major assets. If you know what I mean. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

Ah well, I'm not the guy to notice such things, so there you are.

 

I really need to hear this story [Grayson in Camelot], if you can tell it.

All right; those not interested in ancient grudges may skip this whole paragraph. I knew the published script, score, and recording well by the time Camelot came to Chicago, and most of the production lived up to my hopes. But Kathryn Grayson made no gesture at characterization or interaction: she addressed herself straight to the audience. Further: she had demanded changes to the music to "suit her voice": a rewritten vocal line late in "Simple Joys of Maidenhood," complete with pause for cadenza with flute obbligato; more of the same at the end of "Lusty Month of May"; and an all-new madrigal in "What Do the Simple Folk Do." Further: the dance before "Month of May" had been cut so as not to detract from her singing of the song. And the "dance" stanza of "Simple Folk" -- the whole last third of the song -- had been eliminated (presumably she didn't wish to do the few simple steps involved). And she conducted visibly through all the musical numbers, waving a forearm to keep the conductor in line. There, I think that about covers it.

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Ooo, very dishy. Are you a big theatre person, Rinaldo? I've started a new board to discuss various stage productions and musicals in general if you'd like to take a look because I feel like the movie musical discussion can start to branch into more of a theatre discussion.

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Ooo, very dishy. Are you a big theatre person, Rinaldo? I've started a new board to discuss various stage productions and musicals in general if you'd like to take a look because I feel like the movie musical discussion can start to branch into more of a theatre discussion.

 

Following it!

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I've posted there now too. My Grayson paragraph was pushing the boundaries, I guess (though in response to a discussion of her film work), and as far afield as I would go here. To go to a more positive place, I do like her fellow performers in those movies: Howard Keel, Ann Miller, Tommy Rall, and many more. (When that "given this movie star, name your favorite performance" thing was going around Facebook last year, I was given Ava Gardner, and I discovered that my favorite work of hers was in Show Boat. I've belatedly realized that she was really lovely in that.)

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I saw Another Man's Poison with Bette Davis as it was part of yesterday's theme of British movies with American stars.   This was unfortunately her follow-up to All About Eve.  It's a mystery/thriller based on a British play, from an era when such things could have long profitable lives on the stage.  The twists and turns and plot mechanics are sort of fun, and Bette gives it her all, which is maybe too much. She and Gary Merrill display some of the same chemistry they had in Eve, even if they are antagonists all the way through.  It's stagy, short, and briskly paced, but the print TCM showed is distressingly dark and not in the best shape.  Still. a reasonable, untaxing time killer, if you're looking for one. And Bette is not dull.

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I go back and forth on the spoiler thing.  But on the whole I think I'm kind of in favor of non-spoiling.  You do know that there are people who are going to be reading this who really and truly do NOT know that It Was His Sled and I would never want to ruin that for young and emerging TCM fans.

 

And in keeping with that, I just want to rave about The Grand Maneuver, which I just finished watching off the the DVR - it was part of Rene Clair day over the weekend, one of his later films (1955 - and in color!) and one I'd never seen.  It was so amazingly great that I'm just shocked I never saw it before.  It doesn't show much on American TV and it's not available on DVD in region one with English subtitles, at least as far as I can see.  But  next time this shows up on TCM do NOT miss it.  It looks like it's going to be a kind of predictable romantic comedy, where Parisian divorcee Michelle Morgan has to choose between two men in small-town France, one a nice-guy businessman( Jean Desailly) with two sisters who are going to do everything in their power to make sure he does NOT marry a divorced social outcast, and the other a dashing dragoon (played by the obvious leading man, Gerard Phillipe) who has bet his regiment that he will sleep with her before the regiment goes out on the Grand Maneuvers.  Of course the hunter is captured by the game, as you would expect - but then, boy oh boy, does this ever not go the way I was expecting.  Great script, great performances and great direction by Clair.

 

Edited to add: if you can get Watch TCM online or if you have the app, it is available that way for a while anyway.  Do it!

Edited by ratgirlagogo
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I go back and forth on the spoiler thing.  But on the whole I think I'm kind of in favor of non-spoiling.  You do know that there are people who are going to be reading this who really and truly do NOT know that It Was His Sled and I would never want to ruin that for young and emerging TCM fans.

I guess I fall into that category and even though I generally don't give a carp about spoilers, you never know when one can ruin a movie so I appreciate the consideration.

 

Random question: Has TCM always been showing all these French films? I feel like there's been a definite uptick in the number of French movies.

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Random question: Has TCM always been showing all these French films? I feel like there's been a definite uptick in the number of French movies.

Well, with the Clair movies, he did have a career in Hollywood. But you're right that that is not what they were showing.  I think they ARE showing more non-Hollywood films, like the British films yesterday.  I suppose it goes along with showing more recent films as well.  In both cases I don't know what I feel about it. I love the old Hollywood films and I hate to see them pushed out when there are only so many hours in a week.  On the other hand Turner has the broadcast rights to so much wonderful stuff that just does NOT play on any other channel that I just wish they'd start Turner International Classics channel and show foreign/arthouse films on it.  Plus of course the Turner B-Movie Dreck Channel I keep asking for :)

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Plus of course the Turner B-Movie Dreck Channel I keep asking for :)

 

I would like that, too. There's something anthropological about Old B-Movie Dreck. I sometimes feel I'm learning more about the society and culture of the era than I can learn from the excellent films, which are by definition exceptional. 

Edited by Milburn Stone
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I actually love British films of the 30's and beyond. There is just a certain feel about them. Often there is not a lot of glitz and aw shucks like in American films. I really like the 1950- 1960's stuff starring Richard Harris, Dirk Bogarde, Tom Courtenay, Albert Finney etc with it's working class themes.

 

I have no problem with TCM showing foreign films.I totally loved  Bitter Rice when it aired 1-2 years ago.  It would be great to have people like Ian MacKellan,Derek Jacobi, Patrick Stewart and even Helen Mirren be Guest Programmers and have them discuss British cinema. Yeah, they are mostly stage actors but they know a thing or two about films and I'm sure they grew up watching some older classic films from the UK. In fact I think it would be amazing to have a 1-2 hour panel with them and talk about film. TCM did something similar a few years ago with former child actors (Margaret O'Brian, Jane Withers, Dickie Moore and others). 

 

Caught the last 30 mins of Guys and Dolls this afternoon. I really do scratch my head over the casting and I'm not sure Runyonesque dialog comes across too well but it is fascinating. I wonder how Sinatra felt about Brando singing Luck Be a Lady?

 

Brando. You can never take your eyes off him in just about any film he ever made. At least I can't.

 

BTW have any French films with Alain Delon and JeanPaul Belmondo been aired recently?.  Has anyone ever seen Borsalino starring those two? I saw it in a French class in high school and was impressed. 

Edited by prican58
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I actually love British films of the 30's and beyond. There is just a certain feel about them. Often there is not a lot of glitz and aw shucks like in American films. I really like the 1950- 1960's stuff starring Richard Harris, Dirk Bogarde, Tom Courtenay, Albert Finney etc with it's working class themes.

 

I have no problem with TCM showing foreign films.I totally loved  Bitter Rice when it aired 1-2 years ago.  It would be great to have people like Ian MacKellan,Derek Jacobi, Patrick Stewart and even Helen Mirren be Guest Programmers and have them discuss British cinema. Yeah, they are mostly stage actors but they know a thing or two about films and I'm sure they grew up watching some older classic films from the UK. In fact I think it would be amazing to have a 1-2 hour panel with them and talk about film. TCM did something similar a few years ago with former child actors (Margaret O'Brian, Jane Withers, Dickie Moore and others). 

 

Caught the last 30 mins of Guys and Dolls this afternoon. I really do scratch my head over the casting and I'm not sure Runyonesque dialog comes across too well but it is fascinating. I wonder how Sinatra felt about Brando singing Luck Be a Lady?

 

Brando. You can never take your eyes off him in just about any film he ever made. At least I can't.

 

I also love British films from the 30's . I even saw the silent Hitchcock film with Novello in it, and I love The 39 Steps. Robert Donat was one of my major classic movie star crushes.

 

I've only seen a handful of classic Brando films, all the big ones, but I adored him in Guys and Dolls. I even have his Luck be Lady on my iTunes. He's not the best singer, but his charisma and smoothness through the number made it memorable. I also thought he was playing someone likeable, though I remember liking his character in On the Waterfront too, but I got his appeal most in Guys and Dolls.

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Athena, Brando is just so much of a presence on film. Dude looked amazing in the black suit during the sewer scenes. yes, i did not cringe at his singing. I don't think he embarrassed himself.

 

Waterfront is my personal fave of his films and will watch it any time, any where. He is able to convey that sweetness in Terry and made me feel sad that he couldn't have a better life. His scenes with Eva Marie Saint are some of the most touching and tender moments ever on screen. Their moments are absolutely beautiful.

He also did a great job in The Young Lions. Not your typical Nazi portrayal. Such an eager and loyal soldier who believed he was fighting for the greater good. When he finally realizes that such was not the case he just looks lost.

 

I love Brando.  

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The very first movie I ever saw Brando in (and it was actually his movie debut) was "The Men" which was about paraplegic Korean War veterans.  Jack Webb was also in it.  It was about their rehabilitation in the hospital and Brando's relationship with his family and girlfriend.  

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